The Advanced Mark

[Dreadnought]

Just as an aside.

Your annoyance at "arbitrary lines" is perhaps OTT.

All field sports are founded upon arbitrary lines being drawn to signal the boundaries of the playing area.

I'm surely not alone in being in awe at the awareness, skill and perception shown by rugby players and NFL players - on both sides of the ball - when the presence of a sideline (or endline, or 20m line, or 10 yard imaginary line) can influence the current play.

Neither of these sports see arbitrary lines as a problem, just a necessary mechanism for keeping the game moving. Why not Gaelic football?

I don't think it is OTT. You are saying once you pass a 45 you can't return. That literally is drawing an arbitrary line or barrier you can't return past and I cannot see in any way how this helps the game other than players and coaches finding a way to make it a mess for a turnover

"In any way"?

You honestly can't see how the back court rule would reward teams for pressing up and pushing the opposition out?

 I do think you've settled on a position before considering it.

Absolutely I've thought of it. It rewards pressing like you say, in a U. So everyone drops back immediately to the 45 line to crowd the area. Where's the space for attacks with so many back? And then you swarm a fella who steps a foot inside the 45? Why over reward defence and not try and get ways to open space and get lads to attack instead?

It's not devised to over-reward defensive pressure. It's devised as a deterrent to the endless recycling of possession through skill-less handpassing into acres of space; the single greatest blight on Gaelic Football.

The value of possession currently dominates that of territory. Until this is addressed our game will continue to be an abomination.

But you just said it'd reward defensive pressure. that's my point about the law of unintended consequence. You'd try fix something with a major rule change, and you'd make it far worse instead

[Derryman forever]

Derryman forever, it's not a cheap shot at all.

This board goes back forever and a day.

Look at threads on rule changes from the early noughties and it's Donegal ones saying there's nothing wrong with the game. Look at the late noughties threads and it's all Dublin ones telling us that we should get better at football instead of trying to change the rules. The past few years it's Derry wans telling us that football is as good to watch now as it ever was.

With all due respect, I don't think people from your county are currently objective about the state of Gaelic Football. This isn't a criticism of Derry btw... you folks didn't create this mess and it's absolute credit that instead of whinging about it, you've caught up.

But football is shite. Absolute shite. That's our sport and it's absolute shite.

Its begrudgery nothing more.

Derry are nothing special and wont be winning Sam anytime soon.
But almost every game does have moments of magic and you see these moments from previous games being used to say you never see this anymore.
Just recently I think it was Cahir O'kane highlighted impossible scores from deep in the pocket that are never tried anymore.
The following week Niall Toner pinned one from an even more Impossible angle.  But nobody highlighted it.

I advise that people actually sit down and watch the great games of yesterday with a critical mind.
Take the 1994 Ulster semi final Down and Derry. Hailed as one of the great games of the 90s. Perhaps it was.  I think it was ordinary enough, but was it better than last years Semifinal with Kerry and Derry?

This sort of discussion kind of reminds me of the Robin Williams and Matt Damon chat in Good Will Hunting.

Dismiss the quality of the 1994 match all you like.  Dismiss old football all you like.

Stats can tell you football has never been better.

But anybody who has experienced both the championship going experience of the 90s-00s, and that of today, and claims to prefer the latter, is either a liar or a wind up merchant.

So you are only allowed to reference past games if you consider them an example of how bad todays games are?

When your answer is "your a liar or wind up merchant" , you have lost the argument and don't deserve interaction with.

[Dreadnought]

Jarlth has plans to look at the game of football and change its negativity

Going to be difficult

I vowed never to type this up again. But I can't help it.

The fundamental problem with football is that the value of possession greatly outweighs the value of territory.

So instead of the rule makers looking at gimmicks - like the advanced mark - they need to look at the fundamental structures of the game.

Bring in the half court rule (no returning over either 45) and bring in a substantial penalty for breaking the rule (45m free from hand or the ground).

There will be a period of adjustment when (particular club) teams who've spent the past 10 years protecting the D, are afraid to leave the D at all. But it'll slowly dawn on everyone that when the opposition press you, the best thing you can do is move the ball quickly into the spaces left in their half. And I before long they'll understand that if they don't score every time it doesn't matter - as the ball will be returned to them much more often under these principles.

Under these rules Id just coach my team to play Mourinho ball. Take an early lead. Then simply retreat all 15 of our players into my own half. If the opposing team are down 3/4 points they can't just sit back. They must advance into our half. And once they do they're trapped in it. Win a turnover and break into the oceans of space present in their half because all of my team and a large proportion of theirs are in my half.

This would ingrain the current extra-time tactic of mass retreat by the leading team.

Someone gets it...

[thewobbler]

Jarlth has plans to look at the game of football and change its negativity

Going to be difficult

I vowed never to type this up again. But I can't help it.

The fundamental problem with football is that the value of possession greatly outweighs the value of territory.

So instead of the rule makers looking at gimmicks - like the advanced mark - they need to look at the fundamental structures of the game.

Bring in the half court rule (no returning over either 45) and bring in a substantial penalty for breaking the rule (45m free from hand or the ground).

There will be a period of adjustment when (particular club) teams who've spent the past 10 years protecting the D, are afraid to leave the D at all. But it'll slowly dawn on everyone that when the opposition press you, the best thing you can do is move the ball quickly into the spaces left in their half. And I before long they'll understand that if they don't score every time it doesn't matter - as the ball will be returned to them much more often under these principles.

Under these rules Id just coach my team to play Mourinho ball. Take an early lead. Then simply retreat all 15 of our players into my own half. If the opposing team are down 3/4 points they can't just sit back. They must advance into our half. And once they do they're trapped in it. Win a turnover and break into the oceans of space present in their half because all of my team and a large proportion of theirs are in my half.

This would ingrain the current extra-time tactic of mass retreat by the leading team.

Someone gets it...

That they might. What I mean is that they might well be right and I'm barking up the wrong tree.

But I'd ask this

1. What is actually different between this proposed version of "Mourinho ball" and the one that currently takes place? They're following exactly the same principles to me.

2. How many men do you actually think you would need to press into the opposition 45 to push them out? Be honest. Let's say 10. Maybe 11 against a highly skilled possession team. You won't need 15, that's for sure.  Yeah that would leave oceans of space in your own half. But unless your opponents leave men up too, then there shouldn't be that overlap described.

[Milltown Row2]

Surely just leave defenders in defence forwards stay up front and midfielders can roam the pitch?

See that's roughly how I think things would pan out with the half court rule. Some teams would stick to counter attacking football, which is no bad thing in itself so long as they don't have elongated possession before pressing go, but even the most rigid defensive structure would need at least one totem full forward as the plan b / blind alley option. For if they don't have that, they're just going to keep giving the pressing team the ball back.

Mine, from a referee's perspective is easier to manage

How would it be?
How are you to know who is playing backs, midfield or forwards? Teams are making positional switches all the time, subs come in with 27 on the back and you have to keep track of who is making his way forward etc? That sounds very difficult.

His idea that once the ball goes over a certain line it is not allowed to go back over it is surely much easier managed?

For me its the numbers on their backs, 1 to 7 are defenders 8 and 9 are midfielders and the others are forwards. If subs come on they replace either position and its a simple tick in our numbers page on the sheet.

If teams want to make a positional change they have to wait for a break in play and do it then

Flooding defence and flooding attack or teams holding up the ball in front of a wall of 'defenders' is really annoying to watch and pretty boring for the players also.

I've watched so many games at club level, players are actually passing someone with the ball so they can get into position to set up their defence! No attempt is made to tackle they guy, that's just one aspect.

If these footballing brains come up with ideas, they will be as difficult to navigate as any other rule change has been at the start

[Duine Inteacht Eile]

So a referee would be expected to continually count the number of players in a given section of the field and then ascertain whether all of those players are permitted in that section. For the entire game. Along with everything else.

I don't think that would be one bit manageable.


That's not me agreeing with wobbler's idea by the way. I think his idea completely rewards those creating the problem.

But it would definitely be easier for a referee to manage.

[Cavan19]

Surely just leave defenders in defence forwards stay up front and midfielders can roam the pitch?

See that's roughly how I think things would pan out with the half court rule. Some teams would stick to counter attacking football, which is no bad thing in itself so long as they don't have elongated possession before pressing go, but even the most rigid defensive structure would need at least one totem full forward as the plan b / blind alley option. For if they don't have that, they're just going to keep giving the pressing team the ball back.

Mine, from a referee's perspective is easier to manage

How would it be?
How are you to know who is playing backs, midfield or forwards? Teams are making positional switches all the time, subs come in with 27 on the back and you have to keep track of who is making his way forward etc? That sounds very difficult.

His idea that once the ball goes over a certain line it is not allowed to go back over it is surely much easier managed?

For me its the numbers on their backs, 1 to 7 are defenders 8 and 9 are midfielders and the others are forwards. If subs come on they replace either position and its a simple tick in our numbers page on the sheet.

If teams want to make a positional change they have to wait for a break in play and do it then

Flooding defence and flooding attack or teams holding up the ball in front of a wall of 'defenders' is really annoying to watch and pretty boring for the players also.

I've watched so many games at club level, players are actually passing someone with the ball so they can get into position to set up their defence! No attempt is made to tackle they guy, that's just one aspect.

If these footballing brains come up with ideas, they will be as difficult to navigate as any other rule change has been at the start

There is nothing simple about that no 20 could be coming on for number 15 and going wing back and number 7 moving into the forwards. Like to see how that would be managed with maybe 10 subs on the pitch near the end of a game.

[Armagh18]

Surely just leave defenders in defence forwards stay up front and midfielders can roam the pitch?

See that's roughly how I think things would pan out with the half court rule. Some teams would stick to counter attacking football, which is no bad thing in itself so long as they don't have elongated possession before pressing go, but even the most rigid defensive structure would need at least one totem full forward as the plan b / blind alley option. For if they don't have that, they're just going to keep giving the pressing team the ball back.

Mine, from a referee's perspective is easier to manage

How would it be?
How are you to know who is playing backs, midfield or forwards? Teams are making positional switches all the time, subs come in with 27 on the back and you have to keep track of who is making his way forward etc? That sounds very difficult.

His idea that once the ball goes over a certain line it is not allowed to go back over it is surely much easier managed?

For me its the numbers on their backs, 1 to 7 are defenders 8 and 9 are midfielders and the others are forwards. If subs come on they replace either position and its a simple tick in our numbers page on the sheet.

If teams want to make a positional change they have to wait for a break in play and do it then

Flooding defence and flooding attack or teams holding up the ball in front of a wall of 'defenders' is really annoying to watch and pretty boring for the players also.

I've watched so many games at club level, players are actually passing someone with the ball so they can get into position to set up their defence! No attempt is made to tackle they guy, that's just one aspect.

If these footballing brains come up with ideas, they will be as difficult to navigate as any other rule change has been at the start

There is nothing simple about that no 20 could be coming on for number 15 and going wing back and number 7 moving into the forwards. Like to see how that would be managed with maybe 10 subs on the pitch near the end of a game.

It's a daft idea and never going to happen (I hope)

[J70]

Derryman forever, it's not a cheap shot at all.

This board goes back forever and a day.

Look at threads on rule changes from the early noughties and it's Donegal ones saying there's nothing wrong with the game. Look at the late noughties threads and it's all Dublin ones telling us that we should get better at football instead of trying to change the rules. The past few years it's Derry wans telling us that football is as good to watch now as it ever was.

With all due respect, I don't think people from your county are currently objective about the state of Gaelic Football. This isn't a criticism of Derry btw... you folks didn't create this mess and it's absolute credit that instead of whinging about it, you've caught up.

But football is shite. Absolute shite. That's our sport and it's absolute shite.

We were, but in our defense, it wasn't an obvious certainty (at least to me early on!) that the game would evolve in the manner in did following Jim's lead. I think back to our thrilling semis against Cork and Dublin, when they played open and allowed us to annihilate them on the break. By the 2016 Ulster Final, the writing was on the wall for me (that was like a pair of slow, giant sumo wrestlers going at it, rescued for Tyrone in injury time by three worldie points) and its only gotten worse. When we held the ball for the last 90 seconds of normal time in the 2022 Ulster Final, instead of trying to go for the winning score, I was pretty much done.

I read Jarlath's interview on GAA.ie and his plans for a root and branch look at how the game is played. Hope he succeeds, because I'm finding it hard to even watch Donegal these days. Aside from the freak of nature that is David Clifford, how many GAA stars could be considered among the top sports people in the country? As Burns alludes to when talking about skillful forwards being basically rendered obsolete, without his physique to go with his incredible skillset, would even Clifford be up there?

[Wildweasel74]

Watched plenty of All-Ireland finals back past 40yrs recently, you be lucky to get 1 in 4 of them, been a good game, 1 in 10 a outstanding game. Back then, half the lads back in the 80's, got the ball and just kicked it as far as they can. Now u watching  and going, what the hell they at, work it up the field

[imtommygunn]

Derryman forever, it's not a cheap shot at all.

This board goes back forever and a day.

Look at threads on rule changes from the early noughties and it's Donegal ones saying there's nothing wrong with the game. Look at the late noughties threads and it's all Dublin ones telling us that we should get better at football instead of trying to change the rules. The past few years it's Derry wans telling us that football is as good to watch now as it ever was.

With all due respect, I don't think people from your county are currently objective about the state of Gaelic Football. This isn't a criticism of Derry btw... you folks didn't create this mess and it's absolute credit that instead of whinging about it, you've caught up.

But football is shite. Absolute shite. That's our sport and it's absolute shite.

We were, but in our defense, it wasn't an obvious certainty (at least to me early on!) that the game would evolve in the manner in did following Jim's lead. I think back to our thrilling semis against Cork and Dublin, when they played open and allowed us to annihilate them on the break. By the 2016 Ulster Final, the writing was on the wall for me (that was like a pair of slow, giant sumo wrestlers going at it, rescued for Tyrone in injury time by three worldie points) and its only gotten worse. When we held the ball for the last 90 seconds of normal time in the 2022 Ulster Final, instead of trying to go for the winning score, I was pretty much done.

I read Jarlath's interview on GAA.ie and his plans for a root and branch look at how the game is played. Hope he succeeds, because I'm finding it hard to even watch Donegal these days. Aside from the freak of nature that is David Clifford, how many GAA stars could be considered among the top sports people in the country? As Burns alludes to when talking about skillful forwards being basically rendered obsolete, without his physique to go with his incredible skillset, would even Clifford be up there?

Dara Canavan an interesting case study in this. I still think he's surviving ok. the da was obviously absolutely fantastic and it's an interesting question as to whether or not he would survive in today's game (course he would I would say) but the son is a chip off the old block so I think he will be the test of it.

Clifford's physique a massive help yes.

[lenny]

Derryman forever, it's not a cheap shot at all.

This board goes back forever and a day.

Look at threads on rule changes from the early noughties and it's Donegal ones saying there's nothing wrong with the game. Look at the late noughties threads and it's all Dublin ones telling us that we should get better at football instead of trying to change the rules. The past few years it's Derry wans telling us that football is as good to watch now as it ever was.

With all due respect, I don't think people from your county are currently objective about the state of Gaelic Football. This isn't a criticism of Derry btw... you folks didn't create this mess and it's absolute credit that instead of whinging about it, you've caught up.

But football is shite. Absolute shite. That's our sport and it's absolute shite.

We were, but in our defense, it wasn't an obvious certainty (at least to me early on!) that the game would evolve in the manner in did following Jim's lead. I think back to our thrilling semis against Cork and Dublin, when they played open and allowed us to annihilate them on the break. By the 2016 Ulster Final, the writing was on the wall for me (that was like a pair of slow, giant sumo wrestlers going at it, rescued for Tyrone in injury time by three worldie points) and its only gotten worse. When we held the ball for the last 90 seconds of normal time in the 2022 Ulster Final, instead of trying to go for the winning score, I was pretty much done.

I read Jarlath's interview on GAA.ie and his plans for a root and branch look at how the game is played. Hope he succeeds, because I'm finding it hard to even watch Donegal these days. Aside from the freak of nature that is David Clifford, how many GAA stars could be considered among the top sports people in the country? As Burns alludes to when talking about skillful forwards being basically rendered obsolete, without his physique to go with his incredible skillset, would even Clifford be up there?

Clifford is arguably the best of all time. Current stars who would be among the top sports people in the country would surely include Conor Glass, Darragh Canavan, Shane Mcguigan, Con OCallaghan. A lot of people criticise the modern game saying there's no room for flair and marquee forwards don't get a chance but in recent games we've seen Con O'C score 3.4, Shane McGuigan 0.11 and canavan 1.5. There possibly are rules which could be tinkered with slightly but there's still a great game there and the crowds are still turning out to see the games.

[Milltown Row2]

So a referee would be expected to continually count the number of players in a given section of the field and then ascertain whether all of those players are permitted in that section. For the entire game. Along with everything else.

I don't think that would be one bit manageable.


That's not me agreeing with wobbler's idea by the way. I think his idea completely rewards those creating the problem.

But it would definitely be easier for a referee to manage.

So tell me how do we stop 15 players behind the ball? Or stop negative football?

That said I'd have played a third midfielder or player in the line between that and our 45 when managing our hurlers when we moved up, as getting hidings were demoralising

[Derryman forever]

Derryman forever, it's not a cheap shot at all.

This board goes back forever and a day.

Look at threads on rule changes from the early noughties and it's Donegal ones saying there's nothing wrong with the game. Look at the late noughties threads and it's all Dublin ones telling us that we should get better at football instead of trying to change the rules. The past few years it's Derry wans telling us that football is as good to watch now as it ever was.

With all due respect, I don't think people from your county are currently objective about the state of Gaelic Football. This isn't a criticism of Derry btw... you folks didn't create this mess and it's absolute credit that instead of whinging about it, you've caught up.

But football is shite. Absolute shite. That's our sport and it's absolute shite.

We were, but in our defense, it wasn't an obvious certainty (at least to me early on!) that the game would evolve in the manner in did following Jim's lead. I think back to our thrilling semis against Cork and Dublin, when they played open and allowed us to annihilate them on the break. By the 2016 Ulster Final, the writing was on the wall for me (that was like a pair of slow, giant sumo wrestlers going at it, rescued for Tyrone in injury time by three worldie points) and its only gotten worse. When we held the ball for the last 90 seconds of normal time in the 2022 Ulster Final, instead of trying to go for the winning score, I was pretty much done.

I read Jarlath's interview on GAA.ie and his plans for a root and branch look at how the game is played. Hope he succeeds, because I'm finding it hard to even watch Donegal these days. Aside from the freak of nature that is David Clifford, how many GAA stars could be considered among the top sports people in the country? As Burns alludes to when talking about skillful forwards being basically rendered obsolete, without his physique to go with his incredible skillset, would even Clifford be up there?

Clifford is arguably the best of all time. Current stars who would be among the top sports people in the country would surely include Conor Glass, Darragh Canavan, Shane Mcguigan, Con OCallaghan. A lot of people criticise the modern game saying there's no room for flair and marquee forwards don't get a chance but in recent games we've seen Con O'C score 3.4, Shane McGuigan 0.11 and canavan 1.5. There possibly are rules which could be tinkered with slightly but there's still a great game there and the crowds are still turning out to see the games.

I do believe limiting the number of players allowed to tackle the ball carrier at any one time would make a vast difference to the game.
It would give talented ball carriers and forwards a fair chance to  display their skills and would give confidence to the centre field players that a pass into their forwards will have a chance of reaping reward.
It is pitiful to see 3 and 4 players malling a forward and winning a free from it.

[clonian]

Watched plenty of All-Ireland finals back past 40yrs recently, you be lucky to get 1 in 4 of them, been a good game, 1 in 10 a outstanding game. Back then, half the lads back in the 80's, got the ball and just kicked it as far as they can. Now u watching  and going, what the hell they at, work it up the field

I agree there was some poor matches especially in the 80s. It got better in the 90s and into the 00s imho. The thing that existing in football back then that made it interesting is jeopardy. Forget about the David Clifford and Con show at the all ireland level, go to a junior or intermediate club match where the teams are trying to copy cat the senior teams and keep the ball - it's completely unwatchable.