Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball

[APM]

It's a number of things:
Not as good to watch
The blanket means that as a spectacle the game isn't as good.  I don't care what anyone says, but this business of passing the ball around in an arc around the 50 is not as good to watch as quick ball into a the full forward line, with guys like Mickey Linden, Marsden, Canavan and McDonnell out in front of their marker and taking on their men.  We just don't see as much of this in today's game as 2001.

Perception and negativity
Why would I be bothered going to games if the so-called experts keep telling me that the product is rubbish.  Notwithstanding what I have said above, I still get a kick out of watching football and we still have some fantastic games, but when the very pundits that you would expect to be promoting the game on TV are saying that every game is shite, it's little wonder attendances are falling.  The amount of negativity surrounding the games is at an all time high and it is now in vogue at all levels, from pundits down to club level, to criticise county football. 

Hammerings
In 2001 there were some hammerings, but I don't think there were so many as there are now.  Leinster was competitive.  Ulster, despite the fact that two teams dominated from 1999 to 2010, was still competitive.  Dublin matches now literally aren't worth watching until they reach the Semi-Final or Final.  They are playing at a professional level.   

Over Exposure
I remember thinking that with so many games televised and so much coverage back around 04, that supporters would lap it up for a while, but that eventually people would take it for granted and less would do them. Take the first Ulster Final that went to HQ in 2004.  There was 60,000 there.  Only 30,000 for the Ulster Final Replay in '05.  The qualifier effect was alive and well, with Sligo, Fermanagh, Limerick, Derry, Donegal getting good runs.  There were loads of novel pairings - I remember Sligo and Kildare I think attracting a great crowd on a Saturday night around '04.

Half Empty Stadiums
There is rarely a decent atmosphere in a half-full Croke Park.  It looks terrible on TV and exacerbates the notion that we have a poor product.  I cannot understand organisers taking smallish games to big stadiums.  Better to have a small ground filled to capacity, because the atmosphere is all part of the product.

I posted this before. As far as I'm concerned it sums up exactly what happened with the Super 8s at the weekend. And the big concern for the GAA is that most of these issues are like a viscous circle:

Weaker team gets hammered - plays more defensively (Fermanagh, Carlow)
Weaker team plays blanket to compete
Game is boring, hard to watch for neutrals in particular
People stop watching
Pundits complain about quality
More and more people agree - fewer people attend
Stadiums half empty - atmosphere is crap
Pundits complain about lack of intensity
Those that do attend, question what's the point, game is on TV, I'll see the next game


Can't understand why people bury their head in the sand and can't see this, just because their own county has reached the latter end of the championship and they see any change as a risk to their chance of success, whenever the entire product is at risk. 

The GAA's answer is to have more games with fewer people at each game - its crazy!

[thewobbler]

Top class post APM.

More games with fewer people at them is the ultimate tell tale sign that we are in a cycle of descent.

To be honest I'm flabbergasted that so many people on this thread are determined that lesser talented  teams who don't expose themselves to be ritually slaughtered by stronger teams, are the nub of the problem.

——

Trailer, soccer might be a different game but it faced a very similar problem whereby a team in front could kill the clock by continually booting the ball back to a safe area and take a minute or two off the remaining time.

Teams will always find ways to kill the clock to some extent, but when the rules of the game permit outrageous timekilling, it destroys sport as a spectacle.

Donegal could have stepped 6 men forward with 15 minutes to go on Saturday, but they'd have been absolutely destroyed for fitness, as they would have been chasing a ball moving side to side, back to front, side to side for that entire period.

[trailer]

Top class post APM.

More games with fewer people at them is the ultimate tell tale sign that we are in a cycle of descent.

To be honest I'm flabbergasted that so many people on this thread are determined that lesser talented  teams who don't expose themselves to be ritually slaughtered by stronger teams, are the nub of the problem.

——

Trailer, soccer might be a different game but it faced a very similar problem whereby a team in front could kill the clock by continually booting the ball back to a safe area and take a minute or two off the remaining time.

Teams will always find ways to kill the clock to some extent, but when the rules of the game permit outrageous timekilling, it destroys sport as a spectacle.

Donegal could have stepped 6 men forward with 15 minutes to go on Saturday, but they'd have been absolutely destroyed for fitness, as they would have been chasing a ball moving side to side, back to front, side to side for that entire period.

No problem. Let's change all the rules.
If a team in Div 4 scores a goal it should count for 6 points against a Div 1,2,3 side. If its a point it counts for 3
Div 3 against Div 1 or 2 Goal = 5 points. Point = 2
Div 2 against Div 1 Goal = 4 points. Point = 1.5 points

Sorry if this sounds mental but this is what you are looking to do. Change rules because some teams are better than others. If you understand football you will understand how valuable possession is. It's is crucial. For years teams weren't punished for kicking it away. Now if you kick the ball away or are turned over you are punished and it's very difficult to get the ball back from a top team. To me that is a skill on it's own. Some people want a return to the catch and kick muck of the 70's. When you understand the game and understand why Dublin hold the ball, you then understand the skill in it. It is not easy to do.

Monaghan have one of the smallest picks, yet they get the best out of what they have. Cork have a huge pick and they are muck. But it's all Croke Park's fault. And the rules. And Money. It's definitely not the Counties fault because that would mean looking inside the circle and having to solve the problem. It's easier to moan and complain.   

[Itchy]

I think there are some simple changes that should be looked at. For example I do like the idea that you should not be able to play the ball backwards into your own half when you cross the half way line. However, even better is that you must at all times have 3 players in the opposition half of the field - i think that would be the game changer. In fact I think these players should be nominated and have to wear an arm band or something so it is easy for the ref to see them.

[cjx]

Fear of change fear of rule change is a mistake I think. If you want people engaged and playing a game you must keep up with tactics and trends by making the game attractive and that mean rules to assist this (as in NFL and basketball in USA and rugby).

On reflection a shot clock (1 minute) might work best (the crowd could join in the countdown more craic more pressure on the keep ballers).

But on a big pitch with up to 30 players what constitutes a shot? Perhaps a score, wide, line ball (conceded) or kick going in the opponents large rectangle (more precise than parallelogram). Whatever it must work at adult club level as well (Club being key to everything not ancient English defined Counties). It could only apply in 2nd half.

Penalty a free at point on field ball was when shot clock stopped  (more encouragement for keep ballers to move forward).

Worth reading O'Rourke's excellent analysis of Tyrone's set up on RTE.IE site and thinking on how that set up impacts on all this. Let's see what happens if Dubs go 5 points up in first quarter against Throne on Saturday. (plans B and C required)

And be certain this is not about Dublin its about preserving and expanding Gaelic Football; its reach, appeal and value to us all.

[thewobbler]

Wobbler, you really propose that we should be making it easier for teams who don't have the balls (or ability) to come out of their own half to get the ball back by forcing the opposing team to bring the ball to them?
That's pathetic. The onus should not be on the winning team to bring the ball to the losing team, it should be on the losing team to go and get it.

No that's not what I'm proposing.

What I'd like to see is that it's more difficult for a winning team to kill the game.

You might call that "pathetic".

But soccer took drastic steps to prevent this, in the form of removing the backpass and limiting goalkeepers to 5 seconds with the ball.

Basketball took drastic steps in the form of not being able to back past the halfway line, then the shot clock.

NFL has downs and a shotclock to ensure teams advance.

Rugby league's fifth tackle rule ensures regular turnovers.

Rugby union has an inbuilt mechanism to devalue clock killing throigh the danger of penalty kicks conceded in your own half.

Aussie Rules doesn't need so much of a precaution, as the penalty for being caught in possession close to goals is so severe.

All of these are constructs, rules, which have been designed to keep the play moving. All of the above also tweak their rules on a default basis to react to coaches exploiting weaknesses in their rules.

It's called common sense. Expecting that sporting rules should remain untouched over time goes against the concept of human evolution.

And while you do get shite games in every code in every sport, none of these suffers from the malaise, apathy, and downright disenchantment  which is sweeping through Gaelic football.


Pathetic? I do wonder.

[J70]

Serious over reaction here. It's not as if what Dublin did happens all the time. I remember Meath doing it to Kerry in the 2001 AI semi (with 15 mins left) to shouts of "ole", then Galway returning the favour in that year's final. I remember Donegal doing it in the 2012 semi to Cork, although Cork managed to finally close down David Walsh, turn it over and score a goal. Kerry did it to us in the 2014 final. But it's not a common feature of intercounty football and definitely not something warranting knee jerk rule changes.

Nope, that's not what happened.
In both cases, you had a team that was completely out of sight on the scoreboard and were so dominant that the other side couldn't get the ball back.
I'd wager if you looked at the number of scores in the last 10 minutes of either of those games, vs. the number of scores in the last 10 minutes of the game at the weekend, the difference would be clearly illustrated.

Technically you may be correct in that Dublin were focused purely on keeping the ball, but the hand passes and the "oles" were absolutely part of it, especially in that Meath-Kerry semi-final.

Darren Fay had some regrets about the day, interestingly:

http://www.the42.ie/meath-darren-fay-four-kings-1176933-Dec2013/?amp=1

[thewobbler]

And by the way Trailer, stop being a smug p***k about understanding the game.

If I was in Dublin's shoes I'd do exactly the same thing. It makes complete sense within the current rules to maximise your periods of possession when winning.

But, and f**k me i'm sick of trying to get this message across, so please listen. This style of football has been seen many times before. But when the best individual and collective team in the country advocate this method of play for an entire quarter of a match, as a tactic it will spread like wildfire throughout our game. It requires skill to apply, but only a fraction of the skill required to open up anoacked defence. So every wannabe coach in the country will now add it to their "armoury", and instead of us having to endure a couple of minutes of keep ball per match, we will now see default matches comprising almost entirely of keepball.

Football was in a shit place. But on Saturday afternoon it nosedived further.

A rule change isn't an option anymore. It's a necessity.

[Mayo4Sam14]

Wobbler, you really propose that we should be making it easier for teams who don't have the balls (or ability) to come out of their own half to get the ball back by forcing the opposing team to bring the ball to them?
That's pathetic. The onus should not be on the winning team to bring the ball to the losing team, it should be on the losing team to go and get it.

No that's not what I'm proposing.

What I'd like to see is that it's more difficult for a winning team to kill the game.

You might call that "pathetic".

But soccer took drastic steps to prevent this, in the form of removing the backpass and limiting goalkeepers to 5 seconds with the ball.

Basketball took drastic steps in the form of not being able to back past the halfway line, then the shot clock.

NFL has downs and a shotclock to ensure teams advance.

Rugby league's fifth tackle rule ensures regular turnovers.

Rugby union has an inbuilt mechanism to devalue clock killing throigh the danger of penalty kicks conceded in your own half.

Aussie Rules doesn't need so much of a precaution, as the penalty for being caught in possession close to goals is so severe.

All of these are constructs, rules, which have been designed to keep the play moving. All of the above also tweak their rules on a default basis to react to coaches exploiting weaknesses in their rules.

It's called common sense. Expecting that sporting rules should remain untouched over time goes against the concept of human evolution.

And while you do get shite games in every code in every sport, none of these suffers from the malaise, apathy, and downright disenchantment  which is sweeping through Gaelic football.


Pathetic? I do wonder.

Except they didn't really, it's as easy to play short passes around the back there as it is in football. And a lot of soccer teams play the "blanket defense". You can't just outlaw particular tactics for being boring.

[thewobbler]

The point you miss is that this is brought about by the negative tactic of teams having a 12 man protection of their D for the entire game. Even losing teams! That is the fundamental problem. The fly should not be forced to make unnecessary trips into the spider's parlour just because the spider couldn't be arsed leaving it.

It is pathetic that a losing team refuses to chase the game unless the ball is brought to them and their negative defensive setup.

But I'm not missing this point HS.

By preventing teams from passing the ball back across their halfway line, it gives the chasing team a great incentive to push up, and shepherd their opponents into their own half. So it would create gaps where none currently exist, if only for a short while.

The only "reward" for pushing up now is teams like Dublin having the option to full blitz you going forwards, or to turn and go back if your team works hard enough to re-assume defensive positions. At which point tanks are emptied, and slaughter becomes inevitable.

[thewobbler]

Wobbler, you really propose that we should be making it easier for teams who don't have the balls (or ability) to come out of their own half to get the ball back by forcing the opposing team to bring the ball to them?
That's pathetic. The onus should not be on the winning team to bring the ball to the losing team, it should be on the losing team to go and get it.

No that's not what I'm proposing.

What I'd like to see is that it's more difficult for a winning team to kill the game.

You might call that "pathetic".

But soccer took drastic steps to prevent this, in the form of removing the backpass and limiting goalkeepers to 5 seconds with the ball.

Basketball took drastic steps in the form of not being able to back past the halfway line, then the shot clock.

NFL has downs and a shotclock to ensure teams advance.

Rugby league's fifth tackle rule ensures regular turnovers.

Rugby union has an inbuilt mechanism to devalue clock killing throigh the danger of penalty kicks conceded in your own half.

Aussie Rules doesn't need so much of a precaution, as the penalty for being caught in possession close to goals is so severe.

All of these are constructs, rules, which have been designed to keep the play moving. All of the above also tweak their rules on a default basis to react to coaches exploiting weaknesses in their rules.

It's called common sense. Expecting that sporting rules should remain untouched over time goes against the concept of human evolution.

And while you do get shite games in every code in every sport, none of these suffers from the malaise, apathy, and downright disenchantment  which is sweeping through Gaelic football.


Pathetic? I do wonder.

Except they didn't really, it's as easy to play short passes around the back there as it is in football. And a lot of soccer teams play the "blanket defense". You can't just outlaw particular tactics for being boring.

So you don't think soccer became a more entertaining spectacle as a result of these changes?

I mean, who wouldn't want to pay £60 in to watch 90 mins of sport, in which the ball is unchallenged in De gea's hands for 10 minutes. What a day out that would be.

[Mayo4Sam14]

The point you miss is that this is brought about by the negative tactic of teams having a 12 man protection of their D for the entire game. Even losing teams! That is the fundamental problem. The fly should not be forced to make unnecessary trips into the spider's parlour just because the spider couldn't be arsed leaving it.

It is pathetic that a losing team refuses to chase the game unless the ball is brought to them and their negative defensive setup.

But I'm not missing this point HS.

By preventing teams from passing the ball back across their halfway line, it gives the chasing team a great incentive to push up, and shepherd their opponents into their own half. So it would create gaps where none currently exist, if only for a short while.

The only "reward" for pushing up now is teams like Dublin having the option to full blitz you going forwards, or to turn and go back if your team works hard enough to re-assume defensive positions. At which point tanks are emptied, and slaughter becomes inevitable.

So you're point is to punish the team with better forwards for having them, and this is going to great exciting attacking games. Why not just skip to the chase and just make Dublin play with 11 men and give the other team a two goal head start.

[6th sam]

Wobbler, you really propose that we should be making it easier for teams who don't have the balls (or ability) to come out of their own half to get the ball back by forcing the opposing team to bring the ball to them?
That's pathetic. The onus should not be on the winning team to bring the ball to the losing team, it should be on the losing team to go and get it.

Sports have a vested interest in making the game as exciting as possible, and the top commercial team sports organisations :NFL, NBA, FIFA can't afford to lose excitement or have 1 team dominate, and often legislate for this eg draft system, countdown clock, banning backpass to keeper.

I remember being delighted when Dublin beat Kerry to win the first of this batch of All-Ireland's, but the GAA have created a monster, and tbf Dublin have used the unfair advantages they have very effectively . Dublin are dominant athletically and skill wise but their best way of continuing their winning streak is to get in front and keep ball. At long last , for them, they have managed to crack the best way of ensuring that Within the rules as they stand , they use their physical , structural and financial advantages to the maximum.

Playing rules changes that ensure the attractivess of the game and the result, and disadvantage no team can only be a good thing.
The mark has been a resounding success, the advantage rule less so because it is too referee dependent .
Two simple changes which would have improved yesterday's games as spectacles would be 13-a-side and no back pass in your own half.
I think it was actually sad yesterday to watch potentially the best footballer of this generation, Ciaran Kilkenny, unable to show attacking flair in a conventional forward role, having been conditioned/brainwashed into playing safe keep ball for years.

[thewobbler]

The point you miss is that this is brought about by the negative tactic of teams having a 12 man protection of their D for the entire game. Even losing teams! That is the fundamental problem. The fly should not be forced to make unnecessary trips into the spider's parlour just because the spider couldn't be arsed leaving it.

It is pathetic that a losing team refuses to chase the game unless the ball is brought to them and their negative defensive setup.

But I'm not missing this point HS.

By preventing teams from passing the ball back across their halfway line, it gives the chasing team a great incentive to push up, and shepherd their opponents into their own half. So it would create gaps where none currently exist, if only for a short while.

The only "reward" for pushing up now is teams like Dublin having the option to full blitz you going forwards, or to turn and go back if your team works hard enough to re-assume defensive positions. At which point tanks are emptied, and slaughter becomes inevitable.

So you're point is to punish the team with better forwards for having them, and this is going to great exciting attacking games. Why not just skip to the chase and just make Dublin play with 11 men and give the other team a two goal head start.

How does this possibly punish teams with better forwards? Its purpose is to reduce clock killing. How are you reading it another way?

Is it fair on LeBron James that he has to release the ball within 24 seconds, even though he could probably dance around with it for a couple of minutes?

[thewobbler]

How can bringing in a rule that benefits blanket defending make the game a better spectacle?
The best forwards in the game are being suffocated and you are trying to bring in a rule whereby backs (and the forwards too) will never have reason to be sucked out of their half.

How oh how are you interpreting it this way?

Ffs, if there is a clear benefit for blanket defences  to commit men forward (which they would have to do in order to shepherd opponents to the halfway line), why would they remain in blanket position?

Genuinely I can't work out how you're interpreting this.