Background
Congress 2016, agreed that from January 1st 2018:
That Minor inter-county age grade be moved from 18 to 17 (68% to 32%)
The knock-on effect was that county minors were no longer eligible for adult club competition ("Decoupling")
A number of motions from clubs in the interim have sought to reverse this decision – including at Congress 2022
In addition, a Central Council motion at Congress 2022 sought to replace the current U20 inter county championships with U19 championships. This was narrowly defeated (received 55% support)
Post Congress 2022, the Uachtarán set up a Work Group to re-examine the whole question of age grades in the Association.
Report Taskforce on Player Burnout – Dr. Pat O Neill
Recommended amalgamation of Under 18 and 21 for Under 19
Limited training load for underage squads
Strong focus on making players available to clubs post 19
Raising the age-threshold at county level to U.19 will provide greater bone and joint maturity and thereby reduce the risk of musculoskeletal injuries
Mobilising Forces (2012)
• Under 17 a Developmental Age-Grade and is decoupled from Adult
• Under 19 is the first recognised Inter-County Age-Grade in terms of All-Ireland Competitions
Report of the Minor Review Workgroup (2015) (Incl. Medical Science and Welfare Committee)
• Demands on young 'talented players is unsustainable' leading to overuse injuries and player burnout
• Motion passed limiting eligibility to play adult to Over 17's
• Recommended piloting club age-grades at Under 13, 15, 17 and 19 (or 20)
Keeping Them in the Game: Taking Up and Dropping Out of Sport and Exercise in Ireland. ESRI (2013)
'Most drop-out events probably surround a life change, such as leaving education
• ESRI – 16-19 twice as high as Soccer
• Drop-off in Gaelic Games between 12–21-year-old was 58%
• Retention Study (2016) greatest drop off between 15-17 across all sports
Review of 2016 Decision
Group looked at relevance of reasons for change in 2016
Agreed the reasons for DECOUPLING and changing from U18 to U17 Inter County in 2016 are still relevant.
1. To reduce the number of teams/managers a player is answerable to (one age grade between developmental and adult at inter-county)
2. Remove 18 as a key age grade - lessen responsibility on senior cycle exam players (Data shows senior cycle exam pupils evenly spread between U18s and U19s now)
3. Fixture planning – by decoupling U17's from adult games programme - U17 inter-county competitions do not affect the adult games programme and vice versa
4. Addressed the demands of being available to multiple teams on players at that age – and by extension overtraining/overuse injuries
5. Reduced fixture clashes (players being made to choose between one game/team and another); or worse opting to play both in a short period of time.
Group keenly aware that examining a return to U18 at inter county as final "Youth" grade was a key responsibility
Also looked at what did not happen since 2016 decision (and needs to happen):
1. Education of Units regarding Association Policy on Age Grades and what we are trying to achieve (i.e., to protect, retain, and grow underage playing base; reduce issues affecting games programme for adult players)
2. Tiered and developmental U17 inter-county competitions (old model still in use)
3. Failure to address the developmental "gap" at inter-county (U17 – U20)
4. Lack of appropriate games programme for some club players post-U17 for variety of reasons (incl. split season, Covid etc)
5. Lack of "buy in" to U19 in some counties
6. Impact of Covid on all of the above
Lack of clarity, sense of uncertainty and a feeling (in some instances) that we were better with what we had
Underage Task Force - Findings
• The importance of "De-Coupling" (i.e. at what age youth players can play senior club competition)
Fixture planning/reduces teams players available for, managers answerable too etc.
• Inter County and Club have to be considered as two separate questions - different imperatives and priorities for both
Inter county should be around
• The protection & appropriate development of our talented players over 17 – Senior.
• Debate is relevant to a small number of players
Club should be around:
• Player retention & whether age grades can play a positive role in maximising the number of player who transition to adult.
• The provision of regular and meaningful games
• Impact on adult games programme
Debate involves the vast majority of players
Strong view - one inter-county competition grade post U17/U18 and before senior
– Availability of players to clubs
– Reduces number of teams a player is eligible for/coaches answerable to
– Congestion in inter-county calendar
– Unsustainable cost for counties
– Potential affect on 2nd and 3rd Level
Two options at inter-county
Option 1:
– Revert to U18 at inter-county
– Next grade up to be U20
– Necessity of club decoupling at 18 for this model to work
Option 2:
– Retain inter-county at U17
– Next grade up to be U19
Option 1 - U18 and U20 Inter-county
– Return to U18 as final Youth/Development grade at inter county
– Final grade before Senior to be U20
– Club decoupling would have to be at 18 nationally (i.e. a player must be 18 on January 1st of a given year in order to play Adult)
Advantages
1. Provides for an elongated talent development process (delays deselection process by a year)
2. Extra year for players to develop before playing Adult at club (U20 at inter county)
3. More likely to identify future elite players at 18 than 17
4. Culture and tradition
5. No need for any change to current U20 inter county age grade
Challenges
1. Is at odds with various detailed and well researched GAA reports
a. All reports and research supported decoupling
b. Mobilising Forces suggested 17 as final developmental age
c. Minor Review group also identified 17; Talent Academy Report reinforced this
2. Necessity of decoupling – U18s could not play adult club if U18 reintroduced
3. Impact of senior cycle exams – May & June largely unusable for U18 competitions
4. U20 intercounty greater crossover with senior inter-county panels (10% v 5%), training windows etc.
5. U18 will have greater impact on 2nd Level Schools (Feb/March)
6. U20 competitions will have greater crossover with 3rd Level
Task Force Recommendation on Inter-county U18
Task force are NOT recommending a return to U18 at inter-county level largely because
1. Runs contrary to previous reports (little has changed in interim)
2. Impact on clubs of introducing national decoupling at 18
3. U20 or 21 as the next grade – increased cross over Senior inter-county/Third level
Option 2 – U17 and U19 Inter-County
– U17 as final youth/development age at inter-county
– U19 the competitive grade before senior inter-county
Advantages
1. Consistent with the findings of Talent Academy & other reports
2. Many elements in place - i.e. no major change needed, only tweaks
3. Less crossover with 2nd and 3rd Level programmes
4. Less crossover with senior inter county panels (U19 v U20)
5. More time in calendar allows for round robin or tiered championships
6. Allows for U19 inter-county to be played alongside senior inter-county championships
55% support at Congress '22 for U17 & U19
Challenges
1. Development gap post U19 inter-county – filled by participation with clubs, 3rd level, inter-county adult
2. Impact of senior cycle exams on U19 (break in season)
3. Overcoming tradition and culture
Summary – Inter County
Task Force strongly recommends U17 at inter-county with U19 as the final grade before adult inter-county
Age Grades at Club Level
Different dynamics at play than at inter-county
Reminder:
Inter-county priorities should be
• the protection & appropriate development of our talented players over 17 to Senior
• Debate is relevant to a small number of players
Club priorities about:
• player retention & whether age grades can play a positive role in maximising the number of player who transition to adult.
• Provision of regular and meaningful games
• Impact on Adult games programme
Debate involves vast majority of players
Decoupling is at the heart of our ability to provide games, and to minimize negative impact on the adult games programme.
It is acknowledged in the context of the above that there are considerably different needs in different counties.
- Numbers of players in each age category may differ significantly between Counties (Club sizes – e.g. Leitrim one club per 1,300 players; Mayo one club per 2,000 as opposed to Meath/Kildare – 1 club per c. 3,500 etc)
- Players in some counties accommodated post U17 in Adult teams (2nd or 3rd teams); not so in others
Rural and urban divide (within counties)
A "one size fits all" model may not therefore be the best approach.
It may be that this is something best left to each individual County to assess based on their own needs.
In this context, there are a number of options available to the GAA to adopt as National Policy, while still allowing for flexibility in terms of Age Grades in each County.
Decoupling MUST be a part of any option to avoid the problems of the past (overtraining/overuse/fixture planning etc)
Option 1
Current Policy – U17 is final Developmental Age Grade
Decoupling - U17s cannot play Adult Club
Counties must run U13, U15 and U17 as a minimum requirement
Counties who wish to play U12/14/16 in addition to these may do so in consultation with GDC/Central Council
Counties should run at least one age grade between U17 and Senior/Adult
Option 2
Amend national policy to allow Counties that wish to have U18 as final mandatory age grade to do so (both codes)
Decoupling – Such counties would have a bye law that players in the U18 age grade within the county cannot play adult football or hurling
Other grades – minimum requirement of U12, U14, U16
(No need for Rule Change centrally – would be a matter for each county to receive permission from Central Council/GDC for their preferred model, subject to oversight- i.e. the provision of minimum games programmes, and an approved de-coupling bye law locally)
Option 3
Revert to U18 as final developmental age grade nationally (at club level)
Decoupling – All counties to de-couple at 18 (i.e. players in the U18 age grade would not be permitted to play adult football or hurling)
Other grades – minimum requirement of U12, 14 and 16
(Requires Rule Change)
Summary
Work Group strongly recommends U17 at inter-county with U19 as the final grade before adult inter-county
There are options other than the current policy available to use at club level
Asking you to discuss these and the main points of this presentation within your County
Revert to us with your counties view
Thoughts?
Option 1 is the best option for me. However small rural clubs may find it difficult to field teams if the u-18 can't field for adult teams. I suppose there'd be a knockdown effect down the different age groups changing from odd to even ages.
The change to U17 and U19 isn't working, at least in Armagh in my opinion, anyway.
The U19 competition is almost non-existent (maybe a few games per year) with the result that a 17 year old lad (unless he is a genuine star) won't get much club football as they won't be fit for senior.
Like U19s, the reserve football only provides a few games per year.
Changing back to U18 would give that 17 year old lad another full year of competitive football where he will be matched better physically.
There's no silver bullet to fix this. I understood some of the arguments for separating underage and adult football. The theory there was fine, but it hasn't worked as well as expected.
There's now a bigger gap between juvenile and adult football than there ever was and most clubs can't field an U19 team without the 2 or 3 lads that are fit to play senior football so you can't run that competition at the same time. I don't think any clubs are going to accept U18s not playing adult football outside the few really big clubs.
Option 1 will probably more votes though, I think more people think it needs changed either way.
Quote from: johnnycool on September 26, 2022, 10:57:44 AM
Thoughts?
Is this going to be 2023 or 2024 before it actually happens?
Option 1 meaning anyone playing under 18 cant play senior?
That would be the death kneel for a lot of clubs.
This is playing to the big clubs and saying tough shit to a huge number of clubs
without reading all of this bring back under 18 and I like the look of under 20 as a grade.
Its been a poor enough experiment I feel. others may disagree, kids are not built the way they used to for playing and seniors have certainly changed physically also, so I get the protection issues but there are some hairy arsed minors that wouldn't look out place on senior teams..
So you can't really always put an age on it at times
Quote from: Smokin Joe on September 26, 2022, 11:47:55 AM
The change to U17 and U19 isn't working, at least in Armagh in my opinion, anyway.
The U19 competition is almost non-existent (maybe a few games per year) with the result that a 17 year old lad (unless he is a genuine star) won't get much club football as they won't be fit for senior.
Like U19s, the reserve football only provides a few games per year.
Changing back to U18 would give that 17 year old lad another full year of competitive football where he will be matched better physically.
Play under 19's and under 17's. Let the stronger lads at u19 play u19 and senior. Gives a chance to lads coming from u17's who aren't ready for senior football another couple of years playing at their own level to develop physically for senior football.
Most lads I know would have played minor and senior games in a week not a bother to them.
Quote from: Armagh18 on September 26, 2022, 12:29:13 PM
Quote from: Smokin Joe on September 26, 2022, 11:47:55 AM
The change to U17 and U19 isn't working, at least in Armagh in my opinion, anyway.
The U19 competition is almost non-existent (maybe a few games per year) with the result that a 17 year old lad (unless he is a genuine star) won't get much club football as they won't be fit for senior.
Like U19s, the reserve football only provides a few games per year.
Changing back to U18 would give that 17 year old lad another full year of competitive football where he will be matched better physically.
Play under 19's and under 17's. Let the stronger lads at u19 play u19 and senior. Gives a chance to lads coming from u17's who aren't ready for senior football another couple of years playing at their own level to develop physically for senior football.
Most lads I know would have played minor and senior games in a week not a bother to them.
Down had planned on playing U19s (or 20s) and reserve football on alternative weeks. I think covid never really let that happen properly but there's something in that. The issue is managers wouldn't let them play a lot of times now.
Quote from: Armagh18 on September 26, 2022, 12:29:13 PM
Quote from: Smokin Joe on September 26, 2022, 11:47:55 AM
The change to U17 and U19 isn't working, at least in Armagh in my opinion, anyway.
The U19 competition is almost non-existent (maybe a few games per year) with the result that a 17 year old lad (unless he is a genuine star) won't get much club football as they won't be fit for senior.
Like U19s, the reserve football only provides a few games per year.
Changing back to U18 would give that 17 year old lad another full year of competitive football where he will be matched better physically.
Play under 19's and under 17's. Let the stronger lads at u19 play u19 and senior. Gives a chance to lads coming from u17's who aren't ready for senior football another couple of years playing at their own level to develop physically for senior football.
Most lads I know would have played minor and senior games in a week not a bother to them.
That would be fine if the U19s was a proper competition like U17 is.
There was a huge difference in the amount of U19 games played compared to U17s. The 19s was an afterthought and lots of games not fielded or conceded.
Quote from: Smokin Joe on September 26, 2022, 11:47:55 AM
The change to U17 and U19 isn't working, at least in Armagh in my opinion, anyway.
The U19 competition is almost non-existent (maybe a few games per year) with the result that a 17 year old lad (unless he is a genuine star) won't get much club football as they won't be fit for senior.
Like U19s, the reserve football only provides a few games per year.
Changing back to U18 would give that 17 year old lad another full year of competitive football where he will be matched better physically.
Have to agree, it's making a balls out of smaller clubs
The hardest thing to get right is the transition from underage to adult competition because of the diversity in physical development. There is no perfect solution to this. The u18 (or u18.5) argument doesn't stack up either because as generations of neglect has shown us this isn't good enough to keep the majority of players involved until they are ready for adult competitions.
Some observations
I haven't seen any evidence that there is any change in retention rates with the change in age grades (up or down)
Most counties used to cut lads loose after u18 - with an u21 championship tacked on in the winter (waste of time for long term development)
Most counties have (maybe deliberately) put no effort into planning the bridging competitions
Lower down the pathway also needs considered, i.e. the transition from Go Games into competitive grades
Bizarre that we keep going from sub committee to sub committee and from one half baked idea to another. Is there noone planning this in Croke Park who has benchmarked similar sports or run targeted pilots?
Quote from: DuffleKing on September 26, 2022, 01:44:50 PM
The hardest thing to get right is the transition from underage to adult competition because of the diversity in physical development. There is no perfect solution to this. The u18 (or u18.5) argument doesn't stack up either because as generations of neglect has shown us this isn't good enough to keep the majority of players involved until they are ready for adult competitions.
Some observations
I haven't seen any evidence that there is any change in retention rates with the change in age grades (up or down)
Most counties used to cut lads loose after u18 - with an u21 championship tacked on in the winter (waste of time for long term development)
Most counties have (maybe deliberately) put no effort into planning the bridging competitions
Lower down the pathway also needs considered, i.e. the transition from Go Games into competitive grades
Bizarre that we keep going from sub committee to sub committee and from one half baked idea to another. Is there noone planning this in Croke Park who has benchmarked similar sports or run targeted pilots?
Croke Park recommendations are to stick with what they have in place now which IMO is fine for IC. Any elite player in the IC scene should only be playing at one level and I know there was a lot made of some of the Limerick hurlers being ruled out of U20 due to getting a bit of a run out for the seniors but on the whole it should be kept.
I'm not convinced that you can't still have club competitions at U18 and still "decouple" juvenile and adult at 17. We've lost a few lads @18 as they weren't keen on adult at 18 whereas some were and are doing ok, but at least have the option to keep the first lad for another year @18 and also expose the other lad to adult games if they're fit for it, but can also thrive in their own cohort.
U19 hasn't worked as from my experiences it hard to get a team together with some off to university at various times of the year and then the bigger overlap with adult.
Has any county managed to fit a proper U19 league into their schedule and when do they play it?
The other thing that the U17 thing was meant to help was exams. Doesn't help one jot in the north as you've lads doing AS's in lower 6th (Yr13) so the months of May and June have always been a struggle.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on September 26, 2022, 02:21:54 PM
From a Tyronie POV...
* The "old" age system worked well as they fit well into school age profiles.
* While the jury is still out on the new age ranges, preliminarily anecdotal evidence doesn't appear to show any advantages over the older system.
* Getting the U19 age level competitions to be competitive/popular has been less than great. This year a league commenced at the start of April and the Grade 1 semi-finals have yet to be played with the last games played on the 25th April. Last year (when first established) quite a few clubs intended to enter teams but it ended up with nearly half of them either withdrawing before the start or only fulfilling one or two fixtures. This isn't exactly new in Tyrone however as in the last decade plus the U21 football championships were getting awkward to schedule/play before eventually being quietly dropped. A meaningful internal discussion/survey/census on post-U17 football in Tyrone is needed IMO.
* One thing I would agree on is that no player still eligible for the U17 grade should be playing in adult competitions. DuffleKing makes a good point in noting the varying physical development of players at this age (and below it) so you need to make a fair compromise on this and U17 is probably the best fit. The argument about this penalising smaller clubs isn't a valid enough one IMO - the way to counter that is to work on player retention. Nordie folks (mainly) will have noticed recently the story of a boy who's not even 14 years old playing soccer for Glenavon in a cup game recently to set a UK record - that felt a bit uncomfortable to read IMO especially as it was almost certainly a publicity stunt that he was brought on to play.
* Maybe it's a case of growing up in it, but I don't feel comfortable at U13 being the first "full" competitive age level. My reasons? Thirty years ago competitive football at U12 level was scrapped in Tyrone, long before the Go Games programs were adopted at a central level, with the first competitive age level for many years afterwards being U14. Looking at the evidence since it was introduced, this decision worked well for Tyrone (though it would be a stretch to suggest that this was either the only or the biggest reason) at underage development since then. In the mid-00's an autumn U13 competition was introduced, but only as a league (no championship) and with half the amount of games as the U14 league - originally it was to determine the File Peil champions and later on as a mini-competition to assist with grading at U14 level, and I felt it was a fair compromise. To me, the year's gap is a notable difference for player maturity. While a counter-argument can be made regarding school competitions & club tournaments, they're not the same IMO. Apples & oranges.
* Overall it's hard to think what would work best. None of the three options offered are ideal but then again they're not being presented as such and don't pretend to be.
Soccer is generally a non contact sport so bringing him on wouldn't be a big deal (imo)
That said in senior competitions there are physical differences that would make think twice about putting on a minor, different to the days that under 16's were regulars on their senior team, the old adage, if you are good enough then you are old enough. There are plenty of big lads at under 17 who wouldnt look out of place on senior teams..
There is no ideal age groups - odd or even.
You will always have players who have a 'good' or 'bad' birthday.
17 is probably the correct age for the majority to start with the seniors.
From my reading if the age group is to be changed to 18 and players cant then play seniors until after that age then a lot of smaller clubs are absolutely stuffed with regards to player numbers.
Quote from: Smokin Joe on September 26, 2022, 12:56:09 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on September 26, 2022, 12:29:13 PM
Quote from: Smokin Joe on September 26, 2022, 11:47:55 AM
The change to U17 and U19 isn't working, at least in Armagh in my opinion, anyway.
The U19 competition is almost non-existent (maybe a few games per year) with the result that a 17 year old lad (unless he is a genuine star) won't get much club football as they won't be fit for senior.
Like U19s, the reserve football only provides a few games per year.
Changing back to U18 would give that 17 year old lad another full year of competitive football where he will be matched better physically.
Play under 19's and under 17's. Let the stronger lads at u19 play u19 and senior. Gives a chance to lads coming from u17's who aren't ready for senior football another couple of years playing at their own level to develop physically for senior football.
Most lads I know would have played minor and senior games in a week not a bother to them.
That would be fine if the U19s was a proper competition like U17 is.
There was a huge difference in the amount of U19 games played compared to U17s. The 19s was an afterthought and lots of games not fielded or conceded.
Yeah I agree, u19's in Armagh was treated like the old u21 competition (maybe not just as bad) As far as I know currently u17 games are played on Monday nights so maybe run the under 19s on a wednesday, gives lads u17's who are playing both a chance to recover and also gives u19's a chance to recover before senior games at the weekend. Although that'll cause issues with reserve games then as I'm sure a lot of under 19s play reserves if their club has a team.
Fergal talking you through it..
https://vimeo.com/755277681/12cd175657 (https://vimeo.com/755277681/12cd175657)
Quote from: johnnycool on September 30, 2022, 03:46:24 PM
Fergal talking you through it..
https://vimeo.com/755277681/12cd175657 (https://vimeo.com/755277681/12cd175657)
In summary HQ want the U19 grade and if you don't accept what they want any lad aged 18 won't be able to play senior club football.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on September 30, 2022, 04:14:41 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on September 30, 2022, 03:46:24 PM
Fergal talking you through it..
https://vimeo.com/755277681/12cd175657 (https://vimeo.com/755277681/12cd175657)
In summary HQ want the U19 grade and if you don't accept what they want any lad aged 18 won't be able to play senior club football.
Exactly it.
And many rural clubs will go to the wall/find it very difficult to field if this rule comes in
Quote from: Taylor on September 30, 2022, 04:46:06 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on September 30, 2022, 04:14:41 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on September 30, 2022, 03:46:24 PM
Fergal talking you through it..
https://vimeo.com/755277681/12cd175657 (https://vimeo.com/755277681/12cd175657)
In summary HQ want the U19 grade and if you don't accept what they want any lad aged 18 won't be able to play senior club football.
Exactly it.
And many rural clubs will go to the wall/find it very difficult to field if this rule comes in
I get the decoupling thing, but there's nothing to keep the decoupling of juvenile to adult at U17 and also have an U18 club minor grade.
No player should be playing more than one grade at intercounty level, I'd agree with that so fire on at U17 and U19 there, but there's no reason club grades can't be different.
Massive debate about this issue and how to resolve it going on in Cork, where I'm based..and Kerry right now. Can I ask a question here? 95% of lads down here are turning 19 the year they do the leaving cert. The GAA are claiming (in video of Fergal McGill someone posted above) that it's evenly split between 18 and 19 years of age. But anecdotal evidence from most counties I've made enquiries in suggest this is well off. What's it like for young lads in the north?
I'm infuriated by the f*cking around the GAA are doing over last few years overall on this issue. I've no problem talking about burnout but they have made a mess of important years in the careers of a lot of players in my experience and are showing nothing but ignorance towards to reality on the ground if you ask me. U17 makes no sense down here anyway as I've said so I'm sure there will be a push to go to u18 and there will also be a strong resistance to imposition of "decoupling" across the board I think. Some compromise there should be possible if Croke park are open to it. I don't see the sense in stopping even a half decent 18 year old playing Junior football with his club.
Quote from: Ciarrai_thuaidh on October 06, 2022, 11:38:09 PM
Massive debate about this issue and how to resolve it going on in Cork, where I'm based..and Kerry right now. Can I ask a question here? 95% of lads down here are turning 19 the year they do the leaving cert. The GAA are claiming (in video of Fergal McGill someone posted above) that it's evenly split between 18 and 19 years of age. But anecdotal evidence from most counties I've made enquiries in suggest this is well off. What's it like for young lads in the north?
I'm infuriated by the f*cking around the GAA are doing over last few years overall on this issue. I've no problem talking about burnout but they have made a mess of important years in the careers of a lot of players in my experience and are showing nothing but ignorance towards to reality on the ground if you ask me. U17 makes no sense down here anyway as I've said so I'm sure there will be a push to go to u18 and there will also be a strong resistance to imposition of "decoupling" across the board I think. Some compromise there should be possible if Croke park are open to it. I don't see the sense in stopping even a half decent 18 year old playing Junior football with his club.
Exams can happen up north at 17 (AS) and 18 (full A level) so normally the end of May and most of June are dead months no matter what you do, but I believe that at club level it is possible to have minor at 18 and decouple at 17, giving the 18 yo's both a run out at minor and exposure to adult..
They've come up with a solution for elite player burn out which impacts 2% of that playing population but has pushed lads away from the sport a year earlier and in our club we used that extra year to break lads into adult in the hope that they stay the following year. It doesn't always work but the last couple of years have been a disaster in terms of player retention for us.
Quote from: johnnycool on October 07, 2022, 08:14:26 AM
Quote from: Ciarrai_thuaidh on October 06, 2022, 11:38:09 PM
Massive debate about this issue and how to resolve it going on in Cork, where I'm based..and Kerry right now. Can I ask a question here? 95% of lads down here are turning 19 the year they do the leaving cert. The GAA are claiming (in video of Fergal McGill someone posted above) that it's evenly split between 18 and 19 years of age. But anecdotal evidence from most counties I've made enquiries in suggest this is well off. What's it like for young lads in the north?
I'm infuriated by the f*cking around the GAA are doing over last few years overall on this issue. I've no problem talking about burnout but they have made a mess of important years in the careers of a lot of players in my experience and are showing nothing but ignorance towards to reality on the ground if you ask me. U17 makes no sense down here anyway as I've said so I'm sure there will be a push to go to u18 and there will also be a strong resistance to imposition of "decoupling" across the board I think. Some compromise there should be possible if Croke park are open to it. I don't see the sense in stopping even a half decent 18 year old playing Junior football with his club.
Exams can happen up north at 17 (AS) and 18 (full A level) so normally the end of May and most of June are dead months no matter what you do, but I believe that at club level it is possible to have minor at 18 and decouple at 17, giving the 18 yo's both a run out at minor and exposure to adult..
They've come up with a solution for elite player burn out which impacts 2% of that playing population but has pushed lads away from the sport a year earlier and in our club we used that extra year to break lads into adult in the hope that they stay the following year. It doesn't always work but the last couple of years have been a disaster in terms of player retention for us.
Surely both Departments of Education should be able to supply the ages of those sitting Leaving Cert/and both A Level exams which would help enormously clarify things enormously.
With transition year in place in most schools in the republic (quick google search says 92% of schools in 2019) and children starting school that bit later - (Four-year-olds now account for only 17 per cent of starting junior infants, a figure that stood at 47 per cent in 2001 - according to another quick and dirty google) the school finishing age in the republic has to have gone up. Throw in lads repeating and you have lads nearly being overage for the U20 grade in school.
Cork clubs looking a bit of flexibility from Croke Park. I hope they succeed.
Examiner;
Majority of Cork GAA clubs in favour of minor returning to under 18
At the end of Tuesday night's special Cork county board meeting to ascertain the views of Cork clubs on their preferred minor age-grade, Cork secretary Kevin O'Donovan called for a moratorium on decoupling at U18 until 2024.
Majority of Cork GAA clubs in favour of minor returning to under 18
Kevin O'Donovan, Cork Gaa CEO/Secretary.
TUE, 25 OCT, 2022 - 22:20
EOGHAN CORMICAN
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The vast majority of Cork clubs want minor returned to U18, but there is a deep split within the county as to whether decoupling should apply or not.
At the end of Tuesday night's special Cork county board meeting to ascertain the views of Cork clubs on their preferred minor age-grade, Cork secretary Kevin O'Donovan called for a moratorium on decoupling at U18 until 2024.
O'Donovan said it is imperative that an U18 club competition is run next year, but that the reintroduction of competitions at this age grade would not rob struggling clubs of their 18-year-olds for adult fare in 2023.
"We all know the U18 grade is an absolute cornerstone of the GAA. We do need an U18 competition [in 2023]," O'Donovan told the meeting.
"It will be a hybrid version. It might have to be short. It might have to be knockout. It can't be a full program of meaningful games without decoupling. It just can't. However, I do think there should be a moratorium on decoupling for the full year of 2023."
The Cork secretary, while acknowledging the concerns of the several rural clubs who said decoupling will sound the "death knell " for them, is in favour of decoupling at U18.
"I support decoupling despite all the reservations I see from a small club perspective. For us to survive as a club in the long run (referencing his own club Kilmeen), we must have a good minor team on an annual basis. The years we can't field, we'll join up with someone else and still give them games.
"The moratorium in 2023 would give that breathing space for the county board and clubs to look at this issue for the 10-15% of clubs that are going to be challenged by decoupling.
"I am still in favour of it, but postpone it until 2024 to allow for a bridging competition next year and work towards solutions." The majority of views expressed throughout the meeting could be neatly packaged into two bundles; clubs with healthy playing numbers were happy for minor to go back up to U18 with decoupling, while rural clubs whose playing numbers are nowhere near as plentiful supported minor being restored to U18 - but without decoupling.
If decoupling at U18 is introduced at Congress next spring, Cork GAA chairman Marc Sheehan said the county executive will explore derogations and deviations for the clubs whose adult teams will be impacted by no longer being able to call upon the U18s in the club.
"It not a surprise what is coming out of the meeting in terms of the decoupling question and the implications of that for the smaller clubs. That has to be taken on board. We are amenable to a derogation. We are amenable to an accommodation in as much as we would be allowed to do that," said Sheehan.
"But there is the bigger national picture which we are not clear on. This conversation is taking place in every other county at present. The concerns around decoupling are in other counties, as well, so I would expect there will be possibilities for derogation or some deviation. Precisely what they are, I don't know at this point in time.
"But as an executive, we are not in the business of putting any club out of business. We are amenable in as much as we are permitted." One suggestion from the floor to help struggling clubs was to allow U18s to play adult League for their club, but not championship.
"Looking at the three options from Croke Park, there is very little flexibility. Would a possible compromise be if U18 was decoupled for championship only so the U18 could play league and challenges at adult level for his club," proposed Freemount's John O'Flynn.
"For smaller clubs, the difficulty arises in fielding teams for League matches. The issue for fixture-makers is that the championship matches are the ones that are going to cause difficulty if there is no decoupling, so maybe a compromise is if you decouple for league and challenge games." Kevin O'Donovan expressed a concern at the end of the meeting that such "hybrid motions" won't survive Croke Park.
Westmeath going to vote for a return to under 18 and decoupling from adult.
Quote from: SCFC on November 04, 2022, 02:12:38 PM
Westmeath going to vote for a return to under 18 and decoupling from adult.
At 18?
18 old enough to play senior.
Quote from: johnnycool on November 05, 2022, 08:03:24 PM
Quote from: SCFC on November 04, 2022, 02:12:38 PM
Westmeath going to vote for a return to under 18 and decoupling from adult.
At 18?
Correct. Meaning a lad turning 18 on 1st January won't play his first adult game of hurling or football until he's 19 and probably 2 or 3 months old. Crazy.
In the North the under 17 system means that a young fella going into year 13 ( old lower 6th) could have no football - under 19 is a waste of time. That is unless he is an elite player. I am also of the opinion that to say small clubs will fold if they are unable to field a 17 or 18 year old means the club isn't sufficient in the first place. It may be a struggle for 1 year but generally these players will come along one year later. In many cases the clubs want the better younger player to replace a poorer older player. The welfare of the younger player isn't even considered. I know that will be an unpopular opinion.
Having been involved at underage club football for many years I also find the under 15 grade a player welfare problem. Puberty means, in my opinion, that you can have a massive difference physically from the youngest player and oldest in the age group. This is most evident in the grade one player as the matches are much more physical. Moving to even age range will lesson this problem.
Errigle Ciarain hit the nail on the head...
Subject: Motion : Re U18 with Decoupling 17 - Please refer to Coaching Officer
A chara,
You are aware of the ongoing debate regarding Underage Gradings and the recent Presentation from the Task Force regarding this issue.
You may recall, our club, along with 5 others from across the Country, brought a motion to Congress in February of this year which would have allowed Counties revert to U18/16/14 at club level if that was the preferred option within the County.
At Congress those speaking against the return to U18 recommended that we pause for reflection and convene a Special Congress later in the year (2022). Even after this request was made, the Motion received 40% support from the floor for an immediate return to U18. Whilst not enough, the message was clear that Clubs were not happy and a Return to U18 was the preferred Route.
The Recent Presentation to the Counties by Central Council has now acknowledged "there are different dynamics at play at club level as opposed to Inter Co". There appears to be an acceptance that the U19 Competition is not working a Club Level given the overlap with Adult Competitions. There also seems to be an acknowledgement that 18 years of Age is the Natural interconnector from Youth to Young Adult, whether that is within a GAA Context or any other context within society.
So, the principle of a Return to U18 Competition at Club level appears to be accepted by the Working Group, which is very pleasing.
However, there is a still a major gulf between the view of many Clubs and the view of Task Force in respect of the issue of Decoupling. The Report recommends that Decoupling at U18 must be included as part of a Return to U18 Grade.
It is our view that Decoupling is too blunt an instrument and will lead to many unintended consequences for player development at that critical age (as set out below). We acknowledge that there are issues to be overcome in terms of fixture co-ordination, particularly in Dual Counties, and that may require some flexibility in terms of Bye Laws, Starred Matches, etc.
We would also note that it is imperative that Inter Co Minor Competitions are managed within a reasonable timescale in order to help our local administrators with the fixture Calendar. This is a critical piece to the overall solution.
ADVANTAGES OF DECOUPLING AT U18
Ensures a smooth fixture planner for entire year between Minor and Adult competition.
DISADVANTAGES OF DECOUPLING AT U18
Impacts on Rural Clubs of Ireland, where the ability to field 2 adult teams is dependent on Supply of Minor footballers ( particularly on Reserve/B Competitions)
Once Minor Competition are completed, there is natural pathway for development over the remainder of the season. ( It is proven that players who have no games for a 6/9-month period, are more likely to dropout from Gaelic Games.)
The introduction into an adult environment during an 18-year old's final year, provides a safe, proven pathway to allow our young people become comfortable and secure with their much older colleagues e.g. been asked to sit as cover on bench for reserves, playing for 30 mins, provides them an opportunity to make connections with much more senior colleagues during the second half of the season.
For the Elite Player, the challenge of playing adult football is critical to their development. E.g., A County Minor, whose County exits the Championship in May, may have very little competitive football until the following April, almost 12 months.
Not only is this hugely negative for their development, but it also leads to a serious risk of Dropout.
We now attach a copy of Motion which we are asking your club to consider, and if you are supportive of a Return to U14,U16, and U18 competitions as a minimum requirement for Club participation (with decoupling to remain at 17), please propose the motion to your County Convention.
We understand that many clubs may hold a different view to ourselves, but many appear to be of the same mindset. The changes that have taken place over past 5 years have been done with the best of intentions ( i.e. to retain more players within our games and provide a pathway to Adult football). However, on the ground, it is not working, and every year we wait, another group of lads are missing out as a result,
Please debate this issue within your club, and make an informed decision, whatever that may be.
Is Mise
Quote from: SCFC on November 06, 2022, 11:07:35 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 05, 2022, 08:03:24 PM
Quote from: SCFC on November 04, 2022, 02:12:38 PM
Westmeath going to vote for a return to under 18 and decoupling from adult.
At 18?
Correct. Meaning a lad turning 18 on 1st January won't play his first adult game of hurling or football until he's 19 and probably 2 or 3 months old. Crazy.
Joke. Killer for small clubs.
Quote from: johnnycool on November 07, 2022, 11:15:32 AM
Errigle Ciarain hit the nail on the head...
Subject: Motion : Re U18 with Decoupling 17 - Please refer to Coaching Officer
A chara,
You are aware of the ongoing debate regarding Underage Gradings and the recent Presentation from the Task Force regarding this issue.
You may recall, our club, along with 5 others from across the Country, brought a motion to Congress in February of this year which would have allowed Counties revert to U18/16/14 at club level if that was the preferred option within the County.
At Congress those speaking against the return to U18 recommended that we pause for reflection and convene a Special Congress later in the year (2022). Even after this request was made, the Motion received 40% support from the floor for an immediate return to U18. Whilst not enough, the message was clear that Clubs were not happy and a Return to U18 was the preferred Route.
The Recent Presentation to the Counties by Central Council has now acknowledged "there are different dynamics at play at club level as opposed to Inter Co". There appears to be an acceptance that the U19 Competition is not working a Club Level given the overlap with Adult Competitions. There also seems to be an acknowledgement that 18 years of Age is the Natural interconnector from Youth to Young Adult, whether that is within a GAA Context or any other context within society.
So, the principle of a Return to U18 Competition at Club level appears to be accepted by the Working Group, which is very pleasing.
However, there is a still a major gulf between the view of many Clubs and the view of Task Force in respect of the issue of Decoupling. The Report recommends that Decoupling at U18 must be included as part of a Return to U18 Grade.
It is our view that Decoupling is too blunt an instrument and will lead to many unintended consequences for player development at that critical age (as set out below). We acknowledge that there are issues to be overcome in terms of fixture co-ordination, particularly in Dual Counties, and that may require some flexibility in terms of Bye Laws, Starred Matches, etc.
We would also note that it is imperative that Inter Co Minor Competitions are managed within a reasonable timescale in order to help our local administrators with the fixture Calendar. This is a critical piece to the overall solution.
ADVANTAGES OF DECOUPLING AT U18
Ensures a smooth fixture planner for entire year between Minor and Adult competition.
DISADVANTAGES OF DECOUPLING AT U18
Impacts on Rural Clubs of Ireland, where the ability to field 2 adult teams is dependent on Supply of Minor footballers ( particularly on Reserve/B Competitions)
Once Minor Competition are completed, there is natural pathway for development over the remainder of the season. ( It is proven that players who have no games for a 6/9-month period, are more likely to dropout from Gaelic Games.)
The introduction into an adult environment during an 18-year old's final year, provides a safe, proven pathway to allow our young people become comfortable and secure with their much older colleagues e.g. been asked to sit as cover on bench for reserves, playing for 30 mins, provides them an opportunity to make connections with much more senior colleagues during the second half of the season.
For the Elite Player, the challenge of playing adult football is critical to their development. E.g., A County Minor, whose County exits the Championship in May, may have very little competitive football until the following April, almost 12 months.
Not only is this hugely negative for their development, but it also leads to a serious risk of Dropout.
We now attach a copy of Motion which we are asking your club to consider, and if you are supportive of a Return to U14,U16, and U18 competitions as a minimum requirement for Club participation (with decoupling to remain at 17), please propose the motion to your County Convention.
We understand that many clubs may hold a different view to ourselves, but many appear to be of the same mindset. The changes that have taken place over past 5 years have been done with the best of intentions ( i.e. to retain more players within our games and provide a pathway to Adult football). However, on the ground, it is not working, and every year we wait, another group of lads are missing out as a result,
Please debate this issue within your club, and make an informed decision, whatever that may be.
Is Mise
Down GAA county board have voted on prosing this at the last county meeting. Its the best way and I hope the GAA heirachy will take it on board.
Dya know. Errigal Ciaran, are doing themselves no favours with the snide way they describe the only advantage of decoupling at u18 as "Ensures a smooth fixture planner for entire year between Minor and Adult competition."
Because it's not a one-issue advantage: it delivers multiple advantages surrounding insurance and player welfare.
---
Forever and ever I'll use this example. About 5 years ago, Liatroim Fontenoys (a rural club from from Co Down), concurrently made the semi-finals of the Down MFC, MHC, IFC, and IHC. There was a group of 4-5 players involved across each of the 4 squads. That's 4-5 of the brightest, most co-ordinated, most athletic young talents in their club being flogged to death for August and September (and they would hope, October too), because they happen to be both big enough for adult football, but young enough for juvenile football.
And this is no dig at Liatroim, for every club in the country would do the same to their brightest young players, should they be good enough to improve their senior team(s), whilst still eligible for minor.
I've had people fob this example off as a rarity. But with Bredagh, Castlewellan, Clonduff, Carryduff, Shamrocks all improving at hurling, this is a more likely occurrence than ever before in my own county.
Clubs can't be trusted not to burn players out. Coaches cannot be trusted not to burn players out. Unfortunately, it has to be done by administrators.
Quote from: thewobbler on November 07, 2022, 12:13:23 PM
Dya know. Errigal Ciaran, are doing themselves no favours with the snide way they describe the only advantage of decoupling at u18 as "Ensures a smooth fixture planner for entire year between Minor and Adult competition."
Because it's not a one-issue advantage: it delivers multiple advantages surrounding insurance and player welfare.
---
Forever and ever I'll use this example. About 5 years ago, Liatroim Fontenoys (a rural club from from Co Down), concurrently made the semi-finals of the Down MFC, MHC, IFC, and IHC. There was a group of 4-5 players involved across each of the 4 squads. That's 4-5 of the brightest, most co-ordinated, most athletic young talents in their club being flogged to death for August and September (and they would hope, October too), because they happen to be both big enough for adult football, but young enough for juvenile football.
And this is no dig at Liatroim, for every club in the country would do the same to their brightest young players, should they be good enough to improve their senior team(s), whilst still eligible for minor.
I've had people fob this example off as a rarity. But with Bredagh, Castlewellan, Clonduff, Carryduff, Shamrocks all improving at hurling, this is a more likely occurrence than ever before in my own county.
Clubs can't be trusted not to burn players out. Coaches cannot be trusted not to burn players out. Unfortunately, it has to be done by administrators.
I'd say the young lads weren't too worried about burnout. I'd say they were delighted. If you're competing in 4 competitions at yhe latter stages they won't have been doing any heavy training. Not a big deal at all
We are one of the few sporting associations in the world that provides two completely different sports, let alone two sports that run upon a nearly identical calendar.
It should therefore be intrinsically woven into our culture and rules, that these sports can thrive alongside each other.
Yet we are also one of the few sporting associations in the world which doesn't follow the concept that a player, once selected for a higher grade, should not also continue to play at the lower grade.
I don't actually care how much you think those youngsters enjoy training or playing Gaelic Games 7 days a week. That we allow it, is wrong.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on November 07, 2022, 12:58:32 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 07, 2022, 12:53:16 PM
We are one of the few sporting associations in the world that provides two completely different sports, let alone two sports that run upon a nearly identical calendar.
Four.
Thankfully, most people aren't eligible to play in more than two of those sports at a time.
if it go to 18s then no player should play senior, errigal ciaran don't need 17 year olds playing senior football
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on November 07, 2022, 01:14:39 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 07, 2022, 01:00:02 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on November 07, 2022, 12:58:32 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 07, 2022, 12:53:16 PM
We are one of the few sporting associations in the world that provides two completely different sports, let alone two sports that run upon a nearly identical calendar.
Four.
Thankfully, most people aren't eligible to play in more than two of those sports at a time.
Eligible?
Well, by and large, females are ineligible to play male sports, and vice versa.
stop being twisty Fionntamhnach.
Quote from: thewobbler on November 07, 2022, 12:13:23 PM
Dya know. Errigal Ciaran, are doing themselves no favours with the snide way they describe the only advantage of decoupling at u18 as "Ensures a smooth fixture planner for entire year between Minor and Adult competition."
Because it's not a one-issue advantage: it delivers multiple advantages surrounding insurance and player welfare.
---
Forever and ever I'll use this example. About 5 years ago, Liatroim Fontenoys (a rural club from from Co Down), concurrently made the semi-finals of the Down MFC, MHC, IFC, and IHC. There was a group of 4-5 players involved across each of the 4 squads. That's 4-5 of the brightest, most co-ordinated, most athletic young talents in their club being flogged to death for August and September (and they would hope, October too), because they happen to be both big enough for adult football, but young enough for juvenile football.
And this is no dig at Liatroim, for every club in the country would do the same to their brightest young players, should they be good enough to improve their senior team(s), whilst still eligible for minor.
I've had people fob this example off as a rarity. But with Bredagh, Castlewellan, Clonduff, Carryduff, Shamrocks all improving at hurling, this is a more likely occurrence than ever before in my own county.
Clubs can't be trusted not to burn players out. Coaches cannot be trusted not to burn players out. Unfortunately, it has to be done by administrators.
As you point out in the scenario you paint, Liatroim are a small, rural club (we've love to be as small as them) and were in the middle of unprecedented times, hardly happens that often to be fair, so you make a rule that impacts all small rural clubs because of a once in a thousand scenario.
You are right though with not trusting coaches to do the right thing, but it's easier managed within the club setup than say schools, intercounty and clubs but thankfully with the split season some of that burden is alleviated.
The rest of the Down clubs you mention are big clubs and won't be relying on 18yo's to get a team out at adult, let alone senior level irrespective of what rules are in place.
Don't screw over the small rural clubs by imposing a rule that will have little to no impact on you and your big club.
I know we've been here before Johnny, but for the life of me I still cannot fathom how being able to blood a few lads one season early, can be the difference between surviving or falling (or surviving/thriving).
If anything, maintaining a hard cut off point for adult games, should provide the less-obvious senior standard players in the current u-19 crop a chance to make their mark, an opportunity which they likely wouldn't get if the more-obvious senior standard players in the current u-18 crop were able to double-job for the club for the season. Let's be honest, the more-obvious senior standard players from the younger cohort will before long push the year-older players out in most cases; but not without a fight.
---
By the way, you might describe Ballyholland as a big club. And we are getting bigger, no doubt. But every senior manager we've had going back the past 7-8 years since the u17 rule came in, has bemoaned not being able to bring the more talented u17s into their team, and every single year since then, we've blooded fresh-out-of-minor footballers as soon as possible.
So honestly, I don't think clubs can be trusted not to burn out players.
Let young lads play senior at 18 if they're able for it, most of us probably played at 15 or 16 and not one bit of harm did it do. Obviously today is different with the s&c teams do so a 15 or 16 year old couldnt play in 90% of cases, but if someone is 18 and able to hold his own let him at it.
If anything I found playing senior younger gave me an advantage when I went back down to minor, you were able to break tackles against minors a whole pile easier when you were used to big men tackling you in senior football and you definitely found a whole lot more time on the ball.
Quote from: thewobbler on November 08, 2022, 11:29:29 AM
I know we've been here before Johnny, but for the life of me I still cannot fathom how being able to blood a few lads one season early, can be the difference between surviving or falling (or surviving/thriving).
If your club were in the situation you might be able to fathom it.
Quote from: Cavan19 on November 08, 2022, 12:21:20 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 08, 2022, 11:29:29 AM
I know we've been here before Johnny, but for the life of me I still cannot fathom how being able to blood a few lads one season early, can be the difference between surviving or falling (or surviving/thriving).
If your club were in the situation you might be able to fathom it.
There definitely have been clubs in Armagh in the last number of years that have only had the bare 15 a lot of times and at least one who had to field with 13 for a lot of the year. One or two 18 year olds can make a huge difference in that situation
Quote from: Cavan19 on November 08, 2022, 12:21:20 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 08, 2022, 11:29:29 AM
I know we've been here before Johnny, but for the life of me I still cannot fathom how being able to blood a few lads one season early, can be the difference between surviving or falling (or surviving/thriving).
If your club were in the situation you might be able to fathom it.
Explain the situation, please.
If it's something along the lines of having 18 x senior players available to the club, along with 5 x lads at u17 who would play but aren't allowed... then I would think the real situation is either a) your club has been haemorrhaging players for a decade for or more (at senior and juvenile), or b) the population rates for your parish aren't capable of sustaining a club, and the current u17 crop is an anomaly.
Because if those 5 x lads are actually of a mind and body to play adult football/hurling, they'll be along in 12 months' time, ready to roll.
Okay, let's say that the ability for some GAA clubs to field, and to therefore stay in business, is pretty much dependent on playing 16 and 17 year olds i.e. bringing in lads to fill in the last few spots for a year or two, before they bugger off to university or realise that playing sport as an adult isn't actually fun for lots of people. This would seem to be the thoughts from others above.
I'm actually getting this the more I think about. Thanks all.
What about this as a halfway house then?
If a player is registered with the GAA as both a hurler and a footballer, then he cannot play adult (senior or reserve) grade in either code, until he is an under-19.
This would largely solve Errigal Ciaran's "single issue" in one blow. But it would also limit the chance of burnout and injury during the club championship window.
Burnout. The single biggest myth about the GAA.
Your average 17 or 18 old is more likely to suffer from boredom than burnout.
Yes, you'll have the odd example in a particular year where some young dual player is playing week in, week out and it often draws the headlines.
But the reality for 99% of young GAA players is that they don't get enough games and that's what makes alternative sport choices like soccer and rugby attractive. A regular structured fixtures schedule.
Quote from: thewobbler on November 08, 2022, 11:29:29 AM
I know we've been here before Johnny, but for the life of me I still cannot fathom how being able to blood a few lads one season early, can be the difference between surviving or falling (or surviving/thriving).
If anything, maintaining a hard cut off point for adult games, should provide the less-obvious senior standard players in the current u-19 crop a chance to make their mark, an opportunity which they likely wouldn't get if the more-obvious senior standard players in the current u-18 crop were able to double-job for the club for the season. Let's be honest, the more-obvious senior standard players from the younger cohort will before long push the year-older players out in most cases; but not without a fight.
---
By the way, you might describe Ballyholland as a big club. And we are getting bigger, no doubt. But every senior manager we've had going back the past 7-8 years since the u17 rule came in, has bemoaned not being able to bring the more talented u17s into their team, and every single year since then, we've blooded fresh-out-of-minor footballers as soon as possible.
So honestly, I don't think clubs can be trusted not to burn out players.
That's one side of it and the better minors irrespective of cut off will go on to play senior, it's the middling ones we see are leaving a year earlier and that one year can mean a hell of a lot in terms of physical development and it's this group are impacted the most by the cut off for minor at 17. If we could get another year at U18 from them we can work with them at minor and throw them on in the last 10 minutes at reserve, junior or whatever. They still get to hurl with their peers as well.
We miss that overlap badly.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on November 08, 2022, 05:28:15 PM
Would an acceptable compromise be that once a player has finished potentially playing any competitive football/hurling in his final year at minor level (be that at either U17 or U18) for either club or county, they are then at that point legally allowed to play in competitive adult football hurling in the relevant code?
Not sure how you could police that Fionn...
Quote from: thewobbler on November 08, 2022, 12:38:17 PM
Okay, let's say that the ability for some GAA clubs to field, and to therefore stay in business, is pretty much dependent on playing 16 and 17 year olds i.e. bringing in lads to fill in the last few spots for a year or two, before they bugger off to university or realise that playing sport as an adult isn't actually fun for lots of people. This would seem to be the thoughts from others above.
I'm actually getting this the more I think about. Thanks all.
What about this as a halfway house then?
If a player is registered with the GAA as both a hurler and a footballer, then he cannot play adult (senior or reserve) grade in either code, until he is an under-19.
This would largely solve Errigal Ciaran's "single issue" in one blow. But it would also limit the chance of burnout and injury during the club championship window.
I actually laugh when people use burnout as the reason for not letting young players play adult football. Firstly, i fully agree with u17s not being allowed to play adult football, but for anyone to say that the reason for the change originally wasn't to help with the fixtures is kidding themselves.
What do people think these boys and girls be doing when their GAA season ends. I know in Tyrone, minor football ended for a lot of teams in mid June. Do people actually think that these children just rested then and did nothing until the club minors starts the next year? Most trained flat out with their club seniors anyway even though they couldnt play any games, but there are now more young GAA players playing soccer and rugby (at adult level i might add) than probably ever before.
I believe that both club and county should return to U18. Counties get the u18 grades out of the way and after minor competitons are finished, then allow them to play adult football when that is complete. And in the same way as happens now, if a club plays an 'ineligible' player, the opposing team can complain and get awarded points or the championship win.
Decoupling u18s would be an even worse decision than changing it to u17s in the first place and again the only reason they want to do this is for fixtures. To use burnout or player welfare at underage level is just ridiculous.
I think the biggest problem with GAA is the stop start nature of our fixtures. We could have 3 weeks of minor fixtures then nothing for a month. It's the same at seniors too. Other sports like soccer and rugby have a guaranteed game every Saturday for X amount of weeks in the season.
I remember winning a adult junior Championship and 3 of the best players on the team were U-17 on on the Derry minor panel. Would d we have won without them, no chance.I played at 15, I know 3 lads who played at 13, (late 80's) basically a small junior team struggles to keep their head above water. (The 3 lads were burnt out with injuries long before they were 30) It's no tickle to a senior club if they don't have 17/18yrs old but Intermediate level down, especially those with no reserve team, need them.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on November 09, 2022, 07:21:02 PM
Quote from: inobest on November 09, 2022, 01:56:58 PM
I know in Tyrone, minor football ended for a lot of teams in mid June.
For most minor football teams in Tyrone this year the season only resumed in mid-June after a two month pause in mid-April (with four rounds of the league completed) while the county minor team was playing in Ulster & All-Ireland! Only Grade 4 competitions carried on in that period while non-county players on Grade 1, 2 & 3 teams were left to stew and given only three days notice of Round 5 league fixtures during a busy exam period once the county minor team was KO'd by Kerry in the All-Ireland quarter final. Most such teams didn't end their season until well into August or even September (if they had a championship run).
that's disgraceful.
As I said earlier in the thread, in my experience in Laois anyway, the biggest problem facing players from age 17 to 19 is not too many games but the exact opposite - far too few games.
Most young lads in their last year minor (under 17) might play 4 to 6 league games before the junior cert and those would be mostly played without county players which is fine. No hold up on fixtures. No league finals or winners by the way! It's called a development league.
Championship then of 3 to 6 games with some sort of losers shields built in. So 7 to 12 competitive games in the full year for the average 17 year old who only plays one code.
It's worse for the average lad just gone out of minor who isn't ready for senior or intermediate yet. So, if he plays second or third team with his club, he'll get between 4 and 7 league games minimum and 2 championship games minimum with the possibilty of extra games if his team has a championship run.
In one way, I wouldn't mind if they went ahead and decoupled the under 18s from adult but for God's sake, give them enough games. But surely letting 18 year olds have the chance or opportunity to play adult games is the best solution.
Is there anything definitive on the way? Clubs will be getting going again pretty soon, would be helpful to know if it's going to be at U17 or U18 level (amongst other things too).
I'd imagine any revisions passed at Congress would only come in for 2024?
I had heard a rumour if it was agreed at Ulster Convention Ulster would revert to 16/18 for 2023.
It is going out to Tyrone clubs next week for a vote on u13/15/17/19 v u14/16/18/20, two weeks after they announced start dates for u13/15/17/19 but before Central Council U-turned.
It's up to each county what they want to do and whatever they want to do can start this year, they don't have to wait to 2024 to change
Its fecking confusing for clubs now. Why not make a decision to change to u18 in 2024 and stick with it. The hierarchy would do your head in.
Quote from: LeoMc on January 31, 2023, 06:53:58 PM
It is going out to Tyrone clubs next week for a vote on u13/15/17/19 v u14/16/18/20, two weeks after they announced start dates for u13/15/17/19 but before Central Council U-turned.
What are they doing about the GO Games ages? U7.5 / U9.5 and U11.5
Quote from: trailer on February 01, 2023, 09:58:18 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on January 31, 2023, 06:53:58 PM
It is going out to Tyrone clubs next week for a vote on u13/15/17/19 v u14/16/18/20, two weeks after they announced start dates for u13/15/17/19 but before Central Council U-turned.
What are they doing about the GO Games ages? U7.5 / U9.5 and U11.5
U6.5, U8.5 and U10.5, U12 etc etc.
Another fine mess created needlessly by the GAA. Most clubs have appointed managers to their varying teams and so to land them with this when training has already begun for many, is just very poor planning. I think it should have reverted back to 14, 16 & 18 but it is too late for this year for clubs to begin changing everything last minute. This should have been sorted in the Autumn time at the latest.
What a mess, yet again.
If the decision was to let counties decide why was this not made prior to Christmas?
It is now too late for this year. For example, Armagh had already decided to go with the odd numbered years (same as last year) as it would have been too late to change following the anticipated decision from Congress last week.
The GAA leadership now resembles a public body in terms of decision making - slow, reactionary, laboured, No responsibility or accountability.
Endless committees that end up hiding behind congress.
This another matter that should have been long sorted but now thrown out to the counties in a matter of fact way.
Quote from: johnnycool on February 01, 2023, 10:57:03 AM
Quote from: trailer on February 01, 2023, 09:58:18 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on January 31, 2023, 06:53:58 PM
It is going out to Tyrone clubs next week for a vote on u13/15/17/19 v u14/16/18/20, two weeks after they announced start dates for u13/15/17/19 but before Central Council U-turned.
What are they doing about the GO Games ages? U7.5 / U9.5 and U11.5
U6.5, U8.5 and U10.5, U12 etc etc.
Cheers
If counties go to u18 then the current u17 group have been shafted again. Its a bloody disgrace and there is no ownership. Make a fecking decision and stop kicking the can down the road
Quote from: Truth hurts on February 01, 2023, 02:35:43 PM
If counties go to u18 then the current u17 group have been shafted again. Its a bloody disgrace and there is no ownership. Make a fecking decision and stop kicking the can down the road
Why have they been shafted? They still get to be final year minors next year. The change down was a bigger mess.
In Tyrone the season has been reordered with Juveniles playing in the Spring and Minors and u13's later in the year, a reverse on previous seasons. Is this centrally mandated or is it a Tyrone only thing?
Three options on the table;;
National Policy on Club Age Grades
1. Maintain the core club championship age grades nationally at club level as U13/15/17 with decoupling nationally remaining at U17. At least one further age grade (as suits the particular needs of the County) should be organized between U17 and Adult in this circumstance.
2. A county that wishes to organize competitions at even age grades only (12/14/16/18) may do so provided they adopt an internal bye law to decouple at U18 (i.e. in such Counties U18's would not be permitted to playing Adult competition). At least one further age grade (as suits the particular needs of the County) should be organized between U18 and Adult in this circumstance.
3. Alternatively, a county that wishes to organize competitions at even age grades only (12/14/16/18) may do so, and retain decoupling at 17 with at least one further age grade (as suits the particular needs of the County) being organized between U18 and Adult. Players in their 18th year will only be allowed to play for or train with Adult teams post March 1st and once the signed consent of the player, their parents/guardians and the Club Executive has been provided. The Task Force also recommends that no player should have to play an Adult and U18 game within 60 hours of each other and request County CCC's to adhere to this policy.
In relation to Part 3 of the policy, it is envisaged that permission would be sought on a standard Association form (possibly digitally under the new Foireann system).The form would require to be submitted in the period from March 1st - April 1St and would essentially mean that a plyer in his 18th year would be ineligible for adult competition until post March 1st annually (i.e. until the school games programme is winding down).The form will alert those involved to the risks around burnout/overtraining/overuse injuries for players in their 18th year playing with and training for multiple teams across the Youth and Adult games programmes.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-41071787.html?fbclid=IwAR1y_vCbjWQHO9Tv64E-WmB4QgZRaf2xgqGwd3Qi-9f6VY0X4ST4choe2zI
what ie he crying about. Did he not know 18 year olds played senior football for years, its not so long ago 15 and 16 year olds would play ffs.
And they'd play u16 and Minor and schools and County development squad....
Many of them still playing at 25?
Quote from: Rossfan on February 15, 2023, 09:14:18 AM
And they'd play u16 and Minor and schools and County development squad....
Many of them still playing at 25?
How many lads coming out of minors at 17 will still be playing at 25. Lack of football puts off a lot more players than too much football.
Last year players under 17 could not play Senior, those over 17 could. It is still the same this year. The difference is those aged between 17 and 18 can now still have minor football to play. From reading his rant he seems more concerned about scheduling than welfare.
With 252 Clubs I'd say scheduling is always a headache in Cork.
18s playing Minor and Adult will of course have a major effect on scheduling.
Quote from: Rossfan on February 15, 2023, 10:36:35 AM
With 252 Clubs I'd say scheduling is always a headache in Cork.
18s playing Minor and Adult will of course have a major effect on scheduling.
Is it any different to having to ensure that you don't fix U12 or U16 games the same night you're playing a round of U14 games as that's an issue when you're a small club?
Quote from: Rossfan on February 15, 2023, 09:14:18 AM
And they'd play u16 and Minor and schools and County development squad....
Many of them still playing at 25?
Played late into my 40's, both codes... The cotton wool brigade can do one ;)
Ah sure me granny would get a game in Antrim ::)
Quote from: Rossfan on February 15, 2023, 03:29:17 PM
Ah sure me granny would get a game in Antrim ::)
We're a hurling county sure, that aul football is for keeping us fit