Would you be in favour of a second tier?

Started by sligoman2, June 26, 2017, 12:34:12 PM

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Would you be in favour of an alternative championship for Div 3 and 4 with winners and runners up rejoining the other championship.

Yes
136 (52.7%)
No
104 (40.3%)
Undecided
18 (7%)

Total Members Voted: 258

Rossfan

Talking of Tiers
Sligo had to give a walkover last year to Galway, while Fermanagh had to play a game without a scatter of players.
Will Cork be conceding
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2021/0801/1238535-cork-unable-to-fulfil-u20-final-fixture-over-covid-case/
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Lone Shark

Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 11:41:54 AM

Look I take your point. I sat down and watched Down v Monaghan on Friday. By chance just happened onto it, but my point is valid. Tyrone have no Hurling pedigree. They have very little interest in Hurling. I watched the Sunday game last night and went to bed after the football. RTE Editors would be castigated if they dedicated 15 mins to those 4th and 5th tier matches. There is very little demand unfortunately.

How are you not getting this? The only footballing equivalent to Tyrone hurling is Kilkenny, and they are not the type of county that's at issue here. Offaly football and hurling is now broadly similar, in that we're ranked around the middle of the pack in both. Our football matches against Louth and Kildare got 100 times the exposure of all our Christy Ring Cup matches combined. Yet the interest level in the two teams, both domestically and nationally, is about the same.

trailer

Quote from: Lone Shark on August 02, 2021, 11:50:56 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 11:41:54 AM

Look I take your point. I sat down and watched Down v Monaghan on Friday. By chance just happened onto it, but my point is valid. Tyrone have no Hurling pedigree. They have very little interest in Hurling. I watched the Sunday game last night and went to bed after the football. RTE Editors would be castigated if they dedicated 15 mins to those 4th and 5th tier matches. There is very little demand unfortunately.

How are you not getting this? The only footballing equivalent to Tyrone hurling is Kilkenny, and they are not the type of county that's at issue here. Offaly football and hurling is now broadly similar, in that we're ranked around the middle of the pack in both. Our football matches against Louth and Kildare got 100 times the exposure of all our Christy Ring Cup matches combined. Yet the interest level in the two teams, both domestically and nationally, is about the same.

Leave it so then. Lets all tune in to watch Tyrone put 20 points on Antrim. Do you think Pairc Chaoimh will be able to hold the crowd for the Clare V Waterford in the Football?
If teams are good enough by all means they should get the chance but the reality is this. Dublin are now playing in an All Ireland SF and no one has has come close to them Kerry likewise. It's a cake walk for them and totally unfair against other counties like Tyrone or Donegal who have to battle through a competitive Ulster.
Offaly aren't good enough in either codes. Their footballers got far too much exposure. Sure they have great pedigree but at this moment in time it's not happening. Their players train just as hard as Dublin but they are not good enough. All the column inches and TV exposure in Ireland will not change that. The more the GAA offers up these mis matches the more people will turn off.

trailer

Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 02, 2021, 12:29:21 PM
I'm not sure I follow.

Monaghan played Fermanagh, Armagh and Tyrone this year. Are you saying it would have been much better if they had just played Armagh and Tyrone?

Was the interest in those games less because they played Fermanagh first?

Dunno if this is directed at me or not, but I don't see what Fermanagh got out of the 10 point defeat. Would they not have been better to play teams at their level?


Rossfan

The current proposals both have every team playing in their Provincials.
Having a graded AI inter Co Championship should stand or fall on its own merits I.e is it good for the game and especially in those Counties in the lower grade.
What media think is important is their business.
Mind you the GAA in giving TV rights could say. "For every 2 top tier matches you sho you must show 1 lower tier".
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Applesisapples

I have long held the view that there should be 3 tiers in Football, as with the hurling Counties would compete at a level at which they are competitive. Grade of All Ireland to be dictated by league status. Its all well and good saying players want a crack at Sam but unless the County has a good team this will invariably lead to a beating.

trailer

Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 02, 2021, 01:49:54 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 01:16:55 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 02, 2021, 12:29:21 PM
I'm not sure I follow.

Monaghan played Fermanagh, Armagh and Tyrone this year. Are you saying it would have been much better if they had just played Armagh and Tyrone?

Was the interest in those games less because they played Fermanagh first?

Dunno if this is directed at me or not, but I don't see what Fermanagh got out of the 10 point defeat. Would they not have been better to play teams at their level?
Sorry, I thought your point was that having teams like Fermanagh in the championship is the reason why people are turning off/losing interest.

I don't necessarily agree with that and I can't see how early round mismatches have any bearing on the interest people have in the matches later on in the championship.
People understand that Tyrone are likely to put 20 points on Antrim and may only show a passing interest in that game but that's not going to put them off the whole championship.

Yes 100% not the whole championship. But there are lots of different issues here.
Mis Matches: People as you say are turned off the mis matches but by not grading teams we miss the chance of some great games at 2nd and 3rd tiers. Like in reality the Championship is only started to get interesting for Dublin, Kerry and probably Mayo. But if we had 8 teams all playing each other in an even format, the quality and the product would be far superior at all levels.

Coverage: Weird one for me. There are hapes of instances of managers denying access to players for interviews. Teams are named with a host of changes. No one had a notion of the Tyrone team on Saturday and when it did come out it wasn't near right. There was changes on the Dublin team as well. Teams moan all the time but they don't help themselves. By all means promote the dung out of the games but Counties shoulder a lot of the blame for me.
GAA should insist that all teams are named 2 days before the game any changes only within the 26 named. And a mandatory press conference with Management and Players available before and after.

Chance to win Sam or Liam: Another red herring. Leitrim, Antrim, Sligo etc have no chance of winning Sam and this is the reality. Put them in a competition that they can realistically win and get promoted from.

There is no rational for continuing with the current Provincial and All Ireland format. It's time we all got real.

APM

Over the long run, there aren't as many tiers in football as there is in hurling. 

I would say you could get away with two. 

Consider over the last 20 years, there have been many times where typical division 3/4 teams have contested the latter stages of the championship or division 1 /2 in the league, or beaten typical mid- or top tier opposition.

It's becoming rarer, but off the top of my head:
Fermanagh 2004 AI Semi, Ulster Final 2018 - beat Armagh & Monaghan
Tipperary - All Ireland Semi - 2016
Wexford - All Ireland Semi - 2008, League Final - 2005, beat Galway in 2010
Wicklow - knocked Cavan, Down and Fermanagh out of the qualifiers in 2008
Carlow, beat Kildare 2018
Antrim, beat Donegal and Cavan to make an Ulster Final
Sligo have played in AIQFs and won Connacht
Limerick were respectable in the Munster Championship for much of the noughties

The point I'm making is that, for all of those teams, a Tier 2 competition could actually provide a spring board for success for a few years in the top tier. 

This will never happen in hurling, because while an Armagh, Tyrone or Mayo may win the Rackard Cup, they are unlikely to progress on and win a Ring Cup and get promoted to the Joe McDonagh or Liam McCarthy.  Even if they do, there isn't the interest or structures long term to sustain a long term progression, because the gap is so wide and the skills development from a young age is so critical. 

Football is different and some of these counties would have serious support (Sligo, Wexford etc).  If Dublin are to come back into the pack, it is possible to see a two tier competition work extremely well. 

Armagh18

Quote from: High Fielder on August 02, 2021, 11:37:55 AM
There has to be an outlet at the highest level for good players in smaller counties. There aren't many sports that I know of where the best players can never compete at the top. The county system is fundamentally flawed in that regard
That the problem- most amateur sports like boxing, gymnastics, athletics or whatever are individual sports, a class talent born in Dublin has as much chance of making it to the top as someone born in Wicklow- the individual talent shines through.


Most other team sports like soccer or whatever- if a world class talent like George Best is born in Belfast where the local standard is shite, he doesn't have to stick playing for his local team, he gets transferred to a better one.  doesn't matter where you are born (to a certain extent) a top talent in an individual sport only has to rely on themselves whereas in team sports they are obviously depending on those around them to make it to the top.

If talents like David Clifford and Con O'C were born in Waterford or Wicklow, it doesn't matter how good they are they have about as much chance as winning an All Ireland as I have of winning Miss World. But that comes with the territory of the GAA being first and foremost about representing your local area be it county or club and I'd never want to lose that.

Quick example look at Aston Villa and Jack Grealish at the minute, he's being offered crazy money to leave his boyhood club, sadly for him he'll have to leave them at somestage to have a hope at winning anything.

themac_23

make the AI series a stand alone. do away with pre season tournament, McKenna cup etc. play provincial series before the league season starts. Play the leagues as normal, do away with league finals just do winners promoted. Play the 2 tier championship after on a knock out basis. with the winner of tier 2 gaining a place in next years tier 1 (and div 2). I genuinely dont see how anyone could have any complaints at that. every other sport in the world has teams graded by ability, I dont know why the GAA think that Gaelic football should be different.

trailer

Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 02, 2021, 02:21:12 PM
8 teams in the championship (presumably having to play each other a hape of times to prolong it beyond 3 weeks)? No thank you.

The current format is completely drawn out. Pre Covid it took Connacht about 4 months to run off their province. 3 weekends would've sufficed. 

Lone Shark

Quote from: APM on August 02, 2021, 02:26:30 PM
Over the long run, there aren't as many tiers in football as there is in hurling. 

I would say you could get away with two. 

Consider over the last 20 years, there have been many times where typical division 3/4 teams have contested the latter stages of the championship or division 1 /2 in the league, or beaten typical mid- or top tier opposition.

It's becoming rarer, but off the top of my head:
Fermanagh 2004 AI Semi, Ulster Final 2018 - beat Armagh & Monaghan
Tipperary - All Ireland Semi - 2016
Wexford - All Ireland Semi - 2008, League Final - 2005, beat Galway in 2010
Wicklow - knocked Cavan, Down and Fermanagh out of the qualifiers in 2008
Carlow, beat Kildare 2018
Antrim, beat Donegal and Cavan to make an Ulster Final
Sligo have played in AIQFs and won Connacht
Limerick were respectable in the Munster Championship for much of the noughties

The point I'm making is that, for all of those teams, a Tier 2 competition could actually provide a spring board for success for a few years in the top tier. 

This will never happen in hurling, because while an Armagh, Tyrone or Mayo may win the Rackard Cup, they are unlikely to progress on and win a Ring Cup and get promoted to the Joe McDonagh or Liam McCarthy.  Even if they do, there isn't the interest or structures long term to sustain a long term progression, because the gap is so wide and the skills development from a young age is so critical. 

Football is different and some of these counties would have serious support (Sligo, Wexford etc).  If Dublin are to come back into the pack, it is possible to see a two tier competition work extremely well.

There are still plenty of instances of Division Three and four teams beating Division Two teams. There are zero instances of shock defeats for the established counties at the top of the pecking order - Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Mayo, Donegal. Monaghan seem to be the only team that are able to trouble those elite powers, but can also be vulnerable to sucker punches from weaker opposition themselves.

Take away 2020, when no team was prepared properly, and basically the only teams that beat that elite group are each other. There's your tier one, and everyone else is tier two. There's a greater chance of a bad Division four team like Sligo or Carlow beating a top ten side like Roscommon or Meath than there is of that top ten team turning over Kerry or Dublin.

Anything that happened prior to 2010 is irrelevant. Since we changed the leagues from 1a/1b/2a/2b to 1/2/3/4, the strong got stronger and the weaker fell away. Before that change (allowing a couple of years for the effects to bake in) is a different world.

Blowitupref

Quote from: Rossfan on August 02, 2021, 11:46:39 AM
Talking of Tiers
Sligo had to give a walkover last year to Galway, while Fermanagh had to play a game without a scatter of players.
Will Cork be conceding
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2021/0801/1238535-cork-unable-to-fulfil-u20-final-fixture-over-covid-case/
Match rescheduled for next week. As expected the bigger more high profile county accommodated.

The way Fermanagh and Sligo was treated last year showed what those at the top thought of the lesser counties.
Is the ref going to finally blow his whistle?... No, he's going to blow his nose

seafoid

Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 02:08:47 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 02, 2021, 01:49:54 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 01:16:55 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 02, 2021, 12:29:21 PM
I'm not sure I follow.

Monaghan played Fermanagh, Armagh and Tyrone this year. Are you saying it would have been much better if they had just played Armagh and Tyrone?

Was the interest in those games less because they played Fermanagh first?

Dunno if this is directed at me or not, but I don't see what Fermanagh got out of the 10 point defeat. Would they not have been better to play teams at their level?
Sorry, I thought your point was that having teams like Fermanagh in the championship is the reason why people are turning off/losing interest.

I don't necessarily agree with that and I can't see how early round mismatches have any bearing on the interest people have in the matches later on in the championship.
People understand that Tyrone are likely to put 20 points on Antrim and may only show a passing interest in that game but that's not going to put them off the whole championship.

Yes 100% not the whole championship. But there are lots of different issues here.
Mis Matches: People as you say are turned off the mis matches but by not grading teams we miss the chance of some great games at 2nd and 3rd tiers. Like in reality the Championship is only started to get interesting for Dublin, Kerry and probably Mayo. But if we had 8 teams all playing each other in an even format, the quality and the product would be far superior at all levels.

Coverage: Weird one for me. There are hapes of instances of managers denying access to players for interviews. Teams are named with a host of changes. No one had a notion of the Tyrone team on Saturday and when it did come out it wasn't near right. There was changes on the Dublin team as well. Teams moan all the time but they don't help themselves. By all means promote the dung out of the games but Counties shoulder a lot of the blame for me.
GAA should insist that all teams are named 2 days before the game any changes only within the 26 named. And a mandatory press conference with Management and Players available before and after.

Chance to win Sam or Liam: Another red herring. Leitrim, Antrim, Sligo etc have no chance of winning Sam and this is the reality. Put them in a competition that they can realistically win and get promoted from.

There is no rational for continuing with the current Provincial and All Ireland format. It's time we all got real.
Tyrone didn't win their first Ulster title until 1956. That was very shoddy. Should Tyrone have been shunted off into a different competition in the 1940s?
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

tbrick18

Quote from: themac_23 on August 02, 2021, 02:58:48 PM
make the AI series a stand alone. do away with pre season tournament, McKenna cup etc. play provincial series before the league season starts. Play the leagues as normal, do away with league finals just do winners promoted. Play the 2 tier championship after on a knock out basis. with the winner of tier 2 gaining a place in next years tier 1 (and div 2). I genuinely dont see how anyone could have any complaints at that. every other sport in the world has teams graded by ability, I dont know why the GAA think that Gaelic football should be different.

I think two tiers is enough.
I don't mind pre-season tournaments like the McKenna cup. They are a good way to prepare for the season ahead, glorified friendlies really. But they should be run off over a couple of weeks. Two/three games a week for each team, it will ensure the whole panel of players get used and brings the focus onto playing football rather than doing loads of fitness work on a training field.

The provincial championship remains as is but the AI championship gets split into 2 tiers. Tier1 in my head is Div1&2 plus teams promoted from Div3 that year.
Tier2 is everyone else.
Straight knockout format in the AI series, regardless of Tier.

This ties consistent league form to championship entered and should give lower division teams who are on form or progressing a chance at the big boys in the AI series. But it should also give the Div3/4 teams something to aim for post league, as realistically at the moment when the league is over, their championship is over too. I also would stipulate that only league position will determine championship Tier, so that the winner of Tier2 doesn't automatically go into Tier1 next year.

Retaining the provincials will give the lower div teams the chance to beat their neighbours but also give them a chance at an AI competition. 
I'd scrap all league finals as I don't see the point in them. The top team at the end of a league campaign should be the division winner.