Hunger strike commemoration at a GAA ground

[Donnellys Hollow]

fair enough. for me, growing up in a town that is 79% protestant and 100% intimidating to catholics the gaa was a way of maintaining our identity. we had no pitch, were openly attacked on many occasions, had threats made to our families and this all when i was an under 16. you can realize that this debate is different for us in the north. with the best will in the world there is nothing sickens us more than moralizing southerners telling us to get over it. you might like to look at the fact it was michael bloody collins dropped us in this shite in the first place!

Not strictly true. Had Collins been alive when the Boundary Commission was convened in 1925, he would have not been bullied like Eoin MacNeill was. MacNeill simply wasn't cut out for the job and Collins would have hammered out a better deal and the map of Ireland would look very different.

The North wasn't really a big issue in the Treaty debates because people believed that the inclusion of the Boundary Commission in the clauses of the Treaty would address this issue.

the fact that there was a boundary commission at all was due to the deal collins signed in london after being thoroughly outsmarted by llyod george.  the rest is just conjecture. stick to facts.

That is absolute nonsense. The Irish delegation were well aware travelling to London that a republic was never going to be on the table. This was clear from the truce negotiations.

As for Collins being outsmarted by Lloyd George - Collins didn't even lead the delegation, Arthur Griffith did. They were hoping for some sort of External Association for Ireland and it was Robert Barton as a solicitor who did most of the talking for the Irish side. The Treaty was the best that could have been hoped for. The IRA was already on its knees in Munster and G-Division were getting closer and closer to getting GHQ in Dublin. Had the Treaty been rejected the British would have crushed the IRA within months. The full-force of British artillery would have flushed out the flying columns in the hills of West Cork, Kerry, Limerick and Tipperary. Resistance elsewhere in the country outside of the IRA strongholds in Munster would have been futile. The Treaty afforded Ireland the opportunity to avoid this bloodshed and achieve further concessions through political negotiation.

The north was not an issue during the Treaty debates in the Mansion House because the Boundary Commission, had it functioned correctly would have solved this issue. It was believed that the alteration of the border would have left the north as too small a political entity to exist on its own and it would eventually be subsumed into the Irish Free State. However, Eoin MacNeill was a poor choice as he lacked conviction and he eventually resigned from the Commission after some of its contents were leaked to the press. Had Collins been alive in 1925 he would have undoubtedly hammered out a better deal because the British had a grudging respect for him. The mystique and aura that surrounded Collins would have afforded him some bargaining room. The madness of the Civil War had denied him the opportunity to build on the Treaty though so it is grossly unfair to suggest that Collins had sold Nationalists in the north down the river in 1921.

[Mongander]

Typical, just because someone disagrees with you, at least you don't shoot people for that anymore, or do you?

ah yes, because me calling you an idiot for your incoherent 'argument' is so much worse than you calling me an idiot after claiming i said something which i clearly did not...sound logic.
i notice you failed to answer any of the actual questions posed in my response...google/wiki running a bit slow for you today?


shoot people?

sure did you not hear about decommisioning!!!

[Mongander]

Hmmmm ... tell that to Jean McConville's family. Or to the families of the hundreds of other Catholics they murdered and "disappeared". Some defending.

ah yes, the "hundreds"...
...hard to beat a concrete argument/statistic like that.
well done.

[Son_of_Sam]

Ya & I can tell you anyone calling themselves the IRA after 1922 are terrorist criminals in my mind.

...and what part of the six counties are you from mo chara?
The Bogside?
The Falls?
South Armagh?
South Derry?
Somewhere in Tyrone perhaps?

The Provisional IRA were the defenders of the Catholic population since their emergence in 1969 when people were being burnt out of their homes whilst the Free State 'Government' "stood idly by" Was this a Free State Government in exile, because only an idiot would not know that the Free State did not exist in 1969.How an army born to defend an oppressed and under seige native community can be branded "terrorist" is beyond me...


Because of all the pubs, offices & streets they blew up killing people & destroying property. Thats why.

The Irish people voted for the Treaty, the Irish people voted for The Good Friday Agreement.

yeah...where did i say they didn't?
what is your point here?!?

I am not spouting Thatcher I am saying that Terrorism is a criminal act, if she said the same, then that means that wow 2 people in a planet with 6 billion people once said the same obvious thing.

it was quoted before, and i'll say it again, "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter".
Without those who gave up their lives on the 1981 Hunger Strike there would never have been such a thing as political status for prisoners - republican or otherwise.

as for being in the same camp with Maggie, whatever makes you happy..it just was not so "obvious" for myself and the majority of my community during the Troubles...

Im not in the same camp as Maggie Thatcher, the British, the Tory party, etc. etc. camp 

[longrunsthefox]

Ulster Council GAA statement..

Following recent reports of events at Galbally GAA Club, County Tyrone, the Central Council of the GAA have asked the Ulster Council GAA to establish the facts of the occurrences and the involvement of the Association in these events, if any. This process, the Council have already set in train and will issue a full statement of our findings in due course. The Ulster Council have had no direct or indirect involvement in this affair to date.

The GAA is a non party political organisation that is protective of its Rules and Constitution. The Association at County, Provincial and Central level were not aware of the events at Galbally GAA Club until after the events had taken place. The Ulster Council GAA are working to establish the exact circumstances surrounding these events that took place at Cappagh, Co. Tyrone on Sunday 16th August.
The GAA has clear policies in relation to the use of its property for non-sporting events detailed in our Rules which outlines the role of Central Council in respect to the control of property owned or controlled by a constituent unit of the GAA. The Association is a non party political and anti sectarian organisation whose position has been determined democratically by GAA Congress.
blah, blah...

FFS.... is this all to appease Nelson McCausland and his cohorts who would close every GAA ground in the country if they could? It  would be scapegoating of the worst kind if Galbally are punished as loads of clubs hold tournaments to IRA volunteers etc. Also a lot of clubs in Tyrone mentioned the Galbally commemoration in their club notes... should they all be punished as well? If Galbally get punished Tyrone clubs should make some form of protest action. 

[redhugh]

OK I might be out here on my own about this one, but where these people not convicted terrorists? Alot of people consider terrorism a form of criminality. So you could say that criminals should not have special status!

great stuff!
someone with a Michael Collins avatar spouting Maggie Thatcherisms.

Just what a GAA forum needs.
well done muppet.

Ya & I can tell you anyone calling themselves the IRA after 1922 are terrorist criminals in my mind. The Irish people voted for the Treaty, the Irish people voted for The Good Friday Agreement. I am not spouting Thatcher I am saying that Terrorism is a criminal act, if she said the same, then that means that wow 2 people in a planet with 6 billion people once said the same obvious thing.
[/q
Surely it all depends on your definition of terrorism? Pre '22 the IRA are'nt terrorists yet after '22 they are? How so?

[blewuporstuffed]

Ulster Council GAA statement..

Following recent reports of events at Galbally GAA Club, County Tyrone, the Central Council of the GAA have asked the Ulster Council GAA to establish the facts of the occurrences and the involvement of the Association in these events, if any. This process, the Council have already set in train and will issue a full statement of our findings in due course. The Ulster Council have had no direct or indirect involvement in this affair to date.

The GAA is a non party political organisation that is protective of its Rules and Constitution. The Association at County, Provincial and Central level were not aware of the events at Galbally GAA Club until after the events had taken place. The Ulster Council GAA are working to establish the exact circumstances surrounding these events that took place at Cappagh, Co. Tyrone on Sunday 16th August.
The GAA has clear policies in relation to the use of its property for non-sporting events detailed in our Rules which outlines the role of Central Council in respect to the control of property owned or controlled by a constituent unit of the GAA. The Association is a non party political and anti sectarian organisation whose position has been determined democratically by GAA Congress.
blah, blah...

FFS.... is this all to appease Nelson McCausland and his cohorts who would close every GAA ground in the country if they could? It  would be scapegoating of the worst kind if Galbally are punished as loads of clubs hold tournaments to IRA volunteers etc. Also a lot of clubs in Tyrone mentioned the Galbally commemoration in their club notes... should they all be punished as well? If Galbally get punished Tyrone clubs should make some form of protest action.

have to agree with you there fox

[Hardy]

Hmmmm ... tell that to Jean McConville's family. Or to the families of the hundreds of other Catholics they murdered and "disappeared". Some defending.

ah yes, the "hundreds"...
...hard to beat a concrete argument/statistic like that.
well done.

Well, that's me told! Silly of me to try punching above my weight.

Just to help me out, though - how many would be an acceptable number, if "hundreds" is indeed wrong?

[Donnellys Hollow]

The Provisional IRA were the defenders of the Catholic population

Hmmmm ... tell that to Jean McConville's family. Or to the families of the hundreds of other Catholics they murdered and "disappeared". Some defending.

Indeed, or what had the murder of a guard in Adare got to do with the struggle for Irish freedom??

Similarly the bombing of Mountbatten's boat in Sligo which also claimed the life of an innocent 15yo. Especially considering recent documents released have shown that Mountbatten was in favour of Irish unification.

[Mongander]

Im not in the same camp as Maggie Thatcher, the British, the Tory party, etc. etc. camp 

why do you insist on quoting entire posts of mine, then refuse to answer any of the questions posed directly to you in your replies?!?


you can insist all you want that you're not in the same camp as Maggie Thatcher all you want, but as long as you keep repeating the same rhetoric as her you are only convincing yourself a chara.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

The Provisional IRA were the defenders of the Catholic population

Hmmmm ... tell that to Jean McConville's family. Or to the families of the hundreds of other Catholics they murdered and "disappeared". Some defending.

Indeed, or what had the murder of a guard in Adare got to do with the struggle for Irish freedom??

Similarly the bombing of Mountbatten's boat in Sligo which also claimed the life of an innocent 15yo. Especially considering recent documents released have shown that Mountbatten was in favour of Irish unification.

Enough already! Soloheadbeg was a great operation though, wasn't it?

[Mongander]

FFS.... is this all to appease Nelson McCausland and his cohorts who would close every GAA ground in the country if they could? It  would be scapegoating of the worst kind if Galbally are punished as loads of clubs hold tournaments to IRA volunteers etc. Also a lot of clubs in Tyrone mentioned the Galbally commemoration in their club notes... should they all be punished as well? If Galbally get punished Tyrone clubs should make some form of protest action.

have to agree with you there fox

good point well made...
...at least someone on this topic can argue a point.

[Donnellys Hollow]

The Provisional IRA were the defenders of the Catholic population

Hmmmm ... tell that to Jean McConville's family. Or to the families of the hundreds of other Catholics they murdered and "disappeared". Some defending.

Indeed, or what had the murder of a guard in Adare got to do with the struggle for Irish freedom??

Similarly the bombing of Mountbatten's boat in Sligo which also claimed the life of an innocent 15yo. Especially considering recent documents released have shown that Mountbatten was in favour of Irish unification.

Enough already! Soloheadbeg was a great operation though, wasn't it?

No Soloheadbeg was not a great operation - but neither were Kilmichael, Crossbarry etc.

Incidentally Soloheadbeg was not authorised by the Volunteer GHQ. Mulcahy in particular expressed his revulsion when he was informed of it. Breen and Treacy were loose cannons who believed that Sinn Féin were timid and would never achieve anything. Dan Breen himself was quoted that "if there had to be dead peelers at all, six would have created a better impression than two".

Them "peelers" were Irishmen born and bred like many of the other RIC and DMP members who were killed by the IRA during the Tan War.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

No Soloheadbeg was not a great operation - but neither were Kilmichael, Crossbarry etc.

In truth the War of Independence was no cleaner and no more noble than 1969-1997, but that's the way that wars are. And if you want to cast a critical eye over the operations of that period at this remove I'd prefer not to read about it on a sports board (I've heard it a thousand times before). I've already asked the Mods to move this thread to the General Discussion board, but they don't seem to be listening.

Hardy would have informants fraternising freely with operatives it would seem, which would be great for a few drunken nights, but would be totally useless as an effective way of prosecuting that war. And whether it sits comfortably with yourself and Hardy or not, the reality is that for that particular period, PIRA gave psychological succour to a good percentage of Republicans and Nationalists in a statelet that was severely inimical towards them.

[Donnellys Hollow]

No Soloheadbeg was not a great operation - but neither were Kilmichael, Crossbarry etc.

In truth the War of Independence was no cleaner and no more noble than 1969-1997, but that's the way that wars are. And if you want to cast a critical eye over the operations of that period at this remove I'd prefer not to read about it on a sports board (I've heard it a thousand times before). I've already asked the Mods to move this thread to the General Discussion board, but they don't seem to be listening.

Hardy would have informants fraternising freely with operatives it would seem, which would be great for a few drunken nights, but would be totally useless as an effective way of prosecuting that war. And whether it sits comfortably with yourself and Hardy or not, the reality is that for that particular period, PIRA gave psychological succour to a good percentage of Republicans and Nationalists in a statelet that was severely inimical towards them.

Exactly. Some will argue that they had a mandate from the 1918 election but how many of the population voted for war?? You only need to read the conflicting accounts of the Kilmichael Ambush to realise that the Tan War was as dirty as the recent northern troubles.