Author Topic: Memories/stories of Jack Charlton and of his time as Ireland manager  (Read 4544 times)

BennyCake

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Re: Memories/stories of Jack Charlton and of his time as Ireland manager
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2020, 02:11:16 PM »
Bannside, Greece bored their way to Euro 2004. The Greek fans weren’t complaining. If Ireland had managed to do that in Euro 88 nobody in Ireland would’ve cared either.

Spain were lorded as some superhuman team in 2010, for their supposed beautiful passing game. But they only won every knockout game 1-0. Two of those in ET and one was from a header from a set piece. Spain bored me more in 2010 than Greece did in 2004.

Hound

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Re: Memories/stories of Jack Charlton and of his time as Ireland manager
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2020, 02:33:00 PM »
You can't argue against Charlton's record. He did have a great players at his disposal, and the extension of the granny rule usage meant that we were able to have a squad of good players (under Hand we had some great players, but we always had some lesser lights filling in too).

I think it's the fact of who he beat to the job that does give me pause for thought - "what if we'd had that team and played proper football with the ball?"

What would that team have done had Bob Paisley won the vote?

Johnny Giles said the vote was Paisley 10, Charlton 3, Giles 3, Tuohy 3. Instead of awarding it to Paisley as he had more than 50%, they decided that the rules allowed or demanded a second round. He doesn't know why they picked Charlton rather than himself or Tuohy as the finalist but it was just Paisley v Charlton in round 2.

Then, in addition to getting all 9 non-Paisley votes from the first round, Bernard O'Byrne switched from Paisley to Charlton, so Jack won 10-9.
It was an amazing electoral victory!

Also must be said of Jack that he managed Paul McGrath superbly. To get as much out of Paul and for so long, was great man management (he'd good club managers at Villa too, to be fair)

Captain Obvious

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Re: Memories/stories of Jack Charlton and of his time as Ireland manager
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2020, 03:25:23 PM »
You can't argue against Charlton's record. He did have a great players at his disposal, and the extension of the granny rule usage meant that we were able to have a squad of good players (under Hand we had some great players, but we always had some lesser lights filling in too).

I think it's the fact of who he beat to the job that does give me pause for thought - "what if we'd had that team and played proper football with the ball?"

What would that team have done had Bob Paisley won the vote?

Johnny Giles said the vote was Paisley 10, Charlton 3, Giles 3, Tuohy 3. Instead of awarding it to Paisley as he had more than 50%, they decided that the rules allowed or demanded a second round. He doesn't know why they picked Charlton rather than himself or Tuohy as the finalist but it was just Paisley v Charlton in round 2.

Then, in addition to getting all 9 non-Paisley votes from the first round, Bernard O'Byrne switched from Paisley to Charlton, so Jack won 10-9.
It was an amazing electoral victory!

Also must be said of Jack that he managed Paul McGrath superbly. To get as much out of Paul and for so long, was great man management (he'd good club managers at Villa too, to be fair)

Didn't Paisley get alzheimer's a few years later?

Hound

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Re: Memories/stories of Jack Charlton and of his time as Ireland manager
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2020, 03:30:34 PM »
You can't argue against Charlton's record. He did have a great players at his disposal, and the extension of the granny rule usage meant that we were able to have a squad of good players (under Hand we had some great players, but we always had some lesser lights filling in too).

I think it's the fact of who he beat to the job that does give me pause for thought - "what if we'd had that team and played proper football with the ball?"

What would that team have done had Bob Paisley won the vote?

Johnny Giles said the vote was Paisley 10, Charlton 3, Giles 3, Tuohy 3. Instead of awarding it to Paisley as he had more than 50%, they decided that the rules allowed or demanded a second round. He doesn't know why they picked Charlton rather than himself or Tuohy as the finalist but it was just Paisley v Charlton in round 2.

Then, in addition to getting all 9 non-Paisley votes from the first round, Bernard O'Byrne switched from Paisley to Charlton, so Jack won 10-9.
It was an amazing electoral victory!

Also must be said of Jack that he managed Paul McGrath superbly. To get as much out of Paul and for so long, was great man management (he'd good club managers at Villa too, to be fair)

Didn't Paisley get alzheimer's a few years later?
Yep. 1992, so 6 years after the appointment. At least that was when he stepped down from Liverpool director duties due to it. 

bigarsedkeeper

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Re: Memories/stories of Jack Charlton and of his time as Ireland manager
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2020, 03:42:20 PM »
Of the 1990 squad, Kevin Sheedy (1987), Steve Staunton (1990), Ray Houghton (1990), Ronnie Whelan (1990), John Aldridge (1988), David O'Leary (1989) all won English First Division medals around that time (Whelan was in the squad). McGrath arguably better than any of those and several other top flight players. It was a really good squad.

I think in hindsight the criticism of the style of play was a little overstated. Dunphy's outburst during the Egypt game, though mostly valid, was motivated by other things as he subsequently acknowledged. I think we should have been able to adapt a bit once/if we went behind. Not bringing Brady was not right in my opinion but overall he got a lot right.
In Jacks book he talked about his first game having 6 top flight centre halves available - Moran, McGrath, O'Leary, McCarthy & Lawrenson are the ones I can think of. Not sure if McCarthy was top flight though.

I think he tried to make a system that used the players he had, rightly or wrongly. It didn't work in 94 because he hadn't got the target man and the back pass rule was changed. They had some excellent players at both tournaments to be fair.

Billys Boots

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Re: Memories/stories of Jack Charlton and of his time as Ireland manager
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2020, 04:28:10 PM »
Of the 1990 squad, Kevin Sheedy (1987), Steve Staunton (1990), Ray Houghton (1990), Ronnie Whelan (1990), John Aldridge (1988), David O'Leary (1989) all won English First Division medals around that time (Whelan was in the squad). McGrath arguably better than any of those and several other top flight players. It was a really good squad.

I think in hindsight the criticism of the style of play was a little overstated. Dunphy's outburst during the Egypt game, though mostly valid, was motivated by other things as he subsequently acknowledged. I think we should have been able to adapt a bit once/if we went behind. Not bringing Brady was not right in my opinion but overall he got a lot right.

The recent podcast 'Italia 90 - One Day at a Time' is a very good listen about the dynamic at the time, in the squad and outside, is a very good listen Seanie.
My hands are stained with thistle milk ...

BennyCake

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Re: Memories/stories of Jack Charlton and of his time as Ireland manager
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2020, 05:58:07 PM »
You can't argue against Charlton's record. He did have a great players at his disposal, and the extension of the granny rule usage meant that we were able to have a squad of good players (under Hand we had some great players, but we always had some lesser lights filling in too).

I think it's the fact of who he beat to the job that does give me pause for thought - "what if we'd had that team and played proper football with the ball?"

What would that team have done had Bob Paisley won the vote?

Johnny Giles said the vote was Paisley 10, Charlton 3, Giles 3, Tuohy 3. Instead of awarding it to Paisley as he had more than 50%, they decided that the rules allowed or demanded a second round. He doesn't know why they picked Charlton rather than himself or Tuohy as the finalist but it was just Paisley v Charlton in round 2.

Then, in addition to getting all 9 non-Paisley votes from the first round, Bernard O'Byrne switched from Paisley to Charlton, so Jack won 10-9.
It was an amazing electoral victory!

Also must be said of Jack that he managed Paul McGrath superbly. To get as much out of Paul and for so long, was great man management (he'd good club managers at Villa too, to be fair)

Didn't Paisley get alzheimer's a few years later?
Yep. 1992, so 6 years after the appointment. At least that was when he stepped down from Liverpool director duties due to it.

It might have been working on him for a few years though.

From the Bunker

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Re: Memories/stories of Jack Charlton and of his time as Ireland manager
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2020, 06:45:22 PM »
As well as having a definite plan. Being was his own man and not doing what the (real) Irish Soccer public wanted. Using David O'Leary as an example of anyone who did not sing from his hymn sheet.

Jack got a lorry load of luck along the way. Qualifying for Euro '88 with the help of Gary McKay.  But I suppose like all good Managers - You have to be in the position to take advantage of good luck to get it!



An Watcher

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Re: Memories/stories of Jack Charlton and of his time as Ireland manager
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2020, 07:20:18 PM »
Alot is made of the Egypt result however this is the same Egypt team that drew with the then European Champions, Holland and who England struggled to beat one nil.  I loved this period in Irish football but whose to say we would have qualified for these big tournaments playing football the right way? If I remember rightly our group for euro 88 included Scotland, Bulgaria and Belgium (all who qualified for WC86). Belgium actually finished 4th in 86 I think. That was a hell of a group to come through. The group for italia 90 also contained three WC86 qualifiers in Spain, Hungary and the Billy boys.

macdanger2

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Re: Memories/stories of Jack Charlton and of his time as Ireland manager
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2020, 08:19:47 PM »
I presume the fact that his gamelan was relatively simple was an advantage at international level where managers don't get huge amounts of time with the players

weareros

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Re: Memories/stories of Jack Charlton and of his time as Ireland manager
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2020, 09:56:55 PM »
As well as having a definite plan. Being was his own man and not doing what the (real) Irish Soccer public wanted. Using David O'Leary as an example of anyone who did not sing from his hymn sheet.

Jack got a lorry load of luck along the way. Qualifying for Euro '88 with the help of Gary McKay.  But I suppose like all good Managers - You have to be in the position to take advantage of good luck to get it!

In some ways it was luck balancing itself out. Did not deserve to lose 2-1 in Sofia after a fine second half performance. Was also very unlucky in 1992 Euro qualifying, played both England and Poland off the park in the away games, but 4pts lost.

From the Bunker

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Re: Memories/stories of Jack Charlton and of his time as Ireland manager
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2020, 10:43:00 PM »
As well as having a definite plan. Being was his own man and not doing what the (real) Irish Soccer public wanted. Using David O'Leary as an example of anyone who did not sing from his hymn sheet.

Jack got a lorry load of luck along the way. Qualifying for Euro '88 with the help of Gary McKay.  But I suppose like all good Managers - You have to be in the position to take advantage of good luck to get it!

In some ways it was luck balancing itself out. Did not deserve to lose 2-1 in Sofia after a fine second half performance. Was also very unlucky in 1992 Euro qualifying, played both England and Poland off the park in the away games, but 4pts lost.

Denis wise had a HAND in getting full points in Turkey in that campaign.

See 3:04

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=659n6iUuoqE

mouview

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Re: Memories/stories of Jack Charlton and of his time as Ireland manager
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2020, 11:26:13 PM »
Askance Big Jack memories;

Crap football, freezing out Dave O'Leary for years, Harry Ramsden challenge, getting snippy on air when Michael Lyster asked him why we couldn't beat Liechenstein.

In fairness to Jack, he got in fairly early on Saipan and said on Saturday Night Live Late Late (or whatever) -  'Roy is wrong. I don't want anyone feeling sorry for him. He's wrong'.

ONeill

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Re: Memories/stories of Jack Charlton and of his time as Ireland manager
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2020, 11:30:01 PM »
I remember him coming in to my local pub in East Tyrone and buying everyone a drink. There were only 5 in it at the time in but the barman cashed the cheque anyway and didn't put it on the wall. Jack wasn't happy.
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Rufus T Firefly

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Re: Memories/stories of Jack Charlton and of his time as Ireland manager
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2020, 12:08:38 AM »
I remember him coming in to my local pub in East Tyrone and buying everyone a drink. There were only 5 in it at the time in but the barman cashed the cheque anyway and didn't put it on the wall. Jack wasn't happy.

 ;D