I read in todays Irish News that Mc Hugh wants a 36 team Ulster club championship, with the county champions entering the compo with a home draw in the third round. The beaten finalists entering the compo in the second round and the beaten club semi finalists entering in the first round. This means a 36 club competition starting in September. To meet this fixture demand he wants the football and hurling intercounty championships finished in August to give more time to club football. He argues that this will give more emphasis to club football because of the amount of teams who can play in the provincial series as well as the amount of new revenue that it can generate for clubs. He also wants club football to start in Feb, alternating each Sunday with county fixtures.
The club championship idea is certainly a novel idea and one that could be implimented if the will was there. Would it demeen the provincial club championship, i don't think so, it would make it IMO opinion more attrcative and valuable.
The idea of club and county alternating each week from Feb onwards with league games is a good idea alos but not practical. Alot of club pitches would not be playable around this time of the year.
Would the suits in Croker agree to finishing the county claendar in August, are financial reasons the main reason for not doing so.
Overall sound suggestions that would could get a good debate going around a genuine concern for many gaels, at a time when people fear how our club structure could survive in these challenging times of club verses county.
QuoteHe argues that this will give more emphasis to club football because of the amount of teams who can play in the provincial series as well as the amount of new revenue that it can generate for clubs. He also wants club football to start in Feb, alternating each Sunday with county fixtures.
So he wants the club season to run from Feb to Dec? And alternating the club with county fixtures is complete nonsense, how would a county team get any momentum if it only had players every second week? And what about IC players getting a break, or dual code clubs? Not to mention the fact that bad weather or a bereavement at a club would cause fixture chaos.
Quote from: Zulu on January 12, 2010, 11:09:03 AM
QuoteHe argues that this will give more emphasis to club football because of the amount of teams who can play in the provincial series as well as the amount of new revenue that it can generate for clubs. He also wants club football to start in Feb, alternating each Sunday with county fixtures.
So he wants the club season to run from Feb to Dec? And alternating the club with county fixtures is complete nonsense, how would a county team get any momentum if it only had players every second week? And what about IC players getting a break, or dual code clubs? Not to mention the fact that bad weather or a bereavement at a club would cause fixture chaos.
True but more eveidence again of how we're moving towards the semi-professional and near professional model at IC sooner rather than later. Something has to give.
Perhaps the idea of starting the club scene in Feb in unreasonable, but his main thrust is about greater provision for club games and certainly his suggestion of the provincial club series being available to 36 teams is viable
Do most county boards not struggle with the fixtures they already have ?
Ha ha, they do, but the provincial championship of 36 teams would be run by the provincial council, therefore ot would get played.
But what about bad weather, or the fact that some counties struggle to get their championships played off, what about teh IC players who are playing in the AI semi-finals or final? We need to stop looking on the IC scene as the big bad wolf and instead look at club and IC structures as a whole. The problem as I see it, is that there is no seperstion for anyone from any teams and therefore good players are being pulled from pillar to post with the added problem that they are screwing up everyone else's competitions.
Take McHugh's suggestion for example, a minor footballer has just finished playing minor, U21 and senior for his club and minor for his county all summer and is back in school preparing for his school football and leaving cert. He is now expected to continue to train for his club and travel all over the province on the weekend. Or what about the university footballer, he has a hectic summer behind him and is facing into Sigerson training and is now expected to return home every weekend for games or training? and this is before I even mention dual players. Now I know these lads are in the minority but they are the most talented players and it is unreasonable to ask them to serve so many masters all year. We need to figure out exactly what we want out of our sports because we can't talk of clubs in isolation of schools, colleges and counties.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 12, 2010, 11:12:14 AM
Quote from: Zulu on January 12, 2010, 11:09:03 AM
QuoteHe argues that this will give more emphasis to club football because of the amount of teams who can play in the provincial series as well as the amount of new revenue that it can generate for clubs. He also wants club football to start in Feb, alternating each Sunday with county fixtures.
So he wants the club season to run from Feb to Dec? And alternating the club with county fixtures is complete nonsense, how would a county team get any momentum if it only had players every second week? And what about IC players getting a break, or dual code clubs? Not to mention the fact that bad weather or a bereavement at a club would cause fixture chaos.
True but more eveidence again of how we're moving towards the semi-professional and near professional model at IC sooner rather than later. Something has to give.
I think if a competition like this was introduced, it would be likely to speed the arrival of professionalism (something which is inevitable imo, and will be good for the game, but thats for another thread).
With the overall set-up as it is at the minute, it is easy to forecast the demise of the clubs; however, imo, were there moves towards professionalism (which wont be for a while yet), I think it would be through the clubs, and probably somewhat at the demise of the IC, initally at least, rather than vice-versa. A competition like the one McHugh proposes, would be how I could see top level gaelic being played in years to come, but as the main competition, not as an alteration to the current club championship. Intercounty games would still be important, but not the be-all and end-all; similar to internationals in Soccer.
There are problems with the system he proposes, as outlined by others, but many of these are because he has tried to fit it around the existing system, presumably so that it wouldnt be called a 'radical' fix (some hope in conservative GAA circles! :P).
Quote from: Rawhide on January 12, 2010, 11:44:46 AM
Ha ha, they do, but the provincial championship of 36 teams would be run by the provincial council, therefore ot would get played.
I,m just basing my opinion on the way the Ulster leagues are working. If the respective county boards work with the Ulster council it might work, but I see no evidence of that to date. Even last year (2009) our club were involved in the Ulster hc semi and ended up having to play it 4 days after our county final replay. Multiply the problem by a factor of five. Trouble.
Quote from: haranguerer on January 12, 2010, 01:38:58 PM
With the overall set-up as it is at the minute, it is easy to forecast the demise of the clubs; however, imo, were there moves towards professionalism (which wont be for a while yet), I think it would be through the clubs, and probably somewhat at the demise of the IC, initally at least, rather than vice-versa.
Are you for real? How many GAA clubs do you know of that are anywhere near wealthy enough to support professionalism?
Quote from: AFS on January 12, 2010, 01:59:11 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on January 12, 2010, 01:38:58 PM
With the overall set-up as it is at the minute, it is easy to forecast the demise of the clubs; however, imo, were there moves towards professionalism (which wont be for a while yet), I think it would be through the clubs, and probably somewhat at the demise of the IC, initally at least, rather than vice-versa.
Are you for real? How many GAA clubs do you know of that are anywhere near wealthy enough to support professionalism?
You just beat me to it.
IMO a ridiculous idea. Imagine a club team from north antrim having to play a club team from south cork. Fixed for somewhere in the midlands....so both teams have to travel and incur the costs of hotels etc....and potentially would have to do the same in 2 weeks time. No club I know of could afford that investment in one team, given all the other teams that exist within a club.
The club-county alternating weekly would never work either. Injuries, training, work....just not practical.
Stupid idea....but it was McHugh I suppose so not really surprised.
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 12, 2010, 02:10:00 PM
Quote from: AFS on January 12, 2010, 01:59:11 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on January 12, 2010, 01:38:58 PM
With the overall set-up as it is at the minute, it is easy to forecast the demise of the clubs; however, imo, were there moves towards professionalism (which wont be for a while yet), I think it would be through the clubs, and probably somewhat at the demise of the IC, initally at least, rather than vice-versa.
Are you for real? How many GAA clubs do you know of that are anywhere near wealthy enough to support professionalism?
You just beat me to it.
IMO a ridiculous idea. Imagine a club team from north antrim having to play a club team from south cork. Fixed for somewhere in the midlands....so both teams have to travel and incur the costs of hotels etc....and potentially would have to do the same in 2 weeks time. No club I know of could afford that investment in one team, given all the other teams that exist within a club.
The club-county alternating weekly would never work either. Injuries, training, work....just not practical.
Stupid idea....but it was McHugh I suppose so not really surprised.
Is the suggestion not for a provincial club championship??
And as for this rubbish about burn out and too many games, assuming its a knock out, half the clubs will only get one extra game (bar replays) and only two will have a maximum of 5 extra games! I dont know a footballer who would moan about having to play a provincial club quarter final, semi final or final! Are any of the cookstown lads annoyed they reached the all ireland intermediate semi? I think it has the potential to be a great idea - and i for one would welcome the AI series finishing in August - fits in better with my holidays!!
It's a crap idea. At the minute there are county champions that only make half arsed attempts at the provincial championship because a county title was their only real goal, and the Ulster championship is just a bonus. Beaten semi-finalists and finalists would give even less of a shit about it.
Quote from: AFS on January 12, 2010, 02:35:45 PM
It's a crap idea. At the minute there are county champions that only make half arsed attempts at the provincial championship because a county title was their only real goal, and the Ulster championship is just a bonus. Beaten semi-finalists and finalists would give even less of a shit about it.
the same priciple was applied to the county teams and they didn't turn their noses up at it. Your making an very big assumption, maybe you know your club team wouldn't give a hoot, but I know ours would.
Quote from: AFS on January 12, 2010, 02:35:45 PM
It's a crap idea. At the minute there are county champions that only make half arsed attempts at the provincial championship because a county title was their only real goal, and the Ulster championship is just a bonus. Beaten semi-finalists and finalists would give even less of a shit about it.
Maybe for some clubs - but other clubs have higher ambitions. Just because "some clubs" dont care about the provincial championship - doesnt mean this is a bad idea! I dont agree with all his proposals (i.e. the club running on alternate weeks with inter county) but i genuinely think there is some merit here - for example, would bellaghy not relish the chance of playing Ballinderry again in an ulster club final if they'd been beaten in the county semi? Would another armagh club (maybe mullaghbawn) not have been interested to see how they would have fared if given a run at a championship away from Crossmaglen? Like i said, its not perfect but i think it has some merit and I would be interested in seeing it tried!
Quote from: AFS on January 12, 2010, 01:59:11 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on January 12, 2010, 01:38:58 PM
With the overall set-up as it is at the minute, it is easy to forecast the demise of the clubs; however, imo, were there moves towards professionalism (which wont be for a while yet), I think it would be through the clubs, and probably somewhat at the demise of the IC, initally at least, rather than vice-versa.
Are you for real? How many GAA clubs do you know of that are anywhere near wealthy enough to support professionalism?
Slow down Brains. By not a while yet, I mean 10 - 15 yrs
at the very least. And I didn't think anyone thinks that one day we'll have amateur players, the next day they're getting 50k a week....
A lot of the current structures will change first, including the distribution of money. A regular league involving the top club teams will bring in decent crowds, and generate TV money, sponsorship, etc.
You seem to have a problem with it being clubs, rather than counties that turn professional; at the min thats all anyone seems to see because its the top level. However, the problem I see is that if county players are paid, they become assets for their county, and will not be allowed to play many (if any) club games. Yet it will still be the clubs who will be producing these players.
It thus becomes counter productive to produce top class players if you're going to lose them to the county. The only way you can hang onto them is to match the wage, and get them to declare for club rather than county. This is what I can see happening, and will lead to the club championship becoming as important as, and eventually surpassing, the intercounty championship, at which point intercounty matches are cut back, i.e league done away with or championship played every 2 yrs, for e.g.
Granted, it is a bit of crystal ball gazing, at the end of the day none of us know what twists the course of professionalism will take, but I'm sure its inevitable, and this is the most likely way for it to be maintained imo.
Other professional team sports on this island cannot sustain more than a handful of professional teams, despite drawing support from infinitely larger populations bases than your average GAA club. Whats going to happen over the next 10-15 years that will allow a parish of a couple of thousand support 20-30 professional footballers, even on the most modest wages.
Professionalism would be unsustainable at intercounty level, never mind club level.
"However, the problem I see is that if county players are paid, they become assets for their county, and will not be allowed to play many (if any) club games."
Haranguerer you need to think about that a wee bit more. That's one of the problems those of us who are anti gpa see but unlike you we don't see the gpa focusing on the club player.
As for Martin McHugh ideas they seem to be in a football context only and not a GAA one. Zulu alluded to the duel player but what consideration has the playing of hurling been given in all this? There doesn't seem to be any.
A bit more effeciency in running leagues and championships by county boards without hindrence from clubs would be a good starting point.
I've always believed that leagues, even the national leagues in some way, should be relevent to championship, perhaps in relation to championship seeding so that there's more to gain or lose and more incentive to play matches.
The point is that its not your average GAA club. This would involve only the top club teams in Ireland. The majority of GAA clubs will never get to that level: the majority of their (that is the local clubs) supporters would also support a top level team, probably one they're close to geographically. Bearing in mind that there would be professional status, (this'll give you another fit...) there would be transfers, so certain local clubs would have connections to larger clubs - i.e. as feeder clubs or whatever; this would be another basis on which support would be split.
Professionalism in the GAA is sustainable at sensible levels, and indeed, will be necessary in years to come for the development of the game. Gaelic games are much more widely supported than either soccer or rugby on these islands, both of which, despite being run seemingly by imbeciles, manage to maintain professional status.
Just noticed your point when i went to post, Dowling - I have not considered the GPA at all - I'm talking about where I see the GAA going in broad terms over the next 20-30 years - I think these changes will occur almost naturally, I'm not sure the GPA themselves have any vision of their own future.
Quote from: dowling on January 12, 2010, 03:28:38 PM
"However, the problem I see is that if county players are paid, they become assets for their county, and will not be allowed to play many (if any) club games."
Haranguerer you need to think about that a wee bit more. That's one of the problems those of us who are anti gpa see but unlike you we don't see the gpa focusing on the club player.
As for Martin McHugh ideas they seem to be in a football context only and not a GAA one. Zulu alluded to the duel player but what consideration has the playing of hurling been given in all this? There doesn't seem to be any.
A bit more effeciency in running leagues and championships by county boards without hindrence from clubs would be a good starting point.
I've always believed that leagues, even the national leagues in some way, should be relevent to championship, perhaps in relation to championship seeding so that there's more to gain or lose and more incentive to play matches.
In my best DUP accent
here here, I agree 100%.
Quote from: haranguerer on January 12, 2010, 03:57:17 PM
The point is that its not your average GAA club. This would involve only the top club teams in Ireland. The majority of GAA clubs will never get to that level: the majority of their (that is the local clubs) supporters would also support a top level team, probably one they're close to geographically. Bearing in mind that there would be professional status, (this'll give you another fit...) there would be transfers, so certain local clubs would have connections to larger clubs - i.e. as feeder clubs or whatever; this would be another basis on which support would be split.
These 'top club teams', supplemented by local feeder clubs, sound very similar to what we now call county teams.
Quote from: haranguerer on January 12, 2010, 03:57:17 PM
Professionalism in the GAA is sustainable at sensible levels, and indeed, will be necessary in years to come for the development of the game.
Can you provide any evidence for this? Or is it just a hunch? At a glance, most county boards don't seem to have massive surpluses that could be ploughed into player wages. What will change in the future? The isn't that much potential for additional attendances, and I can't see a professional era attracting significantly more sponsorship than at present.
Quote from: haranguerer on January 12, 2010, 03:57:17 PM
Gaelic games are much more widely supported than either soccer or rugby on these islands, both of which, despite being run seemingly by imbeciles, manage to maintain professional status.
In rugby's case, a whole four teams, despite the additional benefits of European competition. Professional soccer in Ireland isn't even worth mentioning, if anything it should be held up as a deterrent for anyone thinking of persuing this path.
Quote from: haranguerer on January 12, 2010, 03:57:17 PM
The point is that its not your average GAA club. This would involve only the top club teams in Ireland. The majority of GAA clubs will never get to that level: the majority of their (that is the local clubs) supporters would also support a top level team, probably one they're close to geographically. Bearing in mind that there would be professional status, (this'll give you another fit...) there would be transfers, so certain local clubs would have connections to larger clubs - i.e. as feeder clubs or whatever; this would be another basis on which support would be split.
Professionalism in the GAA is sustainable at sensible levels, and indeed, will be necessary in years to come for the development of the game. Gaelic games are much more widely supported than either soccer or rugby on these islands, both of which, despite being run seemingly by imbeciles, manage to maintain professional status.
Just noticed your point when i went to post, Dowling - I have not considered the GPA at all - I'm talking about where I see the GAA going in broad terms over the next 20-30 years - I think these changes will occur almost naturally, I'm not sure the GPA themselves have any vision of their own future.
if this was to happen it would also see most of the big rivalries in club football disappear. in order for clubs to maintain professionalism, big clubs would have to amalgamlate. thus meaning more membership, bigger attendances etc. however this could cause splits in clubs and ultimatley lead to the downfall of professionalism in the gaa
Am i missing something? I didnt get to read the full article by McHugh - but did he make some suggestion about the clubs going professional? If not, why have people jumped to this conclusion on this thread? My understanding is that he wants a higher profile to be given to the club game - this doesnt have to be in a professional capacity!
No, he didn't - the debate has moved into that, I think mainly because I said his idea is roughly how I envision professional competitions in the future, i.e. club based.
There seems to be a lot of misinterpretation going on in this debate. There is no desire or request for club or county to become professional. If it happened you can forget about the gaa surviving all the club volunteers will disappear and you wont have games.
Quote from: haranguerer on January 13, 2010, 09:01:50 AM
No, he didn't - the debate has moved into that, I think mainly because I said his idea is roughly how I envision professional competitions in the future, i.e. club based.
When someone makes a suggestion about how we can develop the game - and i think this idea has its merits though not perfect - there is always someone who needlessly "moves the debate on" to professionalism! This provincial club championship idea from McHugh in no way requires professionalism, so moving the debate this way is pointless!
Benny, If you'd bothered your arse to read the thread you wouldnt have had to post a stupid question that i had the decency to answer.
If a point is made in a post and someone responds to it, should not a response to that be made? Is it not pretty much the point of discussion boards? Threads often take turns - why dont you go over onto the Robinson thread for eg and tell them off for not sticking to the title - last I checked they're talking about scotlands independence.
Professionalism is the biggest issue in the GAA at the min, hardly surprising it comes up frequently in GAA related debate.
I dont agree that professionalism is the biggest issue facing the GAA at the minute - there is very few people round my club and who i come into contact give a rats ass about professionalism at the minute - but would be interested in an ulster club champinship for example! There is too many scaremongers who bring up professionalsim to beat down any suggestion that is made! And what has the Robinsons got to do with this thread? You plainly have a talent for irrelevance?
Quote from: BennyHarp on January 13, 2010, 09:46:57 AM
I dont agree that professionalism is the biggest issue facing the GAA at the minute - there is very few people round my club and who i come into contact give a rats ass about professionalism at the minute
Which is precisely how professionalism gets introduced. Those pushing the professionalism agenda are working on it full time while the majority don't even know it's on the agenda until after they've been sleepwalked into it because they didn't "give a rat's ass".
I'll make a bold prediction here and this can be brought back up to haunt me if anyone wishes to do so - but there will never in any of our life time be a professional club football scene in the GAA! Its is not the biggest issue face our club players and this suggestion by McHugh was specifically a club based suggestion! So I feel its not relevant in this discussion - we should be focusing on the merits of the idea - how could we fit it in? Is there a demand for it? Would it add to the profile of the clubs? Would it cause burn out amongst our players? Would TV be interested? Would clubs treat it seriously? Would people attend it? Would it add to or detract from local rivalries? Will it produce new rivalries? Would one counties clubs dominate? When i first read the first post in this thread i never in a million years would have thought - will it lead to professionalism?
Benny, you are giving out about this thread leading onto posts debating professionalism. The point I made is that threads often develop so that the main debate is no longer the thread title; I referenced the robinsons thread to support my point. Not that hard to follow, surely.
Again, if you'd bothered to actually read and think about the posts, you might have been able to see how the debate led where it did; but I'll say most of it again:
There are problems with McHughs idea, as were mentioned by other posters: I made the point that a lot of these problems (fitting around IC fixtures, long season, etc) were mainly down to the fact that he suggested this system as an addition to the current set-up (probably so that it didnt appear too radical), i.e. basically an extension of the current season for successful clubs, rather than an alternative.
If there was a club championship like this, then I think its a certainty the county championships would be undervalued, given that the semi-finalists and finalists would all have entry into this competition anyway. So you might as well have those top clubs not competing in the county championship at all, but going directly into the Ulster club championship - which would solve the problems of extended seasons. Entry into the Ulster club could be by prior year league standings for eg.
After a few years I reckon the Ulster competition entrants would pick themselves anyway - those clubs who have not had any success are likely to opt to play in their co championship instead, while counties who have more than 4 clubs capable of playing at this level would be able to take up the extra spaces. This would leave a championship based on the best teams in ulster, rather than county boundaries, which is exactly what a competition like this should entail.
This clearly tiered club system is likely to lead to other issues - transfers and the like, as clubs seek to maintain their position in the premier competition, and it is from this situation that I see professionalism coming in. I think its inevitable that professionalism will enter the game - certainly that co players will receive payment in the near future. If the club game is developing as above, which is also likely, then there will come a point where the two clash - co players not allowed to play for clubs being the most likely issue. From there, I reckon clubs will match co payments to keep their players, and the club game will eventually become more powerful than the co game.
I said a few times, its crystal ball gazing, and not the near future, but just what I think - and it is related to mcHughs ideas of a club championship.
And professionalism is certainly one of the biggest issues in the GAA at the min - its absurd to suggest otherwise.
Quote from: BennyHarp on January 13, 2010, 10:23:50 AM
I'll make a bold prediction here and this can be brought back up to haunt me if anyone wishes to do so - but there will never in any of our life time be a professional club football scene in the GAA! Its is not the biggest issue face our club players and this suggestion by McHugh was specifically a club based suggestion! So I feel its not relevant in this discussion - we should be focusing on the merits of the idea - how could we fit it in? Is there a demand for it? Would it add to the profile of the clubs? Would it cause burn out amongst our players? Would TV be interested? Would clubs treat it seriously? Would people attend it? Would it add to or detract from local rivalries? Will it produce new rivalries? Would one counties clubs dominate? When i first read the first post in this thread i never in a million years would have thought - will it lead to professionalism?
Just for clarity, I agree that when professionalism comes, it won't be based on the club structure. I was just making a narrow point about how it will be introduced by stealth. I've outlined elsewhere how I think structures will change to facilitate it.
Of course, the new professional entities will be called "clubs", but that's just marketing-speak and corruption of language. Manchester United, one of the biggest sports/entertainment conglomerates in Europe calls itself a "club".
Here's me thinking Martin McHugh couldn't possibly talk any more shite than usual...low and behold! I think I'd far rather win a county championship than reach a semi-final, lose but still get put into an Ulster Championship; takes value away from each county championship aswell as the Ulster club SFC itself. And I don't know about other counties but in Armagh it is possible to receive a bye; win one match, and get into the SFC semi-final. Imagine playing one championship match all year and finding yourself in a club championship! WTF! McHugh must have been up errigal smoking turf when he thought that one up!
Quote from: fitzroyalty on January 13, 2010, 02:54:44 PM
Here's me thinking Martin McHugh couldn't possibly talk any more shite than usual...low and behold! I think I'd far rather win a county championship than reach a semi-final, lose but still get put into an Ulster Championship; takes value away from each county championship aswell as the Ulster club SFC itself. And I don't know about other counties but in Armagh it is possible to receive a bye; win one match, and get into the SFC semi-final. Imagine playing one championship match all year and finding yourself in a club championship! WTF! McHugh must have been up errigal smoking turf when he thought that one up!
Don,t worry it,ll never happen.