gaaboard.com

It's looking more likely that FF is slowly disintegrating and more info is in the Irish Examiner story below.

Is it time that FF and FG merged? Because it looks like only of these two party's will be left standing.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/p...njKtmUu487QWjU

I mean, they've got the Taoiseach job, so they've doing somewhat ok.

Quote from: macker15 on April 10, 2021, 10:59:54 PM

It's looking more likely that FF is slowly disintegrating and more info is in the Irish Examiner story below.

Is it time that FF and FG merged? Because it looks like only of these two party's will be left standing.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/p...njKtmUu487QWjU

Be interested in views of FF supporters on this .
As a "northerner" I find it Interesting that FF's dramatic regression has coincided with partitionist leaders out of touch with the United Ireland origins of the party.  With economic policies being similar, What separated FF leaders from
FG leaders was their vocal commitment to a United ireland . Bertie, Charlie, Albert had their faults but they were perceived to have an affinity with the Irish in the north . Micheál Martin (and Tbf all FG taoisigh ) never appeared to have that affinity . Thus many of the more republican FF supporters moved over to SF ? Thus Micheál's unhealthy obsession with SF.

Quote from: 6th sam on April 11, 2021, 12:58:06 AM

Quote from: macker15 on April 10, 2021, 10:59:54 PM

It's looking more likely that FF is slowly disintegrating and more info is in the Irish Examiner story below.

Is it time that FF and FG merged? Because it looks like only of these two party's will be left standing.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/p...njKtmUu487QWjU

Be interested in views of FF supporters on this .
As a "northerner" I find it Interesting that FF's dramatic regression has coincided with partitionist leaders out of touch with the United Ireland origins of the party.  With economic policies being similar, What separated FF leaders from
FG leaders was their vocal commitment to a United ireland . Bertie, Charlie, Albert had their faults but they were perceived to have an affinity with the Irish in the north . Micheál Martin (and Tbf all FG taoisigh ) never appeared to have that affinity . Thus many of the more republican FF supporters moved over to SF ? Thus Micheál's unhealthy obsession with SF.

Most FF supporters these days wouldnt even openly admit it.

Quote from: 6th sam on April 11, 2021, 12:58:06 AM

Quote from: macker15 on April 10, 2021, 10:59:54 PM

It's looking more likely that FF is slowly disintegrating and more info is in the Irish Examiner story below.

Is it time that FF and FG merged? Because it looks like only of these two party's will be left standing.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/p...njKtmUu487QWjU

Be interested in views of FF supporters on this .
As a "northerner" I find it Interesting that FF's dramatic regression has coincided with partitionist leaders out of touch with the United Ireland origins of the party.  With economic policies being similar, What separated FF leaders from
FG leaders was their vocal commitment to a United ireland . Bertie, Charlie, Albert had their faults but they were perceived to have an affinity with the Irish in the north . Micheál Martin (and Tbf all FG taoisigh ) never appeared to have that affinity . Thus many of the more republican FF supporters moved over to SF ? Thus Micheál's unhealthy obsession with SF.

I think FFs role in the financial crisis is the main reason. A lot of people lost jobs, businesses, homes, emigrated, and they blame FF for that.
Also, the party's TDs are mainly late middle-aged rural men, not an appealing prospect for young or urban voters.
UI doesn't come into it at all really IMO.

SF and to a lesser extent FG now own FF votes.
SF would need to fail in Government for FF to rise again. Eg if the economy collapsed and SF were
revealed to be incompetent. Voters don't like losing their savings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih9m0WvAwFo

Tubberman is spot on.
The North has little to do with how most in the 26 Vote.
The 14% new voters SF gained between May 19 and Feb 20 were mainly a dissatisfied 2 fingers to the establishment younger cohort.
FF are still the Builders party going by the Housing Minister's proposed new Legislation.
They may survive as the kingmakers in Coalitions if they can maintain 15 to 20 seats.

Fiana Fail is a busted flush and unless the party can re-radicilse itself and create a new identity, it's future is far from certain. The party had been associated with graft and corruption since the days of Charlie Haughey and the public have been getting more disillusioned over the years since then.
IMO, Martin seems to be a decent man but he lacks mass appeal and it's obvious the party is wrecked with plots and counterplots.  Leo is a far more polished operator and is beating Martin out of sights in all manners of opinion polls.
Unless Martin gets an extraordinary stroke of luck with, say, control of the virus or a breakthrough with the Peace process, FF could be holding their AGMs in a phone booth.
I personally like MLMD but I don't think SF is anywhere near becoming the dominant force in the republic- not yet anyway.
Coming into the last GF, they were lagging well behind in the opinion polls. They did very well because FFG was useless. Homelessness was the issue that concerned the people most  while Leo thought he was wowing the electorate by having lots of photos taken with Boris and Merkel and the likes.
But right now, FG and SF are neck and neck in opinion polls. In the last Red C poll (Sunday Business Post) both are on 32% with FF on 14%. (IIRC)
Brexit was far too abstract for most people but a photo of a small child eating his dinner off the pavement in O'Connell Street was something else. I think FG deserved to lose that election because they had gotten out of touch with the general public. Fianna Fail was tarred with the same brush because of the confidence and supply pact with FG and Martin wasn't adroit enough to see disaster coming and dissociate from FG before the election was upon them.
FF's glory days are over.

Cheers lads , fair and helpful analysis .
Interesting days ahead

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 11, 2021, 12:51:24 PM

Fiana Fail is a busted flush and unless the party can re-radicilse itself and create a new identity, it's future is far from certain. The party had been associated with graft and corruption since the days of Charlie Haughey and the public have been getting more disillusioned over the years since then.
IMO, Martin seems to be a decent man but he lacks mass appeal and it's obvious the party is wrecked with plots and counterplots.  Leo is a far more polished operator and is beating Martin out of sights in all manners of opinion polls.
Unless Martin gets an extraordinary stroke of luck with, say, control of the virus or a breakthrough with the Peace process, FF could be holding their AGMs in a phone booth.
I personally like MLMD but I don't think SF is anywhere near becoming the dominant force in the republic- not yet anyway.
Coming into the last GF, they were lagging well behind in the opinion polls. They did very well because FFG was useless. Homelessness was the issue that concerned the people most  while Leo thought he was wowing the electorate by having lots of photos taken with Boris and Merkel and the likes.
But right now, FG and SF are neck and neck in opinion polls. In the last Red C poll (Sunday Business Post) both are on 32% with FF on 14%. (IIRC)
Brexit was far too abstract for most people but a photo of a small child eating his dinner off the pavement in O'Connell Street was something else. I think FG deserved to lose that election because they had gotten out of touch with the general public. Fianna Fail was tarred with the same brush because of the confidence and supply pact with FG and Martin wasn't adroit enough to see disaster coming and dissociate from FG before the election was upon them.
FF's glory days are over.

Agree with most of that. Given that both fg and ff are ideologically broadly centre-right parties will they merge?
      Appreciate that historically they hate each other's guts but given their recent co-operation in C&S deal is it a runner?
      Not to derail the thread but what has happened to the labour party since 2011? Surely they should be sweeping up those voters dissatisfied with the mainstream parties and provide a genuine left wing opposition. Has Sinn Fein's rise and some of the other smaller parties been at their expense?
        In many ways the South's political machinations are much more complicated than most political systems in western Europe.
       

The social democrats are likely to increase their vote and seats at the next election. They have a few impressive tds and id expect them do well in future.

If the sdlp were to align themselves with a 26 county party, the Social Democrats would be a better fit than either ff or fg.

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 11, 2021, 12:51:24 PM

Fiana Fail is a busted flush and unless the party can re-radicilse itself and create a new identity, it's future is far from certain. The party had been associated with graft and corruption since the days of Charlie Haughey and the public have been getting more disillusioned over the years since then.
IMO, Martin seems to be a decent man but he lacks mass appeal and it's obvious the party is wrecked with plots and counterplots.  Leo is a far more polished operator and is beating Martin out of sights in all manners of opinion polls.
Unless Martin gets an extraordinary stroke of luck with, say, control of the virus or a breakthrough with the Peace process, FF could be holding their AGMs in a phone booth.
I personally like MLMD but I don't think SF is anywhere near becoming the dominant force in the republic- not yet anyway.
Coming into the last GF, they were lagging well behind in the opinion polls. They did very well because FFG was useless. Homelessness was the issue that concerned the people most  while Leo thought he was wowing the electorate by having lots of photos taken with Boris and Merkel and the likes.
But right now, FG and SF are neck and neck in opinion polls. In the last Red C poll (Sunday Business Post) both are on 32% with FF on 14%. (IIRC)
Brexit was far too abstract for most people but a photo of a small child eating his dinner off the pavement in O'Connell Street was something else. I think FG deserved to lose that election because they had gotten out of touch with the general public. Fianna Fail was tarred with the same brush because of the confidence and supply pact with FG and Martin wasn't adroit enough to see disaster coming and dissociate from FG before the election was upon them.
FF's glory days are over.

As Seafoid says, people don't like losing their savings. They can be just as quick however to forget how FG restored the country's fortunes, coming as they were from a very low ebb. I 've always held the opinion that the housing crisis is a red herring to some extent; a lot of the problem is that the section of the community that are allocated social housing don't respect what they're given, trash it, and expect another handout. That can only last so long. People in this country simply have to take more responsibility for their own well-being and not be reliant on wall-to-wall state assistance.

Maybe but a large group of younger folk especially in cities/big towns and Eastern Counties cannot afford to buy houses.
FG with FF C&S made little effort to help that cohort by expecting private  sector builders and landlords to sort out a societal issue.
Once the public finances had been stabilised from 2015 onwards they could have been implementing sone kind of affordable housing schemes, tenant purchase schemes etc but they just sat back and ignored the issue.

Quote from: mouview on April 11, 2021, 01:48:22 PM

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 11, 2021, 12:51:24 PM

Fiana Fail is a busted flush and unless the party can re-radicilse itself and create a new identity, it's future is far from certain. The party had been associated with graft and corruption since the days of Charlie Haughey and the public have been getting more disillusioned over the years since then.
IMO, Martin seems to be a decent man but he lacks mass appeal and it's obvious the party is wrecked with plots and counterplots.  Leo is a far more polished operator and is beating Martin out of sights in all manners of opinion polls.
Unless Martin gets an extraordinary stroke of luck with, say, control of the virus or a breakthrough with the Peace process, FF could be holding their AGMs in a phone booth.
I personally like MLMD but I don't think SF is anywhere near becoming the dominant force in the republic- not yet anyway.
Coming into the last GF, they were lagging well behind in the opinion polls. They did very well because FFG was useless. Homelessness was the issue that concerned the people most  while Leo thought he was wowing the electorate by having lots of photos taken with Boris and Merkel and the likes.
But right now, FG and SF are neck and neck in opinion polls. In the last Red C poll (Sunday Business Post) both are on 32% with FF on 14%. (IIRC)
Brexit was far too abstract for most people but a photo of a small child eating his dinner off the pavement in O'Connell Street was something else. I think FG deserved to lose that election because they had gotten out of touch with the general public. Fianna Fail was tarred with the same brush because of the confidence and supply pact with FG and Martin wasn't adroit enough to see disaster coming and dissociate from FG before the election was upon them.
FF's glory days are over.

As Seafoid says, people don't like losing their savings. They can be just as quick however to forget how FG restored the country's fortunes, coming as they were from a very low ebb. I 've always held the opinion that the housing crisis is a red herring to some extent; a lot of the problem is that the section of the community that are allocated social housing don't respect what they're given, trash it, and expect another handout. That can only last so long. People in this country simply have to take more responsibility for their own well-being and not be reliant on wall-to-wall state assistance.

You justr cannot be serious! The sight of little Aaron, a five year old, having to eat his dinner off a pavement in Dublin cost FG thousands of votes.  There wasn't a shred of concern for the homeless and FG had a totally ineffectual mimistert, Eoghan Murphy, who was losing hands down to the Sinn Fein spokesman on houising.
I mean alll this happened in the very recent past  and there's any amount of links you can reference.
The aspersions you cast on the homeless are without foundation- if you google a few reports in any half decent   newspaper, you won't have to trawl far to get the truth.
FG did not cause the homeless situation in the fierst place. There had been a lack of social housing for years before they took over but, by God, they made a bad situation much worse.
And another thing, the oul' platitude that FG was always ready to do their public duty and were ever ready to step in and restore the country's finances after a spell of FF mismanagement at the helm doesn't stand up to scrutiny because every time they succeeded FF in government they got dumped on their arses next time around!
Enda was the first FG taoiseach to win a second time in ofice.

Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2021, 02:47:00 PM
Maybe but a large group of younger folk especially in cities/big towns and Eastern Counties cannot afford to buy houses.
FG with FF C&S made little effort to help that cohort by expecting private  sector builders and landlords to sort out a societal issue.
Once the public finances had been stabilised from 2015 onwards they could have been implementing sone kind of affordable housing schemes, tenant purchase schemes etc but they just sat back and ignored the issue.

100% Ross!
Public memory cannot be that short.

Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2021, 11:20:33 AM
Tubberman is spot on.
The North has little to do with how most in the 26 Vote.
The 14% new voters SF gained between May 19 and Feb 20 were mainly a dissatisfied 2 fingers to the establishment younger cohort.
FF are still the Builders party going by the Housing Minister's proposed new Legislation.
They may survive as the kingmakers in Coalitions if they can maintain 15 to 20 seats.

Spoken like a true closet FF voter. This is the rare breed I'm telling you about. I dare say Lar is one too. They'll publicly agree on all their ills but when they get into the voting station they'll heat their daddy and grand daddy's whispering to them to tick FF.

The younger generation dont give a shit about this tradition but the FF boys can not bring themselves to face reality and so they talk about losing votes due to protest.

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:12:18 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2021, 11:20:33 AM
Tubberman is spot on.
The North has little to do with how most in the 26 Vote.
The 14% new voters SF gained between May 19 and Feb 20 were mainly a dissatisfied 2 fingers to the establishment younger cohort.
FF are still the Builders party going by the Housing Minister's proposed new Legislation.
They may survive as the kingmakers in Coalitions if they can maintain 15 to 20 seats.

Spoken like a true closet FF voter. This is the rare breed I'm telling you about. I dare say Lar is one too. They'll publicly agree on all their ills but when they get into the voting station they'll heat their daddy and grand daddy's whispering to them to tick FF.

The younger generation dont give a shit about this tradition but the FF boys can not bring themselves to face reality and so they talk about losing votes due to protest.

He's right that what happens in the north doesn't effect elections in the south and the increase in the SF vote is a protest vote. The Labour Party know all about that in the south.

When SF get into government they'll have to follow up on their promises and if they don't their vote will disappear just as quickly as it arrived

Quote from: dublin7 on April 11, 2021, 05:18:50 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:12:18 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2021, 11:20:33 AM
Tubberman is spot on.
The North has little to do with how most in the 26 Vote.
The 14% new voters SF gained between May 19 and Feb 20 were mainly a dissatisfied 2 fingers to the establishment younger cohort.
FF are still the Builders party going by the Housing Minister's proposed new Legislation.
They may survive as the kingmakers in Coalitions if they can maintain 15 to 20 seats.

Spoken like a true closet FF voter. This is the rare breed I'm telling you about. I dare say Lar is one too. They'll publicly agree on all their ills but when they get into the voting station they'll heat their daddy and grand daddy's whispering to them to tick FF.

The younger generation dont give a shit about this tradition but the FF boys can not bring themselves to face reality and so they talk about losing votes due to protest.

He's right that what happens in the north doesn't effect elections in the south and the increase in the SF vote is a protest vote. The Labour Party know all about that in the south.

When SF get into government they'll have to follow up on their promises and if they don't their vote will disappear just as quickly as it arrived

I didnt mean to bold the part about the North, it was the 2nd sentence

Careful Dub or you'll have SFitchy telling you how you act in the polling booth.
I thought that was all secret.
Highly unlikely that 200,000 or whatever voters became convinced Shinbers in the 9 months after May 2019.

I voted sinn fein in last number of elections, not ashamed to say it either to anyone who asks. However I find it odd a fella who talks shite day after day  on an Internet forum under a pseudonym would be too shy to admit who they voted for

Politics in Ireland now is a game of musical chairs.

Whoever is in power when the next crash happens will be destroyed at the following election. Voters like the perception of competence and crashes destroy this.

https://youtu.be/dPUhxJHo_Bs



If FF are that party next time they are fucked but if they are not they will own the future.

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:34:03 PM
I voted sinn fein in last number of elections, not ashamed to say it either to anyone who asks. However I find it odd a fella who talks shite day after day  on an Internet forum under a pseudonym would be too shy to admit who they voted for

Last GE I voted Independent 1 and 2.
I left FF, FG and SF blank.
Happy now?

Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2021, 05:29:07 PM
Careful Dub or you'll have SFitchy telling you how you act in the polling booth.
I thought that was all secret.
Highly unlikely that 200,000 or whatever voters became convinced Shinbers in the 9 months after May 2019.

It was pointed out previously that one of their candidates topped the poll having never been elected previously and spending the last week of the election campaign out of the country on holidays.

They'll more than likely be the biggest party in the south after the next election and they'll have to go into government then. Then we'll see how popular they are  when they have to make tough decisions

I voted independent no 1 the last couple of elections

Quote from: seafoid on April 11, 2021, 05:41:06 PM
Politics in Ireland now is a game of musical chairs.

Whoever is in power when the next crash happens will be destroyed at the following election. Voters like the perception of competence and crashes destroy this.

https://youtu.be/dPUhxJHo_Bs



If FF are that party next time they are fucked but if they are not they will own the future.

You are basically calling voters Stupid. I dont accept that given FF ran the country for decades under all sorts of appalling events. Give voters a bit more credit than that.

Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2021, 05:44:12 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:34:03 PM
I voted sinn fein in last number of elections, not ashamed to say it either to anyone who asks. However I find it odd a fella who talks shite day after day  on an Internet forum under a pseudonym would be too shy to admit who they voted for

Last GE I voted Independent 1 and 2.
I left FF, FG and SF blank.
Happy now?

Tell us who the independents were, we can then apply some scrutiny to them.

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:47:13 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2021, 05:44:12 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:34:03 PM
I voted sinn fein in last number of elections, not ashamed to say it either to anyone who asks. However I find it odd a fella who talks shite day after day  on an Internet forum under a pseudonym would be too shy to admit who they voted for

Last GE I voted Independent 1 and 2.
I left FF, FG and SF blank.
Happy now?

Tell us who the independents were, we can then apply some scrutiny to them.

You have some neck on you!

Quote from: Tubberman on April 11, 2021, 05:52:26 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:47:13 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2021, 05:44:12 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:34:03 PM
I voted sinn fein in last number of elections, not ashamed to say it either to anyone who asks. However I find it odd a fella who talks shite day after day  on an Internet forum under a pseudonym would be too shy to admit who they voted for

Last GE I voted Independent 1 and 2.
I left FF, FG and SF blank.
Happy now?

Tell us who the independents were, we can then apply some scrutiny to them.

You have some neck on you!

Why so? I assume Rossfan is not his real name. Rossfan throws a lot of criticism around about SF, so I don't see the harm in him telling us who these 2 independents were. If he's to embarrassed to do that fair enough, I cant force him.

Look up the list of TDs and you'll see.
If they are embarrassing fair enough but bejases you should have seen the rest of the candidates!

Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2021, 06:39:18 PM
Look up the list of TDs and you'll see.
If they are embarrassing fair enough but bejases you should have seen the rest of the candidates!

Why can't you tell us, do you forget?

Is one off of them a disgraced former minister and former FG man by any chance? People in glass houses and all that.

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 11, 2021, 04:57:40 PM

You justr cannot be serious! The sight of little Aaron, a five year old, having to eat his dinner off a pavement in Dublin cost FG thousands of votes.  There wasn't a shred of concern for the homeless and FG had a totally ineffectual mimistert, Eoghan Murphy, who was losing hands down to the Sinn Fein spokesman on houising.
I mean alll this happened in the very recent past  and there's any amount of links you can reference.
The aspersions you cast on the homeless are without foundation- if you google a few reports in any half decent   newspaper, you won't have to trawl far to get the truth.
FG did not cause the homeless situation in the fierst place. There had been a lack of social housing for years before they took over but, by God, they made a bad situation much worse.
And another thing, the oul' platitude that FG was always ready to do their public duty and were ever ready to step in and restore the country's finances after a spell of FF mismanagement at the helm doesn't stand up to scrutiny because every time they succeeded FF in government they got dumped on their arses next time around!
Enda was the first FG taoiseach to win a second time in ofice.

And why does Aaron have to eat his dinner off the footpath in the first place? What were Mammy (and Daddy if he was lucky) doing about it? What were SF going to do about it, with their money-tree economics? Who was minding the kids when those two hit off to Dubai for 'cosmetic surgery' last week? When it came to doing the time for it, they objected, saying there was no-one to mind them. Of course, provision has to be made for providing emergency accommodation and housing for genuine cases. How many times do you read of addicts having beds in hostels and preferring to sleeping rough instead. There simply has to be more of an onus on people in this nation to look out for themselves and not to be encouraged to look for the easy way out of social welfare and free housing constantly.

Quote from: mouview on April 11, 2021, 07:29:09 PM

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 11, 2021, 04:57:40 PM

You justr cannot be serious! The sight of little Aaron, a five year old, having to eat his dinner off a pavement in Dublin cost FG thousands of votes.  There wasn't a shred of concern for the homeless and FG had a totally ineffectual mimistert, Eoghan Murphy, who was losing hands down to the Sinn Fein spokesman on houising.
I mean alll this happened in the very recent past  and there's any amount of links you can reference.
The aspersions you cast on the homeless are without foundation- if you google a few reports in any half decent   newspaper, you won't have to trawl far to get the truth.
FG did not cause the homeless situation in the fierst place. There had been a lack of social housing for years before they took over but, by God, they made a bad situation much worse.
And another thing, the oul' platitude that FG was always ready to do their public duty and were ever ready to step in and restore the country's finances after a spell of FF mismanagement at the helm doesn't stand up to scrutiny because every time they succeeded FF in government they got dumped on their arses next time around!
Enda was the first FG taoiseach to win a second time in ofice.

And why does Aaron have to eat his dinner off the footpath in the first place? What were Mammy (and Daddy if he was lucky) doing about it? What were SF going to do about it, with their money-tree economics? Who was minding the kids when those two hit off to Dubai for 'cosmetic surgery' last week? When it came to doing the time for it, they objected, saying there was no-one to mind them. Of course, provision has to be made for providing emergency accommodation and housing for genuine cases. How many times do you read of addicts having beds in hostels and preferring to sleeping rough instead. There simply has to be more of an onus on people in this nation to look out for themselves and not to be encouraged to look for the easy way out of social welfare and free housing constantly.

Spoken like a true FG man. I'd prefer to take my information about the terrible increases in homelessness and the reason for same from the many heros on the ground dealing with it. Using an obscure example to try and paint a general picture is the stuff of FG.

When I was young I would have jumped for joy if FF was wiped out: they stood for everything I saw bad about Ireland: a land of brown envelopes, too much power for the church, the narrow mindedness that blocked divorce in 1986, awful planning which had its apotheosis in ghost estates, zombie hotels, and bank bailouts, and of course high emigration of youth. That's a bygone Ireland fir the most part so it doesn't seem quite the celebration now. Ireland is a centrist country so a centrist party could always make a comeback. Fine Gael seemed dead and buried at one stage and those of us who were Labour voters at time thought Ireland was about to go Left/Right and to a more adversarial two party parliament like UK. But Irish people are not as binary as those who study politics in places like UCD and Trinity like to think. Of course they are thinking the same again with Left Right Sinn Fein/FG battles of the future. FG did come back from dead all those years ago by cornering a lot of the Libertarian voter, liberal on social issues, and liberal on free market economics, and retaining gentleman farmers down the country. FF however are badly lost at moment, but it is nothing a new charismatic leader could not solve. The bastards.

Quote from: weareros on April 11, 2021, 08:03:47 PM
When I was young I would have jumped for joy if FF was wiped out: they stood for everything I saw bad about Ireland: a land of brown envelopes, too much power for the church, the narrow mindedness that blocked divorce in 1986, awful planning which had its apotheosis in ghost estates, zombie hotels, and bank bailouts, and of course high emigration of youth. That's a bygone Ireland fir the most part so it doesn't seem quite the celebration now. Ireland is a centrist country so a centrist party could always make a comeback. Fine Gael seemed dead and buried at one stage and those of us who were Labour voters at time thought Ireland was about to go Left/Right and to a more adversarial two party parliament like UK. But Irish people are not as binary as those who study politics in places like UCD and Trinity like to think. Of course they are thinking the same again with Left Right Sinn Fein/FG battles of the future. FG did come back from dead all those years ago by cornering a lot of the Libertarian voter, liberal on social issues, and liberal on free market economics, and retaining gentleman farmers down the country. FF however are badly lost at moment, but it is nothing a new charismatic leader could not solve. The bastards.

Well its true that they have without doubt (and leaving party allegiances asdide) the worst leader they have ever had and the worst Taoiseach the country ever has seen, missing in action in a global pandemic. But where will this new charasmatic leader come from, I dont see anything but the same old same old in the party ranks. And thats a good thing.

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:46:05 PM

Quote from: seafoid on April 11, 2021, 05:41:06 PM
Politics in Ireland now is a game of musical chairs.

Whoever is in power when the next crash happens will be destroyed at the following election. Voters like the perception of competence and crashes destroy this.

https://youtu.be/dPUhxJHo_Bs



If FF are that party next time they are fucked but if they are not they will own the future.

You are basically calling voters Stupid. I dont accept that given FF ran the country for decades under all sorts of appalling events. Give voters a bit more credit than that.

The parties are stupid. The voters are not.
It's a groupthink problem..The parties listen to the Department of Finance. They don't listen to.the people
. This is why the airports are open.

What was FF? It was the party of patronage for people often with the béal bocht who thought the State owed them something. FF ran its clinics bestowing on its voters the rights to which they were entitled anyway.

There was always an undercurrent of resentment mixed defiance. Like McCreevy saying "When I have money I spend it". As if  planning was just for educated people.

Cowen was the epitome of late successful FF.  He was supposed to be the brains with the mind for the numbers but was unfortunately in charge when the shit hit the fan. And it was all a show. Nobody in FF knew what to do.

Whatever happens, FF's constituency is still out there, bitching. Whoever wins it probably wins the big prize.

Quote from: ardtole on April 11, 2021, 01:44:12 PM
The social democrats are likely to increase their vote and seats at the next election. They have a few impressive tds and id expect them do well in future.

If the sdlp were to align themselves with a 26 county party, the Social Democrats would be a better fit than either ff or fg.

Ah now come on, Claire Hanna is already confused enough as it is:

- Member of the SDLP
- In a partnership with FF
- Vocal supporter of Labour
- Cavassed for at least two FG candidates in the last GE.

Now you want to add the Soc Dems to the mix?

Quote from: seafoid on April 11, 2021, 08:33:49 PM
What was FF? It was the party of patronage for people often with the béal bocht who thought the State owed them something. FF ran its clinics bestowing on its voters the rights to which they were entitled anyway.

There was always an undercurrent of resentment mixed defiance. Like McCreevy saying "When I have money I spend it". As if  planning was just for educated people.

Cowen was the epitome of late successful FF.  He was supposed to be the brains with the mind for the numbers but was unfortunately in charge when the shit hit the fan. And it was all a show. Nobody in FF knew what to do.

Whatever happens, FF's constituency is still out there, bitching. Whoever wins it probably wins the big prize.

It's out there but SF have taken it (for now and likely until they get to govern). A staunch Fine Gaeler who left the party, so disgusted was he with Enda Kenny, and moved over to FF told me his reasons, a good few years ago: Fianna Fáil will always give the working man something but Fine Gael have to have their foot on your throat all the time.

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:12:18 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2021, 11:20:33 AM
Tubberman is spot on.
The North has little to do with how most in the 26 Vote.
The 14% new voters SF gained between May 19 and Feb 20 were mainly a dissatisfied 2 fingers to the establishment younger cohort.
FF are still the Builders party going by the Housing Minister's proposed new Legislation.
They may survive as the kingmakers in Coalitions if they can maintain 15 to 20 seats.

Spoken like a true closet FF voter. This is the rare breed I'm telling you about. I dare say Lar is one too. They'll publicly agree on all their ills but when they get into the voting station they'll heat their daddy and grand daddy's whispering to them to tick FF.

The younger generation dont give a shit about this tradition but the FF boys can not bring themselves to face reality and so they talk about losing votes due to protest.

Well Itchy, one more time you are barking up the wrong tree. (And that's not the first time either!)
I voted SF in the last GF.
I taught for years in Finglas and, over the years, many of my past pupils became SF activists and through some of them I got to know Dessie Ellis. Through him I got semi-friendly with MLMD and I generallly trust  her on most things. Buit I am wary of the party's republican past and when I saw the massive turnout for Storey's funeral, with no regard for Covid restrictions, I decided that SF isn't the party for me. The links to the past are still too strong.
With regard to what I have said about SF's showing in the last GF, I ivite you to point out anything I said that is incorrect. Throwing insults all aroud like a windmill in a hurricane is no substitute for cold, hard facts.

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 11, 2021, 10:21:54 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:12:18 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2021, 11:20:33 AM
Tubberman is spot on.
The North has little to do with how most in the 26 Vote.
The 14% new voters SF gained between May 19 and Feb 20 were mainly a dissatisfied 2 fingers to the establishment younger cohort.
FF are still the Builders party going by the Housing Minister's proposed new Legislation.
They may survive as the kingmakers in Coalitions if they can maintain 15 to 20 seats.

Spoken like a true closet FF voter. This is the rare breed I'm telling you about. I dare say Lar is one too. They'll publicly agree on all their ills but when they get into the voting station they'll heat their daddy and grand daddy's whispering to them to tick FF.

The younger generation dont give a shit about this tradition but the FF boys can not bring themselves to face reality and so they talk about losing votes due to protest.

Well Itchy, one more time you are barking up the wrong tree. (And that's not the first time either!)
I voted SF in the last GF.
I taught for years in Finglas and, over the years, many of my past pupils became SF activists and through some of them I got to know Dessie Ellis. Through him I got semi-friendly with MLMD and I generallly trust  her on most things. Buit I am wary of the party's republican past and when I saw the massive turnout for Storey's funeral, with no regard for Covid restrictions, I decided that SF isn't the party for me. The links to the past are still too strong.
With regard to what I have said about SF's showing in the last GF, I ivite you to point out anything I said that is incorrect. Throwing insults all aroud like a windmill in a hurricane is no substitute for cold, hard facts.

If your moral barometer is horrified by people attending a funeral good luck finding someone else to vote for. Homeless crisis, no housing for young people, golfgate it goes on and on.

Let's put the Storey funeral issue to bed.
Michelle O'Neill was under massive pressure from grass roots in Belfast to attend his funeral given his standing in Republican circles, basically, after adams and McGuinness, he was the next man up.
Now, irrespective of his standing, MON should have seen the bigger picture and stayed well clear. Even she wasn't that stupid that wouldn't have known that unionists would have been all over it. This is where her arrogance comes into play. She thought she could go to the funeral, it would get stormy for a few days but ultimately, they would ride it out.
In saying that, did the funeral party itself actually break any of the rules?
Either in the church or at the cemetery?
There have been numerous funerals north, south, England etc, with thousands lining the streets. ( the guard in Mayo and Vera Lynn being two obvious answers). Most funerals throughout the country would break the restriction rules if you counted all the people that line the route.
Psni recommended prosecutions- what more could they have done in the eyes of Arlene and co? Now they're calling for byrnes head? What did they want, 59 cops wading into the funeral...how was that going to end?
DPP get the file and throw it out because there was no chance of a prosecution due to the negotiations pre funeral and the ambiguity re the numbers and the vagueness of the law.
DUP then want Herron from Dpp to step down.
Now they're rioting supposedly because of this and protocol that was completely of their own making and are blaming the 'criminals' Sinn Fein. Complete deadcatting.

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 10:26:14 PM

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 11, 2021, 10:21:54 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:12:18 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2021, 11:20:33 AM
Tubberman is spot on.
The North has little to do with how most in the 26 Vote.
The 14% new voters SF gained between May 19 and Feb 20 were mainly a dissatisfied 2 fingers to the establishment younger cohort.
FF are still the Builders party going by the Housing Minister's proposed new Legislation.
They may survive as the kingmakers in Coalitions if they can maintain 15 to 20 seats.

Spoken like a true closet FF voter. This is the rare breed I'm telling you about. I dare say Lar is one too. They'll publicly agree on all their ills but when they get into the voting station they'll heat their daddy and grand daddy's whispering to them to tick FF.

The younger generation dont give a shit about this tradition but the FF boys can not bring themselves to face reality and so they talk about losing votes due to protest.

Well Itchy, one more time you are barking up the wrong tree. (And that's not the first time either!)
I voted SF in the last GF.
I taught for years in Finglas and, over the years, many of my past pupils became SF activists and through some of them I got to know Dessie Ellis. Through him I got semi-friendly with MLMD and I generallly trust  her on most things. Buit I am wary of the party's republican past and when I saw the massive turnout for Storey's funeral, with no regard for Covid restrictions, I decided that SF isn't the party for me. The links to the past are still too strong.
With regard to what I have said about SF's showing in the last GF, I ivite you to point out anything I said that is incorrect. Throwing insults all aroud like a windmill in a hurricane is no substitute for cold, hard facts.

If your moral barometer is horrified by people attending a funeral good luck finding someone else to vote for. Homeless crisis, no housing for young people, golfgate it goes on and on.

Here's the windmill in action again! ;D
I'm still waiting...give me a single instance where you say I was wrong about SF in the last GF. Can't be simpler than that.
My moral barometer isn't bothered about funerals one way or the other. But this was no ordinary funeral at no ordinary time and damn well you know it.
Just as you can't half turn off the gas or half kick someone up the hole, you can't half observe stated government safety restrictions.

Quote from: Silver hill on April 11, 2021, 10:57:20 PM
Let's put the Storey funeral issue to bed.
Michelle O'Neill was under massive pressure from grass roots in Belfast to attend his funeral given his standing in Republican circles, basically, after adams and McGuinness, he was the next man up.
Now, irrespective of his standing, MON should have seen the bigger picture and stayed well clear. Even she wasn't that stupid that wouldn't have known that unionists would have been all over it. This is where her arrogance comes into play. She thought she could go to the funeral, it would get stormy for a few days but ultimately, they would ride it out.
In saying that, did the funeral party itself actually break any of the rules?
Either in the church or at the cemetery?
There have been numerous funerals north, south, England etc, with thousands lining the streets. ( the guard in Mayo and Vera Lynn being two obvious answers). Most funerals throughout the country would break the restriction rules if you counted all the people that line the route.
Psni recommended prosecutions- what more could they have done in the eyes of Arlene and co? Now they're calling for byrnes head? What did they want, 59 cops wading into the funeral...how was that going to end?
DPP get the file and throw it out because there was no chance of a prosecution due to the negotiations pre funeral and the ambiguity re the numbers and the vagueness of the law.
DUP then want Herron from Dpp to step down.
Now they're rioting supposedly because of this and protocol that was completely of their own making and are blaming the 'criminals' Sinn Fein. Complete deadcatting.

Not so fast!
We are talking about 26 county politics here and the effect it has on public opinion as  the SF party leaders ignored all the safety stuff they had agreed with to attend the funeral of a strong link with their republican past. It incensed many voters here and SF's showing in opinion polls reflected this.
The guard in Mayo and the funeral of Vera Lynn are side issues. A political party  disregarding its own policies when it suits them  is another matter.

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 11, 2021, 11:01:25 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 10:26:14 PM

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 11, 2021, 10:21:54 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:12:18 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2021, 11:20:33 AM
Tubberman is spot on.
The North has little to do with how most in the 26 Vote.
The 14% new voters SF gained between May 19 and Feb 20 were mainly a dissatisfied 2 fingers to the establishment younger cohort.
FF are still the Builders party going by the Housing Minister's proposed new Legislation.
They may survive as the kingmakers in Coalitions if they can maintain 15 to 20 seats.

Spoken like a true closet FF voter. This is the rare breed I'm telling you about. I dare say Lar is one too. They'll publicly agree on all their ills but when they get into the voting station they'll heat their daddy and grand daddy's whispering to them to tick FF.

The younger generation dont give a shit about this tradition but the FF boys can not bring themselves to face reality and so they talk about losing votes due to protest.

Well Itchy, one more time you are barking up the wrong tree. (And that's not the first time either!)
I voted SF in the last GF.
I taught for years in Finglas and, over the years, many of my past pupils became SF activists and through some of them I got to know Dessie Ellis. Through him I got semi-friendly with MLMD and I generallly trust  her on most things. Buit I am wary of the party's republican past and when I saw the massive turnout for Storey's funeral, with no regard for Covid restrictions, I decided that SF isn't the party for me. The links to the past are still too strong.
With regard to what I have said about SF's showing in the last GF, I ivite you to point out anything I said that is incorrect. Throwing insults all aroud like a windmill in a hurricane is no substitute for cold, hard facts.

If your moral barometer is horrified by people attending a funeral good luck finding someone else to vote for. Homeless crisis, no housing for young people, golfgate it goes on and on.

Here's the windmill in action again! ;D
I'm still waiting...give me a single instance where you say I was wrong about SF in the last GF. Can't be simpler than that.
My moral barometer isn't bothered about funerals one way or the other. But this was no ordinary funeral at no ordinary time and damn well you know it.
Just as you can't half turn off the gas or half kick someone up the hole, you can't half observe stated government safety restrictions.

I've no idea what you are asking me to point out to you, what you said about SF in the last GF? What's this about?

As for the funeral, you've just bought a load of propaganda shoved down your throat by the usual suspects. Were you similarly outraged by John Humes funeral for example, or the garda funeral. Its totally up to you who you vote for but voting because of a funeral ranks up there as one of the daftest reasons I've heard yet.

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 11:14:59 PM

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 11, 2021, 11:01:25 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 10:26:14 PM

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 11, 2021, 10:21:54 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:12:18 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2021, 11:20:33 AM
Tubberman is spot on.
The North has little to do with how most in the 26 Vote.
The 14% new voters SF gained between May 19 and Feb 20 were mainly a dissatisfied 2 fingers to the establishment younger cohort.
FF are still the Builders party going by the Housing Minister's proposed new Legislation.
They may survive as the kingmakers in Coalitions if they can maintain 15 to 20 seats.

Spoken like a true closet FF voter. This is the rare breed I'm telling you about. I dare say Lar is one too. They'll publicly agree on all their ills but when they get into the voting station they'll heat their daddy and grand daddy's whispering to them to tick FF.

The younger generation dont give a shit about this tradition but the FF boys can not bring themselves to face reality and so they talk about losing votes due to protest.

Well Itchy, one more time you are barking up the wrong tree. (And that's not the first time either!)
I voted SF in the last GF.
I taught for years in Finglas and, over the years, many of my past pupils became SF activists and through some of them I got to know Dessie Ellis. Through him I got semi-friendly with MLMD and I generallly trust  her on most things. Buit I am wary of the party's republican past and when I saw the massive turnout for Storey's funeral, with no regard for Covid restrictions, I decided that SF isn't the party for me. The links to the past are still too strong.
With regard to what I have said about SF's showing in the last GF, I ivite you to point out anything I said that is incorrect. Throwing insults all aroud like a windmill in a hurricane is no substitute for cold, hard facts.

If your moral barometer is horrified by people attending a funeral good luck finding someone else to vote for. Homeless crisis, no housing for young people, golfgate it goes on and on.

Here's the windmill in action again! ;D
I'm still waiting...give me a single instance where you say I was wrong about SF in the last GF. Can't be simpler than that.
My moral barometer isn't bothered about funerals one way or the other. But this was no ordinary funeral at no ordinary time and damn well you know it.
Just as you can't half turn off the gas or half kick someone up the hole, you can't half observe stated government safety restrictions.

I've no idea what you are asking me to point out to you, what you said about SF in the last GF? What's this about?

As for the funeral, you've just bought a load of propaganda shoved down your throat by the usual suspects. Were you similarly outraged by John Humes funeral for example, or the garda funeral. Its totally up to you who you vote for but voting because of a funeral ranks up there as one of the daftest reasons I've heard yet.

What has John Hume's funeral got to do with alll this? Sf preached one thing about Covid restrictions but on this occasion practiced something else.
This is what I said about SF in my first post:I personally like MLMD but I don't think SF is anywhere near becoming the dominant force in the republic- not yet anyway.
Coming into the last GF, they were lagging well behind in the opinion polls. They did very well because FFG was useless. "
And this is what you had to say to Rossfan:
"Spoken like a true closet FF voter. This is the rare breed I'm telling you about. I dare say Lar is one too. "
I have asked you to prove what you have to say about me. You didn't get it from what I had said about SF's current standing in the opinion polls or anywhere else.

Quote from: Tubberman on April 11, 2021, 05:52:26 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:47:13 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2021, 05:44:12 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:34:03 PM
I voted sinn fein in last number of elections, not ashamed to say it either to anyone who asks. However I find it odd a fella who talks shite day after day  on an Internet forum under a pseudonym would be too shy to admit who they voted for

Last GE I voted Independent 1 and 2.
I left FF, FG and SF blank.
Happy now?

Tell us who the independents were, we can then apply some scrutiny to them.

You have some neck on you!

Yeah, I think he must be from Glangevlin. My missus is and God knows they all are as cranky as f**k around that part! Itchy just might be my father-in-law. ;D

I think people forget how weak FG were 20 years ago. They got hammered in election after election as FF mopped up. I remember 2002 when Baldy Noonan was leader. FG were annihilated .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Irish_general_election#Results

They had no credibility because they had no governing experience. And then 7 years later FF went into meltdown and the tables turned.
The same thing could happen to FF. Politics is always about perception.

FF went from 81 to 31 in 4 years
FG went from 51 to 76 .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Irish_general_election#Results
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Irish_general_election#Results

FG have been in power for 10 years . I don't think this happened previously.

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 11, 2021, 11:36:08 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 11:14:59 PM

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 11, 2021, 11:01:25 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 10:26:14 PM

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 11, 2021, 10:21:54 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:12:18 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2021, 11:20:33 AM
Tubberman is spot on.
The North has little to do with how most in the 26 Vote.
The 14% new voters SF gained between May 19 and Feb 20 were mainly a dissatisfied 2 fingers to the establishment younger cohort.
FF are still the Builders party going by the Housing Minister's proposed new Legislation.
They may survive as the kingmakers in Coalitions if they can maintain 15 to 20 seats.

Spoken like a true closet FF voter. This is the rare breed I'm telling you about. I dare say Lar is one too. They'll publicly agree on all their ills but when they get into the voting station they'll heat their daddy and grand daddy's whispering to them to tick FF.

The younger generation dont give a shit about this tradition but the FF boys can not bring themselves to face reality and so they talk about losing votes due to protest.

Well Itchy, one more time you are barking up the wrong tree. (And that's not the first time either!)
I voted SF in the last GF.
I taught for years in Finglas and, over the years, many of my past pupils became SF activists and through some of them I got to know Dessie Ellis. Through him I got semi-friendly with MLMD and I generallly trust  her on most things. Buit I am wary of the party's republican past and when I saw the massive turnout for Storey's funeral, with no regard for Covid restrictions, I decided that SF isn't the party for me. The links to the past are still too strong.
With regard to what I have said about SF's showing in the last GF, I ivite you to point out anything I said that is incorrect. Throwing insults all aroud like a windmill in a hurricane is no substitute for cold, hard facts.

If your moral barometer is horrified by people attending a funeral good luck finding someone else to vote for. Homeless crisis, no housing for young people, golfgate it goes on and on.

Here's the windmill in action again! ;D
I'm still waiting...give me a single instance where you say I was wrong about SF in the last GF. Can't be simpler than that.
My moral barometer isn't bothered about funerals one way or the other. But this was no ordinary funeral at no ordinary time and damn well you know it.
Just as you can't half turn off the gas or half kick someone up the hole, you can't half observe stated government safety restrictions.

I've no idea what you are asking me to point out to you, what you said about SF in the last GF? What's this about?

As for the funeral, you've just bought a load of propaganda shoved down your throat by the usual suspects. Were you similarly outraged by John Humes funeral for example, or the garda funeral. Its totally up to you who you vote for but voting because of a funeral ranks up there as one of the daftest reasons I've heard yet.

What has John Hume's funeral got to do with alll this? Sf preached one thing about Covid restrictions but on this occasion practiced something else.
This is what I said about SF in my first post:I personally like MLMD but I don't think SF is anywhere near becoming the dominant force in the republic- not yet anyway.
Coming into the last GF, they were lagging well behind in the opinion polls. They did very well because FFG was useless. "
And this is what you had to say to Rossfan:
"Spoken like a true closet FF voter. This is the rare breed I'm telling you about. I dare say Lar is one too. "
I have asked you to prove what you have to say about me. You didn't get it from what I had said about SF's current standing in the opinion polls or anywhere else.

Ok, so GF is General Election? You mean GE? No matter

It was presumptuous of me to assume you had been a former FF voter, I based it on nothing more than your history of posts and your estimated age. No more. If I was incorrect, and you have never voted FF/FG then my apologies. I am not from Glan either.

Regarding funerals, my point was that there have been many embarrassing events on COVID for almost all parties. The government parties have made a hames for more  than anyone else. Our Taoiseach offers zero leadership. We had golf gate. We had the storey funeral then which was blown up by a media who is totally in bed with FFG. So one parties slip up (for want of a better word) was blown up 10 times the level of other parties. I threw hume and garda funerals in to show just how difficult it is to control funerals of people. For whats its worth I think SF were very wrong to support that funeral. However, would I stop voting for them based on just that when all the other parties have been up to just as bad if not worse - No.

Now on Rossfan. He declines to confirm who he voted for. Well one of the independents was Denis Naughton for example. A man of FG stock. A man who was a minister and had to resign over in appropriate meetings with bidders for the national broadband plan. He came in No 2 in the polls in Roscommon/Galway. A bit like Michael Lowry, it doesnt matter to some people the calibre of who is voted in as long as they "look after" you.

It might upset Itchy and other Shinners but in a democracy people can vote in order of preference for any candidate on the ballot paper.
This applies to Roscommon/Galway as well as all other Constituencies.
Also the ballot is secret and we're under no obligation to accede to Itchy/Shinner demands (no less) to say who we gave our votes to.
Itchy getting very "Sidish" in his generalisations.

Quote from: Rossfan on April 12, 2021, 09:57:28 AM
It might upset Itchy and other Shinners but in a democracy people can vote in order of preference for any candidate on the ballot paper.
This applies to Roscommon/Galway as well as all other Constituencies.
Also the ballot is secret and we're under no obligation to accede to Itchy/Shinner demands (no less) to say who we gave our votes to.
Itchy getting very "Sidish" in his generalisations.

Thats all true Rossfan, I just think you are a bit of a coward not telling us. It doesnt upset me in the least, I think our democracy is one of the best their is.  Its not like I know who you are or anything. You go to fair lengths criticising other parties and posters and I suppose one way of preventing anyone shining a light on your own electoral choices is to keep them a secret. But like you say, its up to you if you want to vote No1 for an ex FG corrupt former minister and No2 for a fella who has one interest in politics and that is protecting Turf cutting.

Firstly I haven't read all of this thread but a few very general points as a nosey nordie.

FF come across rightly or wrongly as a fly boy party. Their TDs must be 90% male. A lot of their Politicians appear to want to be Politicians for the trappings and standing that goes with it without actually wanting to do any work. That doesn't work nowadays and it is one of the key reasons that their voter base is going to SF. SF know how to be active and be seen in the community.

They seem to be lacking real talent. Donnelly, Foley and Darragh O'Brien just don't seem up to it. Stephen Donnelly is a car crash every time he opens his mouth.

The youth in Ireland would appear to see Housing as one of the key issues in the South, yet this government stopped construction? If they are serious, like really serious about effecting real change to young peoples lives then surely this is an area they make and exception for? That just something simple that demonstrates you're on the side of the people.

SF will win a landslide next time out and who could blame people for voting for them? FF and FG have been terrible at managing certain aspects of the State. Especially housing.

FF are in real bother. If SF can drop the "Up the RA" angle and become a bit more palatable then 55 - 65 seats, maybe even more, is highly likely.

Quote from: trailer on April 12, 2021, 12:06:17 PM
Firstly I haven't read all of this thread but a few very general points as a nosey nordie.

FF come across rightly or wrongly as a fly boy party. Their TDs must be 90% male. A lot of their Politicians appear to want to be Politicians for the trappings and standing that goes with it without actually wanting to do any work. That doesn't work nowadays and it is one of the key reasons that their voter base is going to SF. SF know how to be active and be seen in the community.

They seem to be lacking real talent. Donnelly, Foley and Darragh O'Brien just don't seem up to it. Stephen Donnelly is a car crash every time he opens his mouth.

The youth in Ireland would appear to see Housing as one of the key issues in the South, yet this government stopped construction? If they are serious, like really serious about effecting real change to young peoples lives then surely this is an area they make and exception for? That just something simple that demonstrates you're on the side of the people.

SF will win a landslide next time out and who could blame people for voting for them? FF and FG have been terrible at managing certain aspects of the State. Especially housing.

FF are in real bother. If SF can drop the "Up the RA" angle and become a bit more palatable then 55 - 65 seats, maybe even more, is highly likely.

+1
That's a truly excellent post. I'd only quibble with your assessment of SF's prospects at the next GE.
I'm not going by my personal views here, btw, I'm looking at the polls.
SF were taken completely by surprise with the returns of the last GE. As someone else pointed out, one of their successful candidates was on holidays on the day of the election. He, and most of the country, hadn't seen this coming. The hard fact is that  SF did extremely well by default- not on the merits of their policies.
At best, the consensus was that they'd tail in behind FF, FG in that order and a bit of a gap behind the big two.
That is going by polls and the views of political correspondents.
The Bobby Storey episode seems to have done them serious damage- this may only be short term btw. They had been trying to impress on the electorate that they had become a fully constitutional party that had severed its connections with its paramilitary roots. Then along came Bobby Storey and the party reverted to type. Again this isn't just my opinion, the polls reflected this.
How successful will they be at the next CE?
Again, it's hard to predict as we have no way of knowing what's going to happen between the present and the election. However, the party is running neck and neck with FG in current polls and have been so for sometime. (Both are around 32%.)
If that holds true going into the next GE, you would have to fancy FG finishing well ahead.
Why? Because of our Single Transferable Vote system.
SF isn't transfer friendly - a lot of their votes are "plumpers," People who plump for SF are not inclined to give their lower preference votes to any other candidates - and the same is true in reverse.  Unless SF gets a very high % of first and second preferences, they won't pick up enough third and lower preferences to stay in the race. The odds are that if a candidate is elected without reaching the quota, it won't be a SF candidate.
Another big issue is that FG and FF have well established party electoral systems in every constituency in the land. SF is still building a party structure in all electoral areas. It will be a case of waiting and seeing but going by the results of the last GE, I wouldn't bet the family silver on SF being the biggest party in the republic next time out.

When was the last transformational Government that actually changed things positively for ordinary people? Lemass or the 50s one that Noel Brown was part of?
SF would be very unlikely to change things enough. They would not campaign on a mandate to purge the Dept of Finance. Labour always went into Government promising a new wayof doing things and always got horsed out of it by the Department of Finance.

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 12, 2021, 12:55:10 PM

Quote from: trailer on April 12, 2021, 12:06:17 PM
Firstly I haven't read all of this thread but a few very general points as a nosey nordie.

FF come across rightly or wrongly as a fly boy party. Their TDs must be 90% male. A lot of their Politicians appear to want to be Politicians for the trappings and standing that goes with it without actually wanting to do any work. That doesn't work nowadays and it is one of the key reasons that their voter base is going to SF. SF know how to be active and be seen in the community.

They seem to be lacking real talent. Donnelly, Foley and Darragh O'Brien just don't seem up to it. Stephen Donnelly is a car crash every time he opens his mouth.

The youth in Ireland would appear to see Housing as one of the key issues in the South, yet this government stopped construction? If they are serious, like really serious about effecting real change to young peoples lives then surely this is an area they make and exception for? That just something simple that demonstrates you're on the side of the people.

SF will win a landslide next time out and who could blame people for voting for them? FF and FG have been terrible at managing certain aspects of the State. Especially housing.

FF are in real bother. If SF can drop the "Up the RA" angle and become a bit more palatable then 55 - 65 seats, maybe even more, is highly likely.

+1
That's a truly excellent post. I'd only quibble with your assessment of SF's prospects at the next GE.
I'm not going by my personal views here, btw, I'm looking at the polls.
SF were taken completely by surprise with the returns of the last GE. As someone else pointed out, one of their successful candidates was on holidays on the day of the election. He, and most of the country, hadn't seen this coming. The hard fact is that  SF did extremely well by default- not on the merits of their policies.
At best, the consensus was that they'd tail in behind FF, FG in that order and a bit of a gap behind the big two.
That is going by polls and the views of political correspondents.
The Bobby Storey episode seems to have done them serious damage- this may only be short term btw. They had been trying to impress on the electorate that they had become a fully constitutional party that had severed its connections with its paramilitary roots. Then along came Bobby Storey and the party reverted to type. Again this isn't just my opinion, the polls reflected this.
How successful will they be at the next CE?
Again, it's hard to predict as we have no way of knowing what's going to happen between the present and the election. However, the party is running neck and neck with FG in current polls and have been so for sometime. (Both are around 32%.)
If that holds true going into the next GE, you would have to fancy FG finishing well ahead.
Why? Because of our Single Transferable Vote system.
SF isn't transfer friendly - a lot of their votes are "plumpers," People who plump for SF are not inclined to give their lower preference votes to any other candidates - and the same is true in reverse.  Unless SF gets a very high % of first and second preferences, they won't pick up enough third and lower preferences to stay in the race. The odds are that if a candidate is elected without reaching the quota, it won't be a SF candidate.
Another big issue is that FG and FF have well established party electoral systems in every constituency in the land. SF is still building a party structure in all electoral areas. It will be a case of waiting and seeing but going by the results of the last GE, I wouldn't bet the family silver on SF being the biggest party in the republic next time out.

I think you said it clearer Lar, they aren't transfer friendly and that is what is holding them back with certain sections of the electorate. I do think a lot of people voted for them last time not because they were SF but because they weren't FF or FG.

With regards to FF and their party election systems, has it fallen into decline or is the party still strong on the ground in mobilising help?

Quote from: seafoid on April 12, 2021, 01:02:55 PM
When was the last transformational Government that actually changed things positively for ordinary people? Lemass or the 50s one that Noel Brown was part of?
SF would be very unlikely to change things enough. They would not campaign on a mandate to purge the Dept of Finance. Labour always went into Government promising a new wayof doing things and always got horsed out of it by the Department of Finance.

I get your point and listen I am no SF fanboy but I can see why young people do and will vote for them. If you're trying to get started in life you need a house you own so you can get married, start a family. Everything is on hold until you are safe in a house. You can't start a family if you're living with your Mother and Father or the in laws. Even renting with the threat of being fucked out at a moments notice isn't a solution. It is a problem that's getting worse not better. It's a national scandal. Are SF the answer? Probably not, but the electorate will want to find out for themselves.

But if you compare where we are as a country to where we were in the 40s or 50s, it's absolute proof that the economic policies of FF and FG have been very successful.

Of course they haven't got everything right, mistakes have been made, we've had the crash, some odious individuals have been involved in both parties, but overall it's the case that Ireland is now one of the best places in the world to live. That certainly wasn't the case in the 50s! There were certainly no handouts back then, everything you got was based on hard work.

Now we all have our jobs, our cars, our XBoxes, our Netflix subs, our annual holidays abroad. All our children have the opportunity to build great lives for themselves.

There seems to be a begrudgery that not everyone gets wealthy at the same rate. I might be far better off than my parents who grew up in the 50s, but some people have miles more than me, so I deserve more.

It's easy to remember and list the mistakes they've made, but we also shouldn't forget the litany of good that FF and FG have brought. It wasn't an accident. But it also shouldn't guarantee a vote if someone else has better plans for the future.

Quote from: trailer on April 12, 2021, 01:09:55 PM

Quote from: seafoid on April 12, 2021, 01:02:55 PM
When was the last transformational Government that actually changed things positively for ordinary people? Lemass or the 50s one that Noel Brown was part of?
SF would be very unlikely to change things enough. They would not campaign on a mandate to purge the Dept of Finance. Labour always went into Government promising a new wayof doing things and always got horsed out of it by the Department of Finance.

I get your point and listen I am no SF fanboy but I can see why young people do and will vote for them. If you're trying to get started in life you need a house you own so you can get married, start a family. Everything is on hold until you are safe in a house. You can't start a family if you're living with your Mother and Father or the in laws. Even renting with the threat of being fucked out at a moments notice isn't a solution. It is a problem that's getting worse not better. It's a national scandal. Are SF the answer? Probably not, but the electorate will want to find out for themselves.

Young people wouldn't be enough for a majority. House prices suit older voters. It's very messy

Quote from: trailer on April 12, 2021, 01:09:55 PM

Quote from: seafoid on April 12, 2021, 01:02:55 PM
When was the last transformational Government that actually changed things positively for ordinary people? Lemass or the 50s one that Noel Brown was part of?
SF would be very unlikely to change things enough. They would not campaign on a mandate to purge the Dept of Finance. Labour always went into Government promising a new wayof doing things and always got horsed out of it by the Department of Finance.

I get your point and listen I am no SF fanboy but I can see why young people do and will vote for them. If you're trying to get started in life you need a house you own so you can get married, start a family. Everything is on hold until you are safe in a house. You can't start a family if you're living with your Mother and Father or the in laws. Even renting with the threat of being fucked out at a moments notice isn't a solution. It is a problem that's getting worse not better. It's a national scandal. Are SF the answer? Probably not, but the electorate will want to find out for themselves.

Housing is a problem in every successful city. Not easy to afford a house in Paris, NYC, LA, Vancouver, Tokyo, etc. Decentralisation plans should help. There are many places in Ireland where housing is affordable. Covid has shown you don't need to be in your place of work to do your job (for many industries, not all of course), but hopefully it's the start of something.
I know for a fact the IDA strongly encourages new investors to have their new premises outside of Dublin, but that can be a hard sell. I think they'll also be able to use the impact of Covid as a selling point that outside of Dublin can be more efficient.

Quote from: Hound on April 12, 2021, 02:04:42 PM
But if you compare where we are as a country to where we were in the 40s or 50s, it's absolute proof that the economic policies of FF and FG have been very successful.

Of course they haven't got everything right, mistakes have been made, we've had the crash, some odious individuals have been involved in both parties, but overall it's the case that Ireland is now one of the best places in the world to live. That certainly wasn't the case in the 50s! There were certainly no handouts back then, everything you got was based on hard work.

Now we all have our jobs, our cars, our XBoxes, our Netflix subs, our annual holidays abroad. All our children have the opportunity to build great lives for themselves.

There seems to be a begrudgery that not everyone gets wealthy at the same rate. I might be far better off than my parents who grew up in the 50s, but some people have miles more than me, so I deserve more.

It's easy to remember and list the mistakes they've made, but we also shouldn't forget the litany of good that FF and FG have brought. It wasn't an accident. But it also shouldn't guarantee a vote if someone else has better plans for the future.

By and large every country is better now than the 40s or 50s. Look there was certainly a lot of good work done by FF and FG down the years I am not denying that but like you said that doesn't guarantee a vote today. FF are finding that out. FF also lack real talent.
For sure housing is a problem everywhere but a Republic should guarantee it's people housing.

Quote from: trailer on April 12, 2021, 01:05:36 PM

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 12, 2021, 12:55:10 PM

Quote from: trailer on April 12, 2021, 12:06:17 PM
Firstly I haven't read all of this thread but a few very general points as a nosey nordie.

FF come across rightly or wrongly as a fly boy party. Their TDs must be 90% male. A lot of their Politicians appear to want to be Politicians for the trappings and standing that goes with it without actually wanting to do any work. That doesn't work nowadays and it is one of the key reasons that their voter base is going to SF. SF know how to be active and be seen in the community.

They seem to be lacking real talent. Donnelly, Foley and Darragh O'Brien just don't seem up to it. Stephen Donnelly is a car crash every time he opens his mouth.

The youth in Ireland would appear to see Housing as one of the key issues in the South, yet this government stopped construction? If they are serious, like really serious about effecting real change to young peoples lives then surely this is an area they make and exception for? That just something simple that demonstrates you're on the side of the people.

SF will win a landslide next time out and who could blame people for voting for them? FF and FG have been terrible at managing certain aspects of the State. Especially housing.

FF are in real bother. If SF can drop the "Up the RA" angle and become a bit more palatable then 55 - 65 seats, maybe even more, is highly likely.

+1
That's a truly excellent post. I'd only quibble with your assessment of SF's prospects at the next GE.
I'm not going by my personal views here, btw, I'm looking at the polls.
SF were taken completely by surprise with the returns of the last GE. As someone else pointed out, one of their successful candidates was on holidays on the day of the election. He, and most of the country, hadn't seen this coming. The hard fact is that  SF did extremely well by default- not on the merits of their policies.
At best, the consensus was that they'd tail in behind FF, FG in that order and a bit of a gap behind the big two.
That is going by polls and the views of political correspondents.
The Bobby Storey episode seems to have done them serious damage- this may only be short term btw. They had been trying to impress on the electorate that they had become a fully constitutional party that had severed its connections with its paramilitary roots. Then along came Bobby Storey and the party reverted to type. Again this isn't just my opinion, the polls reflected this.
How successful will they be at the next CE?
Again, it's hard to predict as we have no way of knowing what's going to happen between the present and the election. However, the party is running neck and neck with FG in current polls and have been so for sometime. (Both are around 32%.)
If that holds true going into the next GE, you would have to fancy FG finishing well ahead.
Why? Because of our Single Transferable Vote system.
SF isn't transfer friendly - a lot of their votes are "plumpers," People who plump for SF are not inclined to give their lower preference votes to any other candidates - and the same is true in reverse.  Unless SF gets a very high % of first and second preferences, they won't pick up enough third and lower preferences to stay in the race. The odds are that if a candidate is elected without reaching the quota, it won't be a SF candidate.
Another big issue is that FG and FF have well established party electoral systems in every constituency in the land. SF is still building a party structure in all electoral areas. It will be a case of waiting and seeing but going by the results of the last GE, I wouldn't bet the family silver on SF being the biggest party in the republic next time out.

I think you said it clearer Lar, they aren't transfer friendly and that is what is holding them back with certain sections of the electorate. I do think a lot of people voted for them last time not because they were SF but because they weren't FF or FG.

With regards to FF and their party election systems, has it fallen into decline or is the party still strong on the ground in mobilising help?

I think having sound party internal structures are very important. Coming upp tp an election means a party can crank into gear at a moment's notice. Printers will be waiting to lash out posters, handbills and billboards.  Cars will be on  standby for polling day. The constituency will be organised into cumann districts to fine tune activities on the ground. Canvassers will know in advance where they are likely to get votes and where they'll get doors shut in their faces.
All in all, FF and FG will have their campaigning well-tuned and ready to move when an election is called.
On the other hand, old habits may be changing and the probability that voters will invariably vote the way their parents did may not be 100% true any more. Still, the grunt work will be easier for those who are more experienced at campaigning on the hoof.
What Hound says about the achievements of FF and FG in the past is very true but we are discussing current events.  I get the impression that FG are more aware of the need for a new image and a set of policies but only time will tell.

I expect when the FG Taoiseach replaces MM end of 2022 that FF will be hoping sone issue will arise that they can jump ship on and hope to gain votes on it.
Of course they may have to have a leadership contest first.
SF will no doubt appeal to all lefty voters to transfer to them only in the next GE.
Probably the best thing any FF Government did was free secondary education back in the 60s.
Also getting away from the £sterling.

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 12, 2021, 12:55:10 PM

Quote from: trailer on April 12, 2021, 12:06:17 PM
Firstly I haven't read all of this thread but a few very general points as a nosey nordie.

FF come across rightly or wrongly as a fly boy party. Their TDs must be 90% male. A lot of their Politicians appear to want to be Politicians for the trappings and standing that goes with it without actually wanting to do any work. That doesn't work nowadays and it is one of the key reasons that their voter base is going to SF. SF know how to be active and be seen in the community.

They seem to be lacking real talent. Donnelly, Foley and Darragh O'Brien just don't seem up to it. Stephen Donnelly is a car crash every time he opens his mouth.

The youth in Ireland would appear to see Housing as one of the key issues in the South, yet this government stopped construction? If they are serious, like really serious about effecting real change to young peoples lives then surely this is an area they make and exception for? That just something simple that demonstrates you're on the side of the people.

SF will win a landslide next time out and who could blame people for voting for them? FF and FG have been terrible at managing certain aspects of the State. Especially housing.

FF are in real bother. If SF can drop the "Up the RA" angle and become a bit more palatable then 55 - 65 seats, maybe even more, is highly likely.

+1
That's a truly excellent post. I'd only quibble with your assessment of SF's prospects at the next GE.
I'm not going by my personal views here, btw, I'm looking at the polls.
SF were taken completely by surprise with the returns of the last GE. As someone else pointed out, one of their successful candidates was on holidays on the day of the election. He, and most of the country, hadn't seen this coming. The hard fact is that  SF did extremely well by default- not on the merits of their policies.
At best, the consensus was that they'd tail in behind FF, FG in that order and a bit of a gap behind the big two.
That is going by polls and the views of political correspondents.
The Bobby Storey episode seems to have done them serious damage- this may only be short term btw. They had been trying to impress on the electorate that they had become a fully constitutional party that had severed its connections with its paramilitary roots. Then along came Bobby Storey and the party reverted to type. Again this isn't just my opinion, the polls reflected this.
How successful will they be at the next CE?
Again, it's hard to predict as we have no way of knowing what's going to happen between the present and the election. However, the party is running neck and neck with FG in current polls and have been so for sometime. (Both are around 32%.)
If that holds true going into the next GE, you would have to fancy FG finishing well ahead.
Why? Because of our Single Transferable Vote system.
SF isn't transfer friendly - a lot of their votes are "plumpers," People who plump for SF are not inclined to give their lower preference votes to any other candidates - and the same is true in reverse.  Unless SF gets a very high % of first and second preferences, they won't pick up enough third and lower preferences to stay in the race. The odds are that if a candidate is elected without reaching the quota, it won't be a SF candidate.
Another big issue is that FG and FF have well established party electoral systems in every constituency in the land. SF is still building a party structure in all electoral areas. It will be a case of waiting and seeing but going by the results of the last GE, I wouldn't bet the family silver on SF being the biggest party in the republic next time out.

That's well put Lar. Also SF only ran one candidate in each constituency were as FF/FG ran at least 2 so this is one of the main reasons why so many of the SF candidates who were elected did so by topping the poll. Even Mary Lou wasn't confident enough to run a 2nd SF candidate in her own constituency. If they run more candidates they'll split their vote and as Lar pointed out previously thy're not transfer friendly so it will be tough to get 2 candidates elected in alot of constituencies

In 2020 GE SF got 2 quotas or more in
Dublin SC, Cavan/Monaghan*, Louth*, Donegal*, Waterford and Dublin MW*.
They got over 1.5 Quotas in
Dublin SW, Dublin Bay North, Dublin Central, Dublin Fingal and Dublin NW. Wexford and Wicklow.
So if their new vote holds and wasn't a fly by night ala Labour 1992 and 2011 there's a possible 9 extra seats for them next time.
Unless there's another big swing to them hard to see them gaining many more seats after that.

* got 2 seats in those.

Quote from: Rossfan on April 12, 2021, 03:36:11 PM
In 2020 GE SF got 2 quotas or more in
Dublin SC, Cavan/Monaghan*, Louth*, Donegal*, Waterford and Dublin MW*.
They got over 1.5 Quotas in
Dublin SW, Dublin Bay North, Dublin Central, Dublin Fingal and Dublin NW. Wexford and Wicklow.
So if their new vote holds and wasn't a fly by night ala Labour 1992 and 2011 there's a possible 9 extra seats for them next time.
Unless there's another big swing to them hard to see them gaining many more seats after that.

* got 2 seats in those.

They need a wider geograpical spread than the border and BAC

Quote from: dublin7 on April 12, 2021, 03:22:23 PM

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 12, 2021, 12:55:10 PM

Quote from: trailer on April 12, 2021, 12:06:17 PM
Firstly I haven't read all of this thread but a few very general points as a nosey nordie.

FF come across rightly or wrongly as a fly boy party. Their TDs must be 90% male. A lot of their Politicians appear to want to be Politicians for the trappings and standing that goes with it without actually wanting to do any work. That doesn't work nowadays and it is one of the key reasons that their voter base is going to SF. SF know how to be active and be seen in the community.

They seem to be lacking real talent. Donnelly, Foley and Darragh O'Brien just don't seem up to it. Stephen Donnelly is a car crash every time he opens his mouth.

The youth in Ireland would appear to see Housing as one of the key issues in the South, yet this government stopped construction? If they are serious, like really serious about effecting real change to young peoples lives then surely this is an area they make and exception for? That just something simple that demonstrates you're on the side of the people.

SF will win a landslide next time out and who could blame people for voting for them? FF and FG have been terrible at managing certain aspects of the State. Especially housing.

FF are in real bother. If SF can drop the "Up the RA" angle and become a bit more palatable then 55 - 65 seats, maybe even more, is highly likely.

+1
That's a truly excellent post. I'd only quibble with your assessment of SF's prospects at the next GE.
I'm not going by my personal views here, btw, I'm looking at the polls.
SF were taken completely by surprise with the returns of the last GE. As someone else pointed out, one of their successful candidates was on holidays on the day of the election. He, and most of the country, hadn't seen this coming. The hard fact is that  SF did extremely well by default- not on the merits of their policies.
At best, the consensus was that they'd tail in behind FF, FG in that order and a bit of a gap behind the big two.
That is going by polls and the views of political correspondents.
The Bobby Storey episode seems to have done them serious damage- this may only be short term btw. They had been trying to impress on the electorate that they had become a fully constitutional party that had severed its connections with its paramilitary roots. Then along came Bobby Storey and the party reverted to type. Again this isn't just my opinion, the polls reflected this.
How successful will they be at the next CE?
Again, it's hard to predict as we have no way of knowing what's going to happen between the present and the election. However, the party is running neck and neck with FG in current polls and have been so for sometime. (Both are around 32%.)
If that holds true going into the next GE, you would have to fancy FG finishing well ahead.
Why? Because of our Single Transferable Vote system.
SF isn't transfer friendly - a lot of their votes are "plumpers," People who plump for SF are not inclined to give their lower preference votes to any other candidates - and the same is true in reverse.  Unless SF gets a very high % of first and second preferences, they won't pick up enough third and lower preferences to stay in the race. The odds are that if a candidate is elected without reaching the quota, it won't be a SF candidate.
Another big issue is that FG and FF have well established party electoral systems in every constituency in the land. SF is still building a party structure in all electoral areas. It will be a case of waiting and seeing but going by the results of the last GE, I wouldn't bet the family silver on SF being the biggest party in the republic next time out.

That's well put Lar. Also SF only ran one candidate in each constituency were as FF/FG ran at least 2 so this is one of the main reasons why so many of the SF candidates who were elected did so by topping the poll. Even Mary Lou wasn't confident enough to run a 2nd SF candidate in her own constituency. If they run more candidates they'll split their vote and as Lar pointed out previously thy're not transfer friendly so it will be tough to get 2 candidates elected in alot of constituencies

Should SF run two candidates in a constituency, I'd expect the total SF vote to increase. Should one candidate be eliminated, I'd expect the bulk of the SF candidate's transfers would go to the other SF candidate.

Quote from: Main Street on April 12, 2021, 11:17:43 PM

Quote from: dublin7 on April 12, 2021, 03:22:23 PM

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 12, 2021, 12:55:10 PM

Quote from: trailer on April 12, 2021, 12:06:17 PM
Firstly I haven't read all of this thread but a few very general points as a nosey nordie.

FF come across rightly or wrongly as a fly boy party. Their TDs must be 90% male. A lot of their Politicians appear to want to be Politicians for the trappings and standing that goes with it without actually wanting to do any work. That doesn't work nowadays and it is one of the key reasons that their voter base is going to SF. SF know how to be active and be seen in the community.

They seem to be lacking real talent. Donnelly, Foley and Darragh O'Brien just don't seem up to it. Stephen Donnelly is a car crash every time he opens his mouth.

The youth in Ireland would appear to see Housing as one of the key issues in the South, yet this government stopped construction? If they are serious, like really serious about effecting real change to young peoples lives then surely this is an area they make and exception for? That just something simple that demonstrates you're on the side of the people.

SF will win a landslide next time out and who could blame people for voting for them? FF and FG have been terrible at managing certain aspects of the State. Especially housing.

FF are in real bother. If SF can drop the "Up the RA" angle and become a bit more palatable then 55 - 65 seats, maybe even more, is highly likely.

+1
That's a truly excellent post. I'd only quibble with your assessment of SF's prospects at the next GE.
I'm not going by my personal views here, btw, I'm looking at the polls.
SF were taken completely by surprise with the returns of the last GE. As someone else pointed out, one of their successful candidates was on holidays on the day of the election. He, and most of the country, hadn't seen this coming. The hard fact is that  SF did extremely well by default- not on the merits of their policies.
At best, the consensus was that they'd tail in behind FF, FG in that order and a bit of a gap behind the big two.
That is going by polls and the views of political correspondents.
The Bobby Storey episode seems to have done them serious damage- this may only be short term btw. They had been trying to impress on the electorate that they had become a fully constitutional party that had severed its connections with its paramilitary roots. Then along came Bobby Storey and the party reverted to type. Again this isn't just my opinion, the polls reflected this.
How successful will they be at the next CE?
Again, it's hard to predict as we have no way of knowing what's going to happen between the present and the election. However, the party is running neck and neck with FG in current polls and have been so for sometime. (Both are around 32%.)
If that holds true going into the next GE, you would have to fancy FG finishing well ahead.
Why? Because of our Single Transferable Vote system.
SF isn't transfer friendly - a lot of their votes are "plumpers," People who plump for SF are not inclined to give their lower preference votes to any other candidates - and the same is true in reverse.  Unless SF gets a very high % of first and second preferences, they won't pick up enough third and lower preferences to stay in the race. The odds are that if a candidate is elected without reaching the quota, it won't be a SF candidate.
Another big issue is that FG and FF have well established party electoral systems in every constituency in the land. SF is still building a party structure in all electoral areas. It will be a case of waiting and seeing but going by the results of the last GE, I wouldn't bet the family silver on SF being the biggest party in the republic next time out.

That's well put Lar. Also SF only ran one candidate in each constituency were as FF/FG ran at least 2 so this is one of the main reasons why so many of the SF candidates who were elected did so by topping the poll. Even Mary Lou wasn't confident enough to run a 2nd SF candidate in her own constituency. If they run more candidates they'll split their vote and as Lar pointed out previously thy're not transfer friendly so it will be tough to get 2 candidates elected in alot of constituencies

Should SF run two candidates in a constituency, I'd expect the total SF vote to increase. Should one candidate be eliminated, I'd expect the bulk of the SF candidate's transfers would go to the other SF candidate.

When I read all these long posts I cant help but think that they are all based on the assumption that the rules of the game are the same as before. They are not - social media for one is massive now. Another, traditional media which to date has been aggressively biased against SF will soon realise that they are actually committing suicide doing this. What happens to FFG when Claire Byrne and Miriam O Callaghan start being fair and neutral in their interviews???

Quote from: Itchy on April 13, 2021, 08:58:05 AMWhen I read all these long posts I cant help but think that they are all based on the assumption that the rules of the game are the same as before. They are not - social media for one is massive now. Another, traditional media which to date has been aggressively biased against SF will soon realise that they are actually committing suicide doing this. What happens to FFG when Claire Byrne and Miriam O Callaghan start being fair and neutral in their interviews???

There's something you don't have to worry about, the establishment have these people in their back pocket, their A game is the smear campaign and even then its piss poor to average at best

As you say social media is a huge game changer in this day and age and I feel SF have an edge here

O'Callaghan in her haste to sideline fairness and objectivity will do more good for SF than harm, but it is sickening to watch at times, same as that gimp Tubridy

Quote from: Main Street on April 12, 2021, 11:17:43 PM

Quote from: dublin7 on April 12, 2021, 03:22:23 PM

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 12, 2021, 12:55:10 PM

Quote from: trailer on April 12, 2021, 12:06:17 PM
Firstly I haven't read all of this thread but a few very general points as a nosey nordie.

FF come across rightly or wrongly as a fly boy party. Their TDs must be 90% male. A lot of their Politicians appear to want to be Politicians for the trappings and standing that goes with it without actually wanting to do any work. That doesn't work nowadays and it is one of the key reasons that their voter base is going to SF. SF know how to be active and be seen in the community.

They seem to be lacking real talent. Donnelly, Foley and Darragh O'Brien just don't seem up to it. Stephen Donnelly is a car crash every time he opens his mouth.

The youth in Ireland would appear to see Housing as one of the key issues in the South, yet this government stopped construction? If they are serious, like really serious about effecting real change to young peoples lives then surely this is an area they make and exception for? That just something simple that demonstrates you're on the side of the people.

SF will win a landslide next time out and who could blame people for voting for them? FF and FG have been terrible at managing certain aspects of the State. Especially housing.

FF are in real bother. If SF can drop the "Up the RA" angle and become a bit more palatable then 55 - 65 seats, maybe even more, is highly likely.

+1
That's a truly excellent post. I'd only quibble with your assessment of SF's prospects at the next GE.
I'm not going by my personal views here, btw, I'm looking at the polls.
SF were taken completely by surprise with the returns of the last GE. As someone else pointed out, one of their successful candidates was on holidays on the day of the election. He, and most of the country, hadn't seen this coming. The hard fact is that  SF did extremely well by default- not on the merits of their policies.
At best, the consensus was that they'd tail in behind FF, FG in that order and a bit of a gap behind the big two.
That is going by polls and the views of political correspondents.
The Bobby Storey episode seems to have done them serious damage- this may only be short term btw. They had been trying to impress on the electorate that they had become a fully constitutional party that had severed its connections with its paramilitary roots. Then along came Bobby Storey and the party reverted to type. Again this isn't just my opinion, the polls reflected this.
How successful will they be at the next CE?
Again, it's hard to predict as we have no way of knowing what's going to happen between the present and the election. However, the party is running neck and neck with FG in current polls and have been so for sometime. (Both are around 32%.)
If that holds true going into the next GE, you would have to fancy FG finishing well ahead.
Why? Because of our Single Transferable Vote system.
SF isn't transfer friendly - a lot of their votes are "plumpers," People who plump for SF are not inclined to give their lower preference votes to any other candidates - and the same is true in reverse.  Unless SF gets a very high % of first and second preferences, they won't pick up enough third and lower preferences to stay in the race. The odds are that if a candidate is elected without reaching the quota, it won't be a SF candidate.
Another big issue is that FG and FF have well established party electoral systems in every constituency in the land. SF is still building a party structure in all electoral areas. It will be a case of waiting and seeing but going by the results of the last GE, I wouldn't bet the family silver on SF being the biggest party in the republic next time out.

That's well put Lar. Also SF only ran one candidate in each constituency were as FF/FG ran at least 2 so this is one of the main reasons why so many of the SF candidates who were elected did so by topping the poll. Even Mary Lou wasn't confident enough to run a 2nd SF candidate in her own constituency. If they run more candidates they'll split their vote and as Lar pointed out previously thy're not transfer friendly so it will be tough to get 2 candidates elected in alot of constituencies

Should SF run two candidates in a constituency, I'd expect the total SF vote to increase. Should one candidate be eliminated, I'd expect the bulk of the SF candidate's transfers would go to the other SF candidate.

I'd imagine that there are no hard and fast rules here. You can only go by the experience of other parties who have run multiple candidates in constituencies around the country in times past.  It's important to bear in mind that a General Election really means holding 42 (?) mini elections, where the central issues in one  may not be relevant in others eg  upgrading or downgrading local hospitals etc.
Generally, where a party is hoping for two seats, it may think it advisable to field three candidates. In  that case, what you are asking makes sense. One is only there for his/her transfers to the other two. They may need the expected second and third preferences. But in fielding only two candidates for two seats , the permutations and combinations can be unpredictable.
Maybe candidate A and candidate B receive roughly the same vote but both are short of the quota then the danger arises that one will be eliminated.  Bertie Ahern could take three out of five seats in a five seater and did this for several elections running.
Bertie canvassed for votes all over the constituency while the other two were confined to their local area. The other two got relatively small first prefs but Bertie surplus was enough to get both elected.
At his last election, Bertie was in a three seater and had just one running mate, Royston Brady. Brady got well short of 1,000 first prefs but still got elected because of Bertie's surplus.
In other words, where running multiple candidates is involved, astute vote management is needed.
SF won't be as used to this as FG and FF but, on the other hand, they are actively preparing for the next GE and will have their candidates  lined up and have their areas to chase number ones laid out in advance.
Keep in mind that twice the candidates doesn't always mean twice the votes but Mary Lou has the tide with her and has the time to plot her strategies.
The next election will be a very interesting one..

Quote from: tiempo on April 13, 2021, 09:42:12 AM

Quote from: Itchy on April 13, 2021, 08:58:05 AMWhen I read all these long posts I cant help but think that they are all based on the assumption that the rules of the game are the same as before. They are not - social media for one is massive now. Another, traditional media which to date has been aggressively biased against SF will soon realise that they are actually committing suicide doing this. What happens to FFG when Claire Byrne and Miriam O Callaghan start being fair and neutral in their interviews???

There's something you don't have to worry about, the establishment have these people in their back pocket, their A game is the smear campaign and even then its piss poor to average at best

As you say social media is a huge game changer in this day and age and I feel SF have an edge here

O'Callaghan in her haste to sideline fairness and objectivity will do more good for SF than harm, but it is sickening to watch at times, same as that gimp Tubridy

Well it certainly hasnt had the effect they were looking for and instead has damaged these institutions. But when will it dawn on them that the next minister they go with a begging bowl to may be a SF minister?

Quote from: Itchy on April 13, 2021, 10:53:08 AM

Quote from: tiempo on April 13, 2021, 09:42:12 AM

Quote from: Itchy on April 13, 2021, 08:58:05 AMWhen I read all these long posts I cant help but think that they are all based on the assumption that the rules of the game are the same as before. They are not - social media for one is massive now. Another, traditional media which to date has been aggressively biased against SF will soon realise that they are actually committing suicide doing this. What happens to FFG when Claire Byrne and Miriam O Callaghan start being fair and neutral in their interviews???

There's something you don't have to worry about, the establishment have these people in their back pocket, their A game is the smear campaign and even then its piss poor to average at best

As you say social media is a huge game changer in this day and age and I feel SF have an edge here

O'Callaghan in her haste to sideline fairness and objectivity will do more good for SF than harm, but it is sickening to watch at times, same as that gimp Tubridy

Well it certainly hasnt had the effect they were looking for and instead has damaged these institutions. But when will it dawn on them that the next minister they go with a begging bowl to may be a SF minister?

That will be brilliant

Quote from: Itchy on April 13, 2021, 10:53:08 AM

Quote from: tiempo on April 13, 2021, 09:42:12 AM

Quote from: Itchy on April 13, 2021, 08:58:05 AMWhen I read all these long posts I cant help but think that they are all based on the assumption that the rules of the game are the same as before. They are not - social media for one is massive now. Another, traditional media which to date has been aggressively biased against SF will soon realise that they are actually committing suicide doing this. What happens to FFG when Claire Byrne and Miriam O Callaghan start being fair and neutral in their interviews???

There's something you don't have to worry about, the establishment have these people in their back pocket, their A game is the smear campaign and even then its piss poor to average at best

As you say social media is a huge game changer in this day and age and I feel SF have an edge here

O'Callaghan in her haste to sideline fairness and objectivity will do more good for SF than harm, but it is sickening to watch at times, same as that gimp Tubridy

Well it certainly hasnt had the effect they were looking for and instead has damaged these institutions. But when will it dawn on them that the next minister they go with a begging bowl to may be a SF minister?

The establishment MO'C etc are part of will never accept SF, they'll fight them tooth and nail to the next election and if SF do enter government they'll traduce them at any opportunity, taking their own credibility with them as a result

If SF get in hopefully they can begin to dismantle the cabal that exists within the establishment protecting FFG, not that there isn't a mountain of other more important work to be done, but they'll just have to multi task

I wonder is this why Itchy was demanding I tell him who I voted for? ;D

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/sinn-fein-under-pressure-to-reveal-location-of-its-secret-voter-database-40306631.html

Quote from: tiempo on April 13, 2021, 11:21:52 AM

Quote from: Itchy on April 13, 2021, 10:53:08 AM

Quote from: tiempo on April 13, 2021, 09:42:12 AM

Quote from: Itchy on April 13, 2021, 08:58:05 AMWhen I read all these long posts I cant help but think that they are all based on the assumption that the rules of the game are the same as before. They are not - social media for one is massive now. Another, traditional media which to date has been aggressively biased against SF will soon realise that they are actually committing suicide doing this. What happens to FFG when Claire Byrne and Miriam O Callaghan start being fair and neutral in their interviews???

There's something you don't have to worry about, the establishment have these people in their back pocket, their A game is the smear campaign and even then its piss poor to average at best

As you say social media is a huge game changer in this day and age and I feel SF have an edge here

O'Callaghan in her haste to sideline fairness and objectivity will do more good for SF than harm, but it is sickening to watch at times, same as that gimp Tubridy

Well it certainly hasnt had the effect they were looking for and instead has damaged these institutions. But when will it dawn on them that the next minister they go with a begging bowl to may be a SF minister?

The establishment MO'C etc are part of will never accept SF, they'll fight them tooth and nail to the next election and if SF do enter government they'll traduce them at any opportunity, taking their own credibility with them as a result

If SF get in hopefully they can begin to dismantle the cabal that exists within the establishment protecting FFG, not that there isn't a mountain of other more important work to be done, but they'll just have to multi task

This is classic SF voter diatribe. The establishment is working against us. We're outsiders shaking things up. Drain the Swamp. The Cabal. What a load of shite. What about in the 6 counties were SF ARE THE ESTABLISHMENT and have been for the last 10 years. Give me a f**king break.

Everyone pull up a chair, wait till you see the shite posted in response... here we go....

Quote from: Rossfan on April 13, 2021, 11:28:08 AM
I wonder is this why Itchy was demanding I tell him who I voted for? ;D

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/sinn-fein-under-pressure-to-reveal-location-of-its-secret-voter-database-40306631.html

I didnt demand anything. You are just too ball-less to say incase we laugh at you voting for a corrupt ex FG minister or a man who got elected to allow a few bog men in Roscommon to cut turf.

BTW - you could stick up two new articles every day from the Indo criticising SF, last week it was some nonsense about their twitter admin living abroad which this week is an important article on plans to make it illegal to have your parties twitter posts from abroad.

Quote from: Rossfan on April 13, 2021, 11:28:08 AM
I wonder is this why Itchy was demanding I tell him who I voted for? ;D

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/sinn-fein-under-pressure-to-reveal-location-of-its-secret-voter-database-40306631.html

So sssentially, FFG are outraged that SF have an electronic database of voters? I enjoyed the bit in the article which notes that all parties get an electronic copy of eh....the electoral register of voters.

It's like the Indo have reached peak desperation.

SF means ourselves alone.
FF and FG are globalists.

What sort of economic policy would SF run?

Quote from: trailer on April 13, 2021, 11:33:39 AM

Quote from: tiempo on April 13, 2021, 11:21:52 AM

Quote from: Itchy on April 13, 2021, 10:53:08 AM

Quote from: tiempo on April 13, 2021, 09:42:12 AM

Quote from: Itchy on April 13, 2021, 08:58:05 AMWhen I read all these long posts I cant help but think that they are all based on the assumption that the rules of the game are the same as before. They are not - social media for one is massive now. Another, traditional media which to date has been aggressively biased against SF will soon realise that they are actually committing suicide doing this. What happens to FFG when Claire Byrne and Miriam O Callaghan start being fair and neutral in their interviews???

There's something you don't have to worry about, the establishment have these people in their back pocket, their A game is the smear campaign and even then its piss poor to average at best

As you say social media is a huge game changer in this day and age and I feel SF have an edge here

O'Callaghan in her haste to sideline fairness and objectivity will do more good for SF than harm, but it is sickening to watch at times, same as that gimp Tubridy

Well it certainly hasnt had the effect they were looking for and instead has damaged these institutions. But when will it dawn on them that the next minister they go with a begging bowl to may be a SF minister?

The establishment MO'C etc are part of will never accept SF, they'll fight them tooth and nail to the next election and if SF do enter government they'll traduce them at any opportunity, taking their own credibility with them as a result

If SF get in hopefully they can begin to dismantle the cabal that exists within the establishment protecting FFG, not that there isn't a mountain of other more important work to be done, but they'll just have to multi task

This is classic SF voter diatribe. The establishment is working against us. We're outsiders shaking things up. Drain the Swamp. The Cabal. What a load of shite. What about in the 6 counties were SF ARE THE ESTABLISHMENT and have been for the last 10 years. Give me a f**king break.

Everyone pull up a chair, wait till you see the shite posted in response... here we go....

Serious case of death grip you have there trailer

SF in the north are practicing antiestablishmentarianism, hadn't you noticed the century of bigotry dished out to the CNR population?

Auck yeno the cabal well, the ones that are adamant they wont enter government with SF but expect SF to enter government in the north with the DUP

The days of eating ones cake and still having ones cake are dwindling, the direction of travel is set

Travel to where exactly?
Looking at current opinion polls which would give around a 50/50/20 breakdown in seats to FG/SF/FF and 40 to the rest.
How many of the 40 would be left leaning or SF friendly ?
Would Labour/SDP be willing to be the very Junior partners in a SF led Coalition?
They'd be more likely to sit back and let them form a Coalition with FF/Greens and  let SF be exposed.

Quote from: Rossfan on April 13, 2021, 01:03:23 PM
Travel to where exactly?
Looking at current opinion polls which would give around a 50/50/20 breakdown in seats to FG/SF/FF and 40 to the rest.
How many of the 40 would be left leaning or SF friendly ?
Would Labour/SDP be willing to be the very Junior partners in a SF led Coalition?
They'd be more likely to sit back and let them form a Coalition with FF/Greens and  let SF be exposed.

Exposed for what exactly?

Quote from: seafoid on April 13, 2021, 12:37:51 PM

What sort of economic policy would SF run?

You won't get an answer to that from a SF supporter.
Someone else is going to pay for it, so it really doesn't matter !

I look forward to seeing what they actually do. They'll be the biggest part after the next election, absent a complete collapse.
FF and FG should of course not go into coalition with them due to their diametrically opposed policies and strategies. So they'll need to get the parties of the left to come together, if they don't get the overall majority. That'll be interesting.

Quote from: tiempo on April 13, 2021, 12:51:32 PM

Quote from: trailer on April 13, 2021, 11:33:39 AM

Quote from: tiempo on April 13, 2021, 11:21:52 AM

Quote from: Itchy on April 13, 2021, 10:53:08 AM

Quote from: tiempo on April 13, 2021, 09:42:12 AM

Quote from: Itchy on April 13, 2021, 08:58:05 AMWhen I read all these long posts I cant help but think that they are all based on the assumption that the rules of the game are the same as before. They are not - social media for one is massive now. Another, traditional media which to date has been aggressively biased against SF will soon realise that they are actually committing suicide doing this. What happens to FFG when Claire Byrne and Miriam O Callaghan start being fair and neutral in their interviews???

There's something you don't have to worry about, the establishment have these people in their back pocket, their A game is the smear campaign and even then its piss poor to average at best

As you say social media is a huge game changer in this day and age and I feel SF have an edge here

O'Callaghan in her haste to sideline fairness and objectivity will do more good for SF than harm, but it is sickening to watch at times, same as that gimp Tubridy

Well it certainly hasnt had the effect they were looking for and instead has damaged these institutions. But when will it dawn on them that the next minister they go with a begging bowl to may be a SF minister?

The establishment MO'C etc are part of will never accept SF, they'll fight them tooth and nail to the next election and if SF do enter government they'll traduce them at any opportunity, taking their own credibility with them as a result

If SF get in hopefully they can begin to dismantle the cabal that exists within the establishment protecting FFG, not that there isn't a mountain of other more important work to be done, but they'll just have to multi task

This is classic SF voter diatribe. The establishment is working against us. We're outsiders shaking things up. Drain the Swamp. The Cabal. What a load of shite. What about in the 6 counties were SF ARE THE ESTABLISHMENT and have been for the last 10 years. Give me a f**king break.

Everyone pull up a chair, wait till you see the shite posted in response... here we go....

Serious case of death grip you have there trailer

SF in the north are practicing antiestablishmentarianism, hadn't you noticed the century of bigotry dished out to the CNR population?

Auck yeno the cabal well, the ones that are adamant they wont enter government with SF but expect SF to enter government in the north with the DUP

The days of eating ones cake and still having ones cake are dwindling, the direction of travel is set

I've read some shite in my time but this is right up there.

Quote from: Rossfan on April 13, 2021, 01:03:23 PM
Travel to where exactly?

SF in government in the south

Quote from: Hound on April 13, 2021, 01:25:48 PM

Quote from: seafoid on April 13, 2021, 12:37:51 PM

What sort of economic policy would SF run?

You won't get an answer to that from a SF supporter.
Someone else is going to pay for it, so it really doesn't matter !

I look forward to seeing what they actually do. They'll be the biggest part after the next election, absent a complete collapse.
FF and FG should of course not go into coalition with them due to their diametrically opposed policies and strategies. So they'll need to get the parties of the left to come together, if they don't get the overall majority. That'll be interesting.

Any economists out there like to describe the current FFG economic policy?

Quote from: trailer on April 13, 2021, 01:35:08 PMI've read some shite in my time but this is right up there.

Just for you  ;)

Quote from: Snapchap on April 13, 2021, 12:35:51 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 13, 2021, 11:28:08 AM
I wonder is this why Itchy was demanding I tell him who I voted for? ;D

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/sinn-fein-under-pressure-to-reveal-location-of-its-secret-voter-database-40306631.html

So sssentially, FFG are outraged that SF have an electronic database of voters? I enjoyed the bit in the article which notes that all parties get an electronic copy of eh....the electoral register of voters.

It's like the Indo have reached peak desperation.

The register is available online, and just consists of a name and area where you live. I think the issue would be if SF is storing personal information about voters on top of just the name. People get annoyed with Big Tech doing that, and advertising tracking companies, and it likely violates GDPR. So it should raise eyebrows if a political party is doing that.

Now that is not to say it wasn't done in a different way in the past. Those two lads (the FF lad and the FG) who'd be observing the voting process in the voting booth like hawks would have their little bookeen and would be marking off who voted. They'd know in their head, what way everyone votes, and if an old FF voter had not made it in yet, the car would be sent out to cart them in to vote.

Quote from: weareros on April 13, 2021, 02:00:09 PM

Quote from: Snapchap on April 13, 2021, 12:35:51 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 13, 2021, 11:28:08 AM
I wonder is this why Itchy was demanding I tell him who I voted for? ;D

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/sinn-fein-under-pressure-to-reveal-location-of-its-secret-voter-database-40306631.html

So sssentially, FFG are outraged that SF have an electronic database of voters? I enjoyed the bit in the article which notes that all parties get an electronic copy of eh....the electoral register of voters.

It's like the Indo have reached peak desperation.

The register is available online, and just consists of a name and area where you live. I think the issue would be if SF is storing personal information about voters on top of just the name. People get annoyed with Big Tech doing that, and advertising tracking companies, and it likely violates GDPR. So it should raise eyebrows if a political party is doing that.

The Data Protection commissioner gave a bollocking to several TDs in the past, I don't see why SF should be any different, and holding the database outside of places respecting GDPR would be definite problem.

It might be interesting to ask SF for a copy of all information held about you.

Quote from: tiempo on April 13, 2021, 11:21:52 AM

The establishment MO'C etc are part of will never accept SF, they'll fight them tooth and nail to the next election and if SF do enter government they'll traduce them at any opportunity, taking their own credibility with them as a result

If SF get in hopefully they can begin to dismantle the cabal that exists within the establishment protecting FFG, not that there isn't a mountain of other more important work to be done, but they'll just have to multi task

Isn't this  'cabal' called the electorate?

Quote from: mouview on April 13, 2021, 04:39:36 PM

Quote from: tiempo on April 13, 2021, 11:21:52 AM

The establishment MO'C etc are part of will never accept SF, they'll fight them tooth and nail to the next election and if SF do enter government they'll traduce them at any opportunity, taking their own credibility with them as a result

If SF get in hopefully they can begin to dismantle the cabal that exists within the establishment protecting FFG, not that there isn't a mountain of other more important work to be done, but they'll just have to multi task

Isn't this  'cabal' called the electorate?

Touché, except no, the plain people of Ireland aren't the establishment, the establishment serve their own self interest, not that of the electorate

Quote from: armaghniac on April 13, 2021, 04:27:39 PM

Quote from: weareros on April 13, 2021, 02:00:09 PM

Quote from: Snapchap on April 13, 2021, 12:35:51 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 13, 2021, 11:28:08 AM
I wonder is this why Itchy was demanding I tell him who I voted for? ;D

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/sinn-fein-under-pressure-to-reveal-location-of-its-secret-voter-database-40306631.html

So sssentially, FFG are outraged that SF have an electronic database of voters? I enjoyed the bit in the article which notes that all parties get an electronic copy of eh....the electoral register of voters.

It's like the Indo have reached peak desperation.

The register is available online, and just consists of a name and area where you live. I think the issue would be if SF is storing personal information about voters on top of just the name. People get annoyed with Big Tech doing that, and advertising tracking companies, and it likely violates GDPR. So it should raise eyebrows if a political party is doing that.

The Data Protection commissioner gave a bollocking to several TDs in the past, I don't see why SF should be any different, and holding the database outside of places respecting GDPR would be definite problem.

It might be interesting to ask SF for a copy of all information held about you.

Why do people quote GDPR as if it is the answer to anything personal data related. Business and organisations are allowed to store personal information which has been captured with the knowledge of the person for its intended uses is legitimate and does not break GDPR rules. You can argue away to your blue in the face about what is a legitimate need for SF to hold certain data but only people in that or any organisation know what the need is for it. Business and organisations also have a legal obligation to protect that data such as ensuring only people who need it have access to it, that the data is stored in a safe and secure manner or that people are not carelessly leaving print outs etc of personal information lying around the place in offices or elsewhere and so forth.

Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 14, 2021, 01:02:41 PM

Quote from: armaghniac on April 13, 2021, 04:27:39 PM

Quote from: weareros on April 13, 2021, 02:00:09 PM

Quote from: Snapchap on April 13, 2021, 12:35:51 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 13, 2021, 11:28:08 AM
I wonder is this why Itchy was demanding I tell him who I voted for? ;D

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/sinn-fein-under-pressure-to-reveal-location-of-its-secret-voter-database-40306631.html

So sssentially, FFG are outraged that SF have an electronic database of voters? I enjoyed the bit in the article which notes that all parties get an electronic copy of eh....the electoral register of voters.

It's like the Indo have reached peak desperation.

The register is available online, and just consists of a name and area where you live. I think the issue would be if SF is storing personal information about voters on top of just the name. People get annoyed with Big Tech doing that, and advertising tracking companies, and it likely violates GDPR. So it should raise eyebrows if a political party is doing that.

The Data Protection commissioner gave a bollocking to several TDs in the past, I don't see why SF should be any different, and holding the database outside of places respecting GDPR would be definite problem.

It might be interesting to ask SF for a copy of all information held about you.

Why do people quote GDPR as if it is the answer to anything personal data related. Business and organisations are allowed to store personal information which has been captured with the knowledge of the person for its intended uses is legitimate and does not break GDPR rules. You can argue away to your blue in the face about what is a legitimate need for SF to hold certain data but only people in that or any organisation know what the need is for it. Business and organisations also have a legal obligation to protect that data such as ensuring only people who need it have access to it, that the data is stored in a safe and secure manner or that people are not carelessly leaving print outs etc of personal information lying around the place in offices or elsewhere and so forth.

You are forgetting an important formula that is used in the Indo offices which makes your argument void

S + F = BAD

Quote from: tiempo on April 13, 2021, 01:53:27 PM

Quote from: Hound on April 13, 2021, 01:25:48 PM

Quote from: seafoid on April 13, 2021, 12:37:51 PM

What sort of economic policy would SF run?

You won't get an answer to that from a SF supporter.
Someone else is going to pay for it, so it really doesn't matter !

I look forward to seeing what they actually do. They'll be the biggest part after the next election, absent a complete collapse.
FF and FG should of course not go into coalition with them due to their diametrically opposed policies and strategies. So they'll need to get the parties of the left to come together, if they don't get the overall majority. That'll be interesting.

Any economists out there like to describe the current FFG economic policy?

Well for example, today's news on economics includes:
- projected growth of 4.5% in the economy this year
- despite the damage wrought by Covid, the economy has been resilient and tax income has held up better than expected
- Modified Domestic Demand, which focuses on the domestic economy, is forecast to grow by 2.5% in 2021 and 7.5% next year

Quote from: Itchy on April 14, 2021, 01:05:26 PM

Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 14, 2021, 01:02:41 PM

Quote from: armaghniac on April 13, 2021, 04:27:39 PM

Quote from: weareros on April 13, 2021, 02:00:09 PM

Quote from: Snapchap on April 13, 2021, 12:35:51 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 13, 2021, 11:28:08 AM
I wonder is this why Itchy was demanding I tell him who I voted for? ;D

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/sinn-fein-under-pressure-to-reveal-location-of-its-secret-voter-database-40306631.html

So sssentially, FFG are outraged that SF have an electronic database of voters? I enjoyed the bit in the article which notes that all parties get an electronic copy of eh....the electoral register of voters.

It's like the Indo have reached peak desperation.

The register is available online, and just consists of a name and area where you live. I think the issue would be if SF is storing personal information about voters on top of just the name. People get annoyed with Big Tech doing that, and advertising tracking companies, and it likely violates GDPR. So it should raise eyebrows if a political party is doing that.

The Data Protection commissioner gave a bollocking to several TDs in the past, I don't see why SF should be any different, and holding the database outside of places respecting GDPR would be definite problem.

It might be interesting to ask SF for a copy of all information held about you.

Why do people quote GDPR as if it is the answer to anything personal data related. Business and organisations are allowed to store personal information which has been captured with the knowledge of the person for its intended uses is legitimate and does not break GDPR rules. You can argue away to your blue in the face about what is a legitimate need for SF to hold certain data but only people in that or any organisation know what the need is for it. Business and organisations also have a legal obligation to protect that data such as ensuring only people who need it have access to it, that the data is stored in a safe and secure manner or that people are not carelessly leaving print outs etc of personal information lying around the place in offices or elsewhere and so forth.

You are forgetting an important formula that is used in the Indo offices which makes your argument void

S + F = BAD

I wasn't really making any argument as there is nothing to argue in terms of GDPR. I was just pointing out that people are quick to quote GDPR without actually understanding what it means.

Quote from: Hound on April 14, 2021, 02:02:30 PM

Quote from: tiempo on April 13, 2021, 01:53:27 PM

Quote from: Hound on April 13, 2021, 01:25:48 PM

Quote from: seafoid on April 13, 2021, 12:37:51 PM

What sort of economic policy would SF run?

You won't get an answer to that from a SF supporter.
Someone else is going to pay for it, so it really doesn't matter !

I look forward to seeing what they actually do. They'll be the biggest part after the next election, absent a complete collapse.
FF and FG should of course not go into coalition with them due to their diametrically opposed policies and strategies. So they'll need to get the parties of the left to come together, if they don't get the overall majority. That'll be interesting.

Any economists out there like to describe the current FFG economic policy?

Well for example, today's news on economics includes:
- projected growth of 4.5% in the economy this year
- despite the damage wrought by Covid, the economy has been resilient and tax income has held up better than expected
- Modified Domestic Demand, which focuses on the domestic economy, is forecast to grow by 2.5% in 2021 and 7.5% next year

Wheres it all going?

Quote from: Itchy on April 14, 2021, 04:36:15 PM

Quote from: Hound on April 14, 2021, 02:02:30 PM

Quote from: tiempo on April 13, 2021, 01:53:27 PM

Quote from: Hound on April 13, 2021, 01:25:48 PM

Quote from: seafoid on April 13, 2021, 12:37:51 PM

What sort of economic policy would SF run?

You won't get an answer to that from a SF supporter.
Someone else is going to pay for it, so it really doesn't matter !

I look forward to seeing what they actually do. They'll be the biggest part after the next election, absent a complete collapse.
FF and FG should of course not go into coalition with them due to their diametrically opposed policies and strategies. So they'll need to get the parties of the left to come together, if they don't get the overall majority. That'll be interesting.

Any economists out there like to describe the current FFG economic policy?

Well for example, today's news on economics includes:
- projected growth of 4.5% in the economy this year
- despite the damage wrought by Covid, the economy has been resilient and tax income has held up better than expected
- Modified Domestic Demand, which focuses on the domestic economy, is forecast to grow by 2.5% in 2021 and 7.5% next year

Wheres it all going?

What the SF line of "Just to the rich"?

Pre Covid we were as close to full employment as you can get. Probably would be full employment but our social welfare payments are well in excess of our nearest neighbours.

Pre Covid, the following stats would make very interesting reason and comparisons to other countries:
- % of people who go on regular foreign holidays
- % of people who eat out in a restaurant once a month or more
- % of people who subscribe to Netflix
- % of people who have a least 1 gaming system in the house
- % of people who have a car

I've a strong feeling we'd be high up.

Certainly the UN and other bodies who do "Best places to live" / "qualify of life" analysis, puts Ireland as almost always one of the Top 10 places in the world to live and often closer to the top. In the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, we'd scraping into the Top 50.

As I've said before, FF and FG are a long way from getting everything right, but by in large economic policy in the last 30 years has been pretty good, notwithstanding the crash.

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/7e05d-programme-for-government-our-shared-future/

Tis a great country

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/revealedfamily-members-amongtds-and-senators674k-spend-on-special-allowance-40301794.html

Quote from: Hound on April 14, 2021, 05:15:31 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 14, 2021, 04:36:15 PM

Quote from: Hound on April 14, 2021, 02:02:30 PM

Quote from: tiempo on April 13, 2021, 01:53:27 PM

Quote from: Hound on April 13, 2021, 01:25:48 PM

Quote from: seafoid on April 13, 2021, 12:37:51 PM

What sort of economic policy would SF run?

You won't get an answer to that from a SF supporter.
Someone else is going to pay for it, so it really doesn't matter !

I look forward to seeing what they actually do. They'll be the biggest part after the next election, absent a complete collapse.
FF and FG should of course not go into coalition with them due to their diametrically opposed policies and strategies. So they'll need to get the parties of the left to come together, if they don't get the overall majority. That'll be interesting.

Any economists out there like to describe the current FFG economic policy?

Well for example, today's news on economics includes:
- projected growth of 4.5% in the economy this year
- despite the damage wrought by Covid, the economy has been resilient and tax income has held up better than expected
- Modified Domestic Demand, which focuses on the domestic economy, is forecast to grow by 2.5% in 2021 and 7.5% next year

Wheres it all going?

What the SF line of "Just to the rich"?

Pre Covid we were as close to full employment as you can get. Probably would be full employment but our social welfare payments are well in excess of our nearest neighbours.

Pre Covid, the following stats would make very interesting reason and comparisons to other countries:
- % of people who go on regular foreign holidays
- % of people who eat out in a restaurant once a month or more
- % of people who subscribe to Netflix
- % of people who have a least 1 gaming system in the house
- % of people who have a car

I've a strong feeling we'd be high up.

Certainly the UN and other bodies who do "Best places to live" / "qualify of life" analysis, puts Ireland as almost always one of the Top 10 places in the world to live and often closer to the top. In the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, we'd scraping into the Top 50.

As I've said before, FF and FG are a long way from getting everything right, but by in large economic policy in the last 30 years has been pretty good, notwithstanding the crash.

House prices are beyond the reach of many lower paid workers. They are also contingent.
Voters don't like negative equity. Rents take up huge percentages of wages in some industries. It's all very fragile.

Quote from: Hound on April 14, 2021, 05:15:31 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 14, 2021, 04:36:15 PM

Quote from: Hound on April 14, 2021, 02:02:30 PM

Quote from: tiempo on April 13, 2021, 01:53:27 PM

Quote from: Hound on April 13, 2021, 01:25:48 PM

Quote from: seafoid on April 13, 2021, 12:37:51 PM

What sort of economic policy would SF run?

You won't get an answer to that from a SF supporter.
Someone else is going to pay for it, so it really doesn't matter !

I look forward to seeing what they actually do. They'll be the biggest part after the next election, absent a complete collapse.
FF and FG should of course not go into coalition with them due to their diametrically opposed policies and strategies. So they'll need to get the parties of the left to come together, if they don't get the overall majority. That'll be interesting.

Any economists out there like to describe the current FFG economic policy?

Well for example, today's news on economics includes:
- projected growth of 4.5% in the economy this year
- despite the damage wrought by Covid, the economy has been resilient and tax income has held up better than expected
- Modified Domestic Demand, which focuses on the domestic economy, is forecast to grow by 2.5% in 2021 and 7.5% next year

Wheres it all going?

What the SF line of "Just to the rich"?

Pre Covid we were as close to full employment as you can get. Probably would be full employment but our social welfare payments are well in excess of our nearest neighbours.

Pre Covid, the following stats would make very interesting reason and comparisons to other countries:
- % of people who go on regular foreign holidays
- % of people who eat out in a restaurant once a month or more
- % of people who subscribe to Netflix
- % of people who have a least 1 gaming system in the house
- % of people who have a car

I've a strong feeling we'd be high up.

Certainly the UN and other bodies who do "Best places to live" / "qualify of life" analysis, puts Ireland as almost always one of the Top 10 places in the world to live and often closer to the top. In the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, we'd scraping into the Top 50.

As I've said before, FF and FG are a long way from getting everything right, but by in large economic policy in the last 30 years has been pretty good, notwithstanding the crash.

So why are FF & FG at a lower combined total of the vote than they ever have had in history? We are amongst the happiest people on earth, we have a great economy yet we are turning away from the parties that delivered it? I am not sure this all stacks up Hound.

Obvious answer is because FF have lost their position as by far the biggest party. Reflected in the plethora of Independents.
Other reasons...
Part of the general kick against the Establishment?
People fed up of the same old same old?
Younger folks don't "support" a Party like their parents and grandparents did.
In 2020 difficulties of young people getting housing even the very well off ones, cost of rent, lack of social/affordable housing.
Sinn Féin populism.
Governing parties only seeing an Economy not a Society.

If people are upset at the governing parties at a good economic time what will they be like if we get 5 years of a "Socialist republic"

Quote from: Itchy on April 15, 2021, 10:18:35 AM

Quote from: Hound on April 14, 2021, 05:15:31 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 14, 2021, 04:36:15 PM

Quote from: Hound on April 14, 2021, 02:02:30 PM

Quote from: tiempo on April 13, 2021, 01:53:27 PM

Quote from: Hound on April 13, 2021, 01:25:48 PM

Quote from: seafoid on April 13, 2021, 12:37:51 PM

What sort of economic policy would SF run?

You won't get an answer to that from a SF supporter.
Someone else is going to pay for it, so it really doesn't matter !

I look forward to seeing what they actually do. They'll be the biggest part after the next election, absent a complete collapse.
FF and FG should of course not go into coalition with them due to their diametrically opposed policies and strategies. So they'll need to get the parties of the left to come together, if they don't get the overall majority. That'll be interesting.

Any economists out there like to describe the current FFG economic policy?

Well for example, today's news on economics includes:
- projected growth of 4.5% in the economy this year
- despite the damage wrought by Covid, the economy has been resilient and tax income has held up better than expected
- Modified Domestic Demand, which focuses on the domestic economy, is forecast to grow by 2.5% in 2021 and 7.5% next year

Wheres it all going?

What the SF line of "Just to the rich"?

Pre Covid we were as close to full employment as you can get. Probably would be full employment but our social welfare payments are well in excess of our nearest neighbours.

Pre Covid, the following stats would make very interesting reason and comparisons to other countries:
- % of people who go on regular foreign holidays
- % of people who eat out in a restaurant once a month or more
- % of people who subscribe to Netflix
- % of people who have a least 1 gaming system in the house
- % of people who have a car

I've a strong feeling we'd be high up.

Certainly the UN and other bodies who do "Best places to live" / "qualify of life" analysis, puts Ireland as almost always one of the Top 10 places in the world to live and often closer to the top. In the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, we'd scraping into the Top 50.

As I've said before, FF and FG are a long way from getting everything right, but by in large economic policy in the last 30 years has been pretty good, notwithstanding the crash.

So why are FF & FG at a lower combined total of the vote than they ever have had in history? We are amongst the happiest people on earth, we have a great economy yet we are turning away from the parties that delivered it? I am not sure this all stacks up Hound.

Why did 74 million Americans vote for Donald Trump to be their president?

But in an Irish context, I believe that mistakes get focussed on much more than successes. Some people say that FG and FF don't get criticised in the media. I think that's a load of nonsense and belongs on the conspiracy thread, similar to unionists saying nationalists get special favourable treatment from the PSNI.

You might get away with the odd thing here and there, but in general mistakes are front page news, they are analysed and scrutinised and there's lot of outrage and often exaggeration.  And (apart from the exaggeration piece if that happens) that's exactly what should happen. The government should be accountable for their mistakes.
But when they get stuff right, there's not a whole heap of credit going around, "they're doing their job". Those things I listed above seem to be taken for granted by a lot of people.

Economic policy over the last 3 decades has been very successful, when judged in totality. That's really unarguable, even though some very poor decisions were made by FF around the crash. And people in general would criticise the mistakes of the crash a lot more than give credit to the way the economy has gone since then. In particular in recent years they learned a lot from the mistakes of the crash which resulted in the economy surviving Covid a lot better than expected. But you see don't see too many headlines or social media posts about that.

From an academic viewpoint, I would be fascinated to see how a SF / left alliance would govern this country. I would worry (a lot) that they could jeopardise the economy and drive down employment levels, but maybe they wouldn't and it'd be interesting to see. But when I hear people say "well they can't do any worse than the current crowd", then I think "gobshite". Because certainly that's very possible!

Quote from: Hound on April 15, 2021, 11:31:09 AM

Quote from: Itchy on April 15, 2021, 10:18:35 AM

Quote from: Hound on April 14, 2021, 05:15:31 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 14, 2021, 04:36:15 PM

Quote from: Hound on April 14, 2021, 02:02:30 PM

Quote from: tiempo on April 13, 2021, 01:53:27 PM

Quote from: Hound on April 13, 2021, 01:25:48 PM

Quote from: seafoid on April 13, 2021, 12:37:51 PM

What sort of economic policy would SF run?

You won't get an answer to that from a SF supporter.
Someone else is going to pay for it, so it really doesn't matter !

I look forward to seeing what they actually do. They'll be the biggest part after the next election, absent a complete collapse.
FF and FG should of course not go into coalition with them due to their diametrically opposed policies and strategies. So they'll need to get the parties of the left to come together, if they don't get the overall majority. That'll be interesting.

Any economists out there like to describe the current FFG economic policy?

Well for example, today's news on economics includes:
- projected growth of 4.5% in the economy this year
- despite the damage wrought by Covid, the economy has been resilient and tax income has held up better than expected
- Modified Domestic Demand, which focuses on the domestic economy, is forecast to grow by 2.5% in 2021 and 7.5% next year

Wheres it all going?

What the SF line of "Just to the rich"?

Pre Covid we were as close to full employment as you can get. Probably would be full employment but our social welfare payments are well in excess of our nearest neighbours.

Pre Covid, the following stats would make very interesting reason and comparisons to other countries:
- % of people who go on regular foreign holidays
- % of people who eat out in a restaurant once a month or more
- % of people who subscribe to Netflix
- % of people who have a least 1 gaming system in the house
- % of people who have a car

I've a strong feeling we'd be high up.

Certainly the UN and other bodies who do "Best places to live" / "qualify of life" analysis, puts Ireland as almost always one of the Top 10 places in the world to live and often closer to the top. In the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, we'd scraping into the Top 50.

As I've said before, FF and FG are a long way from getting everything right, but by in large economic policy in the last 30 years has been pretty good, notwithstanding the crash.

So why are FF & FG at a lower combined total of the vote than they ever have had in history? We are amongst the happiest people on earth, we have a great economy yet we are turning away from the parties that delivered it? I am not sure this all stacks up Hound.

Why did 74 million Americans vote for Donald Trump to be their president?

But in an Irish context, I believe that mistakes get focussed on much more than successes. Some people say that FG and FF don't get criticised in the media. I think that's a load of nonsense and belongs on the conspiracy thread, similar to unionists saying nationalists get special favourable treatment from the PSNI.

You might get away with the odd thing here and there, but in general mistakes are front page news, they are analysed and scrutinised and there's lot of outrage and often exaggeration.  And (apart from the exaggeration piece if that happens) that's exactly what should happen. The government should be accountable for their mistakes.
But when they get stuff right, there's not a whole heap of credit going around, "they're doing their job". Those things I listed above seem to be taken for granted by a lot of people.

Economic policy over the last 3 decades has been very successful, when judged in totality. That's really unarguable, even though some very poor decisions were made by FF around the crash. And people in general would criticise the mistakes of the crash a lot more than give credit to the way the economy has gone since then. In particular in recent years they learned a lot from the mistakes of the crash which resulted in the economy surviving Covid a lot better than expected. But you see don't see too many headlines or social media posts about that.

From an academic viewpoint, I would be fascinated to see how a SF / left alliance would govern this country. I would worry (a lot) that they could jeopardise the economy and drive down employment levels, but maybe they wouldn't and it'd be interesting to see. But when I hear people say "well they can't do any worse than the current crowd", then I think "gobshite". Because certainly that's very possible!

If you think that the establishment parties do not get a much easier time of it compared to SF from the media you are deluded.

Quote from: Armagh18 on April 15, 2021, 11:42:26 AM

Quote from: Hound on April 15, 2021, 11:31:09 AM

Quote from: Itchy on April 15, 2021, 10:18:35 AM

Quote from: Hound on April 14, 2021, 05:15:31 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 14, 2021, 04:36:15 PM

Quote from: Hound on April 14, 2021, 02:02:30 PM

Quote from: tiempo on April 13, 2021, 01:53:27 PM

Quote from: Hound on April 13, 2021, 01:25:48 PM

Quote from: seafoid on April 13, 2021, 12:37:51 PM

What sort of economic policy would SF run?

You won't get an answer to that from a SF supporter.
Someone else is going to pay for it, so it really doesn't matter !

I look forward to seeing what they actually do. They'll be the biggest part after the next election, absent a complete collapse.
FF and FG should of course not go into coalition with them due to their diametrically opposed policies and strategies. So they'll need to get the parties of the left to come together, if they don't get the overall majority. That'll be interesting.

Any economists out there like to describe the current FFG economic policy?

Well for example, today's news on economics includes:
- projected growth of 4.5% in the economy this year
- despite the damage wrought by Covid, the economy has been resilient and tax income has held up better than expected
- Modified Domestic Demand, which focuses on the domestic economy, is forecast to grow by 2.5% in 2021 and 7.5% next year

Wheres it all going?

What the SF line of "Just to the rich"?

Pre Covid we were as close to full employment as you can get. Probably would be full employment but our social welfare payments are well in excess of our nearest neighbours.

Pre Covid, the following stats would make very interesting reason and comparisons to other countries:
- % of people who go on regular foreign holidays
- % of people who eat out in a restaurant once a month or more
- % of people who subscribe to Netflix
- % of people who have a least 1 gaming system in the house
- % of people who have a car

I've a strong feeling we'd be high up.

Certainly the UN and other bodies who do "Best places to live" / "qualify of life" analysis, puts Ireland as almost always one of the Top 10 places in the world to live and often closer to the top. In the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, we'd scraping into the Top 50.

As I've said before, FF and FG are a long way from getting everything right, but by in large economic policy in the last 30 years has been pretty good, notwithstanding the crash.

So why are FF & FG at a lower combined total of the vote than they ever have had in history? We are amongst the happiest people on earth, we have a great economy yet we are turning away from the parties that delivered it? I am not sure this all stacks up Hound.

Why did 74 million Americans vote for Donald Trump to be their president?

But in an Irish context, I believe that mistakes get focussed on much more than successes. Some people say that FG and FF don't get criticised in the media. I think that's a load of nonsense and belongs on the conspiracy thread, similar to unionists saying nationalists get special favourable treatment from the PSNI.

You might get away with the odd thing here and there, but in general mistakes are front page news, they are analysed and scrutinised and there's lot of outrage and often exaggeration.  And (apart from the exaggeration piece if that happens) that's exactly what should happen. The government should be accountable for their mistakes.
But when they get stuff right, there's not a whole heap of credit going around, "they're doing their job". Those things I listed above seem to be taken for granted by a lot of people.

Economic policy over the last 3 decades has been very successful, when judged in totality. That's really unarguable, even though some very poor decisions were made by FF around the crash. And people in general would criticise the mistakes of the crash a lot more than give credit to the way the economy has gone since then. In particular in recent years they learned a lot from the mistakes of the crash which resulted in the economy surviving Covid a lot better than expected. But you see don't see too many headlines or social media posts about that.

From an academic viewpoint, I would be fascinated to see how a SF / left alliance would govern this country. I would worry (a lot) that they could jeopardise the economy and drive down employment levels, but maybe they wouldn't and it'd be interesting to see. But when I hear people say "well they can't do any worse than the current crowd", then I think "gobshite". Because certainly that's very possible!

If you think that the establishment parties do not get a much easier time of it compared to SF from the media you are deluded.

Completely agree, it is hard to consider how anyone could not see that. The last general election was a disgrace the way the Quinn family in particular were used to attack SF. Where has the championing of that gone to since. Where are the RTE employees with close links to SF?

Quote from: Armagh18 on April 15, 2021, 11:42:26 AM
If you think that the establishment parties do not get a much easier time of it compared to SF from the media you are deluded.

That's not what I said.

But there have been comments on this thread that FF and FG don't get criticised and that SF suffer only criticism.

In my opinion, the vast majority of people who hold this conspiracy theory of a view don't read the Irish Times and they don't watch current affairs programmes on RTE or TV3/Virgin, they don't watch Mary Lou being interviewed regularly on the Six-One news.

Instead they get their information from people who show them an instance of a SFer getting a hard time and/or an instance of someone from FG or FF getting a seemingly easy ride, and then they take that as carte blanche that FF and FG never get criticised! It's nonsense.
SF love supporters love this conspiracy. Us against the establishment.

Quote from: Hound on April 15, 2021, 12:05:06 PM

Quote from: Armagh18 on April 15, 2021, 11:42:26 AM
If you think that the establishment parties do not get a much easier time of it compared to SF from the media you are deluded.

That's not what I said.

But there have been comments on this thread that FF and FG don't get criticised and that SF suffer only criticism.

In my opinion, the vast majority of people who hold this conspiracy theory of a view don't read the Irish Times and they don't watch current affairs programmes on RTE or TV3/Virgin, they don't watch Mary Lou being interviewed regularly on the Six-One news.

Instead they get their information from people who show them an instance of a SFer getting a hard time and/or an instance of someone from FG or FF getting a seemingly easy ride, and then they take that as carte blanche that FF and FG never get criticised! It's nonsense.
SF love supporters love this conspiracy. Us against the establishment.

I wouldn't say any party gets a free ride, but the "establishment" parties get it much easier than SF for sure.

Quote from: Armagh18 on April 15, 2021, 12:38:36 PM

Quote from: Hound on April 15, 2021, 12:05:06 PM

Quote from: Armagh18 on April 15, 2021, 11:42:26 AM
If you think that the establishment parties do not get a much easier time of it compared to SF from the media you are deluded.

That's not what I said.

But there have been comments on this thread that FF and FG don't get criticised and that SF suffer only criticism.

In my opinion, the vast majority of people who hold this conspiracy theory of a view don't read the Irish Times and they don't watch current affairs programmes on RTE or TV3/Virgin, they don't watch Mary Lou being interviewed regularly on the Six-One news.

Instead they get their information from people who show them an instance of a SFer getting a hard time and/or an instance of someone from FG or FF getting a seemingly easy ride, and then they take that as carte blanche that FF and FG never get criticised! It's nonsense.
SF love supporters love this conspiracy. Us against the establishment.

I wouldn't say any party gets a free ride, but the "establishment" parties get it much easier than SF for sure.

This "establishment" vs "anti-establishment" stuff is straight out of the Trump playbook.
SFs slogan will be "drain the bog" I suppose

Quote from: Tubberman on April 15, 2021, 12:51:16 PM

Quote from: Armagh18 on April 15, 2021, 12:38:36 PM

Quote from: Hound on April 15, 2021, 12:05:06 PM

Quote from: Armagh18 on April 15, 2021, 11:42:26 AM
If you think that the establishment parties do not get a much easier time of it compared to SF from the media you are deluded.

That's not what I said.

But there have been comments on this thread that FF and FG don't get criticised and that SF suffer only criticism.

In my opinion, the vast majority of people who hold this conspiracy theory of a view don't read the Irish Times and they don't watch current affairs programmes on RTE or TV3/Virgin, they don't watch Mary Lou being interviewed regularly on the Six-One news.

Instead they get their information from people who show them an instance of a SFer getting a hard time and/or an instance of someone from FG or FF getting a seemingly easy ride, and then they take that as carte blanche that FF and FG never get criticised! It's nonsense.
SF love supporters love this conspiracy. Us against the establishment.

I wouldn't say any party gets a free ride, but the "establishment" parties get it much easier than SF for sure.

This "establishment" vs "anti-establishment" stuff is straight out of the Trump playbook.
SFs slogan will be "drain the bog" I suppose

What word would you prefer. "Traditional" or something else.

Quote from: Hound on April 15, 2021, 11:31:09 AM

Quote from: Itchy on April 15, 2021, 10:18:35 AM

Quote from: Hound on April 14, 2021, 05:15:31 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 14, 2021, 04:36:15 PM

Quote from: Hound on April 14, 2021, 02:02:30 PM

Quote from: tiempo on April 13, 2021, 01:53:27 PM

Quote from: Hound on April 13, 2021, 01:25:48 PM

Quote from: seafoid on April 13, 2021, 12:37:51 PM

What sort of economic policy would SF run?

You won't get an answer to that from a SF supporter.
Someone else is going to pay for it, so it really doesn't matter !

I look forward to seeing what they actually do. They'll be the biggest part after the next election, absent a complete collapse.
FF and FG should of course not go into coalition with them due to their diametrically opposed policies and strategies. So they'll need to get the parties of the left to come together, if they don't get the overall majority. That'll be interesting.

Any economists out there like to describe the current FFG economic policy?

Well for example, today's news on economics includes:
- projected growth of 4.5% in the economy this year
- despite the damage wrought by Covid, the economy has been resilient and tax income has held up better than expected
- Modified Domestic Demand, which focuses on the domestic economy, is forecast to grow by 2.5% in 2021 and 7.5% next year

Wheres it all going?

What the SF line of "Just to the rich"?

Pre Covid we were as close to full employment as you can get. Probably would be full employment but our social welfare payments are well in excess of our nearest neighbours.

Pre Covid, the following stats would make very interesting reason and comparisons to other countries:
- % of people who go on regular foreign holidays
- % of people who eat out in a restaurant once a month or more
- % of people who subscribe to Netflix
- % of people who have a least 1 gaming system in the house
- % of people who have a car

I've a strong feeling we'd be high up.

Certainly the UN and other bodies who do "Best places to live" / "qualify of life" analysis, puts Ireland as almost always one of the Top 10 places in the world to live and often closer to the top. In the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, we'd scraping into the Top 50.

As I've said before, FF and FG are a long way from getting everything right, but by in large economic policy in the last 30 years has been pretty good, notwithstanding the crash.

So why are FF & FG at a lower combined total of the vote than they ever have had in history? We are amongst the happiest people on earth, we have a great economy yet we are turning away from the parties that delivered it? I am not sure this all stacks up Hound.

Why did 74 million Americans vote for Donald Trump to be their president?

But in an Irish context, I believe that mistakes get focussed on much more than successes. Some people say that FG and FF don't get criticised in the media. I think that's a load of nonsense and belongs on the conspiracy thread, similar to unionists saying nationalists get special favourable treatment from the PSNI.

You might get away with the odd thing here and there, but in general mistakes are front page news, they are analysed and scrutinised and there's lot of outrage and often exaggeration.  And (apart from the exaggeration piece if that happens) that's exactly what should happen. The government should be accountable for their mistakes.
But when they get stuff right, there's not a whole heap of credit going around, "they're doing their job". Those things I listed above seem to be taken for granted by a lot of people.

Economic policy over the last 3 decades has been very successful, when judged in totality. That's really unarguable, even though some very poor decisions were made by FF around the crash. And people in general would criticise the mistakes of the crash a lot more than give credit to the way the economy has gone since then. In particular in recent years they learned a lot from the mistakes of the crash which resulted in the economy surviving Covid a lot better than expected. But you see don't see too many headlines or social media posts about that.

From an academic viewpoint, I would be fascinated to see how a SF / left alliance would govern this country. I would worry (a lot) that they could jeopardise the economy and drive down employment levels, but maybe they wouldn't and it'd be interesting to see. But when I hear people say "well they can't do any worse than the current crowd", then I think "gobshite". Because certainly that's very possible!

Agree with most of that.
Of course SF could do worse. But I do think their ability to change anything dramatically would be limited. Certainly if they only got one term.  I've seen first hand how much power the departments have. Change happens at a snails pace, and only when they want it to. Ministers come and go and the civil servants know this. They'll have the attitude of "we'll just wait this minister out".

Jobs for the boys 🙄🙄

https://www.newstalk.com/news/government-may-be-having-second-thoughts-on-robert-watt-e292k-salary-ross-1181758

Interesting thread.

Amazing the biggest SF bashers are extremely reluctant to disclose who they vote for, are very silent when it comes to criticism of FFG and seemingly vote for unnamed independents.

These people are what you would refer to as the ashamed FFG voter. It's clear as day Rossfan gives his no 1 to a disgraced former minister from the FG gene pool but he's too much of a coward to admit it.

Dublin7 doesn't have the balls to tell us what sort of policies and mandate he votes for but will jump in baldheaded on the SF bashing.

Quote from: macker15 on April 19, 2021, 05:31:23 PM
Jobs for the boys 🙄🙄

https://www.newstalk.com/news/government-may-be-having-second-thoughts-on-robert-watt-e292k-salary-ross-1181758

Actually Robert Watt is neither Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael in his politics but there you go

Don't be letting facts get in the way ;D
Latest Red V poll
FG 30% no change
SF 27% -2
FF 13% +2.
Seats equivalent
48
44
21

Surely this should be huge news in light of what happened this week.

https://extra.ie/2021/05/09/news/irish-news/housing-minister-darragh-obrien-was-an-early-investor-in-so-called-cuckoo-funds

A housing crisis with cuckoo funds profiting out of it and the person who was responsible for the new legislation which did nothing to close these loopholes had previously been involved in these schemes.

Quote from: Angelo on May 09, 2021, 07:36:53 PM
Surely this should be huge news in light of what happened this week.

https://extra.ie/2021/05/09/news/irish-news/housing-minister-darragh-obrien-was-an-early-investor-in-so-called-cuckoo-funds

A housing crisis with cuckoo funds profiting out of it and the person who was responsible for the new legislation which did nothing to close these loopholes had previously been involved in these schemes.

f**king hell

This is a perfect example of why Hound is a bullshit extraordinaire.

The MSM are doing their best to not report on this story when it should be huge news.

1/10 of the coverage the SF database got and it's a far bigger story.

Quote from: Angelo on May 11, 2021, 11:45:36 AM
This is a perfect example of why Hound is a bullshit extraordinaire.

The MSM are doing their best to not report on this story when it should be huge news.

1/10 of the coverage the SF database got and it's a far bigger story.

I'm sure a couple calls were made to DOB. The national media in bed with government doesn't help.

Quote from: macker15 on May 11, 2021, 04:22:37 PM

Quote from: Angelo on May 11, 2021, 11:45:36 AM
This is a perfect example of why Hound is a bullshit extraordinaire.

The MSM are doing their best to not report on this story when it should be huge news.

1/10 of the coverage the SF database got and it's a far bigger story.

I'm sure a couple calls were made to DOB. The national media in bed with government doesn't help.

This is the type of spin you are dealing with:

Quote from: Hound on May 11, 2021, 09:12:54 AM

Quote from: Itchy on May 11, 2021, 08:58:30 AM
We will have to agree to disagree as there is no scientific way to measure this, my gut tells me all parties are not treated equally in the south yours say not true.

That's fair itchy.

I'm not denying that SF get treated harshly at times by IT, RTE and VM, but so do FG and FF at times. And the other parties. But totally agree that it is difficult to measure and of course the tabloids and social media muddy things completely in all directions!

Hard to imagine him having typed that out with a straight face.

Darragh O'Brien looks to have ambitions replacing Mehole later in year according to article

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/big-read-will-darragh-obriens-fianna-fail-ambitions-run-into-a-brick-wall-40403960.html

Oh dear.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/276c34da-b3fd-11eb-9055-64edaa2be8dd?shareToken=a4b38395992d4212887cb7d05c63d1a7

Are FFG capable of making decisions that don't benefit themselves personally first and foremost?

Lefties, SF etc won't be happy

https://www.thejournal.ie/fianna-fail-motion-housing-right-5458317-Jun2021/