Will you get a Covid vaccine if one becomes available in 2021?

[Milltown Row2]

They paused giving out the vaccines until the independent medical experts said it was ok. It's Fr Dougal like that you don't understand that.

In Ireland what reports were they getting on this?

NPHET advised them to based on discussions they had with their European counterparts or equivalents. They then dealt with the EMA and re-started using the vaccine.

Once again the government were in a no in win position. You have people calling them idiots for pausing using the vaccine and if they hadn't they'd have people calling them idiots for not doing it. What can you do?

So there was no reports in Ireland of clotting or even links to clotting?

[dublin7]

They paused giving out the vaccines until the independent medical experts said it was ok. It's Fr Dougal like that you don't understand that.

In Ireland what reports were they getting on this?

NPHET advised them to based on discussions they had with their European counterparts or equivalents. They then dealt with the EMA and re-started using the vaccine.

Once again the government were in a no in win position. You have people calling them idiots for pausing using the vaccine and if they hadn't they'd have people calling them idiots for not doing it. What can you do?

So there was no reports in Ireland of clotting or even links to clotting?

They received some reports, but nothing as extreme as what happened in Norway. When the rest of Europe started pausing using the vaccine they must have discussed it with them.

[Milltown Row2]

Didn't hear of any reports of clotting after receiving the vaccine, is the south using phizer also?

[Evil Genius]

They paused giving out the vaccines until the independent medical experts said it was ok. It's Fr Dougal like that you don't understand that.

In Ireland what reports were they getting on this?

NPHET advised them to based on discussions they had with their European counterparts or equivalents. They then dealt with the EMA and re-started using the vaccine.

Once again the government were in a no in win position. You have people calling them idiots for pausing using the vaccine and if they hadn't they'd have people calling them idiots for not doing it. What can you do?

Sorry, but it was anything but a "no win" situation.

First, the majority of expert opinion throughout the EU and beyond was that the vaccine is/was safe and could save far more lives than it might (emphasise) cost.

Second, the idea of "Erring on the side of caution" is ridiculous in the middle of a pandemic.

Third, the pyshological impact of saying that "We're pausing the vaccine while we double-check the vaccine's safety" immediately puts doubt into peoples minds and plays into the hands of the conspirators.

Finally, with many more experts saying it's safe than experts worrying it might not be, it should have been left up to the people to make thier own choice. That is, those who want to take it should not be prevented from having it because of the fears of those who don't.

All of which would be bad enough had governments come to this conclusion themselves.

But it's quite clear that other countries took their cue from Macron and Merckel, who with elections coming up for both, were themselves far more worried about the political optics than the science.

A complete clusterfuck.

[PadraicHenryPearse]

Did we not pause prior to Germany and France?
if erring of the side of caution is ridiculous why did the vaccines have to be approved in the first place? What is the pyshological impact of saying we are ignoring concerns of vaccine safety?

[dublin7]

Did we not pause prior to Germany and France?
if erring of the side of caution is ridiculous why did the vaccines have to be approved in the first place? What is the pyshological impact of saying we are ignoring concerns of vaccine safety?

That's it. There's enough misinformation/scare mongering as it is so you can't blame the government for pausing the vaccine roll out.  It's easy taking the role of captain hindsight as he's never wrong.

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

Ah how quickly people forgot how much of a disaster uk have been right through this,very short memories

[Evil Genius]

if erring of the side of caution is ridiculous why did the vaccines have to be approved in the first place?

I said erring on the side of caution in a pandemic is ridiculous, eg like saying that you have to have gone on a fire safety course before you can use a fire extinguisher - when your house is burning down.

And if you're asking why vaccines have to be approved in the first place...

What is the pyshological impact of saying we are ignoring concerns of vaccine safety?

No-one is saying we should ignore safety. But as I noted earlier, if you are over-cautious, then you're only putting more fear into peoples minds by acceding to a possible "risk", no matter how unlikely.

And this was made worse by the fact that the Pfizer vaccine has had just as many blood clot associations as AZ (per number of doses administered), yet no-one has suspended its use. Even more to the point, there were just as many post test blood clots observed in the AZ placebo group as in those who were actually given the vaccine.

Yet all of these were ignored in the rush to "caution".

And worst of all was the French position, where initially they refused to give AZ to over-65's, because it hadn't been tested on that group. This ignored the fact that there was no scientific reason why it should not work for them at least as well for them, never mind the even more critical fact that over-65's are at much greater risk from Covid.

Of course they had to do an about-turn when all the data showed that if anything, older people were better protected than younger people. Which was wasted time enough, but when spooked by a bare handful of unexplained blood-clotting incidents in Norway and Germany etc, they first suspended the AZ vaccine, then reintroduced it, but not for under-55's!

Which showed that at least one of those decisions MUST have been wrong, while the evidence is increasing that both were wrong.

[Evil Genius]

Ah how quickly people forgot how much of a disaster uk have been right through this,very short memories

Our response to the disease itself in 2020 was a disaster.

But that should not be an excuse for ignoring it completely when we manage to get it right over vaccination in 2021.

Meaning that after 28m+ vaccinations administered, we're now seeing a lower spread of infection in the UK than in the EU; our hospitalisation rate is falling whilst many others is rising and fewer people are dying than at any time since September.

[armaghniac]

No-one is saying we should ignore safety. But as I noted earlier, if you are over-cautious, then you're only putting more fear into peoples minds by acceding to a possible "risk", no matter how unlikely.

You are saying that pausing for a few days to investigate death is excessive. You need to be able to say that the issue was investigated and explained.

And this was made worse by the fact that the Pfizer vaccine has had just as many blood clot associations as AZ (per number of doses administered), yet no-one has suspended its use. Even more to the point, there were just as many post test blood clots observed in the AZ placebo group as in those who were actually given the vaccine.

Blood clots are not all the same.

And worst of all was the French position, where initially they refused to give AZ to over-65's, because it hadn't been tested on that group. This ignored the fact that there was no scientific reason why it should not work for them at least as well for them, never mind the even more critical fact that over-65's are at much greater risk from Covid.

It wasn't tested, the idea of testing is that you wait for the test. In ROI the AZ was used for health workers, as is the case in Norway where the nurse died, vaccination continued.

Of course they had to do an about-turn when all the data showed that if anything, older people were better protected than younger people. Which was wasted time enough, but when spooked by a bare handful of unexplained blood-clotting incidents in Norway and Germany etc, they first suspended the AZ vaccine, then reintroduced it, but not for under-55's!

Which showed that at least one of those decisions MUST have been wrong, while the evidence is increasing that both were wrong.

It shows nothing of the sort. As John Maynard Keynes is reputed to have said, when I receive new information I change my mind, what do you do?
Fair enough for criticise Macron for his idiotic statement, but you cannot reasonably criticise the French for responding to data.

[Evil Genius]

Meanwhile, the results revealed this morning from the US testing of the AZ vaccine bear repeating:

"Results from the long-awaited US trial of the Oxford-AstraZeneca Covid vaccine are out and confirm that the shot is both safe and highly effective.​
More than 32,000 volunteers took part, mostly in America, but also in Chile and Peru.​
The vaccine was 79% effective against stopping symptomatic Covid disease and 100% effective at preventing people from falling seriously ill.​
And there were no safety issues regarding blood clots.​"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56479462

[armaghniac]

Meanwhile, the results revealed this morning from the US testing of the AZ vaccine bear repeating:

"Results from the long-awaited US trial of the Oxford-AstraZeneca Covid vaccine are out and confirm that the shot is both safe and highly effective.​
More than 32,000 volunteers took part, mostly in America, but also in Chile and Peru.​
The vaccine was 79% effective against stopping symptomatic Covid disease and 100% effective at preventing people from falling seriously ill.​
And there were no safety issues regarding blood clots.​"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56479462

THe Oxford vaccine is a great scientific achievement, althpugh it will have to modifed for the South African variant as it will be useful in Africa.
It is very regrettable that they did not wish to supply it in Europe where the age profile of the population meant that it could do much good.

[Evil Genius]

No-one is saying we should ignore safety. But as I noted earlier, if you are over-cautious, then you're only putting more fear into peoples minds by acceding to a possible "risk", no matter how unlikely.

You are saying that pausing for a few days to investigate death is excessive. You need to be able to say that the issue was investigated and explained.

Try telling that to the relatives of the people who died/will die avoidably during those few days for want of vaccination, a number which is statistically far greater than the people who might have died from unusual blood-clotting, which itself may or may not be vaccine-related.

And this was made worse by the fact that the Pfizer vaccine has had just as many blood clot associations as AZ (per number of doses administered), yet no-one has suspended its use. Even more to the point, there were just as many post test blood clots observed in the AZ placebo group as in those who were actually given the vaccine.

Blood clots are not all the same.

No, but the pattern was no different for Pfizer than it was for AZ.

Of course they had to do an about-turn when all the data showed that if anything, older people were better protected than younger people. Which was wasted time enough, but when spooked by a bare handful of unexplained blood-clotting incidents in Norway and Germany etc, they first suspended the AZ vaccine, then reintroduced it, but not for under-55's!

Which showed that at least one of those decisions MUST have been wrong, while the evidence is increasing that both were wrong.

It shows nothing of the sort. As John Maynard Keynes is reputed to have said, when I receive new information I change my mind, what do you do?
Fair enough for criticise Macron for his idiotic statement, but you cannot reasonably criticise the French for responding to data.

They clearly got it wrong by withholding it from over-65's.

Now the evidence of millions of vaccinations administered to under-55's in the UK and elsewhere is that it is safe and effective for that group, too. Which is only what the EMA and the WHO are saying, with the US authorities weighing in behind them today, too.

As for the French "responding to the data", the data clearly shows that statistically, many more people will die from contracting Covid than would die from unusual blood-clotting - even if it should be proven that vaccination caused the latter, which it hasn't yet.

As I said, a clusterfuck.

[Evil Genius]

THe Oxford vaccine is a great scientific achievement, althpugh it will have to modifed for the South African variant as it will be useful in Africa.
It is very regrettable that they did not wish to supply it in Europe where the age profile of the population meant that it could do much good.

It is not yet certain how much less effective the AZ vaccine is to the SA variant, if at all.

But even if it's efficacy is a few points lower, percentage-wise, the fact that it is so much cheaper than the Pfizer vaccine, and doesn't have to be transported and stored at ultra-low temperatures, means that it will still be available to provide protection to millions in Africa that will not be open to them from Pfizer and other vaccines.

Which is why Ghana, for example, has administered nearly half a million AZ doses already and is crying out for more:
https://www.msn.com/en-xl/africa/ghana/covid-19-almost-half-a-million-ghanaians-receive-astrazeneca-vaccines/ar-BB1eOpJq

It is very regrettable that they did not wish to supply it in Europe where the age profile of the population meant that it could do much good.

How many f**king times? 

It is simply untrue to claim that AZ "do not wish to supply it in Europe". They have already distributed millions of doses to Europe, from both their UK and continental facilities, where ironically (and disgracefully) many of those doses remain unused.

The problem is that some of the doses which they contracted to supply have been delayed due to a manufacturing problem. The EU is claiming that they should (effectively) divert some of the vaccines they are supplying under other deals, whilst AZ say that under the terms of all their other various contracts, they cannot do so; nor can they be held liable for the reduction in supply to the EU.

It remains to be seen which side is correct, presumably after a court case or three.

Meanwhile,whatever the contractual obligations, why do you and so many others ignore the fact that AZ is as much Swedish as it is British, and Sweden is an EU member, making it plain silly to claim that the country is somehow "anti-EU".

[armaghniac]

Try telling that to the relatives of the people who died/will die avoidably during those few days for want of vaccination, a number which is statistically far greater than the people who might have died from unusual blood-clotting, which itself may or may not be vaccine-related.

In the ROI there was about one chance in 33 of any death resulting from this, as the AZ was being given to younger people only.
This shouldn't be diminished, but it shouldn't be exaggerated either.

No, but the pattern was no different for Pfizer than it was for AZ.

THe Norwegian medical authorities do not think so.

They clearly got it wrong by withholding it from over-65's.

No, they waited for the data.

As for the French "responding to the data", the data clearly shows that statistically, many more people will die from contracting Covid than would die from unusual blood-clotting - even if it should be proven that vaccination caused the latter, which it hasn't yet.

Perhaps, but they won't be the same people. You need to show the vaccine is safe to get youngish people to take it as their risk of Covid is less.