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Messages - APM

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1
General discussion / Re: Odious People
« on: Today at 02:41:45 PM »
Pretty depressing thread
Says a lot about the mentality of many of the GAABoard members when we have threads like this getting so many replies in a short state of time


2
GAA Discussion / Re: 2022 Fixtures - anyone?
« on: November 15, 2021, 12:42:02 PM »
That link seems to be going nowhere now?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_National_Football_League_(Ireland)

You mightn't be missing much. As Maddog says, Armagh and Mayo are down to play on a Tuesday - I think that's a first  :o

3
GAA Discussion / Re: 2022 Fixtures - anyone?
« on: November 15, 2021, 11:38:29 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_National_Football_League_(Ireland)

Don't know how accurate that is as there are no fixtures posted for Div 2.

There'll be none played in MacHale Park. Which is a pity.

Am surprised to see Monaghan down to play Armagh in Blaney 

4
GAA Discussion / Re: 2022 Fixtures - anyone?
« on: November 15, 2021, 11:25:13 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_National_Football_League_(Ireland)

Don't know how accurate that is as there are no fixtures posted for Div 2.

5
GAA Discussion / Re: if you could rename your club
« on: November 08, 2021, 03:23:33 PM »
Some great names out there, like Fighting Cocks, Lord Edwards, Raperees:

What about:
The Wangers (after the great Crossmaglen)
The Hallions, as in Poyntzpass Hallions


6
GAA Discussion / Re: Congress
« on: October 25, 2021, 05:37:00 PM »
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/promise-to-reform-flawed-option-b-later-not-enough-for-congress-1.4709560

How did the GAA end up rejecting the one vehicle for change on the table?
For a start the body that devised it, the Calendar Fixtures Task Force, had effectively been disbanded and in any case divided over what it wanted. Having started two years ago with two more or less equal proposals, the task force saw motion 18, their Option A - four eight-county, provincial based groups - fall without a word being spoken either for or against.
Lacking a coherent sponsor, the surviving reform lacked energy apart from the campaign mounted by the Gaelic Players Association in more recent weeks.
Yet listening to the debate with its 22 speakers - split 13-9 against the motion - it was impossible not to be struck by how well the proposition was presenting the case. From the start when former president John Horan took to the podium, the advocacy of those supporting change was persuasive.
Horan set out his feelings of disappointment that the Calendar Fixtures Task Force, which he had appointed, had split into camps and addressed perceived issues with the proposal, saying that he didnít, ďthink the financial worry thatís out there for people is what itís portrayed to beĒ.

Thematically the basic argument was made by Cork Central Council delegate Tracey Kennedy. ďFears and concerns about change are absolutely natural but if we look in our hearts nobody can say that the current structure is serving the majority of counties well.Ē

ďOur footballers told us in no uncertain terms that if something doesnít change you wonít see us again. Thatís the reality. They left Castlebar in despair. Talking about crowds attending games, as county secretary I was dealing with ticket allocations for that game. Family members werenít even there to support them. Thatís how lonely it was. Thatís what the current system is providing for the footballers of Leitrim. Itís now time to be brave,Ē - Leitrim secretary Declan Bohan

Because the alternative had major flaws. You can't propose changes and expect people to close their eyes and jump knowing that their is flaws in what your proposing. If it happened in business you'd be shown the door.

Regarding Ulster counties reluctance to change... we have a great championship, why would Ulster counties vote to remove a championship that both fans and players love simply because other provincial championships are failing. Since 2009 - All nine Ulster counties got to a final, 4 counties have won it, and Armagh and Derry seem poised to challenge again in the next couple of years.

It was noticeable that the hurling recommendations kept the Leinster and Munster championships in tact and kept them meaningful.

Also, there a number of changes that were due to come into effect for the 2022 season. Changes that hadn't been implemented yet. It's like a shit show where there seem no logical thinking behind this.

There are two major issues at the moment, Dublin's dominance in Leinster, and Kerry's in Munster and the impact on other counties.

I thought their was a proposal a couple years back to play the championships during the league, so the weaker counties still had something to play for right up to the end of the intercounty season. Did it die a death too? That would have kept all counties playing competitive football up to the end of the season


Unfortunately you are wrong there.  Embarrassingly Armagh haven't contested a final since they won in 2008!

7
GAA Discussion / Re: Congress
« on: October 21, 2021, 07:39:36 PM »
Don't blame them. The most consistent team outside of Dublin in the championship in the last 5-10 years is liable to be excluded from the opportunity to progress to the AIQF because they don't finish in the top 5 of the league. People can dress it up any way they like, but that is the reality. 

Outside of Dublin, Kerry and potentially Tyrone, I don't know why any division 1 team would support it.

8
GAA Discussion / Re: Congress
« on: October 21, 2021, 07:01:08 PM »
Percentage of USFC Games with a winning margin of 10pts or more from 1975 to 2000 was roughly 17%. From 1975 to 1979 the figure was 25%.  Lots of 8 and 9 points beatings on top of that also.  Doesn't mean much. 



9
GAA Discussion / Re: Congress
« on: October 21, 2021, 06:08:29 PM »

Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall

3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10.  #GAA

He's going in the right direction, but...

The top four teams in Division 2 means 2 teams progressing that weren't even able to get out of Division 2.  But, the two teams that were relegated from Division 1, who have played against top class opposition all year, are ruled out.  Usually one team in Division 1 is hopeless, but another might get relegated by the skin of their teeth.  Fourth place in Division 2 is just 2 places off relegation.  In 2016 Fermanagh were 4th in Division 2 on 6 points.  The same year Armagh were relegated on 6 points. 

My point is that finishing 7th in Division 1 may (not always) be a much better performance than finishing 3rd or 4th against weaker opposition in Division 2.

You're right, but I'll argue the toss anyway

Relegation = demotion to Grade 2

The only departure I would like is that Provincial winners should be in the race for Sam, so if you win the Province and finish bottom of D1 then you're relegated to D2 for the following year but in the Sam

If you win the Sam, you're still in D2

Could the imbalance between having 3 or 4 home games be sorted by having a Divisional weekend in Croke

3 home, 3 away, 1 in Croke

4 Div 4 games in Croke one Saturday
4 Div 3 games in Croke the next
4 Div 2 the next
4 Div 1 the next

or something like that, thinking from a marketing and player experience point of view it could work quite well

What kind of numbers would a quadruple header Super Saturday draw per division do you reckon?

Of course it could be split across 2 days, say the Fri/Sat, but feck that, any opportunity to get close to a full house should be explored

Instead of Super 8 your Super Saturday is then getting to a place where players are being treated with a lot more parity of esteem and respect for their efforts

While everyone is putting forward theories none of them are up for review in congress. It's either option A,B or stick with what we have. People may not like option b, but it's an improvement on the current system. I can't see why anyone (other than provincial councils) would want to keep the current system as that's what will happen at the weekend if options and b don't get 60% support.

No one is claiming option b is perfect but for those who don't think it should be passed this weekend might suggest why we should keep things as they are. It'll be at least two years of the current broken system if the current proposals aren't passed.

You are saying let's not make perfect the enemy of good.  It's not as if Option B is good.   
No point going from one broken system to a worse system on the basis that change is necessary, anything is better than what we have.  I do not know how on earth these proposals were arrived at, but it will not fix the problems we have and to put this scutter to congress only wastes an opportunity.

10
GAA Discussion / Re: Congress
« on: October 21, 2021, 05:00:52 PM »
One of the best things about championship is the straight knockout. Proposal B means only 10 teams get to enjoy this. This is not enough. Some teams will get a go in the tier two comp, but the remaining teams will not. All teams should have a knockout chance either for Sam Maguire or the tier two comp. League format will benefit the Counties with a big panel with strength in depth. Mid tier counties who could cause an upset won't get the chance in a one off. Sorry it is a pure effort of an improvement

Agree with this also. 

11
GAA Discussion / Re: Congress
« on: October 21, 2021, 04:51:29 PM »

Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall

3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10.  #GAA

He's going in the right direction, but...

The top four teams in Division 2 means 2 teams progressing that weren't even able to get out of Division 2.  But, the two teams that were relegated from Division 1, who have played against top class opposition all year, are ruled out.  Usually one team in Division 1 is hopeless, but another might get relegated by the skin of their teeth.  Fourth place in Division 2 is just 2 places off relegation.  In 2016 Fermanagh were 4th in Division 2 on 6 points.  The same year Armagh were relegated on 6 points. 

My point is that finishing 7th in Division 1 may (not always) be a much better performance than finishing 3rd or 4th against weaker opposition in Division 2.

You're right, but I'll argue the toss anyway

Relegation = demotion to Grade 2

The only departure I would like is that Provincial winners should be in the race for Sam, so if you win the Province and finish bottom of D1 then you're relegated to D2 for the following year but in the Sam

If you win the Sam, you're still in D2

Could the imbalance between having 3 or 4 home games be sorted by having a Divisional weekend in Croke

3 home, 3 away, 1 in Croke

4 Div 4 games in Croke one Saturday
4 Div 3 games in Croke the next
4 Div 2 the next
4 Div 1 the next

or something like that, thinking from a marketing and player experience point of view it could work quite well

What kind of numbers would a quadruple header Super Saturday draw per division do you reckon?

Of course it could be split across 2 days, say the Fri/Sat, but feck that, any opportunity to get close to a full house should be explored

Instead of Super 8 your Super Saturday is then getting to a place where players are being treated with a lot more parity of esteem and respect for their efforts

Now you're talking!

I could get on board with that.  Ps. on the provincial issue, for those that complain about Kerry and Dublin getting away with a couple of easy games to get into the AIQF; let's face it, 9 years out of 10 they will both be in the top 6 in Division 1. In fact 2008 was the only year in the last 20 that Dublin & Kerry weren't in Division 1.

12
GAA Discussion / Re: Congress
« on: October 21, 2021, 04:01:11 PM »

Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall

3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10.  #GAA

He's going in the right direction, but...

The top four teams in Division 2 means 2 teams progressing that weren't even able to get out of Division 2.  But, the two teams that were relegated from Division 1, who have played against top class opposition all year, are ruled out.  Usually one team in Division 1 is hopeless, but another might get relegated by the skin of their teeth.  Fourth place in Division 2 is just 2 places off relegation.  In 2016 Fermanagh were 4th in Division 2 on 6 points.  The same year Armagh were relegated on 6 points. 

My point is that finishing 7th in Division 1 may (not always) be a much better performance than finishing 3rd or 4th against weaker opposition in Division 2. 

13
GAA Discussion / Re: Congress
« on: October 21, 2021, 02:11:41 PM »
Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:
  • Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
  • Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
  • All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Passionate post though don't agree with much of it

Why reward provincial runners up?

I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2

Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams

Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams

That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.

To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces. 

With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship.  Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.

every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland

Lots of responses here, but no-one has told me why it is a great idea to exclude the 6th placed Division 1 team.

As they're not good enough. Why should a team be rewarded just for avoiding relegation? You'd be playing the league games not decide who gets through but simply just to see who gets relegated. Maybe offer them a play off for the final spot against the Div 2 side if you want but if you can't finish above your rivals in the league why should you deserve a place in knock out stages?

Your response reads like Option B is written in tablets of stone, but it is completely arbitrary.  So only the top 5 are good enough to compete for Sam, but sixth is not.  However, the 3rd placed team in Division 2 (let's say Westmeath) gets into a preliminary quarter final against the Division 3 winner (let's say Louth) to compete for a place in the All Ireland QF.  Whilst a team like Monaghan, who has been competitive in Division 1 and has stayed in it, is dumped out of the competition.  Who has the better chance of being competitive in the Quarter Finals.  A team that has been competitive in Division 1 or one that couldn't even get out of Division 2. 

Edit:  If your objective is to make it to the AIQF, you actually have a better chance if you are in Division 2 than in Division 1.  Division 1 will be dog-eat-dog and Division 2 is a much easier route.  Chances are you'll be hammered when you get there because you've only being playing Division 2 football.

Teams in div 1 have 7 games to finish in the top 5. If they can't do that out of an 8 team league then they don't deserve to go through. You seem to think everyone should compete in the knock out stages. Do you agree with teams being relegated or is that unfair as well? You have to have a cut off point somewhere. If you allowed the top 6 teams to qualify in you'd have people complaining what about the 7th placed side. There is no format that will please everyone, but this is a step in the right direction and a move forward from the current farce.

One of the object of these proposals is to give more games to more teams and to bring some fairness to the championship. While you're obsessed about div 1 teams there are 24 other sides in 3 other divisions, many of whom who've have been screwed over for decades now by the out of date provincial system. These teams deserve a break far more than the elite teams and if they get more out of the new system then that's a good thing

So the third placed team in Division 2 that has played Division 2 opposition throughout the competition is more deserving of a place in the QFs than the 6th placed team in Division 1.  Take 2017 for example.  Tyrone finish in 6th place in Division 1 on 7 points, drawing with Dublin in the process. They are less worthy of progression into the knockout stages than Meath who gained 9 points in Division 2.  Or 2016 when Monaghan finished 6th in Division 1 on 6 points (along with four other teams).  They are less worthy of a place in the knockout stages than Galway who finished 3rd in Division 2 on 7 points. 

If you are looking at Division 1 as the place for rising teams to push on, then you give them the opportunity to play in the knockout stages if they stay in the Division.  A yo yo team is better off in Division 2. 

14
GAA Discussion / Re: Congress
« on: October 21, 2021, 01:23:53 PM »
Wobbler, you have been on this board a long time and I have a lot of time for you, but you are avoiding the question. 

Someone explain to me why the 3rd best team in Division two has a straightforward route to the AIQF (by beating a team in a lower division) and the sixth best team in Division 1, playing against the best teams in the country and has been competitive enough to stay in the division, has no route to qualification


In general:

If the problem that you are trying to solve is the easy route to the business end of the Championship for the top teams in Munster and Leinster, I can see how it does that. 

If you are trying to close they yawning gap between the top 3 or 4 and the rest, then I'm afraid this will only make the gap wider. 

If you are trying to put a stop to Dublin, Kerry and Tyrone doling out hammerings to Wicklows, Waterfords and Antrims, then it will achieve that if you exclude the meaningless pre-season provincial tournaments and anyway, the the strong teams will probably field a second string in these competitions.  However, Option B builds in the guarantee of one sided games at the business end of the championship. Take 2019, you would have had Fermanagh and Westmeath slugging it out in a preliminary round to qualify for an AIQF against Dublin potentially.

If you are trying to do away with the provincial championships, well done.  This achieves just that.  It won't be missed most probably anywhere but Ulster, but then again, most of the delegates voting on this aren't going to prioritise Ulster. 

 

15
GAA Discussion / Re: Congress
« on: October 21, 2021, 12:50:50 PM »
Someone explain to me why the 3rd best team in Division two has a straightforward route to the AIQF (by beating a team in a lower division) and the sixth best team in Division 1, playing against the best teams in the country and has been competitive enough to stay in the division, has no route to qualification. 

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