Maigh Eo v Doire, Pairc An Chrócaigh, De Domhnaigh 13ú Aibreain, 1400

[moysider]

Just have my pedantic head on lads but why "AN Doire"?

I know.
Just 'Doire'.  Didn t want to say anything. I m in enough bad books on here.

[moysider]

Maybe I m missing something here and it s a while since I got a chemistry set to experiment with but why the need for experimentation?

We need to get the more direct game plan working at the start of these games. The main reason, imo, for the 'non-impact' subs is we reach burn out on 60 mins due to the running game. If we start to mix it more our defense can defend more and in particular from the crucial 60th minute onwards.

I m sure management are focussing on tactics, consistency, organistion and getting impact subs off the bench rather than subs that flute around.

You nailed it there. The initial tactic against the Dubs of been more direct didn't really work the last day with the set of forwards on the field. I think if B Moran and Freeman are in there together and Sweeney feeding off them we can make it work, seems kind of obvious.

I doubt it. Instead of one, we give the opposition two stagnant targets to not worry about. That tactic is obsolete.
We d be going back to our worst nightmare. Donaghy! Tyrone had no problem dealing with something that terrified us.
Anyway it s been tried before and it didn t work in Derry under Johnno and it didn t work on St. Patrick's Day with Pateen. It might be obvious and that is one reason why it wont work. A defense like Dublin would love to see that rolled out. We need to do something bold, not resort to Wimbledon shite.

[macdanger2]

Just have my pedantic head on lads but why "AN Doire"?

Psychological warefare 

[macdanger2]

Hennelly
Harrison Caff Cunniffe
Durcan Higgins Drake
      Parsons B Moran
McLoughlin COC Vaughan
Sweeney Freeman Gallagher

That's a bit too experimental.

I would prefer
          Hennelly
Harrison Caff Cunniffe
Keegan Vaughan Boyle
      AOShea JGibbons
McLoughlin COC KHiggins
Sweeney BMoran Freeman

Maybe I m missing something here and it s a while since I got a chemistry set to experiment with but why the need for experimentation?

A few reasons I'd experiment:
- We already know what the current team can do - who's to say what a couple of new combiinations might give us. That said, James has decided on 13 of the 15 starters already
- Keep the players on their toes, the HB line are guaranteed championship starters but if they see a young lad like Durcan getting a run out and doing well, they'll know that it's not a god-given right they have
- Have a look at possible options in case we get injuries during the summer. IMO, the only injuries we could get where we wouldn't have a reasonable replacement (albeit untried in some cases) are Caff, COC & McLoughlin
- This match is almost meaningless

TBF moy, you're the very man who lauds the likes of Clare for sticking on an untried young fella in an All Ireland final (and I'd agree with you on that) but why you don't see the need to experiment in a league match in April is beyond me???

Vaughan at half forward is something I'd like to see tried, I think he could give us a lot in terms of his size & athleticism. I don't think we're getting the best out of Keith Higgins there - maybe he'll grow into it over the year though

[Tubberman]

Hennelly
Harrison Caff Cunniffe
Durcan Higgins Drake
      Parsons B Moran
McLoughlin COC Vaughan
Sweeney Freeman Gallagher

That's a bit too experimental.

I would prefer
          Hennelly
Harrison Caff Cunniffe
Keegan Vaughan Boyle
      AOShea JGibbons
McLoughlin COC KHiggins
Sweeney BMoran Freeman

Maybe I m missing something here and it s a while since I got a chemistry set to experiment with but why the need for experimentation?

A few reasons I'd experiment:
- We already know what the current team can do - who's to say what a couple of new combiinations might give us. That said, James has decided on 13 of the 15 starters already
- Keep the players on their toes, the HB line are guaranteed championship starters but if they see a young lad like Durcan getting a run out and doing well, they'll know that it's not a god-given right they have
- Have a look at possible options in case we get injuries during the summer. IMO, the only injuries we could get where we wouldn't have a reasonable replacement (albeit untried in some cases) are Caff, COC & McLoughlin
- This match is almost meaningless

TBF moy, you're the very man who lauds the likes of Clare for sticking on an untried young fella in an All Ireland final (and I'd agree with you on that) but why you don't see the need to experiment in a league match in April is beyond me???

Vaughan at half forward is something I'd like to see tried, I think he could give us a lot in terms of his size & athleticism. I don't think we're getting the best out of Keith Higgins there - maybe he'll grow into it over the year though

How is this match meaningless!? After last week's match, I think this game has taken on a much bigger significance.
If we lose, we won't be in the semis and the disappointment, frustration and self-doubt from the Dublin match will be allowed to fester until Championship rolls around, and could potentially leave us (players, management and supporters) deflated and doubting ourselves even more than usual.
If we win, we're in the semis and straight back to Croker for a chance to put things right and move on.

[macdanger2]

There's only one match we can win in croker that will "put things right"

I doubt the players are allowing Saturday's result to instill doubt in the same way supporters are

[moysider]

Hennelly
Harrison Caff Cunniffe
Durcan Higgins Drake
      Parsons B Moran
McLoughlin COC Vaughan
Sweeney Freeman Gallagher

That's a bit too experimental.

I would prefer
          Hennelly
Harrison Caff Cunniffe
Keegan Vaughan Boyle
      AOShea JGibbons
McLoughlin COC KHiggins
Sweeney BMoran Freeman

Maybe I m missing something here and it s a while since I got a chemistry set to experiment with but why the need for experimentation?

A few reasons I'd experiment:
- We already know what the current team can do - who's to say what a couple of new combiinations might give us. That said, James has decided on 13 of the 15 starters already
- Keep the players on their toes, the HB line are guaranteed championship starters but if they see a young lad like Durcan getting a run out and doing well, they'll know that it's not a god-given right they have
- Have a look at possible options in case we get injuries during the summer. IMO, the only injuries we could get where we wouldn't have a reasonable replacement (albeit untried in some cases) are Caff, COC & McLoughlin
- This match is almost meaningless

TBF moy, you're the very man who lauds the likes of Clare for sticking on an untried young fella in an All Ireland final (and I'd agree with you on that) but why you don't see the need to experiment in a league match in April is beyond me???

Vaughan at half forward is something I'd like to see tried, I think he could give us a lot in terms of his size & athleticism. I don't think we're getting the best out of Keith Higgins there - maybe he'll grow into it over the year though

Tbh I don t think there s any new tricks in the panel waiting to be discovered. Even Mikey Sweeney was there 4/5 years ago. We ve all know what Conroy, Varley and Coen can do. Likes of Keane seems to have run out of runway. The Vaughan at half-forward is something that could be looked at and who knows it may have been looked at already in training or in a challenge match. I ve my doubts if he has the skills to do a job there because his decision making for starters is not great in advanced situations. Things like that are tried anyway before an actual competitive game. Do we know that Patrick Durkan is in the squad. Likes of Stephen and him it s only a matter of time rather than see if they can do a job. There are no untried young fellas in the squad. I had a particular individual in mind at the time.

[DennistheMenace]

I can McIver experimenting with this one considering we are already qualified. I'm hoping he will give some boys game time who are currently on the fringes of the team. For once not only do we have a strong starting 15 but we've got strength in depth and fellas who can come on and make an impact.

Expecting a tight game and possibly Mayo to win by a few points.

[screenexile]

What's the story with the semi's? Are they in Croker or do 1st & 2nd place get home advantage?

[macdanger2]

Croker last year anyway

[quiganmaster]

From a Derry perspective, would like to see this team:
McNicholl
Mckinless Mckaige McBride
SL Mc.   OKane       Johnson
Patsy Lynch
Mcfaul   Kielt   Lynn
Oboyle  Bell   McGoldrick

Kept the defence the same as they were brilliant at the weekend and will be a tough forward line of mayos to defend against. Took Lynch out to MF which will give a space for Kielt to have another chance in CHF, kept the pace and creativity of the other HFs. Give heron a rest and start mcgoldrick in the corner, looked lively against Kildare when he came on. Ryan Bell into FF, think he has the attributes to be a brilliant FF, big and strong, great hands and a lighting shot. also wasn't very impressed by Mcguckin at the weekend. What other fringe players do we have in our panel? Mcatamney? Charlie Kielt? McAlynn?

[Dubhaltach]

I was happy enough with Andy Moran. If he gets back close to his best by championship we ll be all happy I think. It was always going to take a while.

This team has been very ruthless at times over the past 3 years. Roscommon, Galway, Cork, Down, Donegal and Dublin for 50mins in 2012 were all on the end of a bit of ruthlessness in championship matches. And players and management deserve credit for this. I think their is a consciousness in this team that they go looking for goals. It s a deliberate thing where before goal chances were thing that might or might not happen. Horan expects runners to take a chance and run from deep positions. This runner often ends up with a goal chance. The fact that Keegan ends up scoring so much is not by chance. Vaughan should score a lot more. Ideally Boyle instead of Vaughan is a player you want to get forward because Boyle can score.
Farrandeeelin will remember a few years ago when Knockmore would patiently wait to tee up Chucky to take the shot on. Crossmaglen used to leave much of the shooting to Oisín because he was most likely to score. One of our problems v Dublin was poor shot selection by players who are not tecnically good enough to be taking on shots from 30metres and more.
For me the biggest problem this team has is making ball stick in the ff line. A stat in Mayo News shows that while we won 80% of kickouts while it was 15v15 only 2 from 12 high balls to ff line stuck. Mixing the brilliant with the terrible and the story of the game is in those stats afaic. 10 Mayo possessions kicked away to the opposition to run back at us. A similar turnover stat was the reason we lost the Donegal final. Something like 2-7 of Donegal s total came from Mayo trying to kick the ball into a ff line.
As soon as the ff thing is mentioned people start to nominate the biggest unit they can think off as a target. Whether its Freeman or an even bigger Barry Moran, high ball is too easily defended by the better teams. With the way the scoring rate has risen in games and top teams ability to counter attack, a target man would need to win a create a score from 50%? of the ball going in. 2 balls won from 12 is not sustainable. For that reason I would prefer a more versatile target player inside and rely on clever runs and low balls to get ball to stick inside. That is where Andy and Dillon have a role to play yet.
If we could get the ff thing sorted, and we have the personnel to do it imo, we would take another leap forward. Pressure would be taken off other parts of the team. People have been moaning about our defense but look at where the problems are happening. Turnovers into the ff line with our hbs in advanced roles. Ripe for the sucker punch.

When you consider the fact that we scored 2-17 and were 5 points up with 5 minutes to go, its hard to see how those stats were 'the story of the game.' That 2 out of 12 stat related to the first half only, a half where we went in four points up. That game was left behind because we stopped playing for the last 5 minutes, not because of the general forward play for the previous 65.

Fair enough, the number of ball that stuck in there the last night could have been better but I think that this tactical change is one thats on the right track. The last time we kicked as much ball was indeed the Donegal final, the problem there was that their early lead was just too insurmountable, not the kicking game. The fact that we havnt attempted this type of game in the last 2 years meant that a lot of the execution in our kick passing the last night was poor, hence some of the long ball appearing aimless. This however is something that can be greatly improved as the year progresses. Turnovers are where most matches are won and lost in the modern game. I would argue that a turnover lost playing our running game is a lot more dangerous than one lost kicking a long ball to the full forward line. What we often see with the running game is a mayo player getting dispossed in traffic while our half back line are all inside the oppositions 45. This leaves that large open space that was so obvious during the first few league matches. With a lost long ball the half back line are already in a position to regroup and defend. I think this is highlighted by that 2 out of 12 stat. Even though we kicked the ball away 10 times in that first half, no goal was conceeded. On the other hand, of the 2 balls that stuck, one turned up in the back of net.

Look Im not advocating a complete abandonment of the running game, I know its served us well over the last few years, I just think that we need to vary it against the top teams or we'll be caught out like we were in last years final.

Anyway looking forward to the Derry game at the weekend, Id stick with more or less the same team that went out the last day with maybe Sweeney in for Doc. As others have mentioned, its vital that we qualify for the semis so that our collapse against the dubs dosnt linger and that means getting our best team out on the pitch. Do that and theres no reason why we shouldnt be challenging for a league title come the end of the month.

[moysider]

I was happy enough with Andy Moran. If he gets back close to his best by championship we ll be all happy I think. It was always going to take a while.

This team has been very ruthless at times over the past 3 years. Roscommon, Galway, Cork, Down, Donegal and Dublin for 50mins in 2012 were all on the end of a bit of ruthlessness in championship matches. And players and management deserve credit for this. I think their is a consciousness in this team that they go looking for goals. It s a deliberate thing where before goal chances were thing that might or might not happen. Horan expects runners to take a chance and run from deep positions. This runner often ends up with a goal chance. The fact that Keegan ends up scoring so much is not by chance. Vaughan should score a lot more. Ideally Boyle instead of Vaughan is a player you want to get forward because Boyle can score.
Farrandeeelin will remember a few years ago when Knockmore would patiently wait to tee up Chucky to take the shot on. Crossmaglen used to leave much of the shooting to Oisín because he was most likely to score. One of our problems v Dublin was poor shot selection by players who are not tecnically good enough to be taking on shots from 30metres and more.
For me the biggest problem this team has is making ball stick in the ff line. A stat in Mayo News shows that while we won 80% of kickouts while it was 15v15 only 2 from 12 high balls to ff line stuck. Mixing the brilliant with the terrible and the story of the game is in those stats afaic. 10 Mayo possessions kicked away to the opposition to run back at us. A similar turnover stat was the reason we lost the Donegal final. Something like 2-7 of Donegal s total came from Mayo trying to kick the ball into a ff line.
As soon as the ff thing is mentioned people start to nominate the biggest unit they can think off as a target. Whether its Freeman or an even bigger Barry Moran, high ball is too easily defended by the better teams. With the way the scoring rate has risen in games and top teams ability to counter attack, a target man would need to win a create a score from 50%? of the ball going in. 2 balls won from 12 is not sustainable. For that reason I would prefer a more versatile target player inside and rely on clever runs and low balls to get ball to stick inside. That is where Andy and Dillon have a role to play yet.
If we could get the ff thing sorted, and we have the personnel to do it imo, we would take another leap forward. Pressure would be taken off other parts of the team. People have been moaning about our defense but look at where the problems are happening. Turnovers into the ff line with our hbs in advanced roles. Ripe for the sucker punch.

When you consider the fact that we scored 2-17 and were 5 points up with 5 minutes to go, its hard to see how those stats were 'the story of the game.' That 2 out of 12 stat related to the first half only, a half where we went in four points up. That game was left behind because we stopped playing for the last 5 minutes, not because of the general forward play for the previous 65.

Fair enough, the number of ball that stuck in there the last night could have been better but I think that this tactical change is one thats on the right track. The last time we kicked as much ball was indeed the Donegal final, the problem there was that their early lead was just too insurmountable, not the kicking game. The fact that we havnt attempted this type of game in the last 2 years meant that a lot of the execution in our kick passing the last night was poor, hence some of the long ball appearing aimless. This however is something that can be greatly improved as the year progresses. Turnovers are where most matches are won and lost in the modern game. I would argue that a turnover lost playing our running game is a lot more dangerous than one lost kicking a long ball to the full forward line. What we often see with the running game is a mayo player getting dispossed in traffic while our half back line are all inside the oppositions 45. This leaves that large open space that was so obvious during the first few league matches. With a lost long ball the half back line are already in a position to regroup and defend. I think this is highlighted by that 2 out of 12 stat. Even though we kicked the ball away 10 times in that first half, no goal was conceeded. On the other hand, of the 2 balls that stuck, one turned up in the back of net.

Look Im not advocating a complete abandonment of the running game, I know its served us well over the last few years, I just think that we need to vary it against the top teams or we'll be caught out like we were in last years final.

Anyway looking forward to the Derry game at the weekend, Id stick with more or less the same team that went out the last day with maybe Sweeney in for Doc. As others have mentioned, its vital that we qualify for the semis so that our collapse against the dubs dosnt linger and that means getting our best team out on the pitch. Do that and theres no reason why we shouldnt be challenging for a league title come the end of the month.

Both Donegal goals came from Mayo turning over possession at the other end. The first came after Eamonn McGee cut out a kick pass from Dillon to COC. 12 seconds later the ball was in the back of the net. The second goal was another counter attack after Cillian got bottled up near the Donegal and had a free awarded against him. Free probably should have gone the other way. But that is how Donegal got their early lead.
Those stats were the 'story of the Dublin game' because our midfield dominance was such that we should have killed them and probably should have been 10 points or more ahead with 5 minutes to go and game put to bed. If Dublin had that kind of dominance their forwards would have nailed us to a cross. Our kicking game into ff line is so bad it is a polite way of giving hard won possession to a struggling opposition.
Like you I realise we have to persist with some early ball into a ff line. But there is neither enough pace or movement in there as things stand. We could start by playing a different system where we can isolate 1 or 2 ffs inside with space to run onto passes. I m not a fan of the stand- up full-forward. But basically I think we are saying the same thing.

[rosnarun]

why do people still insist on a complete over haul of the mayo team and way of playing when we have never been as close to an all Ireland as we have now.
Mayo are definitely one of the top two teams in the country and never before in my time watching mayo could you have said tat with such assurance . maybe in 1997 but the way the team and fans imploded in shame after that should teach us a valuable lessons.
Many fans are heading down that same road again with twin towers approach and Moving  Vaughan to half forward dragging Durcan in from nowhere, and worst moving the style away from a running game  to do that we would need 12  new players and the kicking and catching skill of this team is only average. Prime example being  cafferkey and Boyle .
this is a team that needs fine tuning not overhaul.
now you could make a case that a new voice is need for that final touch but Horan deserves one more shot

[Estimator]

1. Eoin McNicholl (Gleann an Iolair)
2. Oisin Duffy (Forghleann)
3. Conor McAtamney (Suaitreach)
4. Karl McKaigue (Leacht Néill)
5. Charlie Kielt (Cill Ria) (C)
6. Mark Craig (Dún Geimhin)
7. Aidan McAlynn (An Lúb)
8. Emmett McGuckin (Machaire Fíolta)
9. Niall Holly (Eoghan Rua)
10. Aaron Devlin (Baile an Doire)
11. Danny Heavron (Machaire Fíolta)
12. Carlus McWilliams (Baile na Scrine)
13. James Kearney (Suaitreach)
14. Declan Mullan (Eoghan Rua)
15. Ciaran McGoldrick (Eoghan Rua)
16. Thomas Mallon (An Lúb)
17. Gerard O'Kane (Gleann an Iolair)
18. Kieran Conway (Baile na Scrine)
19. Paudie McGuigan (Leacht Néill)
20. Emmet Bradley (Gleann)
21. Peter Cassidy (Baile Eachaidh)
22. Aaron Kerrigan (Clóidigh)
23. Neill McNicholl (Gleann an Iolair)
24. Niall McFeely (Fothaír Ghleann)
25. Ryan Bell (Baile an Doire)
26. Anthony O'Neill (An Lúb)
27. Cailean O'Boyle (Leamhaigh)

Huge amount of changes on Derry team. Some regulars not on the panel at all.