Most "came out of nowhere" All-Ireland champions?

[eireogatron]

what have Down and Derry won over the last 10 odd years at SENIOR INTER COUNTY LEVEL having boasted plenty of underage all irelands and Ulster titles, added to numerous provincial club titles and an AI success?

you are using certain teams winning things to back up your argument when you could also argue the exact opposite, using the same parameters with other counties.

Armagh have no all irelands since 2002 yet Cross have dominated and won 2 All Irelands, got to the final of the other and the U-21s won the AI in 2004.
As another poster mentioned - Laois where is their success? Galway are another who have done nothing to back up significant underage and club success post 2001. Dublin have won club and u-21 titles yet haven't gotten within a hounds gowl of an All Ireland for 14 years. Mayo, although having contested a couple of AI finals recently got stuffed when it came to the crunch and their team boasted a host of underage and club AI champions, the same is typical of Cork.

How easy is it to put your own slant on the facts Dung, I mean, Drung?

[GalwayBayBoy]

Came from nowhere in that while some might have thought they had a decent chance of beating Mayo and thus Connacht I don't think they were spoken off as potential All-Ireland winners by anyone. Even after winning Connacht they were underdogs against an aging Derry team in the semis and underdogs again against Micko's Kildare in the final. While the young guys like PJ and Donnellan were considered talents at the beginning of 98 I don't think many people expected them to turn out to be as good as they actually were especially so soon. It's not like they had won a minor or U-21 All-Ireland because they hadn't.

I guess coming from nowhere means a team winning the AI that nobody realistically had down as genuine contenders at the start of the championship. I don't think that Galway team were considered potential AI winners early in the year. In hindsight it's easy to look back on the names on the teamsheet and say how could they not be contenders but I imagine they were well down the list in May 98.

This is not true. I remember many Galway people feeling that Galway could go all the way that year if they beat Mayo in the first round. Remember how Galway's support suddenly grew for that year compared with previous years. I just dont think they should be considered as a "come from nowhere team" when they were so close to beating Mayo the previous year and some of the players who were involved in the 95 AI semi final were still involved. They also had a very impressive league in 98, losing to Offaly but as far as I remember, some of the forwards had a real bad day that day and we kicked the game away

To me , a "Come from nowehere" team would be one that has shown no form in the previous 4-5 years and then finds form in this champioship.

What bit is untrue? That they were underdogs in every game apart from the Roscommon ones? A couple of Galway people you knew that fancied their chances doesn't really provide an accurate reading of where they were at the beginning of that championship. I could probably find twice as many Galway people who thought they would lose up in Castlebar first day out. I was there that day and while there was a big Galway support there (due to the new look team) they were also up against a Mayo team who had contested the last two AI finals and the game was also on their home turf. Having given Mayo a decent game in 97 hardly made Galway genuine AI contenders in 98 because I can assure you virtually nobody had Galway down as AI winners that year apart from maybe a few optimistic Galway supporters. If that doesn't count as coming from nowhere then I don't know what does? Galway had shown very little form in the previous years in reality. They had only won one Connacht title in the previous 10 years at a time when Connacht teams were often getting hammered up in Dublin. In fairness the one title they did win in 1995 they managed to give Tyrone a decent game in the semis but they still lost.

The 98 team was a mixture of the left overs of that 95 team and a group of raw youngsters out of St Jarlath's but nobody realistically had them down to win the lot in early May 98.

[BallyhaiseMan]

To be fair i see  where Drung is coming from,
A True come from nowhere story which already has been mentioned is Clare in 95,
No form,No Success at underage,No Success at any level,Nobody thought they had a hope.


That Down Team of 91, were a supremely talented bunch who won medals at every level, up to senior Intercounty,It cant be a came out of nowhere story because with their success at underage level,there was a certain level of expectation even if it were not supremely high before the Championship in 91.


Looking at This years Championship teams could be thrown into

Expected to contend

Kerry
Tyrone
Galway
Dublin
Armagh
Cork
Derry

Unlikely to win,But it wouldnt be a complete shock
Donegal
Monaghan
Mayo
Kildare
Down

Very Unlikely to win,But have performed well enough to be considered greater contenders than the below group.

Wexford(On Last years championship performances)
Fermanagh
Laois
Tipperary(on this years league performances)
Westmeath
Meath

Definite came out of nowhere material
Cavan
Louth
Rosscommon
Offaly
Longford
Antrim
Limerick
Sligo
Leitrim

"Ultimate" came out of nowhere scenario
London
Waterford
Carlow
Clare
Wicklow
New York

[Zulu]

Expected to contend

Kerry
Tyrone
Galway
Dublin
Armagh
Cork
Derry

Unlikely to win,But it wouldnt be a complete shock
Donegal
Monaghan
Mayo
Kildare
Down

Jaysus BM, Armagh as 'expected to contend' and Down as 'wouldn't be a complete shock, that's the same Down team hammered by Wexford last year and beaten by Tipp in the D3 final? Down have no more a chance of winning the All Ireland than Waterford (not saying they are the same standard btw) but they are nowhere near as good as the other teams in your 'not a complete shock' group. Likewise Armagh, at best they are in that group instead of Down but not any higher.

[Drung]

Armagh have no all irelands since 2002 yet Cross have dominated and won 2 All Irelands, got to the final of the other and the U-21s won the AI in 2004.
As another poster mentioned - Laois where is their success? Galway are another who have done nothing to back up significant underage and club success post 2001. Dublin have won club and u-21 titles yet haven't gotten within a hounds gowl of an All Ireland for 14 years. Mayo, although having contested a couple of AI finals recently got stuffed when it came to the crunch and their team boasted a host of underage and club AI champions, the same is typical of Cork.

All of what you say is true, but the diference now and when Galway, Down, Meath, Armagh broke through was that two of the greatest ever teams are around at the moment - Kerry and Tyrone - and they have won the last six All Irelands between them.
Making an All Ireland final, or just beating one of them is an achievement in my opinion.
Mayo have done, Down have done, Derry have done it, Cork have done it. Not bad going in my opinion.
Just repond with an opinion, don't attack the person you disagree with.
I like this thread.

[cadhlancian]

I know it is not county but there is a club team Moortown in Tyrone lost the semi-final of the senior championhsip by 21 to one in 1991. They were played off the park absolutely by Coalisland Fianna. Clonoe beat Coalisland in the final and the next year Moortown won the championship beating Clonoe along the way. They haven't won it since.

fox, I was at it,, but u fail to mention that this was a highly touted Moortown team, who were very young at the time, and to be honest, just froze on the night, also the island were going for 3 county titles on the bounce....point is,,,,,,,,,,,moortown DID NOT come out of nowhere to win!

[blanketattack]

Unlikely to win,But it wouldnt be a complete shock
Donegal
Monaghan
Mayo
Kildare
Down

Most of these would fit firmly in the "came out of nowhere" All-Irelands.
E.g. Monaghan, No All-Irelands at senior, u21, minor or club level. No league title since '85. No Ulster title since '88. Haven't got further than the 1/4 finals since the qualifiers.

[Bogball XV]

Unlikely to win,But it wouldnt be a complete shock
Donegal
Monaghan
Mayo
Kildare
Down

Most of these would fit firmly in the "came out of nowhere" All-Irelands.
E.g. Monaghan, No All-Irelands at senior, u21, minor or club level. No league title since '85. No Ulster title since '88. Haven't got further than the 1/4 finals since the qualifiers.

Monaghan whilst not being expected to win, would not be 'out of nowhere', they've gave Kerry their toughest game in 07 (and should have won) and again in 08 they gave Kerry a tough game - if they'd been luckier draw wise who knows where they could have ended up either year?

[Farrandeelin]

To be fair i see  where Drung is coming from,
A True come from nowhere story which already has been mentioned is Clare in 95,
No form,No Success at underage,No Success at any level,Nobody thought they had a hope.


That Down Team of 91, were a supremely talented bunch who won medals at every level, up to senior Intercounty,It cant be a came out of nowhere story because with their success at underage level,there was a certain level of expectation even if it were not supremely high before the Championship in 91.


Looking at This years Championship teams could be thrown into

Expected to contend

Kerry
Tyrone
Galway
Dublin
Armagh
Cork
Derry

Unlikely to win,But it wouldnt be a complete shock
Donegal
Monaghan
Mayo
Kildare
Down

Very Unlikely to win,But have performed well enough to be considered greater contenders than the below group.

Wexford(On Last years championship performances)
Fermanagh
Laois
Tipperary(on this years league performances)
Westmeath
Meath

Definite came out of nowhere material
Cavan
Louth
Rosscommon
Offaly
Longford
Antrim
Limerick
Sligo
Leitrim

"Ultimate" came out of nowhere scenario
London
Waterford
Carlow
Clare
Wicklow
New York

Mayo winning would be a shock for me! Suppose if we had won it in 1996, it would have been another 'come out of nowhere' team. Sadly Meath won Same applies in 1989, and in 2004. We always seem to 'come out of nowhere' but don't finish the job. Seen as it's seven years between 1989 and 1996, by my reckoning it will be 2013 before we get to a final again. 

[Tim Buzaglo]

I don't think Down 91 came out of nowhere but i don't think all the scenarios that have been wheeled out are required to win the thing.
The Down 91 team was a tremendous outfit - I reckon they were in the bookies top 3 before that championship.
Donegals was slightly more of a shock as they weren't a particularly high profile outfit (although bursting with talent).
Derrys victory was not a shock (we were a short price with the bookies from 92 through to 2000 - I don't know why!!)

If anything i found Downs second victory to be the most surprising of the lot.

As for since then, Glaway really shocked me in 98, didn't see it coming at all.  Tyrone last year as well - 30-1 after the down game

[mouview]

Came from nowhere in that while some might have thought they had a decent chance of beating Mayo and thus Connacht I don't think they were spoken off as potential All-Ireland winners by anyone. Even after winning Connacht they were underdogs against an aging Derry team in the semis and underdogs again against Micko's Kildare in the final. While the young guys like PJ and Donnellan were considered talents at the beginning of 98 I don't think many people expected them to turn out to be as good as they actually were especially so soon. It's not like they had won a minor or U-21 All-Ireland because they hadn't.

I guess coming from nowhere means a team winning the AI that nobody realistically had down as genuine contenders at the start of the championship. I don't think that Galway team were considered potential AI winners early in the year. In hindsight it's easy to look back on the names on the teamsheet and say how could they not be contenders but I imagine they were well down the list in May 98.

This is not true. I remember many Galway people feeling that Galway could go all the way that year if they beat Mayo in the first round. Remember how Galway's support suddenly grew for that year compared with previous years. I just dont think they should be considered as a "come from nowhere team" when they were so close to
beating Mayo the previous year and some of the players who were involved in the 95 AI semi final were still involved. They also had a very impressive league in 98, losing to Offaly but as far as I remember, some of the forwards had a real bad day that day and we kicked the game away

To me , a "Come from nowehere" team would be one that has shown no form in the previous 4-5 years and then finds form in this champioship.

What bit is untrue? That they were underdogs in every game apart from the Roscommon ones? A couple of Galway people you knew that fancied their chances doesn't really provide an accurate reading of where they were at the beginning of that championship. I could probably find twice as many Galway people who thought they would lose up in Castlebar first day out. I was there that day and while there was a big Galway support there (due to the new look team) they were also up against a Mayo team who had contested the last two AI finals and the game was also on their home turf. Having given Mayo a decent game in 97 hardly made Galway genuine AI contenders in 98 because I can assure you virtually nobody had Galway down as AI winners that year apart from maybe a few optimistic Galway supporters. If that doesn't count as coming from nowhere then I don't know what does? Galway had shown very little form in the previous years in reality. They had only won one Connacht title in the previous 10 years at a time when Connacht teams were often getting hammered up in Dublin. In fairness the one title they did win in 1995 they managed to give Tyrone a decent game in the semis but they still lost.

The 98 team was a mixture of the left overs of that 95 team and a group of raw youngsters out of St Jarlath's but nobody realistically had them down to win the lot in early May 98.

Don't necessarily agree GBB. A lot of people within the county in '97 knew Galway were starting to build again, the terrific c'ship match with Mayo in Tuam confirmed that. We also had a good run in the league in '98 before going down to Offaly in the 1/4 final - a game notable for the absence of Ja Fallon and Tomas Mannion. When those two (and what a pair they were!) made themselves available for the c'ship it boosted Galway's chances no end. We (or at least I) travelled to Castlebar at the end of May in optimistic mood; thereafter a larger crowd started to row in behind the team, confirmed by the big attendance in Carrick where we demolished Leitrim. Perhaps the biggest surprise that year was our ordinary performance in Tuam v. a strong though limited enough Ros'; we were lucky to get a draw and had to work like hell in the replay but those 2 games really made the side that year. Derry and Kidare just didn't have the football to live with us after that. I've said it often before; that team was a wonderful confluence of a few of experienced players (Walsh, Mannion, McNamara), very good current ones (Fallon, De Paor, Finnegan) and would-be great newcomers (Joyce, Donnellan) - a perfect storm of Galway football!! In summary, '98 was brilliant but not a huge surprise to a lot of knowledgeable observers in Galway.

More surprising wins IMHO were Derry and in particular Donegal who won without having any great (important) tradition to lean on. This undoubtedly helped Down in '91 and '94.

[ardmhachaabu]

Tyrone last year

[milltown row]

Offaly winning the hurling final in 98 against Kilkenny. was at the match and wont forget that one in a hurry

[Bogball XV]

More surprising wins IMHO were Derry and in particular Donegal who won without having any great (important) tradition to lean on. This undoubtedly helped Down in '91 and '94.

Whatever you say Galway did come from nowhere in the minds of people outside Galway.

From my own pov neither Donegal nor Derry were shocks, not once Down had shown them they were good enough.  Derry in particular had a wealth of players with all ireland medals at minor, club, schools and sigerson level and had taken their first national senior title since '47 the year before, Donegal were very underrated outside of Ulster, I could never understand why, but...

[spectator]

The 98 team was a mixture of the left overs of that 95 team and a group of raw youngsters out of St Jarlath's but nobody realistically had them down to win the lot in early May 98.

Interesting debate - this was the indo's view in early August '98


http://www.independent.ie/sport/galways-voyage-of-discovery-continues-434755.html

Galway's voyage of discovery continues
Monday August 03 1998

As the Roscommon players trooped dejectedly out of their dressingroom after Saturday evening's Bank of Ireland Connacht SFC final replay defeat by Galway, a group of supporters applauded them warmly. It had been an evening of scarred emotions for Roscommon, a county desperately seeking to regain the glory of lost days.

A few players remained in the dressingroom, including goalkeeper Derek Thompson, who knew his error had bequeathed the goal that separated the sides at the end.
Bizarrely, three Galway forwards Niall Finnegan, Shea Walsh and Michael Donnellan all converged on Thompson as he made to clear an easy ball off his own line.

As he drew back his hand to palm it away to Clifford McDonald, Walsh made a vital connection. Donnellan and Finnegan almost tripped over each other in their eagerness to avail of the scrap; Donnellan got his boot to it and, just 29 seconds into the second period of extra-time, Galway were five points up, 1-16 to 0-14.

On a day when the teams were level on eight occasions, this immediately became the turning-point. ``I really don't remember much about it,'' said a badly-shaken Thompson afterwards. ``I played in goal myself and I'm not going to blame Derek Thompson,'' said Gay Sheerin, Connacht's managerial discovery of the season. ``He made two great saves in the first half that kept us in the game.''

OVER the past fortnight, Roscommon have asked serious questions of Galway and, as Galway manager John O'Mahony admitted, they forced ``a lot of soul-searching''.

Let us get a handle on Roscommon's voyage this summer. Last year, they lost to Sligo in the Connacht championship.
This was followed by a dismal run in Section D of the National League. They lost to Tipperary, Cork, Kildare, and Down, drew with Wicklow and Clare, and beat only Waterford and Limerick. Consequently, they are destined for Division Four next season.

In the opening round of this year's championship against Sligo, they were seven points down with only a few minutes left. Two goals saw them rescue a draw. They won the replay.

They should have won the drawn Connacht final a fortnight ago and with only 13 minutes to in Saturday evening's replay, they were two points up and looking very strong.
And, yet, it comes to this: Sheerin leaning back against a white van at the back of the stand, unravelling his thoughts on a humdinger of a game, his craggy face betraying every last strand of his disappointment. ``When we started out this year, we had only one goal, and that was to win the All-Ireland. I know a lot of people won't believe that, but that was our goal,'' he said.

In the shifting sands of Gaelic football, Sheerin must now change the focus to getting his team out of Division Four.
The two and a half games have told Galway a lot about themselves the worry is that they don't have the back-up personnel to plug the holes which have been uncovered.

John Divilly started this season with a blitz of good reviews after holding the middle so well against Mayo but Mayo played into his hands by deputising Colm McManamon to run the field. In the two Connacht finals, Divilly was badly-beaten by the power and football of Fergal O'Donnell.
Good centre half-backs don't come by mail order. Damien Mitchell is now the favoured son.

Elsewhere, the defence did better than expected Tomás Meehan jockeyed Lorcan Dowd for every last turn and twist and eventually snuffed him out completely.
Gary Fahy showed a willingness to attack the ball at last, even if one lunge left Eddie Lohan in for a beautiful point.

O'Mahony, the first man to manage three different counties to Connacht titles, will overlook any errors as long as Fahy is positive in his play.
You play with the hands of card you're dealt. Tomás Mannion, no homegrown marker, adapted well at corner-back. Ray Silke was torn apart by Eddie Lohan early on but benefited from the restructuring after Divilly was substituted.

The real gains for Galway came in the shape of improved displays by Seán de Paor, Michael Donnellan and Jarlath Fallon.
ALL three produced their best games of the season; de Paor was wonderful from start to finish, Fallon started erratically but settled in to score five points from play, and Donnellan worked harder than he has done all season, even if his distribution is still suspect.

Midfield enjoyed long spells of supremacy, though the sight of Kevin Walsh crumbling in a heap, clutching his leg, ensures some anxious days before the Croke Park trip.
Tommy Joyce got his chance at wing-forward on Saturday, but he kicked poorly and was substituted after 49 minutes. His brother Padraig only came into the game when he came out to wing-forward which, as his Sigerson Cup exploits have shown, has always been his best position.

The over-riding impression leaving Hyde Park was that Galway are still not an All-Ireland team.

They need an unflappable ball-winner in attack, another midfielder if they had one to spare, and a dominant figure at the heart of the defence.

But their All-Ireland semi-final opponents, Derry, are a team on the slide these past few years. Galway's graph is now upwards, after the dip of the past fortnight. There's an All-Ireland final place going handy.