Will you get a Covid vaccine if one becomes available in 2021?

[Angelo]

Ahh so the genius recommends the "fizzle out" strategy.
I wonder was that what our Government tried in December where cases went from 400 a day up to 5 or 6,000.
Would that be Covid fizzling out?

That would be yet another failed lockdown strategy which just like the first one, did not work.

You're really vocal about Covid but do you care about unemployment, mental health and suicides, domestic violence and other forms of abuse, care services and supports to people with mental and physical disabilities, the education and social development of children etc? You quite clearly seem to be giving those groupings the two fingers because lockdowns will have a very long lasting and serious impact on all those vulernable groupings. But you have no problem throwing your two fingers up at their needs.

Lockdowns worked.

Reasonable restrictions - not so much.

Absolute horseshit.

They have failed, unequivocally.

Reasonable restrictions? Yes absolutely. They have been a complete shambles.

Reasonable restrictions allow for people to go and out and work, for businesses to stay open, for vulnerable groupings to avail of support services, look after their physical and mental health, for domestic abuse victims to have some manner of escape and support from their abuser.

Tell those groupings we need another lockdown.

Reasonable restrictions failed 3 times. Plaese don't tell me you would want to return to that, where people can't be treated in hospital due to stress on the NHS, Where cancer people are dying because of hospitals being overrun, where support services can't operate as  staff are isolating. And on top of that where the death rate is 80K+ above the average.

No one would argue for that surely.

They haven't failed the groupings I've outlined who you have once again dismissed as an irrelevance or an inconvenience.

Cancer patients are dying as a result of lockdowns. Why are Covid patients the priority? Why don't we have a specialist cancer hospital during this where Covid cases are not admitted?

[Milltown Row2]

Can anyone tell me how many people died of the flu, in the winter of 17/18? I've been trying to find these figures for a while now, no luck..

In the UK there were 50k excess deaths during the winter flu season. What this is attributable to is not confirmed. All we know is that everyone found that type of excess death rate perfectly acceptable and every winter we find excess death rates perfectly acceptable.

Except this winter that is.

I'm really struggling here to see the point you're trying to make. Are you saying that because "everyone found that type of excess death rate perfectly acceptable" (which I don't believe at all) that we should find similar or higher death rates acceptable now?

No-one wants to be in lock down. But what is the realistic alternative? Let things go on as they were? Allow hospitals to be overrun with patients to the point where new patients cannot be admitted or staff collapse on their feet? With an R rate of 1.8, the number of cases will grow very quickly and likewise the small percentage requiring hospital treatment will grow (did I see 1% somewhere?). 1% of our populate is over 18K hospital admissions which would not normally happen over the lifecycle of this covid pandemic.

In my opinion, we need the short term emergency lockdown to protect the health system from collapsing whilst the medium/long term answer is the Vaccine (provided it is used in the way it has been designed to be used). And whilst lock down will adversely affect the economy and mental health of some, surely a big picture approach has to be taken where the highest risk conditions (currently Covid) are prioritised?

The single biggest failing is that there is too much dithering in deciding to impose the restrictions

If you have a better idea Angelo, I'd love to hear it.

I'm talking about facts here.

If you didn't find it acceptable in Jan 18, shows a few posts where you wanted something done about it?

It's the complete and utter contradictions of people like you who will put out a rationale on one hand and then go against it when you are shown something else.

Why don't we lockdown every winter to save deaths when we know flus are a huge problem? Can you answer me that? Should we have been locking down in Nov/Dec 17?

What facts are you talking about?
Why do you think i'd have posted on here in Jan 18 about not finding something acceptable? Does the fact that I didn't post on here mean I didn't think it?
What contradictions have I made? Please point them out?

Like I said in the previous post when highlighting the risks to the health service, if you have a better idea than lockdown at this particular point in time I'd like to hear it. Genuinely I would. I personally don't see a better choice right now, so please do share some of your wisdom based on facts!
If you dont have a better idea to protect the health service at this point in time, then what are you talking about?

The death rates during the winter flu season in 17/18.

A better idea would be not to continue with a strategy that has failed to curb Covid twice before and has detrimental consequences to society.

But hey you want to pretend that lockdowns have no negative consequences and have an agenda to dismiss taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture and all the carnage lockdowns cause.

Ok, so instead of telling us what your strategy is, your position is simply not the current strategy as it's failing?
I have never said there are no negative consequences of lockdown. What I clearly said was that the highest priority right now, today, is Covid and the pressure it's putting on the health service.

So I'll ask you again, what measures would you take today to reduce the pressure on the health service given that the single biggest issue affecting them at the moment is the number of patients being admitted with Covid?

If you don't have a strategy then please explain what you are talking about?

Angelo still waiting for your reply....or don't you have one?

So you're asking me a question I have comprehensively answered before.

Why don't you go find it.

I had to bump the same answer for Tubberman after he quoted it there a few days ago. PadraicHenryPearse and Franko then insisted on asking me the same already answered question a few posts later and now you. If you're too lazy to read the last 10 or so pages on this topic then that's not my problem.

Meanwhile you insist on repeating a strategy that has already failed twice?

Are you aware of the definition of insanity?

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, or debating with Angelo.
These words are usually credited to the acclaimed genius Albert Einstein

We're in Lockdown #3 after 2 previous failures.

It is insanity and you can spot the idiots who double down on insanity.

your plan as far as i can make out is do what we did after lockdown 1. it didnt work!!! we tried again after lockdown 2 and it still didnt work...

you seem to think we can do it better and not overrun the health system.and that people will go about their normal business knowing they are getting and spreading... but haven't explain how we so it different so we woild not be back in a lockdown again.... lockdowns are a direct result of your approach not working...

And what's going to happen after Lockdown #3 do you think?

Lockdowns are unsustainable and are causing huge societal problem that we are going to see the impacts of for the rest of our living lives.

For what end are we continuing with the failed strategy of lockdowns?

If we see suicides up 50%, 60%, 70%.
Domestic abuse rates up the same.
Addiction relapses the same.
People reporting mental health problems the same.

Are you going to say that we have done the right thing?

I really can't understand this strategy when we are happy huge excess deaths every winter from seasonal flu without ever contemplating a lockdown.

All those figures (if true) are awful, so how do we bring those figures down?

They're hypothetical, bar the domestic abuse cases but we do know Lockdown is the cause.

So what do we do? It's pretty obvious isn't it? We don't use lockdowns.

Ok we don't use lockdowns we use thingy instead? Which is? its slipped my mind can you remind me again?

We use reasonable restrictive measures we had during the summer.

Reasonable restrictive measures like:

open up business, 2 meter rule. Work from home if we can. No schools (summer) wash hands, make it warmer... Did we do anything else?

Angelo, can you fill in the rest of this please, and then show me when we did this that it didn't lead to the numbers rising, and did the numbers rise because we went into lockdown

[Angelo]

Angelo, can you fill in the rest of this please, and then show me when we did this that it didn't lead to the numbers rising, and did the numbers rise because we went into lockdown

Another post dismissing any vulnerable grouping that is not a Covid statistic.

There's more to this than people who get Covid you know but f**k them right?

[Milltown Row2]

Angelo, can you fill in the rest of this please, and then show me when we did this that it didn't lead to the numbers rising, and did the numbers rise because we went into lockdown

Another post dismissing any vulnerable grouping that is not a Covid statistic.

There's more to this than people who get Covid you know but f**k them right?

I'm asking a simple question, I'm not arguing with you, as its pointless, just want to know other than the ones I've listed is there something missing? If so we should look at it sensibly and ask for those life saving restrictions to come back into play

[trueblue1234]

Ahh so the genius recommends the "fizzle out" strategy.
I wonder was that what our Government tried in December where cases went from 400 a day up to 5 or 6,000.
Would that be Covid fizzling out?

That would be yet another failed lockdown strategy which just like the first one, did not work.

You're really vocal about Covid but do you care about unemployment, mental health and suicides, domestic violence and other forms of abuse, care services and supports to people with mental and physical disabilities, the education and social development of children etc? You quite clearly seem to be giving those groupings the two fingers because lockdowns will have a very long lasting and serious impact on all those vulernable groupings. But you have no problem throwing your two fingers up at their needs.

Lockdowns worked.

Reasonable restrictions - not so much.

Absolute horseshit.

They have failed, unequivocally.

Reasonable restrictions? Yes absolutely. They have been a complete shambles.

Reasonable restrictions allow for people to go and out and work, for businesses to stay open, for vulnerable groupings to avail of support services, look after their physical and mental health, for domestic abuse victims to have some manner of escape and support from their abuser.

Tell those groupings we need another lockdown.

Reasonable restrictions failed 3 times. Plaese don't tell me you would want to return to that, where people can't be treated in hospital due to stress on the NHS, Where cancer people are dying because of hospitals being overrun, where support services can't operate as  staff are isolating. And on top of that where the death rate is 80K+ above the average.

No one would argue for that surely.

They haven't failed the groupings I've outlined who you have once again dismissed as an irrelevance or an inconvenience.

Cancer patients are dying as a result of lockdowns. Why are Covid patients the priority? Why don't we have a specialist cancer hospital during this where Covid cases are not admitted?

I didn't, We discussed then at length yesterday, you should know you were involved. I just don't intend to do that dance again.

[Angelo]

Angelo, can you fill in the rest of this please, and then show me when we did this that it didn't lead to the numbers rising, and did the numbers rise because we went into lockdown

Another post dismissing any vulnerable grouping that is not a Covid statistic.

There's more to this than people who get Covid you know but f**k them right?

I'm asking a simple question, I'm not arguing with you, as its pointless, just want to know other than the ones I've listed is there something missing? If so we should look at it sensibly and ask for those life saving restrictions to come back into play

But you are completing disregarding any grouping other than Covid.

Another guy who has Covid tunnel vision.

During Lockdown, decisions were made to stop cancer screenings and other appointments. This led to cancer diagnoses dropping rapidly during lockdown periods. We were happy to let cancer spread in people to stop Covid. Why? Cancer kills how many people every year and we abandoned that fight to focus on Covid. We abandoned every other physicla and mental ailment that ravages people every year to focus soleley on Covid. It's ok I suppose we can probably chalk them down as a Covid death at the end of the day to justify it.

[Angelo]

I didn't, We discussed then at length yesterday, you should know you were involved. I just don't intend to do that dance again.

Point out to where you considered and referenced their needs and their plight in the below post.

Reasonable restrictions failed 3 times. Plaese don't tell me you would want to return to that, where people can't be treated in hospital due to stress on the NHS, Where cancer people are dying because of hospitals being overrun, where support services can't operate as  staff are isolating. And on top of that where the death rate is 80K+ above the average.

No one would argue for that surely.

Cancer diagnoses fell during lockdown. Why was that? Because they wanted to assign resources from helping people battle cancer to battle Covid.

[trueblue1234]

Angelo, can you fill in the rest of this please, and then show me when we did this that it didn't lead to the numbers rising, and did the numbers rise because we went into lockdown

Another post dismissing any vulnerable grouping that is not a Covid statistic.

There's more to this than people who get Covid you know but f**k them right?

I'm asking a simple question, I'm not arguing with you, as its pointless, just want to know other than the ones I've listed is there something missing? If so we should look at it sensibly and ask for those life saving restrictions to come back into play

But you are completing disregarding any grouping other than Covid.

Another guy who has Covid tunnel vision.

During Lockdown, decisions were made to stop cancer screenings and other appointments. This led to cancer diagnoses dropping rapidly during lockdown periods. We were happy to let cancer spread in people to stop Covid. Why? Cancer kills how many people every year and we abandoned that fight to focus on Covid. We abandoned every other physicla and mental ailment that ravages people every year to focus soleley on Covid. It's ok I suppose we can probably chalk them down as a Covid death at the end of the day to justify it.

They are now cancelling cancer operations due to pressure on the NHS with staff shortages. This is the result of your preferred option. This is what your reasonable restrictions have done. 

[trueblue1234]

I didn't, We discussed then at length yesterday, you should know you were involved. I just don't intend to do that dance again.

Point out to where you considered and referenced their needs and their plight in the below post.

Reasonable restrictions failed 3 times. Plaese don't tell me you would want to return to that, where people can't be treated in hospital due to stress on the NHS, Where cancer people are dying because of hospitals being overrun, where support services can't operate as  staff are isolating. And on top of that where the death rate is 80K+ above the average.

No one would argue for that surely.

Cancer diagnoses fell during lockdown. Why was that? Because they wanted to assign resources from helping people battle cancer to battle Covid.

I didn't. Maybe you should re read my post about what we discussed yesterday. Your drowning angelo and you know it.

[Milltown Row2]

Angelo, can you fill in the rest of this please, and then show me when we did this that it didn't lead to the numbers rising, and did the numbers rise because we went into lockdown

Another post dismissing any vulnerable grouping that is not a Covid statistic.

There's more to this than people who get Covid you know but f**k them right?

I'm asking a simple question, I'm not arguing with you, as its pointless, just want to know other than the ones I've listed is there something missing? If so we should look at it sensibly and ask for those life saving restrictions to come back into play

But you are completing disregarding any grouping other than Covid.

Another guy who has Covid tunnel vision.

During Lockdown, decisions were made to stop cancer screenings and other appointments. This led to cancer diagnoses dropping rapidly during lockdown periods. We were happy to let cancer spread in people to stop Covid. Why? Cancer kills how many people every year and we abandoned that fight to focus on Covid. We abandoned every other physicla and mental ailment that ravages people every year to focus soleley on Covid. It's ok I suppose we can probably chalk them down as a Covid death at the end of the day to justify it.

Don't remind me what cancer does, I've dealt with it since March and buried my dad with it in November so you can keep your details and what people go through with cancer..

So if we stick to the title thread and covid, and not having a covid tunnel vision head. What restrictions would improve the numbers for covid other than lockdown? BTW I don't like lockdown as it greatly reduced my own personal and business needs but you haven't answered my question.

[Angelo]

Angelo, can you fill in the rest of this please, and then show me when we did this that it didn't lead to the numbers rising, and did the numbers rise because we went into lockdown

Another post dismissing any vulnerable grouping that is not a Covid statistic.

There's more to this than people who get Covid you know but f**k them right?

I'm asking a simple question, I'm not arguing with you, as its pointless, just want to know other than the ones I've listed is there something missing? If so we should look at it sensibly and ask for those life saving restrictions to come back into play

But you are completing disregarding any grouping other than Covid.

Another guy who has Covid tunnel vision.

During Lockdown, decisions were made to stop cancer screenings and other appointments. This led to cancer diagnoses dropping rapidly during lockdown periods. We were happy to let cancer spread in people to stop Covid. Why? Cancer kills how many people every year and we abandoned that fight to focus on Covid. We abandoned every other physicla and mental ailment that ravages people every year to focus soleley on Covid. It's ok I suppose we can probably chalk them down as a Covid death at the end of the day to justify it.

They are now cancelling cancer operations due to pressure on the NHS with staff shortages. This is the result of your preferred option. This is what your reasonable restrictions have done.

Point proven - this is what lockdown brings you.

They choose to cancel cancer operations DURING a lockdown.

Why cancel the cancer operation that could save someone's life?

Covid trumps everything and the consequences of such shortsighted vision is of detrimental impact to our society. If you don't have Covid, healthcare is not interested in you.

[Angelo]

Angelo, can you fill in the rest of this please, and then show me when we did this that it didn't lead to the numbers rising, and did the numbers rise because we went into lockdown

Another post dismissing any vulnerable grouping that is not a Covid statistic.

There's more to this than people who get Covid you know but f**k them right?

I'm asking a simple question, I'm not arguing with you, as its pointless, just want to know other than the ones I've listed is there something missing? If so we should look at it sensibly and ask for those life saving restrictions to come back into play

But you are completing disregarding any grouping other than Covid.

Another guy who has Covid tunnel vision.

During Lockdown, decisions were made to stop cancer screenings and other appointments. This led to cancer diagnoses dropping rapidly during lockdown periods. We were happy to let cancer spread in people to stop Covid. Why? Cancer kills how many people every year and we abandoned that fight to focus on Covid. We abandoned every other physicla and mental ailment that ravages people every year to focus soleley on Covid. It's ok I suppose we can probably chalk them down as a Covid death at the end of the day to justify it.

Don't remind me what cancer does, I've dealt with it since March and buried my dad with it in November so you can keep your details and what people go through with cancer..

So if we stick to the title thread and covid, and not having a covid tunnel vision head. What restrictions would improve the numbers for covid other than lockdown? BTW I don't like lockdown as it greatly reduced my own personal and business needs but you haven't answered my question.

I buried my uncle a few months back to cancer. He was diagnosed with it a few weeks before he died. Lockdowns and a focus solely on Covid was the reason for it.

I'm not interested in tackling things based solely on Covid, I am only interested in tackling things with a wider view for the benefit of society and you have shown your own weakness there. You don't care about the consequential damage as long as Covid is dealt with. You don't care that the cure could be far worse than the problem.

[Milltown Row2]

They are cancelling operations as there are no flipping ICU beds available ffs!

Mother in-law needs open heart surgery and is stuck in hospital and there are no operations available for a critical much needed life threatening op!

The reason she can't have the surgery is because we have fuckwits out there not giving a dam and going about as if there is no virus!

How dumb can one be?

[Angelo]

Ahh so the genius recommends the "fizzle out" strategy.
I wonder was that what our Government tried in December where cases went from 400 a day up to 5 or 6,000.
Would that be Covid fizzling out?

That would be yet another failed lockdown strategy which just like the first one, did not work.

You're really vocal about Covid but do you care about unemployment, mental health and suicides, domestic violence and other forms of abuse, care services and supports to people with mental and physical disabilities, the education and social development of children etc? You quite clearly seem to be giving those groupings the two fingers because lockdowns will have a very long lasting and serious impact on all those vulernable groupings. But you have no problem throwing your two fingers up at their needs.

Lockdowns worked.

Reasonable restrictions - not so much.

Absolute horseshit.

They have failed, unequivocally.

Reasonable restrictions? Yes absolutely. They have been a complete shambles.

Reasonable restrictions allow for people to go and out and work, for businesses to stay open, for vulnerable groupings to avail of support services, look after their physical and mental health, for domestic abuse victims to have some manner of escape and support from their abuser.

Tell those groupings we need another lockdown.

Reasonable restrictions failed 3 times. Plaese don't tell me you would want to return to that, where people can't be treated in hospital due to stress on the NHS, Where cancer people are dying because of hospitals being overrun, where support services can't operate as  staff are isolating. And on top of that where the death rate is 80K+ above the average.

No one would argue for that surely.

They haven't failed the groupings I've outlined who you have once again dismissed as an irrelevance or an inconvenience.

Cancer patients are dying as a result of lockdowns. Why are Covid patients the priority? Why don't we have a specialist cancer hospital during this where Covid cases are not admitted?

I didn't, We discussed then at length yesterday, you should know you were involved. I just don't intend to do that dance again.

And you've reverted to type again. Covid, covid, covid - forget everything else. Decisions should be made with a big picture outlook. Lockdowns cause a lot more damage than good and I think that's going to show over time.

[trueblue1234]

Angelo, can you fill in the rest of this please, and then show me when we did this that it didn't lead to the numbers rising, and did the numbers rise because we went into lockdown

Another post dismissing any vulnerable grouping that is not a Covid statistic.

There's more to this than people who get Covid you know but f**k them right?

I'm asking a simple question, I'm not arguing with you, as its pointless, just want to know other than the ones I've listed is there something missing? If so we should look at it sensibly and ask for those life saving restrictions to come back into play

But you are completing disregarding any grouping other than Covid.

Another guy who has Covid tunnel vision.

During Lockdown, decisions were made to stop cancer screenings and other appointments. This led to cancer diagnoses dropping rapidly during lockdown periods. We were happy to let cancer spread in people to stop Covid. Why? Cancer kills how many people every year and we abandoned that fight to focus on Covid. We abandoned every other physicla and mental ailment that ravages people every year to focus soleley on Covid. It's ok I suppose we can probably chalk them down as a Covid death at the end of the day to justify it.

They are now cancelling cancer operations due to pressure on the NHS with staff shortages. This is the result of your preferred option. This is what your reasonable restrictions have done.

Point proven - this is what lockdown brings you.

They choose to cancel cancer operations DURING a lockdown.

Why cancel the cancer operation that could save someone's life?

Covid trumps everything and the consequences of such shortsighted vision is of detrimental impact to our society. If you don't have Covid, healthcare is not interested in you.

You know your going under Angelo. Best to leave it. You know why they are cancelling these operations don't you? Cause the NHS can't cope with the level of covid and the staff shortages cause of it. Your lets wash our hands and get on with it theory has been destroyed. And it's a complete clusterfuck and people are dying because of it. We should hang our heads that we didn't lock down sooner and harder. There was plenty of warning but people like you didn't want to see it.