Would you be in favour of a second tier?

Started by sligoman2, June 26, 2017, 12:34:12 PM

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Would you be in favour of an alternative championship for Div 3 and 4 with winners and runners up rejoining the other championship.

Yes
136 (52.7%)
No
104 (40.3%)
Undecided
18 (7%)

Total Members Voted: 258

Sportacus

Quote from: TheGreatest on August 03, 2021, 09:20:31 AM
5th Time in 9 years its Dublin, Mayo , Kerry and Tyrone in the semis. Every second year since 2013. @fotoole13 in twitter.
And that's a big problem.  There has been no credible ladder back to the top for the Down's and Offaly's of this world. They've both produced fine U20 teams this year through a lot of hard work no doubt, but will anything have changed in 5 years time?  If there was tiering, those Down and Offaly lads would be finding their feet next year at say intermediate level, aiming to win silverware, and climb the ladder.

thewobbler

I'm sure I've mentioned it before on this thread. But to go again.

The league offers team natural progression and (mostly) a relevant standard of football.

A championship cannot do this. No matter how you dress it up, for the smaller and weaker counties, the reaper will swing his scythe before it gets interesting.

We do not need 32 counties in the AISF Championship. 16 would be plenty. And the league should be used to determine which 16.

But more importantly we do NOT need a Championship for the bottom 16 teams. For the simple reason that these players can all return immediately to club football, and many, many of them will.

Which means that any "intermediate" county success will always be tarnished by the fact that it'll be a competition in which a lot counties/players have no desire to compete. Everyone will know this and it will have a knock on effect of diluting its integrity further and further each year. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't produce a sprinkling of success stories and happy memories. But ultimately, so does club football - which often time would be better attended, higher profile and more competitive.

How can I be so confident about this?

It's simple enough. History. The problems with AI B championships and Tommy Murphy cups was never marketing, and always player interest. The lure of playing competitive top flight club football is simply too strong compared to the lure of playing lower rung county football.

People need to stop making fantasy stories in their head about how Louth or Antrim's footballers will do anything for a day out in Croke Park, and realise that the drive to play football comes from competition, not venues.

trailer

Quote from: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 10:38:53 AM
I'm sure I've mentioned it before on this thread. But to go again.

The league offers team natural progression and (mostly) a relevant standard of football.

A championship cannot do this. No matter how you dress it up, for the smaller and weaker counties, the reaper will swing his scythe before it gets interesting.

We do not need 32 counties in the AISF Championship. 16 would be plenty. And the league should be used to determine which 16.

But more importantly we do NOT need a Championship for the bottom 16 teams. For the simple reason that these players can all return immediately to club football, and many, many of them will.

Which means that any "intermediate" county success will always be tarnished by the fact that it'll be a competition in which a lot counties/players have no desire to compete. Everyone will know this and it will have a knock on effect of diluting its integrity further and further each year. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't produce a sprinkling of success stories and happy memories. But ultimately, so does club football - which often time would be better attended, higher profile and more competitive.

How can I be so confident about this?

It's simple enough. History. The problems with AI B championships and Tommy Murphy cups was never marketing, and always player interest. The lure of playing competitive top flight club football is simply too strong compared to the lure of playing lower rung county football.

People need to stop making fantasy stories in their head about how Louth or Antrim's footballers will do anything for a day out in Croke Park, and realise that the drive to play football comes from competition, not venues.

A lot of counties don't deserve to be in the same competition as the top teams. Antrim are a good example a team that fails to field a team in same jersey. These so called weaker counties are only weak because they are run by imbeciles. Get their house in order and then worry about trying to win a football match.

Fear Bun Na Sceilpe

Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 11:07:28 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 10:38:53 AM
I'm sure I've mentioned it before on this thread. But to go again.

The league offers team natural progression and (mostly) a relevant standard of football.

A championship cannot do this. No matter how you dress it up, for the smaller and weaker counties, the reaper will swing his scythe before it gets interesting.

We do not need 32 counties in the AISF Championship. 16 would be plenty. And the league should be used to determine which 16.

But more importantly we do NOT need a Championship for the bottom 16 teams. For the simple reason that these players can all return immediately to club football, and many, many of them will.

Which means that any "intermediate" county success will always be tarnished by the fact that it'll be a competition in which a lot counties/players have no desire to compete. Everyone will know this and it will have a knock on effect of diluting its integrity further and further each year. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't produce a sprinkling of success stories and happy memories. But ultimately, so does club football - which often time would be better attended, higher profile and more competitive.

How can I be so confident about this?

It's simple enough. History. The problems with AI B championships and Tommy Murphy cups was never marketing, and always player interest. The lure of playing competitive top flight club football is simply too strong compared to the lure of playing lower rung county football.

People need to stop making fantasy stories in their head about how Louth or Antrim's footballers will do anything for a day out in Croke Park, and realise that the drive to play football comes from competition, not venues.

A lot of counties don't deserve to be in the same competition as the top teams. Antrim are a good example a team that fails to field a team in same jersey. These so called weaker counties are only weak because they are run by imbeciles. Get their house in order and then worry about trying to win a football match.

Surely population and money play a big part

trailer

Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 03, 2021, 11:15:25 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 11:07:28 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 10:38:53 AM
I'm sure I've mentioned it before on this thread. But to go again.

The league offers team natural progression and (mostly) a relevant standard of football.

A championship cannot do this. No matter how you dress it up, for the smaller and weaker counties, the reaper will swing his scythe before it gets interesting.

We do not need 32 counties in the AISF Championship. 16 would be plenty. And the league should be used to determine which 16.

But more importantly we do NOT need a Championship for the bottom 16 teams. For the simple reason that these players can all return immediately to club football, and many, many of them will.

Which means that any "intermediate" county success will always be tarnished by the fact that it'll be a competition in which a lot counties/players have no desire to compete. Everyone will know this and it will have a knock on effect of diluting its integrity further and further each year. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't produce a sprinkling of success stories and happy memories. But ultimately, so does club football - which often time would be better attended, higher profile and more competitive.

How can I be so confident about this?

It's simple enough. History. The problems with AI B championships and Tommy Murphy cups was never marketing, and always player interest. The lure of playing competitive top flight club football is simply too strong compared to the lure of playing lower rung county football.

People need to stop making fantasy stories in their head about how Louth or Antrim's footballers will do anything for a day out in Croke Park, and realise that the drive to play football comes from competition, not venues.

A lot of counties don't deserve to be in the same competition as the top teams. Antrim are a good example a team that fails to field a team in same jersey. These so called weaker counties are only weak because they are run by imbeciles. Get their house in order and then worry about trying to win a football match.

Surely population and money play a big part

Does it? Antrim and Derry have a bigger population that Tyrone yet they are nowhere. Two counties who should really look at themselves and wonder what the f**k they are at.

Rossfan

Weaker football Counties and the reason
Hurling -Wexford, Kilkenny, Tipperary, Clare,  Limerick,  Waterford
Population Fermanagh *, Leitrim,  Longford, Carlow.
Tipp and Clare pinching above their weights recently, as did Wexfird and Limerick some years ago.
Overseas London.
No excuse Antrim,  Louth Wicklow.

* 48% of population not interested.

Some posters here seem to have the gift of prophecy!
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Fear Bun Na Sceilpe

Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 11:17:34 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 03, 2021, 11:15:25 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 11:07:28 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 10:38:53 AM
I'm sure I've mentioned it before on this thread. But to go again.

The league offers team natural progression and (mostly) a relevant standard of football.

A championship cannot do this. No matter how you dress it up, for the smaller and weaker counties, the reaper will swing his scythe before it gets interesting.

We do not need 32 counties in the AISF Championship. 16 would be plenty. And the league should be used to determine which 16.

But more importantly we do NOT need a Championship for the bottom 16 teams. For the simple reason that these players can all return immediately to club football, and many, many of them will.

Which means that any "intermediate" county success will always be tarnished by the fact that it'll be a competition in which a lot counties/players have no desire to compete. Everyone will know this and it will have a knock on effect of diluting its integrity further and further each year. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't produce a sprinkling of success stories and happy memories. But ultimately, so does club football - which often time would be better attended, higher profile and more competitive.

How can I be so confident about this?

It's simple enough. History. The problems with AI B championships and Tommy Murphy cups was never marketing, and always player interest. The lure of playing competitive top flight club football is simply too strong compared to the lure of playing lower rung county football.

People need to stop making fantasy stories in their head about how Louth or Antrim's footballers will do anything for a day out in Croke Park, and realise that the drive to play football comes from competition, not venues.

A lot of counties don't deserve to be in the same competition as the top teams. Antrim are a good example a team that fails to field a team in same jersey. These so called weaker counties are only weak because they are run by imbeciles. Get their house in order and then worry about trying to win a football match.

Surely population and money play a big part

Does it? Antrim and Derry have a bigger population that Tyrone yet they are nowhere. Two counties who should really look at themselves and wonder what the f**k they are at.

Thats because soccer is the game of choice in larges swathes of those areas. I wouldnt say Derry are nowhere. Footballers got promoted/won league and pushed DL to a point. Hurlers got to CR final. Minor footballers are AI champs 2020. The U17 hurlers won 3rd Celtic Challenge in a rown and u20 hurlers are in AI B final this Wednesday. Better balanced than Tyrone

Fear Bun Na Sceilpe

Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 03, 2021, 11:21:02 AM
Antrim try to ride 2 horses with football and hurling.

Edit: I'm not suggesting that this is their only problem but they are splitting resources a lot closer to the middle than most other counties.

drop the football lol

trailer

Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 03, 2021, 11:45:52 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 11:17:34 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 03, 2021, 11:15:25 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 11:07:28 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 10:38:53 AM
I'm sure I've mentioned it before on this thread. But to go again.

The league offers team natural progression and (mostly) a relevant standard of football.

A championship cannot do this. No matter how you dress it up, for the smaller and weaker counties, the reaper will swing his scythe before it gets interesting.

We do not need 32 counties in the AISF Championship. 16 would be plenty. And the league should be used to determine which 16.

But more importantly we do NOT need a Championship for the bottom 16 teams. For the simple reason that these players can all return immediately to club football, and many, many of them will.

Which means that any "intermediate" county success will always be tarnished by the fact that it'll be a competition in which a lot counties/players have no desire to compete. Everyone will know this and it will have a knock on effect of diluting its integrity further and further each year. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't produce a sprinkling of success stories and happy memories. But ultimately, so does club football - which often time would be better attended, higher profile and more competitive.

How can I be so confident about this?

It's simple enough. History. The problems with AI B championships and Tommy Murphy cups was never marketing, and always player interest. The lure of playing competitive top flight club football is simply too strong compared to the lure of playing lower rung county football.

People need to stop making fantasy stories in their head about how Louth or Antrim's footballers will do anything for a day out in Croke Park, and realise that the drive to play football comes from competition, not venues.

A lot of counties don't deserve to be in the same competition as the top teams. Antrim are a good example a team that fails to field a team in same jersey. These so called weaker counties are only weak because they are run by imbeciles. Get their house in order and then worry about trying to win a football match.

Surely population and money play a big part

Does it? Antrim and Derry have a bigger population that Tyrone yet they are nowhere. Two counties who should really look at themselves and wonder what the f**k they are at.

Thats because soccer is the game of choice in larges swathes of those areas. I wouldnt say Derry are nowhere. Footballers got promoted/won league and pushed DL to a point. Hurlers got to CR final. Minor footballers are AI champs 2020. The U17 hurlers won 3rd Celtic Challenge in a rown and u20 hurlers are in AI B final this Wednesday. Better balanced than Tyrone

Yes Derry are up to Div 2 and should be pushing for promotion next year and Minors did well, but it wasn't that long ago they were Div 4 which was a disgrace.
Tyrone have a lot of work to do in Hurling, but I'm not standing here saying they should be in Liam McCarthy competition which is the argument some are making for Antrim.

thewobbler

Quote from: Rossfan on August 03, 2021, 11:27:15 AM
Weaker football Counties and the reason
Hurling -Wexford, Kilkenny, Tipperary, Clare,  Limerick,  Waterford
Population Fermanagh *, Leitrim,  Longford, Carlow.
Tipp and Clare pinching above their weights recently, as did Wexfird and Limerick some years ago.
Overseas London.
No excuse Antrim,  Louth Wicklow.

* 48% of population not interested.

Some posters here seem to have the gift of prophecy!

There's absolutely nothing prophetic about looking at competitions that have previously failed, analysing why they failed, and assessing that if attempted again, the same thing would happen again. It should be as much commonsense as not eating Jellyfish.

yellowcard

Quote from: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 10:38:53 AM
I'm sure I've mentioned it before on this thread. But to go again.

The league offers team natural progression and (mostly) a relevant standard of football.

A championship cannot do this. No matter how you dress it up, for the smaller and weaker counties, the reaper will swing his scythe before it gets interesting.

We do not need 32 counties in the AISF Championship. 16 would be plenty. And the league should be used to determine which 16.

But more importantly we do NOT need a Championship for the bottom 16 teams. For the simple reason that these players can all return immediately to club football, and many, many of them will.

Which means that any "intermediate" county success will always be tarnished by the fact that it'll be a competition in which a lot counties/players have no desire to compete. Everyone will know this and it will have a knock on effect of diluting its integrity further and further each year. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't produce a sprinkling of success stories and happy memories. But ultimately, so does club football - which often time would be better attended, higher profile and more competitive.

How can I be so confident about this?

It's simple enough. History. The problems with AI B championships and Tommy Murphy cups was never marketing, and always player interest. The lure of playing competitive top flight club football is simply too strong compared to the lure of playing lower rung county football.

People need to stop making fantasy stories in their head about how Louth or Antrim's footballers will do anything for a day out in Croke Park, and realise that the drive to play football comes from competition, not venues.

So you're suggesting a single tier championship with 16 teams and that the bottom 16 sides will only play League football? 

seafoid

Quote from: Rossfan on August 03, 2021, 11:27:15 AM
Weaker football Counties and the reason
Hurling -Wexford, Kilkenny, Tipperary, Clare,  Limerick,  Waterford /
Population Fermanagh *, Leitrim,  Longford, Carlow.
Tipp and Clare pinching above their weights recently, as did Wexfird and Limerick some years ago.
Overseas London.
No excuse Antrim,  Louth Wicklow.

* 48% of population not interested.

Some posters here seem to have the gift of prophecy!

Tipperary, Clare,  Limerick,  Waterford also victims of Kerry
Soccer relevant in Longford, Sligo, Wicklow , Louth etc
Antrim never got over the Troubles.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

trailer

Quote from: seafoid on August 03, 2021, 12:32:48 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 03, 2021, 11:27:15 AM
Weaker football Counties and the reason
Hurling -Wexford, Kilkenny, Tipperary, Clare,  Limerick,  Waterford /
Population Fermanagh *, Leitrim,  Longford, Carlow.
Tipp and Clare pinching above their weights recently, as did Wexfird and Limerick some years ago.
Overseas London.
No excuse Antrim,  Louth Wicklow.

* 48% of population not interested.

Some posters here seem to have the gift of prophecy!

Tipperary, Clare,  Limerick,  Waterford also victims of Kerry
Soccer relevant in Longford, Sligo, Wicklow , Louth etc
Antrim never got over the Troubles.

I don't understand this. Please explain. Are they still fighting the troubles 23 years on?

Rossfan

Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 03, 2021, 11:34:53 AM
Sligo? Cavan?
Temporary blips.
Sligo are operating with a bit of a handicap with the town being a soccer stronghold. E.g Ros Co Board area pop 61k has around 6,500 registered players, Sligo pop 65k has around 4,800.

Wobbler, I agree that the Tailtean  Cup could go the way of TM and the AI ' B' as the GAA seem intent on  making it another meaningless tournament with all sorts of escape hatches for teams to get out of it.
As for myself I favour copying the System that serves well in  Club football, Club and County hurling, Club and County Camogie  and Club and County Ladies football.
Graded AI Championships with promotion/relegation. Now if that's to be doubled up with the League or whatever off  ye go.
However that's not what's planned to be going to this special Congress which was to be held in October.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Milltown Row2

There are arguments for those in favour of 2nd tier and those not in favour of 2nd tier competitions.

To stick with football (lets not cloud it with hurling) having a second division championship will improve competitiveness within that group to gain promotion, some teams improve with promotion and stay up and compete, but they must work on their juvenile and structures to continue to bring along those players into senior

Of course some teams go straight back down and that is the case in all sporting leagues, getting a taste of the top tier can keep the fire there. You only have to look at club teams that traditionally would have never competed at senior level but have improved structures to the point that they are winning championships, if it can be done at club level then it should be replicated at county level.

Being in the top tier does allow you more exposure which has a knocked on affect with younger ones watching and getting involved, improving participation, but wining a championship at any level produces the same effect, getting to Croke park to see your county is a great moment, the competition really doesn't feature to the fan in fairness, maybe the players have a different view.

What we need to have is good grass root structures at county level, good schools producing good teams which are the building blocks to the future, if you don't then it'll be a flash in the pan type results every 10/15 years, that has nothing to do with the competitions, be they 4th 3rd 2nd or top tier, it's totally down to the CB to fix that and plan properly to provide the structures needed.

The gaps between the top teams will continue with 'we' don't get our act together.
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea