Free Staters and their hypocrisy on their violent, bloody past

[sid waddell]

There's a great irony as regards Bobby Sands

Sands' victory in the Fermanagh/South Tyrone by election was the seed of modern day Sinn Fein - concentration on electoral politics

It was the seed that was the beginning of the end of the IRA's armed campaign - it was the seed of surrender, sown in electoral victory

But that's not what Bobby Sands stood in that by election for - he did not stand to sow the seed of surrender

So you could say in a way he was duped

Bobby Sands' sister herself clearly believed the ceasefires were surrender, hence her being anti-peace process and her support for the Real IRA

Sinn Fein have traded off the image of Sands for 40 years - but the reality is they betrayed him - and they have lied for decades about what his death "achieved"

Bernadette Sands was Bobby Sands' sister, he was her brother, her own flesh and blood - to others, ie. Sinn Fein, he was merely a franchise whose image could be used as a rallying cry, like Fianna Fail used "Up the Republic" as a rallying cry

Here is what Bernadette Sands said in February 1998:

https://magill.ie/archive/interview-bernadette-sands

"Bobby did not die for cross-border bodies with executive powers. He did not die for nationalists to be equal British citizens within the Northern Ireland state. In the last extract he made in his diary, he writes that he will never be broken because the desire for freedom is in his heart. He says that one day the Irish people will have their freedom and it is then we will see 'the rising of the moon'. That day of the 'rising of the moon' has not yet arrived, and I think it is well worth struggling for."

"British rule is just as wrong today as it was 10 years, 20 years or 80 years ago. As we approach the new millennium, Britain should do the modern, progressive thing and leave Ireland."

Sinn Feiners pretended to be confused about Bernadette Sands' position:

Republican grassroots in Belfast are confused about her position. The lack of media interviews by The 32 County Sovereignty Committee means many don't understand what it stands for. One activist who knows her family says: "Any divisions within our community are tragic, even more so when they involve the relative of a hunger-striker."

Some Sinn Fein insiders were quite insulting about her:

Staunch supporters of the Sinn Féin leadership are less philosophical. One says: "Bernie Sands's problem is that she is over-ambitious. That's what is behind all this. She won't get far. There won't be too many republicans following her line."

But Bernadette Sands' position was quite easy to understand - for her, the ceasefires were a sell out, and meant her brother and the other hunger strikers died for nothing

Which, understandably, must be a very difficult thing to swallow, because Bobby Sands was her brother, not a meme or a slogan

Especially not a meme or a slogan to be used by those who surrendered - the antithesis of what Bobby Sands wanted

[Milltown Row2]

So you'd be happier that the arm struggle continued?

[sid waddell]

So you'd be happier that the arm struggle continued?

Obviously not

But you can see the point of those who had been within the Sinn Fein/IRA sphere who were against the peace process, like Bernadette Sands

They are quite entitled to feel betrayed

I don't see how somebody can support SF now and aim the term "sell out" at 1920s Republicans who supported the Treaty

Because SF "sold out" themselves

One of the reasons the Provos came into existence was abstentionism - not recognising the Republic of Ireland Dáil

A policy they walked back on in November 1986

If Gerry Adams has a gift, it is in portraying selling out as victory

The hunger strikes were a defeat, they're now proclaimed as a glorious chapter of blood sacrifice - they were certainly a chapter of myth making

The end of abstentionism was a climb down, portrayed as forward thinking and pragmatism

The ceasefires were a surrender, portrayed as victory

The Good Friday Agreement was a surrender, portrayed as victory

Administering British rule in NI was defeat packaged as victory

Essentially what Gerry Adams did was to transform the Provisional IRA into the new SDLP

I'm glad he did that, because it means peace, but there's no getting away from the fact it was a complete betrayal of what the Provos were set up to do

[Milltown Row2]

You're a confused lad in fairness to you. The betrayal happened when the south turned its back on the north and washed its hands of its countrymen.

We wouldn't be having these conversations and any acts if war that would have happened would be talked about with nostalgia rather than brutality.

[sid waddell]

You're a confused lad in fairness to you. The betrayal happened when the south turned its back on the north and washed its hands of its countrymen.

We wouldn't be having these conversations and any acts if war that would have happened would be talked about with nostalgia rather than brutality.

Anybody who has never had some degree of confusion about the topic has never thought seriously about the topic

Sinn Fein washed its hands of what Bobby Sands was fighting for

As I said the other day, the only people who can claim not to have sold out are the dissos, the likes of McKevitt

But McKevitt was responsible for Omagh, which was an outrage

"Selling out" is a by product of cold reality and always has been

[Milltown Row2]

You sold out, you feel bad about it and deflect accordingly. Shame on you

[sid waddell]

You sold out, you feel bad about it and deflect accordingly. Shame on you

I don't feel bad about it at all, I'm delighted I did sell out actually

More people should have sold out and much quicker

[Milltown Row2]

You sold out, you feel bad about it and deflect accordingly. Shame on you

I don't feel bad about it at all, I'm delighted I did sell out actually

More people should have sold out and much quicker

You are happy with how the north was sold out? Ok, then there's nothing to discuss.

[seafoid]

For true hypocrisy look no further than neoliberal Sinn Féin.
Thousands  of families in NI are dependent on food banks. Nobody gives a f**k about Loyalist education levels.
Ignorance imposes huge costs on society .

Derry is still very poor.

Bernadette McAliskey nails it.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/bernadette-mcaliskey-i-am-astounded-i-survived-i-made-mad-decisions-1.2798293?mode=amp

It would be wrong to say there has been no progress at all since 1969," says McAliskey. "But 1969 came at the end of almost 50 years of neglect by the British state, where unionists were allowed to treat the Catholic community as unequal citizens. To my mind, since then, we went round in a very long, destructive circle to end up in a place close to where we started in 1924.

Passive acquiescence
"If you see the problem purely in terms of unionism running the lives of nationalists, then you can say we have made significant progress. You can say, 'Look, we now have Catholics at the very heart of power.' But if that is not what you were ever about, then things may in fact be worse, because what we have is passive acquiescence in a society where the things I took for granted growing up have been destroyed." 

The economic and social brutality meted out to the Catholic, and Protestant, poor of the 1960s by a unionist-dominated Stormont is now meted out by "capitalism, neoliberalism or any other -ism you care to call it," she says.

"I grew up in this state with the opportunity, by virtue of free education and universal healthcare, of not only surviving extreme poverty but having a university education. I look at my granddaughter now, living in the same place [Co Tyrone], going to the same university, and she will be in debt until she's 50. If you look at those pillars, of education and health, they were accessible regardless of religion. That no longer exists. The welfare state is being destroyed."

[sid waddell]

You sold out, you feel bad about it and deflect accordingly. Shame on you

I don't feel bad about it at all, I'm delighted I did sell out actually

More people should have sold out and much quicker

You are happy with how the north was sold out? Ok, then there's nothing to discuss.

The North never fought in the War of Independence

So they sold themselves out

[sid waddell]

For true hypocrisy look no further than neoliberal Sinn Féin.
Thousands  of families in NI are dependent on food banks. Nobody gives a f**k about Loyalist education levels.
Ignorance imposes huge costs on society .

Derry is still very poor.

Bernadette McAliskey nails it.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/bernadette-mcaliskey-i-am-astounded-i-survived-i-made-mad-decisions-1.2798293?mode=amp

It would be wrong to say there has been no progress at all since 1969," says McAliskey. "But 1969 came at the end of almost 50 years of neglect by the British state, where unionists were allowed to treat the Catholic community as unequal citizens. To my mind, since then, we went round in a very long, destructive circle to end up in a place close to where we started in 1924.

Passive acquiescence
"If you see the problem purely in terms of unionism running the lives of nationalists, then you can say we have made significant progress. You can say, 'Look, we now have Catholics at the very heart of power.' But if that is not what you were ever about, then things may in fact be worse, because what we have is passive acquiescence in a society where the things I took for granted growing up have been destroyed."

The economic and social brutality meted out to the Catholic, and Protestant, poor of the 1960s by a unionist-dominated Stormont is now meted out by "capitalism, neoliberalism or any other -ism you care to call it," she says.

"I grew up in this state with the opportunity, by virtue of free education and universal healthcare, of not only surviving extreme poverty but having a university education. I look at my granddaughter now, living in the same place [Co Tyrone], going to the same university, and she will be in debt until she's 50. If you look at those pillars, of education and health, they were accessible regardless of religion. That no longer exists. The welfare state is being destroyed."

Aren't something like 8 out of the 10 most disadvantaged wards in NI majority Catholic?

[Milltown Row2]

You sold out, you feel bad about it and deflect accordingly. Shame on you

I don't feel bad about it at all, I'm delighted I did sell out actually

More people should have sold out and much quicker

You are happy with how the north was sold out? Ok, then there's nothing to discuss.

The North never fought in the War of Independence

So they sold themselves out

15 & 17 April 1920: Clashes erupted in Derry when republican prisoners were brought to Derry Gaol. British soldiers fired on a Catholic crowd (which included women and children) to disperse them. Later, an assault on patrolling British soldiers in Derry sparked clashes between Irish nationalists and unionists in the city. This culminated in an attack on an RIC barracks, during which the RIC shot six people.

9 May 1920: Some 200 IRA volunteers under Frank Aiken attacked the RIC barracks in Newtownhamilton, County Armagh. After a two-hour firefight, the IRA breached the barracks wall with explosives and stormed the building. The RIC refused to surrender until the building was set alight with petrol from a potato-spraying machine.

15–16 May 1920: Loyalists attacked a Catholic district of Derry, sparking a four-hour gun battle between armed republicans, loyalists and the RIC. A Detective Sergeant from RIC Special Branch was shot dead, the first RIC officer to be killed in Ulster. A Catholic man was also killed. Armed UVF members took over Carlisle Bridge and assaulted Catholics attempting to cross, despite the presence of British troops and police.

1 June 1920:
At least 200 IRA volunteers led by Roger McCorley attacked the RIC barracks in Crossgar, County Down. They opened fire on the building, wounding two officers, and attempted to breach the walls with explosives before withdrawing.

I could go on but don't want to embarrass you any more than you're going by these threads

[clonadmad]

You sold out, you feel bad about it and deflect accordingly. Shame on you

I don't feel bad about it at all, I'm delighted I did sell out actually

More people should have sold out and much quicker

You are happy with how the north was sold out? Ok, then there's nothing to discuss.

The north did nothing of consequence in the war of independence

The usual nordie setting of blaming someone else

[Milltown Row2]

You sold out, you feel bad about it and deflect accordingly. Shame on you

I don't feel bad about it at all, I'm delighted I did sell out actually

More people should have sold out and much quicker

You are happy with how the north was sold out? Ok, then there's nothing to discuss.

The north did nothing of consequence in the war of independence

The usual nordie setting of blaming someone else

There's no blame, the minute the south turned its back it created a political nightmare. Anyone that doesn't see that and is sympathetic to the Palestinian struggle is a hypocrite, my opinion, I don't need to blame anyone. That's just what happened

[clonadmad]

You sold out, you feel bad about it and deflect accordingly. Shame on you

I don't feel bad about it at all, I'm delighted I did sell out actually

More people should have sold out and much quicker

You are happy with how the north was sold out? Ok, then there's nothing to discuss.

The north did nothing of consequence in the war of independence

The usual nordie setting of blaming someone else

There's no blame, the minute the south turned its back it created a political nightmare. Anyone that doesn't see that and is sympathetic to the Palestinian struggle is a hypocrite, my opinion, I don't need to blame anyone. That's just what happened

The reality is the British army were in a position to send units to the likes of Munster from the north due to the north being so ineffective

The inactivity of the cowardly north in taking the fight to the British even in nationalist areas is a shameful chapter of the war of independence

You lot couldn't even help yourself and then had the gall to tar those brave men in the south as having "turned their backs" on the north

I really don't know what bringing in Palestine has to do with your argument