Author Topic: The US policing crisis thread  (Read 76872 times)

whitey

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Re: The US policing crisis thread
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2015, 03:41:41 PM »
How many years are you in the States whitey? From your posts I'm guessing a substantial amount of time. I was there from 1997 to 2001, and I certainly cannot remember ANYTHING approaching the army worship and crocodile 'tears' of appreciation (if that's not an oxymoron) that you see now.

I was a season ticket holder with the Cardinals, and went to a lot of Coyotes, Suns and Diamondbacks games, and the most militaristic thing I ever saw in that time was a couple of 'fly overs' and the odd trooping of the colour for the anthem.

The uniform decals on helmets, the honouring of 'our troops', the welcomes home, etc etc are all relatively new developments. The Padres even have a bloody Khaki uniform they wear for games where they honour the  'military'. It seems just so cynical to my eyes, looking on from here.

21 years so I was here pre 9/11.

Pre 9/11 the country was not on a war footing....now it is (for better or worse) and so these displays are to be expected. As a Cardinals fan, I'm sure you can appreciate the enormity of what Pat Tillman did, by packing in his career and signing up.  What he did would be so alien to anyone from Ireland or England that they couldn't even comprhend such a decision.

I probably over use it, but when I use the term "viewed through a different prism" that's what I'm tal referring to. That need and desire to serve is ingrained in the DNA of the country and that's why the military is vowed as sacred by so many

(how he Tillman story need is of course a whole our story)

Is that not precisely what many professional footballers in the UK did in WWI and WWII? Before conscription? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Battalion

And you say the country is now on a 'war' footing. That's my whole point, it's only on a war footing because it's is all the time in your face. And God help you for being 'UnAmerican' if you happen to disagree with it.

I know an Irish-American lad, right wing zealot, proud ex- Marine and otherwise nice guy, who proudly told me how he kicked some Irish cousins out of his house, never to speak to them again,  around the time of the Iraq war build-up for having the nerve to say that US foreign policy may have contributed to 9/11.

Well most Irish people I know think that because the US supports Israel, they are a legitimate target for attack from the Islamic world. They're absolutely entitled to their opinion. The people, who in my opinion, express this view the loudest weren't shy about relying on the very same (Irish)Americans for arms and cash when they were engaged in their most recent struggle. Those in glass house and all that

AZOffaly

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Re: The US policing crisis thread
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2015, 03:42:53 PM »
I know how he died. I don't think that was whitey's point in fairness.

He claimed that no one from Ireland could even comprehend his decision, as if it were some sort of higher function. We could point to any number of Irish people who gave up their lives for their country. Presumably his celebrity makes him better than others.

But I prefer to highlight the complete pointlessness of it. He died a young man, killed by those he volunteered to serve.

I think I've addressed the fact that only Americans could think like that. And I agree about how ironically futile it was to throw away a young life. My point is that the American public are all the time being encouraged to follow his lead, and others, in order to fulfill American foreign policy. That's why I say it's a cynical sort of 'appreciation for your service'.

I think a good example is the cover up of how he died actually. They really didn't want it to come out that not only was it a waste of life, but it was wasted by themselves.

muppet

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Re: The US policing crisis thread
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2015, 03:43:55 PM »
You're missing my point. They would have been paid relatively well for the era they were in, and would undoubtedly have had status in the eyes of their fans and their peers. Of course you can't compare their earnings potential, but as recognisable figures in their society, they were similar. You said it would never 'occur' to someone like that outside the states, and I'm pointing out that not only has it occured, but it happened nearly 100 years before Pat.

Anyway, it's a slight tangent. I believe Americans are partly the way they are because of what they are being force fed all around them. I don't deny what they are. I just think their 'nurture' in the form of the propoganda even from sporting organisations and corporations, not just from the government and government influenced media, is making them far more pliable.

As I said before, if the US was really such an appreciative place for their servicemen and women, the vets from Vietnam would not have been fucked out on the street to fend for themselves, and the incidents you yourself have mentioned would not have happened. You're making my point for me. It's all a sham. They don't really appreciate anyone's service, they just want others to continue serving in the same way.

This is exactly it.

Thank you for your service but now f*ck off for yourself.




Whitey actually emphasised the poor treatment of ex-servicemen earlier.
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muppet

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Re: The US policing crisis thread
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2015, 03:49:26 PM »
Well most Irish people I know think that because the US supports Israel, they are a legitimate target for attack from the Islamic world. They're absolutely entitled to their opinion. The people, who in my opinion, express this view the loudest weren't shy about relying on the very same (Irish)Americans for arms and cash when they were engaged in their most recent struggle. Those in glass house and all that

If you help bomb people back into the stone age, then expect blowback. Legitimacy is irrelevant. If you kick a stray dog enough it will bite you. That is not saying that it is right, just that it will happen.

Arguing about legitimacy is missing the point.
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whitey

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Re: The US policing crisis thread
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2015, 03:54:36 PM »
You're missing my point. They would have been paid relatively well for the era they were in, and would undoubtedly have had status in the eyes of their fans and their peers. Of course you can't compare their earnings potential, but as recognisable figures in their society, they were similar. You said it would never 'occur' to someone like that outside the states, and I'm pointing out that not only has it occured, but it happened nearly 100 years before Pat.

Anyway, it's a slight tangent. I believe Americans are partly the way they are because of what they are being force fed all around them. I don't deny what they are. I just think their 'nurture' in the form of the propoganda even from sporting organisations and corporations, not just from the government and government influenced media, is making them far more pliable.

As I said before, if the US was really such an appreciative place for their servicemen and women, the vets from Vietnam would not have been fucked out on the street to fend for themselves, and the incidents you yourself have mentioned would not have happened. You're making my point for me. It's all a sham. They don't really appreciate anyone's service, they just want others to continue serving in the same way.

Still don't hink it's an apples to apples comparison-Name me one player from the Premiership who gave up a muti million pound contract to the Army and serve in an active service unit.

Either way this made for some interesting reading

http://spartacus-educational.com/2WWfootball.htm

AZOffaly

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Re: The US policing crisis thread
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2015, 03:59:29 PM »
You're missing my point. They would have been paid relatively well for the era they were in, and would undoubtedly have had status in the eyes of their fans and their peers. Of course you can't compare their earnings potential, but as recognisable figures in their society, they were similar. You said it would never 'occur' to someone like that outside the states, and I'm pointing out that not only has it occured, but it happened nearly 100 years before Pat.

Anyway, it's a slight tangent. I believe Americans are partly the way they are because of what they are being force fed all around them. I don't deny what they are. I just think their 'nurture' in the form of the propoganda even from sporting organisations and corporations, not just from the government and government influenced media, is making them far more pliable.

As I said before, if the US was really such an appreciative place for their servicemen and women, the vets from Vietnam would not have been fucked out on the street to fend for themselves, and the incidents you yourself have mentioned would not have happened. You're making my point for me. It's all a sham. They don't really appreciate anyone's service, they just want others to continue serving in the same way.

Still don't hink it's an apples to apples comparison-Name me one player from the Premiership who gave up a muti million pound contract to the Army and serve in an active service unit.

Either way this made for some interesting reading

http://spartacus-educational.com/2WWfootball.htm

To be honest, I think we've had enough of this tangent. It's not really relevant to the point anymore. You said it simply wouldn't occur, I pointed out that it has occured in the past. Now you speak about Premiership Footballers, so I'll ask about NBA players, any other NFL players, MLB players etc etc.

Pat Tillman did something that was unusual, but it is not representative of all American Athletes, nor is it unique to just Americans.

That's it as far as I'm concerned.

Now as for why your average Joe in the states appears to be so in thrall to the uniform, I still believe it is because he is told to be that way every single where he looks. Even his heroes of the gridiron or the diamond tell him. It would be hard *not* to be with all that going on. And that is the cynicism I refer to, because as we have all pointed out, despite the lip service, the US treats its Vets deplorably.

whitey

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Re: The US policing crisis thread
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2015, 03:59:38 PM »
Well most Irish people I know think that because the US supports Israel, they are a legitimate target for attack from the Islamic world. They're absolutely entitled to their opinion. The people, who in my opinion, express this view the loudest weren't shy about relying on the very same (Irish)Americans for arms and cash when they were engaged in their most recent struggle. Those in glass house and all that

If you help bomb people back into the stone age, then expect blowback. Legitimacy is irrelevant. If you kick a stray dog enough it will bite you. That is not saying that it is right, just that it will happen.

Arguing about legitimacy is missing the point.
[/quote

So when exactly did the Irish have this awakening? The U.S. has been supporting Israel since the 1940s.  Quite convenient that they had their "come to Jesus moment" after they no longer needed arms or money from America-LOL

muppet

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Re: The US policing crisis thread
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2015, 04:01:48 PM »
You're missing my point. They would have been paid relatively well for the era they were in, and would undoubtedly have had status in the eyes of their fans and their peers. Of course you can't compare their earnings potential, but as recognisable figures in their society, they were similar. You said it would never 'occur' to someone like that outside the states, and I'm pointing out that not only has it occured, but it happened nearly 100 years before Pat.

Anyway, it's a slight tangent. I believe Americans are partly the way they are because of what they are being force fed all around them. I don't deny what they are. I just think their 'nurture' in the form of the propoganda even from sporting organisations and corporations, not just from the government and government influenced media, is making them far more pliable.

As I said before, if the US was really such an appreciative place for their servicemen and women, the vets from Vietnam would not have been fucked out on the street to fend for themselves, and the incidents you yourself have mentioned would not have happened. You're making my point for me. It's all a sham. They don't really appreciate anyone's service, they just want others to continue serving in the same way.

Still don't hink it's an apples to apples comparison-Name me one player from the Premiership who gave up a muti million pound contract to the Army and serve in an active service unit.

Either way this made for some interesting reading

http://spartacus-educational.com/2WWfootball.htm

Is it the celebrity goes to war element that fascinates you?

Many of our Gaa players are in the army and have served in war zones. The Earlys spring to mind.

Or is it that he turned his back on his big earning potential and planned to risk his life at war for a few years?

That is hardly unique either.

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AZOffaly

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Re: The US policing crisis thread
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2015, 04:02:45 PM »
Jaysus whitey, we're jumping around like fleas on a blanket here :) You're on about Noraid now? What's that got to do with whether Americans are being brainwashed into a sham of support for their servicemen and women?

macdanger2

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Re: The US policing crisis thread
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2015, 04:03:02 PM »
Muppet, can you ever have a discussion without this complete insistence that you're right all the time and no other point of view is relevant?

Not sure if you mean to do it or if it's just the way you discuss things but it makes you come across as one hell of an annoying c*nt.


whitey

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Re: The US policing crisis thread
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2015, 04:04:53 PM »
You're missing my point. They would have been paid relatively well for the era they were in, and would undoubtedly have had status in the eyes of their fans and their peers. Of course you can't compare their earnings potential, but as recognisable figures in their society, they were similar. You said it would never 'occur' to someone like that outside the states, and I'm pointing out that not only has it occured, but it happened nearly 100 years before Pat.

Anyway, it's a slight tangent. I believe Americans are partly the way they are because of what they are being force fed all around them. I don't deny what they are. I just think their 'nurture' in the form of the propoganda even from sporting organisations and corporations, not just from the government and government influenced media, is making them far more pliable.

As I said before, if the US was really such an appreciative place for their servicemen and women, the vets from Vietnam would not have been fucked out on the street to fend for themselves, and the incidents you yourself have mentioned would not have happened. You're making my point for me. It's all a sham. They don't really appreciate anyone's service, they just want others to continue serving in the same way.

Still don't hink it's an apples to apples comparison-Name me one player from the Premiership who gave up a muti million pound contract to the Army and serve in an active service unit.

Either way this made for some interesting reading

http://spartacus-educational.com/2WWfootball.htm

Is it the celebrity goes to war element that fascinates you?

Many of our Gaa players are in the army and have served in war zones. The Earlys spring to mind.

Or is it that he turned his back on his big earning potential and planned to risk his life at war for a few years?

That is hardly unique either.

While I respect the Irish peacekeeping missions you're not seriously making that comparison are you? LOL.  A good few served in the FCA too while you're at it

muppet

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Re: The US policing crisis thread
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2015, 04:05:06 PM »
Well most Irish people I know think that because the US supports Israel, they are a legitimate target for attack from the Islamic world. They're absolutely entitled to their opinion. The people, who in my opinion, express this view the loudest weren't shy about relying on the very same (Irish)Americans for arms and cash when they were engaged in their most recent struggle. Those in glass house and all that

If you help bomb people back into the stone age, then expect blowback. Legitimacy is irrelevant. If you kick a stray dog enough it will bite you. That is not saying that it is right, just that it will happen.

Arguing about legitimacy is missing the point.

So when exactly did the Irish have this awakening? The U.S. has been supporting Israel since the 1940s.  Quite convenient that they had their "come to Jesus moment" after they no longer needed arms or money from America-LOL

Ireland refused to establish relations with Israel until 1975, due to their on-going violations of UN resolutions.

So in conclusion, you have no argument.
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AZOffaly

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Re: The US policing crisis thread
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2015, 04:06:45 PM »
You're missing my point. They would have been paid relatively well for the era they were in, and would undoubtedly have had status in the eyes of their fans and their peers. Of course you can't compare their earnings potential, but as recognisable figures in their society, they were similar. You said it would never 'occur' to someone like that outside the states, and I'm pointing out that not only has it occured, but it happened nearly 100 years before Pat.

Anyway, it's a slight tangent. I believe Americans are partly the way they are because of what they are being force fed all around them. I don't deny what they are. I just think their 'nurture' in the form of the propoganda even from sporting organisations and corporations, not just from the government and government influenced media, is making them far more pliable.

As I said before, if the US was really such an appreciative place for their servicemen and women, the vets from Vietnam would not have been fucked out on the street to fend for themselves, and the incidents you yourself have mentioned would not have happened. You're making my point for me. It's all a sham. They don't really appreciate anyone's service, they just want others to continue serving in the same way.

Still don't hink it's an apples to apples comparison-Name me one player from the Premiership who gave up a muti million pound contract to the Army and serve in an active service unit.

Either way this made for some interesting reading

http://spartacus-educational.com/2WWfootball.htm

Is it the celebrity goes to war element that fascinates you?

Many of our Gaa players are in the army and have served in war zones. The Earlys spring to mind.

Or is it that he turned his back on his big earning potential and planned to risk his life at war for a few years?

That is hardly unique either.

In fairness, I don't like having a go at Pat Tillman per se. I hope it's not coming off as that. I watched Tillman play, and I remember him in ASU. He was an iconic figure in Arizona before he ever went to join the Marines. What he did was extremely principled, and brave. While I question a lot of the US foreign policy, and the reason he found himself in that situation, I don't think I want to question his own personal motivation or bravery. And in terms of sacrifice, what he gave up financially, even if he returned home 100% fine, was a massive statement.

So I'd prefer not to linger on Pat, other than to say that while what he did was definitely brave and noteworthy, plenty of other people have served in Armies around the world having been professional sportsmen or sportstars of note.

whitey

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Re: The US policing crisis thread
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2015, 04:06:53 PM »
Well most Irish people I know think that because the US supports Israel, they are a legitimate target for attack from the Islamic world. They're absolutely entitled to their opinion. The people, who in my opinion, express this view the loudest weren't shy about relying on the very same (Irish)Americans for arms and cash when they were engaged in their most recent struggle. Those in glass house and all that

If you help bomb people back into the stone age, then expect blowback. Legitimacy is irrelevant. If you kick a stray dog enough it will bite you. That is not saying that it is right, just that it will happen.

Arguing about legitimacy is missing the point.

So when exactly did the Irish have this awakening? The U.S. has been supporting Israel since the 1940s.  Quite convenient that they had their "come to Jesus moment" after they no longer needed arms or money from America-LOL

Ireland refused to establish relations with Israel until 1975, due to their on-going violations of UN resolutions.

So in conclusion, you have no argument.

muppet

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Re: The US policing crisis thread
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2015, 04:06:58 PM »
Muppet, can you ever have a discussion without this complete insistence that you're right all the time and no other point of view is relevant?

Not sure if you mean to do it or if it's just the way you discuss things but it makes you come across as one hell of an annoying c*nt.

Please show me an example of  'this complete insistence that you're right all the time'. I am simply making my points like everyone else.

If you disagree with them, fine. But your post above is reads exactly of what you accuse me of.
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