Irish History

[delboy]

The state schools in the occupied six counties dont get taught any Irish History. Its all about english kings and queens

Our historys are linked.

Yes they are linked but we were never taught about the O'Neills etc and how they battled the English outside Benburb in Co. Tyrone. There were 100's/1000's killed in this battle and I never knew it even took place. That there was a great fort built there that was an important statement made by the English to the O'Neills. There were other great battles that took place over the Island of Ireland and we were never told about any of them. Instead our minds were filled with crap about England fighting and winning all these great battle's. My young son will know the correct history of this Island and not some bullshit taught to him by a foreign body.

Wait till you get to the bit about cromwell  grrrrrrrrrr

I presume you are talking about the massacre at drogehda when virtually of all of the garrison (about half of which were english royalists) and as many clergy as they could find were put to the death. I think their is general consensus amongst historians that civilians were not massacred on the grand scale suggested by some (which i guess you are alluding too).

[The Subbie]

The state schools in the occupied six counties dont get taught any Irish History. Its all about english kings and queens

Our historys are linked.

Yes they are linked but we were never taught about the O'Neills etc and how they battled the English outside Benburb in Co. Tyrone. There were 100's/1000's killed in this battle and I never knew it even took place. That there was a great fort built there that was an important statement made by the English to the O'Neills. There were other great battles that took place over the Island of Ireland and we were never told about any of them. Instead our minds were filled with crap about England fighting and winning all these great battle's. My young son will know the correct history of this Island and not some bullshit taught to him by a foreign body.

Wait till you get to the bit about cromwell  grrrrrrrrrr

I presume you are talking about the massacre at drogehda when virtually of all of the garrison (about half of which were english royalists) and as many clergy as they could find were put to the death. I think their is general consensus amongst historians that civilians were not massacred on the grand scale suggested by some (which i guess you are alluding too).

No Delboy guess again, The whole "to hell or to Connaught" replanting is the bit of cromwells input to Irish history I find most distasteful.If you had guessed that my loathing of "old ironsides" was to do with the forced indentured labour of over 50,000 Irish to Bermuda, Barbados and other far flung places, you would have guessed correctly
Cromwell's hostility to the Irish was religious as well as political, he abhorred the Catholic church and by extension catholic people, he was a bigot of the highest order, though i do accept that in some siege situations it is recoreded  and accepted historical fact that he did spare some civilians who were not "under arms". Most likely these were then given the "to hell or to Connaught" option.

[Main Street]

To Hell or to Connaught 

Jaysus, before I decide can I have a few minutes to think?

[The Subbie]

To Hell or to Connaught 

Jaysus, before I decide can I have a few minutes to think?

Its some choice

[Ulick]

To Hell or to Connaught 

Or Barbados:

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=13181.0

[delboy]

The state schools in the occupied six counties dont get taught any Irish History. Its all about english kings and queens

Our historys are linked.

Yes they are linked but we were never taught about the O'Neills etc and how they battled the English outside Benburb in Co. Tyrone. There were 100's/1000's killed in this battle and I never knew it even took place. That there was a great fort built there that was an important statement made by the English to the O'Neills. There were other great battles that took place over the Island of Ireland and we were never told about any of them. Instead our minds were filled with crap about England fighting and winning all these great battle's. My young son will know the correct history of this Island and not some bullshit taught to him by a foreign body.

Wait till you get to the bit about cromwell  grrrrrrrrrr

I presume you are talking about the massacre at drogehda when virtually of all of the garrison (about half of which were english royalists) and as many clergy as they could find were put to the death. I think their is general consensus amongst historians that civilians were not massacred on the grand scale suggested by some (which i guess you are alluding too).

No Delboy guess again, The whole "to hell or to Connaught" replanting is the bit of cromwells input to Irish history I find most distasteful.If you had guessed that my loathing of "old ironsides" was to do with the forced indentured labour of over 50,000 Irish to Bermuda, Barbados and other far flung places, you would have guessed correctly
Cromwell's hostility to the Irish was religious as well as political, he abhorred the Catholic church and by extension catholic people, he was a bigot of the highest order, though i do accept that in some siege situations it is recoreded  and accepted historical fact that he did spare some civilians who were not "under arms". Most likely these were then given the "to hell or to Connaught" option.

It was the obvious guess to be fair, since it the one that most people flag up when it comes to cromwell, wiping out the whole place etc, wexford of course would be a better choice.

I agree with you that his hostility to the irish was certainly religious as well as political although the boundaries between these two things was blurry to say the least. Rightly or wrongly catholiism at the time was tied up with theocracy and the divine right of kings whereas protestanism was linked with support for parliment (although there was some protestant royalists but this was the exception).

Wasn't virtually all the deportation you mention carried out under the orders of other generals after cromwell had left ireland (thats my understanding of the chronology). Before anyone accuses me of making excuses for cromwell, i'd just add that i don't have a lot of time for him as a historical figure, as it transpired he seemed to want to supplant one papacy for his own IMO.

Talking about wexford reminds me of a book i was recommended to read by my history teacher at the time, it was told through the eyes of a family during the seige, it was in the style that many historical books now seem to be written in ie a fictional account based on real events, remember it being a good read, wouldn't mind getting it again, i don't suppose it rings any bells with anybody on here (i've long since forgot the title).   

[leenie]

we were taught in p7 about the plantation / famine and the when i went into secondary school it was back to 1066...

it alls depends on the history teacher, ours didn't give a fluke.. but there was another history teacher in our school was big into his irish history unfortunately i never got taught by him... anyone that had him and enjoyed history sang his praises... he was very passionate about it!

i must get that book... would love to extend my knowledge of history....

[The Subbie]

The state schools in the occupied six counties dont get taught any Irish History. Its all about english kings and queens

Our historys are linked.

Yes they are linked but we were never taught about the O'Neills etc and how they battled the English outside Benburb in Co. Tyrone. There were 100's/1000's killed in this battle and I never knew it even took place. That there was a great fort built there that was an important statement made by the English to the O'Neills. There were other great battles that took place over the Island of Ireland and we were never told about any of them. Instead our minds were filled with crap about England fighting and winning all these great battle's. My young son will know the correct history of this Island and not some bullshit taught to him by a foreign body.

Wait till you get to the bit about cromwell  grrrrrrrrrr

I presume you are talking about the massacre at drogehda when virtually of all of the garrison (about half of which were english royalists) and as many clergy as they could find were put to the death. I think their is general consensus amongst historians that civilians were not massacred on the grand scale suggested by some (which i guess you are alluding too).

No Delboy guess again, The whole "to hell or to Connaught" replanting is the bit of cromwells input to Irish history I find most distasteful.If you had guessed that my loathing of "old ironsides" was to do with the forced indentured labour of over 50,000 Irish to Bermuda, Barbados and other far flung places, you would have guessed correctly
Cromwell's hostility to the Irish was religious as well as political, he abhorred the Catholic church and by extension catholic people, he was a bigot of the highest order, though i do accept that in some siege situations it is recoreded  and accepted historical fact that he did spare some civilians who were not "under arms". Most likely these were then given the "to hell or to Connaught" option.

It was the obvious guess to be fair, since it the one that most people flag up when it comes to cromwell, wiping out the whole place etc, wexford of course would be a better choice.

I agree with you that his hostility to the irish was certainly religious as well as political although the boundaries between these two things was blurry to say the least. Rightly or wrongly catholiism at the time was tied up with theocracy and the divine right of kings whereas protestanism was linked with support for parliment (although there was some protestant royalists but this was the exception).

Wasn't virtually all the deportation you mention carried out under the orders of other generals after cromwell had left ireland (thats my understanding of the chronology). Before anyone accuses me of making excuses for cromwell, i'd just add that i don't have a lot of time for him as a historical figure, as it transpired he seemed to want to supplant one papacy for his own IMO.

Talking about wexford reminds me of a book i was recommended to read by my history teacher at the time, it was told through the eyes of a family during the seige, it was in the style that many historical books now seem to be written in ie a fictional account based on real events, remember it being a good read, wouldn't mind getting it again, i don't suppose it rings any bells with anybody on here (i've long since forgot the title).   

I'll try to find out about that book for you, it rings a bell and i have a mate whos a librarian and history nerd that would know.

Back to cromwell, I would'nt be so sure about your point that cromwell did'nt send anyone to Barbados,cromwell is recorded as saying after the sacking of Drogheda "the officers were knocked on the head, every tenth man of the soldiers killed and the rest shipped to Barbados"

I would not argue that his underlings such as Henry Ireton and Edmund Ludlow did indeed send captured Irish to the West Indies but to try and peddle the line that Cromwell did no such thing does not correspond with what i have read on the subject

This whole "cromwell was'nt that bad of a chap really" revisionism started roughly in 2000, the 350th anniversary of his ahem visit, the cromwell association had the nerve to have a mini roadshow round the country to try and dispell the "myth" that this great english hero and warrior was anything other than a thoroughly decent chap don't you know.

I would suggest reading "To hell or Barbados:The ethnic cleansing of Ireland" by Sean O'Callaghan ( not the tout)
which will back up my view that cromwell was  up to his facial warts in the slave trade of our unfortunate forebearers to the Caribbean. 

[Hardy]

Cromwellian lore abounds in my immediate home locality in the Meath hinterland of Drogheda and, of course, in Drogheda itself.

I was born and raised within a mile of Cromwell Cross (more correctly Cromwell's Bush Crossroads, but known to us as "Crummel" which is how it was pronounced locally), where Cromwell's army is said to have overnighted en route from Dublin to Drogheda. The bush, apparently, was where Cromwell tethered his horse.

Whatever about his bloodthirsty predilections, he had a high sense of morality when it came to theft and it is recorded that he had two of his soldiers hanged for stealing a chicken from a local woman. More likely, I suppose, is that it was a matter of army discipline.

There has indeed been some revisionism in the history of the massacre in Drogheda, but I think the kindest interpretation that can be put on it, even if we do accept that there were no specific orders to massacre the population, is that the soldiery had free rein in the town for at least two days. Whether or not their orders were to execute only those bearing arms, there is no doubt that hordes of civilians were butchered and nobody in authority seems to have been too concerned about restraining the soldiers' blood lust. It is documented, for instance, by Cromwell's officers, that St. Peter's church was torched and the civilians who had taken refuge in it incinerated.

Scarlet Street in Drogheda is said to be named from the river of blood that flowed in it during the massacre.

An interesting illustration that history is complicated and that the gaels vs. saxons lines of antagonism that we all grew up with are ridiculously simplistic is that two of my close friends and under-age team-mates were Cromwells (spelt that way, but pronounced, again, Crummel) and their brother played for Meath. Later, when I lived in Limerick, my neighbours two doors down were Iretons and no more Irish family could you find.

[JUst retired]

Great topic, at least we can learn something here.

[delboy]

I'll try to find out about that book for you, it rings a bell and i have a mate whos a librarian and history nerd that would know.

Back to cromwell, I would'nt be so sure about your point that cromwell did'nt send anyone to Barbados,cromwell is recorded as saying after the sacking of Drogheda "the officers were knocked on the head, every tenth man of the soldiers killed and the rest shipped to Barbados"

I would not argue that his underlings such as Henry Ireton and Edmund Ludlow did indeed send captured Irish to the West Indies but to try and peddle the line that Cromwell did no such thing does not correspond with what i have read on the subject

This whole "cromwell was'nt that bad of a chap really" revisionism started roughly in 2000, the 350th anniversary of his ahem visit, the cromwell association had the nerve to have a mini roadshow round the country to try and dispell the "myth" that this great english hero and warrior was anything other than a thoroughly decent chap don't you know.

I would suggest reading "To hell or Barbados:The ethnic cleansing of Ireland" by Sean O'Callaghan ( not the tout)
which will back up my view that cromwell was  up to his facial warts in the slave trade of our unfortunate forebearers to the Caribbean.

Im not trying to say his wasn't a nasty peice of work lets face it anyone in a position of power back in the day had to be a ruthless ****.

Im also not saying that he didn't send anyone to Barbados, but that the majority of those that were sent by others in command of Ireland at the time (which the timing supports), the quote you use would certainly suggest after the sacking of Drogheda that he sent some of the combatants to Barbados, although how that squares with the contention that only 30/none (depending on who you believe) of the garrison was spared seems a bit odd. However It wouldn't be implausible to make the case that the rump parliament which ordered the deportations and land confiscation did so under the direct influence of Cromwell, i'd buy that espcially in light of his anger at the events of 1641 (maybe your book throws some light cromwells control of the rump parliment).

I have to say though i don't agree with your view that indenture and slavery are one and the same it does a disservice to those that suffered slavery, to be indebted to someone or an institution for the cost of your passage is not the same as slavery if this was the case then lots of irish people previous to and after Cromwell freely signed up for 'slavery' to the west indies and many other countries.

This isn't me being a Cromwell apologist/revisionist, its just someone with a interest in irish history wanting to see the events accurately reported, they were bad enough without the need to over egg the history pudding, it does the history a disservice and leaves fertile ground for inaccurate revisionism.

BTW, Ta for offering to ask your mate about the book, pm me if he knows anything.

[The Subbie]

Bonded servants/ indentured labourers were not slaves in the known "roots" version of the word but for those harassed battered, forced  to work unremunerated under a hot sun and dying before their indenture was completed, the difference must have seemed academic.

[gallsman]

The state schools in the occupied six counties dont get taught any Irish History. Its all about english kings and queens

Lies.

All depends on the exam board. Rathmore actually have quite an extensive syllabus with regards to Irish history from the OCR board at both GCSE and A-Level.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Just started to read a book recommended by a board member called
"A History of Ireland in 250 Episodes" by Jonathan Bardon.
I am about a quarter of the way through which is about the time of the flight of the earls. The Island was a savage place back in the early days where the Irish (poor) people lived on oat biscuits, butter & sour milk, the women walked about with their private bits exposed which was normal practice. We really do have a violent history, something which wasn't taught at our school. Would highly recommend this book to anyone who wants to get an insight to the early beginnings of this Island

That would have been me, if you are interested in Scottish history, I have a good one for you. Can't remember the name right now.

If I am correct the piece you refer to above was the accounts of a Catalan pilgram.
There are some funny bits too, such as the battle over a cabbage patch, which resulted in the only casualty of a failed rebellion where thousands had previously assembled but forgot to bring enough food so went home.
Or the time when the Loyal men of Ulster came down to Mayo to help out Captain Boycott. They got of the train in Claremorris the locals just ignored/bycotted them and none of the taxi's (yes hores and cart/horses drawn carriages) would bring them to Ballinrobe, so they had to walk. When they arrived to help Boycott free of charge, he charged them rent to camp on his land to work his land.

[Zapatista]

Yes they are linked but we were never taught about the O'Neills etc and how they battled the English outside Benburb in Co. Tyrone. There were 100's/1000's killed in this battle and I never knew it even took place. That there was a great fort built there that was an important statement made by the English to the O'Neills. There were other great battles that took place over the Island of Ireland and we were never told about any of them. Instead our minds were filled with crap about England fighting and winning all these great battle's. My young son will know the correct history of this Island and not some bullshit taught to him by a foreign body.

I was taught this stuff but it was more to do with the teacher rather than the ciriculum.

What pisses me off is that I was taught English War poetry

Any history were the Irish were involved internationally over the last 100 years inc two world wars has a direct link with British History and is probably taught the same way in the 26 counties. As we have been pretty much divided people throughout this time we tend to lean more towards different Irish individuals in history rather than the actions of the State/Country/Nation etc.