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I honestly think that his comments about KK fans dumping their rubbish on the pitch were extremely ill-advised.
His statement that fencing is now inevitable also shows poor judgement on his part.
He is creating a very adversarial atmosphere in the run up to the biggest sporting event of the year.
Him and Cooney would want to get it into their heads sooner rather than later that the fans WILL go on the pitch after the football final.
I'd wager people that normally wouldn't invade the pitch will now go out of their way to do so just to let the powers that be in Croke Park know who's boss.
I had good time for him up until this debacle.
Had a listen to Liveline there earlier and 3/4 of the people that phoned in were in favour of keeping things the way they were.

Quote from: Jinxy on September 09, 2009, 12:39:46 AM
I honestly think that his comments about KK fans dumping their rubbish on the pitch were extremely ill-advised.
His statement that fencing is now inevitable also shows poor judgement on his part.
He is creating a very adversarial atmosphere in the run up to the biggest sporting event of the year.
Him and Cooney would want to get it into their heads sooner rather than later that the fans WILL go on the pitch after the football final.
I'd wager people that normally wouldn't invade the pitch will now go out of their way to do so just to let the powers that be in Croke Park know who's boss.
I had good time for him up until this debacle.
Had a listen to Liveline there earlier and 3/4 of the people that phoned in were in favour of keeping things the way they were.

i'm not a fan at all, imo he's been one of the driving forces behind the profit maximisation agenda pursued by some within the upper echelons of the gaa.  I understand the need for croke park to generate revenue, but imo he and the rest of the stadium management do so with little regard for the rest of the organisation.  They seem think that croke park is their property and that the rest of us should be grateful when we're allowed in.  I wonder how his compensation package is structured?

Quote from: Bogball XV on September 09, 2009, 02:07:31 AM

Quote from: Jinxy on September 09, 2009, 12:39:46 AM
I honestly think that his comments about KK fans dumping their rubbish on the pitch were extremely ill-advised.
His statement that fencing is now inevitable also shows poor judgement on his part.
He is creating a very adversarial atmosphere in the run up to the biggest sporting event of the year.
Him and Cooney would want to get it into their heads sooner rather than later that the fans WILL go on the pitch after the football final.
I'd wager people that normally wouldn't invade the pitch will now go out of their way to do so just to let the powers that be in Croke Park know who's boss.
I had good time for him up until this debacle.
Had a listen to Liveline there earlier and 3/4 of the people that phoned in were in favour of keeping things the way they were.

i'm not a fan at all, imo he's been one of the driving forces behind the profit maximisation agenda pursued by some within the upper echelons of the gaa.  I understand the need for croke park to generate revenue, but imo he and the rest of the stadium management do so with little regard for the rest of the organisation.  They seem think that croke park is their property and that the rest of us should be grateful when we're allowed in. 

See announcements directed at 'patrons' of Croke park - I'm not a feckin customer, I'm one of the landlords!

Where's he from anyway?

Hang on lads, he's employed by the GAA specifically for the "profit maximisation agenda" that finances your favourite sport in every parish in Ireland.  He has a job; he's doing it.  And he's from Longford.  ;)

this is the man who single handedly made such a balls of the logistics operation for manys an all-Ireland club final that people's lives were 'allegedly' put in danger.

the man who came up with a master-stroke to alleviate the mile-long queue at the ticket sales point at the launderette on Dorset St by selling tickets out of the boot of a car.

the man who figured it'd be grand sure to dig up the croke park pitch a week before the Leinster football final.

the man whose choice of playing surface in 2004 cost a certain Laois footballer his ability to walk for several months. That same year turning the croke park sod into an ice rink.

He is clearly incompetent. How hes let be where he is for so long is mind-boggling.

And, if the pitch is really that bad (and apparently it really is THAT bad - the Indo reports a deodorant can and a pair of spectacle - gasp, yes spectacles - found on the sod) - then why doesn't he tear up the sod again and lay a nice shiny new surface. Sure its wednesday. Its not needed again til sunday. Loads of time.

Cop on McKenna.
Cop on Cooney. A very bad start to your presidency.

Cooney seems more of a bureaucrat than a politician which actually worries me in a way.
I think Brennan or even Kelly (god help us) would have figured out which way the wind was blowing and consigned this idea to the bin.
This talk of fencing is really making me mad.
It is a completely petulant reaction on McKennas part.

My opinion for what it is worth. Firstly I am a Cat's supporter and secondly I am a McKenna supporter.

Cat's on the pitch?  In the last few years, like every other county including my own there are small cells of troublemakers infiltrating the GAA. Kilkenny have them too, the soccer chants and finger pointing and taunting. A small group of these Kilkenny supporters were on Hill 16 at last years A.I.F. annoying Waterford supporters. The security in place, or to be more precise, that was put in place by Peter McKenna dealt with this situation when it was about to get ugly because of less than 0.5% of the total amount of Kilkenny supporters.   These are the type that hit the stewards boxes in the face on Sunday and there is no need for that type of animal in our association. If the stewards had hit back and laid out one of these we could have had a riot.

Peter McKenna?  When Brian Cody was asked did he think Tommy Walsh hurled close to the edge Cody said, 'the day he doesn't hurl close to the edge is the day I will be worried'.  I have found Peter McKenna, Linda & Niamh McCoy and every single staff member of Croker to be top notch and the day I will worry about Croke Park is when they are not there. I am not in favour of the change in the presentation format by the way but there is a difference between being a bully and being a man of principle which I know McKenna to be. He has made decisions in Croke Park that has already saved lives not least on a few occasions with defribilators on at least three occasions up to three years ago.  If Peter McKenna has come to a decision that is unpopular with us he has not come to it just for something to do, he is doing it for a reason and while I would prefer the old format I would respect his decision because like the ones he made to get the Croke Park residents on board there is some reason for him making it that we are not all clear on.

In defence of Mc Kenna, he cannot be held repsonsible on his own for everythnig that goes wrong in Croke Park.

Decisions are not taken solely by him - there's more than him making these decisions.


On Sunday past, the vast, vast majority of supporters / patrons or whatever you want to call them were quite happy to stay put. All the people in the seated areas were quite content to sit down and wait for the presentation. Lads who might have had a few too many and were full of bravado when confronted by the bouncers, decided that they were getting on the pitch regardless of who it was that was trying to stop them.


The issue of stopping people getting onto the pitch has been IMO brought about not only by insurance reasons, but mostly because of the need to protect the grass from being damaged as a result of an earlier decision to relay the pitch at the absolute height of the GAA season.


Would they have relaid the pitch in the rugby / soccer season ? Not a chance - that would have been too embarassing - but it's alright for us gobshites.


Mc Kenna has a job to do - he's doing a very good job. But like us all, we're human and make mistakes - so is Mr. Mc Kenna - he's the boss and the boss usually makes decisions that those below him might find unpopular but if we were in his place, we might just make the same decisons and the same mistakes.

i just cant have the man at all.

why?

The soccer boys who now can't fund the big soccer pitch/rugby pitch in D4 would certainly like to have him.

You could see in Cooneys face when he was presenting Liam that he was sickened to the core that fans were on the pitch. Then he came out and said that last sunday was "sad". Some cheek, 4 in a row and a savage game of hurling, anything but sad...the only thing sad would have been the little pathetic flag waving cermony on the pitch if it had gone ahead..

McKenna is a business man who just wants to make money, thats his job and i don't think we should be that surprised that he doesn't have a clue about the GAA and it's values.

Where was the heath and safety concerns when there were children holding county flags at the Hill and Canal ends especially and Tipp and KK were warming up and sliothars were flying in all directions at speed ?. I was watching Cody and he was looking at them as if to say, what the f--k are they doing here.


Eventually somebosy copped on that they were going to get hit and removed them.

Quote from: Bud Wiser on September 09, 2009, 09:12:04 AM
My opinion for what it is worth. Firstly I am a Cat's supporter and secondly I am a McKenna supporter.

Cat's on the pitch?  In the last few years, like every other county including my own there are small cells of troublemakers infiltrating the GAA. Kilkenny have them too, the soccer chants and finger pointing and taunting. A small group of these Kilkenny supporters were on Hill 16 at last years A.I.F. annoying Waterford supporters. The security in place, or to be more precise, that was put in place by Peter McKenna dealt with this situation when it was about to get ugly because of less than 0.5% of the total amount of Kilkenny supporters.   These are the type that hit the stewards boxes in the face on Sunday and there is no need for that type of animal in our association. If the stewards had hit back and laid out one of these we could have had a riot.

Peter McKenna?  When Brian Cody was asked did he think Tommy Walsh hurled close to the edge Cody said, 'the day he doesn't hurl close to the edge is the day I will be worried'.  I have found Peter McKenna, Linda & Niamh McCoy and every single staff member of Croker to be top notch and the day I will worry about Croke Park is when they are not there. I am not in favour of the change in the presentation format by the way but there is a difference between being a bully and being a man of principle which I know McKenna to be. He has made decisions in Croke Park that has already saved lives not least on a few occasions with defribilators on at least three occasions up to three years ago.  If Peter McKenna has come to a decision that is unpopular with us he has not come to it just for something to do, he is doing it for a reason and while I would prefer the old format I would respect his decision because like the ones he made to get the Croke Park residents on board there is some reason for him making it that we are not all clear on.

What do you think of his comments with regard to kilkenny supporters dumping their rubbish on the pitch Bud?
What do you think of his statement that the return of fencing is inevitable?

QuoteMcKenna is a business man who just wants to make money, thats his job and i don't think we should be that surprised that he doesn't have a clue about the GAA and it's values.

Couldn't agree more, that is exactly what Peter McKenna is, a business man.  If the government could harness one like him we would not be in the shit we are in today and a National Stadium at Abbotstown would be a reality instead of a fairytale of Bertie Ahearns creation.  Lansdowne Rd which seats 30,000 less when it is eventually completed can't sell the seats they have while as of today there are over three thousand on a six year waiting list for seats in the Premium level of Croke Park.

For an operation the size of Croke Park and how it is run we have little to cry about.  As for the presentation which is what this thread is about, maybe it could have been explained a bit better and a bit of thought put into the actual podium.  For example, the value of advertising on this podium pro-rata to a sideline banner or an add in Grand Prix terms should be estimated.  If the main sponsor insists that Etihad for example must me there then an amount similar to the value of the add could be allocated to some worthy cause that would bring the supporters on side.  A worthy cause could range from a local charity or be added to the Goal Fund in Nolan Park tonight when the Cats play Ballyhale for charity.  That would keep people off the pitch because there is interaction between the supporters and the ones making the decision.  I will be taking up my new position in Croke Park soon and I intend to change all this.

QuoteWhat do you think of his comments with regard to kilkenny supporters dumping their rubbish on the pitch Bud?
What do you think of his statement that the return of fencing is inevitable?

Like I said, I agree with McKenna, he has a job to do and as far as I am concerned he is doing a bloody good one.  Now is not the time for some indecisive eejits like what run such important bodies as our health service to be in McKennas position.
What do you think of supporters hitting security/stewards a box in the face, some of them with injuries that will cost the GAA thousands?  What do you think of anyone in the front rows that had children that did not want to go on the pitch but could have been crushed to death because the people doing the pushing had no regard for anyone only themselves.

I agree that the GAA should make Croke Park AIF a family day and fireworks at the awarding cermony would have been conducive to this.  Perhaps if ihad been announced that fireworks required all to remain in their seats it would have been better, I don't know, as I said I am in favour of the older tradidion but by the same token I will accept the new one.  As I suggested, if a 30 second add on RTE cost McHales Hay Balers 15,000 euro, then if a sponsor was found for the podium for 20,000 (considering it is going to be on RTE for a lot longer than 30 seconds and in every paper) and if that were to go to Goal or whatever charity the winning team decide then there is a carrot and stick approach which may have been better.

The other side of the story is likely to be printed this week too from the supporters end. So this looks like its going to run.

Bud, I've seen Frontline security in action. There was a number of witnesses on Liveline yesterday that reported some extremely rough behaviour towards one young lad in particular. Like Indiana says, there's more to come on this. As for all the talk of podiums, sponsors and fireworks, this isn't the Heineken Cup. I couldn't care less if we're missing out on an opportunity to make a few grand.

Quote from: Jinxy on September 09, 2009, 10:48:58 AM
Bud, I've seen Frontline security in action. There was a number of witnesses on Liveline yesterday that reported some extremely rough behaviour towards one young lad in particular. Like Indiana says, there's more to come on this. As for all the talk of podiums, sponsors and fireworks, this isn't the Heineken Cup. I couldn't care less if we're missing out on an opportunity to make a few grand.

Well said.

I don't think McKenna is doing a good job. He has one of the easiest jobs in the country. Croke Park is the only stadium of its size so there will always be demand for its use. There is no fighting or pitching needed to get events to take place there. The corporate facilities are top-notch and with the stadium's location so close to the city, again people will always want to piggy-back onto the whole romanticism of the GAA and its history and use the facilities.

I'm sure the bottom-line figures are all fine and dandy and from that perspective hes doing the job that was asked of him. But hes not in touch with grassroots GAA, its ethos, its people, what it stands for, and some of the fundamentals that should always always be preserved. For me thats the main problem. Hurling and football teams can't get access to the pitch for a runout the week before a game, yet its no bother for soccer or rugby to get all the time they want on it. The pitch being torn up - well that just beggars belief and theres no way it can be dressed up to make it sound any way sensible - remember 1985? The Simple Minds gig, how it made shit of the pitch and how the GAA said it would never make that mistake again (even though they did in 1987 with the U2 concerts that year).

When I was a kid I went to Croke Park whenever there was any game of any description on. I could relate what was happening there with what I did myself in my home club. Some of the guys in the club worked in the stadium in various roles. The history just exuded from the place - you could almost hear echoes of Ring, Keher and Rackard. You knew this was the stadium, the very same stadium, that those people who are such important historical figures stood in generations before you.

But now. Now its this big characterless money-making entity that the majority of people playing our games have not got a hope in hell of ever playing on. Now we're lucky if we even get to walk on the sod after a game. Now we have private security firms watching your every move. Its become an intimidating, less accessible place. Its become something that kids can only dream about ever playing in. When I was a kid we had the schools finals there. We brought our hurls to games. We went down onto the pitch and pucked around until we were asked to leave. I'm not saying it should go back to that, but its becoming further and further from what it should be.

The GAA is build around the people who volunteer. Who take teams out. The players who play. The kids who turn up in their droves every saturday morning to learn the skills of hurling and football. The stadium is their/our stadium. It shouldn't be this big white elephant that now stands where our beloved Croke Park used to. And its up to Peter McKenna and the rest of those in Croke Park Teo to ensure it stays the GAA's stadium (without losing sight of what the GAA really is and stands for).

Quote from: bottlethrower7 on September 09, 2009, 11:00:14 AM
I don't think McKenna is doing a good job. He has one of the easiest jobs in the country. Croke Park is the only stadium of its size so there will always be demand for its use. There is no fighting or pitching needed to get events to take place there. The corporate facilities are top-notch and with the stadium's location so close to the city, again people will always want to piggy-back onto the whole romanticism of the GAA and its history and use the facilities.

I'm sure the bottom-line figures are all fine and dandy and from that perspective hes doing the job that was asked of him. But hes not in touch with grassroots GAA, its ethos, its people, what it stands for, and some of the fundamentals that should always always be preserved. For me thats the main problem. Hurling and football teams can't get access to the pitch for a runout the week before a game, yet its no bother for soccer or rugby to get all the time they want on it. The pitch being torn up - well that just beggars belief and theres no way it can be dressed up to make it sound any way sensible - remember 1985? The Simple Minds gig, how it made shit of the pitch and how the GAA said it would never make that mistake again (even though they did in 1987 with the U2 concerts that year).

When I was a kid I went to Croke Park whenever there was any game of any description on. I could relate what was happening there with what I did myself in my home club. Some of the guys in the club worked in the stadium in various roles. The history just exuded from the place - you could almost hear echoes of Ring, Keher and Rackard. You knew this was the stadium, the very same stadium, that those people who are such important historical figures stood in generations before you.

But now. Now its this big characterless money-making entity that the majority of people playing our games have not got a hope in hell of ever playing on. Now we're lucky if we even get to walk on the sod after a game. Now we have private security firms watching your every move. Its become an intimidating, less accessible place. Its become something that kids can only dream about ever playing in. When I was a kid we had the schools finals there. We brought our hurls to games. We went down onto the pitch and pucked around until we were asked to leave. I'm not saying it should go back to that, but its becoming further and further from what it should be.

The GAA is build around the people who volunteer. Who take teams out. The players who play. The kids who turn up in their droves every saturday morning to learn the skills of hurling and football. The stadium is their/our stadium. It shouldn't be this big white elephant that now stands where our beloved Croke Park used to. And its up to Peter McKenna and the rest of those in Croke Park Teo to ensure it stays the GAA's stadium (without losing sight of what the GAA really is and stands for).

Can't argue with any of that.

Excellent post Bottlethower7

Its amazing though these security groups can never police the Hill regardles of what supporters are on it. Heard there were some very unsavorery incidents on Sunday there. The only thing they seem to be good at is being macho at the end of games. perhaps if they actually did their jobs properly in the first place, they'd have more respect.

Jeez bud with all thi talk of facts and figures and advertising revenue and the likes you are beginning to remind me of a fella Farrell I once knew...   ;)

QuoteAs for all the talk of podiums, sponsors and fireworks, this isn't the Heineken Cup. I couldn't care less if we're missing out on an opportunity to make a few grand.

I know you don't care about missing out on a few grand but I wasn't talking about you missing out.  What I was saying was that firstly I was in favour of the old way the presentation has been made- but - if they want to chgange it to a podium style thingy in the middle of the park there are a hell of a lot of charities that could benefit from the idea of the podium sponsorship going to their aid.  There are little girls waiting on heart op's, there are children waiting on liver transplants that could be done in other countries and countless other charities such as the Kilkenny team are lining out for this evening at 6.30pm in Nolan Park and the point I made is that an interaction between the GAA and the public in general would be good PR for all of us.  We would be the first to do it.  That would have frig all to do with the Heiniken cup or any other cup other than the McCarthy Cup and the Sam Maguire Cup.

As for Bottlethrowers post, I could not agree more, yes, mistakes have been made but we are not all perfect, including Peter McKenna.  It is from mistakes we learn and above all other people I think McKenna is the first one who will admit that.

Quote from: Bud Wiser on September 09, 2009, 11:43:03 AM

QuoteAs for all the talk of podiums, sponsors and fireworks, this isn't the Heineken Cup. I couldn't care less if we're missing out on an opportunity to make a few grand.

I know you don't care about missing out on a few grand but I wasn't talking about you missing out.  What I was saying was that firstly I was in favour of the old way the presentation has been made- but - if they want to chgange it to a podium style thingy in the middle of the park there are a hell of a lot of charities that could benefit from the idea of the podium sponsorship going to their aid.  There are little girls waiting on heart op's, there are children waiting on liver transplants that could be done in other countries and countless other charities such as the Kilkenny team are lining out for this evening at 6.30pm in Nolan Park and the point I made is that an interaction between the GAA and the public in general would be good PR for all of us.  We would be the first to do it.  That would have frig all to do with the Heiniken cup or any other cup other than the McCarthy Cup and the Sam Maguire Cup.

As for Bottlethrowers post, I could not agree more, yes, mistakes have been made but we are not all perfect, including Peter McKenna.  It is from mistakes we learn and above all other people I think McKenna is the first one who will admit that.

Why does it have to involve the presentation at all?
Have a half-time free-taking competition and the winner gets to nominate a charity to receive 20 grand.
Your suggestion is still driven by advertising a corporate sponsor Bud regardless of where the money goes.

QuoteAs for all the talk of podiums, sponsors and fireworks, this isn't the Heineken Cup. I couldn't care less if we're missing out on an opportunity to make a few grand.

Maybe have an egg and spoon race then.  That should do it.  "Ladies and gentlemen, this is a special announcement, we are having a flute of a free taking competition at half time, please do not enter the pitch after the game"
What I was suggesting was that by associating the presentation with charity and by showing an extended hand the GAA would get more respect for the podium idea.  However, I now see that this would not work either because some would never get the message.

Bud, you should worry less about sponsors, PR and getting "respect" and more about the traditions and ideals of the association.

Quote from: Bud Wiser on September 09, 2009, 11:43:03 AM

QuoteAs for all the talk of podiums, sponsors and fireworks, this isn't the Heineken Cup. I couldn't care less if we're missing out on an opportunity to make a few grand.

I know you don't care about missing out on a few grand but I wasn't talking about you missing out.  What I was saying was that firstly I was in favour of the old way the presentation has been made- but - if they want to chgange it to a podium style thingy in the middle of the park there are a hell of a lot of charities that could benefit from the idea of the podium sponsorship going to their aid.  There are little girls waiting on heart op's, there are children waiting on liver transplants that could be done in other countries and countless other charities such as the Kilkenny team are lining out for this evening at 6.30pm in Nolan Park and the point I made is that an interaction between the GAA and the public in general would be good PR for all of us.  We would be the first to do it.  That would have frig all to do with the Heiniken cup or any other cup other than the McCarthy Cup and the Sam Maguire Cup.

As for Bottlethrowers post, I could not agree more, yes, mistakes have been made but we are not all perfect, including Peter McKenna.  It is from mistakes we learn and above all other people I think McKenna is the first one who will admit that.

You are Peter McKenna or else you know him or related to him and its clouded your judgement.

The experience of being on Croke Park pitch is huge, why take it away from anyone? Its the crueliest idea ever. The positives you throw out are incaparable to negatives of stopping it. Absolutely stupid, the fans wont let it happen anyway. He is codding himself if he thinks he'll stop it.

Quote from: Jinxy on September 09, 2009, 01:50:47 PM
Bud, you should worry less about sponsors, PR and getting "respect" and more about the traditions and ideals of the association.

Well in case you have missed the point altogether, which you obviously have and it doesn't surprise me, the traditions and ideals of the association include the embracing of community affairs.  Many many families have had the support of the GAA when they needed it, many charity games have been played at great commitment by the players and ordinary supporters none more recently than the tragic circumstances surrounding the recent accident in Wisconsin.  Likewise, the Kilkenny team play tonight for charity and but for circumstances that happened this morning I would have been down ther as well, although I might still get to go.

What I was suggesting has nothing to do whatsoever with Corporate sponsorship in the corporate sense as in GPA'ish.  Here is a question for you.  Just say Tyrone were in the All-Ireland Final and it was suggested that a sponsor for the podium was obtained and from that 20,000 euro would go to the Cormac Trust Fund, would you think not alone Tyrone supporters but all decent supporters from all counties would not respect it?

QuoteYou are Peter McKenna or else you know him or related to him and its clouded your judgement.

Sweet Lord living lantern living  jeeeeeezus.  What an interesting thought on your part. 

I said at the start that I was in favour of the old style presentation but would have respect for a decision that Peter McKenna would make.  I use the board here to tease out and discuss alternatives to a lot of things - but the answer to your surmising is that, no, I am not related to Peter McKenna - or Dessie Farrell either.   Do I know him?  What about people that don't know him at all making adverse comments about what he does and doesn't do?

Quote from: Bud Wiser on September 09, 2009, 02:14:57 PM

QuoteYou are Peter McKenna or else you know him or related to him and its clouded your judgement.

Sweet Lord living lantern living  jeeeeeezus.  What an interesting thought on your part. 

I said at the start that I was in favour of the old style presentation but would have respect for a decision that Peter McKenna would make.  I use the board here to tease out and discuss alternatives to a lot of things - but the answer to your surmising is that, no, I am not related to Peter McKenna - or Dessie Farrell either.   Do I know him?  What about people that don't know him at all making adverse comments about what he does and doesn't do?

Knew you know him, makes sense reading between the lines, its like your his spokeperson, your opinion is clouded by that, Cant you see it yourself?. I think you will agree the majority are against his idea, and also your argument in his favour is very weak compared to the argument and suggestions to let people on the pitch.

So you carry on something that is traditional yet maybe harmful to you or your friends, or maybe casuing thousands of euro in damage to the pitch two weeks before the AI Football final when it can be avoided. Thousands of euro that will never be chanelled back down to the clubs because of excessive insurance claims or damage to the pitch
It seems to have been traditional in some institutions in this country to abuse children or batter your wife but that did not make it right.
Time to move on and I can only echo what Bud and Orangeman have said. McKenna is doing a fine job despite the begrudgers.
Makes me wonder sometimes if theya actually play an active roll in the Association or do they just sit back and wait on the next thing they can have a dig at.

Quote from: gorm agus bui on September 09, 2009, 02:38:20 PM
So you carry on something that is traditional yet maybe harmful to you or your friends, or maybe casuing thousands of euro in damage to the pitch two weeks before the AI Football final when it can be avoided. Thousands of euro that will never be chanelled back down to the clubs because of excessive insurance claims or damage to the pitch
It seems to have been traditional in some institutions in this country to abuse children or batter your wife but that did not make it right.
Time to move on and I can only echo what Bud and Orangeman have said. McKenna is doing a fine job despite the begrudgers.
Makes me wonder sometimes if theya actually play an active roll in the Association or do they just sit back and wait on the next thing they can have a dig at.

Go back to cloud nine will ya, the worst comparison ever to make a point ::).

Yere on about a bit of insurance money and minor injuries ffs, the experience for everyone on the pitch is PRICELESS. We know the risks, everyone does so just let us get on with it.

Quote from: gorm agus bui on September 09, 2009, 02:38:20 PM
So you carry on something that is traditional yet maybe harmful to you or your friends, or maybe casuing thousands of euro in damage to the pitch two weeks before the AI Football final when it can be avoided. Thousands of euro that will never be chanelled back down to the clubs because of excessive insurance claims or damage to the pitch
It seems to have been traditional in some institutions in this country to abuse children or batter your wife but that did not make it right.
Time to move on and I can only echo what Bud and Orangeman have said. McKenna is doing a fine job despite the begrudgers.
Makes me wonder sometimes if theya actually play an active roll in the Association or do they just sit back and wait on the next thing they can have a dig at.

The mind actually boggles.... ::)

Quote from: gorm agus bui on September 09, 2009, 02:38:20 PM
So you carry on something that is traditional yet maybe harmful to you or your friends, or maybe casuing thousands of euro in damage to the pitch two weeks before the AI Football final when it can be avoided. Thousands of euro that will never be chanelled back down to the clubs because of excessive insurance claims or damage to the pitchIt seems to have been traditional in some institutions in this country to abuse children or batter your wife but that did not make it right.
Time to move on and I can only echo what Bud and Orangeman have said. McKenna is doing a fine job despite the begrudgers.
Makes me wonder sometimes if theya actually play an active roll in the Association or do they just sit back and wait on the next thing they can have a dig at.

Now that is funny. havent seen any money go to tour club from Croke park in the last 10 years. And as for the soccer and rugby money, none was recieved by any club in our county.

Quote from: Jinxy on September 09, 2009, 02:46:26 PM

Quote from: gorm agus bui on September 09, 2009, 02:38:20 PM
So you carry on something that is traditional yet maybe harmful to you or your friends, or maybe casuing thousands of euro in damage to the pitch two weeks before the AI Football final when it can be avoided. Thousands of euro that will never be chanelled back down to the clubs because of excessive insurance claims or damage to the pitch
It seems to have been traditional in some institutions in this country to abuse children or batter your wife but that did not make it right.
Time to move on and I can only echo what Bud and Orangeman have said. McKenna is doing a fine
job despite the begrudgers.
Makes me wonder sometimes if theya actually play an active roll in the Association or do they just sit back and wait on the next thing they can have a dig at.

The mind actually boggles.... ::)

Not if you have seen some of his previous posts.

QuoteIt seems to have been traditional in some institutions in this country to abuse children or batter your wife but that did not make it right.

you have to wonder about the thinking beyond someone purporting to be GAA fan comparing celebrating a victory on the pitch to abusing children.

Quote from: Bud Wiser on September 09, 2009, 02:14:57 PM

QuoteYou are Peter McKenna or else you know him or related to him and its clouded your judgement.

Sweet Lord living lantern living  jeeeeeezus.  What an interesting thought on your part. 

I said at the start that I was in favour of the old style presentation but would have respect for a decision that Peter McKenna would make.  I use the board here to tease out and discuss alternatives to a lot of things - but the answer to your surmising is that, no, I am not related to Peter McKenna - or Dessie Farrell either.   Do I know him?  What about people that don't know him at all making adverse comments about what he does and doesn't do?

What about it?
This is a GAA discussion board.
Do we have to personally know people before we can discuss them?

Quote from: gorm agus bui on September 09, 2009, 02:38:20 PM
So you carry on something that is traditional yet maybe harmful to you or your friends, or maybe casuing thousands of euro in damage to the pitch two weeks before the AI Football final when it can be avoided. Thousands of euro that will never be chanelled back down to the clubs because of excessive insurance claims or damage to the pitch
It seems to have been traditional in some institutions in this country to abuse children or batter your wife but that did not make it right.
Time to move on and I can only echo what Bud and Orangeman have said. McKenna is doing a fine job despite the begrudgers.
Makes me wonder sometimes if theya actually play an active roll in the Association or do they just sit back and wait on the next thing they can have a dig at.

1- These insurance claims talked about are pure scaremongering. I have yet to either see/hear or anyone being seriously injured.

2- Bono did far more damage to the pitch than anyone last Sunday. If they are so concerned about the pitch why in the middle of the championship season did the pitch resemble a bad junior pitch. The repairwork for that far exceeded anything that was required after last sunday.

A lot of people here are talking about the corporate sponsorship. Lets assume the Gaa sees itself as a business as it does. And the games that take place on the pitch are the product. What other company in the world would allow its product to be damaged as the Gaa did in the middle of a championship season by a rock concert? Despite giving assurances it would never happan again.
It looked bloody awful from a spectator view on TV and at the ground and was worse again to play on for the players who can't even get a training session on it. But of course if BOD wants to hold a seance before the Autumn Internationals he'll get permission to do so.
It was the equivalent of me buying a building in the IFSC and allowing a bunch of vandals to decorate the walls with their own special brand of graffiti.

At the end of the day Mc Kenna would be quite happy to allow the IRFU to take full ownership of the place and evict the Gaa for all he cares about the Gaa.

Quote from: INDIANA on September 09, 2009, 03:28:56 PM

Quote from: gorm agus bui on September 09, 2009, 02:38:20 PM
So you carry on something that is traditional yet maybe harmful to you or your friends, or maybe casuing thousands of euro in damage to the pitch two weeks before the AI Football final when it can be avoided. Thousands of euro that will never be chanelled back down to the clubs because of excessive insurance claims or damage to the pitch
It seems to have been traditional in some institutions in this country to abuse children or batter your wife but that did not make it right.
Time to move on and I can only echo what Bud and Orangeman have said. McKenna is doing a fine job despite the begrudgers.
Makes me wonder sometimes if theya actually play an active roll in the Association or do they just sit back and wait on the next thing they can have a dig at.

1- These insurance claims talked about are pure scaremongering. I have yet to either see/hear or anyone being seriously injured.

2- Bono did far more damage to the pitch than anyone last Sunday. If they are so concerned about the pitch why in the middle of the championship season did the pitch resemble a bad junior pitch. The repairwork for that far exceeded anything that was required after last sunday.

A lot of people here are talking about the corporate sponsorship. Lets assume the Gaa sees itself as a business as it does. And the games that take place on the pitch are the product. What other company in the world would allow its product to be damaged as the Gaa did in the middle of a championship season by a rock concert? Despite giving assurances it would never happan again.
It looked bloody awful from a spectator view on TV and at the ground and was worse again to play on for the players who can't even get a training session on it. But of course if BOD wants to hold a seance before the Autumn Internationals he'll get permission to do so.
It was the equivalent of me buying a building in the IFSC and allowing a bunch of vandals to decorate the walls with their own special brand of graffiti.

At the end of the day Mc Kenna would be quite happy to allow the IRFU to take full ownership of the place and evict the Gaa for all he cares about the Gaa.

There's no doubt that Mc Kenna's brief is to get maximum income from the "facility". Landsdowne Road will be trying to do the same when it comes along.

I'm not sure how Mc Kenna sees the GAA championships / leagues etc. Maybe they are a hindrance to him in that he's forced to organise the bread and butter of the "facility", i.e rock concerts and non GAA sports around less profitable and less mannerly GAA sports and supporters ??? Time to get the priorities right ?  ;)

QuoteWhat about it?
This is a GAA discussion board.
Do we have to personally know people before we can discuss them?

Jinxy, this is the last time I am going to go to the bother of taking you by the hand and explaining things to you.

It was alleged that I was related to Peter McKenna, which in itself was a stupid allegation.  It was then alleged that I know Peter McKenna which as it happens I do like I know hundreds and thousands of people but which has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic in question.  I merely made the point if knowing somebody was a crime what about those that didn't know him at all, never seen him or read about him and they make comments while I would be judged that knowing him is a reason to agree with him.  Knowing somebody has nothing to do with it, same as I know all my local TD's but can't agree with them all or vote for them all.  Can you understand that?  Probably not.

Quote from: gorm agus bui on September 09, 2009, 02:38:20 PM
So you carry on something that is traditional yet maybe harmful to you or your friends, or maybe casuing thousands of euro in damage to the pitch two weeks before the AI Football final when it can be avoided.

Kilkenny camogs and U-21 hurlers will be playing on it this sunday AFAIK so the pitch will have only a weeks grace before the football finals.


Croke park has become totally unaccessible to the vast majority of GAA fans with stewards holding up their orange fencing even at the Christy Ring final where there were more stewards required to hold the feckin thing up that there were actual fans in the stand, totally absurd and uncalled for.
The strength of the GAA has always been the club and the people who make clubs run on a daily basis, once the Mecca of all things GAA becomes out of their reach it'll be a sad day for the GAA.

Peter can busy himself generating revenue from the corporate boxes and whatever other corporate/presentation facilities which exist under the hogan stand but leave the age old traditions of pitch invasions to the real people of the GAA as I don't think he really grasps the feeling ordinary GAA people have for the right to walk on the hallowed turf.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6b/U2-Croke_Park.jpg)
The only time people should be on the pitch in Croke Park is when there is a concert.

Ask the GPA, they look after players welfare and they agree with the new proposed presentation format so why not give the podium money to them and let them have a little bash of their own with it.

Only time people should be on the pitch is a concert?  ???
Podium money????,
You talk some amount of shite Bud Weiser.
Are you that out of touch with what the vast majority of GAA members opinions are on this, or are you on a fishing expedition?
They should ban all Concerts from Croke Park from April-September,let those tools like Bono freeze in Winter if they want to,but they should not be affecting our GAA chmpionships.

Quote from: orangeman on September 09, 2009, 03:38:49 PM
There's no doubt that Mc Kenna's brief is to get maximum income from the "facility". Landsdowne Road will be trying to do the same when it comes along.

That's the way it comes across all right.

Peter McKenna voiced concerns regarding supporters coming onto the pitch as far back as March 2006. As stadium director, it's beyond question that he takes his responsibility for safety very seriously. It's just taken him a while to act on his initial opinion, I suppose. Why the sudden bull's rush to install barriers after sitting on the fence  ;) about concerns he voiced three and a half years ago? Maybe it's because he now considers stewards to be in danger from those on the Hill?

Talking of the Hill, it seems to be getting a lot of adverse publicity this week. PMc spoke of the stewarding cordon being breached there. Yesterday's indo carried an old picture of Hill 16 with fencing in place. Internationally, standing terraces are considered an impediment to crowd control and safety, whilst also being associated with hooliganism.

We've had PMc talking of stewards being assaulted at the Hill 16 end. There was talk of broken glass on the pitch, while he warned of the necessity for quick release fencing to be installed. I've no doubt it's a genuine H&S concern that's driving this, but nevertheless Hill 16 is clearly not flavour of the month this week.

I wonder what plans the Croker management have for the stadium post the new Aviva arena. A standing terrace didn't appear to go down too well with UEFA when they visited in 2006, although temporary seating was acceptable for some of the Ireland games. You have to suspect there's an underlying commercial angle of some sort, although the H&S angle is a genuine one, imho.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/champions-league-final-rating-for-fivestar-croker-109122.html

Quote from: Bud Wiser on September 09, 2009, 04:16:09 PM

QuoteWhat about it?
This is a GAA discussion board.
Do we have to personally know people before we can discuss them?

Jinxy, this is the last time I am going to go to the bother of taking you by the hand and explaining things to you.

It was alleged that I was related to Peter McKenna, which in itself was a stupid allegation.  It was then alleged that I know Peter McKenna which as it happens I do like I know hundreds and thousands of people but which has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic in question.  I merely made the point if knowing somebody was a crime what about those that didn't know him at all, never seen him or read about him and they make comments while I would be judged that knowing him is a reason to agree with him.  Knowing somebody has nothing to do with it, same as I know all my local TD's but can't agree with them all or vote for them all.  Can you understand that?  Probably not.

What an arrogant, condescending post.
I said nothing about you knowing or being related to Peter McKenna so wind your neck in.

Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on September 09, 2009, 04:36:56 PM
Only time people should be on the pitch is a concert?  ???
Podium money????,
You talk some amount of shite Bud Weiser.
Are you that out of touch with what the vast majority of GAA members opinions are on this, or are you on a fishing expedition?
They should ban all Concerts from Croke Park from April-September,let those tools like Bono freeze in Winter if they want to,but they should not be affecting our GAA chmpionships.

Correct.  If Mr. McKenna says you don't go on the pitch then you don't go on the pitch.  If you disagree with Mr. McKenna you register your concern and object.  My granny goes to matches and she always commandeers a front row seat. If she had been at the match on Sunday she would not have wanted to go on the pitch but if she was sitting in the front row and all these eejits pushing down on all the people in the front including children what was she to do if she could not get her leg over the wall? Someone will be killed I tell you.

As for the podium, I see it as a great way of doing away with the GPA demand for 5% of the income from ticket sales.  Let them own the sponsorship on it instead of the 5% and allow Desmond up to say a few words and introduce the teams. 

Quote from: Bud Wiser on September 09, 2009, 05:36:30 PM

Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on September 09, 2009, 04:36:56 PM
Only time people should be on the pitch is a concert?  ???
Podium money????,
You talk some amount of shite Bud Weiser.
Are you that out of touch with what the vast majority of GAA members opinions are on this, or are you on a fishing expedition?
They should ban all Concerts from Croke Park from April-September,let those tools like Bono freeze in Winter if they want to,but they should not be affecting our GAA chmpionships.

Correct.  If Mr. McKenna says you don't go on the pitch then you don't go on the pitch.  If you disagree with Mr. McKenna you register your concern and object.  My granny goes to matches and she always commandeers a front row seat. If she had been at the match on Sunday she would not have wanted to go on the pitch but if she was sitting in the front row and all these eejits pushing down on all the people in the front including children what was she to do if she could not get her leg over the wall? Someone will be killed I tell you.

As for the podium, I see it as a great way of doing away with the GPA demand for 5% of the income from ticket sales.  Let them own the sponsorship on it instead of the 5% and allow Desmond up to say a few words and introduce the teams.

Does Mr McKenna own Croke Park? Does Cooney own it?
Nope the GAA,an organisation whereby we are all equal members own it.
This McKenna individual seems to have some jumped up pre-conceptions as to what power he has in GAA circles.

As for your Granny sitting in the front row,Were the Kilkenny fans jumping over seats crashing into the people still sitting there,thereby seriously injuring them?If so thats disgusting behaviour that needs to be cut out. Perhaps you would be better advising your granny to take a seat in the middle of the front row of a section that is not near any of the Gates allowing entrance to the pitch. There you go problem solved.

First up.  My Granny will sit where she likes and she won't be pushed around.

QuoteThis McKenna individual seems to have some jumped up pre-conceptions as to what power he has in GAA circles.

Mr. McKenna is Stadium Director, or Director of Croke Park Stadium, he is paid a salary to do a job the very same way as any manager of any job including RTE.  We all pay for RTE, it has a director, he does his job but does not own the station.

The idea of people invading the pitch is an old tradition, but there were not 80,000 people in Croke Park at the time of the old tradition, more like half that which was some way managable.

I think the Croke Park authorities who permitted the ripping up of the sod before the  U2 concerts during GAA peak season cannot lecture AI winning fans on respecting the pitch or indeed disruption of anything - regardless of the rights and wrongs of pitche invasions.    These guys wouldnt give club teams playing in all ireland finals the opportunity to kick about on the field beforehand yet would fall quivering to their knees for the guys who hire the facilities- These are the guys who believe the national league finals arent important enough to play in their home field.  Does Croke Park provide a better service for those who pay for the facility and not those who own it?  .    The field has become their trophy, ill support those well behaved people who run onto the pitch to acclaim those who have reached greatness,  Theres are no sights more spontanaeous, more joyous in any sport in the world than the hero carried shoulder high to the steps of the Hogan stand.  As someone said earlier we are the landlords not the patron...If Mc Kenna persists on this matter i can see this all ending in tears in a modern take of John B's finest, and i wouldnt get into character assassination of the man.  We needs to facilitate those who go on the pitch better and ensure their safe passage.   

Look, it has nothing to do with anything only safety, it is not Mr. McKenna on an ego trip or trying to change old traditions without reason.
It is for Safety, including players safety.  See here: http://www.gaelicplayers.com/press/560-gpa-appeal-to-supporters (http://www.gaelicplayers.com/press/560-gpa-appeal-to-supporters)

McKenna also regularly throws out the auld 32,000 break even attendance figure, which doesn't stand up to any scrutiny at all.  Still, he might be able to throw the club junior and intermediate finals into parnell this year, if he get presidential approval.

QuoteThe idea of people invading the pitch is an old tradition, but there were not 80,000 people in Croke Park at the time of the old tradition, more like half that which was some way managable

There have been 90,000 people in Croke PK previously, did they not invade the pitch?

Peter McKenna, nor anybody else can NOT quote a break even figure based on attendance levels.  That used to be able to be done years ago but because Mr. McKenna has revolutionised Croke Park break even figures are now based on ticket prices pro-rata to team profiles, ie, the number of people that would be attracted to the game. Then there is the issue of family tickets and school prices, and of course my granny, so the actual figure of people in attendance has nothing to do with some idiotic figure like 32,314 produced by some whizz kid in the Irish Independent when he should have been reporting on the dangers of pitch invasion instead.

Yes they did and often before the game had ended! Anyway there isn't 80K people trying to get on the pitch, probably only a third of that and in the history of the GAA we've never had a serious incident in CP or any other ground that I'm aware of. unless McKenna can show us the evidence of all these injury claims I'd be in favor of retaining the pitch invasion.

Well from the very outset, and on another thread I was in favour of the older tradition.  However, I have changed my mind now. Some of the comments posted here about U2 and rugby being allowed to be played on Croke Park and people can't invade the field and put lives at risk are laughable. There was 26Million Euro allocated to national centres of excellence from rugby and soccer at Croke Park and I suppose if this is only tea money to some of ye.

Anyone that refuses to conform to a public safety instruction should be arrested.  I'll say one thing for the GPA, Desmond Farrell had the courage of his convictions to come out and support Mr. McKenna and highlight the safety concerns for his players.  Good man Dessie.

QuoteThere have been 90,000 people in Croke PK previously, did they not invade the pitch?

there was no such figure ever in Croke Park before. You are probably referring to the Down v Offaly game in 1961 - I think - when about 60,000 got into Croke Park.  As the years went on and more pints of Guinness were consumed this was talked up to 65,000.  Then Celebration Ale came out and the figure skyrocketted to 70,000 and the 80,000 and now 90,000.  In most cases these were old men that were even allowed to sit along the sideline because they were no threat to anyone after a two hundred mile round trip on a bicycle.  Today is a lot different. This is why we need the likes of Mr. McKenna and in this case Dessie Farrell to move with the times and to protect both the players and the supporters.

You've  changed your mind because of a few posts about rugby and u2? We are all concerned about patron safety and I'm personally very much in favour of income generation but I've yet to be convinced that there is an issue with crowd safety. 

Wasn't there an issue with crowd safety a few years ago when the Dub's were waiting for the 2pm Holy Hour in the pubs that never came and a game was held up for half an hour because of crowd safety. There is no difference in a couple of hundred Dubs trying to crush their way into Hill Sixteen and about five thousand people trying to force their way from all areas of the stand down to the front and onto the pitch.  You say there were no safety issues that you are aware of.  I consider Sunday's debacle to be a serious safety issue.

Stop it Bud, you're killing me!

Quote from: Bud Wiser on September 09, 2009, 04:16:09 PM

QuoteWhat about it?
This is a GAA discussion board.
Do we have to personally know people before we can discuss them?

Jinxy, this is the last time I am going to go to the bother of taking you by the hand and explaining things to you.

It was alleged that I was related to Peter McKenna, which in itself was a stupid allegation.  It was then alleged that I know Peter McKenna which as it happens I do like I know hundreds and thousands of people but which has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic in question.  I merely made the point if knowing somebody was a crime what about those that didn't know him at all, never seen him or read about him and they make comments while I would be judged that knowing him is a reason to agree with him.  Knowing somebody has nothing to do with it, same as I know all my local TD's but can't agree with them all or vote for them all.  Can you understand that?  Probably not.

Your a clown, and your embarrasing yourself at this stage. :D

Im speechless, ive never seen such a weak defence. The saddest part is your ego, the stubborness to be right in face of clearly being wrong. McKenna clearly thinks he owns the place and its sadly gone to his head and you being his friend is relevant as your bias in backing him up, basic pyschology but you keep lying to yourself. In 125 yrs no serious injury, please argue against that statstic....

Why not just put up signs, enter pitch at your own risk and put liability on the US trespassers... ;D

Or just let us on the pitch as players are in hoganstand....

Why cant there be a compromise to minimise the rush to the players? Why fencing ffs?

Will someone please think of Bud's granny.

Quote from: ONeill on September 09, 2009, 07:43:19 PM
Will someone please think of Bud's granny.

Ya stay in your seat Mrs Bud granny :D

There is a motto in H&S, you are the one responisble for your H&S.

Quote from: SLIGONIAN on September 09, 2009, 07:30:27 PM

Quote from: Bud Wiser on September 09, 2009, 04:16:09 PM

QuoteWhat about it?
This is a GAA discussion board.
Do we have to personally know people before we can discuss them?

Jinxy, this is the last time I am going to go to the bother of taking you by the hand and explaining things to you.

It was alleged that I was related to Peter McKenna, which in itself was a stupid allegation.  It was then alleged that I know Peter McKenna which as it happens I do like I know hundreds and thousands of people but which has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic in question.  I merely made the point if knowing somebody was a crime what about those that didn't know him at all, never seen him or read about him and they make comments while I would be judged that knowing him is a reason to agree with him.  Knowing somebody has nothing to do with it, same as I know all my local TD's but can't agree with them all or vote for them all.  Can you understand that?  Probably not.

Your a clown, and your embarrasing yourself at this stage. :D

Im speechless, ive never seen such a weak defence. The saddest part is your ego, the stubborness to be right in face of clearly being wrong. McKenna clearly thinks he owns the place and its sadly gone to his head and you being his friend is relevant as your bias in backing him up, basic pyschology but you keep lying to yourself. In 125 yrs no serious injury, please argue against that statstic....

Why not just put up signs, enter pitch at your own risk and put liability on the US trespassers... ;D

Or just let us on the pitch as players are in hoganstand....

Why cant there be a compromise to minimise the rush to the players? Why fencing ffs?

You are the one who is a clown, and a big one at that. Where did you pull that statistic from. You might be right if you said there was none from Sligo injured at an All-Ireland all right.  There are a couple of other mottos regarding H&S and you should go and do a safe pass course before you come on here with wild statements that there was no serious injuries in Croke Park in 125 years, because not alone are you responsible for your own health and safety, you are even more responsible for others.  Jesus wept. Next you will be saying that Peter McKenna is paying out insurance claims of millions in fraudulent claims.  How many people have died of heart attacks at games and how do you expect ambulance crews to get to them with this kind of yahooism.  Are you saying Dessie Farrell is wrong as well by registering his concern for players safety?

Quote from: Bud Wiser on September 09, 2009, 08:22:00 PM

Quote from: SLIGONIAN on September 09, 2009, 07:30:27 PM

Your a clown, and your embarrasing yourself at this stage. :D

Im speechless, ive never seen such a weak defence. The saddest part is your ego, the stubborness to be right in face of clearly being wrong. McKenna clearly thinks he owns the place and its sadly gone to his head and you being his friend is relevant as your bias in backing him up, basic pyschology but you keep lying to yourself. In 125 yrs no serious injury, please argue against that statstic....

Why not just put up signs, enter pitch at your own risk and put liability on the US trespassers... ;D

Or just let us on the pitch as players are in hoganstand....

Why cant there be a compromise to minimise the rush to the players? Why fencing ffs?

You are the one who is a clown, and a big one at that. Where did you pull that statistic from. You might be right if you said there was none from Sligo injured at an All-Ireland all right.  There are a couple of other mottos regarding H&S and you should go and do a safe pass course before you come on here with wild statements that there was no serious injuries in Croke Park in 125 years, because not alone are you responsible for your own health and safety, you are even more responsible for others.  Jesus wept. Next you will be saying that Peter McKenna is paying out insurance claims of millions in fraudulent claims.  How many people have died of heart attacks at games and how do you expect ambulance crews to get to them with this kind of yahooism.  Are you saying Dessie Farrell is wrong as well by registering his concern for players safety?

What the dickens are you talking about?

Oh sweet jeeeezus, just when I was going to switch off I have to explain again.  Right, Mr. McKenna, Director, Croke Park stadium stated that as part of fire regulations the pitch is used as access for Fire Brigade etc. Now, did you ever see the van type thingy, white, with blue flashing lights and a siren, that be an ambulance. Mostly they enter Croke Park down at the Nally/Hogan stand end.  What Mr McKenna was trying to point out was that if there was an incident in the stands access would be made difficult for fire brigade and ambulance crews. It has often happened, and as recently as the quarter finals this year in the Davin Stand that people get heart attacks, old people in particular. Does that explain the Dickens thing I was talking about.

If the GPA didn't support this new agenda that is being brought in there would be some sense in objecting to it but seeing as they are the players main representatives surely you should be backing the GPA and the players in their concerns for their own safety?  Every player in the country is in favour of this proposal by fact that the GPA have supported it so perhaps you should start supporting it too or you will have a strike on your hands and no presentation to cheer at, particularly as Cork are in the final.

Did Michael Kavanagh not say he prefers the "traditional" presentation?

Michael Kavanagh should know his place.
"Mr McKenna" is calling the shots here! :D

Quote from: Minder on September 09, 2009, 10:00:37 PM
Did Michael Kavanagh not say he prefers the "traditional" presentation?

Is Michael Kavanagh in the GPA Bud ? Has he had a change of heart ?

Michael Kavanagh has no say once Desmond makes a statement. ALL the players are represented by the GPA and, as I said, don't be surprised if there is a strike threat by the players if the presentation is not done out on the pitch. The GPA are involved in this now and it is great to see the two groups, Dessies and Peter's working together for the safety of all.

One other thing, someone posted that Granny should not sit in front of one of the gates onto the pitch. The gates is not the only area that people use to get on the pitch, they climb over the wall which is ok for them but not for children who are likely to get caught between the wall and the oncoming rush. No matter how much training an old lady of 98 does she would never clear that wall, nor should she have to.

(http://www.everythingfabiolus.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/oldlady.jpg)

granny in training for Sunday week.

This whole debacle is the fault of 2 groups of people;

1: The Dubs. Synonymous with the hill. Anything bad-press related that involves hill 16 will by association also involve the Dubs
2: Offaly. That sit-down protest in '98 has left deep emotional scars with both Criostoir O'Cuinneagh agus Peadar MicCionnaith, as well as pot-hole they still haven't been able to get rid off over by the bend between canal end and cusack stand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk7h-_7mrqs

What rankled even moreso about the latter case was that the Offaly sit-down protest came about because of an error in timekeeping by one who was also the namesake of Criostoir O'Cuinneagh. The O'Cuinneaghs couldn't show their faces in public for weeks after, such was their utter humiliation.

So forget the dubs. This is all about Offaly. Its Offaly's fault. August 23rd 1998. Thats the day this all began. Shame on you Offaly.

That video there. 1 min 25 seconds in. I'm almost positive that young lad with the Offaly hat over Brian Whelehan's shoulder is turk. Almost positive.

Glad to see that Dr Micky Loftus and Sean Kelly, both past presidents have come out today in favour of pitch invasions. Regarding attendances.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Ireland_Senior_Football_Championship#Past_winners

how long has peter mckenna been director of croke park stadium? and what did he do before this?

Quote from: clarshack on September 10, 2009, 09:46:11 AM
how long has peter mckenna been director of croke park stadium? and what did he do before this?

He was involved in getting a very large stadium in another country up and running.  Whoever headhunted him did some job.

Agree with bottlethrower, again, that something has to be done with the Hill.  Since they won't be able to go up high and back far enough for cantilever type construction I think they should make it a complete corporate level area.  Allow nobody into that area then only VIP's but not Corporate boxes, just like Premium Seats but with a bit more style like a champagne bar and a bit of prematch entertainment like pole dancers or something.  Allow in only gold credit card holders and use RFID to deduct the price of drink off their cards instead of having them queue up at bars like ordinary plebs, and above all, rename the place from Hill 16 which to visitors sounds like the name of some machine gun or a jet fighter to something more like Little Dubai or along those lines.

Bud, you're going to have to slow down a bit for some of these lads. Some of the shite being spouted here would have you banging your head on the wall. Tradition, it seems overrides everything and people's perceived right to go where they like and do what they want is more important than the right of others to do what they MUST, never mind their safety.

Where did this right to do what you like come from? I have news - it doesn't exist. As you say, in civilised societies, people who ignore public safety announcements get arrested. Only in the GAA do you have people phoning radio programmes demanding to be able to rampage where they like, when they like and over anybody they like. And your granny just has to get out of the way, if she can. If she can't - ??

And what is the justification for this demand that everyone in a crowd of 80,000 should be his/her own safety officer? Apparently, it's the fact that it feels good. Well that's it, then. We can't have people's right to feel good infringed, regardless of the consequences for others. Abandon, repeal and cancel all the laws, then. I get a grand feeling driving at 120 mph. It's even more fun when I'm drunk and I have the added challenge of a winding road. If anyone tries to stop me with some stupid little regulation I'll be on to Joe Duffy pronto. So what if I kill your granny? What was she doing out in the middle of the road while I was exercising my traditional right to do what I want?

And I love the justification that goes "nobody was ever killed before". The stupidity of offering this as a logical argument is at a level unsurpassed even on Livewhine. Who would be the first caller-uppers if someone did get killed, complaining that we had to wait for someone to get killed to be able to understand that somebody COULD get killed? Most civilized societies accept that allowing fully-grown, fit young men to gallop unrestrained down steep steps, at the bottom of which may be small children or frail elderly people is a pretty good scenario for the odd fatality. You'd think Hillsborough never happened to listen to some here.

Then there's the Michael Kavanagh argument. I'll see that and raise it the Gooch/Larry Tompkins argument. Does the fat f**ker from Tyrone's right to scream abuse into Cooper's face after he played for his county in an All-Ireland final outweigh the duty of the GAA and its members to treat its players with respect and dignity? Does the violent b**tard from Meath who clouted Tompkins after an AIF retain the right to rampage around Croke Park and assault any player he likes because it's imperative that we maintain our "traditions". That abuse and disrespect for players alone is enough, to my mind, to clinch the argument that the pitch is for the players and the stands/terraces are for the fans.

I agree fully Bud, that a large part of the problem here is PR – the GAA's Achilles heel. And I think your charity idea is excellent. It's like the difference between two signs I saw in two pubs recently. One said "Children must be off the premises by 7:30". The other said "Children are welcome until 7:30". Same message, but two different worlds of communication. "Stay off the pitch" versus "We very much appreciate your co-operation in the presentation ceremony, proceeds of which will go to the Cormac fund".

Quote from: Hardy on September 10, 2009, 11:56:48 AM
Bud, you're going to have to slow down a bit for some of these lads. Some of the shite being spouted here would have you banging your head on the wall. Tradition, it seems overrides everything and people's perceived right to go where they like and do what they want is more important than the right of others to do what they MUST, never mind their safety.

Where did this right to do what you like come from? I have news - it doesn't exist. As you say, in civilised societies, people who ignore public safety announcements get arrested. Only in the GAA do you have people phoning radio programmes demanding to be able to rampage where they like, when they like and over anybody they like. And your granny just has to get out of the way, if she can. If she can't - ??

And what is the justification for this demand that everyone in a crowd of 80,000 should be his/her own safety officer? Apparently, it's the fact that it feels good. Well that's it, then. We can't have people's right to feel good infringed, regardless of the consequences for others. Abandon, repeal and cancel all the laws, then. I get a grand feeling driving at 120 mph. It's even more fun when I'm drunk and I have the added challenge of a winding road. If anyone tries to stop me with some stupid little regulation I'll be on to Joe Duffy pronto. So what if I kill your granny? What was she doing out in the middle of the road while I was exercising my traditional right to do what I want?

And I love the justification that goes "nobody was ever killed before". The stupidity of offering this as a logical argument is at a level unsurpassed even on Livewhine. Who would be the first caller-uppers if someone did get killed, complaining that we had to wait for someone to get killed to be able to understand that somebody COULD get killed? Most civilized societies accept that allowing fully-grown, fit young men to gallop unrestrained down steep steps, at the bottom of which may be small children or frail elderly people is a pretty good scenario for the odd fatality. You'd think Hillsborough never happened to listen to some here.

Then there's the Michael Kavanagh argument. I'll see that and raise it the Gooch/Larry Tompkins argument. Does the fat f**ker from Tyrone's right to scream abuse into Cooper's fate after he played for his county in an All-Ireland final outweigh the duty of the GAA and its members to treat its players with respect and dignity? Does the violent b**tard from Meath who clouted Tompkins after an AIF retain the right to rampage around Croke Park and assault any player he likes because it's imperative that we maintain our "traditions". That abuse and disrespect for players alone is enough, to my mind, to clinch the argument that the pitch is for the players and the stands/terraces are for the fans.

I agree fully Bud, that a large part of the problem here is PR – the GAA's Achilles heel. And I think your charity idea is excellent. It's like the difference between two signs I saw in two pubs recently. One said "Children must be off the premises by 7:30". The other said "Children are welcome until 7:30". Same message, but two different worlds of communication. "Stay off the pitch" versus "We very much appreciate your co-operation in the presentation ceremony, proceeds of which will go to the Cormac fund".

Could people please stop referencing Hillsborough?
It's actually the polar opposite of the pitch invasion scenario.
Also Hardy, you COULD get killed doing a lot of things.
That's no reason to stop doing them.

Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2009, 12:03:22 PM
Could people please stop referencing Hillsborough? It's actually the polar opposite of the pitch invasion scenario.

Why? It's an example of what can happen when crowd control fails and it's the event that woke people up to the dangers when things go wrong in large crowds, to the extent that the world of mass-attendance events now accepts the terminology "post-Hollsborough".

Quote
Also Hardy, you COULD get killed doing a lot of things.
That's no reason to stop doing them.

Of course, but that's simplifying my argument. Let me put it this way: do you think the situation at the front of Hill 16 on Sunday was acceptably safe and that there was a low probability of serious injury or even fatality -with Hillsborough (sorry) in mind? You might say the situation wouldn't have arisen if the pitch invasion wasn't banned. I disagree. I've seen enough crowd crush situations to know I wouldn't want my child (or my Granny) standing at the foot of Hill 16 when the yahoos charge at the final whistle, ban or no ban.

Quote from: Hardy on September 10, 2009, 11:56:48 AM
Bud, you're going to have to slow down a bit for some of these lads. Some of the shite being spouted here would have you banging your head on the wall. Tradition, it seems overrides everything and people's perceived right to go where they like and do what they want is more important than the right of others to do what they MUST, never mind their safety.

Where did this right to do what you like come from? I have news - it doesn't exist. As you say, in civilised societies, people who ignore public safety announcements get arrested. Only in the GAA do you have people phoning radio programmes demanding to be able to rampage where they like, when they like and over anybody they like. And your granny just has to get out of the way, if she can. If she can't - ??

And what is the justification for this demand that everyone in a crowd of 80,000 should be his/her own safety officer? Apparently, it's the fact that it feels good. Well that's it, then. We can't have people's right to feel good infringed, regardless of the consequences for others. Abandon, repeal and cancel all the laws, then. I get a grand feeling driving at 120 mph. It's even more fun when I'm drunk and I have the added challenge of a winding road. If anyone tries to stop me with some stupid little regulation I'll be on to Joe Duffy pronto. So what if I kill your granny? What was she doing out in the middle of the road while I was exercising my traditional right to do what I want?

And I love the justification that goes "nobody was ever killed before". The stupidity of offering this as a logical argument is at a level unsurpassed even on Livewhine. Who would be the first caller-uppers if someone did get killed, complaining that we had to wait for someone to get killed to be able to understand that somebody COULD get killed? Most civilized societies accept that allowing fully-grown, fit young men to gallop unrestrained down steep steps, at the bottom of which may be small children or frail elderly people is a pretty good scenario for the odd fatality. You'd think Hillsborough never happened to listen to some here.

Then there's the Michael Kavanagh argument. I'll see that and raise it the Gooch/Larry Tompkins argument. Does the fat f**ker from Tyrone's right to scream abuse into Cooper's face after he played for his county in an All-Ireland final outweigh the duty of the GAA and its members to treat its players with respect and dignity? Does the violent b**tard from Meath who clouted Tompkins after an AIF retain the right to rampage around Croke Park and assault any player he likes because it's imperative that we maintain our "traditions". That abuse and disrespect for players alone is enough, to my mind, to clinch the argument that the pitch is for the players and the stands/terraces are for the fans.

I agree fully Bud, that a large part of the problem here is PR – the GAA's Achilles heel. And I think your charity idea is excellent. It's like the difference between two signs I saw in two pubs recently. One said "Children must be off the premises by 7:30". The other said "Children are welcome until 7:30". Same message, but two different worlds of communication. "Stay off the pitch" versus "We very much appreciate your co-operation in the presentation ceremony, proceeds of which will go to the Cormac fund".

I'll call the above post Waffle and Spin ::), your putting words in our mouth so to speak. We are saying no one got seriously injured, you say no got KILLED, can you see the difference and your spin to exarate it.

People perceived right to go where ever they want..did anyone say that, No, More spin.

I would say we are here in this Planet to enjoy and experience all the highs that can be reached, that to me is priceless and a way I live my life. I respect most rules, but this one is bullshit. We live in a democracy and the majority should be listened to than a couple of middle aged/old farts who try ruin the fun for all of us. None of us are the type to go on yell or hit players ffs.

If you bothered to read the posts you see most of us are saying let us on in a orderly fashion when the players are off the pitch up on the steps. Thus avoiding the above incidents and the rush.

I completely agree that the situation on Sunday was highly dangerous but that situation would not have occurred if we just let people on the pitch like we've always done (notwithstanding the half-hearted attempts to stop them which we've seen in recent years).
One of the stewards on liveline said that the fans were shouting "Plan B" at him long before the official announcement was made.
The fans fully expected to make it onto the pitch because they always had before. They became annoyed when the stewards were more forceful than usual but the aggression that was in evidence was very much a 2 way street.
Take away that aggression and sense of annoyance and you have a far safer scenario i.e the "normal" scenario.
People are not animals. They won't trample on each other just to get on the field.
The charge is usually led by kids anyway.
References to English soccer tragedies are largely irrelevant because
a) the demographics of the fans is completely different
b) the structure of the terracing is completely different i.e no fencing at the front
c) there is no associated risk of violence when large numbers of fans from opposing football or hurling teams come in contact with each other.

Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2009, 12:44:21 PM
I completely agree that the situation on Sunday was highly dangerous but that situation would not have occurred if we just let people on the pitch like we've always done (notwithstanding the half-hearted attempts to stop them which we've seen in recent years).
One of the stewards on liveline said that the fans were shouting "Plan B" at him long before the official announcement was made.
The fans fully expected to make it onto the pitch because they always had before. They became annoyed when the stewards were more forceful than usual but the aggression that was in evidence was very much a 2 way street.
Take away that aggression and sense of annoyance and you have a far safer scenario i.e the "normal" scenario.
People are not animals. They won't trample on each other just to get on the field.
The charge is usually led by kids anyway.
References to English soccer tragedies are largely irrelevant because
a) the demographics of the fans is completely different
b) the structure of the terracing is completely different i.e no fencing at the front
c) there is no associated risk of violence when large numbers of fans from opposing football or hurling teams come in contact with each other.

Exactly I remember as a young fella the stewards helping us on to the pitch and there was no risk of injury and a calm atmosphere, not much of rush, everyone knew we get on to it so people were careful even us. There was no pushing, this was 1996 after mayo beat kerry. They were extremely helpful also shouting  that everyone will get on no need to rush etc...it can be done for sure.

Treat people like human beings and they will respond accordingly.
A couple of guards to keep a sensible eye on proceedings as people enter the pitch would be far more effective from a safety point of view than 30 guards trying to hold back hundreds of fans that have no malice or ill will in their hearts save they want to get onto the pitch after the game just like they do at club games, county finals, intercounty league games etc.
I have been in Parnell Park for numerous Meath-Dublin games at different grades and it would do your heart good to see all the kids on the field at half-time with hurleys and footballs. I'd be outraged if they put a stop to this.
And make no mistake, that'll be the next step if we let insurance companies call the tune.

Fair enough Jinxy, we disagree on the crowd safety situation where large numbers of people are trying to get onto the pitch. Maybe it can be made acceptably safe, maybe it can't. I wouldn't like to be the one defending it to Joe Duffy (and to myself) if somedoby got killed. Sorry, Sligonian, maybe that's too dramatic - let's say seriously injured.

Apart from safety considerations, I much prefer the pitch presentation anyway. That way, everyone gets an equal chance to enjoy it - including those unable to get onto the pitch and the 30% or so of the attendance who are in the Hogan Stand.

Sligonian, I dpon't know where to start to respond to your stuff. I don't think I'll bother. I don't think I'll find common ground with anyone capable of presenting this as an argument:

QuoteI would say we are here in this Planet to enjoy and experience all the highs that can be reached, that to me is priceless and a way I live my life. I respect most rules, but this one is bullshit. We live in a democracy and the majority should be listened to than a couple of middle aged/old farts who try ruin the fun for all of us. None of us are the type to go on yell or hit players ffs.

Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2009, 12:58:22 PM
I have been in Parnell Park for numerous Meath-Dublin games at different grades and it would do your heart good to see all the kids on the field at half-time with hurleys and footballs. I'd be outraged if they put a stop to this.
And make no mistake, that'll be the next step if we let insurance companies call the tune.

Ah now Jinxy - and you're giving out to me about mentioning Hillsborough.

Quote from: SLIGONIAN on September 10, 2009, 12:50:57 PM

Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2009, 12:44:21 PM
I completely agree that the situation on Sunday was highly dangerous but that situation would not have occurred if we just let people on the pitch like we've always done (notwithstanding the half-hearted attempts to stop them which we've seen in recent years).
One of the stewards on liveline said that the fans were shouting "Plan B" at him long before the official announcement was made.
The fans fully expected to make it onto the pitch because they always had before. They became annoyed when the stewards were more forceful than usual but the aggression that was in evidence was very much a 2 way street.
Take away that aggression and sense of annoyance and you have a far safer scenario i.e the "normal" scenario.
People are not animals. They won't trample on each other just to get on the field.
The charge is usually led by kids anyway.
References to English soccer tragedies are largely irrelevant because
a) the demographics of the fans is completely different
b) the structure of the terracing is completely different i.e no fencing at the front
c) there is no associated risk of violence when large numbers of fans from opposing football or hurling teams come in contact with each other.

Exactly I remember as a young fella the stewards helping us on to the pitch and there was no risk of injury and a calm atmosphere, not much of rush, everyone knew we get on to it so people were careful even us. There was no pushing, this was 1996 after mayo beat kerry. They were extremely helpful also shouting  that everyone will get on no need to rush etc...it can be done for sure.

I agree completely as I said before the jingoism and scaremongering from some quarters is simply to suit vested corporate interests who can stick up nice big banners in front of the winning teams and claim some monetary compensation in return. This has nothing to do with public safety. People have been running onto the pitch for years and all of a sudden the suits want to stop it.  Advertising Money. Thats all its about.
As i said before I'm happy to take my chances- I mean there is more danger in crossing the road everyday and the statistics back that up. There is nothing to stop the GAA organising people filtering onto the pitch in an orderly fashion. But no effort is made in that regard because this is about corporate sponsorship and nothing more.

I laugh at the references to Hillsborough- it was fencing that was responsible for many lives that could have been saved that day. And Croke Park's solution is to put the fencing back up!!! With lateral thinking like that who needs a recession for an encore.

Quote from: Hardy on September 10, 2009, 11:56:48 AM
Tradition, it seems overrides everything and people's perceived right to go where they like and do what they want is more important than the right of others to do what they MUST, never mind their safety.

hmmm, its easy to throw the tradition argument back in someone's face saying we need to move on and stop being backwoods. But where do you draw the line?

to hell with that I say. The day the GAA abandons tradition is the day I abandon the GAA. The organisation is build on tradition. The organisation embraces tradition. So to dismiss tradition is to tend towards double-standards.

Quote from: bottlethrower7 on September 10, 2009, 01:10:02 PM

Quote from: Hardy on September 10, 2009, 11:56:48 AM
Tradition, it seems overrides everything and people's perceived right to go where they like and do what they want is more important than the right of others to do what they MUST, never mind their safety.

hmmm, its easy to throw the tradition argument back in someone's face saying we need to move on and stop being backwoods. But where do you draw the line?

to hell with that I say. The day the GAA abandons tradition is the day I abandon the GAA. The organisation is build on tradition. The organisation embraces tradition. So to dismiss tradition is to tend towards double-standards.

BT, that's taking spin to a new dimension. What I questioned was the raising of tradition to be sacrosanct. Where did I use the term "backwoods"? Where did I suggest abandoning tradition? Where did I dismiss tradition?

To hell with that, you say. Fair enough - but "that" is something you made up to shoot down, not anything I said.

Hardy I'm sure you were there in '99 when Graham was handed the cup in the middle of the pitch.
He might as well have been out on Jones Road there was so little sense of connection with the fans.
And we've been lucky enough to win a few All-Irelands.
I think it would be terrible for example to deny Mayo fans access to the pitch if they won an All-Ireland.

In '96 I remember wandering around the field replaying little snapshots of the game in mind thinking "This is where Brenny Reilly put over the winning point".
I felt like the lads that won it for us weren't that different from me after all and maybe someday I'd be out there wearing the green and gold.
You can't beat the feeling that we're all in it together.
Changing the presentation and after-match traditions will sever one more link between the players and the fans.
I don't think that's the way we should be heading.

Quote from: Hardy on September 10, 2009, 01:14:17 PM

Quote from: bottlethrower7 on September 10, 2009, 01:10:02 PM

Quote from: Hardy on September 10, 2009, 11:56:48 AM
Tradition, it seems overrides everything and people's perceived right to go where they like and do what they want is more important than the right of others to do what they MUST, never mind their safety.

hmmm, its easy to throw the tradition argument back in someone's face saying we need to move on and stop being backwoods. But where do you draw the line?

to hell with that I say. The day the GAA abandons tradition is the day I abandon the GAA. The organisation is build on tradition. The organisation embraces tradition. So to dismiss tradition is to tend towards double-standards.

BT, that's taking spin to a new dimension. What I questioned was the raising of tradition to be sacrosanct. Where did I use the term "backwoods"? Where did I suggest abandoning tradition? Where did I dismiss tradition?

To hell with that, you say. Fair enough - but "that" is something you made up to shoot down, not anything I said.

It was just a general point about how sometimes 'tradition' gets belittled and how sometimes those who do value it can get branded as being in the wrong. Thats all.

Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2009, 01:17:38 PMHardy I'm sure you were there in '99 when Graham was handed the cup in the middle of the pitch. He might as well have been out on Jones Road there was so little sense of connection with the fans. And we've been lucky enough to win a few All-Irelands. I think it would be terrible for example to deny Mayo fans access to the pitch if they won an All-Ireland. In '96 I remember wandering around the field replaying little snapshots of the game in mind thinking "This is where Brenny Reilly put over the winning point". I felt like the lads that won it for us weren't that different from me after all and maybe someday I'd be out there wearing the green and gold. You can't beat the feeling that we're all in it together. Changing the presentation and after-match traditions will sever one more link between the players and the fans. I don't think that's the way we should be heading.

To be honest Jinxy, the reason I'm all for the pitch presentation is because I enjoyed the '99 one most of all. I was in the top of the Cusack. I saw everything that happened, could home in on any player after the whistle, see who was shaking hands with who, see Seán running around, etc. Then, when Graham embarked on his half-hour lap of honour with the cup (another advantage - the whole celebration went on for far longer than usual) I ambled downstairs and positioned myself at the front.

Eventually Graham came along and it was my turn (I was about number 15,672) to be handed the cup, raise it over my head (him still hanging onto the bottom rim of it) and let out a big yahoo. Priceless. And I even have it on video. Never could have happened in the scrum on the pitch.

But that's all down to personal preference and I enjoyed bear-hugging Martin O'Connell and Trevor Giles in 1996 too, though I don't suppose they felt the same about it. But I think in this day and age, the Cooper and Tompkins incidents have to be remembered. The players don't deserve that.

I suppose a sensible compromise can be reached. Presentation on the pitch, so that all can see (I think the point about the 30,000 or so in the Hogan stand who see feck all is valid). Then the crowd allowed on in an orderly fashion, when things have calmed down, half of them are gone home anyway and the players are beyond the reach of eejits. Then we can kick our imaginary points from where Brenny Reilly won the AIF (some clown here recently said that was an accident!). Me, I enjoyed searching for Tyrone bloodstains on the grass and counting discarded bandages in '96.

Quote from: bottlethrower7 on September 10, 2009, 01:23:37 PM

Quote from: Hardy on September 10, 2009, 01:14:17 PM

Quote from: bottlethrower7 on September 10, 2009, 01:10:02 PM

Quote from: Hardy on September 10, 2009, 11:56:48 AM
Tradition, it seems overrides everything and people's perceived right to go where they like and do what they want is more important than the right of others to do what they MUST, never mind their safety.

hmmm, its easy to throw the tradition argument back in someone's face saying we need to move on and stop being backwoods. But where do you draw the line?

to hell with that I say. The day the GAA abandons tradition is the day I abandon the GAA. The organisation is build on tradition. The organisation embraces tradition. So to dismiss tradition is to tend towards double-standards.

BT, that's taking spin to a new dimension. What I questioned was the raising of tradition to be sacrosanct. Where did I use the term "backwoods"? Where did I suggest abandoning tradition? Where did I dismiss tradition?

To hell with that, you say. Fair enough - but "that" is something you made up to shoot down, not anything I said.

It was just a general point about how sometimes 'tradition' gets belittled and how sometimes those who do value it can get branded as being in the wrong. Thats all.

Fair enough. I'd say we occupy different positions in the spectrum of regard for tradition OK.

The problem is, there are not just tradidional standards to be conformed with now, there are European Standards as well.  At one time they tried to bring in an International Standard for Stadiums. I am not sure, I don't know and I am not saying I am right but I would assume that Croke Park being the stadium of its size would have to conform to the same European Standards as in the Premiership in terms of H&S and for Insurance.  I subscribe to an International Security Magazine A&S International.  In March this year they did a special edition on Stadiums.  There were plenty of reasons in there why I can see where Peter McKenna is coming from.

Jinxy says, treat people like human beings and they will act accordingly.  Right, lets take one situation on the basis that everyone going into Croke Park is a human being and Peter McKenna says, " Ok, listen up all you human beings out there, today is All-Ireland Final day and we want no flares or dangerous fireworks to be brought into Croke Park because they might take the eye out of someone or cause a panic and get someone trampled to death".  A drunken fan, or worse, a coke head with flares is not an ordinary thinking human being, and please don't tell me there aren't any in the GAA.

I am too lazy to find the relevant article from the magazine I have hard copy of but if anyone is interested they can look through the articles here: http://www.asmag.com/article_search_list.aspx?a=2&b=stadium (http://www.asmag.com/article_search_list.aspx?a=2&b=stadium)

One interesting idea in the copy I had was that they put up a text number on the big screen during matches and for example, if you are in the middle of a crowd of yobos with a child and someone is creating a danger you text the area where you are in to the number and security are sent there when a number of texts pop up on their screen.  Security sitting on their arses around the pitch have no idea of what is happening until its over.  Ok, so by now you can't wait to get your fingers on the keyboard again to tell me Croke Park is a gaa pitch not a soccer pitch but if you think for one minute that there are not a very small minority of potential trouble makers going to Croke Park then I disagree.  A very small minority are enough to create a dangerous situation.  I appreciate the "tradition" thing but at least let them try the alternative firt and then criticise it because it was going to be different than when it was triied before.

With regard to treating people like human beings Bud I'm talking about a crowd situation. I'm well aware that in an attendance of 82,000  there will be a good few complete dickheads. The proportion varies from county to county but we are dealing with nothing like the scale of crowd trouble that soccer has to deal with. Even domestic soccer.

Well there you have it, you agree that there are a good few plonkers out there and I am not specifically talking about Dub's, they are from every county including my own.  And what I am saying is that when the final whistle blows and some of these lads are at the back and they see others running onto the pitch all they care about is doing the same and do it they will because they do not care who they push, who they shove or climb over on the way. When someone tells me not to leave my poor granny sitting in front of one of the gates it implies that all these pitch invaders walk calmly down the aisles and out the gates onto the pitch, they don't, they climb over anything and everyone.  I did not have a problem with the old tradition as it is referred to here but I am honestly caught betwen two stools on this one in that the way it was announced was wrong and there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that if nothing at all had been said there would have been less on the pitch because I detected a form of protest in what happened on Sunday.  I see your point too Jinxy and while I was on a windup earlier I feel the answer is to at least give the stadium director a chance to see what he has to offer but if Peter McKenna can not decide what is right it should not be decided by force and safety announcements should be obeyed.

If the terracing is the problem, then do away with it. Everybody will sit in their seat and not be inclined to get out of it.


Bye,bye Hill 16 - or would that be going against so called tradition ?

Lads and lassies, Thank you for your contributions and myself  and Dessie less that Kavanagh fella, will soon make an announcement regarding the crowd control in Croke Park. By the way, somebody asked earlier where I worked before and to tell the truth it was a while ago and I think it was for Mr. Smurfit. Thank God the Dubs were not in the hurling and thank God again they are not in the football final. We have to get the control right before they get into another final, if ever.
I really enjoyed the comments and it has given me a great deal to ponder before I meet with my friend Dessie and make the final decision - the others don't count. The draft document is changing as fast as the draft NAMA document and like FF we might have to let the minnows have their say before we bully push it through.
By the way Bud we can accomodate your granny in a safe seat if at any time she feels uncomfortable. Thanks again for your sincere and informed comments

When someone runs out onto the pitch after the game, where there is a good chance they could get crushed, it's their choice to put themselves in that situation and no-one else's so how can they claim against injury.

What ever happened in the years before the redeveloped Croke Park. Were there no claims back then or where they just swept under the carpet?

Quote from: rolloutking on September 10, 2009, 02:52:17 PM
What ever happened in the years before the redeveloped Croke Park. Were there no claims back then or where they just swept under the carpet?

Ireland was a much different place back then as far as litigation goes.

Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on September 10, 2009, 02:55:21 PM

Quote from: rolloutking on September 10, 2009, 02:52:17 PM
What ever happened in the years before the redeveloped Croke Park. Were there no claims back then or where they just swept under the carpet?

Ireland was a much different place back then as far as litigation goes.

[/b]


That's right - you could get the shite knocked out of if you were lucky and worse if you were unlucky, and if you had have went home and told who did it, your parents would have give you another kicking !

Quote from: antoinse on September 10, 2009, 02:47:41 PM
Lads and lassies, Thank you for your contributions and myself  and Dessie less that Kavanagh fella, will soon make an announcement regarding the crowd control in Croke Park. By the way, somebody asked earlier where I worked before and to tell the truth it was a while ago and I think it was for Mr. Smurfit. Thank God the Dubs were not in the hurling and thank God again they are not in the football final. We have to get the control right before they get into another final, if ever.
I really enjoyed the comments and it has given me a great deal to ponder before I meet with my friend Dessie and make the final decision - the others don't count. The draft document is changing as fast as the draft NAMA document and like FF we might have to let the minnows have their say before we bully push it through.
By the way Bud we can accomodate your granny in a safe seat if at any time she feels uncomfortable. Thanks again for your sincere and informed comments

Thanks very much Peter, I guess all of us at this stage have said all we wanted to say on this topic.  I will see you for luncn next Monday or Tuesday in the usual corner of the Croke Park Hotel for a bite.  If you can manage another ticket for the Granny it would be great but as I told you the last day, she has to be near an aisle seat for to make  the quick dart to the johns because of that oul incontinence thing.

Bud, for you loyal defence of me I cannot refuse your plea. I hope your granny God bless he does not bring her friend she had with her at the Leinster final. The insurance claims rose dramatically because of the eratic use of her bloody knitting needles. Yes, I look forward to lunch again and can you make it Tuesday as we don't open on the Monday after an AIF.  You should know by now that that is the day we count the blades of grass.

Quote from: orangeman on September 10, 2009, 02:35:31 PM
If the terracing is the problem, then do away with it. Everybody will sit in their seat and not be inclined to get out of it.


Bye,bye Hill 16 - or would that be going against so called tradition ?

There's still a few years left in the hill yet as the Dubs won't want to see it's demise just yet plus the GAA know they can pack it full on big days and the tickets would be a bit cheaper but you'd not pull in the same revenue if it was seated.

Money talks even if safety wise it'd make sense.

Quote from: johnneycool on September 10, 2009, 03:54:11 PM

Quote from: orangeman on September 10, 2009, 02:35:31 PM
If the terracing is the problem, then do away with it. Everybody will sit in their seat and not be inclined to get out of it.


Bye,bye Hill 16 - or would that be going against so called tradition ?

There's still a few years left in the hill yet as the Dubs won't want to see it's demise just yet plus the GAA know they can pack it full on big days and the tickets would be a bit cheaper but you'd not pull in the same revenue if it was seated.

Money talks even if safety wise it'd make sense.

It couldn't be about money could it ? No chance. It's all to do with tradition.  ;)

The end of championship on-field rampage is one of the greatest sights of the GAA calender. Unbridled joy when player and fan are equal. And you can get an oul grope from estatic women from Meath/Cork/Kerry/Tyrone.

PETER MCKENNAS STAFF ASSAULTING FANS, PETER any chance of a comment on the below eye witness account,

Comerford slams Croke Park security "thugs"
11 September 2009

Former Kilkenny star Andy Comerford has labelled the treatment of Cats fans at Headquarters on All-Ireland final day as "disgraceful".

There were unsettling scenes on Jones Road as Black & Amber supporters poured onto the pitch to hail the historic four-in-a-row, and Comerford was not impressed by the heavy-handed tactics employed by security staff:

"It was absolutely scandalous. I looked down from the Cusack Stand after the match and I saw two or three of them thugs man-handling young lads and kicking them on the ground.

"It was absolutely disgraceful.

"The fans are as important as the players. I looked down at one stage and three lads were man-handling one young lad. They tossed him back into Hill 16 like he was a piece of paper.

"I'd like to know what the GAA top brass would say if one of their young fellas was treated like that. Young fellas are going to run onto the pitch after winning an All-Ireland"

A lot of people seem to have witnessed that particular incident.
These thugs need to be held to account.

Read todays Gaelic life breifly and Jarlath Burns alludes to an incident where a fan, Ithink he said from Tyrone but not 100% sure, punched Darragh O'Se after one of the AIFS after running on to the pitch
So that is the other side of the coin of fans showing their unbridled joy and exercisng their traditional right

In todays Irish News Mickey Harte seems In favour of keeping with "tradition"

As is Joe Brolly in GL, but I think Jarlath burns anectode is relevant to the debate

Quote from: norabeag on September 11, 2009, 12:58:45 PM
Read todays Gaelic life breifly and Jarlath Burns alludes to an incident where a fan, Ithink he said from Tyrone but not 100% sure, punched Darragh O'Se after one of the AIFS after running on to the pitch
So that is the other side of the coin of fans showing their unbridled joy and exercisng their traditional right

You have to make allowances for people from Tyrone.

Quote from: norabeag on September 11, 2009, 01:11:25 PM
As is Joe Brolly in GL, but I think Jarlath burns anectode is relevant to the debate

First I heard of Dara O'Sé being hit by a fan.
There may be an element of dramatic license on Jarlaths part.

Quote from: Jinxy on September 11, 2009, 01:48:26 PM

Quote from: norabeag on September 11, 2009, 01:11:25 PM
As is Joe Brolly in GL, but I think Jarlath burns anectode is relevant to the debate

First I heard of Dara O'Sé being hit by a fan.
There may be an element of dramatic license on Jarlaths part.

Never happened. But very timely to bring it up now.

I think a case can be made for delaying a pitch invasion until players have the opportunity to leave the pitch and a proper cordon can be set up in front of the Hogan Stand.

Quote from: armaghniac on September 11, 2009, 02:04:34 PM
I think a case can be made for delaying a pitch invasion until players have the opportunity to leave the pitch and a proper cordon can be set up in front of the Hogan Stand.

Jarlath conveniently ignored that particular possibility in his article today, as it would undermine his entire case.

He also mentions that the abortive "presentation event" was supposed to "bathe the stadium in streamers firework mines and confetti". This makes a nonsense of Peter McKenna's "coke bottle and a pair of spectacles" littering complaint on Monday.

Quote from: Jinxy on September 11, 2009, 01:48:26 PM

Quote from: norabeag on September 11, 2009, 01:11:25 PM
As is Joe Brolly in GL, but I think Jarlath burns anectode is relevant to the debate

First I heard of Dara O'Sé being hit by a fan.
There may be an element of dramatic license on Jarlaths part.

Ah well if you did not hear about it, it must not have happened then

 ::)

Quote from: cornafean on September 11, 2009, 02:14:42 PM
He also mentions that the abortive "presentation event" was supposed to "bathe the stadium in streamers firework mines and confetti". This makes a nonsense of Peter McKenna's "coke bottle and a pair of spectacles" littering complaint on Monday.

:o Mines?

Mines and confetti?

Quote from: Jinxy on September 11, 2009, 01:48:26 PM

Quote from: norabeag on September 11, 2009, 01:11:25 PM
As is Joe Brolly in GL, but I think Jarlath burns anectode is relevant to the debate

First I heard of Dara O'Sé being hit by a fan.
There may be an element of dramatic license on Jarlaths part.

Fairly certain it was Tomás rather than Darragh

Quote from: Hardy on September 11, 2009, 04:19:36 PM

Quote from: cornafean on September 11, 2009, 02:14:42 PM
He also mentions that the abortive "presentation event" was supposed to "bathe the stadium in streamers firework mines and confetti". This makes a nonsense of Peter McKenna's "coke bottle and a pair of spectacles" littering complaint on Monday.

:o Mines?

Mines and confetti?

Bit rough on the players that.

Quote from: norabeag on September 11, 2009, 12:58:45 PM
Read todays Gaelic life breifly and Jarlath Burns alludes to an incident where a fan, Ithink he said from Tyrone but not 100% sure, punched Darragh O'Se after one of the AIFS after running on to the pitch
So that is the other side of the coin of fans showing their unbridled joy and exercisng their traditional right

Of course, Jarlath Burns being so involved in Croke Park in his positions in the GAA hierarchy, would naturally be keeping onside, and so any story that will add fuel to their agenda will be produced, funny how none of these ever seemed to come to light when they happened. Like McKenna's lovely round large compensation figure, and the tales of steward's broken noses, while their own actions are ignored, truth is becoming a casualty on this matter.

Quote
p2/3 near top bud
I said at the start that I was in favour of the old style presentation but would have respect for a decision that Peter McKenna would make.

Yourself and Peter McKenna should respect the wishes of the GAA membership, not the other way around. If a GAA tradition is to be changed, someone should bring a motion to congress (that should be debated by all clubs, no sneaky deals thank you very much).

Quote
So you carry on something that is traditional yet maybe harmful to you or your friends, or maybe casuing thousands of euro in damage to the pitch two weeks before the AI Football final when it can be avoided.

<snigger> ... U2 ... pot ... kettle ... black ... too easy

Quote
Only in the GAA do you have people phoning radio programmes demanding to be able to rampage where they like, when they like

As a GAA member, Croke Park part belongs to me (and could only be built because of the efforts of the millions of volunteers down through the decades in our clubs), and surely someone should be allowed on their own land...




For the football final, we should abolise the orange fencing (who gave the Croke Park directors the mandate to do this anyways??), and simply open the gates to allow the fans safely run/walk/stroll onto the pitch. Simple.

QuoteYourself and Peter McKenna should respect the wishes of the GAA membership, not the other way around. If a GAA tradition is to be changed, someone should bring a motion to congress (that should be debated by all clubs, no sneaky deals thank you very much).

And who do you think you are then, look at the last sentence of your post.  It is wrong for Peter McKenna to make a decision but you want to come on here and dictate what is going to happen?   I won't respond to your other wild ideas other than to hope and pray that with the coutry in the state it is in you are not a shareholder in a large company that you would expect them to call an EGM if they want to paint new lines in the car park.  The management of Croke Park are there for a reason, to manage the stadium and they have already been given the authority through their appointment to do that. 

As far as my quote that you have highlighted goes, yes, I was/am in favour of the old tradition but I am also in favour of safety and when someone that is in a better position than me tell me what safety measures I should take when on their property,  I listen to them.

Last Monday night, sadly, when the Kilkenny team arrived home with the cup there was a gathering of fans in the Square and a man fell back and hit his head off steps.  That man was taken to Beaumont Hospital where he later died.  The man was 58yrs of age and today we probably have children without a father and an amount of grief for his family that ihas suddenly arrived on their doorstep because of bad crowd control that simply should not happen, or be allowed to happen.

At a guess, I would say that you and many like you on here and the likes of Eoghin Corry you wrote the greatest load of bullshit ever in yesterdays Herald are not 58 yrs of age.  Result?  No thoughts for anyone that may be elderly and caught in the queue on steep steps while fans are trying to get onto the pitch. Most of the people, including old people, who are leaving after the final whistle blows are heading UP the aisles. Supporters who want to run onto the pitch are heading DOWN the aisles.  What does that tell you?  Does it not say that there is a danger involved?  Does it not tel you that an old man can fall backwards and hit his head off the steps, or is it all fit agile young lads that are allowed into Croke Park and there is no place or safety for older people? 

I won't comment on your assertion that people will walk onto, and, wait for it, stroll onto the pitch ! !  "hello sir, how are you, it was a good game there, excuse me could I just get passed you, I am going for an ould stroll onto the pitch"  All I can say is whatever about Peter Mckenna managing CRoke Park Stadium I am glad from what I am reading on this thread that some of the contributors are not managing it.

Bud, unless you have more specific information than todays papers on that poor mans death in Kilkenny I think it's highly inappropriate for you to apportion blame.

Quote from: Jinxy on September 12, 2009, 02:02:57 PM
Bud, unless you have more specific information than todays papers on that poor mans death in Kilkenny I think it's highly inappropriate for you to apportion blame.

Agree completely.

Quote from: INDIANA on September 12, 2009, 02:05:49 PM

Quote from: Jinxy on September 12, 2009, 02:02:57 PM
Bud, unless you have more specific information than todays papers on that poor mans death in Kilkenny I think it's highly inappropriate for you to apportion blame.

Agree completely.

Why am I surprised that you agree completely? The two buddies are back together again. Did Jinxy send you a PM?

I have no further comment to make on the mans death than I have already made other than to say my heart goes out to his family and the people of Inistioge.

Any comments on the other points I made lad's?

I'd rather you removed the comment in question to be honest out of respect for the man that lost his life and the people of Inistioge.

Would you ever cop on to yourself you fool.  This incident was reported in the Irish Times, The Star and in lots of media.  Both you and Indiana have some cheek talking about respect when you try to make an issue out of it.  I referred to what happened and what was reported but I am not going to lower myself to your level by making an issue of it.   I have no further comment to make about the mans death other than that I am sorry for his family and friends. 

Don't come on here with your righteous attitude telling me what to post or remove and have a small bit of cop on.

I won't say anymore on this Bud.
You'd want to take a good look at yourself though.

Quote from: Bud Wiser on September 12, 2009, 02:32:25 PM
Would you ever cop on to yourself you fool.  This incident was reported in the Irish Times, The Star and in lots of media.  Both you and Indiana have some cheek talking about respect when you try to make an issue out of it.  I referred to what happened and what was reported but I am not going to lower myself to your level by making an issue of it.   I have no further comment to make about the mans death other than that I am sorry for his family and friends. 

Don't come on here with your righteous attitude telling me what to post or remove and have a small bit of cop on.

With all due respect Bud it wouldn't be possible for Jinxy or myself to be lower than you after that post.

Quote from: bottlethrower7 on September 09, 2009, 11:00:14 AM
I don't think McKenna is doing a good job. He has one of the easiest jobs in the country. Croke Park is the only stadium of its size so there will always be demand for its use. There is no fighting or pitching needed to get events to take place there. The corporate facilities are top-notch and with the stadium's location so close to the city, again people will always want to piggy-back onto the whole romanticism of the GAA and its history and use the facilities.

I'm sure the bottom-line figures are all fine and dandy and from that perspective hes doing the job that was asked of him. But hes not in touch with grassroots GAA, its ethos, its people, what it stands for, and some of the fundamentals that should always always be preserved. For me thats the main problem. Hurling and football teams can't get access to the pitch for a runout the week before a game, yet its no bother for soccer or rugby to get all the time they want on it. The pitch being torn up - well that just beggars belief and theres no way it can be dressed up to make it sound any way sensible - remember 1985? The Simple Minds gig, how it made shit of the pitch and how the GAA said it would never make that mistake again (even though they did in 1987 with the U2 concerts that year).

When I was a kid I went to Croke Park whenever there was any game of any description on. I could relate what was happening there with what I did myself in my home club. Some of the guys in the club worked in the stadium in various roles. The history just exuded from the place - you could almost hear echoes of Ring, Keher and Rackard. You knew this was the stadium, the very same stadium, that those people who are such important historical figures stood in generations before you.

But now. Now its this big characterless money-making entity that the majority of people playing our games have not got a hope in hell of ever playing on. Now we're lucky if we even get to walk on the sod after a game. Now we have private security firms watching your every move. Its become an intimidating, less accessible place. Its become something that kids can only dream about ever playing in. When I was a kid we had the schools finals there. We brought our hurls to games. We went down onto the pitch and pucked around until we were asked to leave. I'm not saying it should go back to that, but its becoming further and further from what it should be.

The GAA is build around the people who volunteer. Who take teams out. The players who play. The kids who turn up in their droves every saturday morning to learn the skills of hurling and football. The stadium is their/our stadium. It shouldn't be this big white elephant that now stands where our beloved Croke Park used to. And its up to Peter McKenna and the rest of those in Croke Park Teo to ensure it stays the GAA's stadium (without losing sight of what the GAA really is and stands for).

Totally agree.

Quote from: INDIANA on September 12, 2009, 02:46:30 PM

Quote from: Bud Wiser on September 12, 2009, 02:32:25 PM
Would you ever cop on to yourself you fool.  This incident was reported in the Irish Times, The Star and in lots of media.  Both you and Indiana have some cheek talking about respect when you try to make an issue out of it.  I referred to what happened and what was reported but I am not going to lower myself to your level by making an issue of it.   I have no further comment to make about the mans death other than that I am sorry for his family and friends. 

Don't come on here with your righteous attitude telling me what to post or remove and have a small bit of cop on.

With all due respect Bud it wouldn't be possible for Jinxy or myself to be lower than you after that post.

The two of ye wouldn't know anything about 'due respect' not if it jumped out of a chip or burger bag at ye in Ballybough or Ballymiun.  I made a reasonable comment about a tragic event that was reported in the papers and the reply I got was that the post I made was insulting and that I was to remove it out of respect which infers I was being disrespectful, which in my book is a serious allegation to make.  It is only the two of ye that would see reason to make the comments you have made and it tells me a lot about how ye think.

YOU directly attributed blame for the mans death to poor crowd control.
YOU were the one that introduced it into the discussion.
I don't care what your motivation was, it's entirely inappropriate in my opinion.

Quote from: Bud Wiser on September 12, 2009, 02:32:25 PM
Would you ever cop on to yourself you fool.  This incident was reported in the Irish Times, The Star and in lots of media.  Both you and Indiana have some cheek talking about respect when you try to make an issue out of it.  I referred to what happened and what was reported but I am not going to lower myself to your level by making an issue of it.   I have no further comment to make about the mans death other than that I am sorry for his family and friends. 

Don't come on here with your righteous attitude telling me what to post or remove and have a small bit of cop on.

You are being disrespectful, your using a mans death for your own agenda on crowd safety, your taking advantage of the mans death. Your the one making a issue of it as you brought it up. Look in the mirror lad seriously. Its even sadder that your not man enough to admit it, but you do the opposite and go on the defensive again. Low act. The length ye lads who want pitch invasions stopped are going too is quite shocking.

My condolescenes to his family and Kilkenny GAA.

Quote from: Bud Wiser on September 12, 2009, 03:38:15 PM

Quote from: INDIANA on September 12, 2009, 02:46:30 PM

Quote from: Bud Wiser on September 12, 2009, 02:32:25 PM
Would you ever cop on to yourself you fool.  This incident was reported in the Irish Times, The Star and in lots of media.  Both you and Indiana have some cheek talking about respect when you try to make an issue out of it.  I referred to what happened and what was reported but I am not going to lower myself to your level by making an issue of it.   I have no further comment to make about the mans death other than that I am sorry for his family and friends. 

Don't come on here with your righteous attitude telling me what to post or remove and have a small bit of cop on.

With all due respect Bud it wouldn't be possible for Jinxy or myself to be lower than you after that post.

The two of ye wouldn't know anything about 'due respect' not if it jumped out of a chip or burger bag at ye in Ballybough or Ballymiun.  I made a reasonable comment about a tragic event that was reported in the papers and the reply I got was that the post I made was insulting and that I was to remove it out of respect which infers I was being disrespectful, which in my book is a serious allegation to make.  It is only the two of ye that would see reason to make the comments you have made and it tells me a lot about how ye think.

Bud this has nothing to do with the topic- if you can't see how that post was disrespectful then I rest my case.

Who would have thought people would get so worked up over being allowed to invade a pitch.

Quote from: Jinxy on September 12, 2009, 03:47:11 PM
YOU directly attributed blame for the mans death to poor crowd control.
YOU were the one that introduced it into the discussion.
I don't care what your motivation was, it's entirely inappropriate in my opinion.

I second that.

Plan B again today

Great scenes after the game today.
That's what the GAA is all about.

Quote from: Jinxy on September 13, 2009, 06:25:23 PM
Great scenes after the game today.
That's what the GAA is all about.

Exactly, I even seen an old granny flying fit on the pitch waving her flag, wonder was it Buds ;). Great to see.

I didn't see it at all, got a frigging phone call to go out but just caught the very end of RTE signing off and from what I could see it was ok.  There is a big difference though when it is AIF day and say the Dubs were to win and you don't want to go on the field and you are trying to make your way up steps while there are hundreds coming down on top of you. I don't think anyone including the heads of Croke Park are worried about yesterdays events.

Sligonian, did you have Daddy with you again, " I was with Daddy and daddy told me" "Me and daddy"  "I said to daddy that"  .......

Quote from: ballinaman on September 12, 2009, 07:10:15 PM

Quote from: Jinxy on September 12, 2009, 03:47:11 PM
YOU directly attributed blame for the mans death to poor crowd control.
YOU were the one that introduced it into the discussion.
I don't care what your motivation was, it's entirely inappropriate in my opinion.

I second that.

I don't see what was wrong - Bud used an example to illustrate a problem.  It's more than unfortunate what happened the guy, and tragic that it should happen at what was supposed to be a happy occasion for him and his family.  But that's the point, isn't it?  With the best will in the world, not actively managing large crowds is a recipe for disaster, no matter how much we dislike it. 

Quote from: Bud Wiser on September 14, 2009, 08:56:51 AM
I didn't see it at all, got a frigging phone call to go out but just caught the very end of RTE signing off and from what I could see it was ok.  There is a big difference though when it is AIF day and say the Dubs were to win and you don't want to go on the field and you are trying to make your way up steps while there are hundreds coming down on top of you. I don't think anyone including the heads of Croke Park are worried about yesterdays events.

Sligonian, did you have Daddy with you again, " I was with Daddy and daddy told me" "Me and daddy"  "I said to daddy that"  .......

Dont get the above...wasnt at the game, im in Doha..explain the relevance to it here...I seen the game on the net...

I see the GAA have announced that they won't resist a pitch invasion next Sunday.

Quote from: Billys Boots on September 14, 2009, 09:05:05 AM

Quote from: ballinaman on September 12, 2009, 07:10:15 PM

Quote from: Jinxy on September 12, 2009, 03:47:11 PM
YOU directly attributed blame for the mans death to poor crowd control.
YOU were the one that introduced it into the discussion.
I don't care what your motivation was, it's entirely inappropriate in my opinion.

I second that.

I don't see what was wrong - Bud used an example to illustrate a problem.  It's more than unfortunate what happened the guy, and tragic that it should happen at what was supposed to be a happy occasion for him and his family.  But that's the point, isn't it?  With the best will in the world, not actively managing large crowds is a recipe for disaster, no matter how much we dislike it.

So the man died because of poor crowd control?
Where are ye getting this info from?

I don't understand the point you're making - do you have knowledge I'm not privy to?  I was talking about the point Bud was making.

You are supporting Buds claim that a man died because of poor crowd control.
There is absolutely no basis for saying that unless he has access to information the rest of us don't.
Either way, he shouldn't have introduced it into the discussion.
Bear in mind this was in a small village in Kilkenny and crowd control was probably handled by the local club.

I see (and have always seen) the point you're making.  I'm trying to point out that Bud has a point that people here are not acknowledging.  I don't know the circumstances of the death in question, and I am not trying to make a point at the expense of the unfortunate man, his family and his club.  It's worrying to me that, if (for instance a small) club is celebrating success, without appropriate risk management in relation to crowd control (which I think we all agree would be the norm), then accidents can (and will, sometimes) happen.

The broader point is that the greater the numbers in a confined space, the greater the risk.  Is it not McKenna's job to do everything in his power to try to ensure people's safety, as opposed to allow a lot of excited people the latitude to run amok (with little apparent attention to the safety of those surrounding them)?  I'm not having a go at anyone, but I don't buy the tradition thing.

Political correctness/H&S Awareness gone mad there Billy.

In every walk of life risk has to be managed. Croke park could go a long way to making pitch invasions safer than they are. It is part of the outpouring of joy on the big occassions and would seriously strip away that local attachment to the competing sides IMO. It's my job to keep myself safe and if I've kids with me it's my job to look after them as well. This whole notion that you remove something like this is crazy.

Wouldn't the stats confirm that playing hurling is many times more dangerous that any pitch invasion? Sure lets get rid of it and the world will be so much safer place for all the boys and girls to "exist" in?

Quote from: Billys Boots on September 14, 2009, 12:18:41 PM
I see (and have always seen) the point you're making.  I'm trying to point out that Bud has a point that people here are not acknowledging.  I don't know the circumstances of the death in question, and I am not trying to make a point at the expense of the unfortunate man, his family and his club.  It's worrying to me that, if (for instance a small) club is celebrating success, without appropriate risk management in relation to crowd control (which I think we all agree would be the norm), then accidents can (and will, sometimes) happen.

The broader point is that the greater the numbers in a confined space, the greater the risk.  Is it not McKenna's job to do everything in his power to try to ensure people's safety, as opposed to allow a lot of excited people the latitude to run amok (with little apparent attention to the safety of those surrounding them)?  I'm not having a go at anyone, but I don't buy the tradition thing.

Is it equally as possible that the poor man slipped on some wet paper rubbish that was lying about as opposed to poor crowd control?

I'm not trying to put a damper on anything - it's just very easy for us to criticise McKenna, as: (a) we don't have his responsibilities in the event of an accident, and (b) an awful accident hasn't happened to us or our loved ones. 

Quote from: Billys Boots on September 14, 2009, 01:13:05 PM
I'm not trying to put a damper on anything - it's just very easy for us to criticise McKenna, as: (a) we don't have his responsibilities in the event of an accident, and (b) an awful accident hasn't happened to us or our loved ones.

But Billy, it hasn't happened to anyone.
The assumption is that if we continue with pitch invasions someone will be killed.
Were does this come from?

It's not an assumption (on my part anyway), it's a fear.

Come On Billy! "Its a fear"????  :-\

Do you want to exptrapolate and consider the world you would have us living in if we reacted in this over the top manner to every fear?

Quote from: orangeman on September 14, 2009, 09:16:17 AM
I see the GAA have announced that they won't resist a pitch invasion next Sunday.

Where'd you see this?

QuoteGAA spokesperson Fergal McGill insisted: 'This doesn't mean we're giving up on keeping people in their seats.

'We're going to make another renewed effort to ensure there's no pitch invasion next Sunday because we remain seriously worried about the impact they could have on people's health and safety.

'If people aren't careful, a tragedy could happen one of these days - our position is very clear on the subject.'

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/championship/2009/0914/crokepark.html

Quote from: AFS on September 14, 2009, 07:15:59 PM

Quote from: orangeman on September 14, 2009, 09:16:17 AM
I see the GAA have announced that they won't resist a pitch invasion next Sunday.

Where'd you see this?

QuoteGAA spokesperson Fergal McGill insisted: 'This doesn't mean we're giving up on keeping people in their seats.

'We're going to make another renewed effort to ensure there's no pitch invasion next Sunday because we remain seriously worried about the impact they could have on people's health and safety.

'If people aren't careful, a tragedy could happen one of these days - our position is very clear on the subject.'

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/championship/2009/0914/crokepark.html

So that basically giving the green light to the stewards and private security to give a few digs to supporters before opening the gates........

Quote'We're going to make another renewed effort to ensure there's no pitch invasion next Sunday because we remain seriously worried about the impact they could have on people's health and safety.

This is reminisicent of what you would hear one time from British Govt spokespersons as they promised to restore "law and order".  Very ill advised and McKenna and McGill plus who ever is supporting them ( I assume Duffy and Cooney) would be well advised to forget any ideas they have of heavy handed security on Sunday or else there will be a serious incident. If they want to "keep people in their seats" then they have to leave it to next year and in the meantime start a process via clubs to get GAA members to see the merits in their arguments. I for one remain unconvinced but I would be prepared to listen....however like a lot of others I don't like being spoken down to or threatened.

Quote from: Tatler Jack on September 14, 2009, 08:27:15 PM

Quote'We're going to make another renewed effort to ensure there's no pitch invasion next Sunday because we remain seriously worried about the impact they could have on people's health and safety.

This is reminisicent of what you would hear one time from British Govt spokespersons as they promised to restore "law and order".  Very ill advised and McKenna and McGill plus who ever is supporting them ( I assume Duffy and Cooney) would be well advised to forget any ideas they have of heavy handed security on Sunday or else there will be a serious incident. If they want to "keep people in their seats" then they have to leave it to next year and in the meantime start a process via clubs to get GAA members to see the merits in their arguments. I for one remain unconvinced but I would be prepared to listen....however like a lot of others I don't like being spoken down to or threatened.

Exactly. This adversarial attitude will feed down to the hired goons standing in front of the hill and make no mistake after what is reported to have happened with that young Kilkenny supporter, people will have their eyes open.

Fans have been going onto the pitches for finals for decades and no one to my knowledge has been injured seriously. Where has all this nanny state bullshit come from? Why don't we just ban picking up the ball and call the games soccer and hockey.

Just in case some of you don't realise.....


We are all going to die sometime and we have no control of where or when that will happen in the future


People drop dead at home, in offices, building sites, warehouses, pubs, weddings, parks, supermarkets, cars, toilets, as well as at sporting venues. It's just part of life ffs. Get in the real world and balance reality out with what these hitler's are trying to do

QuotePeople drop dead at home, in offices, building sites, warehouses, pubs, weddings, parks, supermarkets, cars, toilets, as well as at sporting venues. It's just part of life ffs. Get in the real world and balance reality out with what these hitler's are trying to do

Sorry, was away for a few days and couldn't annoy anyone.  The above quote doesn't even deserve comment, but I will. Innocent people get stabbed to death, innocent people get shot, innocent peole get killed by drunk drivers, innocent people that should be protected from the people who caused their deaths which is why we have drink driving laws the very same as Health & Safety laws.  I don't know how many times I have read on this thread about tradition and no lives were lost for 125 years. The past has nothing to do with this, nothing whatsoever because the layout of Croke Park was different then, it was a different stadium the same as the crowds were different last Sunday.

I will say for the last time that I have no objection to supporters running onto the pitch to celebrate, none whatsoever once there is a safe way of doing so.  The current setup is highly unsafe especially for young children and older people who are seated at the front and do not want to go onto the pitch and have no protection from crowds forcing their way down from the back rows. Secondly, to exit the stands you have to walk up the steps like walking up a stairs and the people who want to run onto the picth are running down against you.  This is crazy stuff and the only ones that are not living in the real world are the ones who are inciting people to do this. If the supporters going onto the pitch is a ritual that is going to be continued then the GAA need to find a way of doing it safely, perhaps asking people to wait in their seats and allow anyone going onto the pitch to do so first.  Maybe the ones who are so infavour of playing russian roulette with the people in the front seats up against the wall have better ideas but supporters going up steps and meeting others coming down is not a solution and if you want to see why click on the link below and see what happeded a few days ago.  It might, just might bring you back to the real world as you call it.



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6828610.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6828610.ece)

EDIT:  To click on the above link please obtain permission from Jinxy, Indiana and Sligonian first.

Bud, I honestly don't know how this image of people charging down steps has become ingrained in your mind. I've never seen it happen. I've exited the stadium while opposing fans went on the field and never met anyone coming the opposite way at a speed faster than a brisk walk.
As to your assertion that people in the front rows get caught up in the pitch invasions I don't see how this happens. People generally go onto the pitch through the gates. Small numbers may go on from in front of the seats at the bottom of the stands but they don't climb over people to do so. They certainly don't force their way down over the rows in front like you say. This whole line about being swept onto the field by some mad tide of supporters just doesn't make sense to me as someone who has been to Croke Park many, many times and has seen pitch invasions by tens of thousands of Dublin fans without incident.
It's time to park the scare-mongering.

Look, let me make it simple for you, leaving aside the people at the front.  Question:  Is it safe to have people walking UP concrete steps to an exit having to meet spectators trying to force their way DOWN the same steps at the same time, Yes or No? 

Quote from: Bud Wiser on September 15, 2009, 08:50:11 PM
Look, let me make it simple for you, leaving aside the people at the front.  Question:  Is it safe to have people walking UP concrete steps to an exit having to meet spectators trying to force their way DOWN the same steps at the same time, Yes or No?

Do these people walking up the steps really have to do so in the 3 or 4 minutes immediately succeeding the final whistle?

I agree with you, which is why the GAA should make an announcement for people to stay in their seats as I have suggested because the answer to the question that I have asked is that it is not safe, in fact it is highly dangerous for people to be going in opposite directions on any steps.  If supporters want to go on the pitch they have to do so in a safe way. The only reason that there has not been a serious accident is simply because GAA supporters are a unique bunch of people in that both counties mingle together and there is no thuggery.

I read this a while back. Interesting article, although not entirely relevant to the pitch invasion scenario, it does dispel some of the myths about crowd situations.

Why cops should trust the wisdom of the crowds

    * 17 July 2009 by Michael Bond
    * Magazine issue 2717.

THE protests that took place on the streets of London on the eve of the G20 summit in April lived up to many people's expectations. Around 2000 protestors turned up, and were heavily marshalled by police. There was a bit of trouble, but the police tactics - specifically, the decision to corral the entire crowd into a small area near the Bank of England, an approach known as "kettling" - kept a lid on the violence.

That, at least, is the official version of events, and it reflects a belief about crowds that is shared by police, governments and to a large degree the general public across the world: that they are hotbeds of trouble and must be contained. Trouble is seen as especially likely when something goes wrong at a large gathering. Under such circumstances, the expectation is that the crowd will lose its head and all hell will break loose.

The "unruly mob" concept is usually taken as read and used as the basis for crowd control measures and evacuation procedures across the world. Yet it is almost entirely a myth. Research into how people behave at demonstrations, sports events, music festivals and other mass gatherings shows not only that crowds nearly always act in a highly rational way, but also that when facing an emergency, people in a crowd are more likely to cooperate than panic. Paradoxically, it is often actions such as kettling that lead to violence breaking out. Often, the best thing authorities can do is leave a crowd to its own devices.

"In many ways, crowds are the solution," says psychologist Stephen Reicher, who studies group behaviour at the University of St Andrews, UK. Rather than being prone to irrational behaviour and violence, members of a crowd undergo a kind of identity shift that drives them to act in the best interests of themselves and everyone around them. This identity shift is often strongest in times of danger or threat. "The 'mad mob' is not an explanation, but a fantasy," says Reicher.

All this has profound implications for policing and the management of public events. "The classic view of crowd psychology, which is still widespread, talks about the loss of selfhood, leaving people at best out of control and at worst generically violent," says Reicher. "That is not only wrong, it's also counterproductive. If you believe all crowds are irrational, and that even rational people are liable to be dangerous in them, then you'll treat them accordingly, often harshly, and stop people doing things they have a right to do. And that can lead to violence."

All that said, there's no question that being part of a group can sometimes lead people to do appalling things that they would usually abhor. Examples of crowd-fuelled violence abound, from Hutu death-squads in the Rwandan genocide to racist lynch mobs in the southern states of the US. Likewise, the cover crowds offer can attract individuals who are intent on causing trouble. We can all too easily be led astray by the influence of others (New Scientist, 14 April 2007, p 42).

However, crowd violence is actually extremely rare. "If 100 football matches happen on a Saturday and there is violence at one of them, we know which will appear on the front pages the next day," says Reicher. Widespread panic during crowd emergencies is also uncommon and only occurs in special circumstances, such as when escape routes start to close, says Tricia Wachtendorf of the Disaster Research Center at the University of Delaware in Newark. In most situations - particularly those involving large numbers of strangers - the crowd ends up behaving remarkably sensibly.

Evidence against the irrationality of crowds has been building for some time, largely from studies of emergencies. In a study to be published in the British Journal of Social Psychology (DOI: 10.1348/014466608X357893), a team led by John Drury at the University of Sussex, UK, talked to survivors of 11 crowd-based disasters or near-disasters, including the 1989 Hillsborough stadium crush that killed 96 soccer fans, and a free concert by Fatboy Slim on Brighton beach in 2002 that was swamped by 250,000 people, four times as many as expected, and led to around 100 injuries. In each case, most interviewees recalled a strong sense of unity with those around them as a result of their shared experience. Rather than being competitive or antagonistic, people did their best to be orderly and courteous - and went out of their way to help strangers. Researchers think that without such cooperation, more people could have been injured and killed.

The team found a similar pattern of solidarity and cooperative behaviour in a study of the suicide attacks in London on 7 July 2005, which led to crowds of commuters being trapped underground (International Journal of Mass Emergencies and Disasters, vol 27, p 66). "The public in general and crowds specifically are more resilient than they are given credit for," says Drury. During disasters, governments should treat them as the "fourth emergency service", he adds.

If anything, a crowd's disinclination to panic can work against it. "It's often difficult to get people to move and act," says Wachtendorf. An analysis of the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center, for example, performed by the US National Institute of Standards and Technology, showed that most people prevaricated for several minutes after the planes struck, making phone calls, filing papers or shutting down their computers before attempting to escape.

Having established that unruly mob behaviour is the exception, researchers are now getting to grips with the psychological processes that can transform hundreds or thousands of individuals into a unit. The key, according to Drury, Reicher and others, is the recognition that you share something important with those around you, which forces you to identify with them in a meaningful way. "It is a cognitive shift, a difference in self-appraisal, in understanding who you are and how you stand in relation to others," says Reicher.

The trigger is often a dramatic situational change such as a fire in a public place or aggressive police tactics at a protest march, but group solidarity can also arise from seemingly inconsequential circumstances, such as being stuck together in a train carriage. Reicher describes it as a shift towards intimacy: "People start agreeing with each other, trusting each other," he says. At the point when members of a crowd start to share a common social identity, the crowd goes from being a mere physical entity to a psychological unit, according to Clifford Stott at the University of Liverpool, UK, who specialises in the behaviour of soccer crowds.

United by circumstances

A study carried out by Drury, Reicher and David Novelli of the University of Sussex, to be published in the British Journal of Social Psychology, provides a graphic illustration of how quickly and easily we throw ourselves into "psychological crowds" united by circumstances. The researchers divided a group of volunteers into two according to whether they overestimated or underestimated the number of dots in a pattern - a deliberately arbitrary distinction. They then told each person that they would be talking to someone either from their own group or the other, and that they should arrange some chairs in preparation. Those who had been told they would be talking to a member of their own group placed the chairs on average 20 per cent closer together than those who had been told they would be talking to a member of the other group (DOI: 10.1348/014466609X449377). "We want to be closer to fellow group members, not only metaphorically but also physically, and physical proximity is a precondition for any kind of action coordination," says Reicher.

The fluidity of group psychology was also demonstrated in a 2005 experiment on English soccer fans by Mark Levine at the University of Lancaster, UK. He found that supporters of Manchester United who had been primed to think about how they felt about their team were significantly more likely to help an injured stranger if he was wearing a Manchester United shirt, rather than an unbranded shirt or one of rival team Liverpool. However, fans who were primed to think about their experience of being a football fan in general were equally likely to help strangers in Liverpool shirts and Manchester United shirts, but far less likely to help someone wearing an unbranded one (Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, vol 31, p 443). This shows the potency of group membership, and also how fluid the boundaries can be.

This also happens in the real world, resulting in group bonding which, though transient, can override social, racial and political differences. A good example is the poll tax riots in London in 1990, when protestors from a wide spectrum of backgrounds and interest groups joined forces in the face of what they saw as overly aggressive police tactics. "You had people who were previously antagonistic - anarchists, conservatives, class-war activists - who in the context of the baton charges were united in common group membership," says Stott. This temporary homogenisation is common: think of the cohesiveness of soccer fans supporting an international team who might be hostile when supporting their own local clubs.

Not everyone agrees. One criticism is that the cohesiveness of crowds is superficial, and that people preferentially draw close to those they know or are related to and remain far less attached to strangers around them. Anthony Mawson, an epidemiologist at the University of Mississippi Medical Center in Jackson, maintains that people's typical response in times of threat is to seek out people familiar to them (Public Health Reports, vol 123, p 555). Strangers can develop a shared identity only when they are together "for long enough that a sense of camaraderie develops among them", he says.

Yet studies by Drury and others suggest the bonds that form between strangers in crowds are very robust, and although people might help family members first in an emergency, they will also help others irrespective of their connection to them. "What is really of interest," says Drury, "is why so many people - strangers without any formal organisation, hierarchy or means of communication - join together and act as one."

So where does this inclination come from to empathise so strongly with others on the basis of shared fate alone? Nobody is really sure, though it appears to be uniquely human. As Mark van Vugt at the University of Kent, UK, and Justin Park at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands point out, no other species appears to have the capacity to form rapid emotional attachments to large, anonymous groups (The Psychology of Prosocial Behaviour, published by Wiley-Blackwell next month). The tendency of people to form strong social bonds while experiencing terror together also appears a universal human trait. "This is well known in traditional societies where boys going through puberty rituals in the transition to manhood are often put through frightening experiences," says Robin Dunbar, who studies the evolution of sociality at the University of Oxford.

Control and contain

What are the lessons from all this? One of the most important is that the current approach to managing crowds, which is all about control and containment, can be counterproductive. Police tend to assume that people in crowds are prone to random acts of violence and disorder, and treat them accordingly. But aggressive policing is likely to trigger an aggressive response as the crowd reacts collectively against the external threat. This is why many researchers consider kettling to be a bad idea. "You're treating the crowd indiscriminately, and that can change the psychology of the crowd, shifting it towards rather than away from violence," says Stott. He has found that low-profile policing can significantly reduce the aggressiveness of football crowds, and that if left alone they will usually police themselves.

Emergency services should also take note: in a situation such as a terrorist attack or fire, a crowd left to its own devices will often find the best solution. Attempts to intervene to prevent people panicking, such as restricting their movements, could make panic more likely. The key, says Wachtendorf, is to give crowds as much information as possible, as they are likely to use it wisely.

If you find yourself in a crowd emergency, the worst thing you can do is resist the group mentality. One of Drury's conclusions from his research into disasters is that the more people try to act individualistically - which results in competitive and disruptive behaviour - the lower everyone's chances of survival are. This is what some researchers believe happened in August 1985 when a British Airtours plane caught fire on the runway at Manchester Airport, UK, killing 55. Non-cooperative behaviour among passengers may have made it harder for people to reach the exits.

It can be hard to shake off the idea of crowds as inherently violent or dangerous, but it is worth remembering that they have also been responsible for just about every major societal change for the good in recent history, from the success of the US civil rights movement to the overthrowing of communist regimes in eastern Europe. Good leadership and individual heroics are all very well, but if you're looking for a revolution - or even just a good way out of a difficult situation - what you really need, it seems, is a crowd.

Michael Bond is a New Scientist consultant in London

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20327171.400-why-cops-should-trust-the-wisdom-of-the-crowds.html?full=true

AFS, I am banjaxed tired and I will have a read of that tomorrow but I get the gist of it. In the case of the kids that were killed regarding the link I provided above that is exacty what happened, someone was telling them to go upstairs while someone else was telling them to go down.  However, in the case of Croke Park an emergency would not arise, its a different scenario because it can be avoided before it starts and supporters running onto the pitch is a danger more than an emergency.

Yeah, just though it was interesting that studies show that people much more cooperative and orderly in crowd situations than some in this debate would have you believe.

Quote from: AFS on September 15, 2009, 11:05:15 PM
Yeah, just though it was interesting that studies show that people much more cooperative and orderly in crowd situations than some in this debate would have you believe.

Well if some of the ones that ran on the pitch for the AIHF had been co-operative and orderly they would have first of all obeyed the safety instruction and secondly they would not have snapped flags from 12yr old girls that were ready to do their little bit and broken them. The adrenalin and excitement that does be in some supporters when a final whistle blows is not associated with co-operation and orderly behaviour, if it was then supporters would be able to walk onto the pitch without creating a danger which they currently can not do.  And, also, Mr. McKenna is a very nice man !

I may have missed it - but is there direct evidence linking that poor man's death to poor crowd control?

Quote from: Bud Wiser on September 15, 2009, 11:29:08 PM

Quote from: AFS on September 15, 2009, 11:05:15 PM
Yeah, just though it was interesting that studies show that people much more cooperative and orderly in crowd situations than some in this debate would have you believe.

Well if some of the ones that ran on the pitch for the AIHF had been co-operative and orderly they would have first of all obeyed the safety instruction and secondly they would not have snapped flags from 12yr old girls that were ready to do their little bit and broken them. The adrenalin and excitement that does be in some supporters when a final whistle blows is not associated with co-operation and orderly behaviour, if it was then supporters would be able to walk onto the pitch without creating a danger which they currently can not do.  And, also, Mr. McKenna is a very nice man !

Mr. McKenna.....are you Bud Wiser by any chance???? Fair play from taking the time out to post messages on gaaboard!!

No, not at all ballinaman I am not Mr. Mckenna at all.  ;)

I just think he is the best thing since sliced bread though the way he has put Croke Park on the map.  U2 concerts, letting us watch the Brit Rugby team getting bate, a little bit of soccer and crowds after crowds turning up to see our sacred field and all the while, at least up to last year the safes were bulging down under the Hogan stand with 27 Million Euro that was distributed nationally for the betterment of our sport.

Not everything is perfect, nor everyone, including myself but as far as Croke Park is concerned it is something I am immensely proud of. The bar coded ticket system for example to stop myself and Mr Fearon from getting in free is working, the touts are less prominent, and all the while they are looking to improve the situation. So when Peter McKenna, and not just Peter McKenna but the Croke Park Management Committee decided for safety reasons to make a change to the presentation format you would think from some of the reaction in the papers and on here that the loosing team were going to be lined up against a wall and shot.  If there is to be supporters on the pitch, (apart from theskull1 or whatever poster who suggested people stay in their seats) there has not been one suggestion as to how to make the thing more safer than it is from anyonne. People differ but I still say that the current way of supporters getting on the pitch is dangerous, not to those going on but to those who do not want to go on.  Apart from all that Mr McKenna is a very nice man !

Quote from: Bud Wiser on September 16, 2009, 08:48:02 AM
You may also have missed it, which doesn't surprise me, where I said I have nothing further to say on the mans death and the reason I have nothing more to say about it should be very clear to even you but in case it isn't I will explain to you for the last time. Firstly, there are very very few people posting on the forums on this board who have disresepct for anyone.  You can see the good nature of many of the posters if you go back through all of the R.I.P. threads or where prayers were asked in certain cases.

Thanks for that Bud - I did miss where you said that.

You bought it up in a thread that was mainly about crowd control, I just wanted to clarify if the this unfortunate incident was related to poor crowd control.

Quote from: Bud Wiser on September 16, 2009, 08:48:02 AM

QuoteI may have missed it - but is there direct evidence linking that poor man's death to poor crowd control?

You may also have missed it, which doesn't surprise me, where I said I have nothing further to say on the mans death and the reason I have nothing more to say about it should be very clear to even you but in case it isn't I will explain to you for the last time. Firstly, there are very very few people posting on the forums on this board who have disresepct for anyone.  You can see the good nature of many of the posters if you go back through all of the R.I.P. threads or where prayers were asked in certain cases.  Then you have low life preaching about morals and respect one day and doing the opposite the next.  Look at the post below from Sligonian who goes to the matches with his daddy for example, and these people question my respect. ?    Now, while I made the post about the unfortunate mans death, and I sympathise with his family and friends in the most heartfelt way, if you think, or anyone else thinks I am getting into a discussion with these type of people who talk about respect then you are missing a lot more than you think you are.  I have no further comment whatsoever to make on the mans death and when I have to explain that to the likes of Sligonian who made the post below on another thread you will see why, if you are not missing anything.   

QuoteLubricants are synomous with a*se f*cking which is wide spread amoung gays I hear, it is spreading to women too though, if you have to use lube it usually a good sign of wheres she likely to take it . The pu**y is self lubricating with women but with trannies it doesnt so they use loads for both holes i hear .

There is no place for this type of post where young fellas and girls are going through the forums linked by GAA Discussion and the ones who make them are in no position to start lecturing about respect.

I backed you up on the hurling thread because I believe its a great game, and I disagree with you on here, I also disagree with your approach to making your point. Explain to me how I disrespected you.

Now the above post is clearly an attempt to incite me and assinate my character, Ive made over 1600 posts on yr in 4 or 5 yrs most on GAA Discussion and local GAA discussion. You pick out 1.

You looked through all my posts and looked at How Gay are you thread, you then decided to take it out of context, not bother mentioning the thread title was convenient, also thats it was about 2 yrs ago, hopefully ived matured a bit since and also if you look back about a couple of posts I elaborated on what someone said about lubricants but ya its probably a bit much what I said. Also it was in the GENERAL DISCUSSION section. Youve decided to post it here because you care about youngfellas and girls reading that post, you clearly have a lot of respect for them posting it again. Why post it again so they can see it so? On a thread there more likely to look at..

Also you say"look at the post below from sligonian who goes to matches with his Daddy for example , these people question my respect?" THESE PEOPLE, did my Dad question your respect? Also what does my relationship with my Dad have to do with anything on this thread or anything ive said. Absolutely no relevance, Ive already asked why on a previous post on here why you said this. I did post a thread recently about my Dad, maybe you should look at it...

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=13507.0

Also I really cant understand why your  having a go at me only, several posters were of my opinion in fairness, saying the same. Im at a loss to be honest. I think your being extremely devious and evil in your last 2 posts, there is bitterness and vindictiveness in your actions of mentioning my relationship with my Dad in slagging off and belittling it, and also going to the trouble of looking at a post I wrote a couple of yrs ago is poor form especially not mentioning the topic name a previous post also negates your argument you posting it if you so worried about kids seeing it.

Your post
"I didn't see it at all, got a frigging phone call to go out but just caught the very end of RTE signing off and from what I could see it was ok. There is a big difference though when it is AIF day and say the Dubs were to win and you don't want to go on the field and you are trying to make your way up steps while there are hundreds coming down on top of you. I don't think anyone including the heads of Croke Park are worried about yesterdays events.

Sligonian, did you have Daddy with you again, " I was with Daddy and daddy told me" "Me and daddy" "I said to daddy that" .......

Can you please for the kids sake delete your 2nd last post.

I have deleted a copy of your post that was in my second last post.  I was totally unaware of the details outlined in the link you provided.  I am sure you have removed your original post that I copied as well and I am also sure, or at least I would hope, that you retract and remove your comments that say I am "evil" and "devious" because evil or devious I am not, defensive maybe, evil? devious? 

QuoteAlso I really cant understand why your  having a go at me only,

I am not having a go at you only, I am having a go at anyone you would even dare to suggest what was alleged about me using the tragedy that happened on the night of the Kilkenny teams homecoming, and, apart from the scurrilous remarks that were made, and supported by you, there is nobody on this discussion board qualified to make them about me, not least the ones who started this debate about morality. The post has been removed and I never meant any offense to your Dad whatsoever.

I haven't read through all the posts on this thread but whether you agree or not with supporters getting on the pitch, McKenna's threat to put up fencing is bad form and a big misjudgement on his part. That's something that he'll never get away with. Fencing to control crowds at sporting events is going back to the dark ages.

Quote from: Armamike on September 16, 2009, 10:45:19 PM
I haven't read through all the posts on this thread but whether you agree or not with supporters getting on the pitch, McKenna's threat to put up fencing is bad form and a big misjudgement on his part. That's something that he'll never get away with. Fencing to control crowds at sporting events is going back to the dark ages.

Putting up fences is not an option - this was talked about in the immeidate aftermath of the hurling final - it was an over reaction.

The GAA has confirmed that the post-match presentation following Sunday's GAA Football All-Ireland Senior Championship Final will take place in the Hogan Stand.

The Association has urged all patrons to remain off the field at the end of the game in the interest of the health and safety of players, officials, stewards and spectators.


It remains to be seen whether fans take heed of the warning that, if supporters continue to pour onto the pitch in such volumes at the conclusion of a game, it could one day lead to a tragic incident.


The minor presentation will take place on the field of play, affording the winning team the opportunity to complete a lap of honour.

Quote from: Bud Wiser on September 16, 2009, 08:43:47 PM
I have deleted a copy of your post that was in my second last post.  I was totally unaware of the details outlined in the link you provided.  I am sure you have removed your original post that I copied as well and I am also sure, or at least I would hope, that you retract and remove your comments that say I am "evil" and "devious" because evil or devious I am not, defensive maybe, evil? devious? 

QuoteAlso I really cant understand why your  having a go at me only,

I am not having a go at you only, I am having a go at anyone you would even dare to suggest what was alleged about me using the tragedy that happened on the night of the Kilkenny teams homecoming, and, apart from the scurrilous remarks that were made, and supported by you, there is nobody on this discussion board qualified to make them about me, not least the ones who started this debate about morality. The post has been removed and I never meant any offense to your Dad whatsoever.

Still doesnt explain why you brought my Dad into it, I mean youve totally neglected me questioning that. I do take offence to people taking the piss and making an irrelevant belittlement of my Relationship with my Dad. Maybe Im sensitiive at this time but I just dont get it thus me questioning it. Again answer me that. Why did you bring it up into a disagreement about pitch invasions on croke park? What exactly were you trying to acheve if as you said it wasnt to cause offence? You did to both of us.

Also why did you bring up a post from 2 yrs ago. Is it relevant to this disagreement? What would you call the type of person that does that, searching through all my messages to find a bad one. Also the fact you took out of context, plus the fact you didnt post the thread heading. Devious? I think it was. Lets not forget you posted it on a gaa thread so kids or young people that didnt see the first may have this time negating your point about respect for what they see. A bit hypocritical that is.

Considering your post and your lack of apology I certainly dont take it back, SAYING YOU DIDNT MEAN TO CAUSE OFFENCE ISNT A APOLOGY. You are what you are even if you cant see it yourself.

I havent posted on here much, just pretty much agreeing with other lads point of view and I stand by my point of view. There is no relevance to KK city and Croke park in terms of crowd control. You have an agenda to stop pitch invasions and you will use every event or negative sitaution and bring it into the croke park argument so you feel right. But you are wrong IMO. And wrong to use events elsewhere as a point, to me thats opportunist and certainly I wouldnt use it as I dont believe its appropriate. Crowd control is specific to the location. KK city isnt a pitch and croke park wont have a bus driving through the crowd id assume so completely different demographics. This is hardly an attack on you is it. It is a disagreement.

QuotePutting up fences is not an option - this was talked about in the immeidate aftermath of the hurling final - it was an over reaction.

I don't think the fences of the type they had before would conform with Health & Safety and for that reason I don't think the collapsable fence they mentioned would work. Basicly what I am saying is that if one type fence does not conform, neither will the other because when do you collapse it? The person in charge of the button would have a fair ould responsibility and apart from that the cost would pay for a new clubhouse and astro pitch soemwhere.  The answer then seems to be that people stay in their seats and not go up the steps to the exits until those coming doiwn to go on the pitch have done so.

(http://dynimg.rte.ie/00029be8-674.jpg)

note: No grannies were harmed in the making of this picture.