A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

Started by winghalfback, May 27, 2015, 03:16:23 PM

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balladmaker

Quote from: weareros on May 02, 2021, 02:57:26 PM
Main thing I would take from Indo poll.
Those who want a border poll North & South are largest segments
It continues a trend of decline in pro-Union vote (at 44%) even if UI is still 9 points behind.
There is now an expectation of a UI North & South within a reasonable timeframe
It should light a fire up the Gov and Nationalist parties that they need to start singing the same tune on the economics and health, and start giving clarity.
The Indo is a bit of a dick for trying to make the narrative about two thirds majority required. How about asking the question: should a 33% or 25% minority get to decide for everyone else?

Fully agree.  Just because it is getting close does not mean the goal posts should move .... any vote on Irish reunification is 50% + 1 ... that's called democracy.

Snapchap

#3391
Such chat is ultimately futile. The GFA lays out the requirements for a border poll to pass. It's set in stone. The establishment can jump up and down all they like and arrogantly try to change the goalposts, but they can't succeed.

Dissidents have long argued that SF were conned by the GFA and that a border poll will never be allowed happen/pass. Consider for a second what message out sends out when the establishment is actively trying to change the goalposts to ensure a border poll wont pass. Wreckless stuff which to some people may add weight to what dissidents have been arguing about the GFA and which also serves to stoke up/legitimise any violent loyalist reaction to a border poll passing.

Rossfan

I see in the 6 Cos  28 % identify as Irish, 33% as British and 33% as "Northern Irish"
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Fear Bun Na Sceilpe

Quote from: Rossfan on May 03, 2021, 02:17:39 PM
I see in the 6 Cos  28 % identify as Irish, 33% as British and 33% as "Northern Irish"

A good clip around the back of the ear needed there

grounded

Quote from: balladmaker on May 03, 2021, 02:07:10 AM
Quote from: weareros on May 02, 2021, 02:57:26 PM
Main thing I would take from Indo poll.
Those who want a border poll North & South are largest segments
It continues a trend of decline in pro-Union vote (at 44%) even if UI is still 9 points behind.
There is now an expectation of a UI North & South within a reasonable timeframe
It should light a fire up the Gov and Nationalist parties that they need to start singing the same tune on the economics and health, and start giving clarity.
The Indo is a bit of a dick for trying to make the narrative about two thirds majority required. How about asking the question: should a 33% or 25% minority get to decide for everyone else?

Fully agree.  Just because it is getting close does not mean the goal posts should move .... any vote on Irish reunification is 50% + 1 ... that's called democracy.

Correct. More and more you will see this line  being put forward. I remember Seamus Mallon talking about this and obviously the usual suspects like John Bruton and the Indo group jumping on the band wagon.
      As you said its all in the GFA. 
The election in Scotland on Thursday will potentially have a lot more impact on a future  UI than a small poll commisioned by the Indo.
     

Tubberman

Good to see the the SDLP, and Matthew O'Toole in particular,  starting a reasoned conversation about what a United Ireland would look like. SF could learn from them, but they may not want to.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/belfast-agreement-not-a-postdated-cheque-for-irish-unity-1.4553658?mode=amp&__twitter_impression=true
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall."

weareros

If I read correctly there was a bit more of their poll which they stuck in today's paper - a majority of fans North and South were in favour of All-Ireland soccer team. In north it was 45% for and only 20% against. I guess a lot unknown. But the against number is quite low. I guess two shite teams on island will do that.

Applesisapples

Latest Lucid Polls in NI putting it 47/53 with don't knows excluded. 50% of U45's in favour. I guess on the face of it there is a direction of travel. I'd be with General Lee when it comes to SF. Whatever you think of the Indo though, few Northern Nationalists would want to see a UI that was going to cost them in the long run. The challenge as I keep pointing out is for those who want a poll now or in 5 years to demonstrate the impact financially. I do believe that in the long term it would be beneficial for all, but for those 55+ the long term is not a consideration. I also believe that given the right context and agreement both Britain and the EU would offer short to medium term funding if it would put to bed the Irish Question, that is another challenge for poll supporters.

tiempo

Quote from: Applesisapples on May 04, 2021, 02:58:20 PM
Latest Lucid Polls in NI putting it 47/53 with don't knows excluded. 50% of U45's in favour. I guess on the face of it there is a direction of travel. I'd be with General Lee when it comes to SF. Whatever you think of the Indo though, few Northern Nationalists would want to see a UI that was going to cost them in the long run. The challenge as I keep pointing out is for those who want a poll now or in 5 years to demonstrate the impact financially. I do believe that in the long term it would be beneficial for all, but for those 55+ the long term is not a consideration. I also believe that given the right context and agreement both Britain and the EU would offer short to medium term funding if it would put to bed the Irish Question, that is another challenge for poll supporters.

Have heard the Yanks mentioned in this context too

Angelo

Quote from: Tubberman on May 03, 2021, 07:16:09 PM
Good to see the the SDLP, and Matthew O'Toole in particular,  starting a reasoned conversation about what a United Ireland would look like. SF could learn from them, but they may not want to.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/belfast-agreement-not-a-postdated-cheque-for-irish-unity-1.4553658?mode=amp&__twitter_impression=true

FF and FG are the people who need to learn about starting a conversation about a UI.

But don't let the truth get in the way of a silly rant.
GAA FUNDING CHEATS CHEAT US ALL

GiveItToTheShooters

Quote from: Applesisapples on May 04, 2021, 02:58:20 PM
Latest Lucid Polls in NI putting it 47/53 with don't knows excluded. 50% of U45's in favour. I guess on the face of it there is a direction of travel. I'd be with General Lee when it comes to SF. Whatever you think of the Indo though, few Northern Nationalists would want to see a UI that was going to cost them in the long run. The challenge as I keep pointing out is for those who want a poll now or in 5 years to demonstrate the impact financially. I do believe that in the long term it would be beneficial for all, but for those 55+ the long term is not a consideration. I also believe that given the right context and agreement both Britain and the EU would offer short to medium term funding if it would put to bed the Irish Question, that is another challenge for poll supporters.
The old tight bastards who'll be dead within a generation or so and who value the queens pound over the reunification of their country shouldn't be able to ruin it for the rest of us.

Applesisapples

Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on May 04, 2021, 03:51:31 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on May 04, 2021, 02:58:20 PM
Latest Lucid Polls in NI putting it 47/53 with don't knows excluded. 50% of U45's in favour. I guess on the face of it there is a direction of travel. I'd be with General Lee when it comes to SF. Whatever you think of the Indo though, few Northern Nationalists would want to see a UI that was going to cost them in the long run. The challenge as I keep pointing out is for those who want a poll now or in 5 years to demonstrate the impact financially. I do believe that in the long term it would be beneficial for all, but for those 55+ the long term is not a consideration. I also believe that given the right context and agreement both Britain and the EU would offer short to medium term funding if it would put to bed the Irish Question, that is another challenge for poll supporters.
The old tight bastards who'll be dead within a generation or so and who value the queens pound over the reunification of their country shouldn't be able to ruin it for the rest of us.
That is a disgraceful comment unworthy of anyone who would call themselves a nationalist or republican. Would you rather they lived in cold, poverty and starved to death?

GiveItToTheShooters

Quote from: Applesisapples on May 04, 2021, 04:11:04 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on May 04, 2021, 03:51:31 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on May 04, 2021, 02:58:20 PM
Latest Lucid Polls in NI putting it 47/53 with don't knows excluded. 50% of U45's in favour. I guess on the face of it there is a direction of travel. I'd be with General Lee when it comes to SF. Whatever you think of the Indo though, few Northern Nationalists would want to see a UI that was going to cost them in the long run. The challenge as I keep pointing out is for those who want a poll now or in 5 years to demonstrate the impact financially. I do believe that in the long term it would be beneficial for all, but for those 55+ the long term is not a consideration. I also believe that given the right context and agreement both Britain and the EU would offer short to medium term funding if it would put to bed the Irish Question, that is another challenge for poll supporters.
The old tight bastards who'll be dead within a generation or so and who value the queens pound over the reunification of their country shouldn't be able to ruin it for the rest of us.
That is a disgraceful comment unworthy of anyone who would call themselves a nationalist or republican. Would you rather they lived in cold, poverty and starved to death?
No, but you're not a "nationalist" if you would vote no because you reckon it might cost you a few quid. You are one of those people.
But what IS a disgraceful comment, is comparing living in a UI with being "cold, living in poverty and starving to death".

Angelo

Anyone who votes against a UI is neither a nationalist or a republican.
GAA FUNDING CHEATS CHEAT US ALL

tiempo

Quote from: Applesisapples on May 04, 2021, 04:11:04 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on May 04, 2021, 03:51:31 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on May 04, 2021, 02:58:20 PM
Latest Lucid Polls in NI putting it 47/53 with don't knows excluded. 50% of U45's in favour. I guess on the face of it there is a direction of travel. I'd be with General Lee when it comes to SF. Whatever you think of the Indo though, few Northern Nationalists would want to see a UI that was going to cost them in the long run. The challenge as I keep pointing out is for those who want a poll now or in 5 years to demonstrate the impact financially. I do believe that in the long term it would be beneficial for all, but for those 55+ the long term is not a consideration. I also believe that given the right context and agreement both Britain and the EU would offer short to medium term funding if it would put to bed the Irish Question, that is another challenge for poll supporters.
The old tight bastards who'll be dead within a generation or so and who value the queens pound over the reunification of their country shouldn't be able to ruin it for the rest of us.
That is a disgraceful comment unworthy of anyone who would call themselves a nationalist or republican. Would you rather they lived in cold, poverty and starved to death?

The thing that strikes me, for all the criticism of SF, there's nothing anyone in SF has ever been accused of that the founding fathers in the Republic weren't also guilty of; and of the possible deterrents to a UI that the Brits haven't inflicted on us in spades for centuries. Anyone from a non-Unionist persuasion living in the north who would consider voting against a UI must be suffering textbook Stockholm syndrome.