Should An Glenn object?

[Armagh18]

McFaul to score the winner off the bench after being brought on for Danny Tallon who is wrestling with Shane Walsh instead of coming off the field!

[Look-Up!]

You are looking at it from a 'gentlemans agreement, fairplay crap' The slips were given and its totally down to the officials that allowed play to continue while there was an extra man on the pitch.

The KC management alone have full responsibility to ensure that they have only 15 players on the field, and the officials have the responsibility to correct any transgressions in this regard. The officials definitely messed up but the KC are equally (if not more) culpable. Team management certainly has to supply the officials with the name of the subs, but those officials are not responsible for swapping the players on/off. If you can find a rule that states this I'd be happy to be corrected.

That would certainly be my interpretation of it. If bulk of responsibility was down to officials, why would there even be a provision in the rules for punishing a team when breach occurs.

[Franko]

At no point in this will KC say they didn't have 16 players on the pitch, just forget about Mannion, it doesn't come into it all all, standing on the pitch side of the sideline is nowhere near what was going on.

The problem Glen may have is if Crokes said they followed procedure i.e sub slips and the 4th official let the ref know, but he waved it on (thinking the player had left) it will be a tough one to lose, as in forfeit, which within the overall rules they can lose it.

Croke park will have to wait for the referee's report first, they will not have seen it till after Glen put in an appeal, these things are generally posted or on occasions emailed, but I think this one will be meticulously written up.. Glen will get a copy as will KC so I'd say this is a big fecking headace now..

I really feel for the officials on that side and the ref tbh, because up to that point he'd a brilliant game, and it was a penalty 

Is this procedure documented anywhere?  Where?

I understand what you say about feeling sorry for the ref... BUT

If he was informed about the transgression and didn't act, then I'm sorry, but no matter how good a game he had, this is a massive error in judgement

If he wasn't informed, then the 4th official has made the error as he should have been screaming on the radio to the ref to not restart the game

Controlling substitutions is his primary role

Assuming O'Rourke is a man of his word and he did inform the sideline official at the time, then, between them, the officials should have forced the 45 to be retaken

It would have been slightly controversial at the time, and even more so had Glen scored, but nothing to this shit storm

[trueblue1234]

Some saying Glen should decline the replay now. Can't understand that!! It would be poor form as in kicking up about it, only to then not accept the offer of the reply.
All that would have achieved is destroying the KC celebrations. I'd be annoyed if Glen did that tbh.  I do actually feel sorry for the KC players, as what should have been a fantastic week celebrating, has been cut short (rightly). But the least they deserve is the chance to win it again and to properly experience it this time. Or to lose fairly. If Glen turn round now and say they weren't going to play the replay, it would be a underwhelming way for KC to win it and I'd feel it was pointless objecting.
I think KC need to get out quick and agree with the appeal and take whatever the GAA send them. If it's a reply then get it done ASAP and let the winner get on with it. No point acting the martyr and forfeiting the opportunity of a replay, again that's no way for Glen to win it.

[pbat]

McFaul to score the winner off the bench after being brought on for Danny Tallon who is wrestling with Shane Walsh instead of coming off the field!

I have a feeling McFaul's only chance of scoring a winner in the next 3-4 years is if he lines out for the Crips vs the Bloods in the yard's annual 5 a side.

[lenny]

At no point in this will KC say they didn't have 16 players on the pitch, just forget about Mannion, it doesn't come into it all all, standing on the pitch side of the sideline is nowhere near what was going on.

The problem Glen may have is if Crokes said they followed procedure i.e sub slips and the 4th official let the ref know, but he waved it on (thinking the player had left) it will be a tough one to lose, as in forfeit, which within the overall rules they can lose it.

Croke park will have to wait for the referee's report first, they will not have seen it till after Glen put in an appeal, these things are generally posted or on occasions emailed, but I think this one will be meticulously written up.. Glen will get a copy as will KC so I'd say this is a big fecking headace now..

I really feel for the officials on that side and the ref tbh, because up to that point he'd a brilliant game, and it was a penalty 

Is this procedure documented anywhere?  Where?

I understand what you say about feeling sorry for the ref... BUT

If he was informed about the transgression and didn't act, then I'm sorry, but no matter how good a game he had, this is a massive error in judgement

If he wasn't informed, then the 4th official has made the error as he should have been screaming on the radio to the ref to not restart the game

Controlling substitutions is his primary role

Assuming O'Rourke is a man of his word and he did inform the sideline official at the time, then, between them, the officials should have forced the 45 to be retaken

It would have been slightly controversial at the time, and even more so had Glen scored, but nothing to this shit storm

The rule is clear and states that there are 3 possible scenarios. One - Glen are awarded the game. 2 - A replay. 3. A fine. Based on the severity of the transgression it is clear to me the only fair solution is a fine.

[Milltown Row2]

You are looking at it from a 'gentlemans agreement, fairplay crap' The slips were given and its totally down to the officials that allowed play to continue while there was an extra man on the pitch.

The KC management alone have full responsibility to ensure that they have only 15 players on the field, and the officials have the responsibility to correct any transgressions in this regard. The officials definitely messed up but the KC are equally (if not more) culpable. Team management certainly has to supply the officials with the name of the subs, but those officials are not responsible for swapping the players on/off. If you can find a rule that states this I'd be happy to be corrected.

The referee must restart the play after the sub leaves and there are 15 players (providing no black cards or red cards) KC gave the slip notification given .. Are you saying they should literally pull him off the park?

all the players
coming off/going on to the field of play in acts
of substitution/temporary substitution shall go
through this point, when given permission by
the Referee. Except when there is an injury, the player can leave nearest available place

A Substitution may only be made during a break
in play, after the player has given a substitution
note to the Referee, or in the case of a InterCounty Senior game, to the Sideline Official.
This shall also apply to a Temporary Substitution
allowed under Rule 1.5 (b), Rules of Control -
Injuries: Blood or Suspected Head Injury.
A break in play shall be when the play is stopped
after a score or wide or for a free, sideline puck/
kick or when the Referee has stopped play for
medical attention to an injured player.


There isn't a rule that says you have to pull the player off the pitch, if they followed the above rules and it wasn't adhered to by the ref then that's on him unfortunately..

[03,05,08]

McFaul to score the winner off the bench after being brought on for Danny Tallon who is wrestling with Shane Walsh instead of coming off the field!

I have a feeling McFaul's only chance of scoring a winner in the next 3-4 years is if he lines out for the Crips vs the Bloods in the yard's annual 5 a side.

Mean machine

[OakLeaf]

The rule is clear and states that there are 3 possible scenarios. One - Glen are awarded the game. 2 - A replay. 3. A fine. Based on the severity of the transgression it is clear to me the only fair solution is a fine.

What I've heard before (from someone in the know) is you get a fine for a player who is on his way off but hasn't made it by the time the referee restarts play. In other words not involved in the play at that stage. A replay is when there is an extra player(s) on who is involved in the play but through a genuine mistake as opposed to anything malicious. A forfeit would be similar to the previous example except that it can be proven that the offending team did this on purpose to gain an advantage.

I suspect this will go to a replay but it's the CCCC so anything is possible! Sometimes they make it up as they go along. One thing is for sure, it's yet another example of how our rules are too open to interpretation.

[Armamike]

A fine for KC doesn't help Glen much though. Between KC and the officials it's pretty poor stuff in as high profile a game as an AI final that players didn't come off  the pitch. 

If Glen do get offered a reply, and Crokes refuse to play it then it's hard to see how this is going to get resolved without them having to forfeit.  Both sides lose in that case.

[Milltown Row2]

At no point in this will KC say they didn't have 16 players on the pitch, just forget about Mannion, it doesn't come into it all all, standing on the pitch side of the sideline is nowhere near what was going on.

The problem Glen may have is if Crokes said they followed procedure i.e sub slips and the 4th official let the ref know, but he waved it on (thinking the player had left) it will be a tough one to lose, as in forfeit, which within the overall rules they can lose it.

Croke park will have to wait for the referee's report first, they will not have seen it till after Glen put in an appeal, these things are generally posted or on occasions emailed, but I think this one will be meticulously written up.. Glen will get a copy as will KC so I'd say this is a big fecking headace now..

I really feel for the officials on that side and the ref tbh, because up to that point he'd a brilliant game, and it was a penalty 

Is this procedure documented anywhere?  Where?

I understand what you say about feeling sorry for the ref... BUT

If he was informed about the transgression and didn't act, then I'm sorry, but no matter how good a game he had, this is a massive error in judgement

If he wasn't informed, then the 4th official has made the error as he should have been screaming on the radio to the ref to not restart the game

Controlling substitutions is his primary role

Assuming O'Rourke is a man of his word and he did inform the sideline official at the time, then, between them, the officials should have forced the 45 to be retaken

It would have been slightly controversial at the time, and even more so had Glen scored, but nothing to this shit storm

You would assume that the names came up on the big screen, and on the board because they just didn't come from thin air, Croke have a fourth official and they also have others that link up to the big screen and the whoever looks after the PA system, the ref is mic'd up and that call was made on subs in next break of play (the 45) he'd have known, the assumption is he thought possibly, as he didn't count the 29 players that were all in that area (barring the Glen Keeper) that 14 left the field behind the nets, that's his mistake

The documentation will be the Ref's report.. that is all Croke can go with

[OakLeaf]

The referee must restart the play after the sub leaves and there are 15 players (providing no black cards or red cards) KC gave the slip notification given .. Are you saying they should literally pull him off the park?

all the players
coming off/going on to the field of play in acts
of substitution/temporary substitution shall go
through this point, when given permission by
the Referee. Except when there is an injury, the player can leave nearest available place

A Substitution may only be made during a break
in play, after the player has given a substitution
note to the Referee, or in the case of a InterCounty Senior game, to the Sideline Official.
This shall also apply to a Temporary Substitution
allowed under Rule 1.5 (b), Rules of Control -
Injuries: Blood or Suspected Head Injury.
A break in play shall be when the play is stopped
after a score or wide or for a free, sideline puck/
kick or when the Referee has stopped play for
medical attention to an injured player.


There isn't a rule that says you have to pull the player off the pitch, if they followed the above rules and it wasn't adhered to by the ref then that's on him unfortunately..

As I've indicated before the referee/officials definitely need to shoulder some of the blame, but not all of it. None of what you've listed above relieves of the KC's management responsibility to ensure that they have 15 players on the field. The referee must give permission for the sub, and yes he should not restart play until the replaced player is off. The sideline officials have the responsibility to ensure that the subs take place from the technical zone. It's clear the referee messed up and I'm not arguing that. What I am objecting to is you putting the entire blame on the ref. That is clearly wrong. To do that is absolving the KC management of all responsibility.

[APM]

At no point in this will KC say they didn't have 16 players on the pitch, just forget about Mannion, it doesn't come into it all all, standing on the pitch side of the sideline is nowhere near what was going on.

The problem Glen may have is if Crokes said they followed procedure i.e sub slips and the 4th official let the ref know, but he waved it on (thinking the player had left) it will be a tough one to lose, as in forfeit, which within the overall rules they can lose it.

Croke park will have to wait for the referee's report first, they will not have seen it till after Glen put in an appeal, these things are generally posted or on occasions emailed, but I think this one will be meticulously written up.. Glen will get a copy as will KC so I'd say this is a big fecking headace now..

I really feel for the officials on that side and the ref tbh, because up to that point he'd a brilliant game, and it was a penalty 

Is this procedure documented anywhere?  Where?

I understand what you say about feeling sorry for the ref... BUT

If he was informed about the transgression and didn't act, then I'm sorry, but no matter how good a game he had, this is a massive error in judgement

If he wasn't informed, then the 4th official has made the error as he should have been screaming on the radio to the ref to not restart the game

Controlling substitutions is his primary role

Assuming O'Rourke is a man of his word and he did inform the sideline official at the time, then, between them, the officials should have forced the 45 to be retaken

It would have been slightly controversial at the time, and even more so had Glen scored, but nothing to this shit storm

The rule is clear and states that there are 3 possible scenarios. One - Glen are awarded the game. 2 - A replay. 3. A fine. Based on the severity of the transgression it is clear to me the only fair solution is a fine.

Let's look at what is at stake in the final minutes of a football match.  This is where games are won and lost as Kilcoo showed against Kilmacud last year.
Let's throw the same situation into another scenario.

2017 AI Final: Dublin Mayo. May 1pt with for the last play. They have a kickout.
https://youtu.be/iYBFoI-fznE?t=6134

Dublin apply a full court press.  Every Mayo player is being tightly marked, or illegally held.

Now let us imagine, Dublin make a substitute, but substituted player stays on the pitch. It's hypothetical, but do I believe that they didn't do it on purpose - do I give the benefit of the doubt?  An honest mistake in the heat of the moment?  Blame the referee, linesman, fourth official?  Or is it the worst kind of cynicism with a £5,000 fine coming the winner's way, but no way are they going to lose that kickout?

Either way, the loosing team robbed of an opportunity to equalise.  These moments are the essence of the game.  A whole season or career distilled into those few seconds. 

There is no way a fine is the appropriate penalty, because you cannot give the benefit of the doubt in this scenario.  All you do with a fine is encourage cynicism. 

[Armagh18]

The rule is clear and states that there are 3 possible scenarios. One - Glen are awarded the game. 2 - A replay. 3. A fine. Based on the severity of the transgression it is clear to me the only fair solution is a fine.

What I've heard before (from someone in the know) is you get a fine for a player who is on his way off but hasn't made it by the time the referee restarts play. In other words not involved in the play at that stage. A replay is when there is an extra player(s) on who is involved in the play but through a genuine mistake as opposed to anything malicious. A forfeit would be similar to the previous example except that it can be proven that the offending team did this on purpose to gain an advantage.

I suspect this will go to a replay but it's the CCCC so anything is possible! Sometimes they make it up as they go along. One thing is for sure, it's yet another example of how our rules are too open to interpretation.

That would be the common sense application of the rules anyway!

[Milltown Row2]

The referee must restart the play after the sub leaves and there are 15 players (providing no black cards or red cards) KC gave the slip notification given .. Are you saying they should literally pull him off the park?

all the players
coming off/going on to the field of play in acts
of substitution/temporary substitution shall go
through this point, when given permission by
the Referee. Except when there is an injury, the player can leave nearest available place

A Substitution may only be made during a break
in play, after the player has given a substitution
note to the Referee, or in the case of a InterCounty Senior game, to the Sideline Official.
This shall also apply to a Temporary Substitution
allowed under Rule 1.5 (b), Rules of Control -
Injuries: Blood or Suspected Head Injury.
A break in play shall be when the play is stopped
after a score or wide or for a free, sideline puck/
kick or when the Referee has stopped play for
medical attention to an injured player.


There isn't a rule that says you have to pull the player off the pitch, if they followed the above rules and it wasn't adhered to by the ref then that's on him unfortunately..

As I've indicated before the referee/officials definitely need to shoulder some of the blame, but not all of it. None of what you've listed above relieves of the KC's management responsibility to ensure that they have 15 players on the field. The referee must give permission for the sub, and yes he should not restart play until the replaced player is off. The sideline officials have the responsibility to ensure that the subs take place from the technical zone. It's clear the referee messed up and I'm not arguing that. What I am objecting to is you putting the entire blame on the ref. That is clearly wrong. To do that is absolving the KC management of all responsibility.

KC can't restart the game, we are talking 30 to 45 seconds here, not minutes whether this extra information (sub's player hasn't left pitch yet) was given to the ref we don't know. But the reality is unfortunately this player, didn't leave or knew he had to leave and wasn't informed by the player coming on, as he positioned himself elsewhere.

Now you can huff and puff about KC breaking the rules, but they'll have really only broke the rules if they sent on a player with no notification to the officials!