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Cavan 4 men,"sent off" tonight in Eddie Reily,Anton Reily,David Givney and John McCutcheon,Most of these for sweet f**k all.
The referee tonight was a complete tool.
I shudder to think what  more competitive games than tonights will end up like.
Teams will end up replacing 8/9 players per game.

Is this the new yellow card thing?

I'm looking forward to watching the mess unfold tomorrow.

For such an idiotic rule change, I hope havoc prevails over the next month or so and those who make such decisions are stood down. Idiotic.

People will eventually get the message.
Even in Cavan. ;D

Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on January 03, 2009, 09:24:23 PM
Cavan 4 men,"sent off" tonight in Eddie Reily,Anton Reily,David Givney and John McCutcheon,Most of these for sweet f**k all.

Teams will end up replacing 8/9 players per game.

We have to presume they committed one of the yellow card offences??? ???
If players stopped fouling we would have less frees and no sendings off for foul play.

Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on January 03, 2009, 09:24:23 PM
Cavan 4 men,"sent off" tonight in Eddie Reily,Anton Reily,David Givney and John McCutcheon,Most of these for sweet f**k all.

they had to get sent off for something ?

Quote from: Rossfan on January 03, 2009, 09:58:30 PM
If players stopped fouling we would have less frees and no sendings off for foul play.

and a very dull game to watch.   :'(

I really cant see the new rules working. Referee's are quick enough with ticks as it is. Some referees give a tick for every free even if the player made a genuine attempt to play the ball. You could be sent of very easily for 2 attempted tackles. The new rules are going to make it very hard to tackle and make the game less physical. Theyre also going to cause delays with the ref taking time to send the player off and then time sent getting the sub on. Cant believe they were passed.

They were all attempted tackles,First offences and 4 yellow cards,
No out and out clear pulling and dragging,maybe clumsy,but tackles that may or may not even have gotten a tick/black book last year,and Now they result in the players having to be replaced.
The worst tackle by a Cavan player was a clear deliberate trip by a frustrated Mark McKeever right in front of the referee.
That only got a black book/Tick.

Tommorow will be some fun alright.

A referee's inept performance should not be used to condemn rules! I think that something should be done to change the situation where yellow cards effectively mean nothing. As the situation stood a player could pick up cautions and, as long as he was disciplined enough, there was no further sanction, or if a player picked up a yellow he was at the mercy of a cute player who could contrive to have him dismissed. I know there are holes that can be picked in this but I would be open minded about it and am happy to give it a chance in both the Mc Kenna Cup and National League.

Boys this sending off after one yellow card craic was tried in the league back in 2003 and was a farce then. It's particularly sore on corner-backs, on quite a few occasions I saw defenders coming on after the original man was yellow-carded, then the replacement who wasn't up to the pace of the game yet mistimed his first challenge and was off in a matter of minutes. I love watching football and don't see what's wrong with it, if the current rules were properly applied then there would be few problems.
Also, has anybody considered what effect these rules will have if they are evntually applied to club football. I've seen manys a junior league game or reserve match where a team maybe only has one or two subs, if boys are going to be seeing the line left right and centre then it's going to get farcical. Still it might mean this particular overweight man in his mid-thirties might see some game time for the reserves this year

Quote from: county derry post on January 03, 2009, 11:49:08 PM
Boys this sending off after one yellow card craic was tried in the league back in 2003 and was a farce then. It's particularly sore on corner-backs, on quite a few occasions I saw defenders coming on after the original man was yellow-carded, then the replacement who wasn't up to the pace of the game yet mistimed his first challenge and was off in a matter of minutes. I love watching football and don't see what's wrong with it, if the current rules were properly applied then there would be few problems.
Also, has anybody considered what effect these rules will have if they are evntually applied to club football. I've seen manys a junior league game or reserve match where a team maybe only has one or two subs, if boys are going to be seeing the line left right and centre then it's going to get farcical. Still it might mean this particular overweight man in his mid-thirties might see some game time for the reserves this year

It's a pure joke and if CB's would actually let these be discussed rather than going along with what HQ wants then maybe they would have seen these problems ahead.

Anyway in Tourlestrane tonight, four off, three for Sligo all before HT, Harrison's foul was clumsy but hardly meriting an early shower, and what Colleary and McNamara did to deserve that fate is beyond me. Actually, it isn't, and can be summed up as thus: Vincent Neary is a **** of the highest order. If he were consistent, then 4-5 Galway men would have gone, but just the one did. It's all down to how the ref interprets it, and if you have a biased hoor like Neary in charge, you're fecked. I shudder at the thought of either of the Enniscrone egotists taking charge of an Ulster game with these rules in place.

Was at the game. I didn't think Anton Reilly was sent off for a yellow! Two of the yellow's were innocent enough stuff but I am of the opinion that we should give this system a chance - no red cards in any of the three games today to my knowledge and some fast open football throughout - would Shaun O'Neill have bagged a hat-trick had the Cavan defence not been cautious?

The other thing I forgot to mention and Owenmoresider brought thoughts of it into my head when he mentioned Neary - every January we get the biggest mixed bag of ref's officiating at these competitions - usually guys starting off or early in their inter-county refereeing careers - in other words less of the 'wheat' and more of the 'chaff' - an interesting and frustrating month lies ahead!

Quote from: bigpaul on January 03, 2009, 11:23:19 PM
A referee's inept performance should not be used to condemn rules! I think that something should be done to change the situation where yellow cards effectively mean nothing. As the situation stood a player could pick up cautions and, as long as he was disciplined enough, there was no further sanction, or if a player picked up a yellow he was at the mercy of a cute player who could contrive to have him dismissed. I know there are holes that can be picked in this but I would be open minded about it and am happy to give it a chance in both the Mc Kenna Cup and National League.

Bigpaul your premise is right and that the current system would seem to be flawed as there can be 9 yellow cards handed out to a team and no sanction. However the main problem with this is the lack of conviction and consistency from our referees! Rather than taking players off for genuine challenges there should be a rule like 3 yellow cards for a team results in a penalty or we probably should have stuck with the sin bin system which did result in farcical matches 12v12 at first but if it had been given time I believe players would have come to terms with it and it wouldn't penalise lads who were just unlucky with certain tackles for a whole game... these new sanctions cannot work and we should be putting more effort into properly training our referees and then we can have an objective look at how to clean up our games.

I'm completely with Co Dery post here. There was bugger all wrong with the rules as they were / are, if they were applied properly and... consistently [the BIG if].  This lunacy of being sent off for a yellow was tried five or six years ago and was binned for the stupidity that it was. This is all about Brennan trying to save a chaotic presidency that has no legacy, unlike his predecesor (even if at least half the organisation hate him for it. In the regime before Kelly (McCague), discipline was actually OK althoiugh credit for that has to go to Duffy who was Chair of GAC at the time.  It was in that period that they tried the 'off for yellow' trick before and had the sense to abandon it. 

can't see these new rules lasting.  as someone said earlier,  refs tick everytime there is a freekick given,  they are very tick/card happy.  players have to take some responsiblity but this will just turn the game into a farce!! 

i'm going for 13 'sending offs' in mckenna cup games today.

Its going to be very tough on the players who put a lot of effort into preparing for the games. One slightly mis timed challenge 5 minutes into the game and they could be looking at getting sent off. The more I think about it it is crazy especially with some of the card friendly referees about.

1 meath player put off. Another was carded but didnt go off so the ref must have temporarily forgotten the rules

Listening to the Armagh match here, sounds like there is a lot of confusion regarding the new rules, the commentator doesn't have a clue!

Quote from: bridgegael on January 04, 2009, 09:39:06 AM
can't see these new rules lasting.  as someone said earlier,  refs tick everytime there is a freekick given,  they are very tick/card happy.  players have to take some responsiblity but this will just turn the game into a farce!! 

i'm going for 13 'sending offs' in mckenna cup games today.

Any word what the tally was?

Still lads something has to be done to the rules. Can't have the likes of Tyrone winning the All-Ireland. They must have cheated, rule change required!

Quote from: tyssam5 on January 04, 2009, 07:34:48 PM
Still lads something has to be done to the rules. Can't have the likes of Tyrone winning the All-Ireland. They must have cheated, rule change required!

::) ::) ::) ::)

Yes the GAA and indeed the world revolves around Tyrone!

I think the new rules could work if they were slightly modified.

I think too many fouls will result in yellow cards. For example I agree with the wrestling on the ground, the remonstrating with officials and high tackles resulting in a yellow but not sure about the rest.

Also the fact that 2 blacks can very quickly result in a yellow is a little ott.

If refs let more fouls go as just frees instead of black cards then the rules could work

There was nothing wrong with the rules they stood, just that the referees didnt have the balls to apply them.  The new rules makes it easier for the ref to 'dismiss' if a man can come on.   

Since they tried these new rules a few years back it seems this is more than an experiment and they are here for good this time.

Back from the Dublin V Offaly game where 4 walked and i don't think any player deserved to be off the pitch.

What is wrong with the Sin Bin ?

Quote from: kevmy on January 04, 2009, 09:15:30 PM
I think the new rules could work if they were slightly modified.

I think too many fouls will result in yellow cards. For example I agree with the wrestling on the ground, the remonstrating with officials and high tackles resulting in a yellow but not sure about the rest.

Also the fact that 2 blacks can very quickly result in a yellow is a little ott.

If refs let more fouls go as just frees instead of black cards then the rules could work

As the rules stand,as I understand, three blacks result in a dismissal with no replacement !Surely that is even more ott! I think that referees were using the black as a cop out to avoid sending players off. We all need to go and properly understand the 'old rules' before dishing out too much criticism. I was standing in front of a few fellas today and when the referee awarded a free to Armagh, when an Antrim player took a free that didn't travel 14 mtrs, they came to the conclusion that the 'hop ball' rule must have been changed too!

Quote from: bigpaul on January 05, 2009, 12:39:11 AM

Quote from: kevmy on January 04, 2009, 09:15:30 PM
I think the new rules could work if they were slightly modified.

I think too many fouls will result in yellow cards. For example I agree with the wrestling on the ground, the remonstrating with officials and high tackles resulting in a yellow but not sure about the rest.

Also the fact that 2 blacks can very quickly result in a yellow is a little ott.

If refs let more fouls go as just frees instead of black cards then the rules could work

As the rules stand,as I understand, three blacks result in a dismissal with no replacement !Surely that is even more ott! I think that referees were using the black as a cop out to avoid sending players off. We all need to go and properly understand the 'old rules' before dishing out too much criticism. I was standing in front of a few fellas today and when the referee awarded a free to Armagh, when an Antrim player took a free that didn't travel 14 mtrs, they came to the conclusion that the 'hop ball' rule must have been changed too!

Is that possible i though that two blacks resulted in a yellow!

If the rules are a joke, then this thread should be moved to a Corny One for Friday.

Quote from: cavan4ever on January 05, 2009, 08:35:43 AM
Is that possible i though that two blacks resulted in a yellow!

Yep, two blacks = one yellow, and the replacement brought on, assuming the quota of substitues hasn't already been exhausted.

They're turning the game into feckin snooker.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/championship/2009/0104/dalyp.html (http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/championship/2009/0104/dalyp.html)

The GAA's Head of Games, Pat Daly, is convinced the new disciplinary rules can help make Gaelic Games more exciting and entertaining.

Daly attended a number of ties in the pre-season competitions at the weekend, and was encouraged by what he witnessed.

After watching Queen's defeat Cavan by 3-13 to 0-12 at Breffni Park, Daly was upbeat about the experimental departure.

He was particularly enthused by the high scorelines which appear to have resulted from a reluctance on the part of the players to commit themselves to cynical, reckless or disruptive fouling.

'We were happy, basically there was more playing time, less frees, less cynicism and bigger scoring,' he said.

'I don't think anybody would have anticipated that kind of a scoreline from a McKenna Cup game.

'It will take the referees a bit of time to adjust, and it will take the players a bit of time to adjust to it.

'But the message will get through. The message here is on playing the ball, not on playing the man.'

Four players were sent off on yellow cards at the Cavan town venue.

The home side's Eddie Reilly lasted just 13 minutes, and he was followed to the dug-out by team-mates David Gibney and John McCutcheon, with QUB's Paul Courtney also making an early departure following a booking. All four players were replaced by substitutes.

'You don't want to see anybody sent off. The guys that went, the referee (Fermanagh's Martin Higgins) said he was pretty sure that they were neck-high tackles, they were deliberate fouls and the guys deserved to go, based on the rules of the day,' said Daly.

'It will take the perennial fouler a bit of time for it to sink in that "if I play my usual game here I won't be around playing it".'

But the Croke Park chief insisted that players, managers and referees will be given some leeway in the weeks ahead as they grow accustomed to the new rules, which will also apply to the National Leagues.

'I think everybody needs a bit of time, everybody needs a bit adjustment, but it was a good open game. It maybe died a bit after Queen's got their third goal, but I don't think they would have got the third goal under the old rules.

'Basically what we would be saying to referees, if the player is making a reasonable attempt to play the ball and conceded a free, just ignore that.

He added: 'It's not a black mark down against the player, and once referees get to understand that, that the guy is making a reasonable effort to play the ball and concedes a free, it doesn't come against him.

'It's only when he isn't making any effort to play the ball that he is penalised, and I think if all the referees are working on that wavelength when we get to the start of the National League, then that would be very good.'

And he cautioned fans that enjoy the less savoury aspects of the game that they are going to be disappointed in the weeks and months ahead.

'I think supporters come and expect to see a bit of digging, if I can put it that way. But if you come and expect to see a bit of digging, you'll be disappointed.

'You can't be ambivalent about the thing. You either play football, or you don't play football.'

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/pdf/newrules_footballfouls.pdf (http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/pdf/newrules_footballfouls.pdf)

And from this link, it says that there are a few infractions that only warrant a 3rd black book & not a yellow card!

Quote from: thejuice on January 04, 2009, 03:13:00 PM
1 meath player put off. Another was carded but didnt go off so the ref must have temporarily forgotten the rules

Fairly sure there was only the one yellow juice, deserved as well. Referee was fairly lenient, let a lot go and if the new rules were not in force there would have been more yellow and black cards imo. Less inclination for the ref to give a black card these days as he has to stop and get the players name, which holds up the play, wheras before he could wave his notebook in the players general direction and tick his number when he got the opportunity. Will reserve my opinion on the new rules till the league is underway...

Yellow, black, red. Safety. One foot on the ground at all times. Football is turning into snooker, but without the rough and tumble.

i hear the esteemed gerry kinneavy or whatever he's calling himself these days dished out 10 yellows over the course of 70 minutes yesterday?

good man gerry

I was at that game and I have to say that 5 Cards were deserved and 5 were OTT.  He went mad all together - have to question Ref's interpretation of the rules.  Tics or Black books would have been sufficient in most cases and a little warning.  It was frustrating coming home from Tuam after that spectacle and then watching Jonathan Mullin on about how well things went in Kildare v Wexford with clips of the Ref taking full control of the situation, TALKING to the players and ZERO yellow cards, complete OPPOSITE to Tuam sham.

Quote from: The GAA on January 05, 2009, 12:38:41 PM

i hear the esteemed gerry kinneavy or whatever he's calling himself these days dished out 10 yellows over the course of 70 minutes yesterday?

good man gerry

He was always a letter of the law man rather than a common sense ref. Most of his calls are correct technically but he never seems to be able to separate the rule book from the actual game. Exactly the type of picky ref who will fcuk up the new rules

Quote from: kevmy on January 05, 2009, 01:59:25 PM

Quote from: The GAA on January 05, 2009, 12:38:41 PM

i hear the esteemed gerry kinneavy or whatever he's calling himself these days dished out 10 yellows over the course of 70 minutes yesterday?

good man gerry

He was always a letter of the law man rather than a common sense ref. Most of his calls are correct technically but he never seems to be able to separate the rule book from the actual game. Exactly the type of picky ref who will fcuk up the new rules

I remember the days when he would give out any number of yellow cards to an individual player and still not send him off. How times have changed.


The name in bold below always sends an aul chill down the spine. Would probably say therefore that anything from 0 to 1 of those four yellows would have been the correct call.

Quote from: cornerback on January 05, 2009, 11:53:12 AM
http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/championship/2009/0104/dalyp.html (http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/championship/2009/0104/dalyp.html)

The GAA's Head of Games, Pat Daly, is convinced the new disciplinary rules can help make Gaelic Games more exciting and entertaining.

Daly attended a number of ties in the pre-season competitions at the weekend, and was encouraged by what he witnessed.

After watching Queen's defeat Cavan by 3-13 to 0-12 at Breffni Park, Daly was upbeat about the experimental departure.

He was particularly enthused by the high scorelines which appear to have resulted from a reluctance on the part of the players to commit themselves to cynical, reckless or disruptive fouling.

'We were happy, basically there was more playing time, less frees, less cynicism and bigger scoring,' he said.

'I don't think anybody would have anticipated that kind of a scoreline from a McKenna Cup game.

'It will take the referees a bit of time to adjust, and it will take the players a bit of time to adjust to it.

'But the message will get through. The message here is on playing the ball, not on playing the man.'

Four players were sent off on yellow cards at the Cavan town venue.

The home side's Eddie Reilly lasted just 13 minutes, and he was followed to the dug-out by team-mates David Gibney and John McCutcheon, with QUB's Paul Courtney also making an early departure following a booking. All four players were replaced by substitutes.

'You don't want to see anybody sent off. The guys that went, the referee (Fermanagh's Martin Higgins) said he was pretty sure that they were neck-high tackles, they were deliberate fouls and the guys deserved to go, based on the rules of the day,' said Daly.

'It will take the perennial fouler a bit of time for it to sink in that "if I play my usual game here I won't be around playing it".'

But the Croke Park chief insisted that players, managers and referees will be given some leeway in the weeks ahead as they grow accustomed to the new rules, which will also apply to the National Leagues.

'I think everybody needs a bit of time, everybody needs a bit adjustment, but it was a good open game. It maybe died a bit after Queen's got their third goal, but I don't think they would have got the third goal under the old rules.

'Basically what we would be saying to referees, if the player is making a reasonable attempt to play the ball and conceded a free, just ignore that.

He added: 'It's not a black mark down against the player, and once referees get to understand that, that the guy is making a reasonable effort to play the ball and concedes a free, it doesn't come against him.

'It's only when he isn't making any effort to play the ball that he is penalised, and I think if all the referees are working on that wavelength when we get to the start of the National League, then that would be very good.

And he cautioned fans that enjoy the less savoury aspects of the game that they are going to be disappointed in the weeks and months ahead.

'I think supporters come and expect to see a bit of digging, if I can put it that way. But if you come and expect to see a bit of digging, you'll be disappointed.

'You can't be ambivalent about the thing. You either play football, or you don't play football.'

Reading what Pat Daly is saying has me wondering am I grossly out of touch with the game of Gaelic Football. Maybe I'm a fan of this cynical, reckless and disruptive fouling and don't appreciate the beauty of watching a forward run through unimpeded on goal. Shame on me.

Quote from: magpie seanie on January 05, 2009, 02:10:19 PM
Reading what Pat Daly is saying has me wondering am I grossly out of touch with the game of Gaelic Football. Maybe I'm a fan of this cynical, reckless and disruptive fouling and don't appreciate the beauty of watching a forward run through unimpeded on goal. Shame on me.

Having claimed Tyrone as your second team, then yes maybe you are.

Spot on Seanie. Also, the assumption that high scoring automatically means good game is juvenile and further increases my fear that the game is now being redefined and potentially destroyed  by people who lack any real feeling for it or true understanding of it.

Quote from: cornerback on January 05, 2009, 11:53:12 AM
http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/championship/2009/0104/dalyp.html (http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/championship/2009/0104/dalyp.html)



'Basically what we would be saying to referees, if the player is making a reasonable attempt to play the ball and conceded a free, just ignore that.

He added: 'It's not a black mark down against the player, and once referees get to understand that, that the guy is making a reasonable effort to play the ball and concedes a free, it doesn't come against him.

'It's only when he isn't making any effort to play the ball that he is penalised, and I think if all the referees are working on that wavelength when we get to the start of the National League, then that would be very good.'

See this is the point at which it becomes inpossible for referees. Not only do they have to apply the rules of the game, but now, according to Mr Daly, they have to engage in some sort of pyschological analysis of a player to work out what his intentions were when he went to make the tackle. Is intention even in the rulebook. My understanding was that every personal foul was supposed to result in a black book with 2 fouls meaning yellow and 3 red (though obviously this tends not to happen as 7 a side is best left to Kilmacud.)

My opinion of the match I was at yesterday was that the new rules contributed to the game lacked physicality with players afraid to make challenges. I don't like to see disruptive cynical fouling even though I'd freely admit that my own county has often been guilty of it but I do enjoy seeing good physical games of football with hard honest tackling and it seems as though these new rules are designed to ensure that that sort of thing disappears.

I was at a game yesterday were a number of guys were yellow carded for two tackles, not professional fouls or third man tackles but FOULS!!!
The GAA are a joke last year it seemed that no matter what you did after one foul you got Black book then yellow no matter the nature of the offences.
I would love to see the stats over last few years Id say the amount of cards being shown is through the roof!
This whole thing is to keep some muppet in a job! Safety my A**e. People love the game for big fair hits & hard football not the stop start American Football game its becoming.
Instead of the players these days being the main event the referee seems to be & quite a few seem to be loving it!
Why not give each county a set of clearly defined rules at start of league that arent over complicated. Whats allowed & what aint!
For example:
(1) Any third man tackles is automatic Yellow card
(2)Any striking off the ball whether seen by referee, umpire or media (tv, photographer) results in ban.
(3) Bring in points system like soccer were your yellows & reds add up to points  over season eg 2 yellow 5 for red go over certain mark & you get the associated ban. This would cut out the ability of teams to play thugs who will do anything to stop teams playmakers eg Gooch etc.
(4) Have one disciplinary comittee that are the be all & end all! No bullshit appeals to get players off offences they deserved punished for! If they can be proven guilty/ or innocent by media outlets use it!

It's not the GAA's fault that cynical play has reached new levels, it's not the GAA's fault that county teams started appealing every sending off, often without any real justification. It wasn't the GAA who bitched and moaned when the sin bin was introduced, it was never the GAA who physically assaulted refs, it's not the GAA who roll around the ground holding their faces when no contact has been made. It is the GAA who have to deal with this however so I hope the GAA face down all ye moaners like they should have with the sin bin. I don't think these new rules are the best way forward but for Jesus sake give them a chance, once players get used to them it might actually achieve something. And anyone who thinks the rules are fine is deluding themselves, cynical play is a cancer on football and needs to be tackled.

so tell me this Zulu? who's fault is it?
The new system is just some mad idea that further slows up the game! The black card has simply replaced the yellow & now instead of being sent off for Red you go for a Yellow! Bet it took ages to think up that one! The new system actually promotes cynical play as instead of were you would've been a man down last year you can basically get 5 meant sent off & replace every one of them!!!!
And every problem you listed was in fact created by the GAA. I they had 1 disciplinary body there would be no issues instead we have 3/4.
The playacting thats entering the game has come about because players have realised it goes unpunished. If for example you got a 2 game ban for deliberately trying to get an opponent sent off & it was enforced you wouldn't see incidents like this!!
The GAA is its own worse enemy as much as I love the game it seems head office is dreaming up Crazy ways to pollute the game with farcical situations that only make us a laughing stock!!!

There was a deliberate ploy by the HQ to send out a message that the new rules 'worked' this weekend with a few journalists involved, no matter what happened. Red Squirrel told me. Shame on them. Thanks for the whisky. 

It's all our fault, you only have to look at this site and see lads defending the indefensible when one of their own is involved. Like I've already said I'm not sure this new system is the way to go but I'm willing to give it a chance to see how it develops, there isn't a perfect system and any system you, I or anyone else suggests would have holes in it. So we need to give this a chance and not simply complain at the first opportunity, the sin bin was rejected out of hand after only 3 weeks, had we given it a chance it might have changed the game for ever. This time we need to face down the knee jerk reactionaries and let the new rules take there course, if they clearly don't work we can drop them and nothing will be lost but at least give them a chance.

It will take time to bed down and once it does we can judge whether it is effective or not but I don't accept these new rules are as bad as some of ye are making out. And I certainly don't accept you can judge based on one weekend of games, all the players know what fouls will get them booked so I think we could very well see less of these types of fouls and that must be a good thing.

Well I was at a game yesterday that saw a guy make two tackles (one of which was borderline foul, neither malicious or deliberate & he's sitting in the stand. Nonesense!!
Just mark my words if this is the way forward you just watch how some of the more cynical teams like Armagh & Tyrone exploit it with the taking out of key men on oppositions team knowing fine well if their man does go he can be replaced yet the other team may well lose their best player to "INJURY"  >:(

I heard on newstalk there was 80 yellow cards in 28 games !

Quote from: guevara on January 05, 2009, 08:53:44 PM
Well I was at a game yesterday that saw a guy make two tackles (one of which was borderline foul, neither malicious or deliberate & he's sitting in the stand. Nonesense!!
Just mark my words if this is the way forward you just watch how some of the more cynical teams like Armagh & Tyrone exploit it with the taking out of key men on oppositions team knowing fine well if their man does go he can be replaced yet the other team may well lose their best player to "INJURY"  >:(

Would that be the same Armagh that didn't receive any yellows in their game yesterday?

Don't spoil your argument with lazy, cliched, Spillane inspired shite.

But the point is there has always been a problem in football with the tackle and now there is a problem with feigning injury. This is an attempt to tackle these problems, it may not work, in fact it may turn out to be worse but at least give it a few months to settle down and see what transpires. To do anything else is ridiculous IMO, there is nothing to be gained from scrapping these rules before they are given a chance.

Zulu it favours the stronger counties who can choose to hold back a few players and let a lesser known player "soften up" an opponent and actually be in a stronger position 20 minutes in. Thats the one flaw with it and with the cyncism employed by county teams these days we'd be naive to think that its not a possibility.

Quote from: guevara on January 05, 2009, 08:53:44 PM
Well I was at a game yesterday that saw a guy make two tackles (one of which was borderline foul, neither malicious or deliberate & he's sitting in the stand. Nonesense!!
Just mark my words if this is the way forward you just watch how some of the more cynical teams like Armagh & Tyrone exploit it with the taking out of key men on oppositions team knowing fine well if their man does go he can be replaced yet the other team may well lose their best player to "INJURY"  >:(

Do you know the rules at all? Red card infringements are still red card infringements, so if it's that bad a tackle there won't be a replacement. Ya bitter Mexican ya, oh sorry, I forgot that Kerry are so angelic on the pitch!  :P

AFS

I have an opinion of my own Idont need Spillane or any other media commentator to dictate what way that opinion should Go you numpty!
Just you watch if these rules are used in the Championship I gaurantee you now Armagh & Tyrone will be the biggest  rule benders in terms of the yellow card system. Both teams have adapted a style of play that involvess doing anything within (and outside) the rules to annoy antagonise and beat your opponent!
Ciaran McKeever , Francie Bellew enough said!

9 times out of 10 fear, an incident will only get a yellow card. you don't have to take someone out to "soften" someone up. what games have you been watching?

Indiana I don't think teams will employ that tactic myself but I agree it is a possibility, however lets see if they do, lets see how it pans out - good, bad or indifferent. To scrap these new rules before they are even given a chance is the height of stupidity IMO, there are a number of fouls that are listed as bookable fouls and as usual refs will get these wrong on occasion but they also often get it right. So if your team gets 6 players booked for these fouls and the opposition get 4 sent off it is probably fair to say the ref got 6/7 of these right so it is the players fault not the refs. Once players get used to it I think we will see fewer fouls and fewer bookings, but the main point I'd make is all of us are only speculating so rather than scrapping the rules and never finding out if they are good or bad, give them a chance. It's the only way to know if ye are right and others are wrong.

All about degrees INDIANA, if it's a bad enough tackle to injure someone (genuinely), then that should be a red every time. Roughing up has always been an element of the game, that's not to say that I condone that aspect of it, but it is a physical game. Regarding the cynical deployment of players, well, we'll just have to see how that materialises, because it's still a high risk strategy -- if the transgression is severe enough to genuinely rough someone up, there's a chance it'll be a red, and there will always be that chance. And not to mention that you'll be severely depleting your substitute resources in the event of injuries.

I think the new rules are worth a shot but with the amount of analysis teams do on each other, thats an unfortunate potential consequence.

Quote from: guevara on January 05, 2009, 09:40:51 PM

AFS

I have an opinion of my own Idont need Spillane or any other media commentator to dictate what way that opinion should Go you numpty!
Just you watch if these rules are used in the Championship I gaurantee you now Armagh & Tyrone will be the biggest  rule benders in terms of the yellow card system. Both teams have adapted a style of play that involvess doing anything within (and outside) the rules to annoy antagonise and beat your opponent!
Ciaran McKeever , Francie Bellew enough said!

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on January 05, 2009, 09:34:48 PM

Quote from: guevara on January 05, 2009, 08:53:44 PM
Well I was at a game yesterday that saw a guy make two tackles (one of which was borderline foul, neither malicious or deliberate & he's sitting in the stand. Nonesense!!
Just mark my words if this is the way forward you just watch how some of the more cynical teams like Armagh & Tyrone exploit it with the taking out of key men on oppositions team knowing fine well if their man does go he can be replaced yet the other team may well lose their best player to "INJURY"  >:(

Do you know the rules at all? Red card infringements are still red card infringements, so if it's that bad a tackle there won't be a replacement. Ya bitter Mexican ya, oh sorry, I forgot that Kerry are so angelic on the pitch!  :P

You obviously have no clue guevara. By your logic the old system would be more beneficial to cynical players as they could go out pick up yellows and stay on the pitch. As Fear points out red card offences are still red card offences, you seem to have the idea that red cards have been replaced by yellows.  :-\

No AFS your jumping to conclusions again you silly boy!!!!  ::)
In the old system usually one foul book two yellow three red (talking about proper fouls here)
New system no refs gonna send a guy off with yellow straight away for taking someone out.
Anyone with a brain can clearly see Im pointing out the new system favours exploiting the rules with underhand tactics, not the old rules you idiot!
Bed time son!

Quote from: guevara on January 05, 2009, 10:20:29 PM
No AFS your jumping to conclusions again you silly boy!!!!  ::)
In the old system usually one foul book two yellow three red (talking about proper fouls here)
New system no refs gonna send a guy off with yellow straight away for taking someone out.
Anyone with a brain can clearly see Im pointing out the new system favours exploiting the rules with underhand tactics, not the old rules you idiot!
Bed time son!

I like the way you think coming across as condescending and abusive strengthens your argument  ::)

Assuming you meant to type 'now refs...' and not 'no refs...' I see your argument, but I don't agree with it. I don't think refs will cop out of dishing out red cards for serious personal fouls in favour of yellows, which is what you seem to be suggesting. I reckon its more likely that guys who are unfortunate and mistime one tackle, like one of the Antrim lads yesterday, will end up on the line when they don't really deserve it.

AFS  he has a point in fairness, even others have acknowledged it. not that difficult to use a lesser player to thump someone in a seeming attempt to go for the ball and get a yellow . We've all done it, if we're honest. hopefully its something that won't transpire.

Quote from GNevin

QuoteI heard on newstalk there was 80 yellow cards in 28 games !

Actually 85 cards in 25 games. I was on to all referees today to compile the stats: see below

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/northern_ireland/gaelic_games/7812358.stm

Experimental rules get thumbs up 

Cavan's James Clarke and QUB's James Loughrey in McKenna Cup action
Disciplinary Task Force Chairman Liam O'Neill has praised referees for their good work in implementing the GAA's experimental rules over the weekend.

Statistics gleaned from the weekend games detail that cynical fouling was substantially reduced as a result of the rule changes.

Not one red card was shown in the 25 weekend games with a total of 85 yellow cards being brandished.

"We got great co-operation from the referees," said O'Neill.

Freelance sports journalist Cóilín Duffy compiled the statistics after the weekend games.

O'Neill welcomed the sensible approach adopted by players and officials alike.

"It went well and was administered in a professional manner in the best sense of that word. It just shows how well they (referees) prepare normally.

The players and managers also made a great effort to play the game as its meant to be played without fouls

GAA Disciplinary Task Force Chairman Liam O'Neill


"It's clear too that there was a definite challenge for them and that they responded 100 per cent."


O'Neill added his thanks to players and managements who made the effort to adopt the new system swiftly.


"The players and managers also gave 100 per cent and made a great effort to play the game as its meant to be played without fouls."


Just one game failed to produce a yellow card, with Meath official David Coldrick just issuing 11 black cards in the O'Byrne Cup at Newbridge which saw Kildare account for Wexford.


Of one concern to many of the referees surveyed was what many perceived as a grey area in the rules.


The number of black cards issued per game ranged from one in the Clare v It Tralee Waterford Crystal Cup clash at Meelick, to a maximum of 12, with some confusion over whether or not a 'ticking system' still applies for some infractions.

Overall the overriding mood among referees towards the new rules was one of satisfaction with one top-ranking referee issuing a warning to players that "it simply doesn't pay to foul".


The experimental rules will continue to come under the microscope next weekend, with 32 games down for decision.

A success in my book - cyncial fouling has really been cut down on. About 175 black books were shown

Got to disagree LG,
its a load of bullshit,
The Game was fine the way it was.

Was it? Of course there were many fine games and obviously most on this board are major football fans but I think it is fair to say that it is a game that allows cynical fouling more than most sports.

im biased though,
Cavan backs do more pulling and dragging than most,alot of the time its the only way we can stay with the Armagh/Tyrones fancy off the ball movements.
we are f**ked with these new rules.  ;D
It was a mess Saturday night,It was virtually an inter change system,Very hard to follow who was on and off.
Its going to be a mess in the National League with diving and teams  setting  out to get opposition key players yellow carded using all the dirty tricks that there are.
Thats they way i see it going anyway.

That's fair enough BM but would you not agree they should be given a chance, if your fears prove to be well founded then scrap them but they have to be given a decent run IMO, what have we got to lose? Besides ye lads might have to learn to tackle now!!

no problem with their use in McKenna/O Byrne/FBD League/McGrath Cup,

Not too optimistic how they will hold up in the competitive atmosphere of league football though.

Fewer men sent off thus fewer 15 v 14 games is a good thing IMO. And cynical foulers getting forcibly substituted is good too. I'm sure the refs will make plenty of mistakes in the opening weeks, but I'm looking forward to seeing it in the flesh a few times before coming down either way.

I found  the spin which was put on the new system interesting; that being there were no red cards given out, meaning that it is a success, but since the majority of red cards would have been administered for a second yellow, it is a disingenuous argument to put it nicely.
Have the GAA sent press officers to the same school the Lisbon Treaty Referendum Team where sent to, i.e. don't inform anyone what is really going to happen but what you wish them to believe is going to happen.

Quote from: guevara on January 05, 2009, 09:40:51 PM

AFS

I have an opinion of my own Idont need Spillane or any other media commentator to dictate what way that opinion should Go you numpty!
Just you watch if these rules are used in the Championship I gaurantee you now Armagh & Tyrone will be the biggest  rule benders in terms of the yellow card system. Both teams have adapted a style of play that involvess doing anything within (and outside) the rules to annoy antagonise and beat your opponent!
Ciaran McKeever , Francie Bellew enough said!

Ciaran McKeever weasn't booked in last year's Championship, but Armagh do have a high average.

Quote from: Zulu on January 05, 2009, 08:29:29 PM
It's all our fault, you only have to look at this site and see lads defending the indefensible when one of their own is involved. Like I've already said I'm not sure this new system is the way to go but I'm willing to give it a chance to see how it develops, there isn't a perfect system and any system you, I or anyone else suggests would have holes in it. So we need to give this a chance and not simply complain at the first opportunity, the sin bin was rejected out of hand after only 3 weeks, had we given it a chance it might have changed the game for ever. This time we need to face down the knee jerk reactionaries and let the new rules take there course, if they clearly don't work we can drop them and nothing will be lost but at least give them a chance.

It will take time to bed down and once it does we can judge whether it is effective or not but I don't accept these new rules are as bad as some of ye are making out. And I certainly don't accept you can judge based on one weekend of games, all the players know what fouls will get them booked so I think we could very well see less of these types of fouls and that must be a good thing.

The problem with that Zulu, is consistency, and that's the core problem with any rules like this. What one ref deems a yellow card, another will deem not worthy of a tick.

I'd be in favour of a system of accumulating poiints for bookings, and after 3 bookings you miss a match. It shouldn't be hard to track in this day and age.

I hate cynical fouling, and I hate diving or acting. 2 things that need to be eradicated. I can see how this is an attempt at eradicating cynical fouling, but it seems nothing has been done with the bigger cancer, which is lads flopping around on the ground like landed salmon.

Am I losing my mind, or is the Independent/GAA totally gone stupid? Read this article from the Indo today..

QuoteGAA Warning on Double Jeopardy
Players have been warned that the "two strikes and you're out" rule in relation to yellow cards still applies. Under the new experimental rules, a player sent off "on a yellow" can now be immediately replaced from a team's six substitutes. But the GAA moved yesterday to remind the 80 players hit with season-opener yellows that they are still liable to a two week suspension if the same thing happens to them again this season.

A rule that anyone who gets two yellow cards within one 12 month period must serve an automatic 2 week ban was introduced a few years ago to stop "serial" yellow card offenders. And the GAA has stressed that this sanction still applies to anyone receiving a second yellow card in the same season, despite the new rule that now allows them to be replaced for the remainder of the game.

Now, it seems to me that some eejit in the Independent has completely gotten the wrong end of the stick, or else the GAA don't know their own rules. Alternatively I'm completely off the wall with this.

As far as I am aware the two week suspension comes into play if you are SENT OFF for TWO YELLOW CARDS IN THE SAME GAME, and are sent off again for the same reason within 12 months.

With this new rule, I do not believe this can apply, as the player will never get 2 yellow card sending offs.

The only thing I can think of is that the black tick takes the place of the first yellow, but this can surely not be correct, as essentially we have 80 players walking a disciplinary tightrope already in that case.

What's going on here?

The only logic I can see in what you posted AZ is that the journalist is referring to getting a yellow card again - e.g. a second yellow in the tournament = 2 weeks suspension - I don't think he/she was referring to a second yellow card in the same game!!! - If they are they have totally lost the plot!!!

But surely a second 'single' yellow card cannot mean a 2 week suspension, unless they are viewing the original black tick as equivalent to an old yellow card? In that case, this new rule is lunacy. We've had the equivalent of 80 sendings off this week!!!

85 actually - I contacted the refs - dunno where this 80 figure is coming for!!

80/85 whatever. It's still crazy that if this is correct we have 85 lads one yellow card away from a 2 week suspension.

Quote from: AZOffaly on January 06, 2009, 03:03:08 PM
80/85 whatever. It's still crazy that if this is correct we have 85 lads one yellow card away from a 2 week suspension.

That can't be right though. I think the Indo got it wrong.

Getting two yellow cards on two separate occassions within 12 months resulted in a one match suspension. That was fair and just.

I can't believe the Indo are correct in saying that now  getting one yellow card on two separate occassions would result in a suspension.  That would be a nonsense.

Quote from: Hound on January 06, 2009, 03:58:53 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on January 06, 2009, 03:03:08 PM
80/85 whatever. It's still crazy that if this is correct we have 85 lads one yellow card away from a 2 week suspension.

That can't be right though. I think the Indo got it wrong.

Getting two yellow cards on two separate occassions within 12 months resulted in a one match suspension. That was fair and just.

I can't believe the Indo are correct in saying that now  getting one yellow card on two separate occassions would result in a suspension.  That would be a nonsense.

That's my point Hound.

One aspect that I think may be understated somewhat is the relative paucity of substitutes if they're (the six subs) going to provide cover for both the yellow cards and injuries – it's hardly a duck feather duvet of an insurance blanket.

Taking the worst (cynical) case scenario: the Kerry  ;) manager is prepared to take a chance on incurring no more than three injuries, therefore he feels that he can 'afford' to have three of the starting fifteen swapped out of the game, after they have softened up one of the opposition dangermen. This means that 1. He needs to be very sure that, whomsoever the referee may be, he doesn't brandish a red for the obvious foul that is going to rough his opposite number up 2. He needs to be sure of this on three separate occasions 3. He must be very hopeful indeed that there is adequate cover on the bench for any injuries that subsequently arise for any position on the field 4. He wins, because if he loses after such a blatant display of thuggish gamesmanship he could find himself rather shorn of support, from any quarter.

Far too many risks there for any manager worth his salt I'd say, even if he's only taking a risk with one or two of his starting fifteen. QED

The GAA are just too bloody stubborn to adopt another sports succesful system!!!!

A points system in terms of discipline would sort the whole mess out. Revert back to old "Yellow" & "Red" card system.
Giver referees a claer list of fouls that if committed reward in Yellow or Red card.
For example third man tackle yellow straight away, deliberate jersey holding yellow, striking automatic red, any sort of abusive language to ref Red.

If player receives a Yellow 3 points for Red its 5. Reach certain total you face suspension. Straight Red your Suspended.
One disciplinary body & allow players to be punished for incidents on the field even if referee misses it (Red card incidents only).
Use media to prove innocence or guilt in terms of getting boys suspended or exonerated.
If County board appeal a suspension when they know fine well the player is guilty the County board gets warning then next time it happens they are fined. Removes all the nonesense of County Boards appealing decisions to hold up bans being handed out.

Lastly remove the whole abuing of officials from game. Take Rugby example if Ref has prob he speaks to team Captains & possibly player involved. Anyone who abuses an official off straight away with a hefty ban.
You may argue some officials are crap I know I do but only way to improve the game is having the scenario were Refs can logically explain why they came to a decision without being hounded by 4 & 5 players. There is very little respect shown to them & if there were more we would have more hope of attracting guys better suited to the job eg ex players !!

QuoteThe problem with that Zulu, is consistency, and that's the core problem with any rules like this. What one ref deems a yellow card, another will deem not worthy of a tick.

Consistency will always be a problem AZ it won't be unique to this system.

QuoteA points system in terms of discipline would sort the whole mess out. Revert back to old "Yellow" & "Red" card system.
Giver referees a claer list of fouls that if committed reward in Yellow or Red card.
For example third man tackle yellow straight away, deliberate jersey holding yellow, striking automatic red, any sort of abusive language to ref Red.

If player receives a Yellow 3 points for Red its 5. Reach certain total you face suspension. Straight Red your Suspended.
One disciplinary body & allow players to be punished for incidents on the field even if referee misses it (Red card incidents only).
Use media to prove innocence or guilt in terms of getting boys suspended or exonerated.

I disagree that the above is any better than what we have now, in your system a player could commit a yellow card offense 2 or 3 times before he gets really punished, under this system he commits it once and he is gone. So I believe lads will be less inclined to commit these type of fouls thus leading to less frees and more flow to the game.

QuoteLastly remove the whole abuing of officials from game. Take Rugby example if Ref has prob he speaks to team Captains & possibly player involved. Anyone who abuses an official off straight away with a hefty ban.
You may argue some officials are crap I know I do but only way to improve the game is having the scenario were Refs can logically explain why they came to a decision without being hounded by 4 & 5 players. There is very little respect shown to them & if there were more we would have more hope of attracting guys better suited to the job eg ex players !!

I agree but I don't think comparing football to rugby is fair, rugby is an easier game to ref and it is easier to call the captains together for a chat, in football the captains could be at opposite ends of the field, this type of craic would take too much time and captains have too little influence anyway.

Rugby easier to ref than GAA?
I agree to differ. Rugby has a lot more contact, contact is encouraged in gaa its best to avoid contact.

But this aint about Rugby! Far to many guys these days are getting booked not because they are deliberately fouling players its because they have made two or three fouls & its seen by refs that one black book two your booked ( in old system)
There is no intepretation from refs to say " ok I thought the player was genuinely trying to play the ball there" or "ok it was foul but not intended" then I wont tick or book him. But there seems to be clear instructions which result in boys getting booked in games for nothing!

Also if you actually look at the amount of times a Rugby ref ever speaks to the captains is largely only once twice a game. I dont think its big ask to ask a corner back or full forward (captain) to jog to ref to be told " Listen calm your no 2,6,9, whatever down or he's gone. This way 1 players face conseqiences of letting there team & captain down & 2 they2 they cant argue they werent given sufficient warning.

QuoteAlso if you actually look at the amount of times a Rugby ref ever speaks to the captains is largely only once twice a game. I dont think its big ask to ask a corner back or full forward (captain) to jog to ref to be told " Listen calm your no 2,6,9, whatever down or he's gone. This way 1 players face conseqiences of letting there team & captain down & 2 they2 they cant argue they werent given sufficient warning.

Can't they ref talk to them like he does now? For example there is a bit of argy bargy between 7 & 11 of one team and 2 & 15 of the other, I think it would be stupid for the ref to have to locate the the 2 captains (who might be at opposite ends of the field) and tell them to find the 4 players and talk to them rather than calling them over himself and saying look boys any more of that and ye'll get booked/sent off.

QuoteBut this aint about Rugby! Far to many guys these days are getting booked not because they are deliberately fouling players its because they have made two or three fouls & its seen by refs that one black book two your booked ( in old system)
There is no intepretation from refs to say " ok I thought the player was genuinely trying to play the ball there" or "ok it was foul but not intended" then I wont tick or book him. But there seems to be clear instructions which result in boys getting booked in games for nothing!

I agree totally but you'll have other lads calling for consistency. In fairness unlike rugby football is a muti directional game and tackles came come from anywhere with far more off the ball contact. The tackle is open to massive interpretation, so it is a very difficult game to ref, now IMO having said all that the quality of referring is generally poor but the only thing I would take from rugby is the advantage rule, to keep the game flowing and have less frees.

The rule should be that its the third man in who gets most punishment because at end of the day he isn't going to help matters unless he's pulling his team mate away.
2 guys on 1 team are at 2 from another Yellow card the 4! then take captain tell him they are on last warning.
How many stoppages do we have these days? tons. Hence the emergence of the Maor Uisce. It isn't because they are bringing on water they are there its because Managers are taking advantage of the numerous stoppages to get instructions to players.

As Ive said this wouldn't be happening 20 times a game the ref may want to speak to captains 2 maybe 3 times a game & as a result will result in fewer lengthly stoppages caused by these melees we see every year now were 30 boys pile in all chests out pushing & shoving.


We don't see it in other more aggressive sports why should we in GAA? If players realise they have greater consequences as a result of certain actions then they will discontinue to do them.

I can see a huge problem here if refs continue to referee games as they did previously. At the minute if a corner back goes out and pulls/shoulders etc an attacker of the ball then the umpire usually calls the ref over and both players are booked. It would be a shame if the best attackers in the country are sent off in the early stages of a big game for feck all.

These new rules are far to risky with the referees we have and could ruin games. We'd be safer investing time in training and improving referees performances. Far to many games are being ruined by whistle friendly refs who at every opportunity stop play to issue a tick and at the same time penalise the attacking team by slowing the game down. These rules wont solve anything, just cause a mess.

QuoteQueens manager Aidan O'Rourke has opened a hornet's nest by questioning the harshness - and validity - of suspensions meted out under the experimental rules.

The Armagh man was without Paul Courtney for last night's facile win over Antrim after the midfielder picked up yellow cards in successive matches - and thus incurred a two-week ban.



O'Rourke opted not to field Courtney. However, he feels confident he would have been able to get away with using the player had he chosen to do so...

"As things stand, the experimental rules were brought in for the McKenna Cup and other provincial competitions but there was no supplementary disciplinary rules brought in with the new rules.

"By the letter of the law, two double-yellows within 48 weeks bring you the suspension, but you can't get two yellows with these new rules, so it seems unfair. Boys are getting two-weeks suspension for two relatively small misdemeanours.

"We have looked into it and it is our understanding that we are in the right. Last year's rules are being used for the provincial competitions and I think we could fight it and win if we needed to.

"It means Paul may be missing out on matches that he really shouldn't have to miss, and that isn't on."

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=105698


A fortnight for two of these yellow cards inside 48 weeks?

A month when you gt the third yellow?

This is crazy. I suspect the authorities didn't consider this. Imagine getting 2 yellow cards, months apart, and getting a 2 week ban. Crazy stuff.

what wold third or fourth yellow cards over a season mean?

I think the new rules worked alright today.The ref wasn't ticking and booking layers after every tackle and the players were trying to tackle properly (most of the time) Not too sure about the 2 yellows = 2 weeks ban though

I thought he was quite sensible about applying the new rules and probably didn't apply them as much as he could have.  He did let a awful lot go and didn't have much choice with the yellows.

The reason they looked OK today was because the ref only applied them the odd time. If he'd gone by the letter of the law he could've sent another 4 or 5 players off and people would be on here now complaining that the rules are stupid.

IMO they are stupid. Bring back the sin bin and give it a decent chance this time. It has been tried and tested in other games as a success and there is no reason why it couldn't work in our games!

Quote from: Open yer eyes Man on January 18, 2009, 03:56:33 PM
I thought he was quite sensible about applying the new rules and probably didn't apply them as much as he could have.  He did let a awful lot go and didn't have much choice with the yellows.

He was a poor ref then?

Quote from: screenexile on January 18, 2009, 04:10:07 PM
IMO they are stupid. Bring back the sin bin and give it a decent chance this time. It has been tried and tested in other games as a success and there is no reason why it couldn't work in our games!

I'd go along with this. I think the rules are well intentioned, but at the minute they are simply too punishing. Guys are ending up on the line for mistiming a tackle by a fraction of a second. Two mistimed tackles within a year and you're out of football for a fortnight. Its ridiculously harsh.

Yellow card equals 7 minutes in the bin with no replacement.

And who'd  count the 7 minutes at a  U16 Div 3 League game on a Tuesday evening in Croghan?

Quote from: Rossfan on January 18, 2009, 06:36:43 PM
And who'd  count the 7 minutes at a  U16 Div 3 League game on a Tuesday evening in Croghan?

Well equally, where are the U16 Div 3 teams in Croghan gonna get the 5 or 6 extra lads that they'll need as replacements for every game if these new rules are kept in place?

Quote from: AFS on January 18, 2009, 07:00:20 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on January 18, 2009, 06:36:43 PM
And who'd  count the 7 minutes at a  U16 Div 3 League game on a Tuesday evening in Croghan?

Well equally, where are the U16 Div 3 teams in Croghan gonna get the 5 or 6 extra lads that they'll need as replacements for every game if these new rules are kept in place?

Is it necessary that new rules be applied to club/underage level? Could they not just be applicable to inter-county games?

Most ref's have 2 watches anyway how hard would it be to count 7 minutes on another watch or even to add 7 minutes from the time of the offence? If a ref forgot then I'm sure most decent managers would remind them when the 7 minutes are up... it's not rocket science!

Quote from: The GAA on January 18, 2009, 04:10:48 PM

Quote from: Open yer eyes Man on January 18, 2009, 03:56:33 PM
I thought he was quite sensible about applying the new rules and probably didn't apply them as much as he could have.  He did let a awful lot go and didn't have much choice with the yellows.

He was a poor ref then?

Why would he have been poor because he used a wee bit of common sense?  We all know these rules really don't work very well when applied to the letter of the law.  They really cannot be allowed to be used in the National League never mind beyond this , God forbid.

The real travesty is that they are also being applied harshly in hurling. 2 Offaly lads and 1 Galway lad got the line yesterday, for very little. If one of them gets another, they're going to miss 2 weeks? Bananas.

I cannot believe the suspension thing. Pure crazy. There'll be some craic for CCC's up and down the country keeping track of that if it comes in!

Refs have gone easy on the cards so as to reduce the outcry. Does the David Coldrick miked up game not leave people smelling a rat? No yellow cards in the game - what a coincidence!

I thought initially that there was no way these rules would be accepted but there is serious power behind this and a serious PR campaign being waged so I'm not so sure they will be beaten. It will alter the nature of Gaelic football quite radically.

Quote from: Open yer eyes Man on January 18, 2009, 03:56:33 PM
I thought he was quite sensible about applying the new rules and probably didn't apply them as much as he could have.  He did let a awful lot go and didn't have much choice with the yellows.

Cavan Armagh game was the same. Sensible refereeing but if there was an accessor there he would have got a bad score.

Quote from: magpie seanie on January 19, 2009, 02:36:21 PM
I cannot believe the suspension thing. Pure crazy. There'll be some craic for CCC's up and down the country keeping track of that if it comes in!

Refs have gone easy on the cards so as to reduce the outcry. Does the David Coldrick miked up game not leave people smelling a rat? No yellow cards in the game - what a coincidence!

I thought initially that there was no way these rules would be accepted but there is serious power behind this and a serious PR campaign being waged so I'm not so sure they will be beaten. It will alter the nature of Gaelic football quite radically.

The rule itself, I'm willing to see how it plays out over time, but the suspensions is crazy. It sounds like they didn't give any thought to it at all. I wouldn't mind a lad getting 4 or 5 Yellows over the year getting a ban, but 2 is just nuts.

Yeah I don't know about the suspension thing. The Queen's manager highlighted that he was confident they could have gotten a player off quite easily who had been carded twice inside a few weeks.

Along with that Derry have had a player sent off 3 times in 3 weeks and another twice in 2 weeks and neither of them have sat out yet unless maybe there was no official notification received.

Have they decided yet if they are using the new rules in the League yet?
Not a great fan of them myself!

Having watched a few matches on TG4 and a Walsh Cup game in person I will give the changes a tentative seal of approval. This is because imo the refs in question were sensible in their interperatation of the rule and seemed to give the benefit of the doubt to the players.
However I fear that some day soon some ref is going to lose the plot and scupper the new rules with a pedantic approach.

Pundits/Fans fear the new rules will not work in the heat of battle or more especially during a game with a lot at stake.  Why?

A foul is a foul.  

Has there been any controversy with respect to the yellow card?  Surely it is better that a player with a yellow card (assuming it is warrented) is replaced than be sent off in the old sense for a second yellow that he may pick up.

Watching on TG4, the gamesseem to flow better with less pulling or dragging.

What do others think?

They're a nonsense to me. The referee's workload has actually been increased and i have no doubt whatsoever that the intention at croke park level is to "sanitise" the game and make it a more apppealing package to soccer moms.

physical contact is a very appealing part of the game. these rules are aimed at reducing it by legislation and by threat

Quote from: magpie seanie on January 19, 2009, 02:36:21 PM
I cannot believe the suspension thing. Pure crazy. There'll be some craic for CCC's up and down the country keeping track of that if it comes in!

Refs have gone easy on the cards so as to reduce the outcry. Does the David Coldrick miked up game not leave people smelling a rat? No yellow cards in the game - what a coincidence!

I thought initially that there was no way these rules would be accepted but there is serious power behind this and a serious PR campaign being waged so I'm not so sure they will be beaten. It will alter the nature of Gaelic football quite radically.

Apparently Rory Kavanagh was prevented from lifting the McKenna Cup by officials who told him he was suspended after going off with a yellow card. An embarrassed Barry Monaghan had to go up in his place (more than one journalist printed that Monaghan was Kavanagh - who the f**k are these people? Barry Monaghan, while not a household name, has been playing for Donegal for about ten years. He's hardly an unfamiliar face).

Quick question. It's probably been asked elsewhere but Are the new rules to be enforced for the League?

Quote from: Bod Mor on January 28, 2009, 06:02:11 AM
Quick question. It's probably been asked elsewhere but Are the new rules to be enforced for the League?

Yes.

Apologies if this has been discusse before but what's the craic if a man gets a yellow card in two/three consecutive games? Does he get a minimum one month ban similar to the old straight red penalty?

On that note, I'm assuming a striaght red is dealt with as it was in the past (by the RUC, CDC, ABC, DRA, GPA, IFA and GUI)?

Thanks.

The rules are getting more farcical by the day.


Armagh are fuming after Aidan O'Rourke picked up a controversial one-month suspension which rules him out of their NFL opener against Wexford on Sunday.

O'Rourke received the suspension as his 'reward' for taking time out to coach Queen's University in the McKenna Cup. The Orchard County star got four weeks for remonstrating with a linesman during the win over - ironically - Armagh.



He spent the rest of the McKenna Cup campaign in the stands but is now also ruled out of his county's opening league assignment, much to the wrath of everybody concerned:

"I wasn't too up on the rules in this to tell the truth, but it seems a bit odd. It certainly doesn't encourage fellas to get involved in coaching if this is going to be the case.

"It's an aspect I hadn't really thought of. It has ramifications for coaching the team but the big thing for me was not being able to play for Armagh.

"In Sigerson, you just stand on one side of the rope so it is irrelevant really. But Armagh are not too happy about me missing the game in Wexford."

O'Rourke's suspension is nothing to do with the new rules.

And it wasn't a friendly chat with the linesman that resulted in the ban. From what I heard he fully deserved his punishment. Great and all it is for lads to give their time for GAA, but no excuse for abusing officials the way O'Rourke did.

Quote from: Hound on January 28, 2009, 01:34:35 PM
O'Rourke's suspension is nothing to do with the new rules.

And it wasn't a friendly chat with the linesman that resulted in the ban. From what I heard he fully deserved his punishment. Great and all it is for lads to give their time for GAA, but no excuse for abusing officials the way O'Rourke did.

Officials getting verbal abuse, what next?

You're right about it not be a new rule though, slipped my mind.

What is the atcual rule, e.g the crossover between playing and coaching?

GAA yellow cards will not carry over

The GAA has announced that yellow cards incurred under the experimental new rules will not have effect the disciplinary records of players outside the competition in which the cautions were awarded.

Yellow cards, therefore, issued during the January provincial competitions will not carry over to the national leagues, while cautions in the latter will not effect players in the Championships.

A GAA statement added: "This only applies to Category 1 (yellow card) infractions and ... penalties incurred for red card offences will apply across relevant competitions."

Hmmm so for example, Marty O Rourke is free to play despite two yellows in January?

Quote from: corn02 on January 28, 2009, 01:27:55 PM
The rules are getting more farcical by the day.


Armagh are fuming after Aidan O'Rourke picked up a controversial one-month suspension which rules him out of their NFL opener against Wexford on Sunday.

O'Rourke received the suspension as his 'reward' for taking time out to coach Queen's University in the McKenna Cup. The Orchard County star got four weeks for remonstrating with a linesman during the win over - ironically - Armagh.



He spent the rest of the McKenna Cup campaign in the stands but is now also ruled out of his county's opening league assignment, much to the wrath of everybody concerned:

"I wasn't too up on the rules in this to tell the truth, but it seems a bit odd. It certainly doesn't encourage fellas to get involved in coaching if this is going to be the case.

"It's an aspect I hadn't really thought of. It has ramifications for coaching the team but the big thing for me was not being able to play for Armagh.

"In Sigerson, you just stand on one side of the rope so it is irrelevant really. But Armagh are not too happy about me missing the game in Wexford."

He can have no complaints corn, he abused a linesman and that's the punishment, end of story.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 28, 2009, 07:04:39 PM

Quote from: corn02 on January 28, 2009, 01:27:55 PM
The rules are getting more farcical by the day.


Armagh are fuming after Aidan O'Rourke picked up a controversial one-month suspension which rules him out of their NFL opener against Wexford on Sunday.

O'Rourke received the suspension as his 'reward' for taking time out to coach Queen's University in the McKenna Cup. The Orchard County star got four weeks for remonstrating with a linesman during the win over - ironically - Armagh.



He spent the rest of the McKenna Cup campaign in the stands but is now also ruled out of his county's opening league assignment, much to the wrath of everybody concerned:

"I wasn't too up on the rules in this to tell the truth, but it seems a bit odd. It certainly doesn't encourage fellas to get involved in coaching if this is going to be the case.

"It's an aspect I hadn't really thought of. It has ramifications for coaching the team but the big thing for me was not being able to play for Armagh.

"In Sigerson, you just stand on one side of the rope so it is irrelevant really. But Armagh are not too happy about me missing the game in Wexford."

He can have no complaints corn, he abused a linesman and that's the punishment, end of story.

Yeah fair enough, my gripe is with it carrying over to plaing. What is the rule.

A linesman must get abust 20 times a match from players/officials.

QuoteA linesman must get abust 20 times a match from players/officials.

Yeah but if you abuse you run the risk of getting yourself in bother and cant complain when you do.

QuoteIt certainly doesn't encourage fellas to get involved in coaching if this is going to be the case.

and that's just pathetic.

more new rules, Crossmaglen are a cynical team, never :o, what is francie gonna do now you are not allowed to push a man in the chest/face or take a man out when running through, maybe he will look at the rules and think its time to call an end to intercounty.
So the refs are all of to athlone for a wee chat, are the powers that be gonna sit each one down and tell them they must use the same common sense approach in ALL cases, or are we still gonna have inconsistant reffereeing decisions that will differ from one ref to the next?

Quote
League yellows won't affect championship
28 January 2009


The GAA have confirmed that yellow cards incurred in games played under the experimental new rules in the January provincial competitions and the national leagues will not remain on a player's disciplinary record outside of the immediate competition in which he was participating.

Effectively this means that penalties incurred in the January competitions will not carry forward to the Allianz Leagues or third level competitions and penalties imposed in the national leagues will not be carried forward to the championships.

It should be noted that this only applies to Category 1 (yellow card) infractions and that penalties incurred for Red Card offences will apply across relevant competitions.

The new rules will see players who pick up a number of yellow cards receiving match suspensions, but today's confirmation means that players know that a number of yellow cards could not see them suspended for a first round championship encounter.

So what it this magic 'number' they speak of? The powers that be are so f8ckin vague sometimes you'd wonder how there's not more confusion/disciplinaries, if that's possible!

From Todays Irish News

http://www.irishnews.com/irishnews/597/5776/2009/1/29/608837_370682491570Tacklerul.html

Tackle rules revised
Gaelic Games
By Andy Watters and Coilin Duffy
29/01/2009

FOOTAGE of Crossmaglen's Ulster club football final double-header against Ballinderry came under the spotlight as the GAA revealed seven new infractions for the forthcoming National Football League yesterday.

Additional no-nos include the frontal push and touching or shoving an opponent in the face.

They bring to 15 the number of new laws introduced since the start of the Dr McKenna Cup and were announced by Liam O'Neill, chairman of the Disciplinary Task Force, and Pat Daly, GAA Director of Games.

Both the drawn and replayed Ulster club finals were used as examples of where cynical fouls were committed, with Daly stating: "those games were riddled with examples of fouls".

Clips from a number of other games were shown and O'Neill claimed that Ulster players had already benefitted from the new rules which were introduced for the McKenna Cup.

"The message we are trying to get out is that it doesn't pay to foul. I'm quite sure the Ulster managers have got that message across to their players and the I'm sure that the players have embraced it," he said.

"I'm sure that you will find, at the end of the League, Ulster teams will prepare for this as they did before in 2005 (last rules experiment) and do quite well out of it."

A total of 60 examples were used during the hour-long presentation with the O'Byrne Cup tie between Louth and Wicklow at Drogheda

singled out for a passage of play which lasted four minutes and three seconds without a foul.

"A long sequence of play is what we should be getting all of the time," said O'Neill.

"What was significant about that was not that it lasted four minutes, but that the ball was played up and down the field – there were numerous handpasses, numerous kick passes and numerous

dispossessions, but we would expect before the end of the year that some of those bouts of forward play will have resulted in scores."

And O'Neill, who watched the McKenna Cup clash between Cavan and Queen's, is satisfied that players have shown they are happy with the new rules.

"Players have already shown that they are willing to embrace the new rules and actually prefer to play Gaelic games in an environment where it doesn't pay to foul," he claimed.

Meetings for football and hurling referees will take place ahead of the NFL and NHL starts, with the football whistlers set to convene in Athlone tomorrow night.

All inter-county managers will also be invited to a meeting to give their views in the coming weeks and O'Neill believes players, management and officials alike are all willing to take on the responsibilities in relation to the new rules.

"We said that this was a serious enough change in mindset that we had to include all of the stake-holders. We have included them in every decision, and in every part of our decision-making process," he said.

"We are trying to treat everybody with respect here. We want to treat county managers with respect because they have to prepare teams for the competitions. We want to treat the players with respect because we want them to know the rules, that's why we sent the DVD out to their managers to show them.

"We want to treat referees with respect because we are asking them to put themselves on the line. Every single time a referee goes out he is putting himself on the line and we are treating them with the new rules as intensively as we can to be fair to them so they can make their decisions and get them right as soon as possible."

So they add seven new infractions based on the Ballinderry Cross game, yet Francie Bellew's head butt goes unpunished.

Quote from: corn02 on January 28, 2009, 01:27:55 PM
The rules are getting more farcical by the day.


Armagh are fuming after Aidan O'Rourke picked up a controversial one-month suspension which rules him out of their NFL opener against Wexford on Sunday.

O'Rourke received the suspension as his 'reward' for taking time out to coach Queen's University in the McKenna Cup. The Orchard County star got four weeks for remonstrating with a linesman during the win over - ironically - Armagh.



He spent the rest of the McKenna Cup campaign in the stands but is now also ruled out of his county's opening league assignment, much to the wrath of everybody concerned:

"I wasn't too up on the rules in this to tell the truth, but it seems a bit odd. It certainly doesn't encourage fellas to get involved in coaching if this is going to be the case.

"It's an aspect I hadn't really thought of. It has ramifications for coaching the team but the big thing for me was not being able to play for Armagh.

"In Sigerson, you just stand on one side of the rope so it is irrelevant really. But Armagh are not too happy about me missing the game in Wexford."

Can't see how O'Rourke has any agument.

Quote from: el_cuervo_fc on January 29, 2009, 09:26:17 AM
From Todays Irish News

http://www.irishnews.com/irishnews/597/5776/2009/1/29/608837_370682491570Tacklerul.html

Tackle rules revised
Gaelic Games
By Andy Watters and Coilin Duffy
29/01/2009

FOOTAGE of Crossmaglen's Ulster club football final double-header against Ballinderry came under the spotlight as the GAA revealed seven new infractions for the forthcoming National Football League yesterday.

Additional no-nos include the frontal push and touching or shoving an opponent in the face.

They bring to 15 the number of new laws introduced since the start of the Dr McKenna Cup and were announced by Liam O'Neill, chairman of the Disciplinary Task Force, and Pat Daly, GAA Director of Games.

Both the drawn and replayed Ulster club finals were used as examples of where cynical fouls were committed, with Daly stating: "those games were riddled with examples of fouls".

Clips from a number of other games were shown and O'Neill claimed that Ulster players had already benefitted from the new rules which were introduced for the McKenna Cup.

"The message we are trying to get out is that it doesn't pay to foul. I'm quite sure the Ulster managers have got that message across to their players and the I'm sure that the players have embraced it," he said.

"I'm sure that you will find, at the end of the League, Ulster teams will prepare for this as they did before in 2005 (last rules experiment) and do quite well out of it."

A total of 60 examples were used during the hour-long presentation with the O'Byrne Cup tie between Louth and Wicklow at Drogheda

singled out for a passage of play which lasted four minutes and three seconds without a foul.

"A long sequence of play is what we should be getting all of the time," said O'Neill.

"What was significant about that was not that it lasted four minutes, but that the ball was played up and down the field – there were numerous handpasses, numerous kick passes and numerous

dispossessions, but we would expect before the end of the year that some of those bouts of forward play will have resulted in scores."

And O'Neill, who watched the McKenna Cup clash between Cavan and Queen's, is satisfied that players have shown they are happy with the new rules.

"Players have already shown that they are willing to embrace the new rules and actually prefer to play Gaelic games in an environment where it doesn't pay to foul," he claimed.

Meetings for football and hurling referees will take place ahead of the NFL and NHL starts, with the football whistlers set to convene in Athlone tomorrow night.

All inter-county managers will also be invited to a meeting to give their views in the coming weeks and O'Neill believes players, management and officials alike are all willing to take on the responsibilities in relation to the new rules.

"We said that this was a serious enough change in mindset that we had to include all of the stake-holders. We have included them in every decision, and in every part of our decision-making process," he said.

"We are trying to treat everybody with respect here. We want to treat county managers with respect because they have to prepare teams for the competitions. We want to treat the players with respect because we want them to know the rules, that's why we sent the DVD out to their managers to show them.

"We want to treat referees with respect because we are asking them to put themselves on the line. Every single time a referee goes out he is putting himself on the line and we are treating them with the new rules as intensively as we can to be fair to them so they can make their decisions and get them right as soon as possible."

So thats seven more rule changes for the league on top of those included in the january competitions? this isbecoming a bigger joke than i thought.

Did these stakeholders include players? i doubt it somehow?

Let me start by saying Cavan were not beaten by Longford yesterday due to the new rules.

Now parking that, these rules are panning out exactly as I suspected. It is effectively now impossible to be reduced to 14 players or to get a straight yellow card. It is also impossible to predict what is going to be a black card and what is not. Here is what happened in Longford yesterday where the ref was Michael Duffy from Sligo.

30 seconds into the game Cavan have the ball in midfield. They are about to kick it into the FF line. Our FF tries to make a run and is having his jersey pulled. Michael correctly gives Cavan a free in front of the posts but does not give a ticking to  the back. Was this not the type of foul this rule change was supposed to punish. On three occassions in the 1st half Longford back "close lined" Cavan forwards. These were bad fouls that were 100% yellow cards last year. One was so bad that everyone in the crowd could hear the smack of arm to face. All three resulted in black cards. Michael then started black carding every foul, even one that were slightly mis timed honest attempts to tackle. Every black card meant the game had to be held up for 20 seconds to fill in the notebook. As a result the game deteriorated into an hour of stop start. Were these new rules not supposed  to  be designed to prevent this type of match.

I read somewhere how the GAA showed a vdeoed club game as an example of why  the rules need to change. I advise them to look at a video of yesterdays Cavan v Longford game to get the other side of it. The rules need to be binned until every ref is properly trained on how to enforce them. It is a joke to have totally different interpretations of the rules when the net result is sending of players (or not as the case may be). In any case a Sin Bin is a much better idea than this.

Quote from: mylestheslasher on February 02, 2009, 08:56:36 AM
It is effectively now impossible to be reduced to 14 players or to get a straight yellow card.

Not true, see Barry Cullinane or Colm Cavanagh.
It seems to me that a black card is the new yellow and you'll only get a yellow for really persistant fouling or for something that would have been borderline yellow/red under the old rules. I'm giving these new rules a cautious welcome based on the handful of games I've seen so far and I don't see any reduction in physicality.
I don't agree with the suspension thing though. Maybe if it was 4 or 5 yellow cards over a 5 or 6 games which brought a suspension, But generally, being ordered off for a yellow is punishment enough in my book.

The most controversial of the new rules it the one that states you can't be given a yellow card if you are Sean Cavanagh.