The Advanced Mark

Started by Angelo, December 14, 2020, 12:25:39 PM

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Angelo

Quote from: lenny on December 15, 2020, 07:43:35 PM
Quote from: Main Street on December 15, 2020, 07:18:08 PM
Quote from: general_lee on December 15, 2020, 04:45:14 PM
Lads it's f**king shite and clearly none of yous have kicked a ball in the last ten years. Refs are bad enough at applying the rules as it is without burdening them with this garbage. Maybe at county level it isn't as noticeable (or else you're all just blind) but at club level it adds absolutely nothing and gives forwards a massive advantage without any incentive that encourages forward play. Rewarding 25m chest high passes is bullshit
Quote from: lenny on December 15, 2020, 07:01:51 PM
Quote from: general_lee on December 15, 2020, 04:45:14 PM
Lads it's f**king shite and clearly none of yous have kicked a ball in the last ten years. Refs are bad enough at applying the rules as it is without burdening them with this garbage. Maybe at county level it isn't as noticeable (or else you're all just blind) but at club level it adds absolutely nothing and gives forwards a massive advantage without any incentive that encourages forward play. Rewarding 25m chest high passes is bullshit

What's destroying the game at the moment is how good teams are at keeping possession and how reluctant they are to give a pass with any degree of risk. The result is endless side to side passing around the middle of the field. I've seen teams keep the ball for 4 or 5 minutes without getting the ball inside the 45 metre line and the other team just sit back waiting for them to come in. That has made numerous games unwatchable over the last couple of seasons. This season has been different because teams have an alternative offensive tactic. Teams like Cavan and Tipperary have come from nowhere to win their province playing a direct game with much less boring possession rubbish. I don't think they'd have been anywhere near as direct but for the inside mark.
Yes but this is the advance mark thread.

I'd agree with the general, it's shite and doesn't add anything to the game but I haven't seen it used very much this year in the championship games or have I missed something?

Tipp kicked loads of long, high balls into their full forwards v Cork and kept 3 men inside most of the time. They didn't win too many marks but the prospect of a mark meant this was a worthwhile tactic. It was also very effective. Cavan used the same tactic in a number of their games. They generally kept at least one big man like galligan or madden inside. Again it didn't always lead to a mark but the prospect of a mark encouraged them to use that tactic.

No it's the prospect of goals which is why Tipp kicked it in long, not marks.

Sweeney has a 3 inch height advantage of his man and Mayo play completely wide open, one on one at the back. This was exposed against Tyrone in the league where they got caught out a number of times over the top.

Teams were back playing direct before the advanced mark came into being. Most of the marks I have seen have been clipped balls played to unmarked men just inside the 45 yard line. The majority of the marks I've seen in this year's Championship have been from laborious, slow buildups and eventually a player comes free inside the 45 yard line and it's kicked to him. They haven't been as a result of direct play where teams have won the ball, looked up and hit the full forward line early.

Look at Donegal it was the likes of McGonigle and McFadden - their midfielders who were winning marks and scoring them.
GAA FUNDING CHEATS CHEAT US ALL

manfromdelmonte

Quote from: Angelo on December 16, 2020, 09:39:25 AM
Quote from: lenny on December 15, 2020, 07:43:35 PM
Quote from: Main Street on December 15, 2020, 07:18:08 PM
Quote from: general_lee on December 15, 2020, 04:45:14 PM
Lads it's f**king shite and clearly none of yous have kicked a ball in the last ten years. Refs are bad enough at applying the rules as it is without burdening them with this garbage. Maybe at county level it isn't as noticeable (or else you're all just blind) but at club level it adds absolutely nothing and gives forwards a massive advantage without any incentive that encourages forward play. Rewarding 25m chest high passes is bullshit
Quote from: lenny on December 15, 2020, 07:01:51 PM
Quote from: general_lee on December 15, 2020, 04:45:14 PM
Lads it's f**king shite and clearly none of yous have kicked a ball in the last ten years. Refs are bad enough at applying the rules as it is without burdening them with this garbage. Maybe at county level it isn't as noticeable (or else you're all just blind) but at club level it adds absolutely nothing and gives forwards a massive advantage without any incentive that encourages forward play. Rewarding 25m chest high passes is bullshit

What's destroying the game at the moment is how good teams are at keeping possession and how reluctant they are to give a pass with any degree of risk. The result is endless side to side passing around the middle of the field. I've seen teams keep the ball for 4 or 5 minutes without getting the ball inside the 45 metre line and the other team just sit back waiting for them to come in. That has made numerous games unwatchable over the last couple of seasons. This season has been different because teams have an alternative offensive tactic. Teams like Cavan and Tipperary have come from nowhere to win their province playing a direct game with much less boring possession rubbish. I don't think they'd have been anywhere near as direct but for the inside mark.
Yes but this is the advance mark thread.

I'd agree with the general, it's shite and doesn't add anything to the game but I haven't seen it used very much this year in the championship games or have I missed something?

Tipp kicked loads of long, high balls into their full forwards v Cork and kept 3 men inside most of the time. They didn't win too many marks but the prospect of a mark meant this was a worthwhile tactic. It was also very effective. Cavan used the same tactic in a number of their games. They generally kept at least one big man like galligan or madden inside. Again it didn't always lead to a mark but the prospect of a mark encouraged them to use that tactic.

No it's the prospect of goals which is why Tipp kicked it in long, not marks.

Sweeney has a 3 inch height advantage of his man and Mayo play completely wide open, one on one at the back. This was exposed against Tyrone in the league where they got caught out a number of times over the top.

Teams were back playing direct before the advanced mark came into being. Most of the marks I have seen have been clipped balls played to unmarked men just inside the 45 yard line. The majority of the marks I've seen in this year's Championship have been from laborious, slow buildups and eventually a player comes free inside the 45 yard line and it's kicked to him. They haven't been as a result of direct play where teams have won the ball, looked up and hit the full forward line early.

Look at Donegal it was the likes of McGonigle and McFadden - their midfielders who were winning marks and scoring them.
Yep and Tipp fluffed their two chances.
I doubt Dublin will.

themac_23

Hate the advanced mark rule with a passion, completely ruins fluidity in the forward line, 90% of the time now players will call a mark if they catch it, even if not in a scoring position because there is maybe a defender right tight to them, its a cop out for a forward they no longer have to beat a man. it has slowed the best part of the game down, nothing better in the game than seeing a corner forward win a ball sell a dummy, turn the man and sail one over the bar. now they just take that mark and set themselves. also the fact that if a forward makes a clean catch and doesn't take a mark but defender cant touch him for basically 4 steps completely takes away the art of defending if a forward gets the ball in front of you, honestly, of all the terrible rules there have been this is by far and away the worst it really has to go

TabClear

Quote from: themac_23 on December 16, 2020, 11:35:01 AM
Hate the advanced mark rule with a passion, completely ruins fluidity in the forward line, 90% of the time now players will call a mark if they catch it, even if not in a scoring position because there is maybe a defender right tight to them, its a cop out for a forward they no longer have to beat a man. it has slowed the best part of the game down, nothing better in the game than seeing a corner forward win a ball sell a dummy, turn the man and sail one over the bar. now they just take that mark and set themselves. also the fact that if a forward makes a clean catch and doesn't take a mark but defender cant touch him for basically 4 steps completely takes away the art of defending if a forward gets the ball in front of you, honestly, of all the terrible rules there have been this is by far and away the worst it really has to go

Agree with this. If you dont call the mark immediately you should be fair game

screenexile

Quote from: Angelo on December 15, 2020, 12:08:41 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 15, 2020, 12:04:18 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 15, 2020, 11:13:33 AM
Quote from: lenny on December 14, 2020, 07:29:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 14, 2020, 02:42:47 PM
They obviously want to encourage more kicking into the forwards.

Personally, I don't see much wrong with it. Accurate kicking and catching are skills we want to reward.

Totally agree, the advance mark has been a big success this year. Teams like Cavan and tipp have been successful playing a much more direct game than we've seen in previous seasons. This was surely as a result of the advanced mark. Mayo have been more direct than normal also and have used Aidan o Shea at full forward for good parts of games. It's been exciting to watch.

It has in its f**k. Mayo have used Aidan O'Shea at full forward in the past as he's a good target man, counties had been doing this before the mark. Team had already started to go much more direct again in the last few years before the mark.

It encourages teams to flood back now, majority of marks seem to be called somewhere between the 21 yard line and 45 yard line as teams have dropped back.

The only thing the advanced mark serves to do is dilute the quality of forward player. A forward no longer looks to sell a dummy or take his man on after winning a ball because he gets a free shot a goal.

It also is really unfair on a defender, part of the quality of a good defender is someone who is an excellent shadower, he might allow you get the ball but he's going to make sure you're going nowhere with it after.

You do know that not all kicks forward result in marks and that forwards still have to do these things??

Also your last part is nonsense. That "shadower" thing is part of the modern game when your defence is flooded let the forward win it and pass him off to a forward coming back to defend. It used to be you had to stop your man from getting the ball by getting out in front or reading the play and this is partly getting back to that.

Personally I'm not a massive fan of it but I'd like to see it play out for a year or 2 before I'd pass final judgment. I've yet to see a team really use it as a prolonged defined tactic so it would be interesting if that were to happen.

They have to all those things a lot less now.

It was never about stop your defender getting the ball. I have heard some amount of nonsense on here but this takes the biscuit. Serious question, have you ever played the game? The first that would be roared at a corner back from the sideline when a ball went to his man was don't foul. If you are marking a good player sometimes you have no option but to let him win that ball and just try to stop him from doing anything with it. The hallmarks of a top class defender is someone who knows when to go for the ball and when to let his man get the ball and hold him up.

It's clear to me that you never played the game. Shadowing has always been a key part in what makes a good defender.

Oh I'm mistaken I obviously didn't play the game for 25 years and coach the last 15 then... but keep you working away posting absolute drivel all over the place  ::) ::) ::)

Itchy

I like the advanced mark and I think it encourages teams to get their heads up and look for the long ball. It also encourages teams to get people into the half back line that can kick the ball. You can argue this was already coming naturally but I don't buy that myself.

thewobbler

Quote from: Itchy on December 16, 2020, 03:00:04 PM
I like the advanced mark and I think it encourages teams to get their heads up and look for the long ball. It also encourages teams to get people into the half back line that can kick the ball. You can argue this was already coming naturally but I don't buy that myself.

Maybe so but I still think the desired effect could be achieved more organically than through this big swipe at the heart of Gaelic Games.

——

I mean who in their right mind would want to be a corner back when the forward can "earn" an unopposed strike for a point, for displaying a skill so elementary as not fumbling a simple pass to him? Put simply, it's not fair.

——

What the rule makers want to achieve is the restoration of territorial tactics to something at least worth considering by teams, who have spent the past decade focused on possession tactics.

But Instead of looking only at the effect, the rule makers should look for the cause of possession-football dominance.

And the basic reason for it is that the current rules make it more rewarding than territory, particularly so if playing against a possession-tactics team. Basically, if you keep kicking the ball into 50:50 situations, against a well drilled possession team, you can expect to spend the vast majority of the match without the ball. Which makes it impossible to win.

And the reason why it's so easy, and therefore so rewarding, to play possession football is that there are no limits or boundaries to it within the rules; if after circling the ball at your own 45 for 5 minutes, you wish to kick it back to your goalkeeper, there is no deterrent.

The common refrain from the stands is "push up". But the basic reality is that when a player at midfield can choose to ping the ball into any of the 4 corners, then it's just not possible to remain continually pushed up with play; the ball travels 60m in 2 seconds. It's 4-5 times quicker than a player... and it doesn't tire as easily.

The solution, as broached here multiple times, is that if it was no longer possible for a team to pass the ball back across either 65, then the defending team would be given a real incentive to push up: for once they closed off the opposition half, they know the ball won't be simply kicked back over their heads in a few seconds time.

In one simple swoop, possession football becomes much more difficult, much less attractive. The direct result  of this change, is that territorial football becomes naturally more attractive. That shouldn't need explained, but to summarise: the penalty for getting boxed in on the 65 is innately much less appealing than one for losing the ball on the opposition 13. So you will do what you can to prevent it happening unnecessarily.

And you know the lovely thing for corner backs? Even though high balls might rain down upon them, they don't get unfairly punished because their opponent simply caught a ball.

This rule change needs an experimental period. Just to see.






Angelo

Yeah, it's got to go. Along with the water breaks.
GAA FUNDING CHEATS CHEAT US ALL

StPatsAbu

Quote from: Angelo on December 19, 2020, 07:18:03 PM
Yeah, it's got to go. Along with the water breaks.
Along with Cluxton. Everyone is sick looking at that hanger on.

lenny

Quote from: Itchy on December 16, 2020, 03:00:04 PM
I like the advanced mark and I think it encourages teams to get their heads up and look for the long ball. It also encourages teams to get people into the half back line that can kick the ball. You can argue this was already coming naturally but I don't buy that myself.

The one in the second half where Stephen Coen took the mark is exactly why it is a good rule. Dublin had 14 players back inside their own 45. Normally in this situation you could expect a team to continually go side to side and keep possession for a few minutes or take a pot shot. With this rule they were able to get their head up and play a brilliant 35 meter pinpoint pass into Coen's chest. It gives teams a potent weapon against mass defences. If the pass isn't perfect the defending team more than likely can set up a fast counter attack.

Angelo

Quote from: lenny on December 19, 2020, 08:09:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 16, 2020, 03:00:04 PM
I like the advanced mark and I think it encourages teams to get their heads up and look for the long ball. It also encourages teams to get people into the half back line that can kick the ball. You can argue this was already coming naturally but I don't buy that myself.

The one in the second half where Stephen Coen took the mark is exactly why it is a good rule. Dublin had 14 players back inside their own 45. Normally in this situation you could expect a team to continually go side to side and keep possession for a few minutes or take a pot shot. With this rule they were able to get their head up and play a brilliant 35 meter pinpoint pass into Coen's chest. It gives teams a potent weapon against mass defences. If the pass isn't perfect the defending team more than likely can set up a fast counter attack.

It's exactly why it isn't a good rule. It was a pass into a player who hadn't a chance of scoring into that situation. So teams are now trying to play illogical passes to create points from dead balls. He was faced the wrong way and surrounded by Dublin players. It makes a mockery of the game.

It takes the skill out of the game. You win a ball and the you stop, you don't try and take the challenges, beat a man, sell him a dummy, take a shot on under pressure. Instead you stop, put your hand up, wait for everyone to back off and take a shot at goal.

It really devalues any skill of the game. I look at the how it would have destroyed the joy we would have seen from guys like Linden, McCartney, Canavan, Mulligan, O'Neill, McDonnell, Jamie Clarke over the years if this rule had been in place.

Now I know Derry don't produce skillful forwards so maybe that is why you are all for it but for me it screws the defender and takes away any sort of quality forward play.

GAA FUNDING CHEATS CHEAT US ALL

sid waddell

Get rid

This new proposed rule where a penalty will be given for "denial of a goalscoring opportunity" is more eejitry

These new rules always start with bullshit talk about "rewarding" things or "punishing" things

"Rewarding" clean catching, "punishing" cynicism

"Ah shure it'd be great to see that catch rewarded"

But that's the game, you don't and shouldn't get rewarded for a catch, it's not Aussie Rules, and Paddy Small's speciality of darting out to collect a 10 yard pass and getting a point for it does nothing for the game, it's just boring

Leave "rewarding" and "punishing" things for rearing children


Angelo

Scores that would likely never have happend without the advanced mark:

https://youtu.be/-p2FAGgp3pg
GAA FUNDING CHEATS CHEAT US ALL

Main Street

Quote from: screenexile on December 16, 2020, 12:16:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 15, 2020, 12:08:41 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 15, 2020, 12:04:18 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 15, 2020, 11:13:33 AM
Quote from: lenny on December 14, 2020, 07:29:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 14, 2020, 02:42:47 PM
They obviously want to encourage more kicking into the forwards.

Personally, I don't see much wrong with it. Accurate kicking and catching are skills we want to reward.

Totally agree, the advance mark has been a big success this year. Teams like Cavan and tipp have been successful playing a much more direct game than we've seen in previous seasons. This was surely as a result of the advanced mark. Mayo have been more direct than normal also and have used Aidan o Shea at full forward for good parts of games. It's been exciting to watch.

It has in its f**k. Mayo have used Aidan O'Shea at full forward in the past as he's a good target man, counties had been doing this before the mark. Team had already started to go much more direct again in the last few years before the mark.

It encourages teams to flood back now, majority of marks seem to be called somewhere between the 21 yard line and 45 yard line as teams have dropped back.

The only thing the advanced mark serves to do is dilute the quality of forward player. A forward no longer looks to sell a dummy or take his man on after winning a ball because he gets a free shot a goal.

It also is really unfair on a defender, part of the quality of a good defender is someone who is an excellent shadower, he might allow you get the ball but he's going to make sure you're going nowhere with it after.

You do know that not all kicks forward result in marks and that forwards still have to do these things??

Also your last part is nonsense. That "shadower" thing is part of the modern game when your defence is flooded let the forward win it and pass him off to a forward coming back to defend. It used to be you had to stop your man from getting the ball by getting out in front or reading the play and this is partly getting back to that.

Personally I'm not a massive fan of it but I'd like to see it play out for a year or 2 before I'd pass final judgment. I've yet to see a team really use it as a prolonged defined tactic so it would be interesting if that were to happen.

They have to all those things a lot less now.

It was never about stop your defender getting the ball. I have heard some amount of nonsense on here but this takes the biscuit. Serious question, have you ever played the game? The first that would be roared at a corner back from the sideline when a ball went to his man was don't foul. If you are marking a good player sometimes you have no option but to let him win that ball and just try to stop him from doing anything with it. The hallmarks of a top class defender is someone who knows when to go for the ball and when to let his man get the ball and hold him up.

It's clear to me that you never played the game. Shadowing has always been a key part in what makes a good defender.

Oh I'm mistaken I obviously didn't play the game for 25 years and coach the last 15 then... but keep you working away posting absolute drivel all over the place  ::) ::) ::)
15 years?  Doire Colmcille?

trileacman

Quote from: thewobbler on December 16, 2020, 05:56:20 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 16, 2020, 03:00:04 PM
I like the advanced mark and I think it encourages teams to get their heads up and look for the long ball. It also encourages teams to get people into the half back line that can kick the ball. You can argue this was already coming naturally but I don't buy that myself.

Maybe so but I still think the desired effect could be achieved more organically than through this big swipe at the heart of Gaelic Games.

——

I mean who in their right mind would want to be a corner back when the forward can "earn" an unopposed strike for a point, for displaying a skill so elementary as not fumbling a simple pass to him? Put simply, it's not fair.

——

What the rule makers want to achieve is the restoration of territorial tactics to something at least worth considering by teams, who have spent the past decade focused on possession tactics.

But Instead of looking only at the effect, the rule makers should look for the cause of possession-football dominance.

And the basic reason for it is that the current rules make it more rewarding than territory, particularly so if playing against a possession-tactics team. Basically, if you keep kicking the ball into 50:50 situations, against a well drilled possession team, you can expect to spend the vast majority of the match without the ball. Which makes it impossible to win.

And the reason why it's so easy, and therefore so rewarding, to play possession football is that there are no limits or boundaries to it within the rules; if after circling the ball at your own 45 for 5 minutes, you wish to kick it back to your goalkeeper, there is no deterrent.

The common refrain from the stands is "push up". But the basic reality is that when a player at midfield can choose to ping the ball into any of the 4 corners, then it's just not possible to remain continually pushed up with play; the ball travels 60m in 2 seconds. It's 4-5 times quicker than a player... and it doesn't tire as easily.

The solution, as broached here multiple times, is that if it was no longer possible for a team to pass the ball back across either 65, then the defending team would be given a real incentive to push up: for once they closed off the opposition half, they know the ball won't be simply kicked back over their heads in a few seconds time.

In one simple swoop, possession football becomes much more difficult, much less attractive. The direct result  of this change, is that territorial football becomes naturally more attractive. That shouldn't need explained, but to summarise: the penalty for getting boxed in on the 65 is innately much less appealing than one for losing the ball on the opposition 13. So you will do what you can to prevent it happening unnecessarily.

And you know the lovely thing for corner backs? Even though high balls might rain down upon them, they don't get unfairly punished because their opponent simply caught a ball.

This rule change needs an experimental period. Just to see.

There was a time I railed against it as a suggestion but I'd actually favour a restriction on the fistpass in the current game. Years ago defenders weren't just comfortably enough in possession to hold onto the ball for long periods in their own half or about midfield. Nowadays defenders are as accomplished as forwards at retaining possession, throwing dummies, beating men that it's just to easy to retain possession. I'd make a rule that you can't fistpass the ball in your own half. In one fell swoop you punish teams for playing about with the ball in your own half, passing back to the keeper and reward quick transition to the forwards. Likewise simply just dropping deep would be punished because when you'd turn the ball over you'd have to try to and move it up to the opposition half where it was easier to keep possession.

I dislike a no back pass rule. Surely if your leading a game you'd just camp your full team inside your half/65/whatever and wait for the team to cross. If you're leading then the longer the opposition piss about in their own half the better. The more players you've back the less incentive for them to attack or play risky kick passes and you know when they do cross you can simply press up with your spare players and force the technical foul or turnover. A no back pass rule to me punishes a team for moving the ball forward from defence to attack, that seems incompatible with the tactics we are trying to promote.
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