Will you get a Covid vaccine if one becomes available in 2021?

[trileacman]

I should add however whilst I have misgivings about the safety profile of the vaccines I'd still take them. You have to remember the bar for vaccine safety is (quite rightly) very, very high. Where a vaccine proven to cause serious illness in 1 per 10,000 doses it would be pulled from the market and regarded an absolute disaster.

Still as a reasonable person if you're told there's a 1 in 10,000 chance this might do you some harm then you'd have to say that's pretty acceptable. You survive much poorer odds than that every day of the week.

[Rudi]

I don't particularly like the approaches of most of the Western countries to covid vaccine development. Rather surprisingly it's the old tired and test vaccine technologies employed by China that I'd view as being a safer bet than the US/Brit/German vaccine. Whilst mRNA vaccines may prove to be the future of vaccine development their safety profile is as of yet untested especially when you consider they might possibly be rolled out to 1 billion people within 24 months of development. In such a scenario vaccine safety is of the upmost importance.

The mRNA vaccines pretty much hijack your cellular protein machinery to produce many copies of a spike protein. The spike protein is around 1250 amino acids long. The concern is that can this synthetically produced spike protein be cleaved down in to potentially damaging proteins. For example the prion protein that causes BSE/CJD is 250 amino acids long. The Beta amyloid that causes Alzheimer's disease is only 30-40 amino acids long. So potentially you could be giving people a vaccine with effects that may not be visible for years, possibly decades of their lives.

The oxford vaccine is just as bad if not worse. They've piggybacked the spike protein DNA into a chimp virus and then use that chimp virus to infect the cells of the body. Jesus you'd think the whole lesson from coronavirus being that "don't let people catch animal viruses" would have stuck in their heads for more than 2 months. Whilst it's been advertised as a non-replicating simian adenovirus I haven't seen the science behind how they've ensured it's non-replicating. Anyway the non-replicating advantage becomes a moot point if a person is both vaccinated and becomes infected with the simian virus at the same time. In such a scenario you could have potentially married the infectious qualities of Covid with a novel adenovirus. Not a pleasant scenario.

The Chinese vaccine focused on the tried and tested method of simply attenuating the live Covid virus by running it through lines of vero cells. What they've sacrificed in effectiveness they've gained in safety IMO. Even the Russian vaccine operates off a safer platform than the other Western vaccines, unfortunately because they've piggybacked the spike protein DNA into a human coronavirus it's highly likely to be ineffective as a vaccine.

Interesting post, the long term consequences of the vaccine are unknown. Whether the vaccine can deal with all strains or mutations of the virus are also probably unknown also. Given the fact that nearly all under 15s who get Covid have little or no symptoms,  I can understand the reluctance for some parents, to make a conscious decision to not let their kids take the vaccine.

[trileacman]

I don't particularly like the approaches of most of the Western countries to covid vaccine development. Rather surprisingly it's the old tired and test vaccine technologies employed by China that I'd view as being a safer bet than the US/Brit/German vaccine. Whilst mRNA vaccines may prove to be the future of vaccine development their safety profile is as of yet untested especially when you consider they might possibly be rolled out to 1 billion people within 24 months of development. In such a scenario vaccine safety is of the upmost importance.

The mRNA vaccines pretty much hijack your cellular protein machinery to produce many copies of a spike protein. The spike protein is around 1250 amino acids long. The concern is that can this synthetically produced spike protein be cleaved down in to potentially damaging proteins. For example the prion protein that causes BSE/CJD is 250 amino acids long. The Beta amyloid that causes Alzheimer's disease is only 30-40 amino acids long. So potentially you could be giving people a vaccine with effects that may not be visible for years, possibly decades of their lives.

The oxford vaccine is just as bad if not worse. They've piggybacked the spike protein DNA into a chimp virus and then use that chimp virus to infect the cells of the body. Jesus you'd think the whole lesson from coronavirus being that "don't let people catch animal viruses" would have stuck in their heads for more than 2 months. Whilst it's been advertised as a non-replicating simian adenovirus I haven't seen the science behind how they've ensured it's non-replicating. Anyway the non-replicating advantage becomes a moot point if a person is both vaccinated and becomes infected with the simian virus at the same time. In such a scenario you could have potentially married the infectious qualities of Covid with a novel adenovirus. Not a pleasant scenario.

The Chinese vaccine focused on the tried and tested method of simply attenuating the live Covid virus by running it through lines of vero cells. What they've sacrificed in effectiveness they've gained in safety IMO. Even the Russian vaccine operates off a safer platform than the other Western vaccines, unfortunately because they've piggybacked the spike protein DNA into a human coronavirus it's highly likely to be ineffective as a vaccine.

Interesting post, the long term consequences of the vaccine are unknown. Whether the vaccine can deal with all strains or mutations of the virus are also probably unknown also. Given the fact that nearly all under 15s who get Covid have little or no symptoms,  I can understand the reluctance for some parents, to make a conscious decision to not let their kids take the vaccine.

In viral terms Coronavirus mutates very very slowly, the likelihood any that a mutation could lead to a vaccine failure is quite small.

[Rudi]

I don't particularly like the approaches of most of the Western countries to covid vaccine development. Rather surprisingly it's the old tired and test vaccine technologies employed by China that I'd view as being a safer bet than the US/Brit/German vaccine. Whilst mRNA vaccines may prove to be the future of vaccine development their safety profile is as of yet untested especially when you consider they might possibly be rolled out to 1 billion people within 24 months of development. In such a scenario vaccine safety is of the upmost importance.

The mRNA vaccines pretty much hijack your cellular protein machinery to produce many copies of a spike protein. The spike protein is around 1250 amino acids long. The concern is that can this synthetically produced spike protein be cleaved down in to potentially damaging proteins. For example the prion protein that causes BSE/CJD is 250 amino acids long. The Beta amyloid that causes Alzheimer's disease is only 30-40 amino acids long. So potentially you could be giving people a vaccine with effects that may not be visible for years, possibly decades of their lives.

The oxford vaccine is just as bad if not worse. They've piggybacked the spike protein DNA into a chimp virus and then use that chimp virus to infect the cells of the body. Jesus you'd think the whole lesson from coronavirus being that "don't let people catch animal viruses" would have stuck in their heads for more than 2 months. Whilst it's been advertised as a non-replicating simian adenovirus I haven't seen the science behind how they've ensured it's non-replicating. Anyway the non-replicating advantage becomes a moot point if a person is both vaccinated and becomes infected with the simian virus at the same time. In such a scenario you could have potentially married the infectious qualities of Covid with a novel adenovirus. Not a pleasant scenario.

The Chinese vaccine focused on the tried and tested method of simply attenuating the live Covid virus by running it through lines of vero cells. What they've sacrificed in effectiveness they've gained in safety IMO. Even the Russian vaccine operates off a safer platform than the other Western vaccines, unfortunately because they've piggybacked the spike protein DNA into a human coronavirus it's highly likely to be ineffective as a vaccine.

Interesting post, the long term consequences of the vaccine are unknown. Whether the vaccine can deal with all strains or mutations of the virus are also probably unknown also. Given the fact that nearly all under 15s who get Covid have little or no symptoms,  I can understand the reluctance for some parents, to make a conscious decision to not let their kids take the vaccine.

In viral terms Coronavirus mutates very very slowly, the likelihood any that a mutation could lead to a vaccine failure is quite small.

Interesting thanks for the reply.

[LCohen]

I should add however whilst I have misgivings about the safety profile of the vaccines I'd still take them. You have to remember the bar for vaccine safety is (quite rightly) very, very high. Where a vaccine proven to cause serious illness in 1 per 10,000 doses it would be pulled from the market and regarded an absolute disaster.

Still as a reasonable person if you're told there's a 1 in 10,000 chance this might do you some harm then you'd have to say that's pretty acceptable. You survive much poorer odds than that every day of the week.

Good posts. I was unaware that the China vaccine was done on the traditional basis.

I would imagine that ultimately the Chinese and Russian vaccines will be subject to the western approval processes and may get approvals. You never know. I would also be surprised if we are using different vaccines in a years time

[imtommygunn]

It's great to read stuff like this trileacman as opposed to vaccines are evil thanks for that. Very interesting.

[RadioGAAGAA]

The mRNA vaccines pretty much hijack your cellular protein machinery to produce many copies of a spike protein. The spike protein is around 1250 amino acids long. The concern is that can this synthetically produced spike protein be cleaved down in to potentially damaging proteins. For example the prion protein that causes BSE/CJD is 250 amino acids long. The Beta amyloid that causes Alzheimer's disease is only 30-40 amino acids long. So potentially you could be giving people a vaccine with effects that may not be visible for years, possibly decades of their lives.

I'd assume there is a straight relationship between the sequence of the mRNA and the proteins (both in terms of length and combination) - so the question would be "if the mRNA were broken, what would result?"

... given that its a very obvious question, the approving authorities across the world must have considered does the mRNA make up have any sections that could, when broken off from the main mRNA, unintentionally result in dangerous proteins being formed.

[trileacman]

The mRNA vaccines pretty much hijack your cellular protein machinery to produce many copies of a spike protein. The spike protein is around 1250 amino acids long. The concern is that can this synthetically produced spike protein be cleaved down in to potentially damaging proteins. For example the prion protein that causes BSE/CJD is 250 amino acids long. The Beta amyloid that causes Alzheimer's disease is only 30-40 amino acids long. So potentially you could be giving people a vaccine with effects that may not be visible for years, possibly decades of their lives.

I'd assume there is a straight relationship between the sequence of the mRNA and the proteins (both in terms of length and combination) - so the question would be "if the mRNA were broken, what would result?"

... given that its a very obvious question, the approving authorities across the world must have considered does the mRNA make up have any sections that could, when broken off from the main mRNA, unintentionally result in dangerous proteins being formed.

You greatly overestimate science. For example, the precise mechanism by which Alzheimers disease erodes and destroys brain tissue is unknown. They know protein content buildup in the brain slowly destroys the tissue but the protein responsible is still a mystery. While the evidence points to Beta Amyloid being a component of it, it's still a mystery whether it is beta Amyloid, some fraction cleaved off Beta amyloid or a metabolite of either. For a major disease that's a serious blind spot. Same can be said for motor neurone disease and Parkinsons, the absolute cause of both these diseases are unknown.

So it's impossible to look at a protein or mRNA chain and say that's safe or that one isn't.

Another thing to consider is the competence of people making these vaccines. AstraZeneca is a 60 billion pound company with 70,000 employees yet in making the most media scrutinised vaccine known to man they managed to;
1 - calculate the incorrect dose of the vaccine to be given,
2 - not realise their mistake until they'd almost completed clinical trials.
3 - change the dose to a half dose.
4 - discover that the half dose is more effective
5 - not have a f**king clue why the 1/2 dose was more effective.

By anyone's measure that is a series of absolute c**k-ups, there is zero chance these guys could look at a protein structure and definitively say "that won't cause any issues".

[Angelo]

Looks like the new don't look at the No Deal UK strain might need a new vaccine!

Looks like Seany/Angelo needs to delete another of their Covid theories.

The US surgeon general does not think the variant will be immune to the vaccine.

The deputy head of Europe's biology laboratory researching Covid 19 also does not think the new strain will be immune to any vaccine but will do tests to confirm

My concerns are over the safety of the vaccine, not its effectiveness.

You should pay more attention.

[dublin7]

Looks like the new don't look at the No Deal UK strain might need a new vaccine!

Looks like Seany/Angelo needs to delete another of their Covid theories.

The US surgeon general does not think the variant will be immune to the vaccine.

The deputy head of Europe's biology laboratory researching Covid 19 also does not think the new strain will be immune to any vaccine but will do tests to confirm

My concerns are over the safety of the vaccine, not its effectiveness.

You should pay more attention.

Course they are. I won't even bother asking you to point out these issues as you'll just do what you always do and claim you've stated them previously.

[thebigfella]

The mRNA vaccines pretty much hijack your cellular protein machinery to produce many copies of a spike protein. The spike protein is around 1250 amino acids long. The concern is that can this synthetically produced spike protein be cleaved down in to potentially damaging proteins. For example the prion protein that causes BSE/CJD is 250 amino acids long. The Beta amyloid that causes Alzheimer's disease is only 30-40 amino acids long. So potentially you could be giving people a vaccine with effects that may not be visible for years, possibly decades of their lives.

I'd assume there is a straight relationship between the sequence of the mRNA and the proteins (both in terms of length and combination) - so the question would be "if the mRNA were broken, what would result?"

... given that its a very obvious question, the approving authorities across the world must have considered does the mRNA make up have any sections that could, when broken off from the main mRNA, unintentionally result in dangerous proteins being formed.

You greatly overestimate science. For example, the precise mechanism by which Alzheimers disease erodes and destroys brain tissue is unknown. They know protein content buildup in the brain slowly destroys the tissue but the protein responsible is still a mystery. While the evidence points to Beta Amyloid being a component of it, it's still a mystery whether it is beta Amyloid, some fraction cleaved off Beta amyloid or a metabolite of either. For a major disease that's a serious blind spot. Same can be said for motor neurone disease and Parkinsons, the absolute cause of both these diseases are unknown.

So it's impossible to look at a protein or mRNA chain and say that's safe or that one isn't.

Another thing to consider is the competence of people making these vaccines. AstraZeneca is a 60 billion pound company with 70,000 employees yet in making the most media scrutinised vaccine known to man they managed to;
1 - calculate the incorrect dose of the vaccine to be given,
2 - not realise their mistake until they'd almost completed clinical trials.
3 - change the dose to a half dose.
4 - discover that the half dose is more effective
5 - not have a f**king clue why the 1/2 dose was more effective.

By anyone's measure that is a series of absolute c**k-ups, there is zero chance these guys could look at a protein structure and definitively say "that won't cause any issues".

The half dose was attributed to a manufacturing error and not the science behind vaccine but don't let that get in the way of misinformation. In any trial it could just as easily be a person administrating the dosage by not reading packaging/instructions correctly.

Also I believe it was being manufactured by a private contractor too which is pretty standard practice I'm the industry. AstraZeneca did realise the mistake early on (weeks before the 2nd dose was to be administered) and reported it to the appropriate bodies; who in turn gave them the go ahead to continue with the original trial as it still met the desired criteria set out by the "trial" and there was no risk to the volunteers. Manufacturing issues and FDA recalls are more common than you think; 99% of the time you never hear about them. 

They do have a hypothesis of why the half dose is more effective but at the time this was announced there was wasn't enough evidence or data to confirm that hypothesis - hence why further trials are being carried out and more data collected. It's not accurate to say they don't have a f**king clue.

[Milltown Row2]

Based on a lot of written information on vaccines and the 'experts' we have here, all vaccines will have an affect on everyone, some minor to the point of nothing of any note and others at the other extreme (those with the reaction lately) will have a bad outcome, I hope the ones that took the bad reaction have recovered and doing well after that serious scare.

What's best? Look after ourselves, wash sanitize and have limited time with people, bars and cafes and the like shut until 10 years down the line when we have a better idea of the long term effects (if any) of these vaccines. 

Do we close down the country like New Zealand, limit people coming in and have massive testing and tracing programs for the length it takes to suit the reviews of the vaccines

Or do we get the vaccine that's been passed, by the methods they use to pass all vaccines?

Looking forward to 2 weeks off work!

[Angelo]

Looks like the new don't look at the No Deal UK strain might need a new vaccine!

Looks like Seany/Angelo needs to delete another of their Covid theories.

The US surgeon general does not think the variant will be immune to the vaccine.

The deputy head of Europe's biology laboratory researching Covid 19 also does not think the new strain will be immune to any vaccine but will do tests to confirm

My concerns are over the safety of the vaccine, not its effectiveness.

You should pay more attention.

Course they are. I won't even bother asking you to point out these issues as you'll just do what you always do and claim you've stated them previously.

Because I have stated them repeatedly on here.

I've told you how big pharma are only interested in the bottom line, how they regularly bribe approvers, doctors and medical institutions to promote and sanction drugs they know they are severe concerns of. They have received world record fines after being caught doing so. We also know this is an unprecedented turnaround for a vaccine that there is huge pressure on to be approved.

So my concerns are genuine, I have stated them, substantiated them repeatedly and you continue to ignore what is there in front of you.

There are multiple posts on here where I have substantiated my view. This is me repeating myself for idiots like you again and again.

[thebigfella]

Looks like the new don't look at the No Deal UK strain might need a new vaccine!

Looks like Seany/Angelo needs to delete another of their Covid theories.

The US surgeon general does not think the variant will be immune to the vaccine.

The deputy head of Europe's biology laboratory researching Covid 19 also does not think the new strain will be immune to any vaccine but will do tests to confirm

My concerns are over the safety of the vaccine, not its effectiveness.

You should pay more attention.

Course they are. I won't even bother asking you to point out these issues as you'll just do what you always do and claim you've stated them previously.

Because I have stated them repeatedly on here.

I've told you how big pharma are only interested in the bottom line, how they regularly bribe approvers, doctors and medical institutions to promote and sanction drugs they know they are severe concerns of. They have received world record fines after being caught doing so. We also know this is an unprecedented turnaround for a vaccine that there is huge pressure on to be approved.

So my concerns are genuine, I have stated them, substantiated them repeatedly and you continue to ignore what is there in front of you.

There are multiple posts on here where I have substantiated my view. This is me repeating myself for idiots like you again and again.

You are not a source.

[Angelo]

Looks like the new don't look at the No Deal UK strain might need a new vaccine!

Looks like Seany/Angelo needs to delete another of their Covid theories.

The US surgeon general does not think the variant will be immune to the vaccine.

The deputy head of Europe's biology laboratory researching Covid 19 also does not think the new strain will be immune to any vaccine but will do tests to confirm

My concerns are over the safety of the vaccine, not its effectiveness.

You should pay more attention.

Course they are. I won't even bother asking you to point out these issues as you'll just do what you always do and claim you've stated them previously.

Because I have stated them repeatedly on here.

I've told you how big pharma are only interested in the bottom line, how they regularly bribe approvers, doctors and medical institutions to promote and sanction drugs they know they are severe concerns of. They have received world record fines after being caught doing so. We also know this is an unprecedented turnaround for a vaccine that there is huge pressure on to be approved.

So my concerns are genuine, I have stated them, substantiated them repeatedly and you continue to ignore what is there in front of you.

There are multiple posts on here where I have substantiated my view. This is me repeating myself for idiots like you again and again.

You are not a source.

I've provided the links to all of the above. It just suits some people to ignore that.