State of Minds last night - Linfield fans visit Clones

[magickingdom]

As I'm not a Nationalist/Republican, I'm excluded from the GAA, in the same way that I'm excluded from joining any other Nationalist political body.

by that defination then the ifa's 'football for all' campaign is a load of bollix. you will agree that nationalists are automatically excluded because politically its only ni?...

[An Fear Rua]

Sam

You make joining the GAA sound like signing up for the 'ra

In what way? I'd have thought it was more like joining the SDLP or FF/FG

that isnt what you are implying though ...
...pants on fire!

WTF are you on about? I haven't implied anything, I've stated that the GAA has political rules that exclude non-Nationalists, nothing implied, it's a statement of fact.

Basic Aim
The Association is a National Organisation which has as its
basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a
32 County Ireland through the preservation and
promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.

you have yet to produce the rule that states "if your not a nationalist you cannot join", it doesnt exist, all you do is post your interpretation and extrapolation of a statement/Basic Aim/Ethos as inferred rule, and repeat it hoping it becomes fact - no prods here.

What about the Poles, Nigerians and Chinese etc up and down Ireland who watch and play - surely as they are not Irish nationalists they shouldnt be doing this, or maybe they just want to join in and didnt want to look for an excuse.

What it all boils down to is that you have an issue with the promotion of a 32 county Irish Identity through the GAA, strange given your support for the Irish rugby team, which is based on an 32 county Irish identity.

As has been stated on here, on numerous occasions, ( and some it has actually gotten through to you) , there is absolutely nothing stopping you from playing , watching, or joing the GAA except yourself.

[laughinpaddy]

Sam

You make joining the GAA sound like signing up for the 'ra

In what way? I'd have thought it was more like joining the SDLP or FF/FG

Don't the PSNI have a GAA team, so Sammy or you implying that they to wish to join the SDLP, FF/FG?
Maybe they are all Nationalists too!

[SammyG]

I've stated that the GAA has political rules that exclude non-Nationalists, nothing implied, it's a statement of fact.

Which are Sammy, exactly?

Page 1 of the official guide. You can read it at http://www.gaa.ie/files/gaa_official_guide2003.pdf if you don't own a copy.

I'm well aware of the guide, smartarse. Now, show me exactly the words, verbatim, where it forbids anyone from participation.

Wasn't trying to be a smartarse (most people claim to have never seen the official guide). The two major issues that exlude any non-Nationalist from joining the GAA are the following in the Official guide

"The primary purpose of the G.A.A.
is the organisation of native pastimes and the
promotion of athletic fitness as a means to create a
disciplined, self- reliant, national-minded manhood."

and

"Since she has no control over all the national
territory, Ireland's claim to nationhood is impaired. It
would be still more impaired if she were to lose her
language, if she failed to provide a decent livelihood
for her people at home, or if she were to forsake her
own games and customs in favour of the games and
customs of another nation. If pride in the attributes of
nationhood dies, something good and distinctive in
our race dies with it. Each national quality that is lost
makes us so much poorer as a Nation. Today, the
native games take on a new significance when it is
realised that they have been a part, and still are a part,
of the Nation's desire to live her own life, to govern
her own affairs."

And most importantly the Basic Aim of the GAA, namely
"Basic Aim
The Association is a National Organisation which has as its
basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a
32 County Ireland through the preservation and
promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes."

Those are Irish Nationalist aspirations so by defintion they exclude any Unionist.

[SammyG]

Sam

You make joining the GAA sound like signing up for the 'ra

In what way? I'd have thought it was more like joining the SDLP or FF/FG

Don't the PSNI have a GAA team, so Sammy or you implying that they to wish to join the SDLP, FF/FG?
Maybe they are all Nationalists too!

Yes any members of the PSNI team (or any other team) must be Nationalists.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Those are Irish Nationalist aspirations so by defintion they exclude any Unionist.

Bullshit, but you just build that wall higher and higher if you like, never too high for a siege mentality eh?

[Gnevin]

I've stated that the GAA has political rules that exclude non-Nationalists, nothing implied, it's a statement of fact.

Which are Sammy, exactly?

Lets not get into this whole debate again

[SammyG]

What it all boils down to is that you have an issue with the promotion of a 32 county Irish Identity through the GAA, strange given your support for the Irish rugby team, which is based on an 32 county Irish identity.

Completely spurious comparison. The IRFU have no rules and regulations that enforce any particular political ideal (in fact they actually have rules stopping political interference).

As has been stated on here, on numerous occasions, ( and some it has actually gotten through to you) , there is absolutely nothing stopping you from playing , watching, or joing the GAA except yourself.

Again (as it was a cople of posts ago) watching, attending, going to a do in a social club, etc are all available to anybody that wants to. I have never said anything different. Membership howeber is only available to people who are willing to sign-up to the rules and aims, so excludes Unionists.




[/quote]

[snatter]

I've stated that the GAA has political rules that exclude non-Nationalists, nothing implied, it's a statement of fact.

Which are Sammy, exactly?

Page 1 of the official guide. You can read it at http://www.gaa.ie/files/gaa_official_guide2003.pdf if you don't own a copy.

I'm well aware of the guide, smartarse. Now, show me exactly the words, verbatim, where it forbids anyone from participation.

Wasn't trying to be a smartarse (most people claim to have never seen the official guide). The two major issues that exlude any non-Nationalist from joining the GAA are the following in the Official guide

"The primary purpose of the G.A.A.
is the organisation of native pastimes and the
promotion of athletic fitness as a means to create a
disciplined, self- reliant, national-minded manhood."

and

"Since she has no control over all the national
territory, Ireland's claim to nationhood is impaired. It
would be still more impaired if she were to lose her
language, if she failed to provide a decent livelihood
for her people at home, or if she were to forsake her
own games and customs in favour of the games and
customs of another nation. If pride in the attributes of
nationhood dies, something good and distinctive in
our race dies with it. Each national quality that is lost
makes us so much poorer as a Nation. Today, the
native games take on a new significance when it is
realised that they have been a part, and still are a part,
of the Nation's desire to live her own life, to govern
her own affairs."

And most importantly the Basic Aim of the GAA, namely
"Basic Aim
The Association is a National Organisation which has as its
basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a
32 County Ireland through the preservation and
promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes."

Those are Irish Nationalist aspirations so by defintion they exclude any Unionist.

And the flip-side of that failed argumnet is that the NOrthern Ireland team is partitionist, and by extraction, promotes the separation of Ireland, and automatically excludes nationalists.

Crap of course, but that's the mirror image of the argument you're making.

I repeat:

Just because it promotes Irish sports doesn't make it anti Unionist or anti-British.

Most fair minded people accept that its not a zero-sum game whereby promoting one set of cultural values is an attack on another.
To say otehrwise is like saying that people who like falcons can't join a pigeon fanciers club if they want.

You are making a fundamental mistake in confusing promotion of a national identity with political belief.
When you look at the GAA, you might see a bunch of people "reading from the Shinners handbook", but the reality is different.

[SammyG]

Those are Irish Nationalist aspirations so by defintion they exclude any Unionist.

Bullshit, but you just build that wall higher and higher if you like, never too high for a siege mentality eh?

Brilliant logic, you support excluding a sizeable proportion of people on this island but it's me who has a siege mentality. You couldn't make it up.

[laughinpaddy]

Totally agree snatter, the nationalism (note the small n) promoted by the GAA is not that of political Nationalism but of Cultural nationalism!

[Fiodoir Ard Mhacha]

Sam

Maybe Nelson McCausland can be brought on board to start a campaign to remove that particularly 'offensive' statement, and be incandesent whilst it still remains.

[An Fear Rua]

Completely spurious comparison. The IRFU have no rules and regulations that enforce any particular political ideal (in fact they actually have rules stopping political interference.

Does the Irish Rugby team represent (and therefore promote based on that representation) an Ireland of 32 counties/4 provinces?
Do you support that team?

[lynchbhoy]

there you go folks
I take no delight in pointing out that this is the kind of mentality that nationalists are up against across the board in ni when it comes to the mindset of loyalist/unionists

wordplay, twisting the meaning of things changing context etc

it is of course irrelevent that membership of the GAA in actuality does not have anything really to do with the doc to which mr G is referring.
Even then, by looking towards a 32 Ireland state, this could also be construed as a 'sportingly' united Ireland (like the rugby)
and not necessarily a political one - although there are many meanings that could be taken from this
but all in all none of them ACTUALLY alter the fact that ANYONE can join a GAA club , and your motives/ideals/religion/disposition etc etc are ever questioned because the GAA and its members as an organisation do not care.

but unionist/loyalists like Ower sam will never wish to see or admit that

this is the kind of mentality the GAA and nationalist/republican people of the six counties have had to deal with for 40 years

but at least now you folks are getting a good demo of this and the mentality behind it all, therefore can see how nationalists are 'welcomed' but not wanted by the soccer fraternity in NI !

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Those are Irish Nationalist aspirations so by defintion they exclude any Unionist.

Bullshit, but you just build that wall higher and higher if you like, never too high for a siege mentality eh?

Brilliant logic, you support excluding a sizeable proportion of people on this island but it's me who has a siege mentality. You couldn't make it up.

I support excluding no one (I can't find the words 'exclude' or 'forbid' in that document, can you?) and we've been here before, I even suggested a benign form of words for the GAA statement of purpose, but even that wasn't acceptable to you.

We can all, should we try hard enough, find something in everything that we have fundamental objections to, but only if we want to. You choose to exclude yourself, but please desist from your (recurrent) black propaganda.