The Many Faces of US Politics...

[Gabriel_Hurl]

Jordan Peterson was epousing the same bullshit about people going to jail for misgendering in 2017

[Gmac]

Will people who are called racists , faciists and nazi for no reason other than voting for a political candidate be protected?

[J70]

Ok, so where does it say simply "misgendering someone" will result in prison?

read the bill

I did. I did not see any such language or language that could be reasonably assumed to imply what you claim.

I did see this, however...

Protection of freedom of expression
11. For the purposes of this Part, any material or behaviour is not taken to incite violence or hatred against a person or a group of persons on account of their protected characteristics or any of those characteristics solely on the basis that that material or behaviour includes or involves discussion or criticism of matters relating to a protected characteristic.

Seems to be quite a bit of latitude there for good faith discussion or criticism and mistakes in gender identification, contrary to your paranoid hyperbole (assuming you're making good faith statements).

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/bill/2022/105/eng/ver_b/b105b22d.pdf

is hate speech misgendering someone in the bill ?
What is punishment for hate speech ?
If I said it was a great idea you would probably be against it

Gmac, I posted the link to the bill.

Go ahead and point us to where it says merely "misgendering" someone is hate speech.

The reason I so often oppose what you claim is because your claims are so often nonsensical.

If you're right and can back it up, I'll accept that. But I'm not just taking your claim at face value.

[J70]

Will people who are called racists , faciists and nazi for no reason other than voting for a political candidate be protected?

Will people who are called libtards, marxists, mentally disordered (as in your own "liberalism is a mental disorder ") and pinko commies?

Are political views protected characteristics like race, age, sexual orientation, colour etc?

[RedHand88]

Ok, so where does it say simply "misgendering someone" will result in prison?

read the bill

I did. I did not see any such language or language that could be reasonably assumed to imply what you claim.

I did see this, however...

Protection of freedom of expression
11. For the purposes of this Part, any material or behaviour is not taken to incite violence or hatred against a person or a group of persons on account of their protected characteristics or any of those characteristics solely on the basis that that material or behaviour includes or involves discussion or criticism of matters relating to a protected characteristic.

Seems to be quite a bit of latitude there for good faith discussion or criticism and mistakes in gender identification, contrary to your paranoid hyperbole (assuming you're making good faith statements).

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/bill/2022/105/eng/ver_b/b105b22d.pdf

is hate speech misgendering someone in the bill ?
What is punishment for hate speech ?
If I said it was a great idea you would probably be against it

Gmac, I posted the link to the bill.

Go ahead and point us to where it says merely "misgendering" someone is hate speech.

The reason I so often oppose what you claim is because your claims are so often nonsensical.

If you're right and can back it up, I'll accept that. But I'm not just taking your claim at face value.

Top of page 7
"gender" means the gender of a person or the gender which a person expresses as
the person's preferred gender or with which the person identifies and includes
transgender and a gender other than those of male and female,



So we have established that a person's perceived gender is a protected characteristic under this bill. Now look at section 7....


the person does so with intent to incite violence or hatred against such a person or
group of persons on account of those characteristics or any of those
characteristics or being reckless as to whether such violence or hatred is thereby
incited


So recklessness is enough to break the law, not just intentional. The punishment is on the next page...


A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—
(a) on summary conviction, to a class A fine or imprisonment for a term not
exceeding 12 months or both, or
(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5
years or both.



It's actually mental this has been allowed to pass.

[burdizzo]

It's actually mental this has been allowed to pass.

We're being governed by Facebook ethics.

I wonder is there anyone who doesn't possess material that could get them convicted?

[seafoid]

Ok, so where does it say simply "misgendering someone" will result in prison?

read the bill

I did. I did not see any such language or language that could be reasonably assumed to imply what you claim.

I did see this, however...

Protection of freedom of expression
11. For the purposes of this Part, any material or behaviour is not taken to incite violence or hatred against a person or a group of persons on account of their protected characteristics or any of those characteristics solely on the basis that that material or behaviour includes or involves discussion or criticism of matters relating to a protected characteristic.

Seems to be quite a bit of latitude there for good faith discussion or criticism and mistakes in gender identification, contrary to your paranoid hyperbole (assuming you're making good faith statements).

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/bill/2022/105/eng/ver_b/b105b22d.pdf

is hate speech misgendering someone in the bill ?
What is punishment for hate speech ?
If I said it was a great idea you would probably be against it

Gmac, I posted the link to the bill.

Go ahead and point us to where it says merely "misgendering" someone is hate speech.

The reason I so often oppose what you claim is because your claims are so often nonsensical.

If you're right and can back it up, I'll accept that. But I'm not just taking your claim at face value.

Top of page 7
"gender" means the gender of a person or the gender which a person expresses as
the person's preferred gender or with which the person identifies and includes
transgender and a gender other than those of male and female,



So we have established that a person's perceived gender is a protected characteristic under this bill. Now look at section 7....


the person does so with intent to incite violence or hatred against such a person or
group of persons on account of those characteristics or any of those
characteristics or being reckless as to whether such violence or hatred is thereby
incited


So recklessness is enough to break the law, not just intentional. The punishment is on the next page...


A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—
(a) on summary conviction, to a class A fine or imprisonment for a term not
exceeding 12 months or both, or
(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5
years or both.



It's actually mental this has been allowed to pass.

The trans lobby bought the legislation

[trailer]

Will people who are called racists , faciists and nazi for no reason other than voting for a political candidate be protected?

Not all people who voted for Trump are racists... but all racists voted for Trump.

[J70]

Ok, so where does it say simply "misgendering someone" will result in prison?

read the bill

I did. I did not see any such language or language that could be reasonably assumed to imply what you claim.

I did see this, however...

Protection of freedom of expression
11. For the purposes of this Part, any material or behaviour is not taken to incite violence or hatred against a person or a group of persons on account of their protected characteristics or any of those characteristics solely on the basis that that material or behaviour includes or involves discussion or criticism of matters relating to a protected characteristic.

Seems to be quite a bit of latitude there for good faith discussion or criticism and mistakes in gender identification, contrary to your paranoid hyperbole (assuming you're making good faith statements).

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/bill/2022/105/eng/ver_b/b105b22d.pdf

is hate speech misgendering someone in the bill ?
What is punishment for hate speech ?
If I said it was a great idea you would probably be against it

Gmac, I posted the link to the bill.

Go ahead and point us to where it says merely "misgendering" someone is hate speech.

The reason I so often oppose what you claim is because your claims are so often nonsensical.

If you're right and can back it up, I'll accept that. But I'm not just taking your claim at face value.

Top of page 7
"gender" means the gender of a person or the gender which a person expresses as
the person's preferred gender or with which the person identifies and includes
transgender and a gender other than those of male and female,



So we have established that a person's perceived gender is a protected characteristic under this bill. Now look at section 7....


the person does so with intent to incite violence or hatred against such a person or
group of persons on account of those characteristics or any of those
characteristics or being reckless as to whether such violence or hatred is thereby
incited


So recklessness is enough to break the law, not just intentional. The punishment is on the next page...


A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—
(a) on summary conviction, to a class A fine or imprisonment for a term not
exceeding 12 months or both, or
(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5
years or both.



It's actually mental this has been allowed to pass.

Sorry, but using that to justify what Gmac is claiming is complete nonsense.

"Recklessness" is an act along the lines of Paisley inciting loyalist mobs back in the day or Trump inciting the January 6 attack on the Capitol. Paisley might not have directly and literally told them to head out and burn catholic houses, but he did everything short of that in riling up hatred and apocalyptic fear.

[J70]

It's actually mental this has been allowed to pass.

We're being governed by Facebook ethics.

I wonder is there anyone who doesn't possess material that could get them convicted?

You better finish your bunker and lock yourself in before the woke mob arrives.

Although that won't protect you from paranoid delusions.

[RedHand88]

The recklessness bit is irrelevant to Gmacs point though. It's just an extra bit that makes the whole bill even more draconian.
Do you really not see the issue with this bill? Will it take the first prosecution for you to see it?

Theres a reason why liberals were hesitant about this kind of legislation for so long.

[J70]

The recklessness bit is irrelevant to Gmacs point though. It's just an extra bit that makes the whole bill even more draconian.
Do you really not see the issue with this bill? Will it take the first prosecution for you to see it?

Theres a reason why liberals were hesitant about this kind of legislation for so long.

You're the one who focused on recklessness.

Recklessness has legal precedent behind it in most places. If you go set a match to someone's house to cause property damage and you end up killing someone who you didn't realize was there and whom you didn't intend to hurt, you're still going to be held criminally liable for that death because it was easily foreseeable that your actions could endanger someone's life.

With that out of the way, I see nothing in this bill to support Gmac's contention that someone is going to go to prison or even be bothered by the justice system for the simple act of misgendering someone.

If I'm mistaken, please explain.

[RedHand88]

The recklessness bit is irrelevant to Gmacs point though. It's just an extra bit that makes the whole bill even more draconian.
Do you really not see the issue with this bill? Will it take the first prosecution for you to see it?

Theres a reason why liberals were hesitant about this kind of legislation for so long.

You're the one who focused on recklessness.

Recklessness has legal precedent behind it in most places. If you go set a match to someone's house to cause property damage and you end up killing someone who you didn't realize was there and whom you didn't intend to hurt, you're still going to be held criminally liable for that death because it was easily foreseeable that your actions could endanger someone's life.

With that out of the way, I see nothing in this bill to support Gmac's contention that someone is going to go to prison or even be bothered by the justice system for the simple act of misgendering someone.

If I'm mistaken, please explain.

You are mistaken, its literally there in black and white if you scroll up to my post.
"The preferred gender to which the person identifies" is a protected class.
If you cannot see how misgendering someone does not come into this i can't be bothered talking about it anymore. You will never see it and are the only person here trying to make that point.
I'm away to do some work. Good luck!

[J70]

The whole point of my exchange with Gmac  was that he was claiming that the mere act of misgendering someone could result in prison time. The criminal charges and prison stuff is what we were discussing, NOT the inclusion of gender identity among the protected characteristics.
   
In order for someone to have a credible case brought against them that they are engaging in hate speech or directly or recklessly inciting violence against someone on account of their gender identity, their sexual orientation, their religion, their race, you're going to have to have a lot more going on that just someone mistakenly calling someone else by the wrong pronoun. The other protected characteristics have been there for at least 30 years in Ireland, and there have been 1-2 cases per year in all that time. Yet we've heard plenty about the abuse of people of colour on the playing fields, including GAA fields.

As I pointed out, the act, in section 11, even carves out an exception for good faith debate and discussion, so no one is being muzzled on that front.

[Gmac]

Play along with mental illness or we jail you