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After getting our water back on following an outage from 23rd to 28th December I'm totally peeved at NI Water. I got confilcting stories from different call centre employees, complaints from them about having to work over Christmas and finally not even able to get through to them. On the one hand they told me they only had skeleton staff over Xmas and on the other now all over the news they supposedly had extra staff on over Xmas! I was offered alternative water supply on Christmas eve and didnt get anything until boxing day, even though I offered to collect water anywhere it was available! I dont believe anything from them at this point.
I think they're badly managed and not fit for purpose. Our rates pay for them and we may get water charges added in on top of that!
Hopefully this poll will help highlight what people really think of NI Water after recent events.

Having dealt with them in the past over sewage, water connection issues they are a joke.

Send your complaints to Conor Murphy as ultimately they're  on his watch. A poll on here won't solve anything.

NI Water are doing the best they can. A root and branch change would cost millions and improve service a little, but coping with the recent bad weather would still be a struggle.

Brilliant, get the finger pointing started good an early Marty.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12088872
is there no-one our elected leaders won't blame?

Maybe Marty should walk round the corner to his Minister in charge and see where blame could be allocated.

N.Ireland Water isn't fit for purpose and judging by their press released they acknowledge that. Under-Investment, and an over-bloated civil service attitude for 30 years is enough to wreck any company.

Fit for porpoise more like  ;)

England, Scotland and Wales experienced similarly harsh weather recently.


Is there any particular reason(s) why Northern Ireland has coped so badly ( apparently ) ?.

Under investment in the infrastructure for 40 years compared to other countries.

Northern Ireland's deputy first minister has said he feels "absolutely let down" by NI Water's handling of a crisis in water supplies.He was speaking as 36,000 people across NI struggled to cope without water - some for 11 days.

Information is being provided on the NI Water website on when water supplies will be switched on - and cut off

Meanwhile, the Scottish government is to provide 160,000 litres of bottled water.

Martin McGuinness said people had not been given enough information as to when water would be restored."My focus is on how NI Water can do things better over the course of the next number of days," he said.

Northern Ireland Water has said an unprecedented number of leaks caused by the thaw following a long period of freezing weather have been putting "big pressure" on its systems.

Mr McGuinness said: "Our concern has to be around the difficulties experienced by elderly people and young people with very young babies," he said.

Northern Ireland Water is a government-run company and is NI's sole provider of water and sewerage services.

We had the Troubles and that has led to a level of underinvestment in the network which is now manifesting some problems for us which we're trying to deal with as fast as we can.

We're under demand from three things.

We have bursts in our own network and we're repairing those as fast as we can.

We have home usage, people are filling baths and that's something we're trying to deter because that just puts more strain on the system.

We know there are vacant premises where people are off for Christmas, we know that there are businesses that are being flooded, so we're pleading with our business customers to visit their premises, if you've got a leak get it isolated - that'll shut it off and will help to bring the reservoir levels up again.
Regional Development Minister Conor Murphy said: "The big problems have been communication and the lack of information on the ground.

"People want certainty that they are going to get accurate information as to what is happening and to get water restored."

Northern Ireland Water has warned that the disruption could continue for several more days.

Executive ministers are to hold a meeting on Thursday to discuss the crisis.

Almost 80 towns and villages across NI have been affected.

Local councils are working to supply water and offer free showers to people without a mains supply.

Belfast City Council has opened an emergency call centre - Belfast residents can call 0800 707 6965 for information on where to get water and what other assistance the council can give.

Armagh Council has drinking water available from a number of recreation and community centres as is Craigavon Council.

NI Water said an unprecedented number of leaks caused by the thaw had put "big pressure" on its systems.

The company said it was alternating supplies from reservoirs in a bid to give every area a limited supply, causing more interruptions.

Liam Mulholland, head of customer services for NI Water, said the circumstances were unusual and unprecedented.

"It is understandable that people are angry," he said.

"The level of contacts that we have had is unprecedented. In a normal day we would take about 1,000 calls. But that has risen by 600%. We are doing everything we can. We have more than 300 staff out seeking and fixing bursts."

Asked why Scotland had not experienced similar cuts to supplies, he said: "Scotland has had investment, whereas we haven't."

He also appealed to people to report burst pipes.


People queued for water at leisure centres "There is an immense drain on the system because of vacant premises," he said. "We would appeal to business owners to please check their premises."

Dame Joan Harbison, who speaks on behalf of older people, said many pensioners are struggling to cope.

"There are many older people throughout Northern Ireland who haven't access to water, who can't go to where the water is and certainly can't stand in long queues for long periods of time to actually get water," she said.

"I do think that the Public Health Agency and other health agencies need to get themselves organised to deal with what may actually become a health emergency as well as a water emergency."

Dr Peter Maguire, a doctor from Newry, has been living for eight days without water.

"This is really now a public health emergency. NI Water has been shambolic. Young families have been left without drinking water and not able to flush toilets. This is unacceptable.

"There are too many vulnerable people who are now without a water supply for over a week," he said.

"The situation is unprecedented but now it is getting out of control."

Environment Minister Edwin Poots said NI Water was not properly prepared.

"Everybody knew that whenever the thaw came that there was going to be big problems with water, so I think that there was a lack of preparation by NI Water, particularly in the issue of communication," he said.

"I think that it's limited how much they can do, the engineers, the guys on the ground, they're just going to have to work their way through all of the problems. But in terms of communicating those problems with the community, they failed and failed very miserably."

Emergency centres have been set up across Northern Ireland to supply water. Leisure centres are also open to offer free bathing facilities.

Details are available from NI Water, telephone: 08457 440088, on Ceefax and BBC News Online.

The Fire Service and the Red Cross have stepped in to help.

Worried farmers have been among dozens of people contacting the BBC about their water supply problems.

Quote from: bailestil on December 29, 2010, 05:56:56 PM
Under investment in the infrastructure for 40 years compared to other countries.

Nice soundbite but nothing to do with the main issue with NIW which is lack of communication.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 29, 2010, 06:55:27 PM

Quote from: bailestil on December 29, 2010, 05:56:56 PM
Under investment in the infrastructure for 40 years compared to other countries.

Nice soundbite but nothing to do with the main issue with NIW which is lack of communication.

To be fair, if there had been the investment in infrastructure then we wouldn't be discussing the chaos in the first place as it wouldn't have happened ... for 40 years successive British governments insisted that the security budget was in addition to the infrastructure budget, a blatant lie.  The security budget was diverted from cash that would have been invested in infrastructure (a la England, Wales and Scotland), it wasn't on top of that money.  Now the chickens are coming home to roost and the latest shenanigans will be used as an excuse by right wingers to demand the introduction of water charges to replace a water system that should have been revamped years ago using money already taken from us in tax and rates. Instead that money was used to ensure Protestant farmers could have another job dressing up in RUC or UDR uniforms of an evening and harassing their neighbours

NI water are saying that the majority of problems are with burst pipes on private property. Is this a smoke screen considering that scotland should be affected in a similar way (assuming their building control standards are the same)

Martin Mc Guinness was on a roll about water charges that "well heeled economists" are trying to impose.

Quote from: Take Your Points on December 29, 2010, 10:16:38 PM
The Chief Executive of NI Water explained on TV tonight that the problem was that the thaw was too fast!

Did he mean that if the thaw had been slower than the holes in the pipes would have sealed themselves over?

Honest to god it just shows what government bodies think of the public when they come out with statements like that. "Thaw was too fast" that has to be one of the best yet. They all sit in there warm offices throughout the year on their big salaries and when the shit hits the fan they are shown up for what they are worth.... f all. The blame game will go on and come the spring all will be brushed under the carpet till the next big freeze. People should really be worried about the quality of water that will now be coming out of the taps as it is bound to be of poor quality.
Thank god we have a good spring well and don't rely on the mains. It is shocking to be living on an Island with a good steady rainfall every year and we are running out of water. Have we really moved on that much as a modern culture.

Quote from: Hereiam on December 30, 2010, 12:37:16 AM
"Thaw was too fast" that has to be one of the best yet.

Not defending the general ineptitude, but I'd say that what he was saying here was not that the fast thaw caused the leaks, rather that with all leaks springing at once their finite resources were spread too thin, i.e., had the thaw been slower they might have been able to get more of their personnel to them as they occurred (or relatively shortly thereafter), and not been overwhelmed.

One of the major problems was that they wouldnt pay staff to work over xmas. I was told a number of times on the phone that they only had skeleton staff working. Now our water went off the day before xmas eve. When I reported it they said that our was actually they only outage they had reported which was due to a burst water main and the rest were private issues so it should get fixed soon. They had some problem finding the source of the burst, which I dont understand as we are in a town and the houses before and after our estate all had water. So our water wasnt fixed on Xmas eve. I was told that the ground was too hard for them to excavate! There must be some crappy diggers in NI Water.
Anyway, the point is, if they had more than a skeleton staff on over Xmas and had fixed the isolated issues when they first started to appear, it would have taken the pressure off when the rest of the outages appeared due to a thaw. The only reason for them not doing this is money. They would have had to pay the engineers more over xmas. So they were happy to let people go without so they could save a quid. Now everyone is suffereing for this ineptitude.

Quote from: tbrick18 on December 30, 2010, 11:59:32 AM
One of the major problems was that they wouldnt pay staff to work over xmas. I was told a number of times on the phone that they only had skeleton staff working. Now our water went off the day before xmas eve. When I reported it they said that our was actually they only outage they had reported which was due to a burst water main and the rest were private issues so it should get fixed soon. They had some problem finding the source of the burst, which I dont understand as we are in a town and the houses before and after our estate all had water. So our water wasnt fixed on Xmas eve. I was told that the ground was too hard for them to excavate! There must be some crappy diggers in NI Water.
Anyway, the point is, if they had more than a skeleton staff on over Xmas and had fixed the isolated issues when they first started to appear, it would have taken the pressure off when the rest of the outages appeared due to a thaw. The only reason for them not doing this is money. They would have had to pay the engineers more over xmas. So they were happy to let people go without so they could save a quid. Now everyone is suffereing for this ineptitude.

Not everyone wants to work over christmas, especially people with young families. What would you say if they had offered the double/triple time to their engineers and they turned it down? Are their staff not entitled to Christmas off too?

Quote from: thebigfella on December 30, 2010, 12:36:29 PM

Quote from: tbrick18 on December 30, 2010, 11:59:32 AM
One of the major problems was that they wouldnt pay staff to work over xmas. I was told a number of times on the phone that they only had skeleton staff working. Now our water went off the day before xmas eve. When I reported it they said that our was actually they only outage they had reported which was due to a burst water main and the rest were private issues so it should get fixed soon. They had some problem finding the source of the burst, which I dont understand as we are in a town and the houses before and after our estate all had water. So our water wasnt fixed on Xmas eve. I was told that the ground was too hard for them to excavate! There must be some crappy diggers in NI Water.
Anyway, the point is, if they had more than a skeleton staff on over Xmas and had fixed the isolated issues when they first started to appear, it would have taken the pressure off when the rest of the outages appeared due to a thaw. The only reason for them not doing this is money. They would have had to pay the engineers more over xmas. So they were happy to let people go without so they could save a quid. Now everyone is suffereing for this ineptitude.

Not everyone wants to work over christmas, especially people with young families. What would you say if they had offered the double/triple time to their engineers and they turned it down? Are their staff not entitled to Christmas off too?

Erm no-one is "entitled" to a long Christmas holiday. It's up to the company to ensure they have sufficient coverage for the work on their plate. As there was a freeze on during December and a thaw forecast for Christmas week they should have cut their cloth accordingly. Public companies and associated unions don't think of the greater good as long as the workers are happy.

Quote from: thebigfella on December 30, 2010, 12:36:29 PM
Not everyone wants to work over christmas, especially people with young families.

What about the people with young families and no water? Surely it's more of a concern that those who actually need water takes precedence over those who have the desire to be with their families?

Water should be a 365 days per year commodity (where at all possible), and if (some) employees of NIW are uncomfortable with that thought perhaps they're in the wrong job.

Quote from: thebigfella on December 30, 2010, 12:36:29 PM

Quote from: tbrick18 on December 30, 2010, 11:59:32 AM
One of the major problems was that they wouldnt pay staff to work over xmas. I was told a number of times on the phone that they only had skeleton staff working. Now our water went off the day before xmas eve. When I reported it they said that our was actually they only outage they had reported which was due to a burst water main and the rest were private issues so it should get fixed soon. They had some problem finding the source of the burst, which I dont understand as we are in a town and the houses before and after our estate all had water. So our water wasnt fixed on Xmas eve. I was told that the ground was too hard for them to excavate! There must be some crappy diggers in NI Water.
Anyway, the point is, if they had more than a skeleton staff on over Xmas and had fixed the isolated issues when they first started to appear, it would have taken the pressure off when the rest of the outages appeared due to a thaw. The only reason for them not doing this is money. They would have had to pay the engineers more over xmas. So they were happy to let people go without so they could save a quid. Now everyone is suffereing for this ineptitude.

Not everyone wants to work over christmas, especially people with young families. What would you say if they had offered the double/triple time to their engineers and they turned it down? Are their staff not entitled to Christmas off too?

I doubt the workers were ever offered double/triple time to work over xmas (i'd take your arm off for triple time), i'd bet my bottom dollar management decided this was an expensive no no and hence the problems.

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on December 30, 2010, 01:09:58 PM

Quote from: thebigfella on December 30, 2010, 12:36:29 PM
Not everyone wants to work over christmas, especially people with young families.

What about the people with young families and no water? Surely it's more of a concern that those who actually need water takes precedence over those who have the desire to be with their families?

Water should be a 365 days per year commodity (where at all possible), and if (some) employees of NIW are uncomfortable with that thought perhaps they're in the wrong job.

This is exactly the point I made on the phone to one of the NI Water complainants! NI Water are supposed to provide water 365 days a year. How they do that is up to them.....however I would have thought given the current economic climate that people are glad to have work of any sort and will work as much as possible when given the opportunity. You work for NI Water BigFella?
I work in a private company and the only day of the year they actually close is Xmas day....but we still provide cover on Xmas day for emergencies. In any contract of employment it generally states your contracted hours and salary and that you can be asked to work additional hours at the company's discretion. If NI Water staff do not want to work in extenuating circumstances then its time NI Water employed the staff who will so that they can provide the service they are contracted to do.
NI Water also have a lot of sub-contractors they can use if their own staff are unwilling anyway....so why werent they called in over Xmas?

I have not given this issue a great deal of thought, yet there are other factors which need to be noted. Some people have had the taps running in their houses from early december incase they freeze. Even more annoying is the number of people whom I have seen today washing cars and powerwashing their drives, This must be making the situation even worse.

Quote from: tbrick18 on December 30, 2010, 01:49:37 PM
If NI Water staff do not want to work in extenuating circumstances then its time NI Water employed the staff who will so that they can provide the service they are contracted to do.
NI Water also have a lot of sub-contractors they can use if their own staff are unwilling anyway....so why werent they called in over Xmas?

Have we any evidence to suggest that the staff turned down work offered to them? As you say they have sub-contractors which could have been called in if this was the case but they weren't, leads me to say that management must have made the descision not to pay people to work over the xmas peroid.
Lets get it straight and point the finger at the guys getting paid the big money to make the big desicions ie management and not try to shift the blame onto the workers who will almost certainly have had no say in the matter.

Quote from: Sandino on December 30, 2010, 02:07:02 PM
I have not given this issue a great deal of thought, yet there are other factors which need to be noted. Some people have had the taps running in their houses from early december incase they freeze. Even more annoying is the number of people whom I have seen today washing cars and powerwashing their drives, This must be making the situation even worse.

certainly won't be helping the situation.

I see on a bulletin the NI Water are saying most of the leaks are on private property and dwellings which I suppose isn't and shouldn't be on their remit to repair but if they're losing too much pressure then they'll shut off some area's I'd that thought.

Quote from: red hander on December 29, 2010, 08:25:19 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 29, 2010, 06:55:27 PM

Quote from: bailestil on December 29, 2010, 05:56:56 PM
Under investment in the infrastructure for 40 years compared to other countries.

Nice soundbite but nothing to do with the main issue with NIW which is lack of communication.

To be fair, if there had been the investment in infrastructure then we wouldn't be discussing the chaos in the first place as it wouldn't have happened ... for 40 years successive British governments insisted that the security budget was in addition to the infrastructure budget, a blatant lie.  The security budget was diverted from cash that would have been invested in infrastructure (a la England, Wales and Scotland), it wasn't on top of that money.  Now the chickens are coming home to roost and the latest shenanigans will be used as an excuse by right wingers to demand the introduction of water charges to replace a water system that should have been revamped years ago using money already taken from us in tax and rates. Instead that money was used to ensure Protestant farmers could have another job dressing up in RUC or UDR uniforms of an evening and harassing their neighbours

The UDR to blame?  Best one yet! :D :D

To me this is like the economic crisis. It makes people realise that they have a lot and what it's like not to have it. As with lots of money and houses, there was a time in Ireland when there was no water and people bathed in rivers and seas and in the rain. I can even remember my estranged father saying he used to go to the toilet in the woods and clean himself with docken leaves with foxes and wolves eyeing him up.

Quote from: Tonto on December 30, 2010, 04:41:26 PM

Quote from: red hander on December 29, 2010, 08:25:19 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 29, 2010, 06:55:27 PM

Quote from: bailestil on December 29, 2010, 05:56:56 PM
Under investment in the infrastructure for 40 years compared to other countries.

Nice soundbite but nothing to do with the main issue with NIW which is lack of communication.

To be fair, if there had been the investment in infrastructure then we wouldn't be discussing the chaos in the first place as it wouldn't have happened ... for 40 years successive British governments insisted that the security budget was in addition to the infrastructure budget, a blatant lie.  The security budget was diverted from cash that would have been invested in infrastructure (a la England, Wales and Scotland), it wasn't on top of that money.  Now the chickens are coming home to roost and the latest shenanigans will be used as an excuse by right wingers to demand the introduction of water charges to replace a water system that should have been revamped years ago using money already taken from us in tax and rates. Instead that money was used to ensure Protestant farmers could have another job dressing up in RUC or UDR uniforms of an evening and harassing their neighbours

The UDR to blame?  Best one yet! :D :D

Definitely the best one yet. I'll second that one just in case it doesn't get a seconder.   ;)

Quote from: Olly on December 30, 2010, 05:30:52 PM
To me this is like the economic crisis. It makes people realise that they have a lot and what it's like not to have it. As with lots of money and houses, there was a time in Ireland when there was no water and people bathed in rivers and seas and in the rain. I can even remember my estranged father saying he used to go to the toilet in the woods and clean himself with docken leaves with foxes and wolves eyeing him up.

The laughs in this thread keep coming.  Your da remembers the 18th Century, does he?  Wolves eyeing him up as he wiped his arse!  :D :D

So this is what it is like to live in Africa, only without the chance of a nice suntan.

Quote from: Tonto on December 30, 2010, 05:40:41 PM

The laughs in this thread keep coming.  Your da remembers the 18th Century, does he?  Wolves eyeing him up as he wiped his arse!  :D :D

What are you trying to say? It's a well known suspected fact that wolves and pumas still roam Ireland and particularly northern Ireland woodland areas.

Quote from: Olly on December 30, 2010, 05:48:52 PM

Quote from: Tonto on December 30, 2010, 05:40:41 PM

The laughs in this thread keep coming.  Your da remembers the 18th Century, does he?  Wolves eyeing him up as he wiped his arse!  :D :D

What are you trying to say? It's a well known suspected fact that wolves and pumas still roam Ireland and particularly northern Ireland woodland areas.

A "suspected fact"!!?? :D  Excellent!

Tonto - for all your astuteness in your original post in this thread - you've kinda ruined it all with the second post! Dear oh Dear.

That was funny.

Re read. He didn't actually say his estranged relative lived in Ireland. It's great to laugh at a gobshite who jumps the gun.

Ref Hereiam, he mentions the possibility of poor quality of water out of the taps. Used to know someone who worked there (NIW), and the quality of the water was almost next to none.

Out of interest, when was the last time any of you had a bath as apposed to a shower; including after a hard game (glass houses)

Some of he poliiticians responses have been daft, but when as as a population as NI really had a problem with their home water supplies.

Quote from: ardal on December 30, 2010, 06:09:40 PM
Re read. He didn't actually say his estranged relative lived in Ireland. It's great to laugh at a gobshite who jumps the gun.

I'm sure he'll be delighted at a knight in shinging armour coming to his rescue but he DID mention Ireland in his first post and his second without implying that he was referring to elsewhere so I think it's a stretch now to say he was talking about his estranged father going to Siberia to wipe his arse. ;)

Tonto - this is too much fun so I shouldnt tell you to go and have a read at Olly's posts since his "inception". You'd be doing yourself a massive favour.  :D

My estranged father lives in central Asia.

FM Peter Robinson says that NI Water is not FIT FOR PURPOSE.

He described the response as shambolic.

Quote from: Olly on December 30, 2010, 06:19:15 PM
My estranged father lives in central Asia.

;D Nicely done YCY ;D

Quote from: orangeman on December 30, 2010, 06:33:41 PM
FM Peter Robinson says that NI Water is not FIT FOR PURPOSE.

He described the response as shambolic.

So will he ask for the Minister in charge resignation?
Obviously not cause all hell would likely break out and as usual everyone loses to maintain the political status quo.

*sigh* no wonder this place is a shambles.

I think this will all ultimately lead to Water Charges. Can you complain about poor service for something we are expecting on the cheap?
Secretary of State - as usual - telling the wee men on the hill what needs to be done. It'll take them another 12 months to come to the same conclusion. Just like the budget which was 18 months late.

Quote from: Take Your Points on December 30, 2010, 08:50:35 PM
Two simple solutions:

1. Gradually introduce water charges via meters rather than rates, make people think about consumption and disposal.  All non-domestic customers have to pay for the water they consume and the sewage they dispose through the system.

2. Privatise NI Water and use the proceeds to fund other capital work.

Will this happen, not under the current marxist-socialist minister?

Do non-domestic customers not already have a metered water supply?

NI Water did only have a skelton staff working over christmas, as like almost every other job, the staff were taking there annual christmas holidays

When the thaw came and the leaks became apparent, staff members were all asked to come in to work if they could, even to answer phone calls!

Quote from: Take Your Points on December 30, 2010, 08:50:35 PM
Two simple solutions:

1. Gradually introduce water charges via meters rather than rates, make people think about consumption and disposal.  All non-domestic customers have to pay for the water they consume and the sewage they dispose through the system.

2. Privatise NI Water and use the proceeds to fund other capital work.

Will this happen, not under the current marxist-socialist minister?

Any pray tell how would any of that have solved the problems at hand, once you starting charging for water do the pipes suddenly become immune to bursting in a freeze  ???
That has to be the most harebrained reason for privitasing a utility/fundamental human right  i've ever heard.

Just to answer a few questions and points raised over the thread to date. I am neither an apologist or defender for NIW but just giving answers from my own experience of dealing with them every day.

The call centre response and dealing with calls has been a complete shambles and is at the route of the problem. They where badly understaffed which led to widespread frustration from people trying to report leaks or no water supply.

NIW subcontractors have been working every day since the freeze and thaw started, including Christmas day and boxing day, they will be working new years eve and new years day as well. There are a limited number of contractors allowed to carry out this work due to the tender process by which the leakage and repair contract was tendered. Effectively there is one contractor who uses a network of smaller subcontractors to carry out the work. There is a large number of other water main contractors who are equally campable of carrying out the works and are on stand by to start tomorrow morning. They should have been out since boxing day given the scale of the problems. NIW themselves have only a small number of direct staff capable of carrying the works out.

The recent weather is the most severe on record for this time of year. It wasnt the low temperature but the prolonged low temperature the did the majoriy of the damage followed by the rapid thaw. As stupid as it sounds the speed of the thaw has caused most of the pipe fractures.

The vast majority of leaks are not on the distrubution network but on private property. This isnt helped by the time of year with more properties than normal unoccupied. The acts of self preservation by those who have left taps running is disgusting, the car washing and power washing is as bad. People are to used to getting water for nothing, this has to change. Not only should water charges be introduced but it should be by volume as opposed to a lazy charge for all.

When people get something for nothing they place no value on it.

The actions of the minister responsible are also shoddy. Over the last few years water charges have been delayed by all the political parties for electoral reasons. He has stated over the last 6 months that he wants to take NIW back into full public control. This will not work and it should be privatised as quickly as possible.

Any new connection carried out over the last 5 years has a meter fitted. It would pay for itself within a year to fit meters to the rest of the customers. There also needs to be an amnesty given for all unauthorised connections that have been made over the years after which any unregistered connection discovered results in prosecution and back charging.

Quote from: delboy on December 30, 2010, 10:19:46 PM

Quote from: Take Your Points on December 30, 2010, 08:50:35 PM
Two simple solutions:

1. Gradually introduce water charges via meters rather than rates, make people think about consumption and disposal.  All non-domestic customers have to pay for the water they consume and the sewage they dispose through the system.

2. Privatise NI Water and use the proceeds to fund other capital work.

Will this happen, not under the current marxist-socialist minister?

Any pray tell how would any of that have solved the problems at hand, once you starting charging for water do the pipes suddenly become immune to bursting in a freeze  ???
That has to be the most harebrained reason for privitasing a utility/fundamental human right  i've ever heard.

Its quite simple, the capital used is spent on network improvements.

Im sick over the last week listening to human rights bullshit speak.

Quote from: delboy on December 30, 2010, 10:19:46 PM

Quote from: Take Your Points on December 30, 2010, 08:50:35 PM
Two simple solutions:

1. Gradually introduce water charges via meters rather than rates, make people think about consumption and disposal.  All non-domestic customers have to pay for the water they consume and the sewage they dispose through the system.

2. Privatise NI Water and use the proceeds to fund other capital work.

Will this happen, not under the current marxist-socialist minister?

Any pray tell how would any of that have solved the problems at hand, once you starting charging for water do the pipes suddenly become immune to bursting in a freeze  ???
That has to be the most harebrained reason for privitasing a utility/fundamental human right  i've ever heard.

As you well know the assumption is that water charges introduce some much needed investment to allow a rolling upgrade to the water infrastructure. Not that much of a stretch really?!

Quote from: Take Your Points on December 30, 2010, 09:34:56 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 30, 2010, 08:53:36 PM
Do non-domestic customers not already have a metered water supply?

That is what I meant to say.  I was trying to point out that the metering system was already in place to calculate bills for water and sewage.  Extending the system to domestic customers would require meters for everyone which would take some time to implement.

And costly.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 30, 2010, 10:28:58 PM

Quote from: delboy on December 30, 2010, 10:19:46 PM

Quote from: Take Your Points on December 30, 2010, 08:50:35 PM
Two simple solutions:

1. Gradually introduce water charges via meters rather than rates, make people think about consumption and disposal.  All non-domestic customers have to pay for the water they consume and the sewage they dispose through the system.

2. Privatise NI Water and use the proceeds to fund other capital work.

Will this happen, not under the current marxist-socialist minister?

Any pray tell how would any of that have solved the problems at hand, once you starting charging for water do the pipes suddenly become immune to bursting in a freeze  ???
That has to be the most harebrained reason for privitasing a utility/fundamental human right  i've ever heard.

As you well know the assumption is that water charges introduce some much needed investment to allow a rolling upgrade to the water infrastructure. Not that much of a stretch really?!

Quote from: Take Your Points on December 30, 2010, 09:34:56 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 30, 2010, 08:53:36 PM
Do non-domestic customers not already have a metered water supply?

That is what I meant to say.  I was trying to point out that the metering system was already in place to calculate bills for water and sewage.  Extending the system to domestic customers would require meters for everyone which would take some time to implement.

And costly.

Somewhere between £150 and £200 million. Would be money well spent. Every domestic user should have an allowance and once they go over it they should be charged.

Quote from: delboy on December 30, 2010, 10:19:46 PM

Quote from: Take Your Points on December 30, 2010, 08:50:35 PM
Two simple solutions:

1. Gradually introduce water charges via meters rather than rates, make people think about consumption and disposal.  All non-domestic customers have to pay for the water they consume and the sewage they dispose through the system.

2. Privatise NI Water and use the proceeds to fund other capital work.

Will this happen, not under the current marxist-socialist minister?

Any pray tell how would any of that have solved the problems at hand, once you starting charging for water do the pipes suddenly become immune to bursting in a freeze  ???
That has to be the most harebrained reason for privitasing a utility/fundamental human right  i've ever heard.

Do realise how money and the economy work?
If not, you should think about a career in poltics in NI.

Oakleafgael a sensible post.
Fundamental problems with NIW exist which can only be rectified with political will.
Don't be holding your breath.
If this happened 5 years ago as the old water board. You would hear all our politicians blaming the DOE and te direct rule minister.
Now even though it's a GoCo they now feel free to finger point

Quote from: oakleafgael on December 30, 2010, 10:27:53 PM

Quote from: delboy on December 30, 2010, 10:19:46 PM

Quote from: Take Your Points on December 30, 2010, 08:50:35 PM
Two simple solutions:

1. Gradually introduce water charges via meters rather than rates, make people think about consumption and disposal.  All non-domestic customers have to pay for the water they consume and the sewage they dispose through the system.

2. Privatise NI Water and use the proceeds to fund other capital work.

Will this happen, not under the current marxist-socialist minister?

Any pray tell how would any of that have solved the problems at hand, once you starting charging for water do the pipes suddenly become immune to bursting in a freeze  ???
That has to be the most harebrained reason for privitasing a utility/fundamental human right  i've ever heard.

Its quite simple, the capital used is spent on network improvements.

Im sick over the last week listening to human rights bullshit speak.

A big chunk of the capital raised and profits squeezed for hardup households will be used to pay dividends year after year to whoever gets awarded this golden goose, im sorry but i don't see privitisation as the panacea that some do.

I cant see water charges for the sole reason the politicians havent the balls to introduce them. Not within six months of any upcoming election anyway.

Quote from: bailestil on December 30, 2010, 10:37:54 PM

Quote from: delboy on December 30, 2010, 10:19:46 PM

Quote from: Take Your Points on December 30, 2010, 08:50:35 PM
Two simple solutions:

1. Gradually introduce water charges via meters rather than rates, make people think about consumption and disposal.  All non-domestic customers have to pay for the water they consume and the sewage they dispose through the system.

2. Privatise NI Water and use the proceeds to fund other capital work.

Will this happen, not under the current marxist-socialist minister?

Any pray tell how would any of that have solved the problems at hand, once you starting charging for water do the pipes suddenly become immune to bursting in a freeze  ???
That has to be the most harebrained reason for privitasing a utility/fundamental human right  i've ever heard.

Do realise how money and the economy work?
If not, you should think about a career in poltics in NI.

Oakleafgael a sensible post.
Fundamental problems with NIW exist which can only be rectified with political will.
Don't be holding your breath.
If this happened 5 years ago as the old water board. You would hear all our politicians blaming the DOE and te direct rule minister.
Now even though it's a GoCo they now feel free to finger point

Yeah i have a modicum of understanding and thats why im not keen to see a key utility like water (in a closed market that exists in NI) handed over to the money men to generate profits for themselves on the basis of a few pipes bursting (mostly in private properties) during a highly unusal spell of weather, talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water (pardon the pun).
Do you think when profitablity becomes the primary concern that we would see more or less of the sort of staffing problems (overheads in the balance sheet) that we seen over the xams, my money is on more problems from understaffing not less.

There was a comment on the BBC news today that the water regulator stated to the Beeb that £1 for £1 expenditure in NI was 40% less efficient than in England, Scotland and Wales. Don't know what this is based on.

Delboy,

If you dont want a private water supplier, whats your alternative and how would you fund it?

Delboy. 

Would we have been better If BT had stayed as public?

Want water? Pay for it. Want more? Pay more.
This must happen no matter what the shinners spout between now and the election.

Quote from: oakleafgael on December 30, 2010, 10:48:34 PM
Delboy,

If you dont want a private water supplier, whats your alternative and how would you fund it?

Well i would like to see it retained as a government owned company instead of being used by a few to generate enormous profits, i would want some clarity as to whether any of the rates at present goes to water (it still isn't 100 % clear) if any does go to water i'd like to see them stripped out of the normal rates so that we don't end up paying twice so to speak. We should then set an additional but seperate water rates levy, i wouldn't bother to meter as the costs associated with metering add greatly to the overall bill.

I would tell the EU to get stuffed and make the changes as we saw fit (cost/benefit analysis) and at our pace and not at the dictate of brussels. And if we needed to make any major investments i'd recommened we do what governments have been doing for years when it comes to infrastructure investments, borrow the money!

Quote from: delboy on December 30, 2010, 11:03:39 PM

Quote from: oakleafgael on December 30, 2010, 10:48:34 PM
Delboy,

If you dont want a private water supplier, whats your alternative and how would you fund it?

Well i would like to see it retained as a government owned company instead of being used by a few to generate enormous profits, i would want some clarity as to whether any of the rates at present goes to water (it still isn't 100 % clear) if any does go to water i'd like to see them stripped out of the normal rates so that we don't end up paying twice so to speak. We should then set an additional but seperate water rates levy, i wouldn't bother to meter as the costs associated with metering add greatly to the overall bill.

I would tell the EU to get stuffed and make the changes as we saw fit (cost/benefit analysis) and at our pace and not at the dictate of brussels. And if we needed to make any major investments i'd recommened we do what governments have been doing for years when it comes to infrastructure investments, borrow the money!

Metering has to be introduced to make it a fair system. Otherwise you will have the current sitation continue with people leaving taps running and leaks unrepared as it costs them nothing.

None of the current rates we pay go to NIW, they havent for at least 20 years or so since the days when it stated water rates on your bill. NIW funding comes from the common pot.

Quote from: oakleafgael on December 30, 2010, 11:14:59 PM

Quote from: delboy on December 30, 2010, 11:03:39 PM

Quote from: oakleafgael on December 30, 2010, 10:48:34 PM
Delboy,

If you dont want a private water supplier, whats your alternative and how would you fund it?

Well i would like to see it retained as a government owned company instead of being used by a few to generate enormous profits, i would want some clarity as to whether any of the rates at present goes to water (it still isn't 100 % clear) if any does go to water i'd like to see them stripped out of the normal rates so that we don't end up paying twice so to speak. We should then set an additional but seperate water rates levy, i wouldn't bother to meter as the costs associated with metering add greatly to the overall bill.

I would tell the EU to get stuffed and make the changes as we saw fit (cost/benefit analysis) and at our pace and not at the dictate of brussels. And if we needed to make any major investments i'd recommened we do what governments have been doing for years when it comes to infrastructure investments, borrow the money!

Metering has to be introduced to make it a fair system. Otherwise you will have the current sitation continue with people leaving taps running and leaks unrepared as it costs them nothing.

None of the current rates we pay go to NIW, they havent for at least 20 years or so since the days when it stated water rates on your bill. NIW funding comes from the common pot.

I could have swore the rates was made up of the district rates which is the council basically and the regional rates which amongst other things pays towards water and sewage.

Heres a quote from a local council website

"Regional Rate - what is it used for?

The Regional Rate is set by Central Government and local Councils HAVE NO control over this. It is the same for all 26 Councils and is used to contribute to the cost of providing a range of services such as: - Education, Housing, Social Services, Roads, Water and Sewerage."

It would at least seem that there might still be some confusion on the matter.

As for metering im not sure it passes the cost/benefit analysis it will only add to the overall burden off costs and for less than 10 % reduction in domestic usage (most of our water usage comes from commercial), much better spend to spend the money tackling the leaks in the system which represent more overall water.
Also metering strikes me as highly regressive, despite being a small family that would probably not suffer from it my natural sense of fair play would be irked by seeing a struggling large but low income family paying a large proportion of their income to pay for a fundamental commidity and human right (i don't think thats fair).

Lemonade being used to flush toilets in Northern Ireland

Some residents in Northern Ireland have been resorting to cheap lemonade to keep their toilets flushed during the water crisis.

With supermarket shelves stripped of bottled water almost as soon as it arrives, some householders in east Belfast were turning to the next best thing to fill their toilet cisterns — lemonade from their local supermarket's value range.

At 18p for two litres, Tesco's Value lemonade proved almost as cheap as buying its Value bottled water at 17p for two litres — and much easier to get hold of.

Yesterday taxi driver Jim Stewart described collecting a man from Mersey Street who had travelled to the Connswater branch of Tesco to pick up bottled water, only to switch to the fizzy alternative when none was available.

"When he went in, there were others all buying the basic lemonade because there was no bottled water left.

"They were all using the lemonade to fill their toilet cistern," he said.

A Tesco spokesman last night said the supermarket chain has good supplies of bottled water and is keeping it replenished.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/lemonade-being-used-to-flush-toilets-in-northern-ireland-15042734.html?r=RSS

Quote from: oakleafgael on December 30, 2010, 10:24:28 PM
Just to answer a few questions and points raised over the thread to date. I am neither an apologist or defender for NIW but just giving answers from my own experience of dealing with them every day.

The call centre response and dealing with calls has been a complete shambles and is at the route of the problem. They where badly understaffed which led to widespread frustration from people trying to report leaks or no water supply.

NIW subcontractors have been working every day since the freeze and thaw started, including Christmas day and boxing day, they will be working new years eve and new years day as well. There are a limited number of contractors allowed to carry out this work due to the tender process by which the leakage and repair contract was tendered. Effectively there is one contractor who uses a network of smaller subcontractors to carry out the work. There is a large number of other water main contractors who are equally campable of carrying out the works and are on stand by to start tomorrow morning. They should have been out since boxing day given the scale of the problems. NIW themselves have only a small number of direct staff capable of carrying the works out.

The recent weather is the most severe on record for this time of year. It wasnt the low temperature but the prolonged low temperature the did the majoriy of the damage followed by the rapid thaw. As stupid as it sounds the speed of the thaw has caused most of the pipe fractures.

The vast majority of leaks are not on the distrubution network but on private property. This isnt helped by the time of year with more properties than normal unoccupied. The acts of self preservation by those who have left taps running is disgusting, the car washing and power washing is as bad. People are to used to getting water for nothing, this has to change. Not only should water charges be introduced but it should be by volume as opposed to a lazy charge for all.

When people get something for nothing they place no value on it.

The actions of the minister responsible are also shoddy. Over the last few years water charges have been delayed by all the political parties for electoral reasons. He has stated over the last 6 months that he wants to take NIW back into full public control. This will not work and it should be privatised as quickly as possible.

Any new connection carried out over the last 5 years has a meter fitted. It would pay for itself within a year to fit meters to the rest of the customers. There also needs to be an amnesty given for all unauthorised connections that have been made over the years after which any unregistered connection discovered results in prosecution and back charging.

NIW did call its office staff to come in to cover the phones but at only time in lieu, hardly an incentive for people to work over their holidays was it?

I'm not so sure privatization is the answer to NI waters woe's and using BT as an example who had a complete monopoly on infrastructure yet failed to invest in it for many's a year and in rural area's still fail to do so so as to wring every last penny out of their current kit before needing to upgrade. In terms of broadband speeds, NI is still pretty shit in large swathes of it. Most of South East Asia has better broadband rates than we do.
There is no guarantees that a privatized NI water would invest in infrastructure as the current model bandied about for water charges is based on current expenditure divided by the number of users, add in a little margin for the newly privatize company, picked up by the  customer then that'll remain.

What's the incentive for joe bloggs to use less water if they're not metered?

What's the incentive for a newly privatised NI water to fix the leaks in their system (even on a good day) when they're guaranteed their profit at the end of the year? Their main aim would be to please share holders, not customers.


Public bodies are inherently wasteful due to the life time civil servants have little or no business acumen as there's never been a requirement for them to do so, big ship the navy and all that. The trick would be to incentivise the management with properly defined key performance indicators taking into account efficiency levels of service with the end customer being a major part of that. Let me know if someone in a public position actually manages that.

Privatising a monopolised (and fundamental) utility is asking for trouble, as is leaving it totally within the realm of the public sector domain.

Perhaps something like a Public Private Partnership (PPP) might be the best way forward, despite the awful hames of those the southern 'government' has made over the last two decades where they were basically licences to print money. That would mean that there would be private sector enterprise and expertise for a finite financial return (over 30 years or such), but where the utility would remain in public ownership.

Quote from: Take Your Points on December 31, 2010, 11:44:29 AM
]

PPP was a disaster here where it was used for schools and we will pay for it for the next 25 years.

In what way?

I know a girl who taught in a PPP school and she said she'd never seen so many vending machines in a school in her life.

Quote from: johnneycool on December 31, 2010, 12:08:22 PM

Quote from: Take Your Points on December 31, 2010, 11:44:29 AM
]

PPP was a disaster here where it was used for schools and we will pay for it for the next 25 years.

In what way?

I know a girl who taught in a PPP school and she said she'd never seen so many vending machines in a school in her life.

Was Balmoral High School a PPP initiative? It ended well.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 31, 2010, 12:27:12 PM

Quote from: johnneycool on December 31, 2010, 12:08:22 PM

Quote from: Take Your Points on December 31, 2010, 11:44:29 AM
]

PPP was a disaster here where it was used for schools and we will pay for it for the next 25 years.

In what way?

I know a girl who taught in a PPP school and she said she'd never seen so many vending machines in a school in her life.

Was Balmoral High School a PPP initiative? It ended well.

Yes it was but that school was built for political reasons as most know.

I work in a PPP school and it has went well.
Know quite a few others who teach in them and they have few complaints.
You will find with the drying up of government funds, it will probably be the only way that a school can secure a new building in the future.

Dodgy interactive map (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/interactive/2010/dec/31/northern-ireland-water-shortages)

Quote from: Take Your Points on December 31, 2010, 01:37:02 PM
For those who work in PPP school buildings the experience is currently good but wait until the maintenance issues begin to kick in the fabric begins to get scruffy.  In most schools, this can be quickly and relatively cheaply remedied.  In PPP builds the structure is built to a minimum standard to allow it to last just 25 years, the heat, light and maintenance costs are top sliced from the school budget and they are controlled by a legally binding agreement which has little or no variation.  Those running the school must operate within the agreement.  In a large institution that I know about, the PPP company had specified in the agreement that the temperature of the building would never fall below a certain temperature which for weekends and nights was relatively high.  This meant that the amount of heating and cooling in the building was minimal and easy on the fabric.  However, the cost of the heating was carried by the institution.  Nothing could be done to lower the cost without changing the commercial agreement which required compensation to the PPP company and large amount to the lawyers.  If you want simple changes to the building the cost from the owners far outweighs the actually cost.  A large PPP school in West Belfast found that it had a stage in the assembly hall with no doors to exit to the rear during productions.  As this was essential to the school a doorway was asked to be cut to allow the stage exit.  The cost ran into thousands for a job that at most would have been cover by one thousand.  You cannot make simple additions to the fabric without permission of the owners, such as an extra noticeboard or a lick of paint to freshen up an area of the school.  I could go on.  None of these initially impact on the staff in these institutions but eventually as the educational cuts begin to bite the top slice of the budget going to the PPP company will remain constant or more likely increase with inflation while the allocation to the school does not match either inflation or even the incremental salary rises of staff (since there won't be a pay rise for two years).  This can only result in job losses as schools cannot make savings in any other area because these areas are covered by the PPP company who are well insulated by their commercial agreement for 25 years!

I thought you had! ;D

I would be opposed to privatising the Water providor here for a number of reasons - most have already been mentioned.
It wouldnt guarantee any improvement, it would line the pockets of privateers at the expense of the public but mainly IMO water is a fundamental right that we shouldnt have to pay for over and above our domestic rates.
I dont see the point of metering all private households as I cant see that there would be huge differences in the water usage of each house.
I think NI Water should remain, but it needs restructured and re-organised. It should be given a budget (taken from the rates fees) and be given a set of targets it needs to meet every year. Part of those targets should be an upgrade of the system, but should also include detailed plans on how to manage the existing system during the course of the upgrade. Over time as more of the system is upgraded, less time and money would need to be spent on the existing system.
First priority for NI Water though should be that all outages must be repaired within certain time frames. How they do this should be taken into account as part of the restructure I believe the company need.

How long will it take to privatise NI Water ?

The Northern Ireland Secretary of State has warned there could be major changes in how the NI water supply is financed.

Owen Paterson said Northern Ireland's infrastructure had suffered over the years and that changes were now needed.

The structures are already in place, there was a fairly comprhensive transition/restructuring from fully public sector to a GOCO, the terms and conditions of staff who transferred to the new GOCO still broadly mirror civil servants AFAIK, new staff's would be fairly pants I'd imagine.   All that's required is the political will (excuse) so it's coming post-assembly elections in all likelihood.  If and when it does come I sincerely hope we retain the GOCO model, complete privitisation will be good for noone except shareholders (and the Government I suppose who'll be hoping to get thousands of staff of their payroll/pensions contributions etc...)  There's more financial pain ahead no matter what.

What is the situation down south?  Privatised, Council run, centrally run???

I have a barrel full of rain water out the back if any of ye want it.

Any of yous going to the New Year Party at NI Water ? If so, bring a bottle !!

Quote from: bennydorano on December 31, 2010, 04:57:51 PM
The structures are already in place, there was a fairly comprhensive transition/restructuring from fully public sector to a GOCO, the terms and conditions of staff who transferred to the new GOCO still broadly mirror civil servants AFAIK, new staff's would be fairly pants I'd imagine.   All that's required is the political will (excuse) so it's coming post-assembly elections in all likelihood.  If and when it does come I sincerely hope we retain the GOCO model, complete privitisation will be good for noone except shareholders (and the Government I suppose who'll be hoping to get thousands of staff of their payroll/pensions contributions etc...)  There's more financial pain ahead no matter what.

What is the situation down south?  Privatised, Council run, centrally run???

Conor Murphy has already put the wheels in motion to make NIW a full public sector body again. This will waste hundreds of millions to satisfy his political ideals. NIW has been rudderless for years. Whn it was a public sector body there was no accountability and the waste was shocking. Since moving to GOCO there has been massive improvements, whih wouldnt have been hard. They now have excellent frameworks in place for repair and installations of networks which are excellent value for money.

The people in the north dont realise how lucky they are in comparison to the south. There the water networks are run by the county councils which is madness. Every county council has the same staff with massive unnecessary duplication. Parish pump politics is rife with spending often allocated to areas where it is not needed for electoral reason. The GWS's are still having to orgainise to try and get large rural areas a potable water supply with many still drinking untreated water for springs etc.

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on December 31, 2010, 11:00:29 AM
Privatising a monopolised (and fundamental) utility is asking for trouble, as is leaving it totally within the realm of the public sector domain.

Perhaps something like a Public Private Partnership (PPP) might be the best way forward, despite the awful hames of those the southern 'government' has made over the last two decades where they were basically licences to print money. That would mean that there would be private sector enterprise and expertise for a finite financial return (over 30 years or such), but where the utility would remain in public ownership.

There has been a few PPP schemes used by NIW. They are a disaster for some of the reasons TYP has outlined. The groups providing the schemes have used the bare minimum spec wise, NIW's fault for that, and the running costs have been very high.

NIW have been saying that everyone will be back on the network by early next week. There isnt a hope of that happening. It will be at least another 2 weeks before the repairs are carried out. The majority will have water again net week but the pressures will be a problem for weeks with some area being turned off at night etc. People may not notice the outages at night but thats the reality of the situation.

Burst pipes and bad weather prompt school closure fears


The water crisis and the prospect of a second bout of icy weather have prompted fears that schools across Northern Ireland may not open as scheduled next week.

Education Minster Caitriona Ruane said school buildings had been damaged.

"Problems include lack of mains water supply, burst pipes, broken toilets and damaged ceilings," she said.

She said her department was working to ensure schools could open as soon as possible.

"My officials have been in contact with the schools' managing authorities to ensure all affected schools are operational as soon as possible," she said.

"As we are expecting colder weather to return it is important that schools take adequate precautions to protect their buildings from further damage."

The Department of Education will be advised by NI Water on Sunday 2 January about where interruptions to mains water supply may impact on schools.

On Monday 3 January, Education and Library Boards will tell the department which schools will not open as scheduled.

The boards will communicate directly with the vast majority of schools.

However, schools in the voluntary grammar and grant maintained integrated sectors who have a direct link with Deni in relation to capital and maintenance issues are asked to telephone: 028 9127 9480, 028 9127 9481 and 028 9127 9473 on Monday between 0900 GMT and 1200 GMT

Quote from: oakleafgael on January 01, 2011, 09:22:58 AM

Quote from: bennydorano on December 31, 2010, 04:57:51 PM
The structures are already in place, there was a fairly comprhensive transition/restructuring from fully public sector to a GOCO, the terms and conditions of staff who transferred to the new GOCO still broadly mirror civil servants AFAIK, new staff's would be fairly pants I'd imagine.   All that's required is the political will (excuse) so it's coming post-assembly elections in all likelihood.  If and when it does come I sincerely hope we retain the GOCO model, complete privitisation will be good for noone except shareholders (and the Government I suppose who'll be hoping to get thousands of staff of their payroll/pensions contributions etc...)  There's more financial pain ahead no matter what.

What is the situation down south?  Privatised, Council run, centrally run???

Conor Murphy has already put the wheels in motion to make NIW a full public sector body again. This will waste hundreds of millions to satisfy his political ideals. NIW has been rudderless for years. Whn it was a public sector body there was no accountability and the waste was shocking. Since moving to GOCO there has been massive improvements, whih wouldnt have been hard. They now have excellent frameworks in place for repair and installations of networks which are excellent value for money.

The people in the north dont realise how lucky they are in comparison to the south. There the water networks are run by the county councils which is madness. Every county council has the same staff with massive unnecessary duplication. Parish pump politics is rife with spending often allocated to areas where it is not needed for electoral reason. The GWS's are still having to orgainise to try and get large rural areas a potable water supply with many still drinking untreated water for springs etc.

Surely Murphy would have to get such an exercise trough the assembly? Hard to  see right-wing Unionists giving it the necessary cross-community support. We might also see SF/DUP giving that portfolio a by-ball after the next assembly elections as it has proved very troublesome.

Vandals dump 22,000l of water as families struggle

Vandals have opened valves on bowsers in County Tyrone and emptied out nearly 5,000 gallons (22,730 litres) of water.

About 2,000 homes in the area are still without a running water supply. NI Water filled the bowsers at Gortgonis Park, Coalisland on Friday for the weekend.

But during the night, vandals opened the valves and let the water run out.

It happened as NI Water revealed that 4,000 homes in Northern Ireland were still without supplies.

The worst affected areas are Cookstown, Warrenpoint, Burren and Hannahstown.

Northern Ireland's water crisis began before Christmas as a thaw in severe icy weather led to thousands of burst pipes at homes and businesses.

As a result, some people were left without water for nearly two weeks.

On Saturday, NI Water said that about 12,000 people in the Belfast area whose water was being turned on and off on a rotational basis should now have water.

Supplies may be rotated later in the evening.

As well as repairing the supply network, NI water says its staff are also inspecting private property for leaks. It is urging business owners and landlords to repair any burst pipes as a matter of urgency.

The company plans to refill the Coalisland bowsers later on Saturday.

Francie Molloy, who is MLA for the area, condemned those responsible for opening the valves.

"People thought that because this service was being provided that people would respect it and just can't believe that someone would be so callous as to actually open valves and just let that water flow away," he said.
'Vital water'

"Strangers didn't come in to do this, it was local people and it's the local people that are actually being deprived of vital water."

NI Water has issued a list of places in Belfast where water supplies should be restored by 1200 GMT on Saturday. They are in BT5, BT6 and BT18.

These include Lawnmount Street, Ravenhill Street, Ravenhill Avenue, Castlereagh Place, Hollycroft Road, Willowfield, Castlereagh, Ardenlee Avenue, east Belfast and Depot Road, Holywood.

NI Water interim chairman Padraic White has said he hoped there would be a gradual improvement in the coming days as reservoir levels rise.

Quote from: delboy on December 31, 2010, 12:14:28 AM

I could have swore the rates was made up of the district rates which is the council basically and the regional rates which amongst other things pays towards water and sewage.

Heres a quote from a local council website

"Regional Rate - what is it used for?

The Regional Rate is set by Central Government and local Councils HAVE NO control over this. It is the same for all 26 Councils and is used to contribute to the cost of providing a range of services such as: - Education, Housing, Social Services, Roads, Water and Sewerage."

It would at least seem that there might still be some confusion on the matter.

The regional rate simply goes into the NI Executive's "pot", and it only makes up 5% of the total of the Executive's "income". As it's not hypothecated it could be said to be a contribution towards any of the services funded by the Executive.

QuoteAlso metering strikes me as highly regressive, despite being a small family that would probably not suffer from it my natural sense of fair play would be irked by seeing a struggling large but low income family paying a large proportion of their income to pay for a fundamental commidity and human right (i don't think thats fair).

I think paying for a utility based on the amount of useage is inherently fair.

Would you expect some people to have their electricity, or oil, or gas subsidised by other people who are using less?

Quote from: tyroneboi on January 01, 2011, 01:49:33 PM
Vandals dump 22,000l of water as families struggle

Vandals have opened valves on bowsers in County Tyrone and emptied out nearly 5,000 gallons (22,730 litres) of water.

About 2,000 homes in the area are still without a running water supply. NI Water filled the bowsers at Gortgonis Park, Coalisland on Friday for the weekend.

But during the night, vandals opened the valves and let the water run out.

It happened as NI Water revealed that 4,000 homes in Northern Ireland were still without supplies.

The worst affected areas are Cookstown, Warrenpoint, Burren and Hannahstown.

Northern Ireland's water crisis began before Christmas as a thaw in severe icy weather led to thousands of burst pipes at homes and businesses.

As a result, some people were left without water for nearly two weeks.

On Saturday, NI Water said that about 12,000 people in the Belfast area whose water was being turned on and off on a rotational basis should now have water.

Supplies may be rotated later in the evening.

As well as repairing the supply network, NI water says its staff are also inspecting private property for leaks. It is urging business owners and landlords to repair any burst pipes as a matter of urgency.

The company plans to refill the Coalisland bowsers later on Saturday.

Francie Molloy, who is MLA for the area, condemned those responsible for opening the valves.

"People thought that because this service was being provided that people would respect it and just can't believe that someone would be so callous as to actually open valves and just let that water flow away," he said.
'Vital water'

"Strangers didn't come in to do this, it was local people and it's the local people that are actually being deprived of vital water."

NI Water has issued a list of places in Belfast where water supplies should be restored by 1200 GMT on Saturday. They are in BT5, BT6 and BT18.

These include Lawnmount Street, Ravenhill Street, Ravenhill Avenue, Castlereagh Place, Hollycroft Road, Willowfield, Castlereagh, Ardenlee Avenue, east Belfast and Depot Road, Holywood.

NI Water interim chairman Padraic White has said he hoped there would be a gradual improvement in the coming days as reservoir levels rise.

doesnt surprise me in the slightest. that particular area is full of scum.

anyway still no water for me since Monday. its been a great week off!

Quote from: Take Your Points on January 01, 2011, 08:02:32 PM
This answer to the problem we had this week for two days, it might be of interest to some of you, especially my friend Oakleafgael!

http://www.stopcockcosy.com/index.htm (http://www.stopcockcosy.com/index.htm)

Good man TYP, but they arent needed if the insulation that comes with the box is fitted properly, or is put back properly any time someone takes it out to turn off the water or read a meter.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7939297.stm

what is worse - making a multi million forecast mistake or overseeing the current water fiasco?

Quote from: Take Your Points on January 01, 2011, 08:19:26 PM
Our insulation was just a polystyrene disc.  It was suggested that I should fill the box with polystrene beads.  I intend to monitor the amount of water in the box and try to keep it dry.

Happy new year, Oakleafgael

TYP,

Thats all that is required if the lid if fitted correctly and the insulation is fitted correctly.

Happy new year to you also.

Quote from: clarshack on January 01, 2011, 07:33:06 PM

doesnt surprise me in the slightest. that particular area is full of scum.

anyway still no water for me since Monday. its been a great week off!

And thats being kind clarshack!!

When did that phrase 'fit for purpose' enter into common usage?  Was it some of the free state politicians talking about the dept of finance down here about 2 months ago - I don't like it at all tbh, is it even gramatically correct?  Can the nordies not invent their own catchphrases?

The civil service have been pushing that "fit for purpose" crap for the last few years.  With the impending review of public administration the aim is to enable an easy transfer of responsibilities.

"Fit for purpose" is a term used for quality.

So the question is, is NI Water Service giving "quality" to it's customers?

Quote from: Take Your Points on January 02, 2011, 11:58:32 AM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 02, 2011, 11:03:27 AM
"Fit for purpose" is a term used for quality.

So the question is, is NI Water Service giving "quality" to it's customers?

The answer is an undoubted YES!

The quality of our water is first class.

The work carried out in extreme conditions by the men on the ground to repair the burst pipes was beyond reproach.  How many could have gone out in sub-zero conditions and carried out repairs on pipes and dug through mud when they should have been at home with their families at Christmas?

The work carried out in disposing of the sewage from our is first class.

Do we ever give a thought to this quality product from the hundreds of people working on a daily basis on jobs that most of us wouldn't want to do or even give much thought to when we turn on a tap, switch on a washing machine, take a bath or shower or flush the toilet?

It is vital to disconnect the response to the crisis by the management of NIW from the work by the employees in so many areas.

This thread made no distinction between managment and staff for a reason. NI Water are a "Company" comprising managment and staff. It wasnt intended to suggest who exactly in NI Water was to blame...purely to pose the question "Are NI Water fit to provide the service they are in place to provide?". I phrased this question as "fit for purpose" which some people seem to take offence to....whatever they like.
IMO NI Water as it is, is not capable of providing the service they are in place to provide. Someone mentioned quality of water, that very much depends on where you live. Ours isnt great at the best of times. I also know people who live in areas where the water goes off regulalry. A number of times every month without fail, with no explanation from NI Water. And now we have this episode.

Quote from: oakleafgael on January 01, 2011, 08:12:49 PM

Quote from: Take Your Points on January 01, 2011, 08:02:32 PM
This answer to the problem we had this week for two days, it might be of interest to some of you, especially my friend Oakleafgael!

http://www.stopcockcosy.com/index.htm (http://www.stopcockcosy.com/index.htm)

Good man TYP, but they arent needed if the insulation that comes with the box is fitted properly, or is put back properly any time someone takes it out to turn off the water or read a meter.

As building regulations go, that stopcockcosy image is quite hare-brained.
The pipe from the mains to the private dwelling should be placed in a layer of sand some 6cm to 10cm below the frost line.
(http://www.stopcockcosy.com/images/3d_close_coloursmall.jpg)

Blaming the fast thaw for burst pipes is akin to blaming the sudden stop for the damage, after a fall.

Quote from: Bogball XV on January 02, 2011, 12:37:11 AM
When did that phrase 'fit for purpose' enter into common usage?  Was it some of the free state politicians talking about the dept of finance down here about 2 months ago - I don't like it at all tbh, is it even gramatically correct?  Can the nordies not invent their own catchphrases?

Fit for purpose is a phrase hundreds of years old. Saw it written in correspondence between a soldier and his mother during the English Civil War re his living quarters.  And I wonder why noone wants to go out for a beer with me...

So it wasn't the mexicans then??

Shame on you bogball

I've been reading this with great interest over the past few days and thought I'd throw my thoughts down.

The basic problem is, and always will be money. The Water Service or whatever you want to call them now are run by and for people whose main motivation is cash. Same in Scotland, same in England (haven't worked in Wales so can't comment). As someone has said previously, there is a chronic lack of investment in infrastructure and to put the cherry on the cake the capital maintenance is poor to nonexistent.

IMHO the main issues are:

*Leakage (strictly speaking the wrong term but it'll do the job), basically unaccounted for water. The main problem with this is that there are a phenomenal number of illegal connections in NI. We have cattle troughs (for one example) overflowing 365 days that are connected to the mains and if they aren't overflowing they have invariably pipes above ground that go bang as soon as the thaw hits. Does the owner care? No chance, they aren't paying for it
*Metering. As a rule (bar a few private companies in England), the metering UK wide and beyond is woeful. Once authorities start transferring water and supplementing between reservoirs the meters are useless, which as a result means you can't strategically target leaks. Again there is big money spent on Framework Suppliers (the biggest waste of money in history), meters are installed by private companies, who commission them, get handed back to Water Company, get a 1hour presentation, water company pay no money on maintenance, meters stop working, no one knows how to use them, investigation awarded to private company, private company suggest new meters, and the charade starts all over again
*Water Quality. The price we pay for getting the water quality we do, is to increase flow rates to get the water from treatment to tap quickly. Water is better as a result, but pipes are smaller. When something happens, network can't cope and the only location that gets fed water is the burst.
*Accountability. KPI's etc have been tried before, and can help to an extent but its like anything in that people find a way around it very quickly, and work the system. If I say a leak has to be sorted within 24hours, the powers that be soon figure that if we shut the water down that will stop the leak and then it is classed as "in repair".
I have worked on a job where a competitor came in at 33% less. The authority asked us to match the price, we couldn't and warned them that other party could not deliver for that price either. Competitor done it, ends up costing both parties over 120% of our original cost. 6months later I am sitting across the desk from the idiot who awarded the job, preaching about how our costs are again 33% too high. When we pointed out the final cost, yer man hadn't even heard about it going over budget cause too many people were covering their ass

I could go on and on with all the things that are wrong with the system but the main one is, and always will be money.

Also this such and such has to go, his position is untenable cr*p is part of the problem. No one wants to make a decision in case they get the blame, and so no proper decisions get made. People are employed in high positions that have absolutely no clue how water networks, demand, pressure etc works and laughably they are deciding how money is spent. When in reality they shouldn't be allowed to lift their head from their own spreadsheet.

Rant finished

Quote from: el_cuervo_fc on January 03, 2011, 03:06:48 PM
So it wasn't the mexicans then??

Shame on you bogball

should've known that shower couldn't come up with something that catchy, apologies!

Quote from: Skiddybadoo on January 03, 2011, 01:11:30 PM

Quote from: Bogball XV on January 02, 2011, 12:37:11 AM
When did that phrase 'fit for purpose' enter into common usage?  Was it some of the free state politicians talking about the dept of finance down here about 2 months ago - I don't like it at all tbh, is it even gramatically correct?  Can the nordies not invent their own catchphrases?

And I wonder why noone wants to go out for a beer with me...

Maybe he's just interested in English the history of the english civil war too?  It could be a perfectly innocent pint and a bit of a chat about Prince Rupert and Marston Moor etc, if he drops the hand though.....

Quote from: wanderer on January 03, 2011, 09:00:16 PM
I've been reading this with great interest over the past few days and thought I'd throw my thoughts down.

The basic problem is, and always will be money. The Water Service or whatever you want to call them now are run by and for people whose main motivation is cash. Same in Scotland, same in England (haven't worked in Wales so can't comment). As someone has said previously, there is a chronic lack of investment in infrastructure and to put the cherry on the cake the capital maintenance is poor to nonexistent.

IMHO the main issues are:

*Leakage (strictly speaking the wrong term but it'll do the job), basically unaccounted for water. The main problem with this is that there are a phenomenal number of illegal connections in NI. We have cattle troughs (for one example) overflowing 365 days that are connected to the mains and if they aren't overflowing they have invariably pipes above ground that go bang as soon as the thaw hits. Does the owner care? No chance, they aren't paying for it
*Metering. As a rule (bar a few private companies in England), the metering UK wide and beyond is woeful. Once authorities start transferring water and supplementing between reservoirs the meters are useless, which as a result means you can't strategically target leaks. Again there is big money spent on Framework Suppliers (the biggest waste of money in history), meters are installed by private companies, who commission them, get handed back to Water Company, get a 1hour presentation, water company pay no money on maintenance, meters stop working, no one knows how to use them, investigation awarded to private company, private company suggest new meters, and the charade starts all over again
*Water Quality. The price we pay for getting the water quality we do, is to increase flow rates to get the water from treatment to tap quickly. Water is better as a result, but pipes are smaller. When something happens, network can't cope and the only location that gets fed water is the burst.
*Accountability. KPI's etc have been tried before, and can help to an extent but its like anything in that people find a way around it very quickly, and work the system. If I say a leak has to be sorted within 24hours, the powers that be soon figure that if we shut the water down that will stop the leak and then it is classed as "in repair".
I have worked on a job where a competitor came in at 33% less. The authority asked us to match the price, we couldn't and warned them that other party could not deliver for that price either. Competitor done it, ends up costing both parties over 120% of our original cost. 6months later I am sitting across the desk from the idiot who awarded the job, preaching about how our costs are again 33% too high. When we pointed out the final cost, yer man hadn't even heard about it going over budget cause too many people were covering their ass

I could go on and on with all the things that are wrong with the system but the main one is, and always will be money.

Also this such and such has to go, his position is untenable cr*p is part of the problem. No one wants to make a decision in case they get the blame, and so no proper decisions get made. People are employed in high positions that have absolutely no clue how water networks, demand, pressure etc works and laughably they are deciding how money is spent. When in reality they shouldn't be allowed to lift their head from their own spreadsheet.

Rant finished

great post and nail on the head is hit with the word MONEY. I know it's the arguement with %99.99999 of every problem in the world, but No.1 in this case

Quote from: wanderer on January 03, 2011, 09:00:16 PM
I've been reading this with great interest over the past few days and thought I'd throw my thoughts down.

The basic problem is, and always will be money. The Water Service or whatever you want to call them now are run by and for people whose main motivation is cash. Same in Scotland, same in England (haven't worked in Wales so can't comment). As someone has said previously, there is a chronic lack of investment in infrastructure and to put the cherry on the cake the capital maintenance is poor to nonexistent.

IMHO the main issues are:

*Leakage (strictly speaking the wrong term but it'll do the job), basically unaccounted for water. The main problem with this is that there are a phenomenal number of illegal connections in NI. We have cattle troughs (for one example) overflowing 365 days that are connected to the mains and if they aren't overflowing they have invariably pipes above ground that go bang as soon as the thaw hits. Does the owner care? No chance, they aren't paying for it*Metering. As a rule (bar a few private companies in England), the metering UK wide and beyond is woeful. Once authorities start transferring water and supplementing between reservoirs the meters are useless, which as a result means you can't strategically target leaks. Again there is big money spent on Framework Suppliers (the biggest waste of money in history), meters are installed by private companies, who commission them, get handed back to Water Company, get a 1hour presentation, water company pay no money on maintenance, meters stop working, no one knows how to use them, investigation awarded to private company, private company suggest new meters, and the charade starts all over again
*Water Quality. The price we pay for getting the water quality we do, is to increase flow rates to get the water from treatment to tap quickly. Water is better as a result, but pipes are smaller. When something happens, network can't cope and the only location that gets fed water is the burst.
*Accountability. KPI's etc have been tried before, and can help to an extent but its like anything in that people find a way around it very quickly, and work the system. If I say a leak has to be sorted within 24hours, the powers that be soon figure that if we shut the water down that will stop the leak and then it is classed as "in repair".
I have worked on a job where a competitor came in at 33% less. The authority asked us to match the price, we couldn't and warned them that other party could not deliver for that price either. Competitor done it, ends up costing both parties over 120% of our original cost. 6months later I am sitting across the desk from the idiot who awarded the job, preaching about how our costs are again 33% too high. When we pointed out the final cost, yer man hadn't even heard about it going over budget cause too many people were covering their ass

I could go on and on with all the things that are wrong with the system but the main one is, and always will be money.

Also this such and such has to go, his position is untenable cr*p is part of the problem. No one wants to make a decision in case they get the blame, and so no proper decisions get made. People are employed in high positions that have absolutely no clue how water networks, demand, pressure etc works and laughably they are deciding how money is spent. When in reality they shouldn't be allowed to lift their head from their own spreadsheet.

Rant finished

Agricultural land owners, publicans & some commercial properties have been paying for water for a long time now, so that part of your rant doesnt add up imo.

Quote from: mournerambler on January 03, 2011, 11:07:58 PM

Quote from: wanderer on January 03, 2011, 09:00:16 PM
I've been reading this with great interest over the past few days and thought I'd throw my thoughts down.

The basic problem is, and always will be money. The Water Service or whatever you want to call them now are run by and for people whose main motivation is cash. Same in Scotland, same in England (haven't worked in Wales so can't comment). As someone has said previously, there is a chronic lack of investment in infrastructure and to put the cherry on the cake the capital maintenance is poor to nonexistent.

IMHO the main issues are:

*Leakage (strictly speaking the wrong term but it'll do the job), basically unaccounted for water. The main problem with this is that there are a phenomenal number of illegal connections in NI. We have cattle troughs (for one example) overflowing 365 days that are connected to the mains and if they aren't overflowing they have invariably pipes above ground that go bang as soon as the thaw hits. Does the owner care? No chance, they aren't paying for it*Metering. As a rule (bar a few private companies in England), the metering UK wide and beyond is woeful. Once authorities start transferring water and supplementing between reservoirs the meters are useless, which as a result means you can't strategically target leaks. Again there is big money spent on Framework Suppliers (the biggest waste of money in history), meters are installed by private companies, who commission them, get handed back to Water Company, get a 1hour presentation, water company pay no money on maintenance, meters stop working, no one knows how to use them, investigation awarded to private company, private company suggest new meters, and the charade starts all over again
*Water Quality. The price we pay for getting the water quality we do, is to increase flow rates to get the water from treatment to tap quickly. Water is better as a result, but pipes are smaller. When something happens, network can't cope and the only location that gets fed water is the burst.
*Accountability. KPI's etc have been tried before, and can help to an extent but its like anything in that people find a way around it very quickly, and work the system. If I say a leak has to be sorted within 24hours, the powers that be soon figure that if we shut the water down that will stop the leak and then it is classed as "in repair".
I have worked on a job where a competitor came in at 33% less. The authority asked us to match the price, we couldn't and warned them that other party could not deliver for that price either. Competitor done it, ends up costing both parties over 120% of our original cost. 6months later I am sitting across the desk from the idiot who awarded the job, preaching about how our costs are again 33% too high. When we pointed out the final cost, yer man hadn't even heard about it going over budget cause too many people were covering their ass

I could go on and on with all the things that are wrong with the system but the main one is, and always will be money.

Also this such and such has to go, his position is untenable cr*p is part of the problem. No one wants to make a decision in case they get the blame, and so no proper decisions get made. People are employed in high positions that have absolutely no clue how water networks, demand, pressure etc works and laughably they are deciding how money is spent. When in reality they shouldn't be allowed to lift their head from their own spreadsheet.

Rant finished

Agricultural land owners, publicans & some commercial properties have been paying for water for a long time now, so that part of your rant doesnt add up imo.

Read it again. Its those who have made illegal unknown and unmetered connections to the network that wanderer is referring to. I see this every working day where we are laying replacement mains and you get all sorts of approaches from farmers and landowners.

Quote from: wanderer on January 03, 2011, 09:00:16 PM
I've been reading this with great interest over the past few days and thought I'd throw my thoughts down.

The basic problem is, and always will be money. The Water Service or whatever you want to call them now are run by and for people whose main motivation is cash. Same in Scotland, same in England (haven't worked in Wales so can't comment). As someone has said previously, there is a chronic lack of investment in infrastructure and to put the cherry on the cake the capital maintenance is poor to nonexistent.

IMHO the main issues are:

*Leakage (strictly speaking the wrong term but it'll do the job), basically unaccounted for water. The main problem with this is that there are a phenomenal number of illegal connections in NI. We have cattle troughs (for one example) overflowing 365 days that are connected to the mains and if they aren't overflowing they have invariably pipes above ground that go bang as soon as the thaw hits. Does the owner care? No chance, they aren't paying for it
*Metering. As a rule (bar a few private companies in England), the metering UK wide and beyond is woeful. Once authorities start transferring water and supplementing between reservoirs the meters are useless, which as a result means you can't strategically target leaks. Again there is big money spent on Framework Suppliers (the biggest waste of money in history), meters are installed by private companies, who commission them, get handed back to Water Company, get a 1hour presentation, water company pay no money on maintenance, meters stop working, no one knows how to use them, investigation awarded to private company, private company suggest new meters, and the charade starts all over again
*Water Quality. The price we pay for getting the water quality we do, is to increase flow rates to get the water from treatment to tap quickly. Water is better as a result, but pipes are smaller. When something happens, network can't cope and the only location that gets fed water is the burst.
*Accountability. KPI's etc have been tried before, and can help to an extent but its like anything in that people find a way around it very quickly, and work the system. If I say a leak has to be sorted within 24hours, the powers that be soon figure that if we shut the water down that will stop the leak and then it is classed as "in repair".
I have worked on a job where a competitor came in at 33% less. The authority asked us to match the price, we couldn't and warned them that other party could not deliver for that price either. Competitor done it, ends up costing both parties over 120% of our original cost. 6months later I am sitting across the desk from the idiot who awarded the job, preaching about how our costs are again 33% too high. When we pointed out the final cost, yer man hadn't even heard about it going over budget cause too many people were covering their ass

I could go on and on with all the things that are wrong with the system but the main one is, and always will be money.

Also this such and such has to go, his position is untenable cr*p is part of the problem. No one wants to make a decision in case they get the blame, and so no proper decisions get made. People are employed in high positions that have absolutely no clue how water networks, demand, pressure etc works and laughably they are deciding how money is spent. When in reality they shouldn't be allowed to lift their head from their own spreadsheet.

Rant finished

Wanderer,

An excellent post, I agree with the majority of it. The last paragrapg in particular is the root cause of the problem, as it is with most civil servant/public bodies. The NIW engineering and technical staff, without naming individuals who we probably both have to deal with, are well capable of doing there jobs but those who hold the purse strings havent a baldies notion.

mournerambler, as oakleafgael said I'm chatting about the non metered connections and trust me there are a lot. I have been offered countless bribes to reconnect dodgy connections onto new pipes, and on one occasion threatened with "the boys" paying us a visit if we didn't comply.
Commercial metering is a must in my opinion for a large variety of reasons, mainly being you pay for what you get. Also if NI is in line with England and Scotland, business customers get somewhere between 2 weeks and a months notice for planned work which will affect their supply. This makes it a nightmare for contractors, cause even if they get ahead on a job they have to stand waiting on a set date to make a connection.
People think that drinkable water is a birth right, and treat the people that supply it with disdain in my experience. Throughout the boom people have generated a huge sense of their own importance, and you can't win in the infrastructure game. One half see work being done near their land as a cash cow, and claim all sorts of damage etc. The rest don't want the road closed, don't want the pavement closed, don't want work going on during working hours as it causes traffic, don't want work during night as its noisy, don't want work in fields as its their "best field" i.e. $$$, don't want work in parkland cause they have no where to walk the dog  :-[
As oakleafgael said, there are loads of good people who do their best but there are at least the same number if not more deadwood. A lot of people have gotten to high positions through qualifications rather than working from the bottom up. As a result you have people with no clue instructing people who know what they are doing.

The great amusement of all this is the politicians complaining about lack of communication etc. Talk about pot and kettle. I've even seen someone on the news saying that it could take 10 years to update the infrastructure, what a joke, it might take that with unlimited funds but the reality is it would be 15-20+

Quote from: oakleafgael on January 03, 2011, 11:11:13 PM

Quote from: mournerambler on January 03, 2011, 11:07:58 PM

Quote from: wanderer on January 03, 2011, 09:00:16 PM
I've been reading this with great interest over the past few days and thought I'd throw my thoughts down.

The basic problem is, and always will be money. The Water Service or whatever you want to call them now are run by and for people whose main motivation is cash. Same in Scotland, same in England (haven't worked in Wales so can't comment). As someone has said previously, there is a chronic lack of investment in infrastructure and to put the cherry on the cake the capital maintenance is poor to nonexistent.

IMHO the main issues are:

*Leakage (strictly speaking the wrong term but it'll do the job), basically unaccounted for water. The main problem with this is that there are a phenomenal number of illegal connections in NI. We have cattle troughs (for one example) overflowing 365 days that are connected to the mains and if they aren't overflowing they have invariably pipes above ground that go bang as soon as the thaw hits. Does the owner care? No chance, they aren't paying for it*Metering. As a rule (bar a few private companies in England), the metering UK wide and beyond is woeful. Once authorities start transferring water and supplementing between reservoirs the meters are useless, which as a result means you can't strategically target leaks. Again there is big money spent on Framework Suppliers (the biggest waste of money in history), meters are installed by private companies, who commission them, get handed back to Water Company, get a 1hour presentation, water company pay no money on maintenance, meters stop working, no one knows how to use them, investigation awarded to private company, private company suggest new meters, and the charade starts all over again
*Water Quality. The price we pay for getting the water quality we do, is to increase flow rates to get the water from treatment to tap quickly. Water is better as a result, but pipes are smaller. When something happens, network can't cope and the only location that gets fed water is the burst.
*Accountability. KPI's etc have been tried before, and can help to an extent but its like anything in that people find a way around it very quickly, and work the system. If I say a leak has to be sorted within 24hours, the powers that be soon figure that if we shut the water down that will stop the leak and then it is classed as "in repair".
I have worked on a job where a competitor came in at 33% less. The authority asked us to match the price, we couldn't and warned them that other party could not deliver for that price either. Competitor done it, ends up costing both parties over 120% of our original cost. 6months later I am sitting across the desk from the idiot who awarded the job, preaching about how our costs are again 33% too high. When we pointed out the final cost, yer man hadn't even heard about it going over budget cause too many people were covering their ass

I could go on and on with all the things that are wrong with the system but the main one is, and always will be money.

Also this such and such has to go, his position is untenable cr*p is part of the problem. No one wants to make a decision in case they get the blame, and so no proper decisions get made. People are employed in high positions that have absolutely no clue how water networks, demand, pressure etc works and laughably they are deciding how money is spent. When in reality they shouldn't be allowed to lift their head from their own spreadsheet.

Rant finished

Agricultural land owners, publicans & some commercial properties have been paying for water for a long time now, so that part of your rant doesnt add up imo.

Read it again. Its those who have made illegal unknown and unmetered connections to the network that wanderer is referring to. I see this every working day where we are laying replacement mains and you get all sorts of approaches from farmers and landowners.

Point taken, judgement somewhat clouded by the devils buttermilk  ;D

Quote from: MW on January 01, 2011, 07:18:09 PM

Quote from: delboy on December 31, 2010, 12:14:28 AM

I could have swore the rates was made up of the district rates which is the council basically and the regional rates which amongst other things pays towards water and sewage.

Heres a quote from a local council website

"Regional Rate - what is it used for?

The Regional Rate is set by Central Government and local Councils HAVE NO control over this. It is the same for all 26 Councils and is used to contribute to the cost of providing a range of services such as: - Education, Housing, Social Services, Roads, Water and Sewerage."

It would at least seem that there might still be some confusion on the matter.

The regional rate simply goes into the NI Executive's "pot", and it only makes up 5% of the total of the Executive's "income". As it's not hypothecated it could be said to be a contribution towards any of the services funded by the Executive.

QuoteAlso metering strikes me as highly regressive, despite being a small family that would probably not suffer from it my natural sense of fair play would be irked by seeing a struggling large but low income family paying a large proportion of their income to pay for a fundamental commidity and human right (i don't think thats fair).

I think paying for a utility based on the amount of useage is inherently fair.

Would you expect some people to have their electricity, or oil, or gas subsidised by other people who are using less?

So in reality we don't know who much of the rates is going towards the water, there is confusion on the matter which is all i claimed.

You already have social energy tariffs for vunerable people who suffer from fuel poverty. Water is a special case as its a basic human right as stated in UN regulations, payment should be based also on the ability to pay not just a regressive tax on usage end off, try to think beyond your own wallet, you might find it more rewarding in the long run. 

Quote from: Take Your Points on January 04, 2011, 12:25:24 PM
You would find that as much of the rates goes to NI Water as road and fuel tax goes to the roads.  Very little money collected actually goes to targeted schemes it all goes to the big pot.

And all goes to the MOD the bomb the shite outa other countries

Lawrence McKenzie, chief exec, resigns. Conor Murphy will be getting it tight now.

Quote from: Minder on January 04, 2011, 10:30:53 PM
Lawrence McKenzie, chief exec, resigns. Conor Murphy will be getting it tight now.

Not a chance.

Not with the might of the DUP behind him.  ;)

Quote from: orangeman on January 04, 2011, 11:11:08 PM

Quote from: Minder on January 04, 2011, 10:30:53 PM
Lawrence McKenzie, chief exec, resigns. Conor Murphy will be getting it tight now.

Not a chance.

Not with the might of the DUP behind him.  ;)

I don't think he will resign, but in a normal political environment he would probably be forced into it.

TYP, 300 redundancies is the tip of the iceberg in NIW.

I'm sure that when i was there they were talking about their workforce being halved from moving to GoCo in 2007 to now. Which is some going.
(maybe oakleafgael etc can confirm)

They also set the target of becoming the #1 Utility company in the uk by 2014. Good luck with that!

I accept the vast majority of those gone were deadwood. But i suspect many good employees who could hack it in the private sector, went, leaving a pretty big brain drain.

I deal with NI water almost every day and i have to say majority of them are hard working and decent lads, as someone stated it the top of the ladder where all the problems are. They are also so under staffed it's not funny (the sections i deal with) any person who either left or took redundancy was not replaced and the ordinary foot solider had his work load doubled, now i do accept that they get exceptional holidays and conditions that most in the private sector do not get but blame the chiefs not the Indians...

As for the topic way back about the "Quick Thaw", i don't know what a quick thaw had to do with anything. When water freezes it expands, when it expands thats when the damage is done. when the thaw happens and the pipe contracts the pipe is already damaged so i can't see how thawing in a few hours rather than a week would make any difference ???

Quote from: illdecide on January 05, 2011, 12:38:28 PM
I deal with NI water almost every day and i have to say majority of them are hard working and decent lads, as someone stated it the top of the ladder where all the problems are. They are also so under staffed it's not funny (the sections i deal with) any person who either left or took redundancy was not replaced and the ordinary foot solider had his work load doubled, now i do accept that they get exceptional holidays and conditions that most in the private sector do not get but blame the chiefs not the Indians...

As for the topic way back about the "Quick Thaw", i don't know what a quick thaw had to do with anything. When water freezes it expands, when it expands thats when the damage is done. when the thaw happens and the pipe contracts the pipe is already damaged so i can't see how thawing in a few hours rather than a week would make any difference ???

If it were a slow thaw the same number of problems would have occured but maybe over a larger period of time leading to a smaller back log/less pressure on staff, plumbers and call centers.

Fair enough :-\

Quotei can't see how thawing in a few hours rather than a week would make any difference

I think the problem is the freezing of the ground outside the pipe. This changes shape quickly when there is a sudden thaw, breaking the pipe.

Quote from: Take Your Points on January 04, 2011, 10:34:21 PM
If you can't be bothered to the above article.........

Yet, knowing the risks, the DUP/Sinn Féin-led administration did little to improve the situation.

There was some limited investment in the water system in order to avoid a European Union fine, but overall the emphasis was on economies. NIW has absorbed 300 redundancies in the past year, and was ordered to cut planned investment by about £100m by the regulator.

NIW handed back £21m to Stormont at year end.

Elsewhere in the UK, investment in the water infrastructure was achieved by selling off the water companies and charging rates. Instead of privatising NIW, a government-owned company that cannot borrow money against its assets or float shares like its English equivalents, Murphy wants to nationalise it.

The Northern Ireland executive is committed not to introduce water rates until at least 2014, a crowd pleaser introduced in its first budget. It has now become a shibboleth and is touted as evidence that devolution works. As a result, NIW has to be subsidised from other assembly budgets to the tune of £500m a year. From next year, capital charges of an additional £400m a year can be deducted from the Northern Ireland block grant by the Treasury unless the government agrees to forgo the sum, which seems unlikely.

This is a subject that nobody likes to mention, but it has been brought into sharp focus by the failure of the water system so close to next May's assembly election. The proximity of that election is also why Sinn Féin and the DUP have reacted with a mix of denial and pulpit thumping.

It should have been Murphy walking.

If this was any other western democracy the Minister would have to resign, there does not seem to be any Ministerial Responsibility (an oxymoron?) at Stormont, have any Ministers resigned from the executive in over 10yrs for a departmental failure?

Quote from: Doogie Browser on January 05, 2011, 05:27:43 PM
If this was any other western democracy the Minister would have to resign, there does not seem to be any Ministerial Responsibility (an oxymoron?) at Stormont, have any Ministers resigned from the executive in over 10yrs for a departmental failure?

Accountability isn't a trait you'll find near Stormont. It's always the fault of someone/something else rather than their own ineptitude.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 05, 2011, 05:40:35 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on January 05, 2011, 05:27:43 PM
If this was any other western democracy the Minister would have to resign, there does not seem to be any Ministerial Responsibility (an oxymoron?) at Stormont, have any Ministers resigned from the executive in over 10yrs for a departmental failure?

Accountability isn't a trait you'll find near Stormont. It's always the fault of someone/something else rather than their own ineptitude.

How is this man still on the payroll considering what he was up to?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13750963 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13750963)

Quote from: johnneycool on June 13, 2011, 03:54:12 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 05, 2011, 05:40:35 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on January 05, 2011, 05:27:43 PM
If this was any other western democracy the Minister would have to resign, there does not seem to be any Ministerial Responsibility (an oxymoron?) at Stormont, have any Ministers resigned from the executive in over 10yrs for a departmental failure?

Accountability isn't a trait you'll find near Stormont. It's always the fault of someone/something else rather than their own ineptitude.

How is this man still on the payroll considering what he was up to?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13750963 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13750963)

Civil servant...almost impossible to sack these days.

Quote from: AQMP on June 13, 2011, 05:18:54 PM

Quote from: johnneycool on June 13, 2011, 03:54:12 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 05, 2011, 05:40:35 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on January 05, 2011, 05:27:43 PM
If this was any other western democracy the Minister would have to resign, there does not seem to be any Ministerial Responsibility (an oxymoron?) at Stormont, have any Ministers resigned from the executive in over 10yrs for a departmental failure?

Accountability isn't a trait you'll find near Stormont. It's always the fault of someone/something else rather than their own ineptitude.

How is this man still on the payroll considering what he was up to?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13750963 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13750963)

Civil servant...almost impossible to sack these days.

I wouldn't be shocked if he has been demoted on the same pay as his previous post.