Free Staters and their hypocrisy on their violent, bloody past

[sid waddell]

Police killed before 1921 were members of the Crown forces.
Those killed after the setting up of An Gárda Síochána were serving an Irish State and Government.
Fianna Fáil broke away and forsook violence 1926 and were elected to Government 6 years later.
Again what did 25 years of War from 1973 to 1998 achieve that wasn't already there in 1973?

1973?
Oh, at a quess, the right to vote in a local council election even if you didn't pay rates or own a business, Fair employment legislation for starters.

It's posts like this that demonstrates how ignorant some southern posters are of what went on up here.

How would it demonstrate ignorance?

All this stuff is well known, there are any number of books, historical documentaries, podcasts etc. which can tell you the history

It most certainly does not amount to a justification for slaughtering civilians for a quarter of a century

The only reason to claim ignorance on the part of others is to claim justification for that slaughter

Otherwise the reference of supposed ignorance makes no sense

Do you think there was no difference between NI from 73-98?

There clearly was change but precisely none of it was thanks to the Provos

[trueblue1234]

Police killed before 1921 were members of the Crown forces.
Those killed after the setting up of An Gárda Síochána were serving an Irish State and Government.
Fianna Fáil broke away and forsook violence 1926 and were elected to Government 6 years later.
Again what did 25 years of War from 1973 to 1998 achieve that wasn't already there in 1973?

1973?
Oh, at a quess, the right to vote in a local council election even if you didn't pay rates or own a business, Fair employment legislation for starters.

It's posts like this that demonstrates how ignorant some southern posters are of what went on up here.

How would it demonstrate ignorance?

All this stuff is well known, there are any number of books, historical documentaries, podcasts etc. which can tell you the history

It most certainly does not amount to a justification for slaughtering civilians for a quarter of a century

The only reason to claim ignorance on the part of others is to claim justification for that slaughter

Otherwise the reference of supposed ignorance makes no sense

Do you think there was no difference between NI from 73-98?

hi
There clearly was change but precisely none of it was thanks to the Provos

That's your opinion. (At least currently)

[Itchy]

Did a bomb go off close to your head Sid to turn you from a hard-core violence supporting Sinn Feiner to a little Fine Gael west brit inside 7 years. 7 years in peace times I might add.

West Brit is such a great argument, isn't it

When stuck for something to say, just fire out a witless insult, very persuasive

TFK is mainly a performative banter forum

The Ra thing became quite the in joke, half the forum at one point or another claimed to be in the Ra, a bit like the Rubberbandits do

I never supported atrocities against civilians

I used to think there was a logic to targetting Loyalists or Brits and RUC etc, possibly even certain hardline Unionist/Tory politicians, in that you are at least bringing the fight to those who are directly oppressing you

Some part of me probably still thinks that

But it was pointless, because you could never win

Why? Because the people never supported the Ra, simple as

And when the people don't support you, when you have no mandate, when you have no chance of winning, when your demands are totally unrealistic, any plausible moral case falls away

Atrocities against civilians were an indivisible part of the Ra's campaign, a primary modus operandi

You can't support a party that claims to campaign for social justice, but which has as its central ideology the idea that you must defend an armed campaign of which utterly pointless and civilian murder for 27 years was an integral part

I expect that will become an issue for quite a few SF supporters down South during the coming years

I mean, it's a bit rich to call out Boris Johnson for making horrible racist comments and comments which were prejudiced against gay people back in 2002, while at the same time defending the people who did Kingsmills

So those posts Angelo put up was your attempt at satire? Jaysus lad wise up will ya. More like some SF heavy gave you a slap I'd say.

[sid waddell]

Police killed before 1921 were members of the Crown forces.
Those killed after the setting up of An Gárda Síochána were serving an Irish State and Government.
Fianna Fáil broke away and forsook violence 1926 and were elected to Government 6 years later.
Again what did 25 years of War from 1973 to 1998 achieve that wasn't already there in 1973?

1973?
Oh, at a quess, the right to vote in a local council election even if you didn't pay rates or own a business, Fair employment legislation for starters.

It's posts like this that demonstrates how ignorant some southern posters are of what went on up here.

How would it demonstrate ignorance?

All this stuff is well known, there are any number of books, historical documentaries, podcasts etc. which can tell you the history

It most certainly does not amount to a justification for slaughtering civilians for a quarter of a century

The only reason to claim ignorance on the part of others is to claim justification for that slaughter

Otherwise the reference of supposed ignorance makes no sense

Do you think there was no difference between NI from 73-98?

hi
There clearly was change but precisely none of it was thanks to the Provos

That's your opinion.

It was thanks to peaceful politics, Sunningdale as mentioned earlier brought the Official Unionists to accept power sharing for the first time even if it was to fall apart

Peaceful politics had already demonstrated it was effective

It was the Civil Rights Movement in NI which ended gerrymandering - not the Provos

In any political movement, discipline is key

The emergence of the Provos largely destroyed the prospect of a disciplined, peaceful political mass movement which could have made many more serious gains for Northern Catholics a lot quicker than peaceful politics was able to amid the backdrop of constant killing

[sid waddell]

So those posts Angelo put up was your attempt at satire? Jaysus lad wise up will ya. More like some SF heavy gave you a slap I'd say.

Interesting that you presume SF people resort to violence

[trueblue1234]

Police killed before 1921 were members of the Crown forces.
Those killed after the setting up of An Gárda Síochána were serving an Irish State and Government.
Fianna Fáil broke away and forsook violence 1926 and were elected to Government 6 years later.
Again what did 25 years of War from 1973 to 1998 achieve that wasn't already there in 1973?

1973?
Oh, at a quess, the right to vote in a local council election even if you didn't pay rates or own a business, Fair employment legislation for starters.

It's posts like this that demonstrates how ignorant some southern posters are of what went on up here.

How would it demonstrate ignorance?

All this stuff is well known, there are any number of books, historical documentaries, podcasts etc. which can tell you the history

It most certainly does not amount to a justification for slaughtering civilians for a quarter of a century

The only reason to claim ignorance on the part of others is to claim justification for that slaughter

Otherwise the reference of supposed ignorance makes no sense

Do you think there was no difference between NI from 73-98?

hi
There clearly was change but precisely none of it was thanks to the Provos

That's your opinion.

It was thanks to peaceful politics, Sunningdale as mentioned earlier brought the Official Unionists to accept power sharing for the first time even if it was to fall apart

Peaceful politics had already demonstrated it was effective

It was the Civil Rights Movement in NI which ended gerrymandering - not the Provos

In any political movement, discipline is key

The emergence of the Provos largely destroyed the prospect of a disciplined, peaceful political mass movement which could have made many more serious gains for Northern Catholics a lot quicker than peaceful politics was able to amid the backdrop of constant killing

In your opinion.

[Angelo]

Police killed before 1921 were members of the Crown forces.
Those killed after the setting up of An Gárda Síochána were serving an Irish State and Government.
Fianna Fáil broke away and forsook violence 1926 and were elected to Government 6 years later.
Again what did 25 years of War from 1973 to 1998 achieve that wasn't already there in 1973?

1973?
Oh, at a quess, the right to vote in a local council election even if you didn't pay rates or own a business, Fair employment legislation for starters.

It's posts like this that demonstrates how ignorant some southern posters are of what went on up here.

How would it demonstrate ignorance?

All this stuff is well known, there are any number of books, historical documentaries, podcasts etc. which can tell you the history

It most certainly does not amount to a justification for slaughtering civilians for a quarter of a century

The only reason to claim ignorance on the part of others is to claim justification for that slaughter

Otherwise the reference of supposed ignorance makes no sense

Do you think there was no difference between NI from 73-98?

hi
There clearly was change but precisely none of it was thanks to the Provos

That's your opinion.

It was thanks to peaceful politics, Sunningdale as mentioned earlier brought the Official Unionists to accept power sharing for the first time even if it was to fall apart

Peaceful politics had already demonstrated it was effective

It was the Civil Rights Movement in NI which ended gerrymandering - not the Provos

In any political movement, discipline is key

The emergence of the Provos largely destroyed the prospect of a disciplined, peaceful political mass movement which could have made many more serious gains for Northern Catholics a lot quicker than peaceful politics was able to amid the backdrop of constant killing

In your opinion.

In his uninformed, contradictory opinion.

[trailer]

OK. Tell me this. How did the murder of Joanne Mathers a Mother of a two year old out collecting census forms help deliver what we as a nationalist population have today?

[Angelo]

OK. Tell me this. How did the murder of Joanne Mathers a Mother of a two year old out collecting census forms help deliver what we as a nationalist population have today?

It didn't.

You're being hysterical and selectively picking out certain events.

A theatrical performance.

[Rossfan]

I note I've had no responses or comments on the sectarian murder of Senator Fox.

[Angelo]

I note I've had no responses or comments the sectarian murder of Senator Fox.

You're the arsehole who tried to pretend Dunmanway never happened.

You have some neck to then seek condemnation on Fox.

How was the murder sectarian btw?

[tonto1888]

My granny went to Bobby Sands funeral yet she was no lover of the IRA. In fact, she didn't have much of a relationship with her brother in law. My mother has been an SDLP voter all her adult life and would have little time for the IRA, yet she was sympathetic to their cause in her own way. The arguments from free staters here are very simplistic.
Also, if anyone says the Provos had nothing to do with getting things going in the 6 counties they are sorely mistaken

[dublin7]

My granny went to Bobby Sands funeral yet she was no lover of the IRA. In fact, she didn't have much of a relationship with her brother in law. My mother has been an SDLP voter all her adult life and would have little time for the IRA, yet she was sympathetic to their cause in her own way. The arguments from free staters here are very simplistic.
Also, if anyone says the Provos had nothing to do with getting things going in the 6 counties they are sorely mistaken

The IRA and unionist terrorists held back NI for years and they're only starting to recover now. At the start of the 90s the Irish economy started to pick up and multi national companies started operating here.

NI didn't get any benefit from this due to climate the terrorists had created and not only missed out on the economic boom but now rely on the UK government to keep them solvent.

That's quite a legacy for over two decades of terrorism on both sides

[general_lee]

My granny went to Bobby Sands funeral yet she was no lover of the IRA. In fact, she didn't have much of a relationship with her brother in law. My mother has been an SDLP voter all her adult life and would have little time for the IRA, yet she was sympathetic to their cause in her own way. The arguments from free staters here are very simplistic.
Also, if anyone says the Provos had nothing to do with getting things going in the 6 counties they are sorely mistaken

The IRA and unionist terrorists held back NI for years and they're only starting to recover now. At the start of the 90s the Irish economy started to pick up and multi national companies started operating here.

NI didn't get any benefit from this due to climate the terrorists had created and not only missed out on the economic boom but now rely on the UK government to keep them solvent.

That's quite a legacy for over two decades of terrorism on both sides

You don't know what you're talking about.

The north was in an annual deficit before the troubles even kicked off. Certainly the troubles didn't help in any way, shape or form; but here we are 23 years post GFA agreement and still an economic basket case.

There has been an abject failure on behalf of the UK government to properly invest in the North which they proclaim to hold so dear. Our workforce is paid less than the rest of the UK, less qualified than the rest of the UK, have the lowest employment rate in the UK, highest rate of economically inactive people, lowest rate of start-ups, over-reliance on public sector, inefficient (& segregated) education system, brain-drain, etc etc. You can't blame the Ra for all that, almost a quarter of a century after the troubles ended.

[Evil Genius]

Bollocks.

People don't sympathise with a martyr [i.e.Sands] unless they also sympathise with his cause.

There's your "bollocks", right there.

It is entirely possible for people to sympathise with a cause (United Ireland) but not with a method of achieving it (Provisional campaign). Which is why Provisional SF had minimal political support pre-GFA.

Likewise with Sands, it is possible to sympathise with the individual, but not endorse his methods.

More pertinently, it is possible not to sympathise either with the individual or his methods, but still attend his funeral for some other reason (in this case, to express anger and revulsion at Thatcher and the British Government).

Which is exactly the same as 1916, in that there was no great support for the Rebels before or during the Rising, but there was widespread anger and revulsion against the British Government after the executions.

Were there many unionists in attendance?

More bollocks.

The fact Unionists didn't sympathise with the individual, his cause or his methods and so didn't attend, does not permit you to contend that those who were there automatically did sympathise with all three, or even any* of those three elements.

Which is yet more evidence to show why no-one will ever mistake you for a student of Socratic Dialogue... 


* - It's the Thatcher thing again