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[Rufus, what you say is right to an extent but if you follow your logic then Harps and Pearse Ogs really should be transferring to the bigger stage but they have failed.]

Rufus, what you say is right to an extent but if you follow your logic then Harps and Pearse Ogs really should be transferring to the bigger stage but they have failed.  They have been the dominant underage teams in the last 10 years but have not brought this successfully to senior level. 

Nail on the head BC - that's exactly what is happening.

Sure enough Cross can keep the young players interested because of the success of the senior teams but that was not the case when me made the breakthrough.  We did not have dominanace at underage, Clans were the main team at that stage. If you look at the players that the Ogs and harps teams had on the Minor teams, Ronan Clarke, McKinney,Mallon,Swift,Quigley,Toal, Vernon and many more on reputation alone they would be as good, if not better than most of us at that age.  They had success at schools and club level so the were used to winning.  At a time when Armagh football is at it's strongest (and I don't care what anyone says to the contrary, but club football in Armagh has got more good players playing now than when I started) teams seem to be unable to break the run.  To my view, the same old lines come out every year with no change to the way things are being done. I know it is easy for me to say all this from my "foreign" homestead now, and I am sure some of my old team mates would want me to stay quiet as I know some are definitely lurkers of the site, but Cross have won 3 Armagh seniors, 2 Minors and 1 u-21 in my time on the board as a poster(shit I am here over 3 years now!). Each year the press and the people in this board have ran off the same old reasons why.  It is maybe time that people looked at what is really happening, take the Cross model,and put it in place.  People I would suggest have tried and failed, so maybe the magic ingredient is the difference and it will stay secret!

Clans (and Mullabawn) were the main team teams whens Cross broke through, but their dominance was nothing compared to the dominance that Cross have had. Cross's dominance now stretches eleven years and counting and is nearly ingrained into the psyche of the club scene.

As for models, forget it. You can put all the scientific research into perfecting the model set up in a club - if the players don't have the commitment or right attitude, then you're pissing into the wind.

Transfer out anyone?  

Final Countdown

A certain bottle of tonic wine have any thing to do with it?

Nothing whatsoever to do with it - that bottle is merely a symptom of the underlying problem.

Brokencrossbar wrote

Looking at it now form the outside a few things occur to me.  Many club structures must be very weak once they get to senior level.  As has been observed by a few here, until recent years we have not been overly successful at underage.  Not blowing my trumpet but it wasn't until the underage team that I played on came around that we started to dominate.  I was blessed with playing on a superb underage team which was the genesis of the current dominance.  We were, however, no more dominant in our age groups than say, Pearse Ogs were.  We won the 1989 and the 1993 minors.  Ogs won 4-5 in a row at minors during the mid 90's.  The 1989 team had Califf, Colm O'Neill, Joe Fitz, Gary McShane, Frank Shields who went on to the senior squad and the rest of the senior sqaud apart from a 2-3 old heads was made of the 1993 team.  We did not have the continued success that the Ogs had and they fell apart.  The Harps had similar success and haven't made the breakthrough.  It is very difficult to put a reason on this.  While we may have greater pick than say t Dromintee, we do not have the same potenial numbers that the city clubs have or the Lurgan teams.

 

and

Also the whole success breeds success is a bit of a cop out in my view.  It certainly breeds confidence but it doesn't breed ability and a will to stick at it.  It may be easier for us to keep kids interested, but in 1995 whenever Mullaghbawn beat us it would have been very easy for a lot of the younger ones to say well f**k this we haven't won since 1985 we'll never win and we could just go on the drink or head off to Australia or whatever.  We didn't.  We had just been humiliated on television.  Some of you may remember the documentary done with the Down team of 1994.  We were humiliated on national television and it would have been easy to hide.  We had no success to fall back on, we had no senior medals(apart from Jim and Jarlath McConville), we had a manager being ripped apart within the club because of the way he been looking after the team.  We didn't hide and got on with it.  We may have been lucky but we made our own luck instead of excuses and we reaped the rewards. We may not win 20 in a row but we could give it a good rattle all things being equal.

I wrote on the Harps thread, in discussion as to the difference between ourselves and Cross;

Cross produce quality players alright, but if you look at their underage success, we are on at least a par with them, if not better, as are the Ogs. What Cross manage to do is keep all their good players on board. As an example, that Harps team playing yesterday should have been the team that won an Ulster Minor Club Championship, three years tomorrow. Yet in that short timespan, look how many - for one reason or another - did not feature yesterday? Harps, as an example, are not bringing through fully their underage talent, and as a consequence, any hope of the Seniors making the breakthrough will become an absolute pipe dream.

and

There is also an element of 'success breeding success', and there appears to be a culture in Cross of looking up to their local heroes and trying to emulate them. Think about that culture and what it means, and compare that to our own Club as we enter 2007!

Enough said! As for last Saturday, I could genuinely write pages about the difference between Cross and ourselves. We gave Cross a good run for their money in a County Semi-final at the tail end of 2003, with a young team, half made up of minors and under 21s. The future looked great! As of the start of this year, it is likely that less than half of that team will be playing Senior football. In contrast, Cross have successfully moved on, changing their team (for positive reasons) and coming back totally reinvented. The Harps on the other hand have kept losing many of the underage prospects that we had.

I don't normally talk out of shop about what goes on in Committee meetings. However our inability to keep on board much of our underage talent is a real cause for concern in meetings, and recently a photo of our successful minor team of 2004 was produced which showed that over half of the thirty in the picture no longer play football with the Harps. Meanwhile in Cross there is yet more success which gives more and more underage players the incentive to get to the Senior team - what better than healthy competition to keep bringing out the best in your resources?!

I can see the Harps' problems mirrored throughout the County. What is required in our Club is a sea change in the culture of our young players. Given that, and what I saw in Mullabrack last Saturday, I could see Cross doing twenty in a row at Senior level - and I'm not exaggerating!    

We both appear to agree that your underage success is not the reason for the extent of your dominance at Senior level. Obviously having exceptional footballers is a help! I would have to take issue though with 'success breeding success'. I feel the very fact that we agree that Cross's success is not based on exceptional underage exploits means there is another reason.

Success breeding success is an absolute reality, though whether it is a cop out or not, for a variety of people is another matter. Success breeding success works on several levels and of course has an equal an opposite effect elsewhere, i.e. failure breeding failure - two examples - the two Pearse Og games in Keady versus Cross when Ogs had the game in their hands and could not finish it off - Rangers had the self belief built up by their great success, the Ogs the opposite, lack of self belief.

The second example - last week's Under 21 semi-final - Cross fielded their best possible team -  the Harps did not. Cross to my mind are the epitome of success breeding success. They are now maximising their resources - the whole thing is self fulfilling - the more success the greater the ambition amongst young players, the greater the competition for places, the greater the pick etc etc. And of course, as a consequence, the average attitude of a young Rangers players is far ahead of the attitude of a young Harps player. It pains me to say it, but that's a fact.  

The reality is BC1, that you have enjoyed such success at Senior Level, over such a period of time, that lack of success has become a totally foreign concept!



 

Just before the season starts I'd like to wish Joe Kernan, the Armagh teams and all their splendid supporters all the very best in 2007. May you achieve my heart's desire.

Thanks Shane - that's decent of you! 

Out of curiosity, what is your heart's desire?

Ah here...

Some eegit just said

there are far more Association football clubs than GAA clubs

That's hilarious

Is it not true? There are literally hundreds of soccer clubs in Dublin. Many of them amount to a bunch of lads meeting up on a Saturday for a league match on a council pitch, with a game of midweek indoor thrown in in lieu of training. They're still clubs though.

In Armagh City there are two Gaelic Football Clubs, and off the top of my head in and around ten soccer clubs. The two Gaelic Football Clubs would have in the region of twenty five teams - I would guess the soccer clubs would have less than twenty teams. The gaelic teams mostly would have squads of 20-25 in number, the soccer teams mostly 14-17. There might be a discrepancy of clubs in the region of 10:2, but there's no doubt there are a lot more Gaelic players.

Out of curiosity, does the average soccer head in the South have that much anitpathy to the GAA - I'm used to it in the North from the OWC contingent, but I'm a bit taken aback by the level of animosity shown there!

From my experience, it depends where you are. In Donegal, no. Its mostly the same people playing and watching both sports.

I also lived for many years on the south side of Dublin. Most of the lads I knew either played or watched soccer or both, but had little interest in GAA. I never got involved in any GAA club in Dublin, but I still met a fairly representative cross-section of Dublin life through college and work. Never saw much actual antipathy though.

Fair point about the number of teams per club. There are some massive soccer clubs though too.

Sorry - should have added J70 that many of the soccer clubs, particularly those pub based clubs with one team, would be made up of GAA players and there would be little or no contest as to where their loyalties lie, i.e. GAA.

Cross are a special club, and if they complete the treble would be a remarkable achievement and at a canter as stated already. But it will be an interesting final on Saturday, unlike our Seniors mosts of these boys have beaten Cross in a county final in the under 21s three years ago. Will any of the harps boys take a run up?

Cross are out on their own alright but a few facts are pertinent here! Cross have won the last eleven Senior Titles in a row - starting in 1996. Prior to that, their previous County Title was when they beat the Ogs in Keady in 1986.    Cross failed to even get to a County Final in the following nine years, despite having a pile of top names in that period.

Cross will do a remarkable treble alright if they knock over the Under 21 title this week-end. But they do not dominate under age any more than the Harps or the Ogs do. Off the top of my head, Harps have most titles at Minor, the Ogs at Juvenile and Cross at Under 21.

What Cross have developed is a system whereby their great success is generating yet more and more success, and there does not need to be underage domination to continue their domination at Senior. The opposite is happening at other Clubs. Rangers dominance is a massive tribute to that Club - particularly given their success beyond the County. However I feel that the rest of the Clubs in Armagh have not made their task of knocking over County titles as difficult as it should be.   

Ah here...

Some eegit just said

there are far more Association football clubs than GAA clubs

That's hilarious

Is it not true? There are literally hundreds of soccer clubs in Dublin. Many of them amount to a bunch of lads meeting up on a Saturday for a league match on a council pitch, with a game of midweek indoor thrown in in lieu of training. They're still clubs though.

In Armagh City there are two Gaelic Football Clubs, and off the top of my head in and around ten soccer clubs. The two Gaelic Football Clubs would have in the region of twenty five teams - I would guess the soccer clubs would have less than twenty teams. The gaelic teams mostly would have squads of 20-25 in number, the soccer teams mostly 14-17. There might be a discrepancy of clubs in the region of 10:2, but there's no doubt there are a lot more Gaelic players.

Out of curiosity, does the average soccer head in the South have that much anitpathy to the GAA - I'm used to it in the North from the OWC contingent, but I'm a bit taken aback by the level of animosity shown there!

There is also an element of 'success breeding success', and there appears to be a culture in Cross of looking up to their local heroes and trying to emulate them. Think about that culture and what it means, and compare that to our own Club as we enter 2007

Nail on head Rufus. Was very disappointed in the performance. Cross a country mile ahead in terms of skill, commitment, fitness, and probably a lack of beer over xmas. I think i saw a glimpse of club footballs future in armagh and its not good. That said im just an outsider looking in but concerned about what i saw.

First of all Maddog, sorry I didn't get to meet up over Christmas - Happy New Year to you and the Good Lady.

As for last Saturday, I could genuinely write pages about the difference between Cross and ourselves. We gave Cross a good run for their money in a County Semi-final at the tail end of 2003, with a young team, half made up of minors and under 21s. The future looked great! As of the start of this year, it is likely that less than half of that team will be playing Senior football. In contrast, Cross have successfully moved on, changing their team (for positive reasons) and coming back totally reinvented. The Harps on the other hand have kept losing many of the underage prospects that we had.

I don't normally talk out of shop about what goes on in Committee meetings. However our inability to keep on board much of our underage talent is a real cause for concern in meetings, and recently a photo of our successful minor team of 2004 was produced which showed that over half of the thirty in the picture no longer play football with the Harps. Meanwhile in Cross there is yet more success which gives more and more underage players the incentive to get to the Senior team - what better than healthy competition to keep bringing out the best in your resources?!

I can see the Harps' problems mirrored throughout the County. What is required in our Club is a sea change in the culture of our young players. Given that, and what I saw in Mullabrack last Saturday, I could see Cross doing twenty in a row at Senior level - and I'm not exaggerating!    

just my opinion and just a little biased i know but for pure atmosphere and history it has to be Anfield for me

Aye, so good they can't wait to leave it themselves. Stop making a fool of yourself.

I thought it was financial considerations that were forcing the move out of Anfield - nothing to do with lack of atmosphere or history? Am I wrong?

[Harps v Crossmaglen Rangers]

Harps v Crossmaglen Rangers

Harps' hopes of achieving back to back Under 21 Titles came badly unstuck at Mullabrack yesterday, when they were well beaten by a much more determined and street wise Crossmaglen Rangers team. This was a game that the Harps will want to forget in a hurry as they were beaten all over the park and as a consequence suffered a very heavy defeat.

The match was played on a heavy pitch in very cold but clear conditions. Harps started the game playing into a strong wind, and were soon in trouble with Cross dominating around the middle and putting in good ball to their dangerous attackers. They managed the opening point and repeated the dose from the kick out. A long ball in caused confusion in the Harps defence and led to a one on one situation with the keeper that resulted in a well taken goal. The Harps were reeling and struggling to make any impact at all. Kevin Kelly's free faded left and Joe Quigley had a wide before Cross extended their lead with a point from a free. Two further points were added, one a fifty yard free. Rangers for the first time in the match were guilty of some bad shooting, but Harps could not capitalise and were guilty of dropping shots short into the keeper's hands. Another long range point followed for Rangers, but Harps could only muster two wides from Kevin Kelly frees, as they struggled to kick into the breeze. Harps' attempts at damage limitation suffered a blow when Cross got in for their second goal just before half time. A ball in midfield should have been cut out – instead possession was turned over and a brilliant pass over the top of the defence left a second one on one and as before, an expert finish was applied.

Half time, Harps 0-00, Crossmaglen Rangers 2-06.

Any hopes that Harps had of recovering the situation were not helped by the conditions, as the wind that they had struggled to play into had died down significantly by the start of the second half. These hopes were then totally extinguished when Rangers took the game by the scruff of the neck and knocked over three quick points on the restart. Harps managed to get on the scoreboard with a point from a Joe Quigley free kick and Declan Coulter added a point from play. Rangers responded with two points of their own before Joe Quigley pointed another free and Declan Coulter managed a goal after his shot was deflected to the net. Rangers appeared to sense the need to step up a gear and had a point and a goal, the latter as a result of a flowing move through the Harps's defence that left the spare man at the back post with an easy fisted finish. Kevin Kelly pointed a Harps' free but Rangers were able to respond in kind, finishing the match as convincing winners.

Final score, Harps 1-04, Crossmaglen Rangers 3-13.

Harps had few players who will look back on this match with any sort of satisfaction, although the efforts of Joe Quigley, Ciaran Clifford and Declan Coulter are worthy of mention whilst Charlie Vernon was, by the proverbial street, our best player on the pitch. The Harps lined out as follows. Johnny Daly, Karl Grimes, Ciaran Clifford, Fergus McAleavey, Mark McConville, Charlie Vernon, Smackers McAnaney (Cormac Toner), Gareth Swift, Simon Lennon, Martin McCoy, Declan Coulter 1-1, Joe Quigley 0-2 (0-2 frees), Darren Ward, Kevin Kelly 0-1 (0-1 free) and Liam Devlin.       

Cross were too strong all over the park. Dont think Dromintee will count, to be honest that Cross team would beat most senior Division 1 teams in Armagh.

How do they keep producing such quality players??

Funny - I had this conversation with a fellow Harps man recently. Cross produce quality players alright, but if you look at their underage success, we are on at least a par with them, if not better, as are the Ogs. What Cross manage to do is keep all their good players on board. As an example, that Harps team playing yesterday should have been the team that won an Ulster Minor Club Championship, three years tomorrow. Yet in that short timespan, look how many - for one reason or another - did not feature yesterday? Harps, as an example, are not bringing through fully their underage talent, and as a consequence, any hope of the Seniors making the breakthrough will become an absolute pipe dream.

There is also an element of 'success breeding success', and there appears to be a culture in Cross of looking up to their local heroes and trying to emulate them. Think about that culture and what it means, and compare that to our own Club as we enter 2007!

Enough said!   

jaysus lads, that was totally unexpected today. where dd it all go wrong?

Bit of a disaster all round today Uladh - I'll get a report up later, but the better team won, end off! I think the final score was 3-13 to 1-04 - I'll tot up my notes later.

Talking to the neighbours (Ogs) who were at the other semi. I think it was in Ballymacnab - apparently Dromintee won handy enough after being two down at half time.

Merry Christmas & A Happy New Year to all, even Fearon!

You're getting soft in your ould age Bummer!!

Well - all the pressies are out and awaiting the rush down the stairs early tomorrow morning!!

A Very Happy Christmas to yez all - and I'll be speaking to ye before the New Year!! 

In light of the bans handed out for the battle of Omagh, it seems that the GAA has come down heavy on the lesser teams for a similar incident yet it wasn't by national role models beemed out on national TV, surely something has to be done about the consistancy of bans like this.

Im not condoning the incident.

Couldn't agree more Spirit. Couldn't see that happening to two of the top Clubs, or indeed Counties. Danny Murphy set his stall out early by promising a crack down - from the TV pictures I could see, the violence was nothing compared to that in Omagh for example, yet 36 week bans are being waived about.

I'm not saying the bans are inappropriate, justy that there are serious inconsistencies and it stinks of slapping the weak, i.e. smaller clubs! 

Would have to say the Genius that is Mini Holmes, brother of tyrone midfielder

Funny, I thought you had left by the time Mini joined - but there you go!   

Check out the reactions of Pele, Tostao and the crowd behind the nets!   

Not taking away from Pele, but Tony Cascarino was regularly knocking them in from a few yards out for Millwall in the 80s . . .

Good God, your knowledge of World Cup folklore merits a Grade F.

Those aren't pictures of a goal, those are the iconic images of a save from Gordon Banks that is often called 'the greatest save of all time'.

Hi MW

I'm aware it wasn't a goal.

We can only take this world cup moment based on the footage we have of it. Banks made a superb save - no one will argue that, but my opinion (and i'm happy to give my opinion on this, and not just eat what's spoonfed to me) is that it was a poor finish by Pele. He should have scored from there and not headered it down so much.

Incidentally this save (great save) and Bobby Moore's tackle on Pele in the same match are often cited as the reasons that this was the best soccer match of all time. The match was reshown on BBC1 when Brazil and England met in 2002 world cup - just like some of the All ireland gold matches, it hasn't aged well! It makes for fairly lame fare watching it now.

cheers

The save was just unbelievable and my favourite non GAA sporting moment of all time. It was not just the save though. That move started, if memory serves me correctly, with a shot/cross from Francis Lee on the England right that Felix gathered well. He rolled the ball to Carlos Alberto who advanced towards half way and hit the most brilliant pass, with the outside of his right boot, over 50 or so yards, inside Terry Cooper and into the path of Jairzinho. His first touch was too heavy and he sent the ball, bouncing on a rock hard surface, hurtling towards the end line. He sprinted after it and somehow got his foot around it to send over the perfect cross. The rest is history! 

By the way Turk - agree about watching the match again, though I would suggest that no matter what match you watch in it's entirety, you will always fast forward some bits. That game though was a marvellous occasion, between the first and second best teams in the world, with great players on both sides! Tremendous!