The next 10 all Irelands

[BennyCake]

I Can't remember how far we were behind v Monaghan , but it looked over long before the end. Then we come back and take the lead,  and I thought frig this is great , we're going to do this! Then Monaghan get a couple of scores near the end  to nick the win.

And even though  I was bloody gutted , and that was our year over, I knew that it was right. Our year was over. No back doors, side doors  or cat flaps. We were gone. Cracking game, we shipped 4 goals, came back and nearly won it. But it was only right that that was it. The end. That's how it should be.

You don't get the same intensity, excitement, passion in super 8's, back doors or diluted championships with a second chance the following week. And you won't get that winner takes all, the euphoria of winning a do or die clash, nor will  you get the gut wrenching defeat and knowing your year is oveR

[Cunny Funt]

Straight knockout and provincials not linked to the All Ireland are a must. Look at Kerry's route to the semi final vs Tyrones.

For many counties the provincial championships is their All-Ireland. For example look at the great interest there was in the build up to Ulster final for Fermanagh or the scenes of pure joy when the likes of Monaghan, Roscommon, Tipperary and Cavan won recent provincial titles can those scenes be reproduced with a straight knock out format?

The provincial championships not liked to the All-Ireland will become pre season competitions whereby managers will play 2nd or 3rd string sides in those games. All that history and tradition simply binned.

If a Connacht title means as much as you say, teams won't play their 2nd and 3rd strings.

Or does it only mean so much because it's a very handy way for the Connacht champions to reach the latter stages of the AI?

Means that much when connected to the main championship and its a competition that has a long history and tradition.


Stand alone the Connacht championship will basically make it like the FBD.  More than likely a number of subs/extended panelists will be given a run out, trials on new formations and styles of play will be done in preparation for the championship/league coming up afterwards.

Year one should still get decent crowds but won't be long before the many 1000s that attended provincial championships games will become a few hundred.

People said the same when the back door was introduced.  Teams being able to lose would diminish the competition.
The FBD is being abolished for the moment, no matter what the championship format is. If the new league/championship format is brought in, the provincials are replacing the old league, not the FBD.
Same cups, same medals. There are no asterisks beside provincial wins post back door introduction. And there'll be no need for asterisks afterwards. It might be harder for some Connacht teams to make an All Ireland semi. It will definitely be harder for Kerry and Dublin. That's a good thing.
The current provincial system is very unfair to the Ulster counties

The back door definitely diminished provincial titles to an extent. Like if you're Waterford hurlers winning Munster for the first time in 39 years in 2002 and then getting beaten by Clare in the All-Ireland semi-final are you telling me it didn't leave a sour taste? Or Waterford being beaten by Limerick after winning Munster in 2007?

Or what about Tyrone being beaten by Derry in the 2001 All-Ireland quarter-final after beating them on the way to winning Ulster? The same with Roscommon the same year. Monaghan getting beaten by Tyrone after winning Ulster in 2013 and 2015.

Of course it diminished it to an extent. But it still wasn't meaningless. An Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition in the muck and the rain of February is not an Ulster championship, it's a McKenna Cup.

A championship run off under a league system will suit Dublin and Kerry more than anybody.

Covered a lot of the points I have going to make. Winning Connacht under this new format will likely mean as much as winning the FBD.

Getting rid of the pre season competitions for 2022 before any new format has been rubber stamped is a big hint of HQ already knowing the proposal they want will be finalised.

[Rossfan]

Can other proposals be put on the clár of the October Congress?
2 problems with Provincials being an integral part of AI- Kerry have 5 hurling Counties to glide by most years; A Connacht team can get into last 12 by batin Laythrum (Ros 2017, 2018)

[J70]

Straight knockout and provincials not linked to the All Ireland are a must. Look at Kerry's route to the semi final vs Tyrones.

For many counties the provincial championships is their All-Ireland. For example look at the great interest there was in the build up to Ulster final for Fermanagh or the scenes of pure joy when the likes of Monaghan, Roscommon, Tipperary and Cavan won recent provincial titles can those scenes be reproduced with a straight knock out format?

The provincial championships not liked to the All-Ireland will become pre season competitions whereby managers will play 2nd or 3rd string sides in those games. All that history and tradition simply binned.

If a Connacht title means as much as you say, teams won't play their 2nd and 3rd strings.

Or does it only mean so much because it's a very handy way for the Connacht champions to reach the latter stages of the AI?

Means that much when connected to the main championship and its a competition that has a long history and tradition.


Stand alone the Connacht championship will basically make it like the FBD.  More than likely a number of subs/extended panelists will be given a run out, trials on new formations and styles of play will be done in preparation for the championship/league coming up afterwards.

Year one should still get decent crowds but won't be long before the many 1000s that attended provincial championships games will become a few hundred.

People said the same when the back door was introduced.  Teams being able to lose would diminish the competition.
The FBD is being abolished for the moment, no matter what the championship format is. If the new league/championship format is brought in, the provincials are replacing the old league, not the FBD.
Same cups, same medals. There are no asterisks beside provincial wins post back door introduction. And there'll be no need for asterisks afterwards. It might be harder for some Connacht teams to make an All Ireland semi. It will definitely be harder for Kerry and Dublin. That's a good thing.
The current provincial system is very unfair to the Ulster counties

Yeah, but we love it because it IS hard to win.

Only less than satisfying Ulster win I can remember for Donegal was 2018, when we won without beating either of the other two strong-at-the-time counties, Monaghan and Tyrone (and we then lost to Tyrone in the Super 8s). It just seemed a bit too handy and hollow. I would imagine Tyrone, even if they hadn't won it all this year, would still be happy enough with a hard-earned Ulster title.

That said, I'm not against trying other formats and seeing how they go overall.

[seafoid]

Straight knockout and provincials not linked to the All Ireland are a must. Look at Kerry's route to the semi final vs Tyrones.

Would you not have loved if Armagh had a backdoor this year to get at least one more game to see how they are progressing?

The new SFC League system is interesting, and the intercounty players have given it the thumbs up.

Firstly a standalone provincial championship.

Then the new All Ireland SFC League.
Same four NFL divisions.
Each team would have an opportunity to win the Sam Maguire Cup but only the top five in Division 1, top three in Division 2 and Division 3 and 4 winners will advance to the knockout stages (top five in Division 1 and Division 2 winners would go straight into the quarter-finals, the other four facing off in preliminary quarter-finals for the remaining two places).

So you need to qualify for the last 10 by having a good league. Then it's straight knockout.

There are naysayers saying that it would be better to be in Division 4 than Division 1, and how can it be fair to have Leitrim win Division 4 and qualify and Galway come 6th in Division 1 and not qualify, when clearly Galway are better than Leitrim? But that's part of the beauty of the new system, to give an underdog/small county their chance. And Galway (or whoever comes 6th, 7th, 8th) will have had 7 games to try and get into the top 5. If they can't, then they deserve to be out.

Worth a try. (Although I'd prefer if it was 6-3-2-1 qualifier mix)
[/quote]

The new proposals turn the League into part of the all Ireland.
"Sher it's only the league" is part of Béaloideas na hÉireann

[sid waddell]

As far as Proposal B goes, there's definitely a chance to game the system. Like, which would be harder, securing one of the three qualifying places from Division 2, or one of the five qualifying places from Division 1?

If you're in Division 1, and you know you're not going to qualify in the top 5, why bother putting in effort for matches which are dead rubbers as far as you're concerned? Getting relegated becomes the more attractive option to give you a better chance of qualifying the following year.

At least in the League as it is now, dead rubber matches fulfil a function - they are battles for places and preparation for the championship.

If in this new League as Championship format, a Division 4 team loses their first two matches, what's the point in bothering with the other five?

[BennyHarp]

There's no point in throwing a division 4 team into the latter stages of the All Ireland to get a mauling. The two tier league and championship seems the only logical way. For me, i'd have 3 divisions, top 6 in div 1 and top 2 in div 2 into the Sam Maguire quarter finals, bottom 3 in div 1 relegated and top two in division 2 promoted plus the intermediate championship winners.

The next 4 in division 2 go into the Intermediate championship quarter finals along with the top 4 in div 3. Bottom 2 relegated from div 2 and top 2 promoted from Div 3. If the intermediate champions come from outside the top 2 in div 3 then an additional div 2 team is relegated.

The jeopardy from getting relegated from div 1 and getting a handy run to the quarter finals from div 2 is that you need to finish in the top two or you face intermediate football. That keeps div 1 competitive enough throughout. Every team in the country is only one season away from competing for Sam if they can get on a roll.

[Rossfan]

It's a bit illogical that teams 6 to 8 and 11 to 16 can't play in the AI but teams 17 and 25 can.
If the D3 and 4 winners must take part I would suggest top 6 D1,  top 4 D2 plus D3 and D4 winners.

[Jayop]

Ah there's not really going to be any long term advantage to playing in D2 if you really have ambitions of winning the all-ireland under that proposal.

If it was in next year the top 5 in D1 will have came through Donegal, Tyrone, Kerry, Dublin, Monaghan, Armagh, Mayo and Kildare. That's 7 brutal games and any team progressing through 7 games like that at a championship level would leave you in a serious position.

D2 will have Meath, Clare, Cork, Down, Derry, Cavan, Galway and Roscommon. With the greatest of respect to those teams, it's hardly ideal preparation for a quarterfinal against any of the top 5 teams who would come through d1.

As for giving the 2 winners from D3 and D4 a spot, I think it's great. They will have come through a tough run at their own level, will have had a chance to get things right and will already have their all-ireland medal in the pocket for their grade. A big game out in croker for one of them will be brilliant. Nothing to stop the likes of a Leitrim winning d4 and getting to an all-ireland QF. Surely a big game like that in Croker would be a serious carrot for those players and a guaranteed 7 games in the summer every year might keep a few guys interested.



The Provincials need to be retained but I've long said they should be played seperate from the AI series. It's just complete nonsense that you might have to win 4 games against D1 opposition to win Ulster and get to a SF/QF while the 3 other winners can stroll through. Yeah they might be less prepared but they will have been able to taper the training for the later stages.

[sid waddell]

Ah there's not really going to be any long term advantage to playing in D2 if you really have ambitions of winning the all-ireland under that proposal.

If it was in next year the top 5 in D1 will have came through Donegal, Tyrone, Kerry, Dublin, Monaghan, Armagh, Mayo and Kildare. That's 7 brutal games and any team progressing through 7 games like that at a championship level would leave you in a serious position.

D2 will have Meath, Clare, Cork, Down, Derry, Cavan, Galway and Roscommon. With the greatest of respect to those teams, it's hardly ideal preparation for a quarterfinal against any of the top 5 teams who would come through d1.

Well if you're to hold that view that means you also have to hold the view that you can't win the All-Ireland from outside Division 1, you can't even compete. Inevitable defeat in the knockout stage will be your lot.

Which means the proposal is completely elitist.

We already see the yo-yo team phenomenon in action in the League. Teams get promoted from Division 2 and go straight back down. Promoted teams cannot break into the elite circle because the game is loaded against them.

So under Proposal B, the championship will be run for the benefit of the few, and f**k the rest.

[Rossfan]

Championships are always the preserve of a few.
If you want a social welfare competition.....

[sid waddell]

Championships are always the preserve of a few.
If you want a social welfare competition.....

The championship is not and was never supposed to be a social welfare competition.

It is in fact Proposal B which publicly advocates it be such, while in practice it will completely pull the rug up after the rich and leave everybody else in the wilderness in a much more extreme way than is already the case.

[Jayop]

Well if you're to hold that view that means you also have to hold the view that you can't win the All-Ireland from outside Division 1, you can't even compete. Inevitable defeat in the knockout stage will be your lot.

Which means the proposal is completely elitist.

We already see the yo-yo team phenomenon in action in the League. Teams get promoted from Division 2 and go straight back down. Promoted teams cannot break into the elite circle because the game is loaded against them.

So under Proposal B, the championship will be run for the benefit of the few, and f**k the rest.

When was the last time a team from outside D1 won it? All competitions are elitist if you mean do the best "elite" teams win it. I don't really understand your point, should we introduce a handicap system like golf and give a D4 team a 10 point headstart?? Here a D4 team wins their league, has a crack at a QF. The next year they're a D3 team playing at a better level. Again you skipped the big point I made and cut it from your quote about how I think 7 actual championship games guarenteed will stop players from weaker counties dropping off panels. I don't know why anyone would put in the work for 1/2 games a year. Waste of time.

Unless you completely strip any chance from the outset of the year for a team to be in the premier competition and simply have Sr, intermediate and Jr championships what other solution is there? As far as I'm aware the players from every county want the chance to be in the big one from the start of the year be that right or wrong.


Now if you're talking about leveling the playing field outside of the actual structure of the competitions then I'm all ears. Funding allocation is a joke right now, some county boards are being run by clowns, all that needs to be looked at too, but that being wrong doesn't mean the championship structure can't be made more fair.

[thewobbler]

 

It's a bit illogical that teams 6 to 8 and 11 to 16 can't play in the AI but teams 17 and 25 can.
If the D3 and 4 winners must take part I would suggest top 6 D1,  top 4 D2 plus D3 and D4 winners.

I'd agree. The difference between the teams in finishing positions 5, 6 and 7 would often be trivial amounts scoring difference; and smashing a team to death at least once a season becomes paramount.

But I'd also suggest: all 8 in D1, top 6 in D2, top 1 in D3 and top 1 in D4.

This way:

- the best 8 teams from the previous season (ie D1 at the start of the year) all qualify for the playoffs, ensuring higher standards.

- the advantage of having an additional home game in D1 is fully negated, and partly negated in D2.

- promotion to / remaining in D1 allows teams to plan / budget for the playoffs.

- promotion to / remaining in D1, or at very worst D2, becomes sacrosanct for all serious counties, thereby ensuring that pretty much every end of league (in D1 and D2) match is played at championship pace.

- qualifying for D2 takes on a whole new bonus territory for mid-tier counties; meaning their seasons would have clear barometers of progress and would'nt just be measured by "AI success or nothing".

- while ostensibly in terms of the  playoff carrot, there would be little advantage in finding  yourself in D3 or D4, dig a little deeper and you can use the former to springboard yourself into the big time, and the latter to realign and go again, and to build yourself back up by playing opposition at your standard. Any county that would willingly drop their standards for an entire season just so they have a chance of qualifying for the playoffs in D4, really wouldn't be  thinking straight.

And most of all, every county player in Ireland would enjoy 7 important games at roughly the right level. And in 16 counties each year,, then  can return to club football ready to concentrate on it.

[sid waddell]

Well if you're to hold that view that means you also have to hold the view that you can't win the All-Ireland from outside Division 1, you can't even compete. Inevitable defeat in the knockout stage will be your lot.

Which means the proposal is completely elitist.

We already see the yo-yo team phenomenon in action in the League. Teams get promoted from Division 2 and go straight back down. Promoted teams cannot break into the elite circle because the game is loaded against them.

So under Proposal B, the championship will be run for the benefit of the few, and f**k the rest.

When was the last time a team from outside D1 won it? All competitions are elitist if you mean do the best "elite" teams win it. I don't really understand your point, should we introduce a handicap system like golf and give a D4 team a 10 point headstart?? Here a D4 team wins their league, has a crack at a QF. The next year they're a D3 team playing at a better level. Again you skipped the big point I made and cut it from your quote about how I think 7 actual championship games guarenteed will stop players from weaker counties dropping off panels. I don't know why anyone would put in the work for 1/2 games a year. Waste of time.

Unless you completely strip any chance from the outset of the year for a team to be in the premier competition and simply have Sr, intermediate and Jr championships what other solution is there? As far as I'm aware the players from every county want the chance to be in the big one from the start of the year be that right or wrong.


Now if you're talking about leveling the playing field outside of the actual structure of the competitions then I'm all ears. Funding allocation is a joke right now, some county boards are being run by clowns, all that needs to be looked at too, but that being wrong doesn't mean the championship structure can't be made more fair.

The last two teams to beat Dublin in the championship were in Division 2 that year - but they were Donegal and Mayo - who we all know in reality were top five teams who had a rare bad year in the League the year previous.

A major problem is that the League system since 2008 has helped to create yawning, long lasting gaps because the standard of football between divisions is so different. And it's very difficult to overcome that. So you fix the League by doing away with Divisions 1 to 4 and returning to the 16 team Divisions 1 and 2, as played from 1999-2007, which was a very competitive era in general. Hell, you could even go the whole hog and have four equal groups of eight as happened in the 1992/93 and 1998/99 League seasons. It would take a few years to reduce the gaps but they would reduce across the board.

The championship needs as much across the board competitiveness as possible and the current League system is a major driver towards stopping that.

If you make the current League system the Championship, that suits the top teams and nobody else. The gaps between the tiers will expand and they will become almost unbridgeable. You bring the yo-yo phenomenon which already exists in the League into the Championship. These tiers will likely become permanent with a lot of counties just not bothering and players and spectators giving up entirely.

And within that top tier, it suits Dublin and Kerry and disadvantages Mayo and Donegal in particular, and probably Tyrone too. The timing of the competition suits Dublin and Kerry, because they are the counties who can keep their players at home. With the planned earlier timing of the championship, it makes it a lot more difficult for the likes of Mayo and Donegal and other counties with a large number of players based outside the county to get organised. Travelling between Dublin and Mayo or Donegal is a hell of a lot easier in summer with the long evenings than in the dark. So you can expect a lot of Dublin-Kerry All-Ireland finals going forward.

If you don't address the across the board competitiveness, and the GAA is doing nothing at all towards that, the game will wither and the championship will become an after thought in the minds of the general sporting public, who are by the most important people to consider here. There is not and never has been a culture of week after week following a county team.

There will be a lot less big occasions, no more Ulster finals or Munster finals or on the day Galway v Mayo clashes, traditional rivalries, which make the game, will largely disappear, and a lot more dead rubbers with yawning empty spaces will take their places. If the GAA's showpiece competition no longer attracts mass interest, and if Dublin and Kerry are dominant from here on in, and under Proposal B that will be the case, the GAA's place at the centre of Irish life will come under serious threat.