The Palestine thread

[Milltown Row2]

I wouldn't be up to knowledge of the conflict in the middle east and briefly look at the headlines and watch the odd documentary on it.

How is Hamas and Fata looked at be their own citizens? I take it there are local democratic elections and these political groups are voted in every year, are there opposing political leaders with a different approach?

[sid waddell]

3 times this week the UN Security Council met.

Ireland has a seat on this council, and 3 times this week, the
USA under Joe Biden, has vetoed any attempts to intervene, including 3 refusals to call for a ceasefire.

Joe Biden is giving Israel the green light to continue with what they are doing, and not only that,
the week before the attacks began, he approved a $750 million mutations supply to Israel.

No doubt those bombs could have been used in the current attacks on Gaza.

I'm sick of hearing people say "we call on the international community to speak out and take action"

The International community, under the UN Security Council, is willing to speak out, but Joe Biden says no.

Because the USA has a veto over every UN Resolution, and they use it every time when it comes to Israel.

So much for democracy, and the International community speaking out.

So instead of calling out for the International community to speak out, how about those with close links to
Joe Biden here in Ireland pick up the phone, and who were proud to support him a few months ago, and which he capitalised on,
implore him to intervene and stop this bloodshed.

They have his number, and his ear.

Why are they not calling him themselves instead of asking others to do so?

Joe Biden likes to talk about how his ancestors left Ireland in 1850, and his ties to Louth and Mayo.

What would his ancestors think of him now as he green lights the death and destruction in Gaza before our eyes?

And don't start me on the Boyle brothers, the sons of Donegal, who are the leading cheerleaders for Israel.

Before the bodies of the 24 men women and children who were killed by Israeli airstrikes, were buried on Monday, 
Congressman Brendan Boyle issued a statement saying Israel had a right to defend itself.

It's high time we called out the great supporters of Ireland over their support for Israel.

It's time to call a spade a spade, and make Ireland a cold house for those Irish loving US politicians
who currently support the ongoing genocide in Palestine.

They need called out, and those who give them a platform, need to be called out as well.

The cow can't forget it was a calf.

That's a good idea as regards Irish-America

I genuinely cannot understand how any Irish-American cannot see the parallels between Ireland and Palestine

It is either
i) a deliberate misunderstanding or rejection of Irish history
or
ii) cowardice

I think it's both actually

The start of the road to ending apartheid in South Africa was sporting boycotts

FIFA banned South Africa around about 1963/64 I think, that was followed by a cricket ban after the d'Oliveira affair around 1969

Steadily, the concept of ostracising South Africa from the international community became more and more common sense in the minds of the people of the international community

If Israel could be banned from, say UEFA events, or the Eurovision Song Contest, that would legitimise the concept of boycotting it internationally in a host of other areas, it would show that it is possible, and maybe it could grow from there

Whataboutery is a cancer on public debate and that's what Israel and its defenders do

They ask why do you want to boycott Israel, what about China,"that shows you're anti-Semitic!"

We need to come up with serious answers to these questions

Perhaps the Palestinian cause needs to ally firmly with the causes of other oppressed peoples such as the Uyghurs - and oppressed peoples in majority Muslim countries, such as the Kurds

There really needs to be some sort of a broad worldwide pro-freedom front encompassing oppressed peoples

What I do know is that whataboutery is a tool to enable tyranny and destroy good faith pubic debate

[tiempo]

3 times this week the UN Security Council met.

Ireland has a seat on this council, and 3 times this week, the
USA under Joe Biden, has vetoed any attempts to intervene, including 3 refusals to call for a ceasefire.

Joe Biden is giving Israel the green light to continue with what they are doing, and not only that,
the week before the attacks began, he approved a $750 million mutations supply to Israel.

No doubt those bombs could have been used in the current attacks on Gaza.

I'm sick of hearing people say "we call on the international community to speak out and take action"

The International community, under the UN Security Council, is willing to speak out, but Joe Biden says no.

Because the USA has a veto over every UN Resolution, and they use it every time when it comes to Israel.

So much for democracy, and the International community speaking out.

So instead of calling out for the International community to speak out, how about those with close links to
Joe Biden here in Ireland pick up the phone, and who were proud to support him a few months ago, and which he capitalised on,
implore him to intervene and stop this bloodshed.

They have his number, and his ear.

Why are they not calling him themselves instead of asking others to do so?

Joe Biden likes to talk about how his ancestors left Ireland in 1850, and his ties to Louth and Mayo.

What would his ancestors think of him now as he green lights the death and destruction in Gaza before our eyes?

And don't start me on the Boyle brothers, the sons of Donegal, who are the leading cheerleaders for Israel.

Before the bodies of the 24 men women and children who were killed by Israeli airstrikes, were buried on Monday, 
Congressman Brendan Boyle issued a statement saying Israel had a right to defend itself.

It's high time we called out the great supporters of Ireland over their support for Israel.

It's time to call a spade a spade, and make Ireland a cold house for those Irish loving US politicians
who currently support the ongoing genocide in Palestine.

They need called out, and those who give them a platform, need to be called out as well.

The cow can't forget it was a calf.

That's a good idea as regards Irish-America

I genuinely cannot understand how any Irish-American cannot see the parallels between Ireland and Palestine

It is either
i) a deliberate misunderstanding or rejection of Irish history
or
ii) cowardice

I think it's both actually

The start of the road to ending apartheid in South Africa was sporting boycotts

FIFA banned South Africa around about 1963/64 I think, that was followed by a cricket ban after the d'Oliveira affair around 1969

Steadily, the concept of ostracising South Africa from the international community became more and more common sense in the minds of the people of the international community

If Israel could be banned from, say UEFA events, or the Eurovision Song Contest, that would legitimise the concept of boycotting it internationally in a host of other areas, it would show that it is possible, and maybe it could grow from there

Whataboutery is a cancer on public debate and that's what Israel and its defenders do

They ask why do you want to boycott Israel, what about China,"that shows you're anti-Semitic!"

We need to come up with serious answers to these questions

Perhaps the Palestinian cause needs to ally firmly with the causes of other oppressed peoples such as the Uyghurs - and oppressed peoples in majority Muslim countries, such as the Kurds

There really needs to be some sort of a broad worldwide pro-freedom front encompassing oppressed peoples

What I do know is that whataboutery is a tool to enable tyranny and destroy good faith pubic debate

Banned from UEFA and the song contest... the fact they are even in there in the first place shows the levels to which their lobby has infiltrated just about any organization that helps their propagandists. The Zionists are the modern day Nazi's; a bloodcurdling insult to the victims of the holocaust .

[tonto1888]

I wouldn't be up to knowledge of the conflict in the middle east and briefly look at the headlines and watch the odd documentary on it.

How is Hamas and Fata looked at be their own citizens? I take it there are local democratic elections and these political groups are voted in every year, are there opposing political leaders with a different approach?

A lot like political groups everywhere. Some like them. Some don't. Hamas in particular get a lot of dislike from Gazans.

[Milltown Row2]

I wouldn't be up to knowledge of the conflict in the middle east and briefly look at the headlines and watch the odd documentary on it.

How is Hamas and Fata looked at be their own citizens? I take it there are local democratic elections and these political groups are voted in every year, are there opposing political leaders with a different approach?

A lot like political groups everywhere. Some like them. Some don't. Hamas in particular get a lot of dislike from Gazans.

But its two main groupings? Fatas and Hamas?

Its a horrible war and only the introduction of Russia and the US peace talks will solve it as no one else will be listened too. They won't solve it themselves at this rate

[Rossfan]

The U.S. could help by ending the non stop 100% support of the rogue State of Israel.
Biden won't even call for a truce ffs!
The EU need to pull all their Ambasdadors out of Israel, shut the Israeli embassies and cease all trade or other dealings with them.

[Milltown Row2]

The U.S. could help by ending the non stop 100% support of the rogue State of Israel.
Biden won't even call for a truce ffs!
The EU need to pull all their Ambasdadors out of Israel, shut the Israeli embassies and cease all trade or other dealings with them.

So what are factors that keep the US out of Israel and not other countries? Would the current and previous governments lose elections over this and that's why continue to 'turn an blind eye' ?

Is there a wealthy benefactor that has a huge say in the politics of Israel? 

How governments with some sort of influence and not get involved is very telling.

[seafoid]

3 times this week the UN Security Council met.

Ireland has a seat on this council, and 3 times this week, the
USA under Joe Biden, has vetoed any attempts to intervene, including 3 refusals to call for a ceasefire.

Joe Biden is giving Israel the green light to continue with what they are doing, and not only that,
the week before the attacks began, he approved a $750 million mutations supply to Israel.

No doubt those bombs could have been used in the current attacks on Gaza.

I'm sick of hearing people say "we call on the international community to speak out and take action"

The International community, under the UN Security Council, is willing to speak out, but Joe Biden says no.

Because the USA has a veto over every UN Resolution, and they use it every time when it comes to Israel.

So much for democracy, and the International community speaking out.

So instead of calling out for the International community to speak out, how about those with close links to
Joe Biden here in Ireland pick up the phone, and who were proud to support him a few months ago, and which he capitalised on,
implore him to intervene and stop this bloodshed.

They have his number, and his ear.

Why are they not calling him themselves instead of asking others to do so?

Joe Biden likes to talk about how his ancestors left Ireland in 1850, and his ties to Louth and Mayo.

What would his ancestors think of him now as he green lights the death and destruction in Gaza before our eyes?

And don't start me on the Boyle brothers, the sons of Donegal, who are the leading cheerleaders for Israel.

Before the bodies of the 24 men women and children who were killed by Israeli airstrikes, were buried on Monday, 
Congressman Brendan Boyle issued a statement saying Israel had a right to defend itself.

It's high time we called out the great supporters of Ireland over their support for Israel.

It's time to call a spade a spade, and make Ireland a cold house for those Irish loving US politicians
who currently support the ongoing genocide in Palestine.

They need called out, and those who give them a platform, need to be called out as well.

The cow can't forget it was a calf.

That's a good idea as regards Irish-America

I genuinely cannot understand how any Irish-American cannot see the parallels between Ireland and Palestine

It is either
i) a deliberate misunderstanding or rejection of Irish history
or
ii) cowardice

I think it's both actually

The start of the road to ending apartheid in South Africa was sporting boycotts

FIFA banned South Africa around about 1963/64 I think, that was followed by a cricket ban after the d'Oliveira affair around 1969

Steadily, the concept of ostracising South Africa from the international community became more and more common sense in the minds of the people of the international community

If Israel could be banned from, say UEFA events, or the Eurovision Song Contest, that would legitimise the concept of boycotting it internationally in a host of other areas, it would show that it is possible, and maybe it could grow from there

Whataboutery is a cancer on public debate and that's what Israel and its defenders do

They ask why do you want to boycott Israel, what about China,"that shows you're anti-Semitic!"

We need to come up with serious answers to these questions

Perhaps the Palestinian cause needs to ally firmly with the causes of other oppressed peoples such as the Uyghurs - and oppressed peoples in majority Muslim countries, such as the Kurds

There really needs to be some sort of a broad worldwide pro-freedom front encompassing oppressed peoples

What I do know is that whataboutery is a tool to enable tyranny and destroy good faith pubic debate

Support for Palestine is a left wing thing. A lot of Irish Americans are hard core right wing. Trump employed loads of them.
Biden is a neoliberal and so are the Boyles.

Zionist power in DC is like Tammany Hall was. A small minority with outsized political power. Tammany Hall had to be destroyed by Mr Airport
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaHflVDIzZo

 

[OgraAnDun]

The U.S. could help by ending the non stop 100% support of the rogue State of Israel.
Biden won't even call for a truce ffs!
The EU need to pull all their Ambasdadors out of Israel, shut the Israeli embassies and cease all trade or other dealings with them.

So what are factors that keep the US out of Israel and not other countries? Would the current and previous governments lose elections over this and that's why continue to 'turn an blind eye' ?

Is there a wealthy benefactor that has a huge say in the politics of Israel? 

How governments with some sort of influence and not get involved is very telling.

AIPAC is the answer in the US, the only place where it really matters given Washington's level of support for Israel.

[sid waddell]

This passage is contained in "Flat Earth News" by Nick Davies (2008)

...the most potent electric fence in the world is the one erected on behalf of the Israeli government...journalists who write stories which offend the politics of the Israeli lobby are subjected to a campaign of formal complaints and pressure on their editors; most of all, they are inundated with letters and emails which can be extravagant in their hostility...there is now a network of pro-Israel pressure groups who specialise in orchestrating complaints against the media. HonestReporting has offices in London, New York and Toronto and claims to have 140,000 members on whom it can call to drench media organisations in letters and emails (he goes on to describe many more pro-Israel pressure groups)...the result is that some facts become too dangerous: to report Palestinian casualties; to depict the Palestinians as victims of Israeli occupation; to refer to the historic ousting of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes; to refer to the killing of Palestinian civilians by Zionist groups in the 1940s...words become dangerous: to speak of 'occupied territories'; to describe Palestinian bombers as anything other than 'terrorists'; to reject the Israeli government euphemism of 'targeted killings'. Crucially, there is no lobby of similar force on the Palestinian side.

[sid waddell]

Banned from UEFA and the song contest... the fact they are even in there in the first place shows the levels to which their lobby has infiltrated just about any organization that helps their propagandists. The Zionists are the modern day Nazi's; a bloodcurdling insult to the victims of the holocaust .

I myself think the way the Israeli government behave towards the Palestinian people is an insult to the victims of the Holocaust but as soon as you start calling Israelis Nazis it is a disaster for the advancement of the Palestinian cause internationally, it is easy for Israel to frame such language as anti-Semitic - this is Israel's meat and drink in terms of neutralising opposition

[seafoid]

This passage is contained in "Flat Earth News" by Nick Davies (2008)

...the most potent electric fence in the world is the one erected on behalf of the Israeli government...journalists who write stories which offend the politics of the Israeli lobby are subjected to a campaign of formal complaints and pressure on their editors; most of all, they are inundated with letters and emails which can be extravagant in their hostility...there is now a network of pro-Israel pressure groups who specialise in orchestrating complaints against the media. HonestReporting has offices in London, New York and Toronto and claims to have 140,000 members on whom it can call to drench media organisations in letters and emails (he goes on to describe many more pro-Israel pressure groups)...the result is that some facts become too dangerous: to report Palestinian casualties; to depict the Palestinians as victims of Israeli occupation; to refer to the historic ousting of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes; to refer to the killing of Palestinian civilians by Zionist groups in the 1940s...words become dangerous: to speak of 'occupied territories'; to describe Palestinian bombers as anything other than 'terrorists'; to reject the Israeli government euphemism of 'targeted killings'. Crucially, there is no lobby of similar force on the Palestinian side.

I think things have changed somewhat since 2008. Jimmy Carter was excoriated for his book "Peace or Apartheid" because he dared to call the occupation apartheid.
Now they even use the word on MSNBC. Israeli spokespeople are seen as hysterical/groupthinking.

Netanyahu's strategy of reaching out to countries like Sudan (which needed to regain access to international markets) and the UAE while ignoring the Palestinians has failed. The future of Israel is very unclear.

[tiempo]

Banned from UEFA and the song contest... the fact they are even in there in the first place shows the levels to which their lobby has infiltrated just about any organization that helps their propagandists. The Zionists are the modern day Nazi's; a bloodcurdling insult to the victims of the holocaust .

I myself think the way the Israeli government behave towards the Palestinian people is an insult to the victims of the Holocaust but as soon as you start calling Israelis Nazis it is a disaster for the advancement of the Palestinian cause internationally, it is easy for Israel to frame such language as anti-Semitic - this is Israel's meat and drink in terms of neutralising opposition

Even the term anti-Semitic has been misappropriated; the Zionist strategy of propaganda manipulation is on par with Goebbels, the Palestinian Arabs are a Semitic people; its the Zionists who are anti-Semitic. Anti-Semitic has been wrongly framed as "Jew-hater" and in turn used to smear and traduce pacifists and good men such as Corbyn, its a barbaric ideology in its current guise.

[tonto1888]

I wouldn't be up to knowledge of the conflict in the middle east and briefly look at the headlines and watch the odd documentary on it.

How is Hamas and Fata looked at be their own citizens? I take it there are local democratic elections and these political groups are voted in every year, are there opposing political leaders with a different approach?

A lot like political groups everywhere. Some like them. Some don't. Hamas in particular get a lot of dislike from Gazans.

But its two main groupings? Fatas and Hamas?

Its a horrible war and only the introduction of Russia and the US peace talks will solve it as no one else will be listened too. They won't solve it themselves at this rate

Hamas have de facto control of Gaza. The PA are in the West Bank.

[sid waddell]

This passage is contained in "Flat Earth News" by Nick Davies (2008)

...the most potent electric fence in the world is the one erected on behalf of the Israeli government...journalists who write stories which offend the politics of the Israeli lobby are subjected to a campaign of formal complaints and pressure on their editors; most of all, they are inundated with letters and emails which can be extravagant in their hostility...there is now a network of pro-Israel pressure groups who specialise in orchestrating complaints against the media. HonestReporting has offices in London, New York and Toronto and claims to have 140,000 members on whom it can call to drench media organisations in letters and emails (he goes on to describe many more pro-Israel pressure groups)...the result is that some facts become too dangerous: to report Palestinian casualties; to depict the Palestinians as victims of Israeli occupation; to refer to the historic ousting of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes; to refer to the killing of Palestinian civilians by Zionist groups in the 1940s...words become dangerous: to speak of 'occupied territories'; to describe Palestinian bombers as anything other than 'terrorists'; to reject the Israeli government euphemism of 'targeted killings'. Crucially, there is no lobby of similar force on the Palestinian side.

I think things have changed somewhat since 2008. Jimmy Carter was excoriated for his book "Peace or Apartheid" because he dared to call the occupation apartheid.
Now they even use the word on MSNBC. Israeli spokespeople are seen as hysterical/groupthinking.

Netanyahu's strategy of reaching out to countries like Sudan (which needed to regain access to international markets) and the UAE while ignoring the Palestinians has failed. The future of Israel is very unclear.

I don't think things have changed at all

Ursula von der Leyen's tweet last week is proof of that

The treatment of Corbyn is proof of that

The Biden administration in the US carries the hope of some progressive change domestically and internationally but Israel is the one area where they carry no hope whatsoever of any sort of progressive change

Israel has the power, and that's all it cares about

The international community - in terms of where power lies - operates on the basis that it must never touch the electric fence of offending Israel in any way

I think things are worse than in 2008 to be honest