Mayo v Dublin: AISF21 (Saturday 14th August)

[BennyCake]

G seriously, I remember seeing Jack O'Shea and he was better than Fenton, Don't think he get too much change out of Anthony Tohill either.

Yes I'd agree with that. Jacko and Tohill were far superior

Tohills not even in the argument .only a nordie would think he is
my top 3 would be from my living memory only ,though  I just love the legend of Mick o connell but i only ever saw him play once ,
Jack o shea
Dara o se
Then Fenton - tjhen only Dub toplay close to his abilty yesterday after the 1st half and not a tr**p

The fact that only you brought a partitionist view into it, suggests you're not including Tohill for that very reason.

Tohill was absolute all rounder. Awesome strength, superb fielder, could drive forward, could take scores, and free taker. Jacko, fantastic. Those are the top two.

After that you're looking at Dara O'Se, Michael Murphy (even though he didn't always play at midfield), Liam Hayes and Sean Cavanagh. Fenton is way down that list.

[Cunny Funt]

@MayoBuck Tomás  Ó Sé more often than not gives the kiss of death on whatever team he predicts. As soon as I seen him writing Mayo off the more confident I was of a Mayo win.

[thewobbler]

G seriously, I remember seeing Jack O'Shea and he was better than Fenton, Don't think he get too much change out of Anthony Tohill either.

Yes I'd agree with that. Jacko and Tohill were far superior

Tohills not even in the argument .only a nordie would think he is
my top 3 would be from my living memory only ,though  I just love the legend of Mick o connell but i only ever saw him play once ,
Jack o shea
Dara o se
Then Fenton - tjhen only Dub toplay close to his abilty yesterday after the 1st half and not a tr**p

The fact that only you brought a partitionist view into it, suggests you're not including Tohill for that very reason.

Tohill was absolute all rounder. Awesome strength, superb fielder, could drive forward, could take scores, and free taker. Jacko, fantastic. Those are the top two.

After that you're looking at Dara O'Se, Michael Murphy (even though he didn't always play at midfield), Liam Hayes and Sean Cavanagh. Fenton is way down that list.

Is that the same Darragh O'Se who got cleaned out of sight 3 times by Kevin Hughes in Croke?

People enjoy a strange romanticism about retired players.

[Mayo4Sam14]

Tomás Ó Se had some great lines in his article too...

Same old failing will come back to haunt Mayo in another tilt at the champions

'The Dubs may be vulnerable, but they're also cold-blooded and street-wise. Do you not think Brian Fenton and Con O'Callaghan have it in them to lift their form half a dozen notches now?'

How sobering it is to think that we're now 17 years on from that moment Michael Lyster so famously turned to Colm O'Rourke at half-time in the '04 All-Ireland final and suggested they were "looking at a murder scene".

All bar a single county wanted Mayo to beat us that day, particularly after their final experiences of '89, '96 and '97. Even back then, people were talking of the gap to '51 as some kind of terrible aberration for such a proud football county.

Yet here we are today, that great lake of time now stretching to an ocean of 70 years.

Most neutrals would love to see them reach the mountain-top, but I'd hazard a guess most realists don't see it happening any time soon. Why? Put me down for precisely the same reasons we were so confident against them in '04.

Reasons, I don't doubt, Dublin are putting their faith in today.


I think we all find entertainment in the venom that's still so palpable between these two teams. They don't much like one another, that's crystal clear.

Yes, there's a level of competitive respect there but make no mistake the over-riding feeling between them isn't far off hatred. Now I imagine there'll be plenty of people ready to take offence at that word. I get it. Hatred isn't a good thing. Hatred isn't anything to be encouraged.

But trust me on this. In serious sport, hatred is never far beneath the surface in relationships between fierce rivals. It's an energy source, a power.

Remember the tunnel incident at half-time in last December's All-Ireland final? There were just two points in the game at the time and the Mayo lads clearly took exception to something Philly McMahon said, all hell suddenly breaking loose.

Plenty of people are appalled when they see that kind of stuff but there's not a senior inter-county hurler or footballer in the country who'd be among them. The field is a hot place to be in championship especially and, if a bit of pushing and shoving makes you queasy, it's time to hand back the jersey.




Now I'm only speculating but my take on that was that Philly, a wise old head on his shoulders, reckoned it was time to rattle a few Mayo cages with the game too close for comfort from the Dubs' point of view (they led by two points).


Remember what then happened when the game resumed?

Down to 14 men because of Robbie McDaid's sin-binning, Dublin completely controlled the next quarter.

That was Mayo's moment to put the squeeze on Dublin, but it seemed to me that they just didn't have the know-how. To drive that hammer home, they needed to get scores. But that third quarter was, essentially, when they lost the final.

So the reason I don't see Mayo getting across the line this evening is the same reason they haven't got across the line against Dublin in league or championship since 2012. Namely, they just don't have the scoring power.

If they're relying today on Tommy Conroy and Ryan O'Donoghue to do things that no Mayo men have done against marquee opposition in 20 years, then they might as well be putting their faith in a scratch-card.

That's not meant to be offensive. They're both good players, but this is Dublin. This is the all-too-familiar reality check. Put it this way: Conroy and O'Donoghue both struggled against Galway. A Galway team we now recognise as bang average.

The only reason Mayo won that game was that Galway could not sustain their intensity for 70-odd minutes. But Dublin will. They always do. Dublin's work-rate is never up for debate. Look at the tackles Cormac Costello gets in around his own '45.

I was listening to Andy Moran on a podcast this week and something he said struck me as an unwitting explanation as to why Mayo just can't close this deal. Andy knows his stuff, to be fair, and his view was that Mayo would have to get goals to win this game. I agree totally.

But he then listed six Mayo players he reckoned carried a potential goal threat and the first four he named were two defenders and two midfielders. Think about that. If you're depending on your backs and midfielders to worry Dublin in an attacking sense, you might as well be trying to climb Everest with only a rope. It seems to me that Dublin just need energy right now and the sight of Mayo is going to give it to them.


Yes, there's a perfectly plausible conversation doing the rounds that Mayo might just catch them here. It's plausible because, if anything, the Dubs have looked a little bored so far. Leinster never stretches them and it's clear as day that it's not exactly the most harmonious camp by recent Dublin standards.

The list is long.

McMahon having to miss training because of his work as a performance coach with Bohemians; Kevin McManamon over in Tokyo for nearly a month with the Olympic boxers; Stephen Cluxton still doing his Greta Garbo thing when it's clear Dessie Farrell wants him back; Eric Lowndes leaving the panel in mid-season without as much as a sentence of explanation.

Or even Dean Rock being taken off the last day against Kildare and choosing not to sit with the other players in what looked to me a minor act of petulance.

It all feels or appears to be that bit looser, which might be down to the players as much as the new management.

But can you imagine any of that happening on Jim Gavin's watch? Not a hope. No squad is ever entirely happy because the players not getting game-time will, inevitably, be inclined to bitch. But this feels something deeper than that.


This feels like a process of transition that is hitting trouble.

All of which is why people are giving Mayo such a big shout here. I get that. And let me be clear, I expect Mayo will run them close. They invariably do.

But beat them?

The Dubs may be vulnerable, but they're also cold-blooded and streetwise. Do you not think Brian Fenton and Con O'Callaghan have it in them to lift their form half a dozen notches now as we arrive at the business end of championship? Of course they do. And Mayo know that better than anyone.

I'm assuming they'll put Paddy Durcan on Ciarán Kilkenny and Oisín Mullin on O'Callaghan or maybe vice versa. But Durcan and Mullin were two of the players Andy Moran identified as potential goal threats for Mayo. If they're having to keep tabs on Kilkenny and O'Callaghan?

I can't see it.

What Mayo wouldn't do to have a young Lee Keegan on hand now, the kind of player who could keeps tabs on a superstar like Diarmuid Connolly and still nail 1-2 of his own. That Keegan doesn't exist anymore.


He can't really do both anymore.

I think James Horan has shown a remarkable ability to regenerate this team, so much so it's hard to argue that they're significantly weaker than they were a few years ago.

Yes Cillian O'Connor's absence is being felt, especially from frees. I watched Mayo's first half against Galway again this week and it's fair to say that they were shocking. Just taking stupid options, kicking awful wides, spilling deplorable handpasses and missing the kind of frees O'Connor kicks in his sleep.

With over half an hour of that game gone, Mayo had a miserly 0-4 on the board.

Yes, the second half was a different story with the likes of Matthew Ruane especially thundering into the game. But I don't doubt the Dubs will be giving Brian Fenton earache now about just how well Ruane is playing. That's how this always works.

When we were going so poorly in '09, the only thing my brothers Darragh and Marc kept hearing before our quarter-final against Dublin was how Ciarán Whelan and Bernard Brogan were both flying. Fair to say by the end of that week, the two boys were primed for war. Trust me, that's how Fenton will be feeling this week. He'll be looking at what he considers a pretender to his throne and thinking, 'No, not today buddy!'


Kildare asked nothing of Dublin. They never pressed up on Evan Comerford's kick-outs, which is fine if you've built a lead.

Then – by all means – hold your shape, stay defensively tight. But if you're chasing a game and still refuse to push bodies forward then you're, essentially, just accepting your fate.

Mayo will ask questions. I don't doubt that.

They know just how important Cluxton has been to this Dublin story and will aim to find profit in his absence now.

Across all of the All-Ireland finals Cluxton played for Dublin, you could count on one hand his second-half kick-outs that were lost.

Cluxton's second-half showings in those finals were almost flawless.


Mayo forced him to go long six times in last year's first half and all six failed to end up in Dublin hands. That should have been the foundation stone on which Mayo made a profit. But they couldn't. And come the second half? Every single Cluxton kick was on the money.

It makes sense for Mayo to go after Evan Comerford's kicks this evening. He's a fine goalkeeper, but we can't really say if he's a readymade replacement for the greatest number one of all when he hasn't yet weathered a fraction of Cluxton's wars.

The trouble for Mayo is their scoring purple patches don't tend to come against Dublin or Kerry and, until that changes, they're not getting their hands on Sam. Not a hope.

Mayo greatest strength is their work-rate and they have so many defensive players that we'd love to have in Kerry. But, let's face it, they'd kill for Kerry's six forwards too. And forwards, ultimately, win All-Irelands.

I've massive time for Horan as a manager by the way, but he can only work with the talent at his disposal. And Mayo seem to be regenerating only in the areas they're already strong in. The marquee forward they've craved for a decade now has yet to be unveiled.


Yes, Cillian O'Connor has been an outstanding player, but he's never been the game-changer in a final that the likes of Kilkenny and O'Callaghan have been for Dublin.

Now I hasten to add, that can still be said of David Clifford and Seánie O'Shea in Kerry too. The difference, of course, is that O'Connor has spent a decade trying to get over that line, the Kerry boyos are just starting.

Which is the big problem for Mayo now. In my opinion, they were a trickier opponent back in my day when the likes of Moran and Ciarán McDonald were still playing. They were certainly more unpredictable.

I expect Mayo to try running the legs off Dublin today because, man for man, they just don't have the stuff to outplay them.

People are making an argument for them on the basis that Dublin seem to have regressed spectacularly. I'm more inclined to think they've just been a little distracted until now. But that changes here.


The Dubs may not be what they were, but that doesn't mean they can't make it seven in a row. All that talk of an unhappy camp isn't legal tender until they lose.

They categorically don't like Mayo and rest assured that will give them energy this evening.

An energy I just can't see the Connacht champions overcoming.

" my opinion, they were a trickier opponent back in my day when the likes of Moran and Ciarán McDonald were still playing. They were certainly more unpredictable."

When they were losing finals by 20+ points?

[Armagh18]

Anyone who doesn't think Brian Fenton is up there as one of the best midfielders ever is either clueless or just blindingly anti-Dub.

On another note, any news of McLaughlin? That was some hit he took, hopefully all is ok.

[yellowcard]

G seriously, I remember seeing Jack O'Shea and he was better than Fenton, Don't think he get too much change out of Anthony Tohill either.

Yes I'd agree with that. Jacko and Tohill were far superior

Tohills not even in the argument .only a nordie would think he is
my top 3 would be from my living memory only ,though  I just love the legend of Mick o connell but i only ever saw him play once ,
Jack o shea
Dara o se
Then Fenton - tjhen only Dub toplay close to his abilty yesterday after the 1st half and not a tr**p

Tohill was a better all round footballer than Darragh O'Se in almost all aspects of the game bar his physicality and fielding prowess. In terms of athleticism and skill Tohill was superior not to mention his ability as a free taker. Darragh O'Se was a very good player who played behind a great forward line but I don't think too many would place him above Tohill.

[BennyCake]

G seriously, I remember seeing Jack O'Shea and he was better than Fenton, Don't think he get too much change out of Anthony Tohill either.

Yes I'd agree with that. Jacko and Tohill were far superior

Tohills not even in the argument .only a nordie would think he is
my top 3 would be from my living memory only ,though  I just love the legend of Mick o connell but i only ever saw him play once ,
Jack o shea
Dara o se
Then Fenton - tjhen only Dub toplay close to his abilty yesterday after the 1st half and not a tr**p

The fact that only you brought a partitionist view into it, suggests you're not including Tohill for that very reason.

Tohill was absolute all rounder. Awesome strength, superb fielder, could drive forward, could take scores, and free taker. Jacko, fantastic. Those are the top two.

After that you're looking at Dara O'Se, Michael Murphy (even though he didn't always play at midfield), Liam Hayes and Sean Cavanagh. Fenton is way down that list.

Is that the same Darragh O'Se who got cleaned out of sight 3 times by Kevin Hughes in Croke?

People enjoy a strange romanticism about retired players.

Peter Canavan couldn't get a score off Enda McNulty for years. Does that mean Canavan shouldn't be considered one of the greatest forwards who played the game?

[Mayo4Sam14]

Anyone who doesn't think Brian Fenton is up there as one of the best midfielders ever is either clueless or just blindingly anti-Dub.

On another note, any news of McLaughlin? That was some hit he took, hopefully all is ok.

He absolutely is, 100%

Broken jaw apparently

[thewobbler]

G seriously, I remember seeing Jack O'Shea and he was better than Fenton, Don't think he get too much change out of Anthony Tohill either.

Yes I'd agree with that. Jacko and Tohill were far superior

Tohills not even in the argument .only a nordie would think he is
my top 3 would be from my living memory only ,though  I just love the legend of Mick o connell but i only ever saw him play once ,
Jack o shea
Dara o se
Then Fenton - tjhen only Dub toplay close to his abilty yesterday after the 1st half and not a tr**p

The fact that only you brought a partitionist view into it, suggests you're not including Tohill for that very reason.

Tohill was absolute all rounder. Awesome strength, superb fielder, could drive forward, could take scores, and free taker. Jacko, fantastic. Those are the top two.

After that you're looking at Dara O'Se, Michael Murphy (even though he didn't always play at midfield), Liam Hayes and Sean Cavanagh. Fenton is way down that list.

Is that the same Darragh O'Se who got cleaned out of sight 3 times by Kevin Hughes in Croke?

People enjoy a strange romanticism about retired players.

Peter Canavan couldn't get a score off Enda McNulty for years. Does that mean Canavan shouldn't be considered one of the greatest forwards who played the game?

No, that's not a fair comparator. In almost every major Tyrone game of the 90s and 00s, Canavan was a hugely influential figure.

Whereas when Kerry had it put up to them during that time, Darragh O'Se usually went missing.

O'Se was a Rolls Royce of a footballer. So elegant. But there wasn't one aspect of his game was superior to Fenton.

[yellowcard]

G seriously, I remember seeing Jack O'Shea and he was better than Fenton, Don't think he get too much change out of Anthony Tohill either.

Yes I'd agree with that. Jacko and Tohill were far superior

Tohills not even in the argument .only a nordie would think he is
my top 3 would be from my living memory only ,though  I just love the legend of Mick o connell but i only ever saw him play once ,
Jack o shea
Dara o se
Then Fenton - tjhen only Dub toplay close to his abilty yesterday after the 1st half and not a tr**p

The fact that only you brought a partitionist view into it, suggests you're not including Tohill for that very reason.

Tohill was absolute all rounder. Awesome strength, superb fielder, could drive forward, could take scores, and free taker. Jacko, fantastic. Those are the top two.

After that you're looking at Dara O'Se, Michael Murphy (even though he didn't always play at midfield), Liam Hayes and Sean Cavanagh. Fenton is way down that list.

Is that the same Darragh O'Se who got cleaned out of sight 3 times by Kevin Hughes in Croke?

People enjoy a strange romanticism about retired players.

Peter Canavan couldn't get a score off Enda McNulty for years. Does that mean Canavan shouldn't be considered one of the greatest forwards who played the game?

Canavan's peak was mid to late 90's but he was still one of the top forwards of all time nobody would argue that point. It's nonsensical to pick out a few games over a players entire career and use that as a metric of their ability. Your opinion on Fenton is just blatantly anti Dub.

[6th sam]

G seriously, I remember seeing Jack O'Shea and he was better than Fenton, Don't think he get too much change out of Anthony Tohill either.

Yes I'd agree with that. Jacko and Tohill were far superior

Tohills not even in the argument .only a nordie would think he is
my top 3 would be from my living memory only ,though  I just love the legend of Mick o connell but i only ever saw him play once ,
Jack o shea
Dara o se
Then Fenton - tjhen only Dub toplay close to his abilty yesterday after the 1st half and not a tr**p

The fact that only you brought a partitionist view into it, suggests you're not including Tohill for that very reason.

Tohill was absolute all rounder. Awesome strength, superb fielder, could drive forward, could take scores, and free taker. Jacko, fantastic. Those are the top two.

After that you're looking at Dara O'Se, Michael Murphy (even though he didn't always play at midfield), Liam Hayes and Sean Cavanagh. Fenton is way down that list.

Is that the same Darragh O'Se who got cleaned out of sight 3 times by Kevin Hughes in Croke?

People enjoy a strange romanticism about retired players.

Peter Canavan couldn't get a score off Enda McNulty for years. Does that mean Canavan shouldn't be considered one of the greatest forwards who played the game?

No, that's not a fair comparator. In almost every major Tyrone game of the 90s and 00s, Canavan was a hugely influential figure.

Whereas when Kerry had it put up to them during that time, Darragh O'Se usually went missing.

O'Se was a Rolls Royce of a footballer. So elegant. But there wasn't one aspect of his game was superior to Fenton.

Would agree . Though it's impossible to compare different eras . Tohill was absolutely brilliant. Fenton and Jacko is in same mould . Darragh o'sé isn't in that league

[Armagh18]

Anyone who doesn't think Brian Fenton is up there as one of the best midfielders ever is either clueless or just blindingly anti-Dub.

On another note, any news of McLaughlin? That was some hit he took, hopefully all is ok.

He absolutely is, 100%

Broken jaw apparently

FFS. Ye are having no luck this year. Hopefully Mullin is back for final.

[RedHand88]

Anyone who doesn't think Brian Fenton is up there as one of the best midfielders ever is either clueless or just blindingly anti-Dub.

On another note, any news of McLaughlin? That was some hit he took, hopefully all is ok.

He absolutely is, 100%

Broken jaw apparently

FFS. Ye are having no luck this year. Hopefully Mullin is back for final.

Bad luck is nothing to do with it. It was a dirty dirty act.

[Sportacus]

Ach I really hope he's ok for the final and it's not a broken jaw.  How the ref let play continue I do not know.
I remember Dublin emptying Peter Crowley with a late hit in the last play of the semi-final a few years ago and the ref ignored it that day as well and it swung the game. 
Yesterday was ridiculous, the ref actually kept looking back, it was clear McLaughlin hit the ground like a sack of spuds, but he let Dublin if for a goal chance anyway.

[The Hill is Blue]

Well done Mayo.

You have been in lockstep with Dublin over the last ten glorious years and have never let us out of your sights. It's appropriate that you are the ones who were there the day the music died. It was a tough game with neither side holding back but I'm sure that's the way Mayo would want it – a victory handed to them on a plate would be no use to them. I believe all Dublin supporters will be wishing you all the best in the Final.

As a Dublin fan the last ten years have been a golden era which back in the early 2000s none of us would ever have foreseen. We were blessed to be able to follow the best Gaelic football team that ever was or probably ever will be. The scale of Dublin's achievement can be appreciated by considering that Mayo's stunning performance last night would have to be replicated in almost every significant game between now and 2030.