The Official Lisbon Treaty Thread

[Zapatista]

The title allows those in the six countys to vote.

You can change your vote as time goes as I am sure we will all learn something new about it before the referendum.

[SouthArmaghBandit]

Could you not post some details on the main issues. I know nothing about it and I would follow current affairs. I sure there's a lot of others in the same boat.

[Zapatista]

I could, but I would only be posting the translation and point of view of others.

As is normal with any proposal on treaty change they is a copy of the old treaty, the new treaty and a document outlining the difference between the two. However the European Council have outlawed the copy containing the difference until after the treaty is accepted or rejected by the 27 member states.

I believe some independent groups are funding and putting together a third document but it is not available yet due to the complexity of the two treaty documents. When it is available I will post a link to it.

For now I would like the debate to grow with the Yes and No campaigns.

[SouthArmaghBandit]

Ok. Let's go back to basics. What the f**k is a Lsibon Treaty?

[AZOffaly]

It's woeful complicated, but basically it's another attempt to push through a pseudo European Constitution after that was defeated in referenda in France and Holland.

It's not really a new treaty as such, as Zapatista said, it's more a series of amalgamations and amendments to other treaties, namely the Treaty of the European Union and the Treaty to Establish the European Community.

There's a pile of stuff here......

http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/index_en.htm *This site is obviously promoting the treaty, so is not objective.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon

[Zapatista]

The Lisbon Treaty is a redraft of the EU Constitution. The Constitution requires referendum from most 27 member States. As it has been rejected by France and the Netherlands it meant there was no need for a referendum here as it had already fallen due to France and the Netherlands.

The Constitution was then redrafted to take out the details that made it subject to referendum in all States except this one (There was very nearly no referendum here). As our Constitution makes us a Neutral Country and empowers the people to make decision's on International treaty's it would have left a huge legal challenge if the Government where not to hold a referendum (they looked very Hard at this option). It has been changed in very little but name and instead of a Constitution it is now called a treaty.

It is basically to empower the EU to act like an Independent State. If passed the EU could represent the ROI on the Global stage in areas such as Defence and take a seat on the UN among many other powers.

[AZOffaly]

Can you answer this. If the EU 'state' decided to go to war with Iran, for example, would all member states be obliged to send troops? Are we essentially removing any element of neutrality?

Will the EU have an army itself, including volunteers etc, or will it draw on constituent countries' armies, and will those countries have to supply people and munitions if asked?

[Aristotle Flynn]

So why are you against it exactly?

Ireland has done very well out of the EU thank you very much. We don't want a load of long haired malcontents ruining our relations with the rest of Europe.

[AZOffaly]

Who is against it?

[Zapatista]

Can you answer this. If the EU 'state' decided to go to war with Iran, for example, would all member states be obliged to send troops? Are we essentially removing any element of neutrality?

Will the EU have an army itself, including volunteers etc, or will it draw on constituent countries' armies, and will those countries have to supply people and munitions if asked?

All member States would be obliged to fund the war and publically announce their support for the action wether they support it or not.. It is difficult to know if they would have to send troops, it will depend on how the text is interpreted afterwards. It claims all members will have to provide troops for the Rapid action Force and peace keeping and disarmament missions ( the later like Iraq was) but the EU will concider independent State policy while on attack missions.

The Eu will have an army and a foreign affairs minister able to make decisions like any independent state.

So why are you against it exactly?

Ireland has done very well out of the EU thank you very much. We don't want a load of long haired malcontents ruining our relations with the rest of Europe.

I didn't say I oppose it.

Ireland has done well and will continue to do well. No one is getting kicked out of the EU. The EU has done well from Ireland too. And if it's not broke why fix it? It is worth noting that in some polls 70% of EU citizens oppose the Treaty , so to oppose it would be the wish of the EU as a democracy.

[AZOffaly]

The Eu will have an army and a foreign affairs minister able to make decisions like any independent state.

But who will make up the army? Will the EU army recruit from school in the same way the Irish Army, British Army etc does, via cadetships etc, or will it lay claim to a certain percentage of the individual countries' standing armies?

[Zapatista]

The Eu will have an army and a foreign affairs minister able to make decisions like any independent state.

But who will make up the army? Will the EU army recruit from school in the same way the Irish Army, British Army etc does, via cadetships etc, or will it lay claim to a certain percentage of the individual countries' standing armies?

The point of an EU army is subject to interpretation too as since the Constitution feel in France and the Netherlands the part about EU symbols eg flag for a united army has been withdrawn to not effect the Constitution of some member States.

They will not need to lay claim as we will give the troops. The army will be made up of troops donated from all EU states. However, it's unclear where or how many troops would be deployed as the interpretation of the treaty is not clear and can mean different things to different States. Larger armies such as France and Germany will take on larger tasks but Ireland will be mandated to increase military spending to reach an EU quota. It is unclear too how much Britain would provide as they are currently at war.

[Gnevin]

Can you answer this. If the EU 'state' decided to go to war with Iran, for example, would all member states be obliged to send troops? Are we essentially removing any element of neutrality?

Will the EU have an army itself, including volunteers etc, or will it draw on constituent countries' armies, and will those countries have to supply people and munitions if asked?

No we won't
The EU defense force will be like the UN made up of other countries army's . I think its for the best the sooner we are able to engage in peace keeping missions with out the US dragging its feet the better

[AZOffaly]

If it's a sort of peacekeeping unit, I'd have no great objections, but if it is a standing EU army, then I would have some reservations, on the basis that if the EU state determines that we should attack Iran, or help the US in Iraq or whatever, then Irish soldiers could be caught up in that.

[Gnevin]

If it's a sort of peacekeeping unit, I'd have no great objections, but if it is a standing EU army, then I would have some reservations, on the basis that if the EU state determines that we should attack Iran, or help the US in Iraq or whatever, then Irish soldiers could be caught up in that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Foreign_and_Security_Policy#Future
We have an opt out of any military action taken by the EU from the last referendum