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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: Main Street on March 24, 2016, 11:05:02 PM

Title: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: Main Street on March 24, 2016, 11:05:02 PM
It's been 5 years  coming but Radovan Karadzic has lived long enough to be found guilty of genocide and sentenced to 40 years.
Genocide at Srebenica of course,  but it  should also be mentioned that it was the scene of one of the greatest acts of cowardice by NATO and  an armed 800 strong UN force (Dutch) under the command of Thom Karremans, who was promoted after his ignominious retreat to Netherlands.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 24, 2016, 11:20:44 PM
So much hatred in that war.... Awful stories which most haven't been told!!
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: seafoid on March 25, 2016, 01:32:56 AM
So much hatred in that war.... Awful stories which most haven't been told!!
Going back to ww2 and before
The EU messed up recognising the breakup of Yugoslavia without thinking of the consequences.. a bit like the financial crisis
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: bennydorano on March 25, 2016, 07:44:45 AM
It's been festering for Centuries. I took a notion a few years back and read 3 or 4 books on the Balkans, fascinating and terrible stuff. If you come back in another hundred years the tensions will still be simmering.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 25, 2016, 08:25:51 AM
It's been festering for Centuries. I took a notion a few years back and read 3 or 4 books on the Balkans, fascinating and terrible stuff. If you come back in another hundred years the tensions will still be simmering.

Did the same.... Wickedness
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: under the bar on March 25, 2016, 08:58:45 AM

Quote
Going back to ww2 and before
The EU messed up recognising the breakup of Yugoslavia without thinking of the consequences.. a bit like the financial crisis

Forcing Slavs, Slovenes and Croats to live under a Serbian Monarchy in a new Kingdom of Yugoslavia largely created by outsiders was where the real war crimes began.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: seafoid on March 25, 2016, 09:17:02 AM
Bosnia has been the border between
Western and Eastern Roman Empire (4th century)
Western and Eastern Christianity (11th century). Croats are catholic.  Serbs are Orthodox
Hapsburg and Ottoman empires (16th century)
The Krajina region of Croatia is named after the border.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: bennydorano on March 25, 2016, 09:36:16 AM

Quote
Going back to ww2 and before
The EU messed up recognising the breakup of Yugoslavia without thinking of the consequences.. a bit like the financial crisis

Forcing Slavs, Slovenes and Croats to live under a Serbian Monarchy in a new Kingdom of Yugoslavia largely created by outsiders was where the real war crimes began.
Assuming you're talking about post WW2 to near the break-up that was a period when they enjoyed stability! Historians are ambivalent about Tito, but having pretty much read a chronological history of the region before I got into the modern stuff, Tito knew what was required to keep a lid on it and that's exactly  what he did. I think there are clear paralells with the fall of dictators / Arab Spring and ensuing mayhem.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: seafoid on March 25, 2016, 10:05:23 AM
Most of the trouble zones of the last 30 years eg NI Iraq Yugoslavia Turkey Israel Sri Lanka Lebanon involve disputes between ethnic or religious groups. Anywhere the Soviets occupied after WW2 was ruthlessly ethnically cleansed. Yugoslavia was not until the 90s. European countries now are mostly 90% majority for one group.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: Bord na Mona man on March 25, 2016, 10:39:57 AM

Quote
Going back to ww2 and before
The EU messed up recognising the breakup of Yugoslavia without thinking of the consequences.. a bit like the financial crisis

Forcing Slavs, Slovenes and Croats to live under a Serbian Monarchy in a new Kingdom of Yugoslavia largely created by outsiders was where the real war crimes began.
Assuming you're talking about post WW2 to near the break-up that was a period when they enjoyed stability! Historians are ambivalent about Tito, but having pretty much read a chronological history of the region before I got into the modern stuff, Tito knew what was required to keep a lid on it and that's exactly  what he did. I think there are clear paralells with the fall of dictators / Arab Spring and ensuing mayhem.
Agreed. When you look at the leaders who were tyrannical but actually managed to keep a lid on things in hotspot countries - Tito, Gadaffi, Saddam Hussein. Their misdemeanours were small buttons in comparison to the carnage that followed their exit. Deposing them is the easy bit...
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: doodaa on March 25, 2016, 12:27:55 PM
It's been festering for Centuries. I took a notion a few years back and read 3 or 4 books on the Balkans, fascinating and terrible stuff. If you come back in another hundred years the tensions will still be simmering.

Any recommendations for books on the Balkans?
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: armaghniac on March 25, 2016, 12:31:08 PM
Agreed. When you look at the leaders who were tyrannical but actually managed to keep a lid on things in hotspot countries - Tito, Gadaffi, Saddam Hussein. Their misdemeanours were small buttons in comparison to the carnage that followed their exit. Deposing them is the easy bit...

Hussein used poison gas on his citizens, his misdemeanours were substantial. Tito certainly employed political repression, but after the WW2 chaos had settled nothing on the scale of Saddam.

The BBC documentary Death of Yugoslavia is up on Youtube, great documentary work but chilling. On an aside the fact that the EU/Nato/UN etc stood idly by while Karadzic's buddies liquidated Srebenica has not helped Muslim perception in the years since then.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: seafoid on March 25, 2016, 12:34:56 PM
It's been festering for Centuries. I took a notion a few years back and read 3 or 4 books on the Balkans, fascinating and terrible stuff. If you come back in another hundred years the tensions will still be simmering.

Any recommendations for books on the Balkans?
Balkan Express by Slavenka Drakulic
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: doodaa on March 25, 2016, 12:43:05 PM
It's been festering for Centuries. I took a notion a few years back and read 3 or 4 books on the Balkans, fascinating and terrible stuff. If you come back in another hundred years the tensions will still be simmering.

Any recommendations for books on the Balkans?
Balkan Express by Slavenka Drakulic

Thanks  :)
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: bennydorano on March 25, 2016, 01:33:35 PM
It's been festering for Centuries. I took a notion a few years back and read 3 or 4 books on the Balkans, fascinating and terrible stuff. If you come back in another hundred years the tensions will still be simmering.

Any recommendations for books on the Balkans?
Balkan Express by Slavenka Drakulic
Jesus i can hardly remember! The only book I have left in my possession is Kosovo - What everybody needs to know, by Tim Judah.  Fall of Yugoslavia by Misha Glenny. There's another I had and i cant for the life of me remember the name of it, swopped it for a book about Chechnya (to cheer myself up).
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: Bord na Mona man on March 25, 2016, 02:18:35 PM
Agreed. When you look at the leaders who were tyrannical but actually managed to keep a lid on things in hotspot countries - Tito, Gadaffi, Saddam Hussein. Their misdemeanours were small buttons in comparison to the carnage that followed their exit. Deposing them is the easy bit...

Hussein used poison gas on his citizens, his misdemeanours were substantial.
Of course, but the sanctions on Iraq and the subsequent war killed far more people and seriously de-stabilised the country.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: shark on March 25, 2016, 02:58:48 PM
It's been festering for Centuries. I took a notion a few years back and read 3 or 4 books on the Balkans, fascinating and terrible stuff. If you come back in another hundred years the tensions will still be simmering.

Any recommendations for books on the Balkans?

Love Thy Neighbour by Peter Maass is a page turner. You won't be able to put it down.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: Farrandeelin on March 25, 2016, 03:03:27 PM
Must do a bit of reading on Eastern European history myself. Cheers for those recommendations folks.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: seafoid on March 25, 2016, 06:56:49 PM
Must do a bit of reading on Eastern European history myself. Cheers for those recommendations folks.
microcosm, the history of breslau/wroclaw by norman davies  is very good as is after the war is over by giles mcdonogh.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: seafoid on March 25, 2016, 07:01:39 PM
Eastern Europe has always lagged behind the west and always gets shafted eg the eastern front in ww2, the holocaust, the sex trafficking in ukraine today
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: armaghniac on March 25, 2016, 07:23:16 PM
microcosm, the history of breslau/wroclaw by norman davies  is very good as is after the war is over by giles mcdonogh.

Davies book is on my list, Polish history is an interest and I spent several weeks in Wrocław as a student. Where do you get so much time to read Seafoid, given that you are on here all the time?

Eastern Europe has always lagged behind the west and always gets shafted eg the eastern front in ww2, the holocaust, the sex trafficking in ukraine today

Not all of the Warsaw Pact was "Eastern" though, the concept of MittelEuropa has largely been lost.

Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: Main Street on March 25, 2016, 07:26:32 PM
It's been festering for Centuries. I took a notion a few years back and read 3 or 4 books on the Balkans, fascinating and terrible stuff. If you come back in another hundred years the tensions will still be simmering.

Any recommendations for books on the Balkans?
Balkan Express by Slavenka Drakulic
Jesus i can hardly remember! The only book I have left in my possession is Kosovo - What everybody needs to know, by Tim Judah.  Fall of Yugoslavia by Misha Glenny. There's another I had and i cant for the life of me remember the name of it, swopped it for a book about Chechnya (to cheer myself up).
A well researched and accurate novel set in WW2 Sarajevo   The Pale House by Luke McCallin  is excellent,
´German intelligence officer Captain Gregor Reinhardt has been reassigned to the Feldjaegerkorps—a new branch of the military police in sarajevo.´
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-pale-house-luke-mccallin/1117225037 (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-pale-house-luke-mccallin/1117225037)

After that I wanted to read more but then I got distracted.




Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: seafoid on March 25, 2016, 08:07:59 PM
microcosm, the history of breslau/wroclaw by norman davies  is very good as is after the war is over by giles mcdonogh.

Davies book is on my list, Polish history is an interest and I spent several weeks in Wrocław as a student. Where do you get so much time to read Seafoid, given that you are on here all the time?

Eastern Europe has always lagged behind the west and always gets shafted eg the eastern front in ww2, the holocaust, the sex trafficking in ukraine today

Not all of the Warsaw Pact was "Eastern" though, the concept of MittelEuropa has largely been lost.
Mitteleuropa went with the hapsburgs and the jews and germans I think. The East lost too much ground after ww2. Germany was trashed in 1945 but look at it now compared to say hungary.
I read those books a while ago.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: Owenmoresider on March 25, 2016, 09:17:31 PM
The BBC documentary Death of Yugoslavia is up on Youtube, great documentary work but chilling.
That really belongs in the great documentaries thread, an epic work.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: Maguire01 on March 25, 2016, 10:38:44 PM
Great to see all these book recommendations - a subject i've always wanted to be better informed on, i'll be checking some of them out.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: armaghniac on March 26, 2016, 01:28:16 AM
The whole Austro-Hungarian empire is interesting, so many different groups and languages. The whole Balkan side is one aspect, but also the Polish/Ukranian side. I read a book by Anne Applebaum called ,Between East and West about that part of the world and she has also written some stuff on the Iron Curtain that is on the list.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: seafoid on March 26, 2016, 09:38:02 AM
Konin is a good book about Jewish life in Poland
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: Bord na Mona man on March 26, 2016, 03:03:09 PM
The BBC documentary Death of Yugoslavia is up on Youtube, great documentary work but chilling.
That really belongs in the great documentaries thread, an epic work.
Another vote for this one.
This was great documentary series. Thankfully it had little of the lurid sensationalism that infects far too many latter day documentaries.
Also they were done at a great time, before Milosevic was charged, therefore he spoke fairly freely and also when the 2 other major protagonists Tudman and Izetbegovic were still alive.
What struck me about the Yugoslav war was the Milosevic and Karadzic were on our tv screens every night as quasi-statesmen, yet all during this time they were right in the middle of the butchering and ethnic cleansing directing matters.
What was also depressing was that it also highlighted how weak and ineffective the UN can be when pitted against a force that doesn't want to play nice.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: StGallsGAA on March 27, 2016, 05:47:25 AM
Quote
Agreed. When you look at the leaders who were tyrannical but actually managed to keep a lid on things in hotspot countries - Tito, Gadaffi, Saddam Hussein. Their misdemeanours were small buttons in comparison to the carnage that followed their exit. Deposing them is the easy bit...

Hussein used poison gas on his citizens, his misdemeanours were substantial. Tito certainly employed political repression, but after the WW2 chaos had settled nothing on the scale of Saddam.

For all his faults Saddam Hussein established the only secular society in the Middle East where women could enjoy 3rd level education and every citizen was free to practise their own religion. As dictators go he was nowhere close to some of the psychopaths the yanks put in power.  In Iraq the US destroyed the only non-Islamic state in the Middle East they now advocate throughout the region. t**ts.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: armaghniac on March 27, 2016, 11:47:44 AM
I think Jordan has made a reasonable effort without the excesses of Saddam.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: seafoid on March 27, 2016, 01:48:33 PM
I think Jordan has made a reasonable effort without the excesses of Saddam.
Jordan is a US ally. Iraq wasn'T.  Iraq always had the best educated Arabsm
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: bennydorano on June 07, 2021, 07:25:56 PM
https://www.theweek.co.uk/news/world-news/europe/953073/why-ratko-mladic-butcher-of-bosnia-still-hero-balkans

There is a great article in today's UK Times (behind a paywall unfortunately), this crowd seemed to have knocked most of it off. A good, chilling read.

“Glorification and denial of genocide are very much stronger than five or ten years ago – and I have been in this job for 13 years,” Brammertz said, adding that “the underlying attitudes are still present with many politicians and will be over many years to come”.

Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: ziggy90 on June 07, 2021, 09:42:38 PM
It's been festering for Centuries. I took a notion a few years back and read 3 or 4 books on the Balkans, fascinating and terrible stuff. If you come back in another hundred years the tensions will still be simmering.

I would like to know more of the reasons behind the hatred and would like to do a bit of background reading so I'd be grateful for any recommendations you may have.
Cheers.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: Main Street on June 08, 2021, 02:34:04 AM
https://www.theweek.co.uk/news/world-news/europe/953073/why-ratko-mladic-butcher-of-bosnia-still-hero-balkans

There is a great article in today's UK Times (behind a paywall unfortunately), this crowd seemed to have knocked most of it off. A good, chilling read.

“Glorification and denial of genocide are very much stronger than five or ten years ago – and I have been in this job for 13 years,” Brammertz said, adding that “the underlying attitudes are still present with many politicians and will be over many years to come”.

Why don't you copy and paste the article in its entirety, I'm pretty sure the mad mod (that's you Ziggy) won't mind.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: Main Street on June 08, 2021, 02:52:47 AM
It's been festering for Centuries. I took a notion a few years back and read 3 or 4 books on the Balkans, fascinating and terrible stuff. If you come back in another hundred years the tensions will still be simmering.

I would like to know more of the reasons behind the hatred and would like to do a bit of background reading so I'd be grateful for any recommendations you may have.
Cheers.
The BBC documentary series on the whole saga since Tito passed on to Valhalla, is the bee's knees.
Episodes are all on you tube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDADy9b2IBM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDADy9b2IBM)

But it only touches on the lingering traumas from WW2 time. Serbs fought  the Nazis, Fascist Croats  lied down in bed with the Nazis and Moslems were caught in between.   The Serb nationalism that emerged in modern day (1990) was a malignant after effect, turbo DUP.

Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: bennydorano on June 08, 2021, 10:15:32 AM
https://www.theweek.co.uk/news/world-news/europe/953073/why-ratko-mladic-butcher-of-bosnia-still-hero-balkans

There is a great article in today's UK Times (behind a paywall unfortunately), this crowd seemed to have knocked most of it off. A good, chilling read.

“Glorification and denial of genocide are very much stronger than five or ten years ago – and I have been in this job for 13 years,” Brammertz said, adding that “the underlying attitudes are still present with many politicians and will be over many years to come”.

Why don't you copy and paste the article in its entirety, I'm pretty sure the mad mod (that's you Ziggy) won't mind.
I actually buy Newspapers!
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: Rufus T Firefly on June 08, 2021, 03:53:26 PM
The BBC documentary Death of Yugoslavia is up on Youtube, great documentary work but chilling.
That really belongs in the great documentaries thread, an epic work.

Agreed. I recall watching it on TV at the time and have watched the entire series twice more on YouTube.

I always used to watch reports / read up on the Balkans War and used to ponder if such a scenario might have unfolded for us in the North, if things had significantly deteriorated in the early 1970s, as it threatened to once or twice. 
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: KickItInAndStartClapping on June 08, 2021, 04:41:32 PM
The BBC documentary Death of Yugoslavia is up on Youtube, great documentary work but chilling.
That really belongs in the great documentaries thread, an epic work.

Agreed. I recall watching it on TV at the time and have watched the entire series twice more on YouTube.

I always used to watch reports / read up on the Balkans War and used to ponder if such a scenario might have unfolded for us in the North, if things had significantly deteriorated in the early 1970s, as it threatened to once or twice.

Have done some research into this topic but looking to expand my knowledge... apart from the above youtube series are there any other videos that are quality viewing?
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: bennydorano on June 08, 2021, 04:52:28 PM
The Balkans in Flames is shown regularly on the PBS America Channel on the Sky platform. Have it recorded, not sure if it is available on demand atm.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: Main Street on June 08, 2021, 07:55:18 PM
There's the powerful BBC's Storyville 1999 documentary, A Cry From the Grave about the Srebrenica massacre


in 5 parts on YT
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-DUsQyklUM&list=PLBB0910340FFA42BB
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: bennydorano on June 08, 2021, 08:54:18 PM
BBC News - Srebrenica massacre: UN court rejects Mladic genocide appeal
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57346523
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 08, 2021, 09:02:17 PM
BBC News - Srebrenica massacre: UN court rejects Mladic genocide appeal
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57346523

Seen that tonight on channel four news, there are still over 3,500 people that they want for war crimes during that period! It’s taken 25 years to nail that Cnut!

Taking people off buses separating the women from the men and boys  and murdering them and shoving them into mass graves!! A life sentence is too good for this monster
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: StephenC on June 10, 2021, 10:13:41 PM
The BBC documentary Death of Yugoslavia is up on Youtube, great documentary work but chilling.

Thanks for recommending this. What an amazing documentary. I lived through the period but amazing how little I actually knew about it. Chilling indeed and a terrible stain on the EU's credibility.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: HiMucker on June 10, 2021, 10:22:56 PM
The BBC documentary Death of Yugoslavia is up on Youtube, great documentary work but chilling.
That really belongs in the great documentaries thread, an epic work.

Agreed. I recall watching it on TV at the time and have watched the entire series twice more on YouTube.

I always used to watch reports / read up on the Balkans War and used to ponder if such a scenario might have unfolded for us in the North, if things had significantly deteriorated in the early 1970s, as it threatened to once or twice.

Have done some research into this topic but looking to expand my knowledge... apart from the above youtube series are there any other videos that are quality viewing?
The Balkans by Misha Glenny is supposed to be a fantastic read. It's on my hit list
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: Main Street on June 11, 2021, 12:25:08 AM
There is another recent film called Quo Vadis Aida? It was nominated for a foreign film oscar 2021, should have won hands down.
Not for the faint at heart.

The vast majority of Serbs deny the Bosnian genocide took place .
When Celtic played Sarajevo in a  CLQ a few years ago  the local fans behind the goal  unfurled a huge banner for the duration of the game which read something like 'Remember Srebrenica'. I thik it's of vital importance that Karadzic was found guilty for his crimes  by the intl  court, even if he's a feeble withered geeezer. It offers the highest quality internation  recognition that not only did the massacre take place but it was ordered from the top.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: StPatsAbu on June 11, 2021, 01:22:00 AM
Lots of BBC documentary suggestions sadly. Genocide against indigenous people defined the British empire for over 300 years. Not many BBC documentaries about those.
Title: Re: Karadzic; genocide conviction
Post by: Main Street on June 11, 2021, 01:19:09 PM
The BBC did  a 13 part documentary series called 'End of Empire' in 1985 about the original forced Brexits from each of  the 'colonies in the 20C. But by some incredible faux pas, there was no episode on Ireland.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1658557/episodes?season=1&ref_=tt_eps_sn_1 (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1658557/episodes?season=1&ref_=tt_eps_sn_1)
The one they did on Iran was one of the most remarkable documentaries of its time, it centred on the period  of Operation Ajax, the CIA/MI6 staged coup in 1953 in Iran  that ousted the progressive socialist elected government  and installed the Shah. They actually interviewd the MI6 agent who managed the whole coup. And is the background to todays state of affairs in Iran,

That story was retold  in a more recent documentary Coup 53.