Armagh - The Postmortem and The Future

[Our Nail Loney]

what is orange and goes beep beep beep?

the armagh open top bus reversing into the garage.

[pintsofguinness]

I'm on your side on that particular row Pints, but please, lets not go there again!! 

So don't call them amateurs - they want to be treated as professionals then they must take the good and bad of that and the bad is their night's out being talked about and indeed their behaviour being reported in the press - if any of our Olympic team were acting the bollocks in Beijing their actions would be reported and it would be assumed to be fair enough - same goes here.

What a ridiculous comparison - our local GAA team in the local hotel and the Irish olympic team in Beijing?

What's the difference? 
the olympic team are "amateurs" too, picking up a government cheque - just like the GAA players.

[Joe Umbrella (hey)]

The majority of the Irish Olympic team are professionals with tasty professional contracts, with the exception of boxing of course. Because boxing is a high profile amateur sport it is a mis concieved perception that all Olympians are amateur, and boxers on coming home from the Olympics have the pick of lucrative professional contracts whereas when county footballers finish win or exit thier main competion (the championshp) its back to the site on monday morning and the masssive stage that is rural club football. 

[pintsofguinness]

The majority of the Irish Olympic team are professionals with tasty professional contracts, with the exception of boxing of course. Because boxing is a high profile amateur sport it is a mis concieved perception that all Olympians are amateur, and boxers on coming home from the Olympics have the pick of lucrative professional contracts whereas when county footballers finish win or exit thier main competion (the championshp) its back to the site on monday morning and the masssive stage that is rural club football. 

Nonsense, both sets of amateurs picking up government cheques.
If gaa players want to be treated like professoinals then they can take the good and bad of it.

[INDIANA]

thats utter bollox joe, they live like hermits, train in shite conditions and rarely turn professional. only a few ever turn pro. there are ceratin gaa players between cars etc are pulling in 30k a year, so whats the difference?

[MacCruiskeen]

Huge disappointment yesterday as after first 10 minutes I felt we would go on to overpower Wexford. But fair play the best team won. Some of the early going to ground was annoying but we have a player or two who do the same.
However, and this is no excuse for Armagh as it made no difference to the outcome, the referee should not be allowed anywhere near a major championship game in the future. He clearly has no feel for tackling, foul play or how allowing a game of football to develop and flow. There was no anti-Armagh bias, simply incompetence.

I thought the game was lost for Armagh on the line and after initial enthusiasm for the new management I am disappointed at how they handled this campaign after the Down game.

Yesterday some of the simplest glaring problems were not addressed.

1. Forcing  Clarke and and McDonnell to forage and fight against 3 men throughout. Clarke clearly suffered a knock in the first half as a result of being double teamed. His scores in the game where really quite superb. In my view if you are in the lucky position of having not one but two of the 10 best forwards in football you do not leave them hanging out to dry without support. A simple expedient against the Wexford sweeper would have been to stick in a big man (Swift, McKenna, even Vernon) and disrupt the Wexford back three for  10-15 minutes. Even the aristocratic Galway used this ploy against Kerry.

2. The selections since Down have become increasingly conservative. Peter Canavan made a very astute point about the Armagh manager during commentary on the Ulster final saying he was surprised by his lack of confidence. The manager himself praised the old hands after the first game and  also said while the  young lads were good you couldn't trust them in the tight spots. I feel this fear of failure has been transmitted to the players and the system the team has used since the Down game. We are like Italy in soccer withdrawing crablike into our shell hoping to avoid disaster.

3. The total failure to address Wexfords short and intelligent kickouts. This handed the possession to them time and time again. I think this was sysptomatic of a failure on the line to react to many things during the game.

3. Breaking ball. This has been a recurrent problem throughout the campaign. But I feel this is also a failure of the current system we set the players to play. Instead of attacking our half forwards are foraging around the half back line. We need a clear plan of action where athletic fast half backs are going forward with breaking ball rather than recycling and then going forward in a slow and deliberate fashion. The success of MOR is a double edged sword as he slows the play down, often moves sideways or back and is a terrible defender (stretches out arm and lets faster player ease past).

4. Fitness and conditioning. I am amazed to be even raising this issue and may be entirely wrong but  the team has looked less fit and to have  less endurance than any since 2000. I suspect we need to lose a few pounds of muscle and increase speed and endurance.

Although this all sounds like griping I have enjoyed the best 10 years in Armagh football history. Some of these players have transcended county and become greats in the All Ireland sphere. That is no small accomplishment for a county like Armagh. I fully expect us to regroup and build again as there are plenty of very good footballers on the panel. I hope the current manager throws off the shackles of the past and sets his own system in place but have serious doubt after this year. Clearly needs another year at it though.

The second game was a treat to watch,  the journey to and from the match the worst I have ever undertaken. (planes, trains and a horribly  long, wet walk left 6 am got back 2 am the next day.

To all those dimwitted clowns slagging off Armagh. If you can't at least introduce a modicum of wit as O'Neill does then f**k Off. Dolts.

[Joe Umbrella (hey)]

There are only a few GAA players who pull in £30k and like I said only boxers on thier return from the Olympics get the offers - Ireland only have 5 boxers in Beijing and you can gaurantee these guys recieve some kind of financial backing to the tune of £30k otherwise their bid to make the Olympics would,nt happen. I also stated that boxers are the only true amateurs left in the Olympics.

[boro]

Your some gimp, those lemons your eating must taste awful bitter. As a Wexford man I can tell ye we never as proud of Matty as we were yesterday. Armagh talking about dirty players?, did you ever hear the expression: people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Really? Because I remember speaking to Wexford men about him before and they hated him, said everyone in the county did (with maybe the exception of his own club)?
I think he's a great player but he's a dirty c**t. 

Off course they said that, on cloud fuckin cuckoo land. Time you came back to earth boss

[JMohan]

There are only a few GAA players who pull in £30k and like I said only boxers on thier return from the Olympics get the offers - Ireland only have 5 boxers in Beijing and you can gaurantee these guys recieve some kind of financial backing to the tune of £30k otherwise their bid to make the Olympics would,nt happen. I also stated that boxers are the only true amateurs left in the Olympics.

I spoke with a current Irish Pro boxer some time ago who disputes that claim

[pintsofguinness]

Your some gimp, those lemons your eating must taste awful bitter. As a Wexford man I can tell ye we never as proud of Matty as we were yesterday. Armagh talking about dirty players?, did you ever hear the expression: people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Really? Because I remember speaking to Wexford men about him before and they hated him, said everyone in the county did (with maybe the exception of his own club)?
I think he's a great player but he's a dirty c**t. 

Off course they said that, on cloud fuckin cuckoo land. Time you came back to earth boss

Yes they did, sorry to break it to you. 
Regardless of that though, I think anyone who has ever watched him play know how dirty he is.  He's not even hard or tough, just interested in the sly digs and tramping on people on the ground, the worst kind of dirt. 

[JMohan]

Very good insight MacCruiskeen

Huge disappointment yesterday as after first 10 minutes I felt we would go on to overpower Wexford. But fair play the best team won. Some of the early going to ground was annoying but we have a player or two who do the same.
However, and this is no excuse for Armagh as it made no difference to the outcome, the referee should not be allowed anywhere near a major championship game in the future. He clearly has no feel for tackling, foul play or how allowing a game of football to develop and flow. There was no anti-Armagh bias, simply incompetence.

I thought the game was lost for Armagh on the line and after initial enthusiasm for the new management I am disappointed at how they handled this campaign after the Down game.

Yesterday some of the simplest glaring problems were not addressed.

1. Forcing  Clarke and and McDonnell to forage and fight against 3 men throughout. Clarke clearly suffered a knock in the first half as a result of being double teamed. His scores in the game where really quite superb. In my view if you are in the lucky position of having not one but two of the 10 best forwards in football you do not leave them hanging out to dry without support. A simple expedient against the Wexford sweeper would have been to stick in a big man (Swift, McKenna, even Vernon) and disrupt the Wexford back three for  10-15 minutes. Even the aristocratic Galway used this ploy against Kerry.

2. The selections since Down have become increasingly conservative. Peter Canavan made a very astute point about the Armagh manager during commentary on the Ulster final saying he was surprised by his lack of confidence. The manager himself praised the old hands after the first game and  also said while the  young lads were good you couldn't trust them in the tight spots. I feel this fear of failure has been transmitted to the players and the system the team has used since the Down game. We are like Italy in soccer withdrawing crablike into our shell hoping to avoid disaster.

Agree completely - There is a trend developing where Armagh cannot close games - not because they can't - but because they believe they can't and don't just go for the jugular. I agree management need to look at this closely.

3. The total failure to address Wexfords short and intelligent kickouts. This handed the possession to them time and time again. I think this was sysptomatic of a failure on the line to react to many things during the game.
How this was not addressed by even the guys on the field I don't know!

3. Breaking ball. This has been a recurrent problem throughout the campaign. But I feel this is also a failure of the current system we set the players to play. Instead of attacking our half forwards are foraging around the half back line. We need a clear plan of action where athletic fast half backs are going forward with breaking ball rather than recycling and then going forward in a slow and deliberate fashion. The success of MOR is a double edged sword as he slows the play down, often moves sideways or back and is a terrible defender (stretches out arm and lets faster player ease past).
This is my very point abut having the two O'Rourkes and even Aaron Kernan the pace is slowed down coming out of the half back line

4. Fitness and conditioning. I am amazed to be even raising this issue and may be entirely wrong but  the team has looked less fit and to have  less endurance than any since 2000. I suspect we need to lose a few pounds of muscle and increase speed and endurance.
Absoluetly - again something I raised earlier - I think there are even some guys that are carying too much fat (let alone muscle). I think it's an area that Armagh need to address quickly as even some of the younger players like Kernan and Vernon looked cumbersome

[boro]

Your some gimp, those lemons your eating must taste awful bitter. As a Wexford man I can tell ye we never as proud of Matty as we were yesterday. Armagh talking about dirty players?, did you ever hear the expression: people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Really? Because I remember speaking to Wexford men about him before and they hated him, said everyone in the county did (with maybe the exception of his own club)?
I think he's a great player but he's a dirty c**t. 

Off course they said that, on cloud fuckin cuckoo land. Time you came back to earth boss

Yes they did, sorry to break it to you. 
Regardless of that though, I think anyone who has ever watched him play know how dirty he is.  He's not even hard or tough, just interested in the sly digs and tramping on people on the ground, the worst kind of dirt. 

Will ye go crawl back under your stone again. Thats a disgraceful comment and i shouldn't even be giving it the dignity of a reply

[pintsofguinness]

What's a "disgraceful comment" - that Forde is a dirty player?
Ha!
Take your head out of the sand and you'll see it to.

[Joe Umbrella (hey)]

There are only a few GAA players who pull in £30k and like I said only boxers on thier return from the Olympics get the offers - Ireland only have 5 boxers in Beijing and you can gaurantee these guys recieve some kind of financial backing to the tune of £30k otherwise their bid to make the Olympics would,nt happen. I also stated that boxers are the only true amateurs left in the Olympics.

I spoke with a current Irish Pro boxer some time ago who disputes that claim

The fact of the matter is, that there is a world of difference between our Olympian and and our county footballer. The reason I made this point was in argument to pintsofg and his comparison between the 2. I have had the priviledge and honour of representing my country for a number of years in my chosen sport, the benefits I recieved in that time were ten fold to that of any county Footballer - I know this because I often discussed this with footballers because of my interest in the sport.
Theres no doubt about it, the top 'few' county gaa players do well but not on the level of most Olympians (ie) there are athletes you guys have never heard of who recieve upwards of £100k, they will not win medals, probably not make finals. But after its all done and dusted they will go on the piss in Beijing to which its nobodys concern. And one thing you can guarantee - they won't be going to work on thier immediate return!    

[Joe Umbrella (hey)]

Your some gimp, those lemons your eating must taste awful bitter. As a Wexford man I can tell ye we never as proud of Matty as we were yesterday. Armagh talking about dirty players?, did you ever hear the expression: people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Really? Because I remember speaking to Wexford men about him before and they hated him, said everyone in the county did (with maybe the exception of his own club)?
I think he's a great player but he's a dirty c**t. 

I have to agree with pints on this one . Its not unusual for most of the best county players to be hated within thier own county, and then when the county are playing become 'God' - Peter the great was a perfect example - like Mattie and most ot the great county boys,cute as foxes and not adverse to a bit of nipping pulling. In some ways they have to be, the time Forde tramped on that fella ensured his status "dirty c**t" whether it was the only foul he had ever committed or not.

Off course they said that, on cloud fuckin cuckoo land. Time you came back to earth boss

Yes they did, sorry to break it to you. 
Regardless of that though, I think anyone who has ever watched him play know how dirty he is.  He's not even hard or tough, just interested in the sly digs and tramping on people on the ground, the worst kind of dirt.