Tyrone v Kerry - All-Ireland SF 2021

Started by RedHand88, July 31, 2021, 05:56:14 PM

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Who will win?

Tyrone by 1-3
Tyrone by 4+
Kerry by 1-3
Kerry by 4+

Armagh18

Quote from: clarshack on September 12, 2021, 04:17:30 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on September 12, 2021, 03:13:40 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on September 12, 2021, 01:41:49 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on September 12, 2021, 01:15:28 PM
Derry Armagh and tbh probably Donegal too probably a good bit from that kind of level. Monaghan closer but still think they are a good bit off the ai.

It will be really interesting to see whatever sting there is in Dublin next year. Kerry too.

Derry and Armagh aren't in the same bracket as Monaghan or Donegal.
Donegal scraped past Derry by a point and Monaghan beat an Armagh team that conceded 4 goals without their first choice keeper or best defender. I really don't think there's a million miles between any of the top 5 teams in Ulster at the minute. Tyrone could have very easily lost to Donegal or Monaghan.

Tyrone will be better next season so the other Ulster teams will have to improve even more if they want to beat us.
They definitely will. A fully fit McShane for the whole year and Canavan another year older and fully fit. Plus much more to come from McKenna. They'll be some team with a proper preseason.

trueblue1234

Quote from: sid waddell on September 12, 2021, 08:48:28 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on September 12, 2021, 08:34:57 PM
I think that only in time will we be able to properly judge the merit of this Tyrone side. At the start of the season I would have placed Donegal ahead of them and had them down in 5th nationally. The reality is that Donegal have regressed in the last 2 seasons but they have enough good players to reverse the slide. I would have doubts about their mental fortitude though as they seem to lack leaders outside of Murphy. Armagh would need to find a few decent defenders to get to the next level and win an ulster championship whilst Monaghan will still be hard to beat but I can't see much scope for improvement with a few of their key players getting on in years. Derry may be a few years away from winning at provincial level but Gallagher has got them organised and they are on an upward curve.
It's a poor era for management.

Of the top five contenders, Dublin, Donegal and Kerry all have average managers. Only Kerry look like they might make a change for next year. If they get a good manager in charge, it's lights out for everybody else.

Tyrone and Mayo currently have the two best management teams of the top contenders. Horan is a very good manager on the whole but he has blind spots, and they were exposed yesterday.

This myth that Kerry have some fantastic squad that is heads and shoulders above anyone else is just hyperbole. I'd fear the Dubs much more than Kerry next year.
Grammar: the difference between knowing your shit

yellowcard

Quote from: sid waddell on September 12, 2021, 08:48:28 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on September 12, 2021, 08:34:57 PM
I think that only in time will we be able to properly judge the merit of this Tyrone side. At the start of the season I would have placed Donegal ahead of them and had them down in 5th nationally. The reality is that Donegal have regressed in the last 2 seasons but they have enough good players to reverse the slide. I would have doubts about their mental fortitude though as they seem to lack leaders outside of Murphy. Armagh would need to find a few decent defenders to get to the next level and win an ulster championship whilst Monaghan will still be hard to beat but I can't see much scope for improvement with a few of their key players getting on in years. Derry may be a few years away from winning at provincial level but Gallagher has got them organised and they are on an upward curve.
It's a poor era for management.

Of the top five contenders, Dublin, Donegal and Kerry all have average managers. Only Kerry look like they might make a change for next year. If they get a good manager in charge, it's lights out for everybody else.

Tyrone and Mayo currently have the two best management teams of the top contenders. Horan is a very good manager on the whole but he has blind spots, and they were exposed yesterday.

The jury is still out on how good Kerry are, I think some revisionism might be needed there also. Yes they have 2 Clifford's and O'Shea who are excellent but on the whole they have not lived up to the hype. If Tyrone played them again I would fancy Tyrone to beat them. But time will tell, it will all become much clearer with a full playing season next year.

sid waddell

Quote from: yellowcard on September 12, 2021, 08:54:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 12, 2021, 08:48:28 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on September 12, 2021, 08:34:57 PM
I think that only in time will we be able to properly judge the merit of this Tyrone side. At the start of the season I would have placed Donegal ahead of them and had them down in 5th nationally. The reality is that Donegal have regressed in the last 2 seasons but they have enough good players to reverse the slide. I would have doubts about their mental fortitude though as they seem to lack leaders outside of Murphy. Armagh would need to find a few decent defenders to get to the next level and win an ulster championship whilst Monaghan will still be hard to beat but I can't see much scope for improvement with a few of their key players getting on in years. Derry may be a few years away from winning at provincial level but Gallagher has got them organised and they are on an upward curve.
It's a poor era for management.

Of the top five contenders, Dublin, Donegal and Kerry all have average managers. Only Kerry look like they might make a change for next year. If they get a good manager in charge, it's lights out for everybody else.

Tyrone and Mayo currently have the two best management teams of the top contenders. Horan is a very good manager on the whole but he has blind spots, and they were exposed yesterday.

The jury is still out on how good Kerry are, I think some revisionism might be needed there also. Yes they have 2 Clifford's and O'Shea who are excellent but on the whole they have not lived up to the hype. If Tyrone played them again I would fancy Tyrone to beat them. But time will tell, it will all become much clearer with a full playing season next year.
Kerry were called soft in the 2001-2003 period. They went on to reach the next six finals in a row and won four of them. I could see them doing similar over the coming years if they get the right man in charge.

Rossfan

With all teams having the same amount of training next year will be interesting whatever the format.
Special Congress put back to October.
I fear it will be a case of Dublin getting their house back in order and Kerry with a new manager or management team with better fitness etc will retake the top 2 positions :-\
Sadly not much sign of anyone outside the big 4 in the running for Sam.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

imtommygunn

Would agree with that. Hard to see Galway breaking in. Also hard to know where yesterday puts Mayo. That is a serious Tyrone defense so Dublin or Kerry probably need to step it up too. Be interesting to see if Tyrone get better with canavan,McKenna etc getting more experience.

yellowcard

Quote from: sid waddell on September 12, 2021, 08:59:34 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on September 12, 2021, 08:54:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 12, 2021, 08:48:28 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on September 12, 2021, 08:34:57 PM
I think that only in time will we be able to properly judge the merit of this Tyrone side. At the start of the season I would have placed Donegal ahead of them and had them down in 5th nationally. The reality is that Donegal have regressed in the last 2 seasons but they have enough good players to reverse the slide. I would have doubts about their mental fortitude though as they seem to lack leaders outside of Murphy. Armagh would need to find a few decent defenders to get to the next level and win an ulster championship whilst Monaghan will still be hard to beat but I can't see much scope for improvement with a few of their key players getting on in years. Derry may be a few years away from winning at provincial level but Gallagher has got them organised and they are on an upward curve.
It's a poor era for management.

Of the top five contenders, Dublin, Donegal and Kerry all have average managers. Only Kerry look like they might make a change for next year. If they get a good manager in charge, it's lights out for everybody else.

Tyrone and Mayo currently have the two best management teams of the top contenders. Horan is a very good manager on the whole but he has blind spots, and they were exposed yesterday.

The jury is still out on how good Kerry are, I think some revisionism might be needed there also. Yes they have 2 Clifford's and O'Shea who are excellent but on the whole they have not lived up to the hype. If Tyrone played them again I would fancy Tyrone to beat them. But time will tell, it will all become much clearer with a full playing season next year.
Kerry were called soft in the 2001-2003 period. They went on to reach the next six finals in a row and won four of them. I could see them doing similar over the coming years if they get the right man in charge.

I just don't get on what basis you can make that assertion. I do think Dublin have a lean period ahead for the next few years and there will be opportunities for other counties one of which will be Kerry. But a few hammerings dishes out in the League is not a pre requisite for stating that a team will win multiple All Ireland's. That 2001-03 Kerry side was definitely not soft, they had plenty of dogs of war and the current Kerry side is currently well short of that team.


StPatsAbu

Quote from: yellowcard on September 12, 2021, 09:37:48 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 12, 2021, 08:59:34 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on September 12, 2021, 08:54:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 12, 2021, 08:48:28 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on September 12, 2021, 08:34:57 PM
I think that only in time will we be able to properly judge the merit of this Tyrone side. At the start of the season I would have placed Donegal ahead of them and had them down in 5th nationally. The reality is that Donegal have regressed in the last 2 seasons but they have enough good players to reverse the slide. I would have doubts about their mental fortitude though as they seem to lack leaders outside of Murphy. Armagh would need to find a few decent defenders to get to the next level and win an ulster championship whilst Monaghan will still be hard to beat but I can't see much scope for improvement with a few of their key players getting on in years. Derry may be a few years away from winning at provincial level but Gallagher has got them organised and they are on an upward curve.
It's a poor era for management.

Of the top five contenders, Dublin, Donegal and Kerry all have average managers. Only Kerry look like they might make a change for next year. If they get a good manager in charge, it's lights out for everybody else.

Tyrone and Mayo currently have the two best management teams of the top contenders. Horan is a very good manager on the whole but he has blind spots, and they were exposed yesterday.

The jury is still out on how good Kerry are, I think some revisionism might be needed there also. Yes they have 2 Clifford's and O'Shea who are excellent but on the whole they have not lived up to the hype. If Tyrone played them again I would fancy Tyrone to beat them. But time will tell, it will all become much clearer with a full playing season next year.
Kerry were called soft in the 2001-2003 period. They went on to reach the next six finals in a row and won four of them. I could see them doing similar over the coming years if they get the right man in charge.

I just don't get on what basis you can make that assertion. I do think Dublin have a lean period ahead for the next few years and there will be opportunities for other counties one of which will be Kerry. But a few hammerings dishes out in the League is not a pre requisite for stating that a team will win multiple All Ireland's. That 2001-03 Kerry side was definitely not soft, they had plenty of dogs of war and the current Kerry side is currently well short of that team.

Aye but they only have to play a couple of hurling teams to get to the AI semis...

Hound

PP have priced up 2022:

Dublin 11/8
Kerry 6/4
Tyrone 9/1
Mayo 9/1
Donegal 16/1
Galway 20/1
Monaghan 66/1
Armagh 66/1
The rest 80/1+

Dubs and Kerry within a whisker of being joint favs. Tyrone very long odds for defending champs.

Armagh18

Quote from: Rossfan on September 12, 2021, 09:15:19 PM
With all teams having the same amount of training next year will be interesting whatever the format.
Special Congress put back to October.
I fear it will be a case of Dublin getting their house back in order and Kerry with a new manager or management team with better fitness etc will retake the top 2 positions :-\
Sadly not much sign of anyone outside the big 4 in the running for Sam.
I'd say Mayos win over Dublin and Tyrones 2 big wins there will light a fire under the arse of the likes of Galway, Meath, Kildare and the stronger teams Ulster teams. Mayo showed the Dubs aren't invincible so maybe a couple of teams in Leinster might turn up against them next year. All of the Ulster teams would fancy themselves to at least run Tyrone close. Would be great to one of those 7 or 8 lower division 1/ higher division 2 teams get a run to a semi or a final.

blanketattack

#1360
Quote from: Hound on September 13, 2021, 07:21:15 AM
PP have priced up 2022:

Dublin 11/8
Kerry 6/4
Tyrone 9/1
Mayo 9/1
Donegal 16/1
Galway 20/1
Monaghan 66/1
Armagh 66/1
The rest 80/1+

Dubs and Kerry within a whisker of being joint favs. Tyrone very long odds for defending champs.

Great value on Tyrone. Those odds are probably based on the old system where they've Ulster and/or qualifier or Super 8 system to navigate while the proposal for next season might put them in an 8 team league and so should be pretty much equal odds as Kerry and close enough to Dublin, who's odds could go way in if McCaffry, Mannion and Cluxton return or go out if those 3 stay gone and McCarthy, Cooper, Fitzsimons and Rock retire.

Paradoxically, if the league type system is brought in, Kerry's odds will lengthen, but I think they'll have a much better chance of winning the All-Ireland.

clarshack

#1361
Quote from: yellowcard on September 12, 2021, 08:34:57 PM
I think that only in time will we be able to properly judge the merit of this Tyrone side. At the start of the season I would have placed Donegal ahead of them and had them down in 5th nationally. The reality is that Donegal have regressed in the last 2 seasons but they have enough good players to reverse the slide. I would have doubts about their mental fortitude though as they seem to lack leaders outside of Murphy. Armagh would need to find a few decent defenders to get to the next level and win an ulster championship whilst Monaghan will still be hard to beat but I can't see much scope for improvement with a few of their key players getting on in years. Derry may be a few years away from winning at provincial level but Gallagher has got them organised and they are on an upward curve.

Donegal are a myth as well. It's 7 years since they even played in an All-Ireland semi-final or final, in that time Tyrone have played in 2 finals and 5 semi-finals.

yellowcard

Quote from: clarshack on September 15, 2021, 12:25:11 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on September 12, 2021, 08:34:57 PM
I think that only in time will we be able to properly judge the merit of this Tyrone side. At the start of the season I would have placed Donegal ahead of them and had them down in 5th nationally. The reality is that Donegal have regressed in the last 2 seasons but they have enough good players to reverse the slide. I would have doubts about their mental fortitude though as they seem to lack leaders outside of Murphy. Armagh would need to find a few decent defenders to get to the next level and win an ulster championship whilst Monaghan will still be hard to beat but I can't see much scope for improvement with a few of their key players getting on in years. Derry may be a few years away from winning at provincial level but Gallagher has got them organised and they are on an upward curve.

Donegal are a myth as well. It's 7 years since they even played in an All-Ireland semi-final or final, in that time Tyrone have played in 2 finals and 5 semi-finals.

I presume that you chose to go back 7 years with statistics to suit your argument. But what happened more than 3-4 years ago has limited relevance to the current side. Tyrone have taken a huge leap forward this year but 10 months ago they were being beaten by Donegal in the Ulster championship and the majority of people would have placed them ahead of Tyrone. So they have showed what is possible.

I think Donegal have a lot of very talented players very similar to Tyrone but there are doubts over their defence and their mental toughness in the big games. They are still relying on a 35 year old Neil Magee and a 32 year old Michael Murphy to provide leadership and neither of those will be getting any better. Doubts surfaced about them after losing the Ulster final to Cavan and they have not disappeared since. 

tyrone08

Quote from: clarshack on September 15, 2021, 12:25:11 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on September 12, 2021, 08:34:57 PM
I think that only in time will we be able to properly judge the merit of this Tyrone side. At the start of the season I would have placed Donegal ahead of them and had them down in 5th nationally. The reality is that Donegal have regressed in the last 2 seasons but they have enough good players to reverse the slide. I would have doubts about their mental fortitude though as they seem to lack leaders outside of Murphy. Armagh would need to find a few decent defenders to get to the next level and win an ulster championship whilst Monaghan will still be hard to beat but I can't see much scope for improvement with a few of their key players getting on in years. Derry may be a few years away from winning at provincial level but Gallagher has got them organised and they are on an upward curve.

Donegal are a myth as well. It's 7 years since they even played in an All-Ireland semi-final or final, in that time Tyrone have played in 2 finals and 5 semi-finals.

I agree. Years of hype that dongel could beat Dublin but have never made a semi final since 2014. Donegal had the beating of tyrone on many occasion but tyrone always outlasted them and regularly got into semi finals.

imtommygunn

There is at the minute IMO. That Cavan beating would never have happened Tyrone. Donegal are over rated at the minute. No offense to Bonnar but I think they needed to change to progress. Take murphy out and that is a big leveller for them too.