Sean Penn Speaks Truth to Bush and His Criminal Admin

[muppet]

 Tyrone's Own you have ducked and dodged every poster that asked any simple or specific question. Your only defense of Bush is to say 'what would you have done' or to call people silly names. You don't even pretend to offer an intelligent defense of his actions.

in '03 when the whole world believed Saddam had WMD's

You fail to respond to any of your gaffs when they are pointed out but I'm going to stick with just this one. The only country in the world that believed the above is the one with the strictly controlled right-wing media. Even the British public never bought it. The British public however know how to do war, as the Irish know only too well. They don't see valid criticism of a crazy war as an attack on their own troops or even more idiotically as being unpatriotic. No constituency with the confidence or freedom to think for themselves would. Their support is a given, however they will rightly castigate a politician for leading them into an idiotic conflict.   

You will never see misguided Brits ( or any other country I can think of ) waving flags on the main streets of every hicksville with 'honk if you support our troops' banners.

  The right wing propaganda in the States meant it was occupational suicide for anyone to speak out against the war. That sort of intimidation does not happen in a free country. The Bush administration has sadly done so much damage to the reputation of the States around the world it might take decades to recover. People like yourself merely seek to increase the number of decades.

Whether or not I agree with Penn is irrelevant. It is just great to see that not all Americans blindly tow the Bush line and that more of them are finally speaking out.

[Tyrones own]

  "You don't even pretend to offer an intelligent defense of his actions."

Just exactly where in any of my posts did i make any attempt to defend Bush, he is a puppet just like the
last one and the next one!

"The only country in the world that believed the above is the one with the strictly controlled right-wing media"

Did you not take the time to read the link i left for you? "Strictly controlled right wing media". You're joking, right
Muppet it has to be painful for Yourself, Penn, Moore and the likes to carry around so much pent up hatred, in that global warming little world
that you live in,very sad actually
By the way, didn't you have anything to offer on the post put to you, obviously not!
Same old, Left wing good, right wing bad   Jaysus i get a great rise out of the tree huggers, you're some craic

[Star Spangler]

to have the yanks pull out and let Iraq implode by virture of the fact their security forces are not yet up to the task of defending all of the various factions within the Country

And the US IS up to the task?  Catch a grip!  The Americans being there has more to do with the problem than the solution.

[johnneycool]

to have the yanks pull out and let Iraq implode by virture of the fact their security forces are not yet up to the task of defending all of the various factions within the Country

And the US IS up to the task?  Catch a grip!  The Americans being there has more to do with the problem than the solution.

If the security forces are as sectarian as some reports would suggest then the only thing the coalition forces done was take out one group of maniac's and replace them with another plus train them and arm them to the teeth.

I suppose from Gee Dubya's point of view as long as they're pro American then it'll all be worth it for the oil of course.

[muppet]

  "You don't even pretend to offer an intelligent defense of his actions."

Just exactly where in any of my posts did i make any attempt to defend Bush, he is a puppet just like the
last one and the next one!

"The only country in the world that believed the above is the one with the strictly controlled right-wing media"

Did you not take the time to read the link i left for you? "Strictly controlled right wing media". You're joking, right
Muppet it has to be painful for Yourself, Penn, Moore and the likes to carry around so much pent up hatred, in that global warming little world
that you live in,very sad actually
By the way, didn't you have anything to offer on the post put to you, obviously not!
Same old, Left wing good, right wing bad   Jaysus i get a great rise out of the tree huggers, you're some craic

By attacking any criticism of Bush you could be seen to be defending him.

BTW the link, like your argument, doesn't work.

[Tyrones own]

Tyrone's Own you have ducked and dodged every poster that asked any simple or specific question. Your only defense of Bush is to say 'what would you have done' or to call people silly names. You don't even pretend to offer an intelligent defense of his actions.

in '03 when the whole world believed Saddam had WMD's

You fail to respond to any of your gaffs when they are pointed out but I'm going to stick with just this one. The only country in the world that believed the above is the one with the strictly controlled right-wing media. Even the British public never bought it. The British public however know how to do war, as the Irish know only too well. They don't see valid criticism of a crazy war as an attack on their own troops or even more idiotically as being unpatriotic. No constituency with the confidence or freedom to think for themselves would. Their support is a given, however they will rightly castigate a politician for leading them into an idiotic conflict.   

You will never see misguided Brits ( or any other country I can think of ) waving flags on the main streets of every hicksville with 'honk if you support our troops' banners.

 

The right wing propaganda in the States meant it was occupational suicide for anyone to speak out against the war.

That sort of intimidation does not happen in a free country. The Bush administration has sadly done so much damage to the reputation of the States around the world it might take decades to recover. People like yourself merely seek to increase the number of decades.

Whether or not I agree with Penn is irrelevant. It is just great to see that not all Americans blindly tow the Bush line and that more of them are finally speaking out.

1) Does the name Cindy Sheehan mean anything to you in relation to "occupational suicide to speak out against the war" tell me who in your opinion was pushing that agenda?

2) With regards to "the only country that believed Saddam had wmd's was the one strictly controlled by the right wing media" my answer to that ludicrous statement was in the link that i posted
and surprise surprise, it was removed but let me explain what it was: Headline Quote "Rupert Murdock under investigation for the removal of any Negative reporting of Both Bill Clinton and his wife Hillary before going to press" I would love your thought on that one after all the past rants you've had about exactly where Mr Murdock stands morally and politically?

3) "The British Public know how to do war" Now you've really out done yourself with that statement, That really is the most idiotic thing that i have personally read in my life.
The British Crown forces, not the Public, Fought the IRA for 35 years and could do nothing with them you Blinkered leftist gobshite.

4)The only reason that you see true patriot's out waving flags in support of freedom in this country is to boil the shite in soft bellied liberals like yourself, its obviously working
   regardless of who is commander and chief you'll find these people will always fight and show support for the freedom of this country, which of course is where the main fundamental
   difference lies between these people and the liberal left. Lets be everybody's friend and show our love and peace for one another, when are you people going to remove the blinkers
  for once and realize that what and who we're fighting, be it here or over there, don't want to be friends with me or you, the flower power of the sixties no longer exist!

5) The political correctness is what is truly going to see us off, Bush has our Men and Women fighting these extremists with their hands tied behind their backs for fear of offending someone!
    If that's how it's to be then bring the home and lock down our borders. If anyone doesn't like it then be on the next plane back to whichever great country in which you fled
    in the first place!!!
   


                                     

[stew]

Tyrone's Own you have ducked and dodged every poster that asked any simple or specific question. Your only defense of Bush is to say 'what would you have done' or to call people silly names. You don't even pretend to offer an intelligent defense of his actions.

in '03 when the whole world believed Saddam had WMD's

You fail to respond to any of your gaffs when they are pointed out but I'm going to stick with just this one. The only country in the world that believed the above is the one with the strictly controlled right-wing media. Even the British public never bought it. The British public however know how to do war, as the Irish know only too well. They don't see valid criticism of a crazy war as an attack on their own troops or even more idiotically as being unpatriotic. No constituency with the confidence or freedom to think for themselves would. Their support is a given, however they will rightly castigate a politician for leading them into an idiotic conflict.   

You will never see misguided Brits ( or any other country I can think of ) waving flags on the main streets of every hicksville with 'honk if you support our troops' banners.

 

The right wing propaganda in the States meant it was occupational suicide for anyone to speak out against the war.

That sort of intimidation does not happen in a free country. The Bush administration has sadly done so much damage to the reputation of the States around the world it might take decades to recover. People like yourself merely seek to increase the number of decades.

Whether or not I agree with Penn is irrelevant. It is just great to see that not all Americans blindly tow the Bush line and that more of them are finally speaking out.

1) Does the name Cindy Sheehan mean anything to you in relation to "occupational suicide to speak out against the war" tell me who in your opinion was pushing that agenda?

2) With regards to "the only country that believed Saddam had wmd's was the one strictly controlled by the right wing media" my answer to that ludicrous statement was in the link that i posted
and surprise surprise, it was removed but let me explain what it was: Headline Quote "Rupert Murdock under investigation for the removal of any Negative reporting of Both Bill Clinton and his wife Hillary before going to press" I would love your thought on that one after all the past rants you've had about exactly where Mr Murdock stands morally and politically?

3) "The British Public know how to do war" Now you've really out done yourself with that statement, That really is the most idiotic thing that i have personally read in my life.
The British Crown forces, not the Public, Fought the IRA for 35 years and could do nothing with them you Blinkered leftist gobshite.

4)The only reason that you see true patriot's out waving flags in support of freedom in this country is to boil the shite in soft bellied liberals like yourself, its obviously working
   regardless of who is commander and chief you'll find these people will always fight and show support for the freedom of this country, which of course is where the main fundamental
   difference lies between these people and the liberal left. Lets be everybody's friend and show our love and peace for one another, when are you people going to remove the blinkers
  for once and realize that what and who we're fighting, be it here or over there, don't want to be friends with me or you, the flower power of the sixties no longer exist!

5) The political correctness is what is truly going to see us off, Bush has our Men and Women fighting these extremists with their hands tied behind their backs for fear of offending someone!
    If that's how it's to be then bring the home and lock down our borders. If anyone doesn't like it then be on the next plane back to whichever great country in which you fled
    in the first place!!!
   


                                     

Cindy was quite happy to have her son take advantage of all the educational benefits that American servicemen and women ca take advantage of, until he was killed and then she became a zealot against the war, where was she before her son died??? I know that is horrific but i live close to other parents who have lost their sons and they are dignified in their loss and they support their army and you dont see them seeking publicity after their loved ones died.

Americans seem incapable of learning from history, they are mired in another vietnam and their politicians are going to feck it up again and history will judge them harshly and find them wanting.

[muppet]

1) Does the name Cindy Sheehan mean anything to you in relation to "occupational suicide to speak out against the war" tell me who in your opinion was pushing that agenda?

Never heard of her.

2) With regards to "the only country that believed Saddam had wmd's was the one strictly controlled by the right wing media" my answer to that ludicrous statement was in the link that i posted
and surprise surprise, it was removed but let me explain what it was: Headline Quote "Rupert Murdock under investigation for the removal of any Negative reporting of Both Bill Clinton and his wife Hillary before going to press" I would love your thought on that one after all the past rants you've had about exactly where Mr Murdock stands morally and politically?

Your answer to the statment that the US was the only country that believed Saddam had WMD is that Murdock likes the Clintons! Hans Blix told the world that he had found no WMDs and only one country belittled his and the UN's position. The US media backed up their leader and nearly everyone else declared their misguided patriotism. It didn't take history long to show that they were utterly wrong. 

3) "The British Public  know how to do war" Now you've really out done yourself with that statement, That really is the most idiotic thing that i have personally read in my life.
The British Crown forces, not the Public, Fought the IRA for 35 years and could do nothing with them you Blinkered leftist gobshite.

I was refering to the publics behavior when their country is at war. There is no need to artificially generate public support for their troops. You don't have government bans on media coverage of casualties like you get in the States. Your second statement is completely irrelevent and BTW I am a confirmed capitalist not that you would ever bother asking.

4)The only reason that you see true patriot's out waving flags in support of freedom in this country is to boil the shite in soft bellied liberals like yourself, its obviously working
   regardless of who is commander and chief you'll find these people will always fight and show support for the freedom of this country, which of course is where the main fundamental
   difference lies between these people and the liberal left. Lets be everybody's friend and show our love and peace for one another, when are you people going to remove the blinkers
  for once and realize that what and who we're fighting, be it here or over there, don't want to be friends with me or you, the flower power of the sixties no longer exist!

This paragraph says it all. Can you actually think for yourself or do you speak Fox news all the time.

5) The political correctness is what is truly going to see us off, Bush has our Men and Women fighting these extremists with their hands tied behind their backs for fear of offending someone!
    If that's how it's to be then bring the home and lock down our borders. If anyone doesn't like it then be on the next plane back to whichever great country in which you fled
    in the first place!!!

Bush has created more extremists than Bin Laden ever could. The entire world knows that Iraq was no threat whatsoever to the US. Headbangers like yourself who prefer to kill thousands first and shot anyone who asks questions later will never learn that people you try to destroy will always strike back. Just like the IRA you mentioned above. Any occupying force will face attacks on their homeland eventually.

[Tyrones own]

1) Of course you Haven't, that suits

2) Part of a transcript from CNN of all networks back in '05:
                                                                                                  "At any point along the way, Saddam Hussein could have avoided war by complying with the just demands of the international community. The United States did not choose war. The choice was Saddam Hussein's.
When we made the decision to go into Iraq, many intelligence agencies around the world judged that Saddam possessed weapons of mass destruction. This judgment was shared by the intelligence agencies of governments who did not support our decision to remove Saddam. And it is true that much of the intelligence turned out to be wrong."
So obviously you're answer to #2  is only your left leaning opinion and im sure you know what they say about opinions

3)
Is this not a free country, are these people not entitled to show their support in any way they see fit without being judged
and insulted by the leftists comments like "artificial". I don't think Artificial comes into it when your talking about true Americans out showing and supporting their beliefs
And BTW, you've some head about yourself, i personally don't give a damn what you are

4) Another cop out just like #1, No doubt one of us needs to start to think for ourselves sorry Mr. Penn

5) This view presumes that if we were not in Iraq the terrorists would be leaving us alone. The reality is that the terrorists have been targeting America for years, long before we ever set foot in Iraq and may i bring it to your attention, Before Bush took office I am well aware that people such as yourself would love to impose the belief that our country's history began in the year 2000

We were not in Iraq in 1993 when the terrorists tried to blow up the World Trade Center in New York. We were not in Iraq in 1998 when the terrorists bombed our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. We were not in Iraq in 2000 when the terrorists killed 17 American sailors aboard the USS Cole. And there wasn't a single American soldier in Iraq on September 11, 2001, when the terrorists murdered nearly 3,000 people in the worst attack on our home since Pearl Harbor. But here let me lift the rug so you can commence to sweeping
So to close, i feel it was only a matter of time till he would have been a huge threat to US security!

[Declan]

US anti-war mother ends protest
Cindy Sheehan in Amsterdam - 20/05/2007
Cindy Sheehan's son died fighting in Baghdad in 2004
Cindy Sheehan, the bereaved mother who became a figurehead for the US anti-war movement, is abandoning her fight after growing disenchanted with the campaign.

She has camped outside President Bush's ranch since 2005, demanding a meeting over the death of her son in Iraq.

But announcing the end of her campaign, she also hit out at Democrats and anti-war campaigners who put "personal egos above peace and human life".

She said she had sacrificed her health, her marriage and her finances.

In a letter on the Daily Kos website titled Good Riddance Attention Whore - a reference to the abuse she says she has suffered, Ms Sheehan said: "I am going to take whatever I have left and go home.

"I am going to go home and be a mother to my surviving children and try to regain some of what I have lost."

'War machine'

Cindy Sheehan became a "postergirl" for the US anti-war movement after she set up her protest camp outside the president's ranch in Crawford, Texas in August 2005.

She said she has spent all the money from the survivor's benefits paid for her son's death and everything she earned from speaking and book fees and that she owed large hospital bills.

"I have been called every despicable name that small minds can think of and have had my life threatened many times."

She said her son Casey, who died in Baghdad in April 2004, was "killed by his own country which is beholden to and run by a war machine that even controls what we think.

   
Casey died for a country which cares more about who will be the next American Idol
Cindy Sheehan

"Casey died for a country which cares more about who will be the next American Idol than how many people will be killed in the next few months while Democrats and Republicans play politics with human lives.

"It is so painful to me to know that I bought into this system for so many years and Casey paid the price for that allegiance. I failed my boy and that hurts the most."

Ms Sheehan criticised the US anti-war movement for often putting "personal egos" first.

"It is hard to work for peace when the very movement that is named after it has so many divisions."

She said that one-time allies among the Democratic Party had turned on her when she no longer limited her protests over the Iraq war to the Republican Party.

The US will rapidly descend into "a fascist corporate wasteland," she said, if "alternatives to this corrupt 'two' party system" are not found.

Ms Sheehan said she was resigning as the "face" of the US anti-war movement.

She said she would "never give up trying to help people in the world who are harmed by the empire of the good old US of A, but I am finished working in, or outside of this system."

[Seamus]

It's a shame that it took the death of her son in an illegal war to wake her up. Now she has come to understand that both the criminal Democrats and Neocons are in bed together. 
My prayers will always be with Cindy Sheehan.

Nancy Pelosi and Co did their expected u turn regarding the time table for troop withdrawal. The first actions she should have taken when gaining control of the house was to repeal the draconian Patriot Acts and 2006 Military Commissions Act along with the indictments or impeachments of Bush, Chaney. Rumsfeld etc. She has now proven that she along with the Democrats are taking orders from the same corrupt cartel as their friends in the Republican Party, something that is very obvious with a long long time. Of course it is not obvious nor ever will be to the FOX and CNN addicts.

[Tyrones own]

US anti-war mother ends protest
Cindy Sheehan in Amsterdam - 20/05/2007
Cindy Sheehan's son died fighting in Baghdad in 2004
Cindy Sheehan, the bereaved mother who became a figurehead for the US anti-war movement, is abandoning her fight after growing disenchanted with the campaign.

She has camped outside President Bush's ranch since 2005, demanding a meeting over the death of her son in Iraq.

But announcing the end of her campaign, she also hit out at Democrats and anti-war campaigners who put "personal egos above peace and human life".

She said she had sacrificed her health, her marriage and her finances.

In a letter on the Daily Kos website titled Good Riddance Attention Whore - a reference to the abuse she says she has suffered, Ms Sheehan said: "I am going to take whatever I have left and go home.

"I am going to go home and be a mother to my surviving children and try to regain some of what I have lost."

'War machine'

Cindy Sheehan became a "postergirl" for the US anti-war movement after she set up her protest camp outside the president's ranch in Crawford, Texas in August 2005.

She said she has spent all the money from the survivor's benefits paid for her son's death and everything she earned from speaking and book fees and that she owed large hospital bills.

"I have been called every despicable name that small minds can think of and have had my life threatened many times."

She said her son Casey, who died in Baghdad in April 2004, was "killed by his own country which is beholden to and run by a war machine that even controls what we think.

   
Casey died for a country which cares more about who will be the next American Idol
Cindy Sheehan

"Casey died for a country which cares more about who will be the next American Idol than how many people will be killed in the next few months while Democrats and Republicans play politics with human lives.

"It is so painful to me to know that I bought into this system for so many years and Casey paid the price for that allegiance. I failed my boy and that hurts the most."

Ms Sheehan criticised the US anti-war movement for often putting "personal egos" first.

"It is hard to work for peace when the very movement that is named after it has so many divisions."

She said that one-time allies among the Democratic Party had turned on her when she no longer limited her protests over the Iraq war to the Republican Party.

The US will rapidly descend into "a fascist corporate wasteland," she said, if "alternatives to this corrupt 'two' party system" are not found.

Ms Sheehan said she was resigning as the "face" of the US anti-war movement.

She said she would "never give up trying to help people in the world who are harmed by the empire of the good old US of A, but I am finished working in, or outside of this system."

That line says it all right there Seamus, it was a point i had made at the start of this thread but of course was shot down with nonsensical rhetoric

[muppet]

 This thread is  bit like trying to explain to Trigger that Rodney's name is not Dave.

Tyrone's Own will just reply with the usual American anti-left, anti-democrat nonsense.

To back his argument he has used lots of pro-Republican propaganda.

1. I don't live in the States so I haven't heard of Cindy Sheehan. It is not convienient to my argument as from other posters it appears that by speaking out she has suffered enourmously.

2. I'm going to labour this point to highlight Tyrone's Own serious problem with fact and propaganda and also his inability to follow either an argument or logic.

2) With regards to "the only country that believed Saddam had wmd's was the one strictly controlled by the right wing media" my answer to that ludicrous statement was in the link that i posted
and surprise surprise, it was removed but let me explain what it was: Headline Quote "Rupert Murdock under investigation for the removal of any Negative reporting of Both Bill Clinton and his wife Hillary before going to press" I would love your thought on that one after all the past rants you've had about exactly where Mr Murdock stands morally and politically?

The charge was that only one country believed Saddam had WMDs. The rebuttal was that Murdock was under investigation for preferential reporting of the Clintons. If this is considered logical I will now follow that logic and point out that Pluto is not really a planet. This debate continued with the reply:

2) Part of a transcript from CNN of all networks back in '05:
                                                                                                  "At any point along the way, Saddam Hussein could have avoided war by complying with the just demands of the international community. The United States did not choose war. The choice was Saddam Hussein's.
When we made the decision to go into Iraq, many intelligence agencies around the world judged that Saddam possessed weapons of mass destruction. This judgment was shared by the intelligence agencies of governments who did not support our decision to remove Saddam. And it is true that much of the intelligence turned out to be wrong."
So obviously you're answer to #2  is only your left leaning opinion and im sure you know what they say about opinions

It was the US who chose to go to war. Quoting a US news network as some sort of unquestionable source show how far you have missed the point. By 'Many intelligence agenices' of course you mean the CIA and Mossad. Read Fiasco and you will see that the CIA did not ever say Saddam had WMDs. In fact no one in the CIA had even met the informant on whose information the decision to go to war was based. Colin Powell was wheeled out as the only credible member of Bush's cabinet to convince the world that war was necessary. He has since admitted misleading the world and describes it as the low point in his life.

You are attempting to rewrite history and are failing misreably. When that becomes obvious you fire out typical anti-left insults.

3.

Is this not a free country, are these people not entitled to show their support in any way they see fit without being judged
and insulted by the leftists comments like "artificial". I don't think Artificial comes into it when your talking about true Americans out showing and supporting their beliefs
And BTW, you've some head about yourself, i personally don't give a damn what you are

Have you heard of the Patriot Act? Try taking a trip to Cuba and you will see just how free your country actually is. In early 2003 Rupert Murdock had 70 odd US publications. The editor of each was surveyed and asked did they support going to war with Iraq. All of them said yes. So much for freedom of the press.
 
4.

The only reason that you see true patriot's out waving flags in support of freedom in this country is to boil the shite in soft bellied liberals like yourself,

5.

5) This view presumes that if we were not in Iraq the terrorists would be leaving us alone. The reality is that the terrorists have been targeting America for years, long before we ever set foot in Iraq and may i bring it to your attention, Before Bush took office  I am well aware that people such as yourself would love to impose the belief that our country's history began in the year 2000

We were not in Iraq in 1993 when the terrorists tried to blow up the World Trade Center in New York. We were not in Iraq in 1998 when the terrorists bombed our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. We were not in Iraq in 2000 when the terrorists killed 17 American sailors aboard the USS Cole. And there wasn't a single American soldier in Iraq on September 11, 2001, when the terrorists murdered nearly 3,000 people in the worst attack on our home since Pearl Harbor. But here let me lift the rug so you can commence to sweeping
So to close, i feel it was only a matter of time till he would have been a huge threat to US security!

Eh did I miss something or was there really a Gulf war in 1991? That of course is another story. 

So to close, i feel it was only a matter of time till he would have been a huge threat to US security!

Saddam had no terrorist network. The furthest his hopelessly outdated missiles could travel was Israel and the US had demonstrated they could be easily countered with Patriot missles. The threat to US soil was about as real as Waterford attacking Donegal by launching sliothars from The Nire.

No doubt you will respond by calling me a liberal pinko or something but get this. The Democrats have disgraced themselves throughout this farce. How many of them were brave enough to stand up and vote against invading Iraq in 2003? None of Murdock's editors covered themselves in glory either. In my view they are just as bad as they failed to articulate any alternative action to the Government's and therefore failed democracy and ultimately the world.

Every single day in Iraq there is a tragedy as bad if not worse than the Omagh bomb ( in terms of human loss ). Every single day.

[Declan]

Muppet - You're wasting your time here. There is none so blind as those who don't want to see.

Sacrifice, Pain, and Grief
by James Carroll

This article was published on Monday, May 29 - Memorial Day, 2007:

The nation pays its respects today to those who have fallen in America's wars. The central ritual of our communal bereavement takes place with a wreath-laying ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknowns in Arlington , Va. Because those remains are anonymous, they are fitting representatives of the entire legion of war dead, who are the focus of affection on Memorial Day.When we send men and women off to battle for the sake of the nation's greater good, we promise that, should they not return, their sacrifice will always be remembered. It is the minimum such heroes are due. But because the nation is at war today, the observance has special poignancy, and added pain. Like numerous graves at Arlington, the grief of all too many families is fresh. Given the kind of war this is, however, the mourning is for more than departed individuals.

Is it presumptuous to imagine we can know something about those whose lives were lost, perhaps even the "unknowns"? The military women and men who have been killed in war wanted more from life than they got. They began by believing in a higher cause, but ended up, from every frontline report, caring most about the buddies to their right and left. They saw the horrors of combat, but what really frightened them was the threat of moral collapse as feelings of anger, fear, and, perhaps, revenge replaced the stately cohesion of the drill.

Trained in glory, they died in absurdity. On Memorial Day, can we pay tribute to the dead without falsifying what befell them?

"If at the end of a war story you feel uplifted," the Vietnam novelist Tim O'Brien wrote, "or if you feel that some small bit of rectitude has been salvaged from the larger waste, then you have been made the victim of a very old and terrible lie." O'Brien says that the hallmarks of truth, when it comes to war stories, are obscenity and evil. "You can tell a true war story if it embarrasses you."

Such dark notes are struck by the chroniclers of every war, going back to Homer, but they seem especially apt when those being mourned have fallen in a war that, even before its end, has already shown itself to have been mistaken from its first trumpet.

That recognition compounds American grief on this Memorial Day. In addition to the bright faced young men and women for whom taps has sounded, "a secure sense of the goodness of the social order is irretrievably lost and must be mourned." The psychiatrist Jonathan Shay, treating veterans, wrote that in response to Vietnam, but the observation applies equally to Iraq.

Even the most diehard of American commanders and politicians show signs of recognizing the strategic and (therefore) moral futility of the war in Iraq, which is why they are tangled in the impossible snares of what-to-do-now. The nation, meanwhile, has a larger problem, which is only apparently less pressing: How to reckon with the strategic and moral damage the United States has done and is still doing to the shared well-being of the human family?

In addition to the lives it has needlessly destroyed, the war has helped ignite the most volatile region on earth; it has polluted US relations with former allies; and it has resuscitated the armed suspicions of former enemies. What of more value has been lost than the golden opportunity at the end of the Cold War to further empty nuclear arsenals, to midwife international structures of law, to heal the planet's poisoned environment, to address the global crisis of southern poverty?

Memorial Day is a time of social grief. We deliberately call to mind the names and faces of the dead. We attend to their selfless patriotism, and the courage with which they conducted themselves. We insist that, no matter how misbegotten the cause in which they died, they did not die in vain.

In the glorious past, that faith depended on carrying wars forward to the point of victory, which alone redeemed the mortal loss. But now, we eulogize the heroes without approving the war that killed them. Because today's national desolation must include a larger grief for lost American virtue, the determination that the fallen not have died in vain requires that their sacrifice be taken as a fuller opening to the truths both of what our leaders have wrought, and of the responsibility that belongs to us all.

The proper memorial to the war in Iraq is its immediate end.

[muppet]

Even the most diehard of American commanders and politicians show signs of recognizing the strategic and (therefore) moral futility of the war in Iraq

Declan read Fiasco by Thomas E. Ricks. Most of the commanders were against starting the war or more particularly the lack of:
1. An objective ( getting rid of Saddam was enough foresight for Bush but not for military planners )
2. A strategy ( not merely how to beat Saddam but how to win the war )
3. An exit strategy

It clearly lays the blame at the feet of politicians and while some aspects of the military made big errors at least they continuously assess themselves searching for improvements. My faith in the US was restored to a large extent by reading Ricks interviews with the various powers in the Pentagon.