NFL Division 1 2024

[tbrick18]

Moving on....Dublin v Mayo - discuss (maybe I've missed it earlier in the thread)
Dublin should probably have won but credit to Mayo, stuck at it. The foul at the end giving Mayo the free to win it was a schoolboy error. Didn't need to touch him, just keep him in the corner and they would probably  have got the draw.
I don't think Dublin will be too worried mind.
They still look strong and will no doubt improve.
Mayo - who knows what they'll do. Could be brilliant. Could be awful.

[Lamh Dhearg Alba]

I don't want to win the NFL or Ulster this year.

Tailor training after the NFL to peak for the All Ireland QFs. A loss to Donegal will get the knives out for everyone about "Glen lads back too early" "no depth" "no forwards" "Mickey Harte shouldn't have taken the Derry job" etc.

Nobody better at a siege mentality than Mickey Harte.

The one problem with that is Mickey never likes to lose games ever so I imagine we'll just be flat to the mat from now until we get beat!

The other problem is mickey hasnt beaten Kerry, Dublin or Mayo in 10 years in a championship match.

Would the last time this happened not be 2008 AI final? I could be missing a game, but the big gripe towards the end in Tyrone was how long we had went without cracking these 3 in championship. I can't remember a more recent one, possibly a Mayo game I'm forgetting?

You're right, 2008 was his last Championship win in Croke Park against a genuine contender. He also struggled after going more defensive (post Donegal defeats) to find the right balance between defence and attack. Both of which made him an interesting choice for a Derry side trying to kick on by winning big games against the top teams and trying to find the right balance between defence and attack.

Is there a case to be made that Tyrone were a little off the top teams in the country at that time?Tyrone fans were spoilt from 2003 to 2008 going from never winning an all Ireland to 3 in 6 years and with that comes a demand for more success.Canavan their greatest ever player was coming to end and mulligan,mcguigan and o Neill were top class at their peak in those years.they didn't have anywhere near close to as good a forward line in the years that followed.

Yeah there is a case to be made and it's the standard response but I don't think it stands up to serious scrutiny. I'd say 2008 was Mickey's finest hour (so far 😁) in terms of management as he won an AI with McGuigan with reduced vision, fitness and mobility, Mugsy out of sorts and on the bench, SON not there but for a very late cameo and Canavan long gone. It was a real team achievement and the next couple of years looked rosy with that team still growing, SON back and Mugsy re-focused, and AI winning minor teams from 2004 and 2008. Instead he tried to go back to the pre 2008 model and failed badly in very winnable big games in 2009 and 2010.

The team was getting old in 2011 and 2012 (although he hadn't refreshed it properly if I'm being harsh) so I'd write those off. There were then a few seasons when he did well to stay pretty competitive with a less talented panel and I wouldn't question those defeats at all.

The new team 2016 onwards he made a mess of with an overly defensive model. Humiliating defeat against the Dubs in 2017 when the game was over after 5 minutes due to there being no plan other than ultra defence. Nothing wrong with losing to that team but the manner of it was terrible. Following year he threw 3 years of work out the window on AI final day by trying to go out all out attack with a team who had been drilled on mass defence. Over by half time. You wondered the following year when wr led Kerry were things coming together. Came apart second half trying to defend a lead.

Was no coincidence in 2021 players saying they loved Mickey etc but now felt free to express themselves on the big day and take on scores.

Now Derry folk can say bitter Tyrone people etc but there's nothing there I wasn't saying on  Tyrone threads for a few years before Mickey moved on. I've a massive respect for the man in so many ways, but he made a lot of mistakes from 2008 onwards. Perhaps he has learned from those, perhaps the hunger from the Derry players will make a difference and coupled with Mickey's experience will drive them on. But the questions are valid.

You don't concede 2-17 in game by playing ultra defensive. Was at that match and Tyrone were awful defensively.

Well indeed, that's the point. Mickey had built a new side on an ultra defensive model and that was the first big test. Dublin scored a goal after 4 minutes and Tyrone having gone a few points down so early had no clue how to come back. The Dublin crowd were doing the ole stuff in the first half. The manner of the defeat was entirely down to the game plan. That the game plan was so utterly flawed was illustrated by him out of nothing going all out attack in the game against the Dubs the year after - and getting hammered again.

And in response to Captain Obvious, I'm in no way talking down Mickey Harte's contribution to Tyrone's success in the 2000s. The players were class but he was fundamental to it all. He's also been an inspirational figure in how has handled himself through harrowing experiences - and indeed how he has supported others in tough times.

Doesn't mean his very poor record in big GAA games over the past 16 years shouldn't be scrutinised.

[trailer]

I don't want to win the NFL or Ulster this year.

Tailor training after the NFL to peak for the All Ireland QFs. A loss to Donegal will get the knives out for everyone about "Glen lads back too early" "no depth" "no forwards" "Mickey Harte shouldn't have taken the Derry job" etc.

Nobody better at a siege mentality than Mickey Harte.

The one problem with that is Mickey never likes to lose games ever so I imagine we'll just be flat to the mat from now until we get beat!

The other problem is mickey hasnt beaten Kerry, Dublin or Mayo in 10 years in a championship match.

Would the last time this happened not be 2008 AI final? I could be missing a game, but the big gripe towards the end in Tyrone was how long we had went without cracking these 3 in championship. I can't remember a more recent one, possibly a Mayo game I'm forgetting?

You're right, 2008 was his last Championship win in Croke Park against a genuine contender. He also struggled after going more defensive (post Donegal defeats) to find the right balance between defence and attack. Both of which made him an interesting choice for a Derry side trying to kick on by winning big games against the top teams and trying to find the right balance between defence and attack.

Is there a case to be made that Tyrone were a little off the top teams in the country at that time?Tyrone fans were spoilt from 2003 to 2008 going from never winning an all Ireland to 3 in 6 years and with that comes a demand for more success.Canavan their greatest ever player was coming to end and mulligan,mcguigan and o Neill were top class at their peak in those years.they didn't have anywhere near close to as good a forward line in the years that followed.

Yeah there is a case to be made and it's the standard response but I don't think it stands up to serious scrutiny. I'd say 2008 was Mickey's finest hour (so far 😁) in terms of management as he won an AI with McGuigan with reduced vision, fitness and mobility, Mugsy out of sorts and on the bench, SON not there but for a very late cameo and Canavan long gone. It was a real team achievement and the next couple of years looked rosy with that team still growing, SON back and Mugsy re-focused, and AI winning minor teams from 2004 and 2008. Instead he tried to go back to the pre 2008 model and failed badly in very winnable big games in 2009 and 2010.

The team was getting old in 2011 and 2012 (although he hadn't refreshed it properly if I'm being harsh) so I'd write those off. There were then a few seasons when he did well to stay pretty competitive with a less talented panel and I wouldn't question those defeats at all.

The new team 2016 onwards he made a mess of with an overly defensive model. Humiliating defeat against the Dubs in 2017 when the game was over after 5 minutes due to there being no plan other than ultra defence. Nothing wrong with losing to that team but the manner of it was terrible. Following year he threw 3 years of work out the window on AI final day by trying to go out all out attack with a team who had been drilled on mass defence. Over by half time. You wondered the following year when wr led Kerry were things coming together. Came apart second half trying to defend a lead.

Was no coincidence in 2021 players saying they loved Mickey etc but now felt free to express themselves on the big day and take on scores.

Now Derry folk can say bitter Tyrone people etc but there's nothing there I wasn't saying on  Tyrone threads for a few years before Mickey moved on. I've a massive respect for the man in so many ways, but he made a lot of mistakes from 2008 onwards. Perhaps he has learned from those, perhaps the hunger from the Derry players will make a difference and coupled with Mickey's experience will drive them on. But the questions are valid.

You don't concede 2-17 in game by playing ultra defensive. Was at that match and Tyrone were awful defensively.

Harte set them up to be defensive. And it worked for first 20 mins. Then Morgan's poor kick out gifted them a goal followed by the defence giving away a penalty. Tyrone weren't setup to chase the lead and ended up getting beat again as was typical of Harte's teams in big games.

I'm confused, was it Hartes fault you were beat or Morgans or the defences fault?

It was the players fault when they won. Harte's fault they were beat. And Morgan's fault downstream from Harte's fault for picking him in a defence who gave away a penalty. There's probably a finger of blame to be pointed at Dublin too for being so good.

Niall Morgan would be one of Tyrone's greatest players ever if he did the basics and only the basics. His free taking and (I can't believe I am typing this about a goalkeeper) shot selection are terrible and lets him down time and time again.

[Taylor]

There arent many goalkeepers in Ireland I would rather have instead of Morgan - one or two at a push maybe but in my mind he is a top top keeper

[Derryman forever]

There arent many goalkeepers in Ireland I would rather have instead of Morgan - one or two at a push maybe but in my mind he is a top top keeper

He is the best of them all.

Now i must go wash that out of my mind

[imtommygunn]

Beggan or Cluxton are above him but the three of them are well above the rest IMO.

[Wildweasel74]

That Laois lad might be better than any of them on present form.

[marty34]

That Laois lad might be better than any of them on present form.

Yeah, seems to be scoring points for fun - from set pieces and from play.

[seafoid]

Moving on....Dublin v Mayo - discuss (maybe I've missed it earlier in the thread)
Dublin should probably have won but credit to Mayo, stuck at it. The foul at the end giving Mayo the free to win it was a schoolboy error. Didn't need to touch him, just keep him in the corner and they would probably  have got the draw.
I don't think Dublin will be too worried mind.
They still look strong and will no doubt improve.
Mayo - who knows what they'll do. Could be brilliant. Could be awful.

The last minute was real 50/50. It reminded me of Irl vs NZ in the RWC. Sometimes it works out at the death and sometimes it doesn't. Dublin did enough to win imo but sher it's only the league.

[Eire90]

Would the league be even more important if  after provincial champs the seeding went by league standings.

[Rossfan]

but sher it's only the league.

We've a match tonight but it's just the League
We'll go into town and go Jaeger Bombin
It's all or nothing if yer from Roscommon...

(Apologies to whoever has the copyright on that oul song)

[seafoid]

Ros are definitely pacing themselves so far compared to last year. A qf at least must be the goal this year. the exit last year was very disappointing. They won't be caught out again

[yellowcard]

Beggan or Cluxton are above him but the three of them are well above the rest IMO.

Cluxton is the greatest ever. Beggan has probably surpassed him in terms of his kicking ability but Cluxton has done it over a 20 year period and repeatedly on the biggest occasions under the greatest pressure. His all round game was the best and his temperament was his biggest asset. Morgan has been very good for a decade but his decision making can be suspect at times. Still a top keeper on his day.

[imtommygunn]

Cluxton was absolutely flawless in the AI final last year. Still when it comes down to it think he's the best. When the "high press" goes on he was able to find a way. (I guess who your team is helps too mind you but still)

[twohands!!!]

Would the league be even more important if  after provincial champs the seeding went by league standings.

It would obviously be more important but the reality is there is no way this will ever happen while the provincial councils have such a massive chunk of votes.

I think making is so that the provincial losers weren't the 2nd seeds would improve things some small bit.