I suppose it can be difficult to answer as everyone develops at a different pace but when does it become obvious that a young kid is going to be a decent footballer?
What talents should they possess at what age? I'm curious to know experiences of other juvenile coaches.
When you see a young player performing well in a final or in Croke park.
Fair enough but typically I've often wondered when the likes of B Brogan or Gooch or Murphy started showing they'd be something special. How developed show an 8, 10, 12 year old be if they have designs on being an intercounty footballer?
When Pat Spillane decrees it so.
I read somewhere that Henry shefflin couldn't make his club team at underage.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 23, 2012, 08:31:52 PM
I read somewhere that Henry shefflin couldn't make his club team at underage.
I don't think JJ Delaney played underage for Kilkenny, if it's not him it is someone with multiple AllIrelands and All Stars, maybe Noel Hickey.
Neither could Michael Jordan, he held it as a burning inspiration all his career. Mind you Henry has more All Irelands.
The thing I look at when evaluating if a person has got something 'special' is their decision making, awareness, reading of a game. That stuff is almost innate.
Skills can be worked on, Physicality can be worked on.
The biggest mistake I see is big lads are great and small lads are no good. At 10-12-14 you can't tell whether a lad will shoot up. Suddenly the big fella with the poor awareness or skills becomes a lot less effective when everyone else is as big.
Tony Scullion never played any Minor Football. I've seen lads look like superstars at underage but not cut it at Senior... it's impossible to say!
Different sport and ethos but this question was posed to Arsene Wenger:
What's the youngest age you can tell if a player has the potential to make it? Have you ever looked at a player and known instantly?
At 12 you can detect if technically a player can make it or not. At 14 to 16 you can detect if physically he will be able to cope with the demands of professional sport. And from 16 to 18 you can start to see if a player understands how to connect with other players. At 20 the mental side of things kick in. How does he prepare? How does he cope with life's temptations and the sacrifices a top player must make? This is a job where you must be ready. If you get a chance, you have to take it.
Normally about 5 years after you quit u16 football and you're hanging over the bar "impressing" some doll that you were the best u14 player in Ballymuck up till ye did your knee and then hit the drink.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 23, 2012, 08:36:55 PM
Neither could Michael Jordan, he held it as a burning inspiration all his career. Mind you Henry has more All Irelands.
The thing I look at when evaluating if a person has got something 'special' is their decision making, awareness, reading of a game. That stuff is almost innate.
Skills can be worked on, Physicality can be worked on.
The biggest mistake I see is big lads are great and small lads are no good. At 10-12-14 you can't tell whether a lad will shoot up. Suddenly the big fella with the poor awareness or skills becomes a lot less effective when everyone else is as big.
Brian Lohan never played minor hurling for Clare also.
I've seen it all too often where big lads dominate underage hurling and their size masks poor technique, then all of a sudden everyone grows up round them and that bad technique comes back to haunt them, whereas the smaller lads have to be quicker at their skills to compete, some grow later and some stay small in relation to their peers but the better technique stays with them.
Impossible to quantify. Some players can look like superstars at U13 and be very average by the time they're U16. Others look awful at U13 and can be decent club players later in their teens.
Ciaran Whelan wasn't good enough to get on his school team and Bernard Brogan didn't play Minor.
I think it is an individual thing, certain people will develop quicker than others. some people have a natural raw talent, e.g Ronnie O Sullivan made his first century break at the age of 10 and a maximum 147 at the grand old age of 15.
while others will have to work a lot harder in order to gain success at their chosen sport.
i am currently unolved with our local U14 set up and and i can tell who is going to go through the ranks and who is not, some of them have talent and love the sport, the rest are not great but work hard and then you have the ones that have a natural raw talent but couldnt be bothered and are just lazy and will not develop any further.
Leinster Rugby start identifying talent in 15 year olds, they go through a serious of skills screening at that age so regardless of size if they have the required skill set they move on to the next stage. In the last 2 years they dropped this age from 16 to 15.
2 Corner backs for Tyrone were late enough developers. Ricey never played any underage for Tyrone and our current Aidey McRory would have been very average at underage even at Errigal.
If you're talking about ability to reach the top level, I don't think there can be such a thing as a set age. Technique and natural understanding can be recognised at a very early age, but it's what puberty (I hate that word) does to them that determines if they're going to have the speed and athleticism required. For some youngsters, it might be until they're 18 before it's clear.
I think that Arsne may have been correct in saying
At 12 you can detect if technically a player can make it or not. At 14 to 16 you can detect if physically he will be able to cope with the demands of professional sport. And from 16 to 18 you can start to see if a player understands how to connect with other players. At 20 the mental side of things kick in. How does he prepare? How does he cope with life's temptations and the sacrifices a top player must make? This is a job where you must be ready. If you get a chance, you have to take it.
So talent may be evident at a young age, as young as 8, but only time will tell if they develop into truly talented players. Also what level of talent are you talking about? Is it the ability to play the game at youth level, club level or at the top level.
I have witnessed young players 'grow into themselves' and improve from the age of 14 - 18 while so called better players never improved. During my playing days (bad knee could have been etc :P ) I seen some players go in both directions.
But for me talent is the having something that can't be coached (a topic of its own) and that is determination to succeed, improve, develop. When coaching young players and you see them develop a skill, they have a talent. When you see a young player turn a game around when the chips are down, he has a talent.
There are plenty of top class inter county footballers who never were outstanding in youth football. Phillip Jordan never played for his school team or Tyrone minors but he was determined to succeed.
Give me commitment and good attitude over talent anyday.
Quote from: ballymac on May 24, 2012, 10:30:52 AM
I think that Arsne may have been correct in saying
At 12 you can detect if technically a player can make it or not. At 14 to 16 you can detect if physically he will be able to cope with the demands of professional sport. And from 16 to 18 you can start to see if a player understands how to connect with other players. At 20 the mental side of things kick in. How does he prepare? How does he cope with life's temptations and the sacrifices a top player must make? This is a job where you must be ready. If you get a chance, you have to take it.
So talent may be evident at a young age, as young as 8, but only time will tell if they develop into truly talented players. Also what level of talent are you talking about? Is it the ability to play the game at youth level, club level or at the top level.
I have witnessed young players 'grow into themselves' and improve from the age of 14 - 18 while so called better players never improved. During my playing days (bad knee could have been etc :P ) I seen some players go in both directions.
But for me talent is the having something that can't be coached (a topic of its own) and that is determination to succeed, improve, develop. When coaching young players and you see them develop a skill, they have a talent. When you see a young player turn a game around when the chips are down, he has a talent.
There are plenty of top class inter county footballers who never were outstanding in youth football. Phillip Jordan never played for his school team or Tyrone minors but he was determined to succeed.
Yes he did,
Quote from: ballymac on May 24, 2012, 10:30:52 AM
There are plenty of top class inter county footballers who never were outstanding in youth football. Phillip Jordan never played for his school team or Tyrone minors but he was determined to succeed.
Jordan was a star player at school level. He won everything as a minor.
Quote from: ONeill on May 25, 2012, 01:13:39 AM
Quote from: ballymac on May 24, 2012, 10:30:52 AM
There are plenty of top class inter county footballers who never were outstanding in youth football. Phillip Jordan never played for his school team or Tyrone minors but he was determined to succeed.
Jordan was a star player at school level. He won everything as a minor.
Not sure were ballymac is getting his info
Quote from: mup on May 23, 2012, 06:28:07 PM
I suppose it can be difficult to answer as everyone develops at a different pace but when does it become obvious that a young kid is going to be a decent footballer?
What talents should they possess at what age? I'm curious to know experiences of other juvenile coaches.
By "decent player" I assume you mean a senior player.
I don't think you can ever be 100% sure until he finally gets there. There are so many factors involved as a lad is growing up that you can't be sure until he "arrives."
I'm not including injury here either.
An u12 can show lots of natural skill and ooze confidence but may undergo a lot of change as he grows older.
The changes can be either physical or mental.
He just might not grow sufficiently to compete at senior level. Ther's no way really to predict when he will stop growing. He could well develop other interests and drop GAA entirely or not bother trying to develop his skills further for any number of reasons.
Some like Kieran Donaghy are late developers. He first came to notice while playing for the underdogs- the TG4 compition.
Ronan McGarrity was first and foremost a basketball player and if Liam McHale hadn't spotted his potential and pushed him onto John Maughan's squad, he'd not have been a senior player at all.
Even good u21s don't always deliver the good either or else have to struggle hard to eventually make the grade.
From my own experience I'd say about one in six good u16s will go the whole way and it's impossible to predict who will do so at that age.
Quote from: Onion Bag on May 25, 2012, 07:37:34 AM
Quote from: ONeill on May 25, 2012, 01:13:39 AM
Quote from: ballymac on May 24, 2012, 10:30:52 AM
There are plenty of top class inter county footballers who never were outstanding in youth football. Phillip Jordan never played for his school team or Tyrone minors but he was determined to succeed.
Jordan was a star player at school level. He won everything as a minor.
Not sure were ballymac is getting his info
From the man himself. I think he would know best. He was at a youth presentation explaining how he had the determination to succeed but was not a first choice player on his school team or county team at youth level.
Greg Blaney was identified as a great talent in first year of Secondary School.
i'm pretty sure philip jordan played for st pats armagh in the 1997 macrory cup final
lads if any of you have interest in this subject, I highly suggest the books "bounce" and the "talent code." Looks at some fascinating case studies and tries to rationalise whether talent is nature or nurture. In more cases than not it is the product of early exposure to the sport, quality of environment they are learning in and deep deliberate practice.
I was a legend at under-age.
leg'end n. A tale (or collection of related tales) popularly regarded as true but usually mostly fictional.
Quote from: clarshack on June 01, 2012, 01:39:17 PM
i'm pretty sure philip jordan played for st pats armagh in the 1997 macrory cup final
yea, played for st pats armagh along with cormac mcanallen, got beaten by dungannon in the final. i'm pretty sure he would also have been part of tyrone 97/98 teams as well
You know a players talent has become obvious when kildare try to poach him :-*
or when they're dropped off the Cavan panel :P
For me it's the kids who have not just developed their skills but awareness also and have grasped the concept of team play. You'll have some more skilled kids calling for the ball at every turn, whether they're marked or not, but you'll also have some pointing out the free man. Kids with 'enhanced skill' will stand out and can win games but as a few said everyone else will catch up. At that point the boys with awareness and vision come to the fore. And there's another element, the will not to give up even if you're being hammered.
It really is impossible to tell and so much comes down to attitude of the individual.
At 16, Football is everything to a lot of young players. It's all they think about and while still living at home getting a lift to training or a game of their mammy after school is a great release for them.
The problem is when they hit the minor age group and all of a sudden they are off in college and doing and seeing other things. Not all, but for a good few football slips right down the pecking order. For a start most lads are not living at home anymore so the bond and affiliation they had with their home club starts to dwindle - as they could be in uni an hour or two away from home. That can make football feel like a chore and they try to get away with coming home to train as little as possible.
That effect is further driven home when they reach the u21 age group where in most county's their domestic competition is left till the end of the year, played in poor weather and truth be told last in the pecking order behind SFC, IFC, JFC and MFC. The lads who automatically make the senior team tend to stick with others but others fall away. I know in my own club at that age group we have lost a lot of players in the last 5-10 years.
There is also the reality by at that stage lads are out working and earning their own way in life. Travelling from Dublin, Athlone, Galway or Sligo becomes an expense some simply cannot afford anymore and skipping work is simply not an option for some either.
Those circumstances can greatly reduce a lad's chance of kicking on and making it.
We forget that all our young players have to juggle studies, work etc with trying to maximise their abilities on a football field. Only saw this article yesterday which I found very interesting. If you are a young budding soccer player and tied to a professional contract to help you progress then you really only have yourself to blame for not making - http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/jun/02/daniel-taylor-michael-johnson