The Patronising Dublin Fan Thread

[Ed Ricketts]

Its hard to debate something when the various parties can't even agree what the problem is.

To me, this is simply an issue of Dublin finally getting their shit together and making their massive potential pool of talent count. When you have one third of the population of the country, you SHOULD be utterly dominating. Its to Dublin GAA's credit that they have finally arrived at this point after the decades of failure.

But it also makes the solution fairly simple now that they have finally started reaching their potential and sustaining that level. A split, so that the overwhelming advantage in terms of numbers that is driving this is at least somewhat mitigated. There's nothing much can be done about the convenience of being a Dublin player or fan, apart from maybe moving their AI semi-final or League Final to Thurles or Clones or wherever.

With a population pick no longer 5-10 times that of most of their rivals, THEN you can prattle on about organization and dedication. You can be as organized, dedicated and well-coached as you like, but if you don't have the same talented athletes to draw from, there's not much you can do when you come up against someone like Dublin.

The other counties are always going to be on some form of boom-bust cycle given their picks, no matter how organized and dedicated they are.

Splitting Dublin on the basis of their massive population would potentially not only be great for the association but great for Dublin . The status quo will eventually destroy Dublin. The brilliant development of quality players in Dublin, will
Mean that loads of great players will have little chance of playing at the top level. Dublin's unprecedented dominance has become boring for non-Dubs , but also fir Dubs,
Dublin , correctly, argued for extra central funding, on the basis of overall GAA benefit. The overall GAA benefit of splitting Dublin can now also be argued. This has serious potential to develop the GAA in the capital ....more county players, novel pairings, more matches.
The status quo makes no sense for AI championship but particularly no sense for GAA in the capital

That's not how people in Dublin see it

The only way a split could happen is if it becomes so inevitable that there is obviously no alternative - like a united Ireland situation becoming inevitable in reverse - say, if Dublin win 20 All-Irelands in a row and nobody can come within 10 or 15 points of them in a final for a decade

We are nowhere near that and we are highly unlikely to ever get to that point and there are loads of common sense measures that can be undertaken to enhance a competitive championship before then

If you tried to force a split on Dublin before that of sort case scenario arrives, it would cause the biggest civil war Irish sport has ever seen, it would be like 100 Saipans, and it would probably destroy GAA in Dublin, for many years at least

People have no idea what they're talking about here in relation to this

It was only 15 a week ago! Suppose with six looking good it's time to push the boat out a bit further.

But if we get near either of those numbers intercounty football is over. And the GAA as we know it is over. 100 Saipans in Dublin GAA wouldn't be so bad by comparison.

[GalwayBayBoy]

We have the most successful Meath manager in the last 20 years. Anyone else you can name that could do a better job. We have ex pro rugby players doing S&C and even that has brought us on quite a bit from what I can see.

Achievements at club level in Leinster and the All Ireland haven't had much reflection on inter county success in Meath. This is something that has been talked to death in the county but perhaps it reflects upon the fact that we don't have one strong club that dominates like Crossmaglen, Corafin or Dr Crokes.

Our under achievement at underage is well documented and measures to address this have been on going in the county for well over a decade. There are lads in the panel now who have all beaten Dublin at minor level and we've done it again recently. Still miles behind at senior level.

I can accept the fact that Dublin are better than us in many factors and they have a super team for sure but for someone to say we aren't trying is what's sickening to hear when you know all that is being done across the county and the funding that's gone into it, which has come from grassroots up a lot of it, is far beyond what I think is reasonable for an amateur sport and yet still to be so far off Dublin is so disheartening.

I honestly don't know what is the fairest way to redress the imbalance, but even those who remember dominant Kerry teams know that they didn't blow everyone out the gate. This is something else altogether if you are on your way to a 6th All Ireland in a row and you win every game by more than 10 points.

our set up is light years ahead of what it was during the glory years. To be so many years working on improving ourselves to get back to the top 4 or 5 teams and to be so easily dismissed makes you question it all. Perhaps this was a long time coming but it was inevitable and perhaps most likely that Dublin would be the team to do it based on geography and demographics.

Mayo's strength stems from their underage set up and the strength of their club scenes, these have been neglected in Meath

Does it though? Mayo have only won 2 of the last 11 Connacht U-20 titles and 1 of the last 5 Connacht minor titles. Galway have won 9 between both grades and Roscommon have won 4. Mayo clubs have only won 2 of the last 12 Connacht senior club titles.

You could argue they've been efficient in that they turned just 3 Connacht titles at underage into 2 All-Ireland titles in recent years. Mayo are obviously doing something right but they are not clearing up at underage even in Connacht, let alone nationally.

[seafoid]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/kevin-mcstay-how-stiff-will-mayo-test-be-for-omnipotent-dublin-1.4429796

Because this is not a once-in-a-generation Dublin team. That illusion has been shattered. From 2011 there were only three starters on Saturday evening and from the 2015 All-Ireland final team, only six starters remain. That gives you a sense of how this 'team' has evolved in personnel.
What they share, this extended group, is an addiction to winning - and by as much as possible. They have sustained a level of excellence. Look at their winning averages on the way to finals: in 2011 it was 3.8. By 2013 it was 10.2. In 2015 it was 13.2. In 2017 it was 14.8. This year it is a massive 17.5 points average.

They ask, not unreasonably: what about Kerry's domination? What about Kilkenny?
Well, to begin with neither county got almost €18 million in games development and coaching grants over an 11-year period. And as we have outlined, this is not one generation of players. It was in Kerry and Kilkenny.
It's about Dublin as an entity. And I feel a debate, led by GAA management, has to commence immediately. There has to be an acceptance that there is a problem and that it will require out of the box thinking to resolve it. Or else it will not be resolved.
There will be a lot of column inches and podcasts devoted to this over the coming weeks. A lot of positions are entrenched. This all originated in a GAA sponsored effort to 'fix' the Dublin situation. Well, now they have fixed Dublin but the competition is broken.
Fortunately, Mayo-Dublin finals have been so riveting, they have glossed over so much of what went before.

[Itchy]

Dublin will never be split and counties will not amalgamate, so I invite everyone to return from Fairy land to the real world.

What could be done.

- Centralised sponsorship. GAA central take control of all sponsorship deals. For example AIG, Kingspan and whoever goes into a central pot and is distributed equally to all counties.
- No change to development grants, more people in Dublin need more facilities. Punishing the kids in schools in Dublin is not a solution I want part of.
- Get Dublin out of Croke Park. I am stealing this from the "wearecavan" podcast. The suggestion is that in league every team has 7 games. You play 3 at home, 3 away and 1 you get to play in Croke Park. The dubs should play in Parnell Park and if it is not big enough they can either 1) Develop a new ground or 2) Look to play somewhere else. Forget the money lost to Croke park, it makes multiples more money on corporate events than matches anyway.


Those 3 will level the playing field. Then I say counties should get their own shit together.

[Milltown Row2]

Dublin will never be split and counties will not amalgamate, so I invite everyone to return from Fairy land to the real world.

What could be done.

- Centralised sponsorship. GAA central take control of all sponsorship deals. For example AIG, Kingspan and whoever goes into a central pot and is distributed equally to all counties.
- No change to development grants, more people in Dublin need more facilities. Punishing the kids in schools in Dublin is not a solution I want part of.
- Get Dublin out of Croke Park. I am stealing this from the "wearecavan" podcast. The suggestion is that in league every team has 7 games. You play 3 at home, 3 away and 1 you get to play in Croke Park. The dubs should play in Parnell Park and if it is not big enough they can either 1) Develop a new ground or 2) Look to play somewhere else. Forget the money lost to Croke park, it makes multiples more money on corporate events than matches anyway.


Those 3 will level the playing field. Then I say counties should get their own shit together.

Would be difficult for sponsors, in that they are and want to be associated with lets say Dublin alone, its their money and they would like it with Dublin only, that way their brand will be at the forefront at the business end of things, lowering the money or sharing it may reduce the brand.

A possible way around that is a cap on the counties, so if sponsorships exceed that cap, then there is less money give by CC to the county to even things up..

No reason why Croke shouldn't only be used for finals, NL and other finals..

Semi finals can be used around the country, Casement (when it gets going) Cork and Limerick, Thurles and so on can be used.

Parnell can have a make over, wouldn't cost that much to Dublin if listening to the amounts they get. I did enjoy the spring games in Croke and went a few times, but I get the point on 'home' venue.

Money should be matched on the playing population, extra money required to develop training grounds, no reason why Tyrone should have better facilities than Longford.

Once that is done as Itchy has said, development at grassroots and through the schools is important, lose them young and they are lost forever..

[Itchy]

Dublin will never be split and counties will not amalgamate, so I invite everyone to return from Fairy land to the real world.

What could be done.

- Centralised sponsorship. GAA central take control of all sponsorship deals. For example AIG, Kingspan and whoever goes into a central pot and is distributed equally to all counties.
- No change to development grants, more people in Dublin need more facilities. Punishing the kids in schools in Dublin is not a solution I want part of.
- Get Dublin out of Croke Park. I am stealing this from the "wearecavan" podcast. The suggestion is that in league every team has 7 games. You play 3 at home, 3 away and 1 you get to play in Croke Park. The dubs should play in Parnell Park and if it is not big enough they can either 1) Develop a new ground or 2) Look to play somewhere else. Forget the money lost to Croke park, it makes multiples more money on corporate events than matches anyway.


Those 3 will level the playing field. Then I say counties should get their own shit together.

Would be difficult for sponsors, in that they are and want to be associated with lets say Dublin alone, its their money and they would like it with Dublin only, that way their brand will be at the forefront at the business end of things, lowering the money or sharing it may reduce the brand.

A possible way around that is a cap on the counties, so if sponsorships exceed that cap, then there is less money give by CC to the county to even things up..

No reason why Croke shouldn't only be used for finals, NL and other finals..

Semi finals can be used around the country, Casement (when it gets going) Cork and Limerick, Thurles and so on can be used.

Parnell can have a make over, wouldn't cost that much to Dublin if listening to the amounts they get. I did enjoy the spring games in Croke and went a few times, but I get the point on 'home' venue.

Money should be matched on the playing population, extra money required to develop training grounds, no reason why Tyrone should have better facilities than Longford.

Once that is done as Itchy has said, development at grassroots and through the schools is important, lose them young and they are lost forever..

Well this is my thinkning Milltown. GAA give out the Dublin Jersey to tender, AIG and BOI and whoever bid on it. Lets say they agree 3 year deal worth 50m. The 50m goes back into the pot. Then the GAA take the next county Jersey and put it out and Mayo gets Horkans or whatever for 10m. It goes back into the central Pot and so forth. So the big boys can sponsor who they want but the money goes to HQ to distribute.

[J70]

Its hard to debate something when the various parties can't even agree what the problem is.

To me, this is simply an issue of Dublin finally getting their shit together and making their massive potential pool of talent count. When you have one third of the population of the country, you SHOULD be utterly dominating. Its to Dublin GAA's credit that they have finally arrived at this point after the decades of failure.

But it also makes the solution fairly simple now that they have finally started reaching their potential and sustaining that level. A split, so that the overwhelming advantage in terms of numbers that is driving this is at least somewhat mitigated. There's nothing much can be done about the convenience of being a Dublin player or fan, apart from maybe moving their AI semi-final or League Final to Thurles or Clones or wherever.

With a population pick no longer 5-10 times that of most of their rivals, THEN you can prattle on about organization and dedication. You can be as organized, dedicated and well-coached as you like, but if you don't have the same talented athletes to draw from, there's not much you can do when you come up against someone like Dublin.

The other counties are always going to be on some form of boom-bust cycle given their picks, no matter how organized and dedicated they are.

Splitting Dublin on the basis of their massive population would potentially not only be great for the association but great for Dublin . The status quo will eventually destroy Dublin. The brilliant development of quality players in Dublin, will
Mean that loads of great players will have little chance of playing at the top level. Dublin's unprecedented dominance has become boring for non-Dubs , but also fir Dubs,
Dublin , correctly, argued for extra central funding, on the basis of overall GAA benefit. The overall GAA benefit of splitting Dublin can now also be argued. This has serious potential to develop the GAA in the capital ....more county players, novel pairings, more matches.
The status quo makes no sense for AI championship but particularly no sense for GAA in the capital

That's not how people in Dublin see it

The only way a split could happen is if it becomes so inevitable that there is obviously no alternative - like a united Ireland situation becoming inevitable in reverse - say, if Dublin win 20 All-Irelands in a row and nobody can come within 10 or 15 points of them in a final for a decade

We are nowhere near that and we are highly unlikely to ever get to that point and there are loads of common sense measures that can be undertaken to enhance a competitive championship before then

If you tried to force a split on Dublin before that of sort case scenario arrives, it would cause the biggest civil war Irish sport has ever seen, it would be like 100 Saipans, and it would probably destroy GAA in Dublin, for many years at least

People have no idea what they're talking about here in relation to this

Let's not set the bar TOO low!

[sid waddell]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/kevin-mcstay-how-stiff-will-mayo-test-be-for-omnipotent-dublin-1.4429796

Because this is not a once-in-a-generation Dublin team. That illusion has been shattered. From 2011 there were only three starters on Saturday evening and from the 2015 All-Ireland final team, only six starters remain. That gives you a sense of how

How many Kilkenny players started both the 2000 and 2009 All-Ireland hurling finals?

[mup]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/kevin-mcstay-how-stiff-will-mayo-test-be-for-omnipotent-dublin-1.4429796

Because this is not a once-in-a-generation Dublin team. That illusion has been shattered. From 2011 there were only three starters on Saturday evening and from the 2015 All-Ireland final team, only six starters remain. That gives you a sense of how

How many Kilkenny players started both the 2000 and 2009 All-Ireland hurling finals?

Google it. But your point is meaningless.

Kilkenny don't go banging on about a once in a lifetime team. Dubs do.

[sid waddell]

We have the most successful Meath manager in the last 20 years. Anyone else you can name that could do a better job. We have ex pro rugby players doing S&C and even that has brought us on quite a bit from what I can see.

Achievements at club level in Leinster and the All Ireland haven't had much reflection on inter county success in Meath. This is something that has been talked to death in the county but perhaps it reflects upon the fact that we don't have one strong club that dominates like Crossmaglen, Corafin or Dr Crokes.

Our under achievement at underage is well documented and measures to address this have been on going in the county for well over a decade. There are lads in the panel now who have all beaten Dublin at minor level and we've done it again recently. Still miles behind at senior level.

I can accept the fact that Dublin are better than us in many factors and they have a super team for sure but for someone to say we aren't trying is what's sickening to hear when you know all that is being done across the county and the funding that's gone into it, which has come from grassroots up a lot of it, is far beyond what I think is reasonable for an amateur sport and yet still to be so far off Dublin is so disheartening.

I honestly don't know what is the fairest way to redress the imbalance, but even those who remember dominant Kerry teams know that they didn't blow everyone out the gate. This is something else altogether if you are on your way to a 6th All Ireland in a row and you win every game by more than 10 points.

our set up is light years ahead of what it was during the glory years. To be so many years working on improving ourselves to get back to the top 4 or 5 teams and to be so easily dismissed makes you question it all. Perhaps this was a long time coming but it was inevitable and perhaps most likely that Dublin would be the team to do it based on geography and demographics.

Mayo's strength stems from their underage set up and the strength of their club scenes, these have been neglected in Meath

Does it though? Mayo have only won 2 of the last 11 Connacht U-20 titles and 1 of the last 5 Connacht minor titles. Galway have won 9 between both grades and Roscommon have won 4. Mayo clubs have only won 2 of the last 12 Connacht senior club titles.

You could argue they've been efficient in that they turned just 3 Connacht titles at underage into 2 All-Ireland titles in recent years. Mayo are obviously doing something right but they are not clearing up at underage even in Connacht, let alone nationally.

Mayo's record at underage has been consistently solid if not spectacular

The team of the last decade was built on different generations - it went back as far as the 99/2000 generation of minors, then there was the 2004 U-21/2005 minor/2006 U-21 generation, then the 2008/09 minors, 2013 minors, and latterly the 2016/2018 U-21s/U-20s

All those provided their share, plus they got the in between lads like Lee Keegan

My impression of the Mayo championship has always been that it's one of the best in the country, very competitive

It doesn't have a really dominant team like Corofin are in Galway or Crossmaglen in Armagh, Castlebar did win a good few in recent years but they never had that level of dominance

It has at least seven or eight excellent senior clubs and then a good spread of standard beyond that, with several teams reaching intermediate All-Ireland finals in recent years

It seems to me it's quite like Tyrone in terms of spread, and a bit like Kerry in that county players can come from anywhere

Where they definitely have done very well is in terms of continually integrating younger players into a really good senior set up that players are desperate to play for - and the standards that are expected of them are extremely high from the off

Plus, not winning an All-Ireland since 1951 drives its own dynamic, it's the holy grail, it's tangible and there's boundless optimism that it will be achieved

The whole culture seems so much more demanding than in almost all other counties, demanding in a good way, a way that drives excellence

[sid waddell]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/kevin-mcstay-how-stiff-will-mayo-test-be-for-omnipotent-dublin-1.4429796

Because this is not a once-in-a-generation Dublin team. That illusion has been shattered. From 2011 there were only three starters on Saturday evening and from the 2015 All-Ireland final team, only six starters remain. That gives you a sense of how

How many Kilkenny players started both the 2000 and 2009 All-Ireland hurling finals?

Google it. But your point is meaningless.

Kilkenny don't go banging on about a once in a lifetime team. Dubs do.

If it's meaningless as regards Kilkenny, it's meaningless as regards Dublin

[mup]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/kevin-mcstay-how-stiff-will-mayo-test-be-for-omnipotent-dublin-1.4429796

Because this is not a once-in-a-generation Dublin team. That illusion has been shattered. From 2011 there were only three starters on Saturday evening and from the 2015 All-Ireland final team, only six starters remain. That gives you a sense of how

How many Kilkenny players started both the 2000 and 2009 All-Ireland hurling finals?

Google it. But your point is meaningless.

Kilkenny don't go banging on about a once in a lifetime team. Dubs do.

If it's meaningless as regards Kilkenny, it's meaningless as regards Dublin

You just ignored the second part of my post. You dubs keep saying this is a once in a lifetime team and we should enjoy them. It's not a once in a lifetime team. That's why the Kilkenny analogy is meaningless. No Kilkenny person made that argument at the time.

As a matter of interest why didn't you pick the Kerry teams of 1978 and 1986?

[sid waddell]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/kevin-mcstay-how-stiff-will-mayo-test-be-for-omnipotent-dublin-1.4429796

Because this is not a once-in-a-generation Dublin team. That illusion has been shattered. From 2011 there were only three starters on Saturday evening and from the 2015 All-Ireland final team, only six starters remain. That gives you a sense of how

How many Kilkenny players started both the 2000 and 2009 All-Ireland hurling finals?

Google it. But your point is meaningless.

Kilkenny don't go banging on about a once in a lifetime team. Dubs do.

If it's meaningless as regards Kilkenny, it's meaningless as regards Dublin

You just ignored the second part of my post. You dubs keep saying this is a once in a lifetime team and we should enjoy them. It's not a once in a lifetime team. That's why the Kilkenny analogy is meaningless. No Kilkenny person made that argument at the time.

As a matter of interest why didn't you pick the Kerry teams of 1978 and 1986?

The point was made that this is not a generational Dublin team and that this is different to anything to went before in the GAA

But it isn't different, because Kilkenny did the same thing - they had two players who started both the 2000 and 2009 finals

So the point is wrong

And no bleating or attempt to change the subject will change that

The point is wrong

[Rossfan]

Kilkenny hasn't got 1.4m people and hasnt got 39,000 players.

[mup]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/kevin-mcstay-how-stiff-will-mayo-test-be-for-omnipotent-dublin-1.4429796

Because this is not a once-in-a-generation Dublin team. That illusion has been shattered. From 2011 there were only three starters on Saturday evening and from the 2015 All-Ireland final team, only six starters remain. That gives you a sense of how

How many Kilkenny players started both the 2000 and 2009 All-Ireland hurling finals?

Google it. But your point is meaningless.

Kilkenny don't go banging on about a once in a lifetime team. Dubs do.

If it's meaningless as regards Kilkenny, it's meaningless as regards Dublin

You just ignored the second part of my post. You dubs keep saying this is a once in a lifetime team and we should enjoy them. It's not a once in a lifetime team. That's why the Kilkenny analogy is meaningless. No Kilkenny person made that argument at the time.

As a matter of interest why didn't you pick the Kerry teams of 1978 and 1986?

The point was made that this is not a generational Dublin team and that this is different to anything to went before in the GAA

But it isn't different, because Kilkenny did the same thing - they had two players who started both the 2000 and 2009 finals

So the point is wrong

And no bleating or attempt to change the subject will change that

The point is wrong

I'm probably wasting my time here but sure I'll try to help you understand.

The sane amongst us have argued that Gaa money has aided Dublin during their current purple patch. Dubs have argued that it is a once in a generation side. It's not a once in a generation side. Nor was the Kilkenny one you mentioned.

HOWEVER Kilkenny did not receive millions to help them during this time. So it is different.