Martin O'Neill on what it means to be Irish

[ziggysego]

She sounded lost to the North with not a single reference to her roots.  I know it may seem niaive but I have become somewhat disillusioned as I am a great believer in remembering where you came from.

Says the Tyrone man.

How's Belfast?

[slow corner back]

More pertinently, there have been a number of post-partition captains before MON whom I know to have been Catholic. The first of these was Peter Doherty in the 1930's, who was also accorded the honour of being NI's first ever Manager (when responsibility for picking the team passed from a Board of Selectors). He was followed by Jackie Vernon, a Falls Road butcher and Belfast Celtic player, who was so honoured even after having first played twice for Eire in 1946! Moreover, Vernon  was the only NI player on the "GB" team which played the Rest of Europe in a benefit match for FIFA in Glasgow, in 1947.
And Dublin-born Johnny Carey also captained "Ireland" (i.e. NI) in the 40's. despite his having previously captained Eire on a number of occasions. Also in the 40's and 50's, Southerner Con Martin (father of Mick), was also picked to captain "Ireland" (NI), despite his, too, having previously captained Eire.

You wouldn't mind explaining this again for me EG, cos I frankly am not getting this.  Bear in mind that I don't know when the north and south stopped playing together, but can you tell me who the first catholic captain of the northern ireland soccer team was, this team representing only the 6 counties now known as Northern Ireland.

From what I can make of it there were two Peter Doherty and Charlie Vernon both pre about 1955?. Coincidentally did Bertie Peacock ever captain NI? I know he was the main player on the 1958 team, Just curious?By the way EG I particulary liked your point about how Jim Cleary would get more cheers than Gary Hamilton as it contradicts totally with your point about O Neill being a culchie. As far as I am aware Jim Cleary was from fermanagh which is about as far from belfast as it is possible to be in NI. He did play for a belfast team, Glentoran but the so did O Neill, Distillery. Did you manage to grab any of those straws on the way past?

[Rossfan]

President McAleese comes across very well, more as a very positive educator/inspiration.


I still remember that day and how well she spoke about becoming President while recalling her roots in Belfast.

it was very interesting to hear the President talk about her home parish, the great people of the area and their many talents.  Apparently her home parish is now in Roscommon! 

Her father Paddy Leneghan was from Croghan parish in our fair land.
She now has a house in the neighbouring parish of Ardcarne( near Cootehall) where I almost had the privilege of running her down one day on the narrow road from her house to the village as her,Martin and a fat red faced Detective minder walked along.
Anyway we didnt burn her out unlike the nice Belfast folk so maybe that might tinge her views a little

[MW]

More pertinently, there have been a number of post-partition captains before MON whom I know to have been Catholic. The first of these was Peter Doherty in the 1930's, who was also accorded the honour of being NI's first ever Manager (when responsibility for picking the team passed from a Board of Selectors). He was followed by Jackie Vernon, a Falls Road butcher and Belfast Celtic player, who was so honoured even after having first played twice for Eire in 1946! Moreover, Vernon  was the only NI player on the "GB" team which played the Rest of Europe in a benefit match for FIFA in Glasgow, in 1947.
And Dublin-born Johnny Carey also captained "Ireland" (i.e. NI) in the 40's. despite his having previously captained Eire on a number of occasions. Also in the 40's and 50's, Southerner Con Martin (father of Mick), was also picked to captain "Ireland" (NI), despite his, too, having previously captained Eire.

You wouldn't mind explaining this again for me EG, cos I frankly am not getting this.  Bear in mind that I don't know when the north and south stopped playing together, but can you tell me who the first catholic captain of the northern ireland soccer team was, this team representing only the 6 counties now known as Northern Ireland.

It's actually a big ask to identify when the first "Northern Ireland" as opposed to "Ireland" match was. There's no clear-cut date and various records have taken their pick from 1921, 1923, 1926, 1950, 1954 or simply post-war...

[MW]

President McAleese comes across very well, more as a very positive educator/inspiration.

I used to think that and had the privilege to graduate from QUB in 1999 when she received an honourary doctorate from her old employers whenshe became President.  I still remember that day and how well she spoke about becoming President while recalling her roots in Belfast.
it may seem niaive but I have become somewhat disillusioned as I am a great believer in remembering where you came from.

Just before the turn of the year in 1998 wasn't it? My dad got his masters that day, don't remember much of President McAleese's speech though. Got a couple of snaps somewhere though!

[boojangles]

mon carries himself like a man comfortable in his skin with nothing to prove to anyone. i like his point that he can play for ni and it doesnt make him any less irish (obviously true but i like that he makes it). if he becomes man u manager i will have to ditch my long held hatred/bigotry towards them and start supporting them. that will be tough but it will be done

f**k as much as I respect the man,I could never find a soft spot for Manchester United- well maybe the Bog of Allen.

[Donagh]

President McAleese comes across very well, more as a very positive educator/inspiration.

I used to think that and had the privilege to graduate from QUB in 1999 when she received an honourary doctorate from her old employers whenshe became President.  I still remember that day and how well she spoke about becoming President while recalling her roots in Belfast.
it may seem niaive but I have become somewhat disillusioned as I am a great believer in remembering where you came from.

Just before the turn of the year in 1998 wasn't it? My dad got his masters that day, don't remember much of President McAleese's speech though. Got a couple of snaps somewhere though!

It was Christmas 1998 - graduated the same day myself along with Lawrence McKeown and Dara O'Hagan.

[Bogball XV]

More pertinently, there have been a number of post-partition captains before MON whom I know to have been Catholic. The first of these was Peter Doherty in the 1930's, who was also accorded the honour of being NI's first ever Manager (when responsibility for picking the team passed from a Board of Selectors). He was followed by Jackie Vernon, a Falls Road butcher and Belfast Celtic player, who was so honoured even after having first played twice for Eire in 1946! Moreover, Vernon  was the only NI player on the "GB" team which played the Rest of Europe in a benefit match for FIFA in Glasgow, in 1947.
And Dublin-born Johnny Carey also captained "Ireland" (i.e. NI) in the 40's. despite his having previously captained Eire on a number of occasions. Also in the 40's and 50's, Southerner Con Martin (father of Mick), was also picked to captain "Ireland" (NI), despite his, too, having previously captained Eire.

You wouldn't mind explaining this again for me EG, cos I frankly am not getting this.  Bear in mind that I don't know when the north and south stopped playing together, but can you tell me who the first catholic captain of the northern ireland soccer team was, this team representing only the 6 counties now known as Northern Ireland.

It's actually a big ask to identify when the first "Northern Ireland" as opposed to "Ireland" match was. There's no clear-cut date and various records have taken their pick from 1921, 1923, 1926, 1950, 1954 or simply post-war...

There was me thinking it was a simple question too.  Surely it can't be that difficult?  Would it not be when 2 irish teams first played internationals simultaneously? 

More pertinently, there have been a number of post-partition captains before MON whom I know to have been Catholic. The first of these was Peter Doherty in the 1930's, who was also accorded the honour of being NI's first ever Manager (when responsibility for picking the team passed from a Board of Selectors). He was followed by Jackie Vernon, a Falls Road butcher and Belfast Celtic player, who was so honoured even after having first played twice for Eire in 1946! Moreover, Vernon  was the only NI player on the "GB" team which played the Rest of Europe in a benefit match for FIFA in Glasgow, in 1947.
And Dublin-born Johnny Carey also captained "Ireland" (i.e. NI) in the 40's. despite his having previously captained Eire on a number of occasions. Also in the 40's and 50's, Southerner Con Martin (father of Mick), was also picked to captain "Ireland" (NI), despite his, too, having previously captained Eire.

You wouldn't mind explaining this again for me EG, cos I frankly am not getting this.  Bear in mind that I don't know when the north and south stopped playing together, but can you tell me who the first catholic captain of the northern ireland soccer team was, this team representing only the 6 counties now known as Northern Ireland.

From what I can make of it there were two Peter Doherty and Charlie Vernon both pre about 1955?. Coincidentally did Bertie Peacock ever captain NI? I know he was the main player on the 1958 team, Just curious?By the way EG I particulary liked your point about how Jim Cleary would get more cheers than Gary Hamilton as it contradicts totally with your point about O Neill being a culchie. As far as I am aware Jim Cleary was from fermanagh which is about as far from belfast as it is possible to be in NI. He did play for a belfast team, Glentoran but the so did O Neill, Distillery. Did you manage to grab any of those straws on the way past?

Were there though?  I could only see that Vernon and Doherty both captained teams, but I couldn't discern what those teams were called and who or where they represented, I'm not really that interested, just wanted to see if EG was being pedantic as I'd be surprised if O'Neill was been wrong with his facts (I think the former might well be the case though).

[MW]

You wouldn't mind explaining this again for me EG, cos I frankly am not getting this.  Bear in mind that I don't know when the north and south stopped playing together, but can you tell me who the first catholic captain of the northern ireland soccer team was, this team representing only the 6 counties now known as Northern Ireland.

It's actually a big ask to identify when the first "Northern Ireland" as opposed to "Ireland" match was. There's no clear-cut date and various records have taken their pick from 1921, 1923, 1926, 1950, 1954 or simply post-war...

There was me thinking it was a simple question too.  Surely it can't be that difficult?  Would it not be when 2 irish teams first played internationals simultaneously?  [/quote]

That would be one definition. The Irish Free State played its first full international match in 1926. However the Ireland team as selected by the IFA continued just as before. The IFA fiercely resisted having its team restricted to Northern Ireland, and continued to use the name Ireland.

You could call the IFA teams in the late 1920s and the 1930s Northern Ireland, as many record books do, but they contained (often substantial) southern continigents and were officially called Ireland. (Meanwhile the FAI began to use the name Ireland too in 1936). The last "All-Ireland" (i.e. with southern players) team the IFA selected was actually in 1950.

It wasn't until 1954 that FIFA ruled that the IFA team should be called Northern Ireland and the FAI team the Republic of Ireland. (Even then the IFA were permitted to retain the right to call its team Ireland for the Home Internationals. It was only really in the 1970s that the IFA, fans and media alike used Northern Ireland habitally as the team's name - looking a programme cover from the 1960s for instance would likely show "Ireland" for a Home International and "Northern Ireland" (with a Tiny "Northern") for a World Cup or European Nations Cup game.)

So first Northern Ireland as opposed to Ireland match? Could be 1921, when the FAI broke away and the island was partitioned. Could be 1923, when the FAI (as the FAIFS) was admitted to FIFA and granted the right to select an Irish Free State team. Could be 1926, when the Free State played its first game. Could be 1950, when the IFA fielded its last "All-Ireland" team. Or it could be 1954, when the title Northern Ireland was inaugurated.

[MW]

President McAleese comes across very well, more as a very positive educator/inspiration.

I used to think that and had the privilege to graduate from QUB in 1999 when she received an honourary doctorate from her old employers whenshe became President.  I still remember that day and how well she spoke about becoming President while recalling her roots in Belfast.
it may seem niaive but I have become somewhat disillusioned as I am a great believer in remembering where you came from.

Just before the turn of the year in 1998 wasn't it? My dad got his masters that day, don't remember much of President McAleese's speech though. Got a couple of snaps somewhere though!

It was Christmas 1998 - graduated the same day myself along with Lawrence McKeown and Dara O'Hagan.

Thought so - bit of a mixed bag in the Whitla Hall that day then

[baoithe]

The second lecture was the best of them. Very interesting.

The third lecture by Padraig O Ceidigh was interesting and could  even be inspiring but it struck me that he was reciting a motivational talk that he often gives. Also, to my mind, he didn't answer the audience's questions adequately.

Aye I heard the Louise Richardson one. It was interesting but I got the impression if she was answering the question on "what it means to be Irish to me", her answer would be "not a lot".

She wasn't speaking on what it means to be Irish - her lecture was on Ireland's role in the world. Each of the three lectures had different topics under the overall heading of "Ireland of Tomorrow". Padraig O Ceidigh's lecture was, I think, a consideration of whether Ireland was an economy or society.

[saffron sam2]

Once again you distort and misrepresent what I posted.

No I didn't. I would also be happy if you could give examples of my previous distortions and misrepesentations which allow you to use the words "Once again".

Once again you distort and misrepresent what I posted. MON has in the past commented that he wasn't so popular with (a section of) the NI supporters e.g. as Sammy McIlroy. I accept that one of the reasons for this may have been his Nationalist background etc.

Good, because in the original post I refer to, you were unable to accept such a suggestion. Progress of sorts. Which is good.

But I suggest that an additional reason may be that Sammy Mac played for MU - by far the most popular club team in NI; also, because he (and the McCreerys) are local boys, and with soccer being a predominantly urban game in NI and the majority of the crowd being from Belfast, such a reaction is no more remarkable e.g. than a Glentoran player (Jimmy Cleary?) getting a bigger cheer than, say, a Portadown player (Gary Hamilton?)

The use of the word additional is new. I have debated the rest of your point above before and there remain so many holes in it and so little time left in my life that I am loathe to involve myself in the circular argument that will ensue.

The rest of your post is totally irrelevant. However, you should keep a copy and just paste it into any thread you want to contribute to.

[Aerlik]

Tbrick, was that Fr. Leo Deery?  He was indeed a big Our Martin fan and mentioned him in the brochure for the opening of the Pearses' Kilrea GFC new pitch in 1979. 

To see what Our Martin has achieved and to know where he comes from is inspiration in itself.

[ONeill]

She sounded lost to the North with not a single reference to her roots.  I know it may seem niaive but I have become somewhat disillusioned as I am a great believer in remembering where you came from.

Says the Tyrone man.

How's Belfast?

Looks fine to me but I only get to see glimpses of it between 8.30 and 4.00 before I head home.

[A Quinn Martin Production]

In an aside, nice to see the Vernon family getting a name check.  While "Sausage" Vernon preferred to stick to the soccer, his brothers Hugh and Charlie (grandfather of Charlie Vernon of Armagh?) both played football for Antrim and I think both won Railway Cup medals with Ulster in the 1940's.