Should Leo stand down until investigation complete?

Started by macker15, March 15, 2021, 07:47:33 AM

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Should  Leo Stand down

Yay
30 (75%)
Nay
10 (25%)

Total Members Voted: 40

straightred

Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 09:06:36 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 09:00:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 08:52:15 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 08:27:36 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 05:32:07 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 04:46:27 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 04:10:21 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 16, 2021, 04:04:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:49:58 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 02:54:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute

do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Why should anybody forget about Sinn Fein now when any time the PIRA are brought up you bring up the old IRA?

Shinners created these rules

Don't complain about the rules - you created them

SF and SF supporters like you have zero moral authority to complain about the misdeeds of any other politicians because SF for years has been about corruption and murder

Whatever has gone on in FF and FG for decades, SF are far, far worse

Because this issue has nothing to do with SF and despite some us of trying to redirect you and others to the 520 page SF bashing thread you and your buddies just keep coming back.

SF aren't speaking for me when they are calling for his resignation. I'm speaking for myself any only for myself when I say that he should step aside. I'm not asking for him to give up his seat or anything like that but rather I'm simply saying that while he is under criminal investigation for leaking a document (which he admits leaking) then it is completely inappropriate for him to hold the office of Tainiste or any other Ministerial job.

The thread title is "Should  Leo stand down until investigation complete?"
In a word... Yes
It's a fair enough opinion to believe Varadkar should stand aside, taken alone on the merits of the case

The point is, it's would be a totally ludicrous opinion for any SF supporter to believe Varadkar should stand aside after denying that O'Neill and Adams should stand aside when they were under criminal investigation

And that's the view SF supporters here seem to hold

So that total hypocrisy naturally becomes a focus of discussion

SF supporters continually defend SF by invoking things which are nothing to do with SF

They are the masters of illegitimate and trolling whataboutery

But bringing up Adams and O'Neill's refusal to stand aside when under criminal investigation is perfectly legitimate - it is to demonstrate that SF have no moral standards

The thing is that the more SF whine about this, the more they are actually driving public sympathy for Varadkar from a place where he might not have had it

SF's interventions very much help Varadkar in the court of public opinion

Nothing more was needed after the first sentence

That would be the case if any party or political group made the claim and not SF. The very fact it was SF is what makes the rest of the post relevant

Oh FFS. How many times has this to be explained. You just can't help yourself.

This has nothing to do with SF. This is Chay Bowe's story which the Village Magazine ran with. SF or (indeed any other political party) had nothing to do with it so I've no idea what you mean by "made the claim". SF have the same relevance to the story as Paul Murphy or anyone in the Social Democrats or the Labour party has, i.e. none.

I think i'll bow out. Reminder to self: never try to moderate on a forum again

Mary Lou was on national radio this morning demanding Leo resign. I've no idea if Paul Murphy, the Social Democrats  or the Labour Party think he should resign as I didn't hear or see anything from them in the media in recent days.

Now if you think Mary Lou went on national radio specifically to say Leo should resign in her own personal capacity and not as the leader of SF you can't expect anyone to believe that.

I suppose one way SF can deny accusations of hypocrisy is to deny all knowledge or claim it never happened.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/leo-varadkar-needs-go-mary-23724545

https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-newstalk-breakfast/mary-lou-mcdonald-calls-for-leo-varadkar-to-resign
And this thread started long before Mary Lou went on the radio so you'll have to try harder to twist the story. For what its worth I didn't support SFs vote of no confidence in November but I did think that Varadkar should have stepped aside back then. If anything the case for that is now stronger given that this has been upgraded to a criminal investigation. That SF and other parties are seeking to gain political gain is irrelevant. That's was opposition do and frankly its what they are expected to do so i'm not interested in that noise.

The self proclaimed party of law and order have been found badly wanting. Back after the banking crisis they were promising to clean irish politics up. Then they got behind the wheel and it didn't take long for them to become as bad as FF ever were.
Actually the Irish governments over the last decade are widely looked upon abroad as a rare beacon of common sense in a sea of populist lunacy internationally

Very far from perfect for sure but up until the pandemic, under any reasonable analysis you'd have to say they did a pretty decent job overall of stabilising the country and giving it a decent platform to thrive, while helping to advance major reform of social policy

And I've never voted FG in me life, and never will

Meanwhile Sinn Fein supporters are on here literally boasting about the party trying to run Northern Ireland and its society into the ground

Given the calibre of poster who supports Sinn Fein here, you'd have to say NI has the government it deserves

The mindset of the SF supporter is that they genuinely believe that they could waltz into the Dail in the morning and fixing everything would be a piece of cake

Reminds me of Homer Simpson running for sanitation commissioner
And i probably wont be popular for admitting it but I have voted FG on more than one occasion. I wouldn't dream of voting for them under Varadkar though as in my opinion he has set them back years with his populist nonsense, constant undermining of FF and social media antics. Coveney, as shown in his strong work on Brexit, would have been a much better choice but the ship has probably sailed for him now.
Fine Gael/Labour has usually worked well enough - though I'd much prefer Labour/Fine Gael/Green

For a long time Vincent Browne talked about a Fine Gael/Sinn Fein coalition - part of me would like to see it happen - that would be a real case of senior hurling for Sinn Fein

As it is they're playing Junior D
Looking way ahead I'd hate that. We badly need a clear choice and if that's FG as the main party on one side and SF the main party on the other then fine. If you don't want to vote for one of them then find out who the others will align with in coalition and pick your poison so to speak.
I do think its time for SF to be in government too - we've spent 100 years rinsing and repeating. There are some areas that need a fresh approach (e.g. housing and education).

weareros

Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 09:02:05 PM
Quote from: weareros on March 16, 2021, 08:57:56 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 16, 2021, 08:10:17 PM
Quote from: weareros on March 16, 2021, 07:01:03 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 06:38:02 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute

do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?

Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?

It wasnt addressed to you  but even so you tried to answer but couldn't get by the first line. Never mind.

My own opinion on this is when it goes to DPP, and if DPP thinks there is a case to answer, then he should step aside. But I think it's a bit extreme to ask a politician to step aside as Gardai investigate a complaint. Gardai can only investigate and send to DPP. They won't even be making a recommendation on whether charges need to be filed, just presenting the facts. The DPP will decide. Anyone who is following can see that there's no love lost between Tainiste and the gentleman who made the complaint. Likewise I think Village Magazine's reading of Official Secrets Act is flawed. I know Angelo disagrees. But this is the magazine that gave us Gemma O'Doherty, so I won't be taking their word as gospel either. The pols and commentators need to let Gardai investigate. I think what they will find is that he was within his rights to share. The pay contract was impacting all GPs, not just the GPs in the IMO Union. The IMO had already announced the package before he met the other Union President. His judgement was poor not to talk to Harris first. I think the bigger crime is why taxpayers money to a Union that was able to give their CEO a 9 million retirement package was an "Official Secret" in the first place, in particular when the pay was impacting all GPs. We'll see.

Village magazine's line is backed up by a senior counsel though.

I still have not been able to make sense of the solicitors argument. And I hate to point out that I think he was a SF candidate, because I don't want to be accused of the SF word. He seems to be saying that if official information worked on by a public official is confidential (eg the draft pay agreement), when it gets into the hands of a member of government (eg Leo), it remains confidential, and thus Leo is not exempt from OSA. That seems a good argument except for one fact - a public official is not authorised to share confidential information unless authorised by a Minister (eg Member of Govt) or State Authority (eg Attorney General); a Minister (ie a member of Government per Act), is authorised. So the official information is passing into the hands of someone who is not authorised, to the hands of someone who is authorised. The Village solicitor is making the claim that it carries its confidentiality as it passes hands from a public official to a Minister. Is that what he is saying? If so, I think it's interesting logic but flawed logic.

Surely you can't authorise yourself ?

It never explicitly states that a member of government needs authorisation from another member of government. Some earlier articles (including Village) jumped to the conclusion that a Minister was a Line Minister, and Simon Harris needed to provide authorisation. But the Act is clear that a Minister is a member of government. And a Minister can authorise. I think that alone clears Varadkar, even if what he did was not best practice and showed him to be a poor team player with questionable judgement and people leadership skills.




Louther

The point that senior counsel backs the village or says XYZ is mute and not a point to hang your hat on. You will find another senior counsel who will see it the opposite and likely another couple who will see it completely different again. It's what's they do, argue points of law and take different positions. And get paid massive money for doing so but they not always right and one party will find themselves on the losing side.


sid waddell

Quote from: Louther on March 16, 2021, 09:21:17 PM
The point that senior counsel backs the village or says XYZ is mute and not a point to hang your hat on. You will find another senior counsel who will see it the opposite and likely another couple who will see it completely different again. It's what's they do, argue points of law and take different positions. And get paid massive money for doing so but they not always right and one party will find themselves on the losing side.
Sure you can get a paid "expert" to tell you anything

You can find a scientist to say that global warming is a hoax

You can find a doctor to say that there's no link between smoking and cancer

You can also find doctors advocating for full opening up of society in the face of a murderous pandemic

We live in the age of the personal brand, of the "marketplace of ideas"




Franko

Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 09:36:13 PM
Quote from: Louther on March 16, 2021, 09:21:17 PM
The point that senior counsel backs the village or says XYZ is mute and not a point to hang your hat on. You will find another senior counsel who will see it the opposite and likely another couple who will see it completely different again. It's what's they do, argue points of law and take different positions. And get paid massive money for doing so but they not always right and one party will find themselves on the losing side.
Sure you can get a paid "expert" to tell you anything

You can find a scientist to say that global warming is a hoax

You can find a doctor to say that there's no link between smoking and cancer

You can also find doctors advocating for full opening up of society in the face of a murderous pandemic

We live in the age of the personal brand, of the "marketplace of ideas"

Leo's lack of legal action would suggest he couldn't.

Franko

Quote from: johnnycool on March 16, 2021, 03:26:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:24:13 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on March 16, 2021, 03:15:34 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute

do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?

Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?

Cos he likes to paint himself as superior to SF? Cos MO'N wasn't the incoming Taoiseach? Cos she wasn't being investigated for corruption?
Varadkar is superior to SF

In terms of morals, ability, action, trustworthiness, accountability

That's not hard to be fair - so is my local drug dealer

Telling statement that one.

Indeed.

Crossed my mind a while back this.

Seen nothing in the interim to dissuade me of my original opinion.

Quite the opposite in fact.

Angelo

Quote from: Franko on March 16, 2021, 09:52:16 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 09:36:13 PM
Quote from: Louther on March 16, 2021, 09:21:17 PM
The point that senior counsel backs the village or says XYZ is mute and not a point to hang your hat on. You will find another senior counsel who will see it the opposite and likely another couple who will see it completely different again. It's what's they do, argue points of law and take different positions. And get paid massive money for doing so but they not always right and one party will find themselves on the losing side.
Sure you can get a paid "expert" to tell you anything

You can find a scientist to say that global warming is a hoax

You can find a doctor to say that there's no link between smoking and cancer

You can also find doctors advocating for full opening up of society in the face of a murderous pandemic

We live in the age of the personal brand, of the "marketplace of ideas"

Leo's lack of legal action would suggest he couldn't.

Village Magazine called his bluff.

FG are very quick to try and intimidate any dissenters with legal action.

Jennifer Carroll McBotox was at it last night on RTE with Matt Carthy.
GAA FUNDING CHEATS CHEAT US ALL

sid waddell

Quote from: Franko on March 16, 2021, 09:54:38 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 16, 2021, 03:26:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:24:13 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on March 16, 2021, 03:15:34 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute

do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?

Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?

Cos he likes to paint himself as superior to SF? Cos MO'N wasn't the incoming Taoiseach? Cos she wasn't being investigated for corruption?
Varadkar is superior to SF

In terms of morals, ability, action, trustworthiness, accountability

That's not hard to be fair - so is my local drug dealer

Telling statement that one.

Indeed.

Crossed my mind a while back this.

Seen nothing in the interim to dissuade me of my original opinion.

Quite the opposite in fact.
Go on

Expand on that

What exactly are you saying

It's fierce cowardly to imply things and not back it up

Spell it out

Franko

Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 09:58:33 PM
Quote from: Franko on March 16, 2021, 09:54:38 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 16, 2021, 03:26:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:24:13 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on March 16, 2021, 03:15:34 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute

do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?

Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?

Cos he likes to paint himself as superior to SF? Cos MO'N wasn't the incoming Taoiseach? Cos she wasn't being investigated for corruption?
Varadkar is superior to SF

In terms of morals, ability, action, trustworthiness, accountability

That's not hard to be fair - so is my local drug dealer

Telling statement that one.

Indeed.

Crossed my mind a while back this.

Seen nothing in the interim to dissuade me of my original opinion.

Quite the opposite in fact.
Go on

Expand on that

What exactly are you saying

It's fierce cowardly to imply things and not back it up

Spell it out

I've already done so a while back, not that clarification is required.

You actually replied to the post at the time.

Maybe you 'forgot'.

sid waddell

Quote from: Franko on March 16, 2021, 10:04:32 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 09:58:33 PM
Quote from: Franko on March 16, 2021, 09:54:38 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 16, 2021, 03:26:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:24:13 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on March 16, 2021, 03:15:34 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute

do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?

Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?

Cos he likes to paint himself as superior to SF? Cos MO'N wasn't the incoming Taoiseach? Cos she wasn't being investigated for corruption?
Varadkar is superior to SF

In terms of morals, ability, action, trustworthiness, accountability

That's not hard to be fair - so is my local drug dealer

Telling statement that one.

Indeed.

Crossed my mind a while back this.

Seen nothing in the interim to dissuade me of my original opinion.

Quite the opposite in fact.
Go on

Expand on that

What exactly are you saying

It's fierce cowardly to imply things and not back it up

Spell it out

I've already done so a while back, not that clarification is required.

You actually replied to the post at the time.

Maybe you 'forgot'.
You're avoiding the question

It seems you're implying that I'm addicted to illegal drugs - is this so?

Pretty poor form if so and really does sum up the calibre of person supporting SF here

Franko


sid waddell

Quote from: Franko on March 16, 2021, 10:24:01 PM
Well done Columbo
Just shows you up for what you are that your default reaction is to claim somebody disagrees with you is addicted to illegal drugs

You must lead a very sheltered life indeed given that entirely reasonable opinion offends you so much that you react in such a way






Baile Brigín 2

Quote from: weareros on March 16, 2021, 09:18:35 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 09:02:05 PM
Quote from: weareros on March 16, 2021, 08:57:56 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 16, 2021, 08:10:17 PM
Quote from: weareros on March 16, 2021, 07:01:03 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 06:38:02 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute

do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?

Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?

It wasnt addressed to you  but even so you tried to answer but couldn't get by the first line. Never mind.

My own opinion on this is when it goes to DPP, and if DPP thinks there is a case to answer, then he should step aside. But I think it's a bit extreme to ask a politician to step aside as Gardai investigate a complaint. Gardai can only investigate and send to DPP. They won't even be making a recommendation on whether charges need to be filed, just presenting the facts. The DPP will decide. Anyone who is following can see that there's no love lost between Tainiste and the gentleman who made the complaint. Likewise I think Village Magazine's reading of Official Secrets Act is flawed. I know Angelo disagrees. But this is the magazine that gave us Gemma O'Doherty, so I won't be taking their word as gospel either. The pols and commentators need to let Gardai investigate. I think what they will find is that he was within his rights to share. The pay contract was impacting all GPs, not just the GPs in the IMO Union. The IMO had already announced the package before he met the other Union President. His judgement was poor not to talk to Harris first. I think the bigger crime is why taxpayers money to a Union that was able to give their CEO a 9 million retirement package was an "Official Secret" in the first place, in particular when the pay was impacting all GPs. We'll see.

Village magazine's line is backed up by a senior counsel though.

I still have not been able to make sense of the solicitors argument. And I hate to point out that I think he was a SF candidate, because I don't want to be accused of the SF word. He seems to be saying that if official information worked on by a public official is confidential (eg the draft pay agreement), when it gets into the hands of a member of government (eg Leo), it remains confidential, and thus Leo is not exempt from OSA. That seems a good argument except for one fact - a public official is not authorised to share confidential information unless authorised by a Minister (eg Member of Govt) or State Authority (eg Attorney General); a Minister (ie a member of Government per Act), is authorised. So the official information is passing into the hands of someone who is not authorised, to the hands of someone who is authorised. The Village solicitor is making the claim that it carries its confidentiality as it passes hands from a public official to a Minister. Is that what he is saying? If so, I think it's interesting logic but flawed logic.

Surely you can't authorise yourself ?

It never explicitly states that a member of government needs authorisation from another member of government. Some earlier articles (including Village) jumped to the conclusion that a Minister was a Line Minister, and Simon Harris needed to provide authorisation. But the Act is clear that a Minister is a member of government. And a Minister can authorise. I think that alone clears Varadkar, even if what he did was not best practice and showed him to be a poor team player with questionable judgement and people leadership skills.

Its not absolute. He can't order people assassinated.

The Taoiseach's role does not include negotiating with doctors so your point is very moot

Franko

Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 10:33:00 PM
Quote from: Franko on March 16, 2021, 10:24:01 PM
Well done Columbo
Just shows you up for what you are that your default reaction is to claim somebody disagrees with you is addicted to drugs

You must lead a very sheltered life indeed given that entirely reasonable opinion offends you so much that you react in such a way

I've had this opinion of you since your disgraceful posting about Tony Keady's wife after his death.

There was no rational/logical reason why anyone would have sat and actually typed out the things you did - and then post them to a GAA forum.

The continued repetitive insanity, plus your latest little slip of the 'tongue' have only confirmed it.

So...

Given that you managed to solve that last little riddle, I'm sure you'll have worked out exactly how many 'Falks' I give about your broadsides

And to quote the great man...

go ahead...

post 'Just one more thing'.

sid waddell

Quote from: Franko on March 16, 2021, 10:56:52 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 10:33:00 PM
Quote from: Franko on March 16, 2021, 10:24:01 PM
Well done Columbo
Just shows you up for what you are that your default reaction is to claim somebody disagrees with you is addicted to drugs

You must lead a very sheltered life indeed given that entirely reasonable opinion offends you so much that you react in such a way

I've had this opinion of you since your disgraceful posting about Tony Keady's wife after his death.

There was no rational/logical reason why anyone would have sat and actually typed out the things you did - and then post them to a GAA forum.

The continued repetitive insanity, plus your latest little slip of the 'tongue' have only confirmed it.

So...

Given that you managed to solve that last little riddle, I'm sure you'll have worked out exactly how many 'Falks' I give about your broadsides

And to quote the great man...

go ahead...

post 'Just one more thing'.

That post says far more about you than it does it about me

Like a lot of SF propaganda shills, you're a bitter, angry little man - and your anger is pretty much never aimed in the right places

That post is a giveaway of serious underlying issues

I hope you get help with them

I genuinely mean that