Poll
Question:
AI club final controversy
Option 1: Yes - Typical Dubs up to no good as usual
votes: 30
Option 2: No - Typical Nordies causing mischief as usual
votes: 21
Option 3: Should not have to. GAA HQ should already have called a replay
votes: 106
Let's hear the thoughts of the only opinions that matter - The Board!
If I were on the committee I'd ask the players as a collective to decide what way they want to take it.
If I were a player? Do I honestly think it was the winning and losing of the game? Probably not. Move broke down too early. Do I think Mannion and Walsh could be kept as quiet 2nd time around? Probably not. Did my team underperform badly on the day and have a much better chance of winning next time? No, not really.
I don't *think* I would ask for a replay. But then I'm not in their mental space right now.
Edit: ahh. My memory is crap. Move didn't break down that early. Would the marking of Conor glass have changed with a man less in small square?
Feck. Harder decision now. Ahhh. Probably still no for a replay, but very much depends what way the wind is blowing!
They shouldn't be in this position. Rule 6.44 says if the rules are breached a replay, forfeiture or fine are the options.
Tough one!
Can anyone give me an example of this having happened before? In that they (Croke Park) have agreed to a replay after steps climbed, speeches made, trophies presented, songs sung etc?
I think it unlikely. That said, Glen do have the right to ask/appeal!
Big fat fine me thinks!
As Seafoid says, it should not be their decision. If rules were broken, then there should be a specified penalty. Glen's wishes should be irrelevant.
Once again the GAA is a f**king joke when it comes to rules and discipline.
There are no rules or regulations. Just vague guidelines and recommendations and fuzzy maths which clubs and counties laugh at when yet again gettting themselves off the hook.
Quote from: DearyMe on January 24, 2023, 11:53:43 AM
Tough one!
Can anyone give me an example of this having happened before? In that they (Croke Park) have agreed to a replay after steps climbed, speeches made, trophies presented, songs sung etc?
I think it unlikely. That said, Glen do have the right to ask/appeal!
Big fat fine me thinks!
Connacht minor final Ros V Galway, the year cake took the penalty when he shouldn't have. Pretty sure it was 1989! Not an all ireland, but it was a final. Roscommon captain got the cup and later in the day the game was 'awarded' to galway. Subsequently, a replay was agreed and Ros won the replay (AET in Tuam if my memory serves me correctly!)
There are other replays - Offaly V clare hurling & Armagh V laois football championship but I don't recall any other final being played
Quote from: westbound on January 24, 2023, 12:03:09 PM
Quote from: DearyMe on January 24, 2023, 11:53:43 AM
Tough one!
Can anyone give me an example of this having happened before? In that they (Croke Park) have agreed to a replay after steps climbed, speeches made, trophies presented, songs sung etc?
I think it unlikely. That said, Glen do have the right to ask/appeal!
Big fat fine me thinks!
Connacht minor final Ros V Galway, the year cake took the penalty when he shouldn't have. Pretty sure it was 1989! Not an all ireland, but it was a final. Roscommon captain got the cup and later in the day the game was 'awarded' to galway. Subsequently, a replay was agreed and Ros won the replay (AET in Tuam if my memory serves me correctly!)
There are other replays - Offaly V clare hurling & Armagh V laois football championship but I don't recall any other final being played
Fair! Cheers
If it were up to me I'd consider three things
(1) Was it intentional-ie pulled a fast one hoping no one would notice
(2) Did it make a material difference in the final sequence of play
(3) Did the officials have the ability at the time to intervene but didn't
If the answer to any or all questions is yes-I would be asking for a replay
Quote from: whitey on January 24, 2023, 12:08:00 PM
If it were up to me I'd consider three things
(1) Was it intentional-ie pulled a fast one hoping no one would notice
(2) Did it make a material difference in the final sequence of play
(3) Did the officials have the ability at the time to intervene but didn't
If the answer to any or all questions is yes-I would be asking for a replay
1. Hard to say only they know themselves.
2. Impossible to say how it would have went without the extra man.
3. Absolutely.
Theres enough here for a replay. Still can't see it happening.
1. I don't think so.
2. Again I don't think so.
3. Yes.
They shouldn't have to, GAA should have ordered replay. But if it is being put in their court, then they absolutely need to object.
Quote from: DearyMe on January 24, 2023, 11:53:43 AM
Tough one!
Can anyone give me an example of this having happened before? In that they (Croke Park) have agreed to a replay after steps climbed, speeches made, trophies presented, songs sung etc?
I think it unlikely. That said, Glen do have the right to ask/appeal!
Big fat fine me thinks!
Meath Antrim hurlers replayed 3 or 4 years ago after a scoring error
Meath collected the cup and match was replayed a week or two later. Meath won again
They absolutely have to object, whether they play the replay or not is another question and I can see both sides of that argument
Quote from: smort on January 24, 2023, 12:23:25 PM
They absolutely have to object, whether they play the replay or not is another question and I can see both sides of that argument
I'd say they have to object as well for the simple fact it will force the GAA into making a call on it. As you say who knows if they will accept a replay especially going by MOR comments after the game. I'd imagine his opinion on it will have a major bearing on what they do IF a replay was offered.
Quote from: square_ball on January 24, 2023, 12:28:21 PM
Quote from: smort on January 24, 2023, 12:23:25 PM
They absolutely have to object, whether they play the replay or not is another question and I can see both sides of that argument
I'd say they have to object as well for the simple fact it will force the GAA into making a call on it. As you say who knows if they will accept a replay especially going by MOR comments after the game. I'd imagine his opinion on it will have a major bearing on what they do IF a replay was offered.
Hard to know. It'll be players at the end of the day, he's not a Glen man.
Quote from: J70 on January 24, 2023, 11:56:07 AM
As Seafoid says, it should not be their decision. If rules were broken, then there should be a specified penalty. Glen's wishes should be irrelevant.
Once again the GAA is a f**king joke when it comes to rules and discipline.
There are no rules or regulations. Just vague guidelines and recommendations and fuzzy maths which clubs and counties laugh at when yet again gettting themselves off the hook.
It's worse than that. They aren't even in control of their own rule book.
That's sports administration 101. That's low babies.
Very loaded answers lol.
Absolutely. Officials were alerted to the error and instead of doing the correct thing and sorting it out there and then they just put their hands in their pockets and kicked the ground. F**k em, I wouldn't be letting them off the hook that handy.
Quote from: whitey on January 24, 2023, 12:08:00 PM
If it were up to me I'd consider three things
(1) Was it intentional-ie pulled a fast one hoping no one would notice
(2) Did it make a material difference in the final sequence of play
(3) Did the officials have the ability at the time to intervene but didn't
If the answer to any or all questions is yes-I would be asking for a replay
1. Impossible to answer but irrelevant, that's why rules are the rules.
2. Indirectly, absolutely but again irrelevant. Rules are the rules and 45 had to be retaken.
3. Yes
Quote from: square_ball on January 24, 2023, 12:28:21 PM
Quote from: smort on January 24, 2023, 12:23:25 PM
They absolutely have to object, whether they play the replay or not is another question and I can see both sides of that argument
I'd say they have to object as well for the simple fact it will force the GAA into making a call on it. As you say who knows if they will accept a replay especially going by MOR comments after the game. I'd imagine his opinion on it will have a major bearing on what they do IF a replay was offered.
The thing to say straight after the match was that it was up to the GAA to decide. He wasn't in a position to say anything insightful given the situation.
After all that has happened in the meantime he couldn't they were beaten fair and square.
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 24, 2023, 12:40:50 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 24, 2023, 12:08:00 PM
If it were up to me I'd consider three things
(1) Was it intentional-ie pulled a fast one hoping no one would notice
(2) Did it make a material difference in the final sequence of play
(3) Did the officials have the ability at the time to intervene but didn't
If the answer to any or all questions is yes-I would be asking for a replay
1. Impossible to answer but irrelevant, that's why rules are the rules.
2. Indirectly, absolutely but again irrelevant. Rules are the rules and 45 had to be retaken.
3. Yes
The commotion at the end probably worked at like this...
4th official "Ref I've two subs to come on the next break in play" Ref "grand get them off and and on quickly as time is up" 4th official " ones not fully off the pitch yet" ref looks across and see's Manion at the sideline and says "aye I see him there at the side, it's on the blow" 4th Official "think there is another one still to come off" Ref "I'm blowing up anyways, all good"
The ref to be fair would not have noticed that 16 men were actually still involved in the game for that final play, the 4th official probably thought the player went off behind the goals as the sub ran on.
Was the rules broken? Yes, was it on purpose 95% sure it wasn't. Are Glen wrong to appeal? No. And the main question did it actually change the result, did it have any bearing on the game? No
Fine clubs, and move on
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 12:50:53 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 24, 2023, 12:40:50 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 24, 2023, 12:08:00 PM
If it were up to me I'd consider three things
(1) Was it intentional-ie pulled a fast one hoping no one would notice
(2) Did it make a material difference in the final sequence of play
(3) Did the officials have the ability at the time to intervene but didn't
If the answer to any or all questions is yes-I would be asking for a replay
1. Impossible to answer but irrelevant, that's why rules are the rules.
2. Indirectly, absolutely but again irrelevant. Rules are the rules and 45 had to be retaken.
3. Yes
The commotion at the end probably worked at like this...
4th official "Ref I've two subs to come on the next break in play" Ref "grand get them off and and on quickly as time is up" 4th official " ones not fully off the pitch yet" ref looks across and see's Manion at the sideline and says "aye I see him there at the side, it's on the blow" 4th Official "think there is another one still to come off" Ref "I'm blowing up anyways, all good"
The ref to be fair would not have noticed that 16 men were actually still involved in the game for that final play, the 4th official probably thought the player went off behind the goals as the sub ran on.
Was the rules broken? Yes, was it on purpose 95% sure it wasn't. Are Glen wrong to appeal? No. And the main question did it actually change the result, did it have any bearing on the game? No
Fine clubs, and move on
How can you say that when the extra man was on the line and that affects the whole defensive structure of the team outward from there? Does a player on the 20 drop back to cover that goal line position if the 16th man isn't there, freeing up a route to goal? You can't say yes, you can't say no. It's why we can't know exactly what would have happened without him, and why a replay must be ordered. Otherwise what's to stop this happening again and accepting the fine?
While waiting for Wattys to decide, how many Derry clubs can you name in 30 seconds?
https://mobile.twitter.com/juniorbthings/status/1616159454067572760/
A player would always have been in that position had no.14 not been, it's the basics of managing your line.
Of course that means one less person of the 15 not on the 14 yard line not a clear route on goal, that's clutching especially considering the actual clear routes they had to goal but missed, but had he got a shot off on target then yes there is proper interference.
My view is Glen should put the ball back into Croke Parks court and see what happens
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 12:50:53 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 24, 2023, 12:40:50 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 24, 2023, 12:08:00 PM
If it were up to me I'd consider three things
(1) Was it intentional-ie pulled a fast one hoping no one would notice
(2) Did it make a material difference in the final sequence of play
(3) Did the officials have the ability at the time to intervene but didn't
If the answer to any or all questions is yes-I would be asking for a replay
1. Impossible to answer but irrelevant, that's why rules are the rules.
2. Indirectly, absolutely but again irrelevant. Rules are the rules and 45 had to be retaken.
3. Yes
The commotion at the end probably worked at like this...
4th official "Ref I've two subs to come on the next break in play" Ref "grand get them off and and on quickly as time is up" 4th official " ones not fully off the pitch yet" ref looks across and see's Manion at the sideline and says "aye I see him there at the side, it's on the blow" 4th Official "think there is another one still to come off" Ref "I'm blowing up anyways, all good"
The ref to be fair would not have noticed that 16 men were actually still involved in the game for that final play, the 4th official probably thought the player went off behind the goals as the sub ran on.
Was the rules broken? Yes, was it on purpose 95% sure it wasn't. Are Glen wrong to appeal? No. And the main question did it actually change the result, did it have any bearing on the game? No
Fine clubs, and move on
Bullshit. When does that ever happen?
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 24, 2023, 01:03:22 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 12:50:53 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 24, 2023, 12:40:50 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 24, 2023, 12:08:00 PM
If it were up to me I'd consider three things
(1) Was it intentional-ie pulled a fast one hoping no one would notice
(2) Did it make a material difference in the final sequence of play
(3) Did the officials have the ability at the time to intervene but didn't
If the answer to any or all questions is yes-I would be asking for a replay
1. Impossible to answer but irrelevant, that's why rules are the rules.
2. Indirectly, absolutely but again irrelevant. Rules are the rules and 45 had to be retaken.
3. Yes
The commotion at the end probably worked at like this...
4th official "Ref I've two subs to come on the next break in play" Ref "grand get them off and and on quickly as time is up" 4th official " ones not fully off the pitch yet" ref looks across and see's Manion at the sideline and says "aye I see him there at the side, it's on the blow" 4th Official "think there is another one still to come off" Ref "I'm blowing up anyways, all good"
The ref to be fair would not have noticed that 16 men were actually still involved in the game for that final play, the 4th official probably thought the player went off behind the goals as the sub ran on.
Was the rules broken? Yes, was it on purpose 95% sure it wasn't. Are Glen wrong to appeal? No. And the main question did it actually change the result, did it have any bearing on the game? No
Fine clubs, and move on
Bullshit. When does that ever happen?
Happens loads of times boys injured off side of pitch getting seen too, have seen loads of players walk behind the net in games, you might not see as many as I do but that's regular enough
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 01:03:00 PM
A player would always have been in that position had no.14 not been, it's the basics of managing your line.
Of course that means one less person of the 15 not on the 14 yard line not a clear route on goal, that's clutching especially considering the actual clear routes they had to goal but missed, but had he got a shot off on target then yes there is proper interference.
My view is Glen should put the ball back into Croke Parks court and see what happens
It's not clutching. The fact is you can't know, and one less player out the field would have made some difference. How much? Who knows. But that's the point. It absolutely had some effect on the field, and that's why a replay is needed.
In the immediate aftermath of the game I'd have said no.
Listening to commentary since and having seen what the actual rules state, then absolutely yes.
Rules are rules.
There shouldn't even be a scenario where the rules only apply in certain subjective circumstances.
Follow the rules to the letter, I'd apply the same logic to disciplinary matters.
The main issue here, as I see it, is that the Gaa have been made aware of a breach of their own rules and are deciding not to bother unless the aggrieved party decide to ask them to.
That's ridiculous.
Replay should be offered.
Glen to win it.
Quote from: Dreadnought on January 24, 2023, 01:08:11 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 01:03:00 PM
A player would always have been in that position had no.14 not been, it's the basics of managing your line.
Of course that means one less person of the 15 not on the 14 yard line not a clear route on goal, that's clutching especially considering the actual clear routes they had to goal but missed, but had he got a shot off on target then yes there is proper interference.
My view is Glen should put the ball back into Croke Parks court and see what happens
It's not clutching. The fact is you can't know, and one less player out the field would have made some difference. How much? Who knows. But that's the point. It absolutely had some effect on the field, and that's why a replay is needed.
It doesn't actually matter.
Rule was broken which is the only fact that matters.
The should have would have commentary is impossible to prove or disprove.
The rule was broke, for what ever reason, apply the sanction as dictated by the rule book.
Quote from: Dreadnought on January 24, 2023, 01:08:11 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 01:03:00 PM
A player would always have been in that position had no.14 not been, it's the basics of managing your line.
Of course that means one less person of the 15 not on the 14 yard line not a clear route on goal, that's clutching especially considering the actual clear routes they had to goal but missed, but had he got a shot off on target then yes there is proper interference.
My view is Glen should put the ball back into Croke Parks court and see what happens
It's not clutching. The fact is you can't know, and one less player out the field would have made some difference. How much? Who knows. But that's the point. It absolutely had some effect on the field, and that's why a replay is needed.
There are 3 outcome, KC lose the final Glen win, Replay ordered or a fine, the replay isn't just the only option
Part of the problem is that players don't remain on the sideline until a player comes off. A lot of the time it's like the old days where players ran on with a slip of paper to the ref before a player slinks off
replay is the only viable option though, forfeiture is too harsh, fine is too lenient. only leaves the replay
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 01:15:24 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on January 24, 2023, 01:08:11 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 01:03:00 PM
A player would always have been in that position had no.14 not been, it's the basics of managing your line.
Of course that means one less person of the 15 not on the 14 yard line not a clear route on goal, that's clutching especially considering the actual clear routes they had to goal but missed, but had he got a shot off on target then yes there is proper interference.
My view is Glen should put the ball back into Croke Parks court and see what happens
It's not clutching. The fact is you can't know, and one less player out the field would have made some difference. How much? Who knows. But that's the point. It absolutely had some effect on the field, and that's why a replay is needed.
There are 3 outcome, KC lose the final Glen win, Replay ordered or a fine, the replay isn't just the only option
fine would have been acceptable if it was just Mannion on the pitch (probably would nevwr have been mentioned) I doubt anyone wants to see the game given to Glen. Replay is by far most likely option.
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 24, 2023, 01:24:23 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 01:15:24 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on January 24, 2023, 01:08:11 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 01:03:00 PM
A player would always have been in that position had no.14 not been, it's the basics of managing your line.
Of course that means one less person of the 15 not on the 14 yard line not a clear route on goal, that's clutching especially considering the actual clear routes they had to goal but missed, but had he got a shot off on target then yes there is proper interference.
My view is Glen should put the ball back into Croke Parks court and see what happens
It's not clutching. The fact is you can't know, and one less player out the field would have made some difference. How much? Who knows. But that's the point. It absolutely had some effect on the field, and that's why a replay is needed.
There are 3 outcome, KC lose the final Glen win, Replay ordered or a fine, the replay isn't just the only option
fine would have been acceptable if it was just Mannion on the pitch (probably would nevwr have been mentioned) I doubt anyone wants to see the game given to Glen. Replay is by far most likely option.
It probably is the fair option, but would we be annoyed if KC lost the game and Glen awarded the title? As they broke the rules and Croke can make an example of them by following the rules
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 01:15:24 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on January 24, 2023, 01:08:11 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 01:03:00 PM
A player would always have been in that position had no.14 not been, it's the basics of managing your line.
Of course that means one less person of the 15 not on the 14 yard line not a clear route on goal, that's clutching especially considering the actual clear routes they had to goal but missed, but had he got a shot off on target then yes there is proper interference.
My view is Glen should put the ball back into Croke Parks court and see what happens
It's not clutching. The fact is you can't know, and one less player out the field would have made some difference. How much? Who knows. But that's the point. It absolutely had some effect on the field, and that's why a replay is needed.
There are 3 outcome, KC lose the final Glen win, Replay ordered or a fine, the replay isn't just the only option
There are 4 options per rule 6.44
the 3 you mention plus 'forfeiture of the game without award of the game to the oppossing team'. This one is only possible if GAA HQ step in them selves. If Glen object, then this isn't a possibility.
In my opinion, taking the game from KC and/or giving it to glen makes no sense. Also, if we believe (which I do) that this was an accidental breach of the rules by KC, then fining them (for what is ultimately an error by the officials) makes no sense.
It's a replay or nothing in my eyes.
I have to say, my initial reaction after the game was let it go, and I think if I was a player I would have to look at it and say that we had 60+mins to win the game and we weren't good enough to win without a possible last minute hail mary goal. So don't object. I'm sure there are several others in my club that would disagree.
BUT, why do we have a rule book at all if GAA HQ aren't going to implement it? HQ should be implementing this rule (and every rule).
The anticipation is killing me . . . it's like VAR on steroids!!!
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 01:28:57 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 24, 2023, 01:24:23 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 01:15:24 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on January 24, 2023, 01:08:11 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 01:03:00 PM
A player would always have been in that position had no.14 not been, it's the basics of managing your line.
Of course that means one less person of the 15 not on the 14 yard line not a clear route on goal, that's clutching especially considering the actual clear routes they had to goal but missed, but had he got a shot off on target then yes there is proper interference.
My view is Glen should put the ball back into Croke Parks court and see what happens
It's not clutching. The fact is you can't know, and one less player out the field would have made some difference. How much? Who knows. But that's the point. It absolutely had some effect on the field, and that's why a replay is needed.
There are 3 outcome, KC lose the final Glen win, Replay ordered or a fine, the replay isn't just the only option
fine would have been acceptable if it was just Mannion on the pitch (probably would nevwr have been mentioned) I doubt anyone wants to see the game given to Glen. Replay is by far most likely option.
It probably is the fair option, but would we be annoyed if KC lost the game and Glen awarded the title? As they broke the rules and Croke can make an example of them by following the rules
Highly doubt there is anyone who would want the game awarded to Glen, not even themselves
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 12:50:53 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 24, 2023, 12:40:50 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 24, 2023, 12:08:00 PM
If it were up to me I'd consider three things
(1) Was it intentional-ie pulled a fast one hoping no one would notice
(2) Did it make a material difference in the final sequence of play
(3) Did the officials have the ability at the time to intervene but didn't
If the answer to any or all questions is yes-I would be asking for a replay
1. Impossible to answer but irrelevant, that's why rules are the rules.
2. Indirectly, absolutely but again irrelevant. Rules are the rules and 45 had to be retaken.
3. Yes
The commotion at the end probably worked at like this...
4th official "Ref I've two subs to come on the next break in play" Ref "grand get them off and and on quickly as time is up" 4th official " ones not fully off the pitch yet" ref looks across and see's Manion at the sideline and says "aye I see him there at the side, it's on the blow" 4th Official "think there is another one still to come off" Ref "I'm blowing up anyways, all good"
The ref to be fair would not have noticed that 16 men were actually still involved in the game for that final play, the 4th official probably thought the player went off behind the goals as the sub ran on.
Was the rules broken? Yes, was it on purpose 95% sure it wasn't. Are Glen wrong to appeal? No. And the main question did it actually change the result, did it have any bearing on the game? No
Fine clubs, and move on
You can't say it had no effect because there is no counterfactual and because it was a one score game.
And 16 is against the rules.
If Ballyhale had done it there would have been no case because it was a 3 score game.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 12:50:53 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 24, 2023, 12:40:50 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 24, 2023, 12:08:00 PM
If it were up to me I'd consider three things
(1) Was it intentional-ie pulled a fast one hoping no one would notice
(2) Did it make a material difference in the final sequence of play
(3) Did the officials have the ability at the time to intervene but didn't
If the answer to any or all questions is yes-I would be asking for a replay
1. Impossible to answer but irrelevant, that's why rules are the rules.
2. Indirectly, absolutely but again irrelevant. Rules are the rules and 45 had to be retaken.
3. Yes
The commotion at the end probably worked at like this...
4th official "Ref I've two subs to come on the next break in play" Ref "grand get them off and and on quickly as time is up" 4th official " ones not fully off the pitch yet" ref looks across and see's Manion at the sideline and says "aye I see him there at the side, it's on the blow" 4th Official "think there is another one still to come off" Ref "I'm blowing up anyways, all good"
The ref to be fair would not have noticed that 16 men were actually still involved in the game for that final play, the 4th official probably thought the player went off behind the goals as the sub ran on.
Was the rules broken? Yes, was it on purpose 95% sure it wasn't. Are Glen wrong to appeal? No. And the main question did it actually change the result, did it have any bearing on the game? No
Fine clubs, and move on
You're being very kind to the ref and officials here. If the Glen management are not telling porkies the officials were notified of the error at the time.
We cannot know if the rule was broken on purpose. If it was, then forfeiture of the game would be the appropriate penalty reading between the lines in rule book.
And how can you possibly say it had no bearing on result. 45 should have been retaken. Glen had just created a goal chance. KC literally lost last years final with last kick of game. There was a minute to go when the original 45 was awarded.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 12:50:53 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 24, 2023, 12:40:50 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 24, 2023, 12:08:00 PM
If it were up to me I'd consider three things
(1) Was it intentional-ie pulled a fast one hoping no one would notice
(2) Did it make a material difference in the final sequence of play
(3) Did the officials have the ability at the time to intervene but didn't
If the answer to any or all questions is yes-I would be asking for a replay
1. Impossible to answer but irrelevant, that's why rules are the rules.
2. Indirectly, absolutely but again irrelevant. Rules are the rules and 45 had to be retaken.
3. Yes
The commotion at the end probably worked at like this...
4th official "Ref I've two subs to come on the next break in play" Ref "grand get them off and and on quickly as time is up" 4th official " ones not fully off the pitch yet" ref looks across and see's Manion at the sideline and says "aye I see him there at the side, it's on the blow" 4th Official "think there is another one still to come off" Ref "I'm blowing up anyways, all good"
The ref to be fair would not have noticed that 16 men were actually still involved in the game for that final play, the 4th official probably thought the player went off behind the goals as the sub ran on.
Was the rules broken? Yes, was it on purpose 95% sure it wasn't. Are Glen wrong to appeal? No. And the main question did it actually change the result, did it have any bearing on the game? No
Fine clubs, and move on
Horse shit. Totally wrong.
Of course it had a bearing on the game.
How much of a bearing - well none of us can or will ever know.
In my view, Kilmacud were shithousing by putting on 3 subs to cause as much delay as possible in the 62nd minute. It backfired as the officials messed up by not ensuring the lads went off the pitch in the confusion surrounding so many subs in such a short space of time. Glenn are the only innocent party and shouldn't be put in the position whereby the weight of the decision is placed on them and will face the accusations of being sore losers if they appeal. I think they definitely must appeal and make the GAA officials take responsibility for their own mistakes and own lack of leadership in the aftermath.
An Ghleann should definitely object to the spelling
An Glenn is different
https://youtu.be/qZ9qZCrlZ_w
Quote from: BennyHarp on January 24, 2023, 02:04:57 PM
In my view, Kilmacud were shithousing by putting on 3 subs to cause as much delay as possible in the 62nd minute. It backfired as the officials messed up by not ensuring the lads went off the pitch in the confusion surrounding so many subs in such a short space of time. Glenn are the only innocent party and shouldn't be put in the position whereby the weight of the decision is placed on them and will face the accusations of being sore losers if they appeal. I think they definitely must appeal and make the GAA officials take responsibility for their own mistakes and own lack of leadership in the aftermath.
I feel a bit sorry for KC tbh. They're entitled to make subs. It's one they desperately wanted after last year. I'm sure they'd much rather have defended that 45 again than go through all this sour taste and possible replay. But Glen were wronged, there's no question. Rule book gives 3 penalties. Forfeiture, replay or fine. Forfeiture would be way too harsh. Fine maybe too lenient. Replay, again a real pain and harsh on Crokes but ticks a lot of boxes.
Quote from: BennyHarp on January 24, 2023, 02:04:57 PM
In my view, Kilmacud were shithousing by putting on 3 subs to cause as much delay as possible in the 62nd minute. It backfired as the officials messed up by not ensuring the lads went off the pitch in the confusion surrounding so many subs in such a short space of time. Glenn are the only innocent party and shouldn't be put in the position whereby the weight of the decision is placed on them and will face the accusations of being sore losers if they appeal. I think they definitely must appeal and make the GAA officials take responsibility for their own mistakes and own lack of leadership in the aftermath.
It was definite shithousery. I imagine they were paranoid about a late goal from a high, lobbing ball.
Yeah I agree. KC get a lot of flak because of Walsh but the two things should not be confused. It's not really their fault this either. Yes they were f**king round with subs to kill time but who doesn't do that at that critical stage of games.
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 24, 2023, 02:31:55 PM
Yeah I agree. KC get a lot of flak because of Walsh but the two things should not be confused. It's not really their fault this either. Yes they were f**king round with subs to kill time but who doesn't do that at that critical stage of games.
It's the fault of the KC player who was substituted and ended still standing on the goaline...
Begs the question as to whose responsibility it is to tell the player to leave the field, the match officials or the team management?
This is a poorly posed poll.
Yes or no
Quote from: johnnycool on January 24, 2023, 02:34:22 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 24, 2023, 02:31:55 PM
Yeah I agree. KC get a lot of flak because of Walsh but the two things should not be confused. It's not really their fault this either. Yes they were f**king round with subs to kill time but who doesn't do that at that critical stage of games.
It's the fault of the KC player who was substituted and ended still standing on the goaline...
Begs the question as to whose responsibility it is to tell the player to leave the field, the match officials or the team management?
It's only his fault if he knew he was subbed.
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 24, 2023, 02:42:48 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on January 24, 2023, 02:34:22 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 24, 2023, 02:31:55 PM
Yeah I agree. KC get a lot of flak because of Walsh but the two things should not be confused. It's not really their fault this either. Yes they were f**king round with subs to kill time but who doesn't do that at that critical stage of games.
It's the fault of the KC player who was substituted and ended still standing on the goaline...
Begs the question as to whose responsibility it is to tell the player to leave the field, the match officials or the team management?
It's only his fault if he knew he was subbed.
Hence my second point.
how often i wonder where this happens in non televised games.
I thought at the time of the subs there looked to be real confusion. Think the camera was on Mannion and he was zoned on defending. Looked a bit shocked when he realised he was coming off. Don't know about the other lad. Officials have a lot to answer for on what followed but as for the incident itself, the onus is on the team itself to carry out the subs correctly. If not, then after that the referee should take action.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 01:15:24 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on January 24, 2023, 01:08:11 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 01:03:00 PM
A player would always have been in that position had no.14 not been, it's the basics of managing your line.
Of course that means one less person of the 15 not on the 14 yard line not a clear route on goal, that's clutching especially considering the actual clear routes they had to goal but missed, but had he got a shot off on target then yes there is proper interference.
My view is Glen should put the ball back into Croke Parks court and see what happens
It's not clutching. The fact is you can't know, and one less player out the field would have made some difference. How much? Who knows. But that's the point. It absolutely had some effect on the field, and that's why a replay is needed.
There are 3 outcome, KC lose the final Glen win, Replay ordered or a fine, the replay isn't just the only option
I get that, hence why everyone is going for the moderate option, the replay, which has been used in the few examples before. Fine is too lenient (especially a club of that size who could absorb a fine easily - will big clubs do this and small clubs not be able to in future?), awarding to Glen is too harsh. Replay is the goldilocks zone here, and is really the only option at this stage.
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 24, 2023, 02:42:48 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on January 24, 2023, 02:34:22 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 24, 2023, 02:31:55 PM
Yeah I agree. KC get a lot of flak because of Walsh but the two things should not be confused. It's not really their fault this either. Yes they were f**king round with subs to kill time but who doesn't do that at that critical stage of games.
It's the fault of the KC player who was substituted and ended still standing on the goaline...
Begs the question as to whose responsibility it is to tell the player to leave the field, the match officials or the team management?
It's only his fault if he knew he was subbed.
When did it change? I thought substitutes ran onto the pitch and told the player substituted that they were being substituted .
Not exactly a reliable method.
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 24, 2023, 03:17:36 PM
Not exactly a reliable method.
It has worked for some time. Or do the GAA need to add rules about substitutions to the rule book?
I would love to hear from KC. Did they realise there was a problem? Was it an initiative from Mullin ?
Was it tactical?
Quote from: seafoid on January 24, 2023, 03:21:49 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 24, 2023, 03:17:36 PM
Not exactly a reliable method.
It has worked for some time. Or do the GAA need to add rules about substitutions to the rule book?
I would love to hear from KC. Did they realise there was a problem? Was it an initiative from Mullin ?
Was it tactical?
Hardly gonna come out and say it was a tactic are they? They'll just day in the confusion/heat if the moment he didnt realise he was off.
End of the day if I were Glen, I'd be serving the ball back to the GAA with no qualms and let them make the decision. Fine or replay. Forfeiture would be out of the question you'd feel.
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 24, 2023, 03:39:26 PM
End of the day if I were Glen, I'd be serving the ball back to the GAA with no qualms and let them make the decision. Fine or replay. Forfeiture would be out of the question you'd feel.
Glen wouldn't want a forfeiture.
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 24, 2023, 02:31:55 PM
Yeah I agree. KC get a lot of flak because of Walsh but the two things should not be confused. It's not really their fault this either. Yes they were f**king round with subs to kill time but who doesn't do that at that critical stage of games.
The current mess doesn't suit them either
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 24, 2023, 03:41:26 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 24, 2023, 03:39:26 PM
End of the day if I were Glen, I'd be serving the ball back to the GAA with no qualms and let them make the decision. Fine or replay. Forfeiture would be out of the question you'd feel.
Glen wouldn't want a forfeiture.
I don't think anybody would, can't be on table anyway unless KC admit it was deliberate. If Glen do put in complaint I wonder how likely is the fine option.
Remember the team from Cavan appealing the Ulster Minor club result due to Ballinderry fielding a player who was too young.
Same happened with Creggan in an AI junior final maybe a dozen years ago. I can't mind anything that came from it.
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 24, 2023, 04:06:32 PM
Same happened with Creggan in an AI junior final maybe a dozen years ago. I can't mind anything that came from it.
Complaint was submitted to late.
Glenn are being thrown under the bus here in my opinion. There's no doubt that having an extra defender in a crowded area where a crucial 45 is being defended is an advantage. Match should be replayed. If there's a fine it should be placed on the incompetent officials.
If for whatever reason CLG Watty Grahams pass on the option of making an appeal, the GAA should take over and implement their own rulebook by ordering a replay.
One alternative would be to cancel the competition. 2021 was "cancelled due to the COVID-19 pandemic".
2023 could be "cancelled due to shithousery."
Quote from: AustinPowers on January 24, 2023, 01:17:56 PM
Part of the problem is that players don't remain on the sideline until a player comes off. A lot of the time it's like the old days where players ran on with a slip of paper to the ref before a player slinks off
Yeah that's true. In soccer they have stay until the player.has left the Field.
Quote from: seafoid on January 24, 2023, 05:32:26 PM
If for whatever reason CLG Watty Grahams pass on the option of making an appeal, the GAA should take over and implement their own rulebook by ordering a replay.
If Galway bate Meeyowestros next weekend by two points but TV that night confirms that the scorer of the winning goal took 9 steps before kicking the ball.....?
QuoteIf Galway bate Meeyowestros next weekend by two points but TV that night confirms that the scorer of the winning goal took 9 steps before kicking the ball.....?
Not a good comparison. That is a technical foul. The rule book says if you field an incorrect number of players then there are consequences, which can include losing the game or a replay. I assume there is a rule for playing a suspended player which could also mean losing the game or a replay. There are certain rules that if they are broken means you can loose a game that you have won on the field. The GAA should not be asking Glen to object to a rule that the GAA have in place. It is up to the GAA to enforce their own rule.
Quote from: Rossfan on January 24, 2023, 05:37:56 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 24, 2023, 05:32:26 PM
If for whatever reason CLG Watty Grahams pass on the option of making an appeal, the GAA should take over and implement their own rulebook by ordering a replay.
If Galway bate Meeyowestros next weekend by two points but TV that night confirms that the scorer of the winning goal took 9 steps before kicking the ball.....?
The sideline phrase is Ref! STEPS! because steps are adjudicated by the ref. More than 15 players is a GAA rulebook issue.
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on January 24, 2023, 05:11:18 PM
Glenn are being thrown under the bus here in my opinion. There's no doubt that having an extra defender in a crowded area where a crucial 45 is being defended is an advantage. Match should be replayed. If there's a fine it should be placed on the incompetent officials.
Exactly.
This is embarrassing for the GAA. But they probably don't even see it.
It's a cop out of epic proportions. We will enforce the rules if you make us but it is on you.
Honestly think glen have to protest now because of that.
Should be a slap on the wrist and move on. I don't think it had any impact on the score but Jesus what is the point in rules if you just ignore them.
Replay is the only sensible option ... if it was a 10 point drubbing then this is a non-story ... but it's a 2 point defeat with one team defending their goal with an illegal 16th man on the goal line. No brainer, has to be a replay.
I do believe Glen should appeal, force a decision from Croke Park, and then consider if they wish to enforce that decision.
Quote from: balladmaker on January 24, 2023, 06:52:36 PM
Replay is the only sensible option ... if it was a 10 point drubbing then this is a non-story ... but it's a 2 point defeat with one team defending their goal with an illegal 16th man on the goal line. No brainer, has to be a reply.
Replay the last minute of the game is the only fair and just option. 15 v 15 for 60 seconds with Crokes 2 points up. Either that or a big fine for Crokes.
Quote from: lenny on January 24, 2023, 07:00:47 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on January 24, 2023, 06:52:36 PM
Replay is the only sensible option ... if it was a 10 point drubbing then this is a non-story ... but it's a 2 point defeat with one team defending their goal with an illegal 16th man on the goal line. No brainer, has to be a reply.
Replay the last minute of the game is the only fair and just option. 15 v 15 for 60 seconds with Crokes 2 points up. Either that or a big fine for Crokes.
I agree, replay the last minute.
Had a thought this evening.
Would Crokes have ran the risk of trying to leave 16 on to burn another minute in confusion when the officials sorted it out?
And it backfired. Badly.
Glen will get their forward line in order and win the replay.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/24/16th-man-kilmacud-glen-crokes-all-ireland-club-final-controversy/
Glen, having been made aware "that potentially a rule was broken", asked Croke Park to clarify the matter. The response was that the situation would be adjudicated should the club wish to object to the result.
By Monday night the "potentially" had been dropped and the club statement restated that they had sought "clarification from the GAA on the breach of rules" and registered disappointment that this request form a review had been declined in the absence of "an official objection".
According to the Official Guide, Rule 6.44 there were two options – either to impose a penalty on Kilmacud "on a proven objection" or "on an inquiry by the committee in charge".
It could be asked what an inquiry might achieve given that clear breach of match regulations was evident from the television coverage. In other words, the facts are agreed.
Anyway, for whatever reason the CCCC took the view that an inquiry would not be appropriate for an incident of this nature and that such cases usually rely on an objection but it would have been within the committee's competence to do it themselves.
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on January 24, 2023, 07:06:30 PM
Had a thought this evening.
Would Crokes have ran the risk of trying to leave 16 on to burn another minute in confusion when the officials sorted it out?
And it backfired. Badly.
I was thinking about this.
It could have been a deliberate ploy on their behalf. We'll never know but after conceding the late late goal last year I'm sure they were thinking about it.
They seemed to panick by making a good few subs in the last few minutes, whether to kill the clock or use the confusion of that to keep a lad on the field.
I mean it doesn't happen too often in the GAA that a lad doesn't come off when he's subbed.
I don't buy that and makes me think it was a ploy.
But we'll never know either way.
So the KC manager said before the game or at half time, "right lads, if its tight at the end I'm throwing on 2 extra players but you stay on, just in case"
Seriously?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 07:46:26 PM
So the KC manager said before the game or at half time, "right lads, if its tight at the end I'm throwing on 2 extra players but you stay on, just in case"
Seriously?
Either that or Mullin decided on the ultimate sacrifice to stop a last minute goal.
Senior GAA walla Sean Kelly chips in with some good stuff
https://www.rte.ie/sport/football/2023/0124/1351623-gaa-inaction-could-spell-dangerous-legacy-kelly/
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 07:46:26 PM
So the KC manager said before the game or at half time, "right lads, if its tight at the end I'm throwing on 2 extra players but you stay on, just in case"
Seriously?
Do you think the management haven't game planned the last 5 minutes hundreds of times since last year?
Seriously?
To be clear, I don't think he was meant to stay on - the last man subbed in injury time was possibly meant to linger long enough to have the linesman get confused counting and burn time when they all sorted it. But the referee played on and then fog of war kicks in - maybe Mullin then thought they weren't the subbed man and guessed the refereeing team had sorted it.
Quote from: J70 on January 24, 2023, 06:24:23 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on January 24, 2023, 05:11:18 PM
Glenn are being thrown under the bus here in my opinion. There's no doubt that having an extra defender in a crowded area where a crucial 45 is being defended is an advantage. Match should be replayed. If there's a fine it should be placed on the incompetent officials.
Exactly.
This is embarrassing for the GAA. But they probably don't even see it.
oh yes they do
https://www.rte.ie/sport/football/2023/0124/1351623-gaa-inaction-could-spell-dangerous-legacy-kelly/
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on January 24, 2023, 08:24:00 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 07:46:26 PM
So the KC manager said before the game or at half time, "right lads, if its tight at the end I'm throwing on 2 extra players but you stay on, just in case"
Seriously?
Do you think the management haven't game planned the last 5 minutes hundreds of times since last year?
Seriously?
To be clear, I don't think he was meant to stay on - the last man subbed in injury time was possibly meant to linger long enough to have the linesman get confused counting and burn time when they all sorted it. But the referee played on and then fog of war kicks in - maybe Mullin then thought they weren't the subbed man and guessed the refereeing team had sorted it.
That's some stretch in fairness, that they discussed you stay on after we sub you!
Ah well it's taking management to a different level
if the game is replayed and glen win i can see a whole handling happening.
Quote from: Eire90 on January 24, 2023, 08:46:05 PM
if the game is replayed and glen win i can see a whole handling happening.
Would love to see it.
Why make 2 subs 2 mins into Injury time, with only 3mins of injury time, of course it was to waste time.
Objection in...
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 24, 2023, 09:48:29 PM
Why make 2 subs 2 mins into Injury time, with only 3mins of injury time, of course it was to waste time.
And MOR would have definitely done the same, I've seen it loads of times in games
Play should stop at the first break in play after "official" time is up.
This will be the final window for substitutions.
The amount of additional time will be announced before play resumes. Referee can extend additional time in case of time-wasting. No further subs allowed...not even in case of injury.
Tough, but fair.
And while I'm at it...I presume HQ can never review TV coverage again without an objection being in place from an aggrieved party (the loser of the game usually) which is an odd precedent to set for themselves, since they refuse to act on this case without an objection.
Very odd from HQ.
Really GAA should act on any wrong doing and not pass the buck to Glen.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 09:55:09 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 24, 2023, 09:48:29 PM
Why make 2 subs 2 mins into Injury time, with only 3mins of injury time, of course it was to waste time.
And MOR would have definitely done the same, I've seen it loads of times in games
So has anyone who's watched more than a handful of games lol. Standard enough
It must be very emotionally and mentally draining for the players on both teams.
Quote from: lenny on January 24, 2023, 10:03:08 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 24, 2023, 09:53:14 PM
Objection in...
Disappointed in Glen, sore losers.
They were entitled to appeal, its hardly sore losers. Kilmacud would have done the same. The GAA probaly wouldn't be passing the buck if it had happened to kilmacud.
Quote from: lenny on January 24, 2023, 10:03:08 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 24, 2023, 09:53:14 PM
Objection in...
Disappointed in Glen, sore losers.
No chance! Well saying your a Magherafelt man lenny lol. I don't think they are bad losers in any shape or form.
Quote from: lenny on January 24, 2023, 10:03:08 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 24, 2023, 09:53:14 PM
Objection in...
Disappointed in Glen, sore losers.
Sore losers? Kilmacud broke one of the fundamental rules. Deserve to punished.
Quote from: HiMucker on January 24, 2023, 10:06:02 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 09:55:09 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 24, 2023, 09:48:29 PM
Why make 2 subs 2 mins into Injury time, with only 3mins of injury time, of course it was to waste time.
And MOR would have definitely done the same, I've seen it loads of times in games
So has anyone who's watched more than a handful of games lol. Standard enough
So it's either ok and within the rules so why would anyone be annoyed about it?
Change the rules to reduce use of subs in injury time or just add on full minutes for each sub, regardless of how many.. but only against the team in front lol! Can you imagine being behind by 2 points and have 5 subs to put on, that's 5 extra minutes on top of the normal injury ;D
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 10:17:39 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on January 24, 2023, 10:06:02 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 09:55:09 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 24, 2023, 09:48:29 PM
Why make 2 subs 2 mins into Injury time, with only 3mins of injury time, of course it was to waste time.
And MOR would have definitely done the same, I've seen it loads of times in games
So has anyone who's watched more than a handful of games lol. Standard enough
So it's either ok and within the rules so why would anyone be annoyed about it?
Change the rules to reduce use of subs in injury time or just add on full minutes for each sub, regardless of how many.. but only against the team in front lol! Can you imagine being behind by 2 points and have 5 subs to put on, that's 5 extra minutes on top of the normal injury ;D
Well it is within the rules, and I wouldn't be annoyed about it unless it's happening against my team lol. But you can be annoyed about something and it be within the rules. It's clearly something that practically all teams exploit to get an advantage. Is it for the benefit of our games? I would say most people would agree its not, and the organisation clearly has an obligation to tweak or change any rules in order to improve our games. I think a stop clock would be the best solution. Then subs for time wasting is irrelevant.
Quote from: HiMucker on January 24, 2023, 10:12:09 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 24, 2023, 10:03:08 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 24, 2023, 09:53:14 PM
Objection in...
Disappointed in Glen, sore losers.
No chance! Well saying your a Magherafelt man lenny lol. I don't think they are bad losers in any shape or form.
The fairest thing now is for the GAA to impose a fine on Crokes for having 16 players on the pitch for 10 seconds of the 64 minutes.
It can be exploited also, so it's got to be no subs in injury time
Quote from: lenny on January 24, 2023, 10:34:03 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on January 24, 2023, 10:12:09 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 24, 2023, 10:03:08 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 24, 2023, 09:53:14 PM
Objection in...
Disappointed in Glen, sore losers.
No chance! Well saying your a Magherafelt man lenny lol. I don't think they are bad losers in any shape or form.
The fairest thing now is for the GAA to impose a fine on Crokes for having 16 players on the pitch for 10 seconds of the 64 minutes.
17 players
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 10:34:21 PM
It can be exploited also, so it's got to be no subs in injury time
Expain that one for me? Do you mean exploited as in using the subs to break up momentum or what? As surely a stop clock, you would just have it stopped when a sub is being made in injury time, and when it's up its up? I like the idea of the last play the ball has to go dead or the team winning is fouled in possession.
Quote from: lenny on January 24, 2023, 10:34:03 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on January 24, 2023, 10:12:09 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 24, 2023, 10:03:08 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 24, 2023, 09:53:14 PM
Objection in...
Disappointed in Glen, sore losers.
No chance! Well saying your a Magherafelt man lenny lol. I don't think they are bad losers in any shape or form.
The fairest thing now is for the GAA to impose a fine on Crokes for having 16 players on the pitch for 10 seconds of the 64 minutes.
The time is irrelevant as a goal could have been scored in a split second. Time. Would be relevant if it was more than a one score game at that stage.
Quote from: HiMucker on January 24, 2023, 10:38:41 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 10:34:21 PM
It can be exploited also, so it's got to be no subs in injury time
Exain that one for me? Do you mean exploited as in using the subs to break up momentum or what? As surely a stop clock. You would just have it stopped when a sub is being made in injury time, and when it's up its up? I like the idea of the last play the ball has to go dead or the team winning is fouled in possession.
When rules are changed people find ways to exploit it.
Boyle sports have Glen 15/8
Alot longer than 10secs, plus he's on the line, in a position where another player would had to Mann, freeing space. I still don't believe he didn't know he was to go off,
I'd still say the replay will not happen. A point will be made tho.
In Fairness if it was a Tyrone team in place of Dubs, we would already have decided that they did it on purpose and a replay would already be ordered a or the game would be awarded to the opposition ;)
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 10:48:58 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on January 24, 2023, 10:38:41 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 10:34:21 PM
It can be exploited also, so it's got to be no subs in injury time
Exain that one for me? Do you mean exploited as in using the subs to break up momentum or what? As surely a stop clock. You would just have it stopped when a sub is being made in injury time, and when it's up its up? I like the idea of the last play the ball has to go dead or the team winning is fouled in possession.
When rules are changed people find ways to exploit it.
Boyle sports have Glen 15/8
There is always unintended consequences of rule changes and that's why it's best to trial them. Thankfully the stop clock has been well trialled in the ladies game, and it seems to be agreed that it has had a positive impact. I'd be interested to know of any ways that it has been exploited that you suggested above?
Glen a great price. As someone mentioned before, if Glen even have one or two players dubious of the integrity of being granted a replay they will be soundly beat. The psychology of it will be fascinating. High drama and stress for both sets of players.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 09:55:09 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 24, 2023, 09:48:29 PM
Why make 2 subs 2 mins into Injury time, with only 3mins of injury time, of course it was to waste time.
And MOR would have definitely done the same, I've seen it loads of times in games
Yeah absolutely and totally entitled to do it, slow the game and kill any momentum, up to the ref to add time on though!
Quote from: fearbrags on January 24, 2023, 11:05:35 PM
In Fairness if it was a Tyrone team in place of Dubs, we would already have decided that they did it on purpose and a replay would already be ordered a or the game would be awarded to the opposition ;)
But they definitely would have done it on purpose!
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 24, 2023, 11:11:26 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 09:55:09 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 24, 2023, 09:48:29 PM
Why make 2 subs 2 mins into Injury time, with only 3mins of injury time, of course it was to waste time.
And MOR would have definitely done the same, I've seen it loads of times in games
Yeah absolutely and totally entitled to do it, slow the game and kill any momentum, up to the ref to add time on though!
The game didn't finish on 63.00 minutes, so he added time
They replay should be held in Derry
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 11:13:00 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 24, 2023, 11:11:26 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 09:55:09 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 24, 2023, 09:48:29 PM
Why make 2 subs 2 mins into Injury time, with only 3mins of injury time, of course it was to waste time.
And MOR would have definitely done the same, I've seen it loads of times in games
Yeah absolutely and totally entitled to do it, slow the game and kill any momentum, up to the ref to add time on though!
The game didn't finish on 63.00 minutes, so he added time
Talking in general, totally right to play over the original added time if theres been subs made (or in this case lads just fired on lol)
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 24, 2023, 11:12:12 PM
Quote from: fearbrags on January 24, 2023, 11:05:35 PM
In Fairness if it was a Tyrone team in place of Dubs, we would already have decided that they did it on purpose and a replay would already be ordered a or the game would be awarded to the opposition ;)
But they definitely would have done it on purpose!
It would have made the decision easier I guess, ;) but the Dubs are no angels , One all Ireland finished the Dubs one point ahead Mayo , Mayo Goalkeeper trying to kick the ball out and four sets of players grappling on the ground , No remarks past ""they were all at it "" 8)
Absolutely the right thing to do by Glen. The GAA are spineless.
Up the Watty Grahams!
If your opponent has 17 players on the pitch you're well entitled to ask for a replay imo. Crokes can't complain.
Ball in GAA's court now. Meeting tomorrow night?
Quote from: fearbrags on January 24, 2023, 11:21:52 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 24, 2023, 11:12:12 PM
Quote from: fearbrags on January 24, 2023, 11:05:35 PM
In Fairness if it was a Tyrone team in place of Dubs, we would already have decided that they did it on purpose and a replay would already be ordered a or the game would be awarded to the opposition ;)
But they definitely would have done it on purpose!
It would have made the decision easier I guess, ;) but the Dubs are no angels , One all Ireland finished the Dubs one point ahead Mayo , Mayo Goalkeeper trying to kick the ball out and four sets of players grappling on the ground , No remarks past ""they were all at it "" 8)
I believe the keepers tee was also thrown into the Hill and the spare ball behind the goal was booted away for good measure
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-20470478.html
Comment at the time was that the ref could have issued 4 Black Cards to the Dubs, but of course he bottled it
(That might have been another game though)
Fun and games now... will the GAA grant a replay? Will KC play it? If so where and when? Will Glen actually play it or are they making a point of principle??
In the All hurling club Semi final of 82/83 a game I actually attended
Following St. Rynagh's' defeat of Kiltormer in the All-Ireland semi-final, it was revealed that a St. Rynagh's player, Declan Fogarty, remained on the field for seven minutes after being sent off. The match was then awarded to Kiltormer, however, St. Rynagh's countered that Kiltormer had fielded an unregistered player. Kiltormer subsequently withdrew their complaint.
Quote from: fearbrags on January 24, 2023, 11:05:35 PM
In Fairness if it was a Tyrone team in place of Dubs, we would already have decided that they did it on purpose and a replay would already be ordered a or the game would be awarded to the opposition ;)
I can't believe it's taken over a hundred replies for Tyrone to be hard done by out of this!!
Quote from: Never beat the deeler on January 25, 2023, 12:49:21 AM
Quote from: fearbrags on January 24, 2023, 11:05:35 PM
In Fairness if it was a Tyrone team in place of Dubs, we would already have decided that they did it on purpose and a replay would already be ordered a or the game would be awarded to the opposition ;)
I can't believe it's taken over a hundred replies for Tyrone to be hard done by out of this!!
;D
Good for Glen.
Disgrace that they had to take the initiative to force action however.
I remember a crucial match back in 2018 where we had just gone two points ahead due to a penalty and were into stoppage time. Two players, one from each side, got into an altercation and were both shown second yellows but our player was not shown a red by the referee.
We made bloody sure he came off immediately, red card or no. We weren't going to give our opponents cause for an appeal.
If only I could remember who those opponents were...
Quote from: screenexile on January 25, 2023, 12:11:53 AM
Fun and games now... will the GAA grant a replay? Will KC play it? If so where and when? Will Glen actually play it or are they making a point of principle??
KC have 3 days to counter.
Quote from: J70 on January 25, 2023, 01:54:23 AM
Good for Glen.
Disgrace that they had to take the initiative to force action however.
Rules is rules. Club has to object. Could be a good time to revisit that rule and get something on the agenda for the next Congress to allow the CCC to order a replay without having to wait for the club to put something in.
Quote from: screenexile on January 25, 2023, 12:11:53 AM
Fun and games now... will the GAA grant a replay? Will KC play it? If so where and when? Will Glen actually play it or are they making a point of principle??
Given the nature/severity of the transgression the fairest outcome is a fine for crokes and I'd say many in the Glen camp would be content with that. I also am quite sure that crokes or any other club beaten in those circumstances would have accepted the result in the manner that malachy o'rourke said glen would. I'm saying all this as someone who was fully backing Glen throughout their Ulster and All Ireland campaigns. I don't think Glen would win a replay but even if they did they'd never get any kind of credit for it.
Quote from: lenny on January 25, 2023, 06:42:04 AM
Quote from: screenexile on January 25, 2023, 12:11:53 AM
Fun and games now... will the GAA grant a replay? Will KC play it? If so where and when? Will Glen actually play it or are they making a point of principle??
Given the nature/severity of the transgression the fairest outcome is a fine for crokes and I'd say many in the Glen camp would be content with that. I also am quite sure that crokes or any other club beaten in those circumstances would have accepted the result in the manner that malachy o'rourke said glen would. I'm saying all this as someone who was fully backing Glen throughout their Ulster and All Ireland campaigns. I don't think Glen would win a replay but even if they did they'd never get any kind of credit for it.
lol
KC will probably use the inflation defence.
17 players in 2022 are only worth 15 now, even in Lidl.
The reason why Robbie Brennan had a picture of Kilcoo's last minute goal on his screensaver was because that goal last year not only lost them the match.
It also scared the bejaysus out of KC.
Mullin's position on the goal line inside the goal must have been deliberate. They were paranoid about another goal right at the death. And there were only 2 points in it.
They could match up with all the players outfield and still have an extra man on the line.
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 07:16:11 AM
The reason why Robbie Brennan had a picture of Kilcoo's last minute goal on his screensaver was because that goal last year not only lost them the match.
It also scared the bejaysus out of KC.
Mullin's position on the goal line inside the goal must have been deliberate. They were paranoid about another goal right at the death. And there were only 2 points in it.
They could match up with all the players outfield and still have an extra man on the line.
You are mad in the head with those theories.
Within the rules KC have the right to appeal any decision, should be interesting to read that account
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 10:34:21 PM
It can be exploited also, so it's got to be no subs in injury time
or just add on 30s per sub regardless of when they come on
Quote from: fearbrags on January 24, 2023, 11:05:35 PM
In Fairness if it was a Tyrone team in place of Dubs, we would already have decided that they did it on purpose and a replay would already be ordered a or the game would be awarded to the opposition ;)
and we would be correct haha
Quote from: fearbrags on January 24, 2023, 11:21:52 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 24, 2023, 11:12:12 PM
Quote from: fearbrags on January 24, 2023, 11:05:35 PM
In Fairness if it was a Tyrone team in place of Dubs, we would already have decided that they did it on purpose and a replay would already be ordered a or the game would be awarded to the opposition ;)
But they definitely would have done it on purpose!
It would have made the decision easier I guess, ;) but the Dubs are no angels , One all Ireland finished the Dubs one point ahead Mayo , Mayo Goalkeeper trying to kick the ball out and four sets of players grappling on the ground , No remarks past ""they were all at it "" 8)
were the Dubs grappling with themselves?
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 25, 2023, 05:36:23 AM
Quote from: J70 on January 25, 2023, 01:54:23 AM
Good for Glen.
Disgrace that they had to take the initiative to force action however.
Rules is rules. Club has to object. Could be a good time to revisit that rule and get something on the agenda for the next Congress to allow the CCC to order a replay without having to wait for the club to put something in.
That wouldn't be fair. I can't wait to see KC's objection.
How do you get a cork back into a bottle of Moet?
KC need to come up with something to counter Wattys and avoid a replay. What can they come up with ?
Wattys failed to bring on an extra sub so it's their fault
Everybody is just jealous of us
It's the ref's fault. The ref should be forfeited
What about them ?
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 08:22:47 AM
KC need to come up with something to counter Wattys and avoid a replay. What can they come up with ?
Wattys failed to bring on an extra sub so it's their fault
Everybody is just jealous of us
It's the ref's fault. The ref should be forfeited
What about them ?
So what did KC do wrong here?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 08:43:33 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 08:22:47 AM
KC need to come up with something to counter Wattys and avoid a replay. What can they come up with ?
Wattys failed to bring on an extra sub so it's their fault
Everybody is just jealous of us
It's the ref's fault. The ref should be forfeited
What about them ?
So what did KC do wrong here?
They had 17 men on the pitch during play.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 07:35:04 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 07:16:11 AM
The reason why Robbie Brennan had a picture of Kilcoo's last minute goal on his screensaver was because that goal last year not only lost them the match.
It also scared the bejaysus out of KC.
Mullin's position on the goal line inside the goal must have been deliberate. They were paranoid about another goal right at the death. And there were only 2 points in it.
They could match up with all the players outfield and still have an extra man on the line.
You are mad in the head with those theories.
Within the rules KC have the right to appeal any decision, should be interesting to read that account
Psychology is rampant in the GAA, as in any sport.
KC had that flakiness until they won but maybe it'll be back for the replay.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 08:43:33 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 08:22:47 AM
KC need to come up with something to counter Wattys and avoid a replay. What can they come up with ?
Wattys failed to bring on an extra sub so it's their fault
Everybody is just jealous of us
It's the ref's fault. The ref should be forfeited
What about them ?
So what did KC do wrong here?
Rule 6.44 Tsk tsk
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/24/16th-man-kilmacud-glen-crokes-all-ireland-club-final-controversy/
Sportsmanship cuts both ways and it was equally open to Kilmacud to offer a replay on the basis they had broken the rules and they too must be dismayed at how their "victory" has been submerged in controversy.
Quote from: RedHand88 on January 25, 2023, 08:44:52 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 08:43:33 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 08:22:47 AM
KC need to come up with something to counter Wattys and avoid a replay. What can they come up with ?
Wattys failed to bring on an extra sub so it's their fault
Everybody is just jealous of us
It's the ref's fault. The ref should be forfeited
What about them ?
So what did KC do wrong here?
They had 17 men on the pitch during play.
They made the subs, they gave the 4th official the slips and did what they had to do
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 08:47:20 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on January 25, 2023, 08:44:52 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 08:43:33 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 08:22:47 AM
KC need to come up with something to counter Wattys and avoid a replay. What can they come up with ?
Wattys failed to bring on an extra sub so it's their fault
Everybody is just jealous of us
It's the ref's fault. The ref should be forfeited
What about them ?
So what did KC do wrong here?
They had 17 men on the pitch during play.
They made the subs, they gave the 4th official the slips and did what they had to do
Apart from slightly important bit of taking the other lad off. Do you have a horse in this race or why are you blindly defending it?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 08:47:20 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on January 25, 2023, 08:44:52 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 08:43:33 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 08:22:47 AM
KC need to come up with something to counter Wattys and avoid a replay. What can they come up with ?
Wattys failed to bring on an extra sub so it's their fault
Everybody is just jealous of us
It's the ref's fault. The ref should be forfeited
What about them ?
So what did KC do wrong here?
They had 17 men on the pitch during play.
They made the subs, they gave the 4th official the slips and did what they had to do
substitution (noun)
"the action of replacing someone or something with another person or thing."
KC didn't do what they had to do. They didn't make a substitution, they sent an extra player on to the pitch.
Quote from: whitey on January 25, 2023, 12:08:32 AM
Quote from: fearbrags on January 24, 2023, 11:21:52 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 24, 2023, 11:12:12 PM
Quote from: fearbrags on January 24, 2023, 11:05:35 PM
In Fairness if it was a Tyrone team in place of Dubs, we would already have decided that they did it on purpose and a replay would already be ordered a or the game would be awarded to the opposition ;)
But they definitely would have done it on purpose!
It would have made the decision easier I guess, ;) but the Dubs are no angels , One all Ireland finished the Dubs one point ahead Mayo , Mayo Goalkeeper trying to kick the ball out and four sets of players grappling on the ground , No remarks past ""they were all at it "" 8)
I believe the keepers tee was also thrown into the Hill and the spare ball behind the goal was booted away for good measure
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-20470478.html
Comment at the time was that the ref could have issued 4 Black Cards to the Dubs, but of course he bottled it
(That might have been another game though)
Mad that so many swallow the lies fed by the Mayo and the media!
There was enormous whinging and lies by Mayo and the media over this incident (2017 final). Maybe to deflect they'd bottled it, or to avoid Lee Keegan getting a ban for the most blatant piece of cheating even seen in an All Ireland final!
Rock had a last gasp free to win the match after the majestic Connolly was fouled for the umpteenth time. Ciaran Kilkenny was to pick up Keegan for the resulting kickout so had his eyes on Keegan when the threw the GPS at Rock (who didn't flinch and calmly slotted over the winning point) so Kilkenny went for Keegan and wrestled him to the ground. That was the only Dublin player who pulled an opposing player on the ground. Despite there being video proof of this (see 1.42.15 of this video), the outright lie that 4 or 5 Dublin players had wrestled opponents to the ground is still is taken as fact and often referred to in analysis (some even praise the Dubs for it as "doing all it takes to win a game" - morons, as the only impact it had was for the Dubs to fack thne kickout with a man less!).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYBFoI-fznE
Costello did throw the kicking tee. But the ref dealt with those two incidents appropriately, black for Kilkenny, yellow for Costello.
So it actually couldn't have worked out worse for the Dubs. Rock took his kick exactly on 76 minutes (there was 6 mins injury time), the initial kickout by Clarke was kicked to an area where there 3 Dubs v 2 Mayo, so Dubs were favs to win it. But the kickout had to be retaken, Dublin were thus a man down, and the ref added on another 3 minutes! (blew up at 78.55 when a Dub would have been clean through on goal). All Clarke had to do was find a Mayo man with his kickout and it's pretty certain that Mayo would have worked a scoring opportunity. But Clarke blazed it over the sideline!!
Anyway, sorry for the digression, but it's a game I love reminiscing about!
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 10:34:21 PM
It can be exploited also, so it's got to be no subs in injury time
I know refs arent the brightest but surely they can add time on for subs....
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 08:47:20 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on January 25, 2023, 08:44:52 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 08:43:33 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 08:22:47 AM
KC need to come up with something to counter Wattys and avoid a replay. What can they come up with ?
Wattys failed to bring on an extra sub so it's their fault
Everybody is just jealous of us
It's the ref's fault. The ref should be forfeited
What about them ?
So what did KC do wrong here?
They had 17 men on the pitch during play.
They made the subs, they gave the 4th official the slips and did what they had to do
The question is why Mullin stayed on. We don't know. Did he override the club's instructions? Was he a lone wolf on the goal line ?
Or was he working for the family, an innocent gobshite caught up in a much bigger web ?
It would make a great Scooby Doo episode.
Quote from: RedHand88 on January 25, 2023, 08:50:34 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 08:47:20 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on January 25, 2023, 08:44:52 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 08:43:33 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 08:22:47 AM
KC need to come up with something to counter Wattys and avoid a replay. What can they come up with ?
Wattys failed to bring on an extra sub so it's their fault
Everybody is just jealous of us
It's the ref's fault. The ref should be forfeited
What about them ?
So what did KC do wrong here?
They had 17 men on the pitch during play.
They made the subs, they gave the 4th official the slips and did what they had to do
Apart from slightly important bit of taking the other lad off. Do you have a horse in this race or why are you blindly defending it?
I've no horse in the and I'm totally behind Glen making the appeal on the grounds that there was 16 players involved in the area where the ball was played, Mannion is not even considered top be part of play, he looked like an over eager under 12 coach on the pitch..
KC will argue that they did nothing wrong and that the officials started the game incorrectly, if you give the slips to the 4th official and he then informs the ref what else can they do? How long was he on the pitch? In all that commotion as a manager you aint looking to see where the sub is tbf
Quote from: RedHand88 on January 25, 2023, 08:50:34 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 08:47:20 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on January 25, 2023, 08:44:52 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 08:43:33 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 08:22:47 AM
KC need to come up with something to counter Wattys and avoid a replay. What can they come up with ?
Wattys failed to bring on an extra sub so it's their fault
Everybody is just jealous of us
It's the ref's fault. The ref should be forfeited
What about them ?
So what did KC do wrong here?
They had 17 men on the pitch during play.
They made the subs, they gave the 4th official the slips and did what they had to do
Apart from slightly important bit of taking the other lad off. Do you have a horse in this race or why are you blindly defending it?
;D
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 25, 2023, 08:57:00 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2023, 10:34:21 PM
It can be exploited also, so it's got to be no subs in injury time
I know refs arent the brightest but surely they can add time on for subs....
Says the guy who's Andrew Tate's biggest fan!
In this game he did play over the the 63 minutes, but you being smart would know this..
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/25/the-stats-dont-lie-old-mantra-of-league-only-being-the-league-is-fading/
Sure, isn't Jack O'Connor only sending a hastily assembled bunch of inexperienced young lads and some taped-together auld fellas up to Donegal. The current league champions will be lucky to have 15 players in Ballybofey. And you need 16 or 17 players to finish a game nowadays.
Quote from: Hound on January 25, 2023, 08:54:27 AM
Quote from: whitey on January 25, 2023, 12:08:32 AM
Quote from: fearbrags on January 24, 2023, 11:21:52 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 24, 2023, 11:12:12 PM
Quote from: fearbrags on January 24, 2023, 11:05:35 PM
In Fairness if it was a Tyrone team in place of Dubs, we would already have decided that they did it on purpose and a replay would already be ordered a or the game would be awarded to the opposition ;)
But they definitely would have done it on purpose!
It would have made the decision easier I guess, ;) but the Dubs are no angels , One all Ireland finished the Dubs one point ahead Mayo , Mayo Goalkeeper trying to kick the ball out and four sets of players grappling on the ground , No remarks past ""they were all at it "" 8)
I believe the keepers tee was also thrown into the Hill and the spare ball behind the goal was booted away for good measure
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-20470478.html
Comment at the time was that the ref could have issued 4 Black Cards to the Dubs, but of course he bottled it
(That might have been another game though)
Mad that so many Nordies swallow the lies fed by the Mayo and the media!
There was enormous whinging and lies by Mayo and the media over this incident (2017 final). Maybe to deflect they'd bottled it, or to avoid Lee Keegan getting a ban for the most blatant piece of cheating even seen in an All Ireland final!
Rock had a last gasp free to win the match after the majestic Connolly was fouled for the umpteenth time. Ciaran Kilkenny was to pick up Keegan for the resulting kickout so had his eyes on Keegan when the threw the GPS at Rock (who didn't flinch and calmly slotted over the winning point) so Kilkenny went for Keegan and wrestled him to the ground. That was the only Dublin player who pulled an opposing player on the ground. Despite there being video proof of this (see 1.42.15 of this video), the outright lie that 4 or 5 Dublin players had wrestled opponents to the ground is still is taken as fact and often referred to in analysis (some even praise the Dubs for it as "doing all it takes to win a game" - morons, as the only impact it had was for the Dubs to fack thne kickout with a man less!).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYBFoI-fznE
Costello did throw the kicking tee. But the ref dealt with those two incidents appropriately, black for Kilkenny, yellow for Costello.
So it actually couldn't have worked out worse for the Dubs. Rock took his kick exactly on 76 minutes (there was 6 mins injury time), the initial kickout by Clarke was kicked to an area where there 3 Dubs v 2 Mayo, so Dubs were favs to win it. But the kickout had to be retaken, Dublin were thus a man down, and the ref added on another 3 minutes! (blew up at 78.55 when a Dub would have been clean through on goal). All Clarke had to do was find a Mayo man with his kickout and it's pretty certain that Mayo would have worked a scoring opportunity. But Clarke blazed it over the sideline!!
Anyway, sorry for the digression, but it's a game I love reminiscing about!
WTF? Leave us the feck outa it. Neither whitey or Fearbrags are from the north.
What KC do wrong? That's fairly simple, they brought on 2 took off 1, am back again to, well when I was a player, if you coming on to the field, you tell u teammate he going off, Players IQ hasn't dipped in recent years. So why the sub make no attempt to tell the lad he coming in for, he's off?
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 08:22:47 AM
KC need to come up with something to counter Wattys and avoid a replay. What can they come up with ?
Wattys failed to bring on an extra sub so it's their fault
Everybody is just jealous of us
It's the ref's fault. The ref should be forfeited
What about them ?
That's the thing, I've always thought it was the club themselves responsible for substitutions etc etc but we'll soon find out.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 25, 2023, 09:06:07 AM
What KC do wrong? That's fairly simple, they brought on 2 took off 1, am back again to, well when I was a player, if you coming on to the field, you tell u teammate he going off, Players IQ hasn't dipped in recent years. So why the sub make no attempt to tell the lad he coming in for, he's off?
You are looking at it from a 'gentlemans agreement, fairplay crap' The slips were given and its totally down to the officials that allowed play to continue while there was an extra man on the pitch.
The player coming on was given (I'm sure) instructions to line out or pick someone up, Its not a league game on a Wed night in the sticks with nothing really at stake, there is no high fives to the sub its some player trying to win an All Ireland
I'm just looking at how KC will approach this, and if this was your club you may think the same
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 25, 2023, 05:36:23 AM
Quote from: J70 on January 25, 2023, 01:54:23 AM
Good for Glen.
Disgrace that they had to take the initiative to force action however.
Rules is rules. Club has to object. Could be a good time to revisit that rule and get something on the agenda for the next Congress to allow the CCC to order a replay without having to wait for the club to put something in.
No they don't. The GAA can and should've investigated themselves first.
Quote from: johnnycool on January 25, 2023, 09:09:50 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 08:22:47 AM
KC need to come up with something to counter Wattys and avoid a replay. What can they come up with ?
Wattys failed to bring on an extra sub so it's their fault
Everybody is just jealous of us
It's the ref's fault. The ref should be forfeited
What about them ?
That's the thing, I've always thought it was the club themselves responsible for substitutions etc etc but we'll soon find out.
Personally and I hope it doesn't happen is the Ref will be made the scapegoat here and Croke may use that to not have a replay.
I feel he made a genuine mistake, he didn't count how many were on the pitch, I never would unless its brought to my attention, and with only seconds left on the clock blew his whistle to play on, the match should have restarted with the 45 after they realised but it didnt!
Colm Parkinson is a horrible, ferrety little ****. Nothing more than a controversialist. A slightly less batshit version of Ewan MacKenna, and he was only ever a marginally better footballer.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 09:11:27 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 25, 2023, 09:06:07 AM
What KC do wrong? That's fairly simple, they brought on 2 took off 1, am back again to, well when I was a player, if you coming on to the field, you tell u teammate he going off, Players IQ hasn't dipped in recent years. So why the sub make no attempt to tell the lad he coming in for, he's off?
You are looking at it from a 'gentlemans agreement, fairplay crap' The slips were given and its totally down to the officials that allowed play to continue while there was an extra man on the pitch.
The player coming on was given (I'm sure) instructions to line out or pick someone up, Its not a league game on a Wed night in the sticks with nothing really at stake, there is no high fives to the sub its some player trying to win an All Ireland
I'm just looking at how KC will approach this, and if this was your club you may think the same
Do you think that on the KC sideline, with all their Mgt and club Secretary, someone didn't say/notice that the player hasn't come off and either thought to themselves, I'll say nothing until the ref notices or he does says something and is promptly told to say nothing until the ref notices. I'd have little doubt this happened, even in the heat of the battle and in the blink of an eye and it might never be admitted or proven but someone will have that guilt in the Crokes camp if this goes to a replay. Very little gets missed along the line even in an instant and someone would have expect the sub to appear.
I'd even wager someone thought if this goes in as goal we will say we'd extra man on field and look the 45 retaken ;D
Quote from: gallsman on January 25, 2023, 09:17:00 AM
Colm Parkinson is a horrible, ferrety little ****. Nothing more than a controversialist. A slightly less batshit version of Ewan MacKenna, and he was only ever a marginally better footballer.
Parkinson against everything but stands for nothing. All about the clicks and attention.
He'll likely just start calling people idiots who don't agree with him.
I would think the mistake here is made by the referee and/or 4th official.
In a club league game with one official and a small crowd it is mainly the manager who will have to accept responsibility for the number of players on the pitch. The torn bit of paper with the name of sub and player he is subbing off goes on with the player and he gives it directly to the referee, who watches who goes off. Also in this situation the opposition players and management are usually quick to notice if there's an extra man and bring it to the referee's attention.
In a situation with a 20,000 crowd this is not possible. Dara Mullin probably had no idea that he was bring taken off unless he happened to look over and see his number, its not like anyone was able to shout on to him your coming off. This is why in big games there is a 4th official and linesman organising the changes so they can communicate the changes to the ref as its also impossible for the referee to see or hear all that going on.
In this case the 4th official should be aware that 2 players went on and only 1 came off and should have let the referee know this. So he either failed to do this or the referee played on regardless.
Were Dublin punished in 95?
Some people are losing the run of themselves on this thread, some of the wild theories being thrown about are clear nonsense. A mistake was made on the sideline by the officials not to notice the player hadn't come off simple as that. Anybody suggesting Crokes deliberately left the man on the field as some sort of last minute ploy that's been hatched since last years final needs their head examined.
If it was the other way round would there be the same social media pile on looking a replay?
Quote from: Louther on January 25, 2023, 09:32:35 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 09:11:27 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 25, 2023, 09:06:07 AM
What KC do wrong? That's fairly simple, they brought on 2 took off 1, am back again to, well when I was a player, if you coming on to the field, you tell u teammate he going off, Players IQ hasn't dipped in recent years. So why the sub make no attempt to tell the lad he coming in for, he's off?
You are looking at it from a 'gentlemans agreement, fairplay crap' The slips were given and its totally down to the officials that allowed play to continue while there was an extra man on the pitch.
The player coming on was given (I'm sure) instructions to line out or pick someone up, Its not a league game on a Wed night in the sticks with nothing really at stake, there is no high fives to the sub its some player trying to win an All Ireland
I'm just looking at how KC will approach this, and if this was your club you may think the same
Do you think that on the KC sideline, with all their Mgt and club Secretary, someone didn't say/notice that the player hasn't come off and either thought to themselves, I'll say nothing until the ref notices or he does says something and is promptly told to say nothing until the ref notices. I'd have little doubt this happened, even in the heat of the battle and in the blink of an eye and it might never be admitted or proven but someone will have that guilt in the Crokes camp if this goes to a replay. Very little gets missed along the line even in an instant and someone would have expect the sub to appear.
I'd even wager someone thought if this goes in as goal we will say we'd extra man on field and look the 45 retaken ;D
You're looking too deep into it. Mannion went off behind the goal and im sure KC had assumed mullin went off behind the goal too hence why no one would have noticed him if he was on the sideline or not
Quote from: SHEEDY on January 25, 2023, 10:06:37 AM
Some people are losing the run of themselves on this thread, some of the wild theories being thrown about are clear nonsense. A mistake was made on the sideline by the officials not to notice the player hadn't come off simple as that. Anybody suggesting Crokes deliberately left the man on the field as some sort of last minute ploy that's been hatched since last years final needs their head examined.
If it was the other way round would there be the same social media pile on looking a replay?
100% - some balloons actually thinking they did it deliberately....FS.
Quote from: SHEEDY on January 25, 2023, 10:06:37 AM
Some people are losing the run of themselves on this thread, some of the wild theories being thrown about are clear nonsense. A mistake was made on the sideline by the officials not to notice the player hadn't come off simple as that. Anybody suggesting Crokes deliberately left the man on the field as some sort of last minute ploy that's been hatched since last years final needs their head examined.
If it was the other way round would there be the same social media pile on looking a replay?
Yep. Agree with this. Why would they do any of that at the risk of being caught. Makes no sense.
Any news from KC? Will they play a replay ?
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 25, 2023, 10:10:29 AM
Quote from: SHEEDY on January 25, 2023, 10:06:37 AM
Some people are losing the run of themselves on this thread, some of the wild theories being thrown about are clear nonsense. A mistake was made on the sideline by the officials not to notice the player hadn't come off simple as that. Anybody suggesting Crokes deliberately left the man on the field as some sort of last minute ploy that's been hatched since last years final needs their head examined.
If it was the other way round would there be the same social media pile on looking a replay?
Yep. Agree with this. Why would they do any of that at the risk of being caught. Makes no sense.
Why would you go up the steps of the Hogan and parade around Stillorgan with the cup knowing the rules were broken ?
It's nuts.
I think Glen have played their card and now it is back to the GAA to deal with it and decide on what course of action to take. Which will probably be to order a replay. What happens next then? Will Kilmacud refuse to play it and potentially forfeit the AI title and will Glen actually accept the replay offer and forfeit the game. If not this could drag on for weeks through an appeals process. Its messy for everyone and no matter the course of action there will be some people jumping up and down in fury.
Quote from: SHEEDY on January 25, 2023, 10:06:37 AM
Some people are losing the run of themselves on this thread, some of the wild theories being thrown about are clear nonsense. A mistake was made on the sideline by the officials not to notice the player hadn't come off simple as that. Anybody suggesting Crokes deliberately left the man on the field as some sort of last minute ploy that's been hatched since last years final needs their head examined.
If it was the other way round would there be the same social media pile on looking a replay?
There is a clear anti Dublin bias on this board. This thread is allowing people to express that with the county team having had a poor year - by their standards
Boyle sports have the match on there docket for 3.30 Saturday, Glen 15/8 KC 4/7.
Quote from: SHEEDY on January 25, 2023, 10:06:37 AM
Some people are losing the run of themselves on this thread, some of the wild theories being thrown about are clear nonsense. A mistake was made on the sideline by the officials not to notice the player hadn't come off simple as that. Anybody suggesting Crokes deliberately left the man on the field as some sort of last minute ploy that's been hatched since last years final needs their head examined.
If it was the other way round would there be the same social media pile on looking a replay?
Agreed, can't imagine there's full agreement within the Glen camp on this either.
Quote from: nrico2006 on January 25, 2023, 10:00:50 AM
Were Dublin punished in 95?
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/tyrone-s-success-gives-feargal-logan-relief-from-the-pain-of-1995-1.4671866
For a second on Saturday night, Feargal Logan looked as if he was going to fish out his phone and start reading from it.
One of the questions we asked him was , given that he had had such a grim experience in the one All-Ireland final he played in – 1995, the Dubs, the last-gasp disallowed point, etc – whether or not this meant more to him than it did to his co-manager Brian Dooher.
Dooher was sitting beside him, by the way. And judging by the half-harrumph, half-smirk he gave when he heard the question, we were all lucky that Tyrone had actually won the thing. You take your life in your hands when you suggest that winning an All-Ireland means more to anybody than it does to Brian Dooher.
Logan is, above and beyond everything else, however, his own man. And rather than bat the question away, his bearing visibly sagged ever so slightly as he began to answer. That 1995 final could have been the greatest day of his life and only the tiniest margin – a referee seeing a ball picked up off the ground when it had in fact bounced up – ruined it on him.
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And now, 26 years later, even the glow of finally getting up the Hogan steps, even then he couldn't be blithe about what that defeat had meant. Not just for him but for the Tyrone team around him that day. Some of them, as Peter Canavan outlined in these pages on Saturday, got to slay the demons in the 2000s. But most of them didn't. Tiny margins, big consequences.
"In the immortal words of Páidí Ó Sé, a grain of rice tips the balance," Logan said. "That's what you live or die by in football. You can be very sore as a manager when you go home and that grain of rice tips against you. It was small margins today but probably the goals set us up. Goals win matches and we were lucky to get them. They worked and our midfield were outstanding.
Learn more
"It probably does [mean more to me], in truth. There's no getting away from the fact that 1995 was a very, very painful day for Tyrone. And in particular for the lads, the '95 lads who I ran with back in the day and still would run with. I took all their names in my phone here and I'd love to give them all a shout out.
"I'd love to see them printed tomorrow to say, 'Listen lads, that's one that got away.' We partly redeemed it here. We didn't redeem it as players but in my mind anyway this is somewhat of a redemption."
He did go rummaging in his pocket for a second but didn't actually take out his phone and start listing off names. So what the hell, let's do it for him anyway. Finbar McConnell. Paul Devlin. Fay Devlin. Ronan McGarrity. Séamus McCallan. Seán McLaughlin. Jody Gormley. Ciarán Corr. Pascal Canavan. Ciarán Loughran. Ciarán McBride. Stephen Lawn. Mattie McGleenan. Brian Gormley. Paul Donnelly. Chris Lawn and Peter Canavan were there too but they got their medals eventually.
Logan was talking about the others, members of that small circle of GAA players from down the decades who got their one shot at glory and didn't take it. Most players never get to a final. Half that do go home as made men for life. The other half carry with them heads filled with regrets. For some it dissipates. For others, it's that small shadow on the X-ray of their life. Always there, always black, never benign.
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 25, 2023, 10:20:52 AM
Quote from: SHEEDY on January 25, 2023, 10:06:37 AM
Some people are losing the run of themselves on this thread, some of the wild theories being thrown about are clear nonsense. A mistake was made on the sideline by the officials not to notice the player hadn't come off simple as that. Anybody suggesting Crokes deliberately left the man on the field as some sort of last minute ploy that's been hatched since last years final needs their head examined.
If it was the other way round would there be the same social media pile on looking a replay?
There is a clear anti Dublin bias on this board. This thread is allowing people to express that with the county team having had a poor year - by their standards
There is and the Shane Walsh transfer hasn't helped the matter either.
The huge majority of people I know in the real world think Glen shouldn't be objecting.
The Shane Walsh thing has hugely conflated people's opinions it seems. It has bog all to do with this at all so I dunno why people think it suddenly changes anything.
The GAA should have dealt with this and then never needed to have to deal with objection or not.
Quote from: yellowcard on January 25, 2023, 10:20:37 AM
I think Glen have played their card and now it is back to the GAA to deal with it and decide on what course of action to take. Which will probably be to order a replay. What happens next then? Will Kilmacud refuse to play it and potentially forfeit the AI title and will Glen actually accept the replay offer and forfeit the game. If not this could drag on for weeks through an appeals process. Its messy for everyone and no matter the course of action there will be some people jumping up and down in fury.
I think it was on OTB that the GAA position was that the offended team has to object in order to limit the number of cases that reach the GAA.
But surely for an all Ireland final of national importance they could have a separate process.
The uncertainty must be difficult for the 2 clubs.
Conor Glass came back from Australia for days like Sunday. He couldn't have imagined this week.
Quote from: Maroon Manc on January 25, 2023, 10:39:38 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 25, 2023, 10:20:52 AM
Quote from: SHEEDY on January 25, 2023, 10:06:37 AM
Some people are losing the run of themselves on this thread, some of the wild theories being thrown about are clear nonsense. A mistake was made on the sideline by the officials not to notice the player hadn't come off simple as that. Anybody suggesting Crokes deliberately left the man on the field as some sort of last minute ploy that's been hatched since last years final needs their head examined.
If it was the other way round would there be the same social media pile on looking a replay?
There is a clear anti Dublin bias on this board. This thread is allowing people to express that with the county team having had a poor year - by their standards
There is and the Shane Walsh transfer hasn't helped the matter either.
The huge majority of people I know in the real world think Glen shouldn't be objecting.
Really? Anyone i've spoke to has. Whether they'd feel the same if it was the other way round who knows.
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 10:44:37 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 25, 2023, 10:20:37 AM
I think Glen have played their card and now it is back to the GAA to deal with it and decide on what course of action to take. Which will probably be to order a replay. What happens next then? Will Kilmacud refuse to play it and potentially forfeit the AI title and will Glen actually accept the replay offer and forfeit the game. If not this could drag on for weeks through an appeals process. Its messy for everyone and no matter the course of action there will be some people jumping up and down in fury.
I think it was on OTB that the GAA position was that the offended team has to object in order to limit the number of cases that reach the GAA.
But surely for an all Ireland final of national importance they could have a separate process.
The uncertainty must be difficult for the 2 clubs.
Conor Glass came back from Australia for days like Sunday. He couldn't have imagined this week.
He'd have enjoyed it more had he put that weak effort in the back of the net
Quote from: Maroon Manc on January 25, 2023, 10:39:38 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 25, 2023, 10:20:52 AM
Quote from: SHEEDY on January 25, 2023, 10:06:37 AM
Some people are losing the run of themselves on this thread, some of the wild theories being thrown about are clear nonsense. A mistake was made on the sideline by the officials not to notice the player hadn't come off simple as that. Anybody suggesting Crokes deliberately left the man on the field as some sort of last minute ploy that's been hatched since last years final needs their head examined.
If it was the other way round would there be the same social media pile on looking a replay?
There is a clear anti Dublin bias on this board. This thread is allowing people to express that with the county team having had a poor year - by their standards
There is and the Shane Walsh transfer hasn't helped the matter either.
The huge majority of people I know in the real world think Glen shouldn't be objecting.
Paranoid much. Catch a grip a clear rule was broken and needs fixed, why should Glen be forced to suck it up. Shows how Dublin aren't used to get called out when one thing goes against them and its suddenly anti Dublin basis.
Quote from: Maroon Manc on January 25, 2023, 10:39:38 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 25, 2023, 10:20:52 AM
Quote from: SHEEDY on January 25, 2023, 10:06:37 AM
Some people are losing the run of themselves on this thread, some of the wild theories being thrown about are clear nonsense. A mistake was made on the sideline by the officials not to notice the player hadn't come off simple as that. Anybody suggesting Crokes deliberately left the man on the field as some sort of last minute ploy that's been hatched since last years final needs their head examined.
If it was the other way round would there be the same social media pile on looking a replay?
There is a clear anti Dublin bias on this board. This thread is allowing people to express that with the county team having had a poor year - by their standards
There is and the Shane Walsh transfer hasn't helped the matter either.
The huge majority of people I know in the real world think Glen shouldn't be objecting.
The poll at the top of the page would roughly reflect the thoughts of people i've talked to. I have spoken to a few who think that Glen should have objected but not actually go ahead with a replay if granted, still a possibility I suppose.
Quote from: tyrone08 on January 25, 2023, 10:47:36 AM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on January 25, 2023, 10:39:38 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 25, 2023, 10:20:52 AM
Quote from: SHEEDY on January 25, 2023, 10:06:37 AM
Some people are losing the run of themselves on this thread, some of the wild theories being thrown about are clear nonsense. A mistake was made on the sideline by the officials not to notice the player hadn't come off simple as that. Anybody suggesting Crokes deliberately left the man on the field as some sort of last minute ploy that's been hatched since last years final needs their head examined.
If it was the other way round would there be the same social media pile on looking a replay?
There is a clear anti Dublin bias on this board. This thread is allowing people to express that with the county team having had a poor year - by their standards
There is and the Shane Walsh transfer hasn't helped the matter either.
The huge majority of people I know in the real world think Glen shouldn't be objecting.
Paranoid much. Catch a grip a clear rule was broken and needs fixed, why should Glen be forced to suck it up. Shows how Dublin aren't used to get called out when one thing goes against them and its suddenly anti Dublin basis.
Nobody is saying Glen should be forced to suck it up though are they?
Quote from: SHEEDY on January 25, 2023, 10:06:37 AM
Some people are losing the run of themselves on this thread, some of the wild theories being thrown about are clear nonsense. A mistake was made on the sideline by the officials not to notice the player hadn't come off simple as that. Anybody suggesting Crokes deliberately left the man on the field as some sort of last minute ploy that's been hatched since last years final needs their head examined.
If it was the other way round would there be the same social media pile on looking a replay?
The only way we would know what happened would be in a court of law but the idea that there is no cheating in the GAA does not hold water.
Especially when the stakes are so high.
And a replay is in the rules. Social media are neither here nor there .
Quote from: Maroon Manc on January 25, 2023, 10:39:38 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 25, 2023, 10:20:52 AM
Quote from: SHEEDY on January 25, 2023, 10:06:37 AM
Some people are losing the run of themselves on this thread, some of the wild theories being thrown about are clear nonsense. A mistake was made on the sideline by the officials not to notice the player hadn't come off simple as that. Anybody suggesting Crokes deliberately left the man on the field as some sort of last minute ploy that's been hatched since last years final needs their head examined.
If it was the other way round would there be the same social media pile on looking a replay?
There is a clear anti Dublin bias on this board. This thread is allowing people to express that with the county team having had a poor year - by their standards
There is and the Shane Walsh transfer hasn't helped the matter either.
The huge majority of people I know in the real world think Glen shouldn't be objecting.
I agree that Twitter gives a voice to the perenially outraged and is often not reflective of the wider society views. But I wouldn't underestimate the influence of Twitter in shaping some peoples views. There is definitely a certain element of peoples already inbuilt prejudices over Dublin football and the Walsh transfer at play here in the minds of public opinion. Not all but I would hazard a guess that it is a large part of it. Plenty of people would revel were Kilmacud to lose a replay and have to watch Glen lifting the cup that they had filled with cocktails only a few weeks previously.
OTB regarding an Evening Herald article that suggests that KC would refuse to take part in a replay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh08-edCubM&t=638s
A small referring error that did not effect the outcome of the game has been blown all out of proportion with Joe Wally leading the charge.
Take a step back and have a lie down if needs be.
Glen objecting is absolute desperation stuff. If the GAA succumb to loud mouths in the press and order a replay, KC should politely decline and send the cup up the road in a taxi.
Ah sure why have any oul rules at all so!
As I said in the other thread, people, primarily from Dublin, appear to think that Kilmacud are some big bogeyman club that is the envy of the rest of the country when the truth is most people couldn't a toss. They're not footballing royalty of the likes of Cross or Corofin or Nemo.
The suggestion that people are angling more for a replay, and otherwise wouldn't, because it's Kilmacud, especially after the Walsh transfer, is laughable.
best of 3 series
Would the replay be saturday 4th if it happens
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:47:31 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 10:44:37 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 25, 2023, 10:20:37 AM
I think Glen have played their card and now it is back to the GAA to deal with it and decide on what course of action to take. Which will probably be to order a replay. What happens next then? Will Kilmacud refuse to play it and potentially forfeit the AI title and will Glen actually accept the replay offer and forfeit the game. If not this could drag on for weeks through an appeals process. Its messy for everyone and no matter the course of action there will be some people jumping up and down in fury.
I think it was on OTB that the GAA position was that the offended team has to object in order to limit the number of cases that reach the GAA.
But surely for an all Ireland final of national importance they could have a separate process.
The uncertainty must be difficult for the 2 clubs.
Conor Glass came back from Australia for days like Sunday. He couldn't have imagined this week.
He'd have enjoyed it more had he put that weak effort in the back of the net
Classy.
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:01:03 AM
A small referring error that did not effect the outcome of the game has been blown all out of proportion with Joe Wally leading the charge.
Take a step back and have a lie down if needs be.
Glen objecting is absolute desperation stuff. If the GAA succumb to loud mouths in the press and order a replay, KC should politely decline and send the cup up the road in a taxi.
Why do people keep coming out with this line of tripe? We have no idea one way or the other if it had an impact or not on the outcome of the game. It certainly had impact on that passage of play, whether it changed the outcome or not. Even if only 1 in 20 of these last gasp chances end in goals, whos to say it wasnt to be Glens lucky shot? We have no idea and that much is 100% certain.
Quote from: HiMucker on January 25, 2023, 11:09:35 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:01:03 AM
A small referring error that did not effect the outcome of the game has been blown all out of proportion with Joe Wally leading the charge.
Take a step back and have a lie down if needs be.
Glen objecting is absolute desperation stuff. If the GAA succumb to loud mouths in the press and order a replay, KC should politely decline and send the cup up the road in a taxi.
Why do people keep coming out with this line of tripe? We have no idea one way or the other if it had an impact or not on the outcome of the game. It certainly had impact on that passage of play, whether it changed the outcome or not. Even if only 1 in 20 of these last gasp chances end in goals, whos to say it wasnt to be Glens lucky shot? We have no idea and that much is 100% certain.
Are we going to replay every game in which refs make a mistake? The probability of Glen scoring a goal was low. Glen took the 45 before ref blew the whistle. It's the stuff of desperation on their behalf.
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:18:09 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on January 25, 2023, 11:09:35 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:01:03 AM
A small referring error that did not effect the outcome of the game has been blown all out of proportion with Joe Wally leading the charge.
Take a step back and have a lie down if needs be.
Glen objecting is absolute desperation stuff. If the GAA succumb to loud mouths in the press and order a replay, KC should politely decline and send the cup up the road in a taxi.
Why do people keep coming out with this line of tripe? We have no idea one way or the other if it had an impact or not on the outcome of the game. It certainly had impact on that passage of play, whether it changed the outcome or not. Even if only 1 in 20 of these last gasp chances end in goals, whos to say it wasnt to be Glens lucky shot? We have no idea and that much is 100% certain.
Are we going to replay every game in which refs make a mistake? The probability of Glen scoring a goal was low. Glen took the 45 before ref blew the whistle. It's the stuff of desperation on their behalf.
It's really not and as with all of these things they gauged public opinion and it's in their favour so they're going ahead with it which is their right!
Quote from: Maroon Manc on January 25, 2023, 10:27:19 AM
Quote from: SHEEDY on January 25, 2023, 10:06:37 AM
Some people are losing the run of themselves on this thread, some of the wild theories being thrown about are clear nonsense. A mistake was made on the sideline by the officials not to notice the player hadn't come off simple as that. Anybody suggesting Crokes deliberately left the man on the field as some sort of last minute ploy that's been hatched since last years final needs their head examined.
If it was the other way round would there be the same social media pile on looking a replay?
Agreed, can't imagine there's full agreement within the Glen camp on this either.
It shouldn't be a matter of opinion. It's the rules. The GAA should have dealt with this on Sunday. Social media loves a vacuum.
If a player takes 34 steps it's up to the ref to decide but 16 players goes against a fundamental rule of the game. Adding a player would be equivalent to changing the dimensions of the pitch.
Imagine in rugby if Ireland were 6 points down in the last minute and threw on an extra forward in a rolling maul or an extra back to get an overlap to beat NZ in the World Cup Final.
It would be insane.
What KC did was insane. Or else a tragedy of oversight. You can't have an extra man on the goal line.
It renders the win null and void.
Quote from: screenexile on January 25, 2023, 11:20:05 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:18:09 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on January 25, 2023, 11:09:35 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:01:03 AM
A small referring error that did not effect the outcome of the game has been blown all out of proportion with Joe Wally leading the charge.
Take a step back and have a lie down if needs be.
Glen objecting is absolute desperation stuff. If the GAA succumb to loud mouths in the press and order a replay, KC should politely decline and send the cup up the road in a taxi.
Why do people keep coming out with this line of tripe? We have no idea one way or the other if it had an impact or not on the outcome of the game. It certainly had impact on that passage of play, whether it changed the outcome or not. Even if only 1 in 20 of these last gasp chances end in goals, whos to say it wasnt to be Glens lucky shot? We have no idea and that much is 100% certain.
Are we going to replay every game in which refs make a mistake? The probability of Glen scoring a goal was low. Glen took the 45 before ref blew the whistle. It's the stuff of desperation on their behalf.
It's really not and as with all of these things they gauged public opinion and it's in their favour so they're going ahead with it which is their right!
Public opinion? Twitter and Joe Wally?
Quote from: HiMucker on January 25, 2023, 11:09:35 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:01:03 AM
A small referring error that did not effect the outcome of the game has been blown all out of proportion with Joe Wally leading the charge.
Take a step back and have a lie down if needs be.
Glen objecting is absolute desperation stuff. If the GAA succumb to loud mouths in the press and order a replay, KC should politely decline and send the cup up the road in a taxi.
Why do people keep coming out with this line of tripe? We have no idea one way or the other if it had an impact or not on the outcome of the game. It certainly had impact on that passage of play, whether it changed the outcome or not. Even if only 1 in 20 of these last gasp chances end in goals, whos to say it wasnt to be Glens lucky shot? We have no idea and that much is 100% certain.
Absolutely. Especially given the way Crokes lost last year and the fact Glen almost scored a goal not too long before from a ball in.
Moral Hazard: Lack of incentive to guard against risk where one is protected from its consequences
That is the one compelling reason for a replay - the setting of a ridiculous precedent.
If this is let go, then teams protecting a slender lead can sneak on an extra player to see the game out.
I think the other compelling one is to stop the GAA copping out of these decisions and trying to put any blame on teams that are involved. That should not be allowed.
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 25, 2023, 11:36:36 AM
I think the other compelling one is to stop the GAA copping out of these decisions and trying to put any blame on teams that are involved. That should not be allowed.
100%
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:18:09 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on January 25, 2023, 11:09:35 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:01:03 AM
A small referring error that did not effect the outcome of the game has been blown all out of proportion with Joe Wally leading the charge.
Take a step back and have a lie down if needs be.
Glen objecting is absolute desperation stuff. If the GAA succumb to loud mouths in the press and order a replay, KC should politely decline and send the cup up the road in a taxi.
Why do people keep coming out with this line of tripe? We have no idea one way or the other if it had an impact or not on the outcome of the game. It certainly had impact on that passage of play, whether it changed the outcome or not. Even if only 1 in 20 of these last gasp chances end in goals, whos to say it wasnt to be Glens lucky shot? We have no idea and that much is 100% certain.
Are we going to replay every game in which refs make a mistake? The probability of Glen scoring a goal was low. Glen took the 45 before ref blew the whistle. It's the stuff of desperation on their behalf.
No, just the ones were it clearly states in the rulebook what the outcome of those mistakes or rule breaches are, and when a team has appealed and are proven to be correct. Its not really that difficult. If the referee made a clear blunder not to give Glen a stonewall penalty at the end, no one including Glen would be appealing the outcome of the game and talking about a replay.
The other aspect not considered yet, if Glen are offered a replay, will they take it. This could be about Glen doing what we all want to see, make the Gaa take responsibility.
Quote from: shawshank on January 25, 2023, 11:40:49 AM
The other aspect not considered yet, if Glen are offered a replay, will they take it. This could be about Glen doing what we all want to see, make the Gaa take responsibility.
Lots of people have said Glen might not take the replay, even Glen people themselves.
Now hearing rumours that kilmacud won't play though, not sure what happens in that instance
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:18:09 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on January 25, 2023, 11:09:35 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:01:03 AM
A small referring error that did not effect the outcome of the game has been blown all out of proportion with Joe Wally leading the charge.
Take a step back and have a lie down if needs be.
Glen objecting is absolute desperation stuff. If the GAA succumb to loud mouths in the press and order a replay, KC should politely decline and send the cup up the road in a taxi.
Why do people keep coming out with this line of tripe? We have no idea one way or the other if it had an impact or not on the outcome of the game. It certainly had impact on that passage of play, whether it changed the outcome or not. Even if only 1 in 20 of these last gasp chances end in goals, whos to say it wasnt to be Glens lucky shot? We have no idea and that much is 100% certain.
Are we going to replay every game in which refs make a mistake? The probability of Glen scoring a goal was low. Glen took the 45 before ref blew the whistle. It's the stuff of desperation on their behalf.
Goals are more likely to be scored when players are tired , in Fergie time , ie in the last 5 minutes.
KC will never replay it and they're dead right. Absolute desperation stuff.
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:18:09 AM
Are we going to replay every game in which refs make a mistake?
No only those where the rules say the offence/mistake is serious enough to warrant a reply.
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:18:09 AM
The probability of Glen scoring a goal was low.
The probability of scoring a goal in the last kick of the game is always low, but it still happens frequently enough and for that reason you can't definitively say it wouldn't have happened here. After all, the odds were against Kilcoo scoring a goal at the death to win it last year but guess what happened? They did. You can't definitively say they would done so had Kilmacud an extra defender in the danger area that day too. So "probability" has precisely NOTHING to do with the debate.
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:18:09 AM
Are we going to replay every game in which refs make a mistake? The probability of Glen scoring a goal was low. Glen took the 45 before ref blew the whistle. It's the stuff of desperation on their behalf.
This isn't only a question of the referee. In this case, the other team broke the rules by not bringing their player off.
Glen took the FK before refs whistle. What is the sanction here?
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:18:09 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on January 25, 2023, 11:09:35 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:01:03 AM
A small referring error that did not effect the outcome of the game has been blown all out of proportion with Joe Wally leading the charge.
Take a step back and have a lie down if needs be.
Glen objecting is absolute desperation stuff. If the GAA succumb to loud mouths in the press and order a replay, KC should politely decline and send the cup up the road in a taxi.
Why do people keep coming out with this line of tripe? We have no idea one way or the other if it had an impact or not on the outcome of the game. It certainly had impact on that passage of play, whether it changed the outcome or not. Even if only 1 in 20 of these last gasp chances end in goals, whos to say it wasnt to be Glens lucky shot? We have no idea and that much is 100% certain.
Are we going to replay every game in which refs make a mistake? The probability of Glen scoring a goal was low. Glen took the 45 before ref blew the whistle. It's the stuff of desperation on their behalf.
KC were also 2 points ahead with 2 minutes left last year
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYui7_rrWyk
Trailer is a WUM
Quote from: smort on January 25, 2023, 11:57:39 AM
Trailer is a WUM
Yeah great retort. I disagree so I am a WUM.
Have a lie down ffs.
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 11:57:12 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:18:09 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on January 25, 2023, 11:09:35 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:01:03 AM
A small referring error that did not effect the outcome of the game has been blown all out of proportion with Joe Wally leading the charge.
Take a step back and have a lie down if needs be.
Glen objecting is absolute desperation stuff. If the GAA succumb to loud mouths in the press and order a replay, KC should politely decline and send the cup up the road in a taxi.
Why do people keep coming out with this line of tripe? We have no idea one way or the other if it had an impact or not on the outcome of the game. It certainly had impact on that passage of play, whether it changed the outcome or not. Even if only 1 in 20 of these last gasp chances end in goals, whos to say it wasnt to be Glens lucky shot? We have no idea and that much is 100% certain.
Are we going to replay every game in which refs make a mistake? The probability of Glen scoring a goal was low. Glen took the 45 before ref blew the whistle. It's the stuff of desperation on their behalf.
KC were also 2 points ahead with 2 minutes left last year
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYui7_rrWyk
And didn't Kilcoo score a goal direct from a 45 last year
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 11:57:12 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:18:09 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on January 25, 2023, 11:09:35 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:01:03 AM
A small referring error that did not effect the outcome of the game has been blown all out of proportion with Joe Wally leading the charge.
Take a step back and have a lie down if needs be.
Glen objecting is absolute desperation stuff. If the GAA succumb to loud mouths in the press and order a replay, KC should politely decline and send the cup up the road in a taxi.
Why do people keep coming out with this line of tripe? We have no idea one way or the other if it had an impact or not on the outcome of the game. It certainly had impact on that passage of play, whether it changed the outcome or not. Even if only 1 in 20 of these last gasp chances end in goals, whos to say it wasnt to be Glens lucky shot? We have no idea and that much is 100% certain.
Are we going to replay every game in which refs make a mistake? The probability of Glen scoring a goal was low. Glen took the 45 before ref blew the whistle. It's the stuff of desperation on their behalf.
KC were also 2 points ahead with 2 minutes left last year
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYui7_rrWyk
And what? That means nothing. Because something happened before doesn't mean it will happen again.
https://youtu.be/vRgx2Yw0-ME (https://youtu.be/vRgx2Yw0-ME)
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:53:49 AM
Glen took the FK before refs whistle. What is the sanction here?
They didn't.
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 12:05:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 11:57:12 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:18:09 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on January 25, 2023, 11:09:35 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:01:03 AM
A small referring error that did not effect the outcome of the game has been blown all out of proportion with Joe Wally leading the charge.
Take a step back and have a lie down if needs be.
Glen objecting is absolute desperation stuff. If the GAA succumb to loud mouths in the press and order a replay, KC should politely decline and send the cup up the road in a taxi.
Why do people keep coming out with this line of tripe? We have no idea one way or the other if it had an impact or not on the outcome of the game. It certainly had impact on that passage of play, whether it changed the outcome or not. Even if only 1 in 20 of these last gasp chances end in goals, whos to say it wasnt to be Glens lucky shot? We have no idea and that much is 100% certain.
Are we going to replay every game in which refs make a mistake? The probability of Glen scoring a goal was low. Glen took the 45 before ref blew the whistle. It's the stuff of desperation on their behalf.
KC were also 2 points ahead with 2 minutes left last year
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYui7_rrWyk
And what? That means nothing. Because something happened before doesn't mean it will happen again.
https://youtu.be/vRgx2Yw0-ME (https://youtu.be/vRgx2Yw0-ME)
The fact that it happened before means it CAN happen again
Quote from: armaghniac on January 25, 2023, 11:53:39 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:18:09 AM
Are we going to replay every game in which refs make a mistake? The probability of Glen scoring a goal was low. Glen took the 45 before ref blew the whistle. It's the stuff of desperation on their behalf.
This isn't only a question of the referee. In this case, the other team broke the rules by not bringing their player off.
Tell me or show me the rule as I haven't seen it, that the team that gives the slip to the 4th official, he then tells the ref that there are 2 subs coming on, that he then has to wait till the subs go off before restarting that KC management broke the rules?
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 25, 2023, 11:36:36 AM
I think the other compelling one is to stop the GAA copping out of these decisions and trying to put any blame on teams that are involved. That should not be allowed.
Lets hope it leads to a change in how a player is substituted because without that been changed this will happen again and again. Player coming off should be come to the line before sub is allowed on.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 12:13:26 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 25, 2023, 11:53:39 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:18:09 AM
Are we going to replay every game in which refs make a mistake? The probability of Glen scoring a goal was low. Glen took the 45 before ref blew the whistle. It's the stuff of desperation on their behalf.
This isn't only a question of the referee. In this case, the other team broke the rules by not bringing their player off.
Tell me or show me the rule as I haven't seen it, that the team that gives the slip to the 4th official, he then tells the ref that there are 2 subs coming on, that he then has to wait till the subs go off before restarting that KC management broke the rules?
Rule 2.1 below!
RULE 2 - THE PLAYERS
2.1 A team shall consist of fifteen players.
I don't believe KC management deliberately broke the rules, but I REALLY can't see how anyone can argue that they didn't break the rules (albeit for only about 30 seconds).
To me it's without question that the rules were broken. The severity of the punishment can be debated IMO. I think it warrants a replay - 'depending on the circumstances' (i.e. it was the last 30 seconds where all 16 players were behind the ball).
Exactly.
Nice and simple and Ref adds on time if the process is deliberately delayed.
I suspect all we'll see for now is a fine for Kilmacud ?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 12:13:26 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 25, 2023, 11:53:39 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:18:09 AM
Are we going to replay every game in which refs make a mistake? The probability of Glen scoring a goal was low. Glen took the 45 before ref blew the whistle. It's the stuff of desperation on their behalf.
This isn't only a question of the referee. In this case, the other team broke the rules by not bringing their player off.
Tell me or show me the rule as I haven't seen it, that the team that gives the slip to the 4th official, he then tells the ref that there are 2 subs coming on, that he then has to wait till the subs go off before restarting that KC management broke the rules?
16 players is a Category error. It is totally different to a ref mistake. It's equivalent to changing the dimensions of the pitch. It reaches the parts that steps cannot.
Of course KC have not explained why Mullin was on the goal line. But they have 3 days to tell the GAA their side.
Quote from: westbound on January 25, 2023, 12:25:16 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 12:13:26 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 25, 2023, 11:53:39 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:18:09 AM
Are we going to replay every game in which refs make a mistake? The probability of Glen scoring a goal was low. Glen took the 45 before ref blew the whistle. It's the stuff of desperation on their behalf.
This isn't only a question of the referee. In this case, the other team broke the rules by not bringing their player off.
Tell me or show me the rule as I haven't seen it, that the team that gives the slip to the 4th official, he then tells the ref that there are 2 subs coming on, that he then has to wait till the subs go off before restarting that KC management broke the rules?
Rule 2.1 below!
RULE 2 - THE PLAYERS
2.1 A team shall consist of fifteen players.
I don't believe KC management deliberately broke the rules, but I REALLY can't see how anyone can argue that they didn't break the rules (albeit for only about 30 seconds).
To me it's without question that the rules were broken. The severity of the punishment can be debated IMO. I think it warrants a replay - 'depending on the circumstances' (i.e. it was the last 30 seconds where all 16 players were behind the ball).
They followed procedure, who is there to enforce that? All I'm doing here is what will Croke park be doing to get out of this jam? The subs must leave the field of play before restarting the game.. Look for that rule
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:01:03 AM
A small referring error that did not effect the outcome of the game has been blown all out of proportion with Joe Wally leading the charge.
Take a step back and have a lie down if needs be.
Glen objecting is absolute desperation stuff. If the GAA succumb to loud mouths in the press and order a replay, KC should politely decline and send the cup up the road in a taxi.
How do you know it didn't affect the outcome? Do we just throw out all the rules now?
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:52:09 AM
KC will never replay it and they're dead right. Absolute desperation stuff.
You seem very upset by this. Are you ok?
Quote from: Dreadnought on January 25, 2023, 12:36:25 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:01:03 AM
A small referring error that did not effect the outcome of the game has been blown all out of proportion with Joe Wally leading the charge.
Take a step back and have a lie down if needs be.
Glen objecting is absolute desperation stuff. If the GAA succumb to loud mouths in the press and order a replay, KC should politely decline and send the cup up the road in a taxi.
How do you know it didn't affect the outcome? Do we just throw out all the rules now?
Nobody knows if it would have or not, the resulting shot wasn't on target but that doesn't matter, the rules haven't been changed and now Croke have to decide on a forfeit replay or a fine, based on the rules.. So if its a fine that should put it to bed or replay or a forfeit ;)
Quote from: Maroon Manc on January 25, 2023, 12:23:23 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 25, 2023, 11:36:36 AM
I think the other compelling one is to stop the GAA copping out of these decisions and trying to put any blame on teams that are involved. That should not be allowed.
Lets hope it leads to a change in how a player is substituted because without that been changed this will happen again and again. Player coming off should be come to the line before sub is allowed on.
Absolutely agree with this.
Quote from: trueblue1234 on January 25, 2023, 09:04:00 AM
WTF? Leave us the feck outa it. Neither whitey or Fearbrags are from the north.
Sorry TB! That bit was a joke gone wrong and wasn't appropriate even if they were.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 12:33:34 PM
Quote from: westbound on January 25, 2023, 12:25:16 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 12:13:26 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 25, 2023, 11:53:39 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:18:09 AM
Are we going to replay every game in which refs make a mistake? The probability of Glen scoring a goal was low. Glen took the 45 before ref blew the whistle. It's the stuff of desperation on their behalf.
This isn't only a question of the referee. In this case, the other team broke the rules by not bringing their player off.
Tell me or show me the rule as I haven't seen it, that the team that gives the slip to the 4th official, he then tells the ref that there are 2 subs coming on, that he then has to wait till the subs go off before restarting that KC management broke the rules?
Rule 2.1 below!
RULE 2 - THE PLAYERS
2.1 A team shall consist of fifteen players.
I don't believe KC management deliberately broke the rules, but I REALLY can't see how anyone can argue that they didn't break the rules (albeit for only about 30 seconds).
To me it's without question that the rules were broken. The severity of the punishment can be debated IMO. I think it warrants a replay - 'depending on the circumstances' (i.e. it was the last 30 seconds where all 16 players were behind the ball).
They followed procedure, who is there to enforce that? All I'm doing here is what will Croke park be doing to get out of this jam? The subs must leave the field of play before restarting the game.. Look for that rule
I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here,
I think you are in agreement that the rules were broken?
I said yesterday that it was ultimately the fault of the officials, but KC may have followed procedure and TRIED to play with only 15 on the field. But they HAD 16 (17!!!) on the field for the last play of them game. Therefore they definintely gained an advantage from breaking the rules - Even if they tried to do everything right.
So I really can't see how anyone can say that the rules weren't broken.
So, if we agree that the rules are broken then it is up to the committee in charge to determine the appropriate punishment.
If we think through the 3 possible options for punishment:
1) Award the game to glen? Glen were two points down with 30 seconds left, unlikely to get a goal to win, so therefore I believe this punishment wouldn't be a fair punishment for the 'crime'
2) a fine to KC - if we agree that it was an accidental break of the rules by KC and it was more a mistake by the referee, then it doesn't really make sense to issue a fine. Also, this punishment doesn't give any benefit to the team (Glen) that was affected by the rule break. Therefore I don't think this one is appropriate.
3) Replay - The only option left! Plus it gives KC the opportunity to win it again (I actually think they would win a replay with a bit to spare) and it recompenses Glen (i.e. they get the opportunity to win the game).
That's my thought process anyway.
This craic has definitely filled that wee void between club finishing and the county leagues starting up! Mad stuff altogether.
Quote from: westbound on January 25, 2023, 12:54:01 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 12:33:34 PM
Quote from: westbound on January 25, 2023, 12:25:16 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 12:13:26 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 25, 2023, 11:53:39 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:18:09 AM
Are we going to replay every game in which refs make a mistake? The probability of Glen scoring a goal was low. Glen took the 45 before ref blew the whistle. It's the stuff of desperation on their behalf.
This isn't only a question of the referee. In this case, the other team broke the rules by not bringing their player off.
Tell me or show me the rule as I haven't seen it, that the team that gives the slip to the 4th official, he then tells the ref that there are 2 subs coming on, that he then has to wait till the subs go off before restarting that KC management broke the rules?
Rule 2.1 below!
RULE 2 - THE PLAYERS
2.1 A team shall consist of fifteen players.
I don't believe KC management deliberately broke the rules, but I REALLY can't see how anyone can argue that they didn't break the rules (albeit for only about 30 seconds).
To me it's without question that the rules were broken. The severity of the punishment can be debated IMO. I think it warrants a replay - 'depending on the circumstances' (i.e. it was the last 30 seconds where all 16 players were behind the ball).
They followed procedure, who is there to enforce that? All I'm doing here is what will Croke park be doing to get out of this jam? The subs must leave the field of play before restarting the game.. Look for that rule
I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here,
I think you are in agreement that the rules were broken?
I said yesterday that it was ultimately the fault of the officials, but KC may have followed procedure and TRIED to play with only 15 on the field. But they HAD 16 (17!!!) on the field for the last play of them game. Therefore they definintely gained an advantage from breaking the rules - Even if they tried to do everything right.
So I really can't see how anyone can say that the rules weren't broken.
So, if we agree that the rules are broken then it is up to the committee in charge to determine the appropriate punishment.
If we think through the 3 possible options for punishment:
1) Award the game to glen? Glen were two points down with 30 seconds left, unlikely to get a goal to win, so therefore I believe this punishment wouldn't be a fair punishment for the 'crime'
2) a fine to KC - if we agree that it was an accidental break of the rules by KC and it was more a mistake by the referee, then it doesn't really make sense to issue a fine. Also, this punishment doesn't give any benefit to the team (Glen) that was affected by the rule break. Therefore I don't think this one is appropriate.
3) Replay - The only option left! Plus it gives KC the opportunity to win it again (I actually think they would win a replay with a bit to spare) and it recompenses Glen (i.e. they get the opportunity to win the game).
That's my thought process anyway.
Agree with all of that. Replay is the least worst option, not ideal for anyone but here we are. Best thing would have been the ref to order that last play to be retaken 15 v 15
Quote from: JoG2 on January 25, 2023, 12:55:44 PM
This craic has definitely filled that wee void between club finishing and the county leagues starting up! Mad stuff altogether.
Great craic isn't it
The process of substitution is covered within the TO where Rule 1.7 states
1.7 SUBSTITUTION ZONE.
An area of the sideline, extending 5m. on
either side of the centre-line, shall be marked
as the Substitution Zone, and all the players
coming off/going on to the field of play in acts
of substitution/temporary substitution shall go
through this point, when given permission by
the Referee
Mannion didn't comply not sure about the second sub.
From this it is almost certain that this will be strictly enforced in the Leagues and Championship.
With all the clamouring for a replay there may not be one offered.
With Glen submitting an objection it leaves the CCCC with an option that would not have been available to them if they commenced an investigation and this may have been their reason for not engaging -that of awarding of the game to the opposing team
6.44 Rules of Specification and Control - Penalties
Penalties for breaches of the above Rules shall be as
follows:
(a) A team failing to field fifteen players, inclusive of
players ordered off or retired injured, by the start of
the second half of a game:
Penalty : Forfeiture of Game and Award to the
GAMES - GENERAL
118
Opposing Team.
(b) (i) A team exceeding the number of players
permitted under Rule 2.1 Rules of Specification,
Playing Rules:
(ii) A team exceeding the number of substitutions
permitted under Rules 2.4 (i) and (ii) or
breaching Rule 2.4 (iv) (b), Rules of Specification,
Playing Rules:
Penalties:
On a proven Objection - Award of Game to the
Opposing Team, or Replay, or Fine, depending on the
circumstances.
On an Inquiry by the Committee-in-Charge -
Forfeiture of Game without Award of Game to the
Opposing Team, or Replay, or Fine, depending on the
circumstances
It is possible that the Andy Merrigan Cup could be going up the road in a taxi.
KC might not get the chance to refuse to field
They could do it like the Government. 6 months KC, 6 months Wattys
Take the replay to Newry, all ticket. It would be an unreal atmosphere.
Quote from: Truth hurts on January 25, 2023, 01:03:12 PM
Take the replay to Newry, all ticket. It would be an unreal atmosphere.
Clones.
https://www.rte.ie/sport/football/2023/0125/1351758-glen-launch-appeal-to-the-cccc-what-happens-next/investigation has begun.
What happens next?
The GAA forwarded Glen's objection to Kilmacud this morning. The Stillorgan-based club now have the right to counter object and have up to three days to do so, with the deadline arriving on 11am on Saturday.
Crokes had 16 players defending Glen's late 45
Kilmacud can also choose to proactively inform the CCCC that they won't be counter objecting.
If there is no objection this then allows the CCCC to schedule a hearing on the matter.
The third option available to Crokes is to submit a written admission that they had 16/17 players on the field as alleged in the objection by Glen.
If Kilmacud Crokes counter object or don't submit a written admission, a hearing will be held by the CCCC.
When this takes place depends on what course of action Crokes decide upon, and when they choose to respond.
It is understood that the CCCC would like to hold a hearing within 24 hours of any Kilmacud response. That could mean a hearing being held as early as Thursday or as late as Sunday.
Once the CCCC make a decision in the matter, three days are then allowed for an appeal against the decision.
If the CCCC decided the game has to be replayed, any potential rematch could take place as early as the weekend of 4/5 February.
Depending on the process it could be as late as 18 or 19 February as it's understood a Glen player is due to get married on 11 February.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 12:33:34 PM
Quote from: westbound on January 25, 2023, 12:25:16 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 12:13:26 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 25, 2023, 11:53:39 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:18:09 AM
Are we going to replay every game in which refs make a mistake? The probability of Glen scoring a goal was low. Glen took the 45 before ref blew the whistle. It's the stuff of desperation on their behalf.
This isn't only a question of the referee. In this case, the other team broke the rules by not bringing their player off.
Tell me or show me the rule as I haven't seen it, that the team that gives the slip to the 4th official, he then tells the ref that there are 2 subs coming on, that he then has to wait till the subs go off before restarting that KC management broke the rules?
Rule 2.1 below!
RULE 2 - THE PLAYERS
2.1 A team shall consist of fifteen players.
I don't believe KC management deliberately broke the rules, but I REALLY can't see how anyone can argue that they didn't break the rules (albeit for only about 30 seconds).
To me it's without question that the rules were broken. The severity of the punishment can be debated IMO. I think it warrants a replay - 'depending on the circumstances' (i.e. it was the last 30 seconds where all 16 players were behind the ball).
They followed procedure, who is there to enforce that? All I'm doing here is what will Croke park be doing to get out of this jam? The subs must leave the field of play before restarting the game.. Look for that rule
The same rule. You can only have 15 players on the field. There's no debate. Kilmacud broke this rule
If you think Croke Park are going to enter into a debate about the fact that the rules were broken, you're in cuckoo land
Referees generally apply common sense and restart a game when the player coming off is a few paces from the line (like Mannion), and generally it works fine
But I've never seen a referee restart a game when the player coming off is still standing on the goal line defending
It's one of those things - you didn't realise it was a problem until it was... but the whole thing clearly needs tightened up now
They player coming on can only enter the field of play AFTER the substituted player leaves it
It's suggested that Dublin County team have been at this for years esp since the black card came in. They have finished a number of games with 16 men on the field or 15 despite getting a player black carded. The apple does not fall far from the tree.
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 01:09:16 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/football/2023/0125/1351758-glen-launch-appeal-to-the-cccc-what-happens-next/investigation has begun.
What happens next?
The GAA forwarded Glen's objection to Kilmacud this morning. The Stillorgan-based club now have the right to counter object and have up to three days to do so, with the deadline arriving on 11am on Saturday.
Crokes had 16 players defending Glen's late 45
Kilmacud can also choose to proactively inform the CCCC that they won't be counter objecting.
If there is no objection this then allows the CCCC to schedule a hearing on the matter.
The third option available to Crokes is to submit a written admission that they had 16/17 players on the field as alleged in the objection by Glen.
If Kilmacud Crokes counter object or don't submit a written admission, a hearing will be held by the CCCC.
When this takes place depends on what course of action Crokes decide upon, and when they choose to respond.
It is understood that the CCCC would like to hold a hearing within 24 hours of any Kilmacud response. That could mean a hearing being held as early as Thursday or as late as Sunday.
Once the CCCC make a decision in the matter, three days are then allowed for an appeal against the decision.
If the CCCC decided the game has to be replayed, any potential rematch could take place as early as the weekend of 4/5 February.
Depending on the process it could be as late as 18 or 19 February as it's understood a Glen player is due to get married on 11 February.
Ciaran McFaul next due in court on 13th Feb, just to throw another spanner in the works.
Quote from: Maroon Manc on January 25, 2023, 12:23:23 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 25, 2023, 11:36:36 AM
I think the other compelling one is to stop the GAA copping out of these decisions and trying to put any blame on teams that are involved. That should not be allowed.
Lets hope it leads to a change in how a player is substituted because without that been changed this will happen again and again. Player coming off should be come to the line before sub is allowed on.
The irony is that this is likely precisely what Kilmacud were hoping would happen by bringing on the subs. Give them time to trudge off the pitch slowly to wind down the clock so that their players get set into position for the resultant set piece. Which is also probably why Tallon opted to take the 45 quickly to avoid such a scenario. How often do we see it in soccer where the substituted player walks off slowly wasting around 30 seconds as the sub waits on the sideline until he reaches the touchline. After the 45 was taken and the shot went wide, the referee put his hand in the air and ordered Mullin off the pitch and it is at that point that he should have reordered the kick to be retaken. But since it was likely the referees own decision to allow the quick 45 first time around he was never going to order a retake.
At no point in this will KC say they didn't have 16 players on the pitch, just forget about Mannion, it doesn't come into it all all, standing on the pitch side of the sideline is nowhere near what was going on.
The problem Glen may have is if Crokes said they followed procedure i.e sub slips and the 4th official let the ref know, but he waved it on (thinking the player had left) it will be a tough one to lose, as in forfeit, which within the overall rules they can lose it.
Croke park will have to wait for the referee's report first, they will not have seen it till after Glen put in an appeal, these things are generally posted or on occasions emailed, but I think this one will be meticulously written up.. Glen will get a copy as will KC so I'd say this is a big fecking headace now..
I really feel for the officials on that side and the ref tbh, because up to that point he'd a brilliant game, and it was a penalty ;)
Quote from: OrchardOrange on January 25, 2023, 01:22:36 PM
It's suggested that Dublin County team have been at this for years esp since the black card came in. They have finished a number of games with 16 men on the field or 15 despite getting a player black carded. The apple does not fall far from the tree.
which games
One thing Glen should factor in is that they'll get humped in any possible replay.
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 01:44:03 PM
One thing Glen should factor in is that they'll get humped in any possible replay.
On the evidence of Sunday there is clearly very little between the 2 sides so that is far from being the case. They would have every chance in a replayed fixture even moreso if it is taken out of Croke Park and if McFaul became available.
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 01:44:03 PM
One thing Glen should factor in is that they'll get humped in any possible replay.
They thought the same would happen to Offaly v Clare in 98.
During a period of 21 minutes either side of halftime they were held scoreless. They could definitely work on that.
It would be funny if after all the stone wall red cards and suspensions that got handed out in recent years and subsequent dubious appeals getting the player off, if a genuine appeal with definite rules broken ended up failing.
And by funny I mean farcical.
It's about time some independent 3rd party legal experts went through the gaa rulebook and appeals process in fine detail and made it ironclad.
I wonder is there much going on behind the scenes as to what will happen e.g if GAA order replay and Glenn don't accept and let KC keep the cup, they'll get compensated some other way
If a replay is ordered and kilmacud just don't play it, they'll be seen as the champions regardless
Quote from: yellowcard on January 25, 2023, 02:04:31 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 01:44:03 PM
One thing Glen should factor in is that they'll get humped in any possible replay.
On the evidence of Sunday there is clearly very little between the 2 sides so that is far from being the case. They would have every chance in a replayed fixture even moreso if it is taken out of Croke Park and if McFaul became available.
You do realise that if there is a replay it will take place within the next few weeks not this time next year? There is not a chance in hell that 1) McFaul will be home within weeks and 2) if by some miracle he is home that Glen will throw him into an All Ireland Final.
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 01:44:03 PM
One thing Glen should factor in is that they'll get humped in any possible replay.
You'd put your house on that?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 09:11:27 AM
You are looking at it from a 'gentlemans agreement, fairplay crap' The slips were given and its totally down to the officials that allowed play to continue while there was an extra man on the pitch.
The KC management alone have full responsibility to ensure that they have only 15 players on the field, and the officials have the responsibility to correct any transgressions in this regard. The officials definitely messed up but the KC are equally (if not more) culpable. Team management certainly has to supply the officials with the name of the subs, but those officials are not responsible for swapping the players on/off. If you can find a rule that states this I'd be happy to be corrected.
Quote from: square_ball on January 25, 2023, 02:30:42 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 25, 2023, 02:04:31 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 01:44:03 PM
One thing Glen should factor in is that they'll get humped in any possible replay.
On the evidence of Sunday there is clearly very little between the 2 sides so that is far from being the case. They would have every chance in a replayed fixture even moreso if it is taken out of Croke Park and if McFaul became available.
You do realise that if there is a replay it will take place within the next few weeks not this time next year? There is not a chance in hell that 1) McFaul will be home within weeks and 2) if by some miracle he is home that Glen will throw him into an All Ireland Final.
Agree. Some people have completely lost the run of themselves in this debate. Moaning about the Shane Walsh transfer, parachuting Ciaran McFaul in, replays, Joe Wally on the radio 24/7.
Crazy behaviour all round.
McFaul to score the winner off the bench after being brought on for Danny Tallon who is wrestling with Shane Walsh instead of coming off the field!
Quote from: OakLeaf on January 25, 2023, 02:33:06 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 09:11:27 AM
You are looking at it from a 'gentlemans agreement, fairplay crap' The slips were given and its totally down to the officials that allowed play to continue while there was an extra man on the pitch.
The KC management alone have full responsibility to ensure that they have only 15 players on the field, and the officials have the responsibility to correct any transgressions in this regard. The officials definitely messed up but the KC are equally (if not more) culpable. Team management certainly has to supply the officials with the name of the subs, but those officials are not responsible for swapping the players on/off. If you can find a rule that states this I'd be happy to be corrected.
That would certainly be my interpretation of it. If bulk of responsibility was down to officials, why would there even be a provision in the rules for punishing a team when breach occurs.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 01:29:05 PM
At no point in this will KC say they didn't have 16 players on the pitch, just forget about Mannion, it doesn't come into it all all, standing on the pitch side of the sideline is nowhere near what was going on.
The problem Glen may have is if Crokes said they followed procedure i.e sub slips and the 4th official let the ref know, but he waved it on (thinking the player had left) it will be a tough one to lose, as in forfeit, which within the overall rules they can lose it.
Croke park will have to wait for the referee's report first, they will not have seen it till after Glen put in an appeal, these things are generally posted or on occasions emailed, but I think this one will be meticulously written up.. Glen will get a copy as will KC so I'd say this is a big fecking headace now..
I really feel for the officials on that side and the ref tbh, because up to that point he'd a brilliant game, and it was a penalty ;)
Is this procedure documented anywhere? Where?
I understand what you say about feeling sorry for the ref... BUT
If he was informed about the transgression and didn't act, then I'm sorry, but no matter how good a game he had, this is a massive error in judgement
If he wasn't informed, then the 4th official has made the error as he should have been screaming on the radio to the ref to not restart the game
Controlling substitutions is his primary role
Assuming O'Rourke is a man of his word and he did inform the sideline official at the time, then, between them, the officials should have forced the 45 to be retaken
It would have been slightly controversial at the time, and even more so had Glen scored, but nothing to this shit storm
Some saying Glen should decline the replay now. Can't understand that!! It would be poor form as in kicking up about it, only to then not accept the offer of the reply.
All that would have achieved is destroying the KC celebrations. I'd be annoyed if Glen did that tbh. I do actually feel sorry for the KC players, as what should have been a fantastic week celebrating, has been cut short (rightly). But the least they deserve is the chance to win it again and to properly experience it this time. Or to lose fairly. If Glen turn round now and say they weren't going to play the replay, it would be a underwhelming way for KC to win it and I'd feel it was pointless objecting.
I think KC need to get out quick and agree with the appeal and take whatever the GAA send them. If it's a reply then get it done ASAP and let the winner get on with it. No point acting the martyr and forfeiting the opportunity of a replay, again that's no way for Glen to win it.
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 25, 2023, 02:38:21 PM
McFaul to score the winner off the bench after being brought on for Danny Tallon who is wrestling with Shane Walsh instead of coming off the field!
I have a feeling McFaul's only chance of scoring a winner in the next 3-4 years is if he lines out for the Crips vs the Bloods in the yard's annual 5 a side.
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 02:41:22 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 01:29:05 PM
At no point in this will KC say they didn't have 16 players on the pitch, just forget about Mannion, it doesn't come into it all all, standing on the pitch side of the sideline is nowhere near what was going on.
The problem Glen may have is if Crokes said they followed procedure i.e sub slips and the 4th official let the ref know, but he waved it on (thinking the player had left) it will be a tough one to lose, as in forfeit, which within the overall rules they can lose it.
Croke park will have to wait for the referee's report first, they will not have seen it till after Glen put in an appeal, these things are generally posted or on occasions emailed, but I think this one will be meticulously written up.. Glen will get a copy as will KC so I'd say this is a big fecking headace now..
I really feel for the officials on that side and the ref tbh, because up to that point he'd a brilliant game, and it was a penalty ;)
Is this procedure documented anywhere? Where?
I understand what you say about feeling sorry for the ref... BUT
If he was informed about the transgression and didn't act, then I'm sorry, but no matter how good a game he had, this is a massive error in judgement
If he wasn't informed, then the 4th official has made the error as he should have been screaming on the radio to the ref to not restart the game
Controlling substitutions is his primary role
Assuming O'Rourke is a man of his word and he did inform the sideline official at the time, then, between them, the officials should have forced the 45 to be retaken
It would have been slightly controversial at the time, and even more so had Glen scored, but nothing to this shit storm
The rule is clear and states that there are 3 possible scenarios. One - Glen are awarded the game. 2 - A replay. 3. A fine. Based on the severity of the transgression it is clear to me the only fair solution is a fine.
Quote from: OakLeaf on January 25, 2023, 02:33:06 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 09:11:27 AM
You are looking at it from a 'gentlemans agreement, fairplay crap' The slips were given and its totally down to the officials that allowed play to continue while there was an extra man on the pitch.
The KC management alone have full responsibility to ensure that they have only 15 players on the field, and the officials have the responsibility to correct any transgressions in this regard. The officials definitely messed up but the KC are equally (if not more) culpable. Team management certainly has to supply the officials with the name of the subs, but those officials are not responsible for swapping the players on/off. If you can find a rule that states this I'd be happy to be corrected.
The referee must restart the play
after the sub leaves and there are 15 players (providing no black cards or red cards) KC gave the slip notification given .. Are you saying they should literally pull him off the park?
all the players
coming off/going on to the field of play in acts
of substitution/temporary substitution shall go
through this point, when given permission by
the Referee. Except when there is an injury, the player can leave nearest available place
A Substitution may only be made during a break
in play, after the player has given a substitution
note to the Referee, or in the case of a InterCounty Senior game, to the Sideline Official.
This shall also apply to a Temporary Substitution
allowed under Rule 1.5 (b), Rules of Control -
Injuries: Blood or Suspected Head Injury.
A break in play shall be when the play is stopped
after a score or wide or for a free, sideline puck/
kick or when the Referee has stopped play for
medical attention to an injured player.
There isn't a rule that says you have to pull the player off the pitch, if they followed the above rules and it wasn't adhered to by the ref then that's on him unfortunately..
Quote from: pbat on January 25, 2023, 02:48:10 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 25, 2023, 02:38:21 PM
McFaul to score the winner off the bench after being brought on for Danny Tallon who is wrestling with Shane Walsh instead of coming off the field!
I have a feeling McFaul's only chance of scoring a winner in the next 3-4 years is if he lines out for the Crips vs the Bloods in the yard's annual 5 a side.
Mean machine
Quote from: lenny on January 25, 2023, 02:52:57 PM
The rule is clear and states that there are 3 possible scenarios. One - Glen are awarded the game. 2 - A replay. 3. A fine. Based on the severity of the transgression it is clear to me the only fair solution is a fine.
What I've heard before (from someone in the know) is you get a fine for a player who is on his way off but hasn't made it by the time the referee restarts play. In other words not involved in the play at that stage. A replay is when there is an extra player(s) on who is involved in the play but through a genuine mistake as opposed to anything malicious. A forfeit would be similar to the previous example except that it can be proven that the offending team did this on purpose to gain an advantage.
I suspect this will go to a replay but it's the CCCC so anything is possible! Sometimes they make it up as they go along. One thing is for sure, it's yet another example of how our rules are too open to interpretation.
A fine for KC doesn't help Glen much though. Between KC and the officials it's pretty poor stuff in as high profile a game as an AI final that players didn't come off the pitch.
If Glen do get offered a reply, and Crokes refuse to play it then it's hard to see how this is going to get resolved without them having to forfeit. Both sides lose in that case.
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 02:41:22 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 01:29:05 PM
At no point in this will KC say they didn't have 16 players on the pitch, just forget about Mannion, it doesn't come into it all all, standing on the pitch side of the sideline is nowhere near what was going on.
The problem Glen may have is if Crokes said they followed procedure i.e sub slips and the 4th official let the ref know, but he waved it on (thinking the player had left) it will be a tough one to lose, as in forfeit, which within the overall rules they can lose it.
Croke park will have to wait for the referee's report first, they will not have seen it till after Glen put in an appeal, these things are generally posted or on occasions emailed, but I think this one will be meticulously written up.. Glen will get a copy as will KC so I'd say this is a big fecking headace now..
I really feel for the officials on that side and the ref tbh, because up to that point he'd a brilliant game, and it was a penalty ;)
Is this procedure documented anywhere? Where?
I understand what you say about feeling sorry for the ref... BUT
If he was informed about the transgression and didn't act, then I'm sorry, but no matter how good a game he had, this is a massive error in judgement
If he wasn't informed, then the 4th official has made the error as he should have been screaming on the radio to the ref to not restart the game
Controlling substitutions is his primary role
Assuming O'Rourke is a man of his word and he did inform the sideline official at the time, then, between them, the officials should have forced the 45 to be retaken
It would have been slightly controversial at the time, and even more so had Glen scored, but nothing to this shit storm
You would assume that the names came up on the big screen, and on the board because they just didn't come from thin air, Croke have a fourth official and they also have others that link up to the big screen and the whoever looks after the PA system, the ref is mic'd up and that call was made on subs in next break of play (the 45) he'd have known, the assumption is he thought possibly, as he didn't count the 29 players that were all in that area (barring the Glen Keeper) that 14 left the field behind the nets, that's his mistake
The documentation will be the Ref's report.. that is all Croke can go with
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 03:00:26 PM
The referee must restart the play after the sub leaves and there are 15 players (providing no black cards or red cards) KC gave the slip notification given .. Are you saying they should literally pull him off the park?
all the players
coming off/going on to the field of play in acts
of substitution/temporary substitution shall go
through this point, when given permission by
the Referee. Except when there is an injury, the player can leave nearest available place
A Substitution may only be made during a break
in play, after the player has given a substitution
note to the Referee, or in the case of a InterCounty Senior game, to the Sideline Official.
This shall also apply to a Temporary Substitution
allowed under Rule 1.5 (b), Rules of Control -
Injuries: Blood or Suspected Head Injury.
A break in play shall be when the play is stopped
after a score or wide or for a free, sideline puck/
kick or when the Referee has stopped play for
medical attention to an injured player.
There isn't a rule that says you have to pull the player off the pitch, if they followed the above rules and it wasn't adhered to by the ref then that's on him unfortunately..
As I've indicated before the referee/officials definitely need to shoulder some of the blame, but not all of it. None of what you've listed above relieves of the KC's management responsibility to ensure that they have 15 players on the field. The referee must give permission for the sub, and yes he should not restart play until the replaced player is off. The sideline officials have the responsibility to ensure that the subs take place from the technical zone. It's clear the referee messed up and I'm not arguing that. What I am objecting to is you putting the entire blame on the ref. That is clearly wrong. To do that is absolving the KC management of all responsibility.
Quote from: lenny on January 25, 2023, 02:52:57 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 02:41:22 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 01:29:05 PM
At no point in this will KC say they didn't have 16 players on the pitch, just forget about Mannion, it doesn't come into it all all, standing on the pitch side of the sideline is nowhere near what was going on.
The problem Glen may have is if Crokes said they followed procedure i.e sub slips and the 4th official let the ref know, but he waved it on (thinking the player had left) it will be a tough one to lose, as in forfeit, which within the overall rules they can lose it.
Croke park will have to wait for the referee's report first, they will not have seen it till after Glen put in an appeal, these things are generally posted or on occasions emailed, but I think this one will be meticulously written up.. Glen will get a copy as will KC so I'd say this is a big fecking headace now..
I really feel for the officials on that side and the ref tbh, because up to that point he'd a brilliant game, and it was a penalty ;)
Is this procedure documented anywhere? Where?
I understand what you say about feeling sorry for the ref... BUT
If he was informed about the transgression and didn't act, then I'm sorry, but no matter how good a game he had, this is a massive error in judgement
If he wasn't informed, then the 4th official has made the error as he should have been screaming on the radio to the ref to not restart the game
Controlling substitutions is his primary role
Assuming O'Rourke is a man of his word and he did inform the sideline official at the time, then, between them, the officials should have forced the 45 to be retaken
It would have been slightly controversial at the time, and even more so had Glen scored, but nothing to this shit storm
The rule is clear and states that there are 3 possible scenarios. One - Glen are awarded the game. 2 - A replay. 3. A fine. Based on the severity of the transgression it is clear to me the only fair solution is a fine.
Let's look at what is at stake in the final minutes of a football match. This is where games are won and lost as Kilcoo showed against Kilmacud last year.
Let's throw the same situation into another scenario.
2017 AI Final: Dublin Mayo. May 1pt with for the last play. They have a kickout.
https://youtu.be/iYBFoI-fznE?t=6134
Dublin apply a full court press. Every Mayo player is being tightly marked, or illegally held.
Now let us imagine, Dublin make a substitute, but substituted player stays on the pitch. It's hypothetical, but do I believe that they didn't do it on purpose - do I give the benefit of the doubt? An honest mistake in the heat of the moment? Blame the referee, linesman, fourth official? Or is it the worst kind of cynicism with a £5,000 fine coming the winner's way, but no way are they going to lose that kickout?
Either way, the loosing team robbed of an opportunity to equalise. These moments are the essence of the game. A whole season or career distilled into those few seconds.
There is no way a fine is the appropriate penalty, because you cannot give the benefit of the doubt in this scenario. All you do with a fine is encourage cynicism.
Quote from: OakLeaf on January 25, 2023, 03:03:08 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 25, 2023, 02:52:57 PM
The rule is clear and states that there are 3 possible scenarios. One - Glen are awarded the game. 2 - A replay. 3. A fine. Based on the severity of the transgression it is clear to me the only fair solution is a fine.
What I've heard before (from someone in the know) is you get a fine for a player who is on his way off but hasn't made it by the time the referee restarts play. In other words not involved in the play at that stage. A replay is when there is an extra player(s) on who is involved in the play but through a genuine mistake as opposed to anything malicious. A forfeit would be similar to the previous example except that it can be proven that the offending team did this on purpose to gain an advantage.
I suspect this will go to a replay but it's the CCCC so anything is possible! Sometimes they make it up as they go along. One thing is for sure, it's yet another example of how our rules are too open to interpretation.
That would be the common sense application of the rules anyway!
Quote from: OakLeaf on January 25, 2023, 03:14:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 03:00:26 PM
The referee must restart the play after the sub leaves and there are 15 players (providing no black cards or red cards) KC gave the slip notification given .. Are you saying they should literally pull him off the park?
all the players
coming off/going on to the field of play in acts
of substitution/temporary substitution shall go
through this point, when given permission by
the Referee. Except when there is an injury, the player can leave nearest available place
A Substitution may only be made during a break
in play, after the player has given a substitution
note to the Referee, or in the case of a InterCounty Senior game, to the Sideline Official.
This shall also apply to a Temporary Substitution
allowed under Rule 1.5 (b), Rules of Control -
Injuries: Blood or Suspected Head Injury.
A break in play shall be when the play is stopped
after a score or wide or for a free, sideline puck/
kick or when the Referee has stopped play for
medical attention to an injured player.
There isn't a rule that says you have to pull the player off the pitch, if they followed the above rules and it wasn't adhered to by the ref then that's on him unfortunately..
As I've indicated before the referee/officials definitely need to shoulder some of the blame, but not all of it. None of what you've listed above relieves of the KC's management responsibility to ensure that they have 15 players on the field. The referee must give permission for the sub, and yes he should not restart play until the replaced player is off. The sideline officials have the responsibility to ensure that the subs take place from the technical zone. It's clear the referee messed up and I'm not arguing that. What I am objecting to is you putting the entire blame on the ref. That is clearly wrong. To do that is absolving the KC management of all responsibility.
KC can't restart the game, we are talking 30 to 45 seconds here, not minutes whether this extra information (sub's player hasn't left pitch yet) was given to the ref we don't know. But the reality is unfortunately this player, didn't leave or knew he had to leave and wasn't informed by the player coming on, as he positioned himself elsewhere.
Now you can huff and puff about KC breaking the rules, but they'll have really only broke the rules if they sent on a player with no notification to the officials!
Quote from: lenny on January 25, 2023, 02:52:57 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 02:41:22 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 01:29:05 PM
At no point in this will KC say they didn't have 16 players on the pitch, just forget about Mannion, it doesn't come into it all all, standing on the pitch side of the sideline is nowhere near what was going on.
The problem Glen may have is if Crokes said they followed procedure i.e sub slips and the 4th official let the ref know, but he waved it on (thinking the player had left) it will be a tough one to lose, as in forfeit, which within the overall rules they can lose it.
Croke park will have to wait for the referee's report first, they will not have seen it till after Glen put in an appeal, these things are generally posted or on occasions emailed, but I think this one will be meticulously written up.. Glen will get a copy as will KC so I'd say this is a big fecking headace now..
I really feel for the officials on that side and the ref tbh, because up to that point he'd a brilliant game, and it was a penalty ;)
Is this procedure documented anywhere? Where?
I understand what you say about feeling sorry for the ref... BUT
If he was informed about the transgression and didn't act, then I'm sorry, but no matter how good a game he had, this is a massive error in judgement
If he wasn't informed, then the 4th official has made the error as he should have been screaming on the radio to the ref to not restart the game
Controlling substitutions is his primary role
Assuming O'Rourke is a man of his word and he did inform the sideline official at the time, then, between them, the officials should have forced the 45 to be retaken
It would have been slightly controversial at the time, and even more so had Glen scored, but nothing to this shit storm
The rule is clear and states that there are 3 possible scenarios. One - Glen are awarded the game. 2 - A replay. 3. A fine. Based on the severity of the transgression it is clear to me the only fair solution is a fine.
Based on that post it is clear to me that you shouldn't be involved in any GAA disciplinary processes
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 03:24:51 PM
Quote from: OakLeaf on January 25, 2023, 03:14:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 03:00:26 PM
The referee must restart the play after the sub leaves and there are 15 players (providing no black cards or red cards) KC gave the slip notification given .. Are you saying they should literally pull him off the park?
all the players
coming off/going on to the field of play in acts
of substitution/temporary substitution shall go
through this point, when given permission by
the Referee. Except when there is an injury, the player can leave nearest available place
A Substitution may only be made during a break
in play, after the player has given a substitution
note to the Referee, or in the case of a InterCounty Senior game, to the Sideline Official.
This shall also apply to a Temporary Substitution
allowed under Rule 1.5 (b), Rules of Control -
Injuries: Blood or Suspected Head Injury.
A break in play shall be when the play is stopped
after a score or wide or for a free, sideline puck/
kick or when the Referee has stopped play for
medical attention to an injured player.
There isn't a rule that says you have to pull the player off the pitch, if they followed the above rules and it wasn't adhered to by the ref then that's on him unfortunately..
As I've indicated before the referee/officials definitely need to shoulder some of the blame, but not all of it. None of what you've listed above relieves of the KC's management responsibility to ensure that they have 15 players on the field. The referee must give permission for the sub, and yes he should not restart play until the replaced player is off. The sideline officials have the responsibility to ensure that the subs take place from the technical zone. It's clear the referee messed up and I'm not arguing that. What I am objecting to is you putting the entire blame on the ref. That is clearly wrong. To do that is absolving the KC management of all responsibility.
KC can't restart the game, we are talking 30 to 45 seconds here, not minutes whether this extra information (sub's player hasn't left pitch yet) was given to the ref we don't know. But the reality is unfortunately this player, didn't leave or knew he had to leave and wasn't informed by the player coming on, as he positioned himself elsewhere.
Now you can huff and puff about KC breaking the rules, but they'll have really only broke the rules if they sent on a player with no notification to the officials!
Sorry milltown, I don't agree with your last sentence at all.
KC had 16 players on the pitch - that IS a breach of the rules.
Now, I don't disagree with a lot of what you say and that the officials were at fault. BUT playing with 16 players IS a break of the rules.
Choosing a punishment that fits the crime is a different matter
For example, Paul mannion remaining on the pitch is also a breach of the rule. But I think everyone would think everyone would agree that the MAXIMUM punishment for that type of 'indiscretion' should be a fine (and most likely no punishment at all). But defending a passage of play with 16men (virtually inside your own 21 yard line) while the opposition NEED a goal is surely a greater indiscretion than the Paul Mannion offcence and therefore deserving of a bigger punishment?
Anyways, lets see how KC approach this when given their options by Croke, we need to take away the ambiguity of the rules, they are so open to 'abuse' they ain't clear cut and the process of appeals seems flawed also.
Westbound, KC didn't send on 16 or 17 players they started each half with 15 and made subs during that time, the process of games being restarted after a sub was made wasn't adhered to, that wasn't KC's fault, we are talking about 30 seconds or so, there was a mistake, no doubt unwittingly by some official and this is what we have.
I expect Kilmacud with their millions will have a legal defense team that will tear the GAA legal team apart and stop any chance of a replay
I don't see how whether it's the gaa or Kilmacud that are at fault for the mistake matters. Surely that has no bearing on whether there's a replay or not. The replay is because of the mistake not who's fault it is.
A fine is a non starter as far as I'm concerned. The main fault lies with the officials who should be stood down for a number of matches for making what was an honest mistake but a critical mistake nonetheless. The only truly equitable scenario is to start the play from the last 45 with Glen 2 points down, however since that is not possible the only sanction within the rulebook is the ordering of a replay. Which would be very harsh on Kilmacud but the rules are there for a reason.
This has opened up a whole can of worms though and there could well be a raft of objections up and down the country now as a result of this. If it had happened pre social media then it would have been old news a couple of days ago.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 03:34:58 PM
Anyways, lets see how KC approach this when given their options by Croke, we need to take away the ambiguity of the rules, they are so open to 'abuse' they ain't clear cut and the process of appeals seems flawed also.
Westbound, KC didn't send on 16 or 17 players they started each half with 15 and made subs during that time, the process of games being restarted after a sub was made wasn't adhered to, that wasn't KC's fault, we are talking about 30 seconds or so, there was a mistake, no doubt unwittingly by some official and this is what we have.
I agree it was a mistake.
But rules can be broken by accident.
At least it filled the last few days with talking shite!! ;D
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 03:40:37 PM
At least it filled the last few days with talking shite!! ;D
;D ;D Very true
I better go do some work! ;D
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 11:53:49 AM
Glen took the FK before refs whistle. What is the sanction here?
I suggest you have another look before saying anything else. Ref blew his whistle then Danny Tallon took the free.
Quote from: westbound on January 25, 2023, 03:39:37 PM
I agree it was a mistake.
But rules can be broken by accident.
I've very little doubt that the rule was broken by accident. A wise man once told me, don't go to the court looking for justice, because all you'll get is the law! In this case KC had 16 men defending the 45 regardless of how long it was for or whose fault it was. It's a shitty situation. I dare say we wont come out of it with everybody happy. I just hope is doesn't drag out beyond whatever decision the CCCC makes.
Quote from: blanketattack on January 25, 2023, 03:35:14 PM
I expect Kilmacud with their millions will have a legal defense team that will tear the GAA legal team apart and stop any chance of a replay
I don't see how whether it's the gaa or Kilmacud that are at fault for the mistake matters. Surely that has no bearing on whether there's a replay or not. The replay is because of the mistake not who's fault it is.
They can get the same folks who got Connolly off after all other appeals failed all those years ago. 2016 or 2017 i think.
Quote from: OakLeaf on January 25, 2023, 03:51:29 PM
Quote from: westbound on January 25, 2023, 03:39:37 PM
I agree it was a mistake.
But rules can be broken by accident.
I've very little doubt that the rule was broken by accident. A wise man once told me, don't go to the court looking for justice, because all you'll get is the law! In this case KC had 16 men defending the 45 regardless of how long it was for or whose fault it was. It's a shitty situation. I dare say we wont come out of it with everybody happy. I just hope is doesn't drag out beyond whatever decision the CCCC makes.
Could end up like the mess with the 2020 Donegal county final (played autumn 2021).
Naomh Chonaill used too many subs in extra time, so Kilcar objected to their win on penalties.
Replay ordered by Donegal CCC, NC appealed to Ulster CCC who told them to start it all again, then eventually Donegal CCC let NC keep the win but fined them 5000 euro.
Only took until February 2022 to resolve!
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2022/0209/1278712-kilcar-shocked-and-appalled-as-2020-final-saga-closes/ (https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2022/0209/1278712-kilcar-shocked-and-appalled-as-2020-final-saga-closes/)
The rules were broken - irrespective if it was by accident or not there has to be consequences.
Given the situation it makes sense that a minor fine for Mannion being on the pitch and then a replay for the player staying on during the phase of play.
There is a big however - if it had occured during say the first half what would the outcome of an appeal be?
It doesnt state anywhere in the rule book about when the infraction occurs (1st minute, 20th minute, last minute) so the GAA are in a hiding to nothing here.
If a replay is ordered (no guarantee both teams agree to this) then this coming season is going to be a shitshow in terms how how club games are ran. If teams see a precedent being set then they will find every angle they can.
One thing is for sure - there has to be an amendment that it is the clubs duty to ensure they dont have more than 15 men on the field. This way the officials cannot get the brunt of it
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 03:34:58 PM
Anyways, lets see how KC approach this when given their options by Croke, we need to take away the ambiguity of the rules, they are so open to 'abuse' they ain't clear cut and the process of appeals seems flawed also.
Westbound, KC didn't send on 16 or 17 players they started each half with 15 and made subs during that time, the process of games being restarted after a sub was made wasn't adhered to, that wasn't KC's fault, we are talking about 30 seconds or so, there was a mistake, no doubt unwittingly by some official and this is what we have.
KC management also made a mistake in ensuring that the FF didn't leave the pitch. You can't blame everything on the officials.
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 05:05:42 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 03:34:58 PM
Anyways, lets see how KC approach this when given their options by Croke, we need to take away the ambiguity of the rules, they are so open to 'abuse' they ain't clear cut and the process of appeals seems flawed also.
Westbound, KC didn't send on 16 or 17 players they started each half with 15 and made subs during that time, the process of games being restarted after a sub was made wasn't adhered to, that wasn't KC's fault, we are talking about 30 seconds or so, there was a mistake, no doubt unwittingly by some official and this is what we have.
KC management also made a mistake in ensuring that the FF didn't leave the pitch. You can't blame everything on the officials.
It's a balls up by the officials. How do KC get any sort of message onto the field in the madness of the closing stages of the game. Either Tallon took the 45 too quick or the ref didn't hold play up to facilitate the sub. Either way blaming this solely on KC is ridiculous.
It's a small referring error, it happens in nearly every game. Glen ought to get over it. They wouldn't have won had they played on until Monday. Joe and his band of goons on twitter would want to move onto the next issue that they want to batter the GAA with.
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 05:10:50 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 05:05:42 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 03:34:58 PM
Anyways, lets see how KC approach this when given their options by Croke, we need to take away the ambiguity of the rules, they are so open to 'abuse' they ain't clear cut and the process of appeals seems flawed also.
Westbound, KC didn't send on 16 or 17 players they started each half with 15 and made subs during that time, the process of games being restarted after a sub was made wasn't adhered to, that wasn't KC's fault, we are talking about 30 seconds or so, there was a mistake, no doubt unwittingly by some official and this is what we have.
KC management also made a mistake in ensuring that the FF didn't leave the pitch. You can't blame everything on the officials.
It's a balls up by the officials. How do KC get any sort of message onto the field in the madness of the closing stages of the game. Either Tallon took the 45 too quick or the ref didn't hold play up to facilitate the sub. Either way blaming this solely on KC is ridiculous.
It's a small referring error, it happens in nearly every game. Glen ought to get over it. They wouldn't have won had they played on until Monday. Joe and his band of goons on twitter would want to move onto the next issue that they want to batter the GAA with.
Don't think many are solely blaming kc however they choose to send 2 players on injury time to waste time so they have to accept a large part of the responsibility. Hopefully the gaa will do something about running on subs to waste time but I doubt it. They really are useless at addressing aspects of the game which actually need addressed.
The GAA need a faster process for high profile advanced shithousery that goes beyond the authority of the ref such as destroying goalposts, reducing pitch size and playing more than 15 players . It's Wednesday evening and there is still a void where there should be clarity. Rules are about compliance. There have to be defined processes for non compliance for all Ireland finals.
Quote from: trailer on January 25, 2023, 05:10:50 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 05:05:42 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 03:34:58 PM
Anyways, lets see how KC approach this when given their options by Croke, we need to take away the ambiguity of the rules, they are so open to 'abuse' they ain't clear cut and the process of appeals seems flawed also.
Westbound, KC didn't send on 16 or 17 players they started each half with 15 and made subs during that time, the process of games being restarted after a sub was made wasn't adhered to, that wasn't KC's fault, we are talking about 30 seconds or so, there was a mistake, no doubt unwittingly by some official and this is what we have.
KC management also made a mistake in ensuring that the FF didn't leave the pitch. You can't blame everything on the officials.
.
It's a balls up by the officials. How do KC get any sort of message onto the field in the madness of the closing stages of the game. Either Tallon took the 45 too quick or the ref didn't hold play up to facilitate the sub. Either way blaming this solely on KC is ridiculous.
It's a small referring error, it happens in nearly every game. Glen ought to get over it. They wouldn't have won had they played on until Monday. Joe and his band of goons on twitter would want to move onto the next issue that they want to batter the GAA with.
Number of players is not a refereeing error. It's rule 6.44 which doesn't mention how many seconds.
And it was a one score game at the time. It doesn't take 30 seconds to score a goal
Has anyone questioned what the many officials was at to allow the game re-start with the too many Kilmacud Crokes players on the field? Those officials won't or shouldn't be getting another All-Ireland final anytime soon.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on January 25, 2023, 05:47:33 PM
Has anyone questioned what the many officials was at to allow the game re-start with the too many Kilmacud Crokes players on the field? Those officials won't or shouldn't be getting another All-Ireland final anytime soon.
It can and does happen. It was very chaotic at the time and the onus (rightly or wrongly) is on the teams to get their subs off.
But for what happened afterwards, being informed of the error and just ignoring it and blowing up the game, for experienced officials in a game of such magnitude, it most definitely should be a huge blot on the copy book.
Former GAA President Nicky Brennan on OTB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh08-edCubM&t=3450s
The more this goes on the more I think KC will be awarded the title with no sanction at all. They did everything by the book. They sent the subs to the sideline to go on and it was the fault of the officials who didn't ensure 2 players left the field first. The ref seems to have been aware that the players hadn't left the field but allowed Glen the quick 45 and they almost got a goal from it. Immediately after the 45 the ref ensured the player went off. This rule is intended for teams who try to sneak players on without going through the correct procedures.
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 25, 2023, 06:34:34 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on January 25, 2023, 05:47:33 PM
Has anyone questioned what the many officials was at to allow the game re-start with the too many Kilmacud Crokes players on the field? Those officials won't or shouldn't be getting another All-Ireland final anytime soon.
It can and does happen. It was very chaotic at the time and the onus (rightly or wrongly) is on the teams to get their subs off.
But for what happened afterwards, being informed of the error and just ignoring it and blowing up the game, for experienced officials in a game of such magnitude, it most definitely should be a huge blot on the copy book.
But then again if the ref blows his whistle and stops the quick forty-five because a substitution is still in progress there'd be a crying session as well. They can't win sometimes. It's easy being an expert on it with the benefit of hindsight.
Quote from: Sportacus on January 25, 2023, 06:55:54 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 25, 2023, 06:34:34 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on January 25, 2023, 05:47:33 PM
Has anyone questioned what the many officials was at to allow the game re-start with the too many Kilmacud Crokes players on the field? Those officials won't or shouldn't be getting another All-Ireland final anytime soon.
It can and does happen. It was very chaotic at the time and the onus (rightly or wrongly) is on the teams to get their subs off.
But for what happened afterwards, being informed of the error and just ignoring it and blowing up the game, for experienced officials in a game of such magnitude, it most definitely should be a huge blot on the copy book.
But then again if the ref blows his whistle and stops the quick forty-five because a substitution is still in progress there'd be a crying session as well. They can't win sometimes. It's easy being an expert on it with the benefit of hindsight.
I think that was the intention of Kilmacud, to run down the clock by using the subs as a time wasting mechanism. It's just one reason why the stop clock is badly needed so that managers can't simply use substitutes with the intention of eating into the time left. Then additional time at the end of matches becomes irrelevant since the clock is counting downwards not upwards.
Stopping the 45 till the subbed players left the pitch would be the 100% by the Rule thing to do. And add on the requisite amount of time too.
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 05:05:42 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 03:34:58 PM
Anyways, lets see how KC approach this when given their options by Croke, we need to take away the ambiguity of the rules, they are so open to 'abuse' they ain't clear cut and the process of appeals seems flawed also.
Westbound, KC didn't send on 16 or 17 players they started each half with 15 and made subs during that time, the process of games being restarted after a sub was made wasn't adhered to, that wasn't KC's fault, we are talking about 30 seconds or so, there was a mistake, no doubt unwittingly by some official and this is what we have.
KC management also made a mistake in ensuring that the FF didn't leave the pitch. You can't blame everything on the officials.
By the rules what did KC do wrong? Btw I'm blaming the timing the occasion the hype of those last 30 seconds, I've managed our seniors in All Ireland semi and club final at Croke, it's a hazy crazy period when your team is in the melting pot like my semi final was!
Also you really need to lie down and rest your head! You've literally lost the run of yourself lately ;D
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 07:06:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 05:05:42 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 03:34:58 PM
Anyways, lets see how KC approach this when given their options by Croke, we need to take away the ambiguity of the rules, they are so open to 'abuse' they ain't clear cut and the process of appeals seems flawed also.
Westbound, KC didn't send on 16 or 17 players they started each half with 15 and made subs during that time, the process of games being restarted after a sub was made wasn't adhered to, that wasn't KC's fault, we are talking about 30 seconds or so, there was a mistake, no doubt unwittingly by some official and this is what we have.
KC management also made a mistake in ensuring that the FF didn't leave the pitch. You can't blame everything on the officials.
By the rules what did KC do wrong? Btw I'm blaming the timing the occasion the hype of those last 30 seconds, I've managed our seniors in All Ireland semi and club final at Croke, it's a hazy crazy period when your team is in the melting pot like my semi final was!
Also you really need to lie down and rest your head! You've literally lost the run of yourself lately ;D
#Projection
KC had 16 players on the pitch during a key play. The match will probably be replayed.
Something was definitely wrong . Mullin is probably a great bunch of lads but what was he doing on the goal line ?
Quote from: Sportacus on January 25, 2023, 06:55:54 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 25, 2023, 06:34:34 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on January 25, 2023, 05:47:33 PM
Has anyone questioned what the many officials was at to allow the game re-start with the too many Kilmacud Crokes players on the field? Those officials won't or shouldn't be getting another All-Ireland final anytime soon.
It can and does happen. It was very chaotic at the time and the onus (rightly or wrongly) is on the teams to get their subs off.
But for what happened afterwards, being informed of the error and just ignoring it and blowing up the game, for experienced officials in a game of such magnitude, it most definitely should be a huge blot on the copy book.
But then again if the ref blows his whistle and stops the quick forty-five because a substitution is still in progress there'd be a crying session as well. They can't win sometimes. It's easy being an expert on it with the benefit of hindsight.
I don't know where this quick 45 is coming from. Some people trying to muddy the waters. There was 70 seconds between 45 being awarded and taken, loads of time for KC to have their subs in order so they are not innocent in the chaos that ensued. Had the 45 been stopped or retaken there would absolutely be no issue.
The issue is the 45 being allowed to stand with 16 on the field. Had Glenn scored a winning goal there would have been a shitstorm. They didn't so we have the different shitstorm we currently have.
So 45 absolutely should have been retaken and I'd even argue there should have been an additional play afterwards from the kickout if it resulted in a quick score or wide as the case was.
Quote from: lenny on January 25, 2023, 06:39:06 PM
The more this goes on the more I think KC will be awarded the title with no sanction at all. They did everything by the book. They sent the subs to the sideline to go on and it was the fault of the officials who didn't ensure 2 players left the field first. The ref seems to have been aware that the players hadn't left the field but allowed Glen the quick 45 and they almost got a goal from it. Immediately after the 45 the ref ensured the player went off. This rule is intended for teams who try to sneak players on without going through the correct procedures.
It doesn't matter whether it's the officials fault or KC's fault, the main thing is a rule was broken, that's what determines a rematch not who's fault it was.
I wonder will this impact attendance levels at the Kilmacud Crokes Sevens later in the summer.
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 07:48:32 PM
I wonder will this impact attendance levels at the Kilmacud Crokes Sevens later in the summer.
Won't it be the Kilmacrud Crokes Eights now?
https://mobile.twitter.com/rtegaa/status/1618324872882446378?s=46&t=EMp8XXu6PN4FPRiZDBaHvw (https://mobile.twitter.com/rtegaa/status/1618324872882446378?s=46&t=EMp8XXu6PN4FPRiZDBaHvw)
Quote from: RedHand88 on January 25, 2023, 07:50:10 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 07:48:32 PM
I wonder will this impact attendance levels at the Kilmacud Crokes Sevens later in the summer.
Won't it be the Kilmacrud Crokes Eights now?
.
For Kilmacaud. 7's for everyone else
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 07:48:32 PM
I wonder will this impact attendance levels at the Kilmacud Crokes Sevens later in the summer.
Certainly impacted your posts!
Quote from: RedHand88 on January 25, 2023, 07:50:58 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/rtegaa/status/1618324872882446378?s=46&t=EMp8XXu6PN4FPRiZDBaHvw (https://mobile.twitter.com/rtegaa/status/1618324872882446378?s=46&t=EMp8XXu6PN4FPRiZDBaHvw)
Marty Morrissey anseo i lar an ghleanna
Quote from: RedHand88 on January 25, 2023, 07:50:10 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 07:48:32 PM
I wonder will this impact attendance levels at the Kilmacud Crokes Sevens later in the summer.
Won't it be the Kilmacrud Crokes Eights now?
Or the Kilmacud Jokes
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 07:06:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 05:05:42 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 03:34:58 PM
Anyways, lets see how KC approach this when given their options by Croke, we need to take away the ambiguity of the rules, they are so open to 'abuse' they ain't clear cut and the process of appeals seems flawed also.
Westbound, KC didn't send on 16 or 17 players they started each half with 15 and made subs during that time, the process of games being restarted after a sub was made wasn't adhered to, that wasn't KC's fault, we are talking about 30 seconds or so, there was a mistake, no doubt unwittingly by some official and this is what we have.
KC management also made a mistake in ensuring that the FF didn't leave the pitch. You can't blame everything on the officials.
By the rules what did KC do wrong? Btw I'm blaming the timing the occasion the hype of those last 30 seconds, I've managed our seniors in All Ireland semi and club final at Croke, it's a hazy crazy period when your team is in the melting pot like my semi final was!
Also you really need to lie down and rest your head! You've literally lost the run of yourself lately ;D
I don't know why you find this so difficult to understand
They had too many players on the bloody field. The rules say 15, they had 16
Yer bleatin on about stupid procedures and slips to feckin fourth officials, and claptrap about 'hazy times'
None of that matters one shite
They broke one of the core rules of the game at an absolutely critical time of the game... in all All Ireland Final
As they say in the courtroom dramas
Those are the facts, and they are undisputed
Quote from: lenny on January 25, 2023, 06:39:06 PM
The more this goes on the more I think KC will be awarded the title with no sanction at all. They did everything by the book. They sent the subs to the sideline to go on and it was the fault of the officials who didn't ensure 2 players left the field first. The ref seems to have been aware that the players hadn't left the field but allowed Glen the quick 45 and they almost got a goal from it. Immediately after the 45 the ref ensured the player went off. This rule is intended for teams who try to sneak players on without going through the correct procedures.
Clutching... badly
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 09:52:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 07:06:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 05:05:42 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 03:34:58 PM
Anyways, lets see how KC approach this when given their options by Croke, we need to take away the ambiguity of the rules, they are so open to 'abuse' they ain't clear cut and the process of appeals seems flawed also.
Westbound, KC didn't send on 16 or 17 players they started each half with 15 and made subs during that time, the process of games being restarted after a sub was made wasn't adhered to, that wasn't KC's fault, we are talking about 30 seconds or so, there was a mistake, no doubt unwittingly by some official and this is what we have.
KC management also made a mistake in ensuring that the FF didn't leave the pitch. You can't blame everything on the officials.
By the rules what did KC do wrong? Btw I'm blaming the timing the occasion the hype of those last 30 seconds, I've managed our seniors in All Ireland semi and club final at Croke, it's a hazy crazy period when your team is in the melting pot like my semi final was!
Also you really need to lie down and rest your head! You've literally lost the run of yourself lately ;D
I don't know why you find this so difficult to understand
They had too many players on the bloody field. The rules say 15, they had 16
Yer bleatin on about stupid procedures and slips to feckin fourth officials, and claptrap about 'hazy times'
None of that matters one shite
They broke one of the core rules of the game at an absolutely critical time of the game... in all All Ireland Final
As they say in the courtroom dramas
Those are the facts, and they are undisputed
What rule did KC break? The ref didn't stop play to ensure the player left the pitch! There is no rule to say KC have to make sure their player left when sub'd, if there is put it up!
They notified all that needed to be notified, the player didn't come off until the ref told him when he realised the player was still on.
I suppose you think they did it on purpose? What I'm sure of is a rule was broken in allowing an extra player on the pitch by the officials without taking the other one off! KC or any team can't put a player on without being allowed by the 4th official who would have collected the slips and informed the ref.
The onus is always with the player and the club as you can't have refs at every level in every county managing subs to that extent.
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2023, 06:38:34 PM
Former GAA President Nicky Brennan on OTB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh08-edCubM&t=3450s
Why are you always posting that OTB rubbish. Are you a part of them?
Ah Christ of almighty
It's like talking to a door. A stupid door
They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field
How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation
And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all
But they were very careless
Quote from: WT4E on January 25, 2023, 10:13:16 PM
The onus is always with the player and the club as you can't have refs at every level in every county managing subs to that extent.
You're making that up, referee restarts the game after the substitute has left the pitch, it's a standard process up and down the country, in this occasion it wasn't followed.
If the onus is not on the ref and we allow the clubs to regulate that then you'd see a lot worse this season.
Reffing must be bad in Antrim if your the standard! Your old dislike of anything Derry badly rolling through here.
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:16:48 PM
Ah Christ of almighty
It's like talking to a door. A stupid door
They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field
How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation
And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all
But they were very careless
So you haven't found the rule?
I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.
You can bleat all you want
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 25, 2023, 10:26:34 PM
Reffing must be bad in Antrim if your the standard! Your old dislike of anything Derry badly rolling through here.
I'm behind Glen getting a replay, I never said anything different. Judging my refereeing is fine, your criticism of it means nothing.
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:16:48 PM
Ah Christ of almighty
It's like talking to a door. A stupid door
They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field
How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation
And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all
But they were very careless
I'm not sure I agree with that. Does the doctorine of actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea not apply here. That is to say an act alone does not make a man guilty unless his mind be also guilty.
I think what has to happen is a proper investigation needs to take place. I potentially have a lot of sympathy for all involved but I think the CCCC need as far as possible to conclude exactly what happened here before the appropriate punishment if any can be levied.
That may be difficult to do and it may not depending on the evidence available but there are lots of potential ways this could have arisen. For example and I want to be clear these are hypothetical examples.
The CCCC might have evidence that KC management acted deliberately and chanced their arm in the hope it wouldn't be noticed. In such case a replay is likely the minimum sanction.
Instead they might conclude the KC management did no such thing but the players involved knowing they had been substituted took it upon themselves in which case I think again a replay is the likely minimum sanction.
The CCCC might conclude it was all a big mistake and the player wasn't aware he had been substituted in which case I have considerable sympathy for KC and the players involve and feel that even a fine would be harsh.
Of course the CCCC might reach different conclusions entirely but I think they need to hold an investigation and we need to know the outcome of it first before we can really establish what the best way forward is.
I will also reiterate that this farce once again shows to me the game is now too big, too fast, too important and too professional for one ameatur official or set of officials. I have sympathy for them in the circumstances
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:28:11 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:16:48 PM
Ah Christ of almighty
It's like talking to a door. A stupid door
They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field
How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation
And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all
But they were very careless
So you haven't found the rule?
I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.
You can bleat all you want
You're making a fool of yourself here
They broke Rule 2.1
I paraphrased for you, but evidently I need to spell it out
Should the first order of business for the incoming player not be to tell the guy he's replacing that he's off.
Someone obviously told Mannion he was being replaced because you can see him react to the news (looked surprised)
While it may have been unintentional Dublin teams have form when it comes to this type of shenanigans.
Costello's against Mayo, throwing 3 keepers tees away (and David Clark sending the resultant kick out over the sideline)
Jason Sherlock's constant "incursions" as Major Foirne we're so outrageous, they actually abolished the role
Let's remove all doubt and replay the game
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:49:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:28:11 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:16:48 PM
Ah Christ of almighty
It's like talking to a door. A stupid door
They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field
How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation
And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all
But they were very careless
So you haven't found the rule?
I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.
You can bleat all you want
You're making a fool of yourself here
They broke Rule 2.1
I paraphrased for you, but evidently I need to spell it out
Aye dead on,
1.7 SUBSTITUTION ZONE.
An area of the sideline, extending 5m. on either side of the centre-line, shall be marked as the Substitution Zone, and all the players coming off/going on to the field of play in acts of substitution/temporary substitution shall go through this point,
when given permission by the Referee.
This didn't happen
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:58:30 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:49:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:28:11 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:16:48 PM
Ah Christ of almighty
It's like talking to a door. A stupid door
They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field
How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation
And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all
But they were very careless
So you haven't found the rule?
I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.
You can bleat all you want
You're making a fool of yourself here
They broke Rule 2.1
I paraphrased for you, but evidently I need to spell it out
Aye dead on,
1.7 SUBSTITUTION ZONE.
An area of the sideline, extending 5m. on either side of the centre-line, shall be marked as the Substitution Zone, and all the players coming off/going on to the field of play in acts of substitution/temporary substitution shall go through this point, when given permission by the Referee.
This didn't happen
And?
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 11:05:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:58:30 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:49:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:28:11 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:16:48 PM
Ah Christ of almighty
It's like talking to a door. A stupid door
They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field
How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation
And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all
But they were very careless
So you haven't found the rule?
I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.
You can bleat all you want
You're making a fool of yourself here
They broke Rule 2.1
I paraphrased for you, but evidently I need to spell it out
Aye dead on,
1.7 SUBSTITUTION ZONE.
An area of the sideline, extending 5m. on either side of the centre-line, shall be marked as the Substitution Zone, and all the players coming off/going on to the field of play in acts of substitution/temporary substitution shall go through this point, when given permission by the Referee.
This didn't happen
And?
I've looked at your rule 2-1 and states a team shall consist of 15 players...
It doesn't say the onus is on the team to ensure when making a substitution that he has to come off, the rule above states (I've highlighted for you) when given permission by the ref, so the onus is with the officials.
I haven't read any of this thread, so sorry if it has been mentioned. If Crokes were 12+ points up at the time, what would be the honest consensus on here?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 11:12:09 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 11:05:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:58:30 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:49:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:28:11 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:16:48 PM
Ah Christ of almighty
It's like talking to a door. A stupid door
They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field
How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation
And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all
But they were very careless
So you haven't found the rule?
I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.
You can bleat all you want
You're making a fool of yourself here
They broke Rule 2.1
I paraphrased for you, but evidently I need to spell it out
Aye dead on,
1.7 SUBSTITUTION ZONE.
An area of the sideline, extending 5m. on either side of the centre-line, shall be marked as the Substitution Zone, and all the players coming off/going on to the field of play in acts of substitution/temporary substitution shall go through this point, when given permission by the Referee.
This didn't happen
And?
I've looked at your rule 2-1 and states a team shall consist of 15 players...
It doesn't say the onus is on the team to ensure when making a substitution that he has to come off, the rule above states (I've highlighted for you) when given permission by the ref, so the onus is with the officials.
And?
Is there a point coming?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 11:12:09 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 11:05:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:58:30 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:49:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:28:11 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:16:48 PM
Ah Christ of almighty
It's like talking to a door. A stupid door
They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field
How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation
And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all
But they were very careless
So you haven't found the rule?
I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.
You can bleat all you want
You're making a fool of yourself here
They broke Rule 2.1
I paraphrased for you, but evidently I need to spell it out
Aye dead on,
1.7 SUBSTITUTION ZONE.
An area of the sideline, extending 5m. on either side of the centre-line, shall be marked as the Substitution Zone, and all the players coming off/going on to the field of play in acts of substitution/temporary substitution shall go through this point, when given permission by the Referee.
This didn't happen
And?
I've looked at your rule 2-1 and states a team shall consist of 15 players...
It doesn't say the onus is on the team to ensure when making a substitution that he has to come off, the rule above states (I've highlighted for you) when given permission by the ref, so the onus is with the officials.
Don't agree with your interpretation.
If the onus was not on the team, why would there be a provision for punishing a team and team only when rule broken. If referee is fully responsible rule would be obsolete.
Regarding the highlighted bit, substitution process cannot begin until referee gives permission i.e halts play and signals to line. Nothing in that to suggest referee must manage everything or hold hands with he players through this (self managed) zone. I guess there's a certain level of assumption here that players and management know the rules and are responsible adults.
But sure, grey area now. Going forward rule will likely have to be dumbed down to make it fool proof.
Quote from: ONeill on January 25, 2023, 11:18:19 PM
I haven't read any of this thread, so sorry if it has been mentioned. If Crokes were 12+ points up at the time, what would be the honest consensus on here?
I doubt anyone would care. If Glenn objected and looked for replay they'd be the laughing stock. I'd imagine GAA would have to go through the process and issue KC minimum fine.
Quote from: Hound on January 25, 2023, 08:54:27 AM
Quote from: whitey on January 25, 2023, 12:08:32 AM
Quote from: fearbrags on January 24, 2023, 11:21:52 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 24, 2023, 11:12:12 PM
Quote from: fearbrags on January 24, 2023, 11:05:35 PM
In Fairness if it was a Tyrone team in place of Dubs, we would already have decided that they did it on purpose and a replay would already be ordered a or the game would be awarded to the opposition ;)
But they definitely would have done it on purpose!
It would have made the decision easier I guess, ;) but the Dubs are no angels , One all Ireland finished the Dubs one point ahead Mayo , Mayo Goalkeeper trying to kick the ball out and four sets of players grappling on the ground , No remarks past ""they were all at it "" 8)
I believe the keepers tee was also thrown into the Hill and the spare ball behind the goal was booted away for good measure
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-20470478.html
Comment at the time was that the ref could have issued 4 Black Cards to the Dubs, but of course he bottled it
(That might have been another game though)
Mad that so many swallow the lies fed by the Mayo and the media!
There was enormous whinging and lies by Mayo and the media over this incident (2017 final). Maybe to deflect they'd bottled it, or to avoid Lee Keegan getting a ban for the most blatant piece of cheating even seen in an All Ireland final!
Rock had a last gasp free to win the match after the majestic Connolly was fouled for the umpteenth time. Ciaran Kilkenny was to pick up Keegan for the resulting kickout so had his eyes on Keegan when the threw the GPS at Rock (who didn't flinch and calmly slotted over the winning point) so Kilkenny went for Keegan and wrestled him to the ground. That was the only Dublin player who pulled an opposing player on the ground. Despite there being video proof of this (see 1.42.15 of this video), the outright lie that 4 or 5 Dublin players had wrestled opponents to the ground is still is taken as fact and often referred to in analysis (some even praise the Dubs for it as "doing all it takes to win a game" - morons, as the only impact it had was for the Dubs to fack thne kickout with a man less!).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYBFoI-fznE
Costello did throw the kicking tee. But the ref dealt with those two incidents appropriately, black for Kilkenny, yellow for Costello.
So it actually couldn't have worked out worse for the Dubs. Rock took his kick exactly on 76 minutes (there was 6 mins injury time), the initial kickout by Clarke was kicked to an area where there 3 Dubs v 2 Mayo, so Dubs were favs to win it. But the kickout had to be retaken, Dublin were thus a man down, and the ref added on another 3 minutes! (blew up at 78.55 when a Dub would have been clean through on goal). All Clarke had to do was find a Mayo man with his kickout and it's pretty certain that Mayo would have worked a scoring opportunity. But Clarke blazed it over the sideline!!
Anyway, sorry for the digression, but it's a game I love reminiscing about!
100% correct Hound. This story of 2017 is one GAA great myths. Paul Kimmage made up the story at the time. Kilkenny and Costello were disciplined in accordance with the rules.
For those that are saying the additional player didn't matter, have a look at the last seconds of the semi against Kerin's O'Rahilly's, Kerin's needed a last second goal to win (or maybe it was to equalise), high ball dropped into the box was flicked on and who was on the goal line to catch the ball and prevent the goal, only the boul Mullin.
Penalty was well outside the box.
Totally changed the game yet its lost in all this
As David said the Officials are substandard. They are amateur in a game that is in reality, professional
Quote from: ONeill on January 25, 2023, 11:18:19 PM
I haven't read any of this thread, so sorry if it has been mentioned. If Crokes were 12+ points up at the time, what would be the honest consensus on here?
If they were 12 points up they wouldn't be rushing two subs on in injury time
Quote from: ONeill on January 25, 2023, 11:18:19 PM
I haven't read any of this thread, so sorry if it has been mentioned. If Crokes were 12+ points up at the time, what would be the honest consensus on here?
Anti Dublin bias, jealousy.
Plus Crokes would probably be spoofing- 12 points ?
The KCGFC 16th man would probably be Clifford.
Quote from: PMG1 on January 26, 2023, 01:27:01 AM
For those that are saying the additional player didn't matter, have a look at the last seconds of the semi against Kerin's O'Rahilly's, Kerin's needed a last second goal to win (or maybe it was to equalise), high ball dropped into the box was flicked on and who was on the goal line to catch the ball and prevent the goal, only the boul Mullin.
So what you're saying is that in the dying minutes of the game when a "flaky" Kilmacud where under pressure to keep out a last gasp goal, they learnt from their defeat against Kilcoo and did so with 15 players in the pitch and thus would have be capable of the same again against Glen?
Think you've kind of contradicted yourself in proving they could defend last minute goal threats without the extra player.
Quote from: PMG1 on January 26, 2023, 01:27:01 AM
For those that are saying the additional player didn't matter, have a look at the last seconds of the semi against Kerin's O'Rahilly's, Kerin's needed a last second goal to win (or maybe it was to equalise), high ball dropped into the box was flicked on and who was on the goal line to catch the ball and prevent the goal, only the boul Mullin.
Interesting.
There is real possibility that the Mullin staying on and standing on the goal line was not accidental, and therefore the scrutiny and appeal is understandable .
Quote from: Mike Tyson on January 26, 2023, 08:23:54 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on January 26, 2023, 01:27:01 AM
For those that are saying the additional player didn't matter, have a look at the last seconds of the semi against Kerin's O'Rahilly's, Kerin's needed a last second goal to win (or maybe it was to equalise), high ball dropped into the box was flicked on and who was on the goal line to catch the ball and prevent the goal, only the boul Mullin.
So what you're saying is that in the dying minutes of the game when a "flaky" Kilmacud where under pressure to keep out a last gasp goal, they learnt from their defeat against Kilcoo and did so with 15 players in the pitch and thus would have be capable of the same again against Glen?
Think you've kind of contradicted yourself in proving they could defend last minute goal threats without the extra player.
But they didn't...
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 26, 2023, 08:37:22 AM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on January 26, 2023, 08:23:54 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on January 26, 2023, 01:27:01 AM
For those that are saying the additional player didn't matter, have a look at the last seconds of the semi against Kerin's O'Rahilly's, Kerin's needed a last second goal to win (or maybe it was to equalise), high ball dropped into the box was flicked on and who was on the goal line to catch the ball and prevent the goal, only the boul Mullin.
So what you're saying is that in the dying minutes of the game when a "flaky" Kilmacud where under pressure to keep out a last gasp goal, they learnt from their defeat against Kilcoo and did so with 15 players in the pitch and thus would have be capable of the same again against Glen?
Think you've kind of contradicted yourself in proving they could defend last minute goal threats without the extra player.
But they didn't...
In the semi final they did. But there appears to be references to conceding in last years final as the reason the 16th man made a material difference but the more recently evidence overlooked.
Quote from: Mike Tyson on January 26, 2023, 08:40:03 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 26, 2023, 08:37:22 AM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on January 26, 2023, 08:23:54 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on January 26, 2023, 01:27:01 AM
For those that are saying the additional player didn't matter, have a look at the last seconds of the semi against Kerin's O'Rahilly's, Kerin's needed a last second goal to win (or maybe it was to equalise), high ball dropped into the box was flicked on and who was on the goal line to catch the ball and prevent the goal, only the boul Mullin.
So what you're saying is that in the dying minutes of the game when a "flaky" Kilmacud where under pressure to keep out a last gasp goal, they learnt from their defeat against Kilcoo and did so with 15 players in the pitch and thus would have be capable of the same again against Glen?
Think you've kind of contradicted yourself in proving they could defend last minute goal threats without the extra player.
But they didn't...
In the semi final they did. But there appears to be references to conceding in last years final as the reason the 16th man made a material difference but the more recently evidence overlooked.
Bit ironic that the man who stopped the goal in the semi was the same man who should have been off in the final. Anyway it's all irrelevant tbh. I think there will have to be a replay, as unfair as it is to KC but they should have made sure Mullin came off.
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 26, 2023, 12:15:40 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 11:12:09 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 11:05:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:58:30 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:49:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:28:11 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:16:48 PM
Ah Christ of almighty
It's like talking to a door. A stupid door
They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field
How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation
And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all
But they were very careless
So you haven't found the rule?
I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.
You can bleat all you want
You're making a fool of yourself here
They broke Rule 2.1
I paraphrased for you, but evidently I need to spell it out
Aye dead on,
1.7 SUBSTITUTION ZONE.
An area of the sideline, extending 5m. on either side of the centre-line, shall be marked as the Substitution Zone, and all the players coming off/going on to the field of play in acts of substitution/temporary substitution shall go through this point, when given permission by the Referee.
This didn't happen
And?
I've looked at your rule 2-1 and states a team shall consist of 15 players...
It doesn't say the onus is on the team to ensure when making a substitution that he has to come off, the rule above states (I've highlighted for you) when given permission by the ref, so the onus is with the officials.
Don't agree with your interpretation.
If the onus was not on the team, why would there be a provision for punishing a team and team only when rule broken. If referee is fully responsible rule would be obsolete.
Regarding the highlighted bit, substitution process cannot begin until referee gives permission i.e halts play and signals to line. Nothing in that to suggest referee must manage everything or hold hands with he players through this (self managed) zone. I guess there's a certain level of assumption here that players and management know the rules and are responsible adults.
But sure, grey area now. Going forward rule will likely have to be dumbed down to make it fool proof.
You'll have been at games with actual linesmen? Ok So what basically happens, is the lines man takes the slip. informs the Ref, next break of play sub for team A... the ref blows whistle at next break, player from team A comes on and while that is happening, the linesman holds his flag up in the air till the player sub'd, comes off, Ref blows his whistle, play resumes. At no point in that process is anyone looking to the management of Team A and say thanks for being responsible adults!
Its in the rules, the rule was broken and if I was KC I'd be hammering that to CCCC and saying we did nothing wrong by the rules, we instructed the linesmen 4th official and so on..
Lets see what the CCCC say though, be interesting to see who they through under the bus for this one, the replay forfeit or fine
All the above is just my view on it, referees don't get to have any opinion on what the CCCC do in these matters, the match report is what they work off and if there is other evidence on the day they'll use it also. Too much stuff to twist and turn to suit the outcome.
When will there be a meeting? Tonight?
Quote from: 6th sam on January 26, 2023, 08:27:30 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on January 26, 2023, 01:27:01 AM
For those that are saying the additional player didn't matter, have a look at the last seconds of the semi against Kerin's O'Rahilly's, Kerin's needed a last second goal to win (or maybe it was to equalise), high ball dropped into the box was flicked on and who was on the goal line to catch the ball and prevent the goal, only the boul Mullin.
Interesting.
There is real possibility that the Mullin staying on and standing on the goal line was not accidental, and therefore the scrutiny and appeal is understandable .
Of course it's possible but I really don't think the risk of getting found out was worth the advantage- likely would have defended the play alright with 15 men if the ref had done his job and ordered a retake. The fact that this didn't happen and that there is a chance Glen could have scored means a replay is needed imo.
Think what above shows is that it is not impossible to have a lead lost in the final throws. I didn't watch a lot of the club championship this year but from the few games I did see Cargin dropped a ball into the box for a last gasp goal in the Ulster Quarter final. So any chat about the extra man being no advantage and game lost anyway is incorrect.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 08:57:14 AM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 26, 2023, 12:15:40 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 11:12:09 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 11:05:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:58:30 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:49:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:28:11 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:16:48 PM
Ah Christ of almighty
It's like talking to a door. A stupid door
They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field
How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation
And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all
But they were very careless
So you haven't found the rule?
I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.
You can bleat all you want
You're making a fool of yourself here
They broke Rule 2.1
I paraphrased for you, but evidently I need to spell it out
Aye dead on,
1.7 SUBSTITUTION ZONE.
An area of the sideline, extending 5m. on either side of the centre-line, shall be marked as the Substitution Zone, and all the players coming off/going on to the field of play in acts of substitution/temporary substitution shall go through this point, when given permission by the Referee.
This didn't happen
And?
I've looked at your rule 2-1 and states a team shall consist of 15 players...
It doesn't say the onus is on the team to ensure when making a substitution that he has to come off, the rule above states (I've highlighted for you) when given permission by the ref, so the onus is with the officials.
Don't agree with your interpretation.
If the onus was not on the team, why would there be a provision for punishing a team and team only when rule broken. If referee is fully responsible rule would be obsolete.
Regarding the highlighted bit, substitution process cannot begin until referee gives permission i.e halts play and signals to line. Nothing in that to suggest referee must manage everything or hold hands with he players through this (self managed) zone. I guess there's a certain level of assumption here that players and management know the rules and are responsible adults.
But sure, grey area now. Going forward rule will likely have to be dumbed down to make it fool proof.
You'll have been at games with actual linesmen? Ok So what basically happens, is the lines man takes the slip. informs the Ref, next break of play sub for team A... the ref blows whistle at next break, player from team A comes on and while that is happening, the linesman holds his flag up in the air till the player sub'd, comes off, Ref blows his whistle, play resumes. At no point in that process is anyone looking to the management of Team A and say thanks for being responsible adults!
Its in the rules, the rule was broken and if I was KC I'd be hammering that to CCCC and saying we did nothing wrong by the rules, we instructed the linesmen 4th official and so on..
Lets see what the CCCC say though, be interesting to see who they through under the bus for this one, the replay forfeit or fine
All the above is just my view on it, referees don't get to have any opinion on what the CCCC do in these matters, the match report is what they work off and if there is other evidence on the day they'll use it also. Too much stuff to twist and turn to suit the outcome.
When will there be a meeting? Tonight?
Finally, you seem to have got there.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 08:57:14 AM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 26, 2023, 12:15:40 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 11:12:09 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 11:05:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:58:30 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:49:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:28:11 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:16:48 PM
Ah Christ of almighty
It's like talking to a door. A stupid door
They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field
How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation
And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all
But they were very careless
So you haven't found the rule?
I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.
You can bleat all you want
You're making a fool of yourself here
They broke Rule 2.1
I paraphrased for you, but evidently I need to spell it out
Aye dead on,
1.7 SUBSTITUTION ZONE.
An area of the sideline, extending 5m. on either side of the centre-line, shall be marked as the Substitution Zone, and all the players coming off/going on to the field of play in acts of substitution/temporary substitution shall go through this point, when given permission by the Referee.
This didn't happen
And?
I've looked at your rule 2-1 and states a team shall consist of 15 players...
It doesn't say the onus is on the team to ensure when making a substitution that he has to come off, the rule above states (I've highlighted for you) when given permission by the ref, so the onus is with the officials.
Don't agree with your interpretation.
If the onus was not on the team, why would there be a provision for punishing a team and team only when rule broken. If referee is fully responsible rule would be obsolete.
Regarding the highlighted bit, substitution process cannot begin until referee gives permission i.e halts play and signals to line. Nothing in that to suggest referee must manage everything or hold hands with he players through this (self managed) zone. I guess there's a certain level of assumption here that players and management know the rules and are responsible adults.
But sure, grey area now. Going forward rule will likely have to be dumbed down to make it fool proof.
You'll have been at games with actual linesmen? Ok So what basically happens, is the lines man takes the slip. informs the Ref, next break of play sub for team A... the ref blows whistle at next break, player from team A comes on and while that is happening, the linesman holds his flag up in the air till the player sub'd, comes off, Ref blows his whistle, play resumes. At no point in that process is anyone looking to the management of Team A and say thanks for being responsible adults!
Its in the rules, the rule was broken and if I was KC I'd be hammering that to CCCC and saying we did nothing wrong by the rules, we instructed the linesmen 4th official and so on..
Lets see what the CCCC say though, be interesting to see who they through under the bus for this one, the replay forfeit or fine
All the above is just my view on it, referees don't get to have any opinion on what the CCCC do in these matters, the match report is what they work off and if there is other evidence on the day they'll use it also. Too much stuff to twist and turn to suit the outcome.
When will there be a meeting? Tonight?
KC have until 11am Saturday morning to respond.
Quote from: Franko on January 26, 2023, 09:01:18 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 08:57:14 AM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 26, 2023, 12:15:40 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 11:12:09 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 11:05:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:58:30 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:49:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:28:11 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:16:48 PM
Ah Christ of almighty
It's like talking to a door. A stupid door
They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field
How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation
And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all
But they were very careless
So you haven't found the rule?
I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.
You can bleat all you want
You're making a fool of yourself here
They broke Rule 2.1
I paraphrased for you, but evidently I need to spell it out
Aye dead on,
1.7 SUBSTITUTION ZONE.
An area of the sideline, extending 5m. on either side of the centre-line, shall be marked as the Substitution Zone, and all the players coming off/going on to the field of play in acts of substitution/temporary substitution shall go through this point, when given permission by the Referee.
This didn't happen
And?
I've looked at your rule 2-1 and states a team shall consist of 15 players...
It doesn't say the onus is on the team to ensure when making a substitution that he has to come off, the rule above states (I've highlighted for you) when given permission by the ref, so the onus is with the officials.
Don't agree with your interpretation.
If the onus was not on the team, why would there be a provision for punishing a team and team only when rule broken. If referee is fully responsible rule would be obsolete.
Regarding the highlighted bit, substitution process cannot begin until referee gives permission i.e halts play and signals to line. Nothing in that to suggest referee must manage everything or hold hands with he players through this (self managed) zone. I guess there's a certain level of assumption here that players and management know the rules and are responsible adults.
But sure, grey area now. Going forward rule will likely have to be dumbed down to make it fool proof.
You'll have been at games with actual linesmen? Ok So what basically happens, is the lines man takes the slip. informs the Ref, next break of play sub for team A... the ref blows whistle at next break, player from team A comes on and while that is happening, the linesman holds his flag up in the air till the player sub'd, comes off, Ref blows his whistle, play resumes. At no point in that process is anyone looking to the management of Team A and say thanks for being responsible adults!
Its in the rules, the rule was broken and if I was KC I'd be hammering that to CCCC and saying we did nothing wrong by the rules, we instructed the linesmen 4th official and so on..
Lets see what the CCCC say though, be interesting to see who they through under the bus for this one, the replay forfeit or fine
All the above is just my view on it, referees don't get to have any opinion on what the CCCC do in these matters, the match report is what they work off and if there is other evidence on the day they'll use it also. Too much stuff to twist and turn to suit the outcome.
When will there be a meeting? Tonight?
Finally, you seem to have got there.
I've consistently said the sub rule was broken, I've backed a appeal from the start. Its who broke what rule? The ref, in my opinion started the game without ensuring the player left the field, that was the only mistake here. KC will argue they did everything right that was asked of them. Like I said, be interesting to see how this is worded up when finally done.
See you can post without throwing abuse ;)
Quote from: Farrandeelin on January 26, 2023, 09:03:58 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 08:57:14 AM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 26, 2023, 12:15:40 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 11:12:09 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 11:05:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:58:30 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:49:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:28:11 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:16:48 PM
Ah Christ of almighty
It's like talking to a door. A stupid door
They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field
How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation
And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all
But they were very careless
So you haven't found the rule?
I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.
You can bleat all you want
You're making a fool of yourself here
They broke Rule 2.1
I paraphrased for you, but evidently I need to spell it out
Aye dead on,
1.7 SUBSTITUTION ZONE.
An area of the sideline, extending 5m. on either side of the centre-line, shall be marked as the Substitution Zone, and all the players coming off/going on to the field of play in acts of substitution/temporary substitution shall go through this point, when given permission by the Referee.
This didn't happen
And?
I've looked at your rule 2-1 and states a team shall consist of 15 players...
It doesn't say the onus is on the team to ensure when making a substitution that he has to come off, the rule above states (I've highlighted for you) when given permission by the ref, so the onus is with the officials.
Don't agree with your interpretation.
If the onus was not on the team, why would there be a provision for punishing a team and team only when rule broken. If referee is fully responsible rule would be obsolete.
Regarding the highlighted bit, substitution process cannot begin until referee gives permission i.e halts play and signals to line. Nothing in that to suggest referee must manage everything or hold hands with he players through this (self managed) zone. I guess there's a certain level of assumption here that players and management know the rules and are responsible adults.
But sure, grey area now. Going forward rule will likely have to be dumbed down to make it fool proof.
You'll have been at games with actual linesmen? Ok So what basically happens, is the lines man takes the slip. informs the Ref, next break of play sub for team A... the ref blows whistle at next break, player from team A comes on and while that is happening, the linesman holds his flag up in the air till the player sub'd, comes off, Ref blows his whistle, play resumes. At no point in that process is anyone looking to the management of Team A and say thanks for being responsible adults!
Its in the rules, the rule was broken and if I was KC I'd be hammering that to CCCC and saying we did nothing wrong by the rules, we instructed the linesmen 4th official and so on..
Lets see what the CCCC say though, be interesting to see who they through under the bus for this one, the replay forfeit or fine
All the above is just my view on it, referees don't get to have any opinion on what the CCCC do in these matters, the match report is what they work off and if there is other evidence on the day they'll use it also. Too much stuff to twist and turn to suit the outcome.
When will there be a meeting? Tonight?
KC have until 11am Saturday morning to respond.
What are they responding to?
It's a well established fact they'd 16 active players on the field when the last 45 was taken, they can hardly say they didn't.
So have Croke gave KC a ruling that they have to respond to?
Doesn't HQ have to send the appeal to Kilmacud and give them 3 days for any response they wish to submit.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 09:09:02 AM
Quote from: Franko on January 26, 2023, 09:01:18 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 08:57:14 AM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 26, 2023, 12:15:40 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 11:12:09 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 11:05:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:58:30 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:49:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:28:11 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:16:48 PM
Ah Christ of almighty
It's like talking to a door. A stupid door
They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field
How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation
And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all
But they were very careless
So you haven't found the rule?
I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.
You can bleat all you want
You're making a fool of yourself here
They broke Rule 2.1
I paraphrased for you, but evidently I need to spell it out
Aye dead on,
1.7 SUBSTITUTION ZONE.
An area of the sideline, extending 5m. on either side of the centre-line, shall be marked as the Substitution Zone, and all the players coming off/going on to the field of play in acts of substitution/temporary substitution shall go through this point, when given permission by the Referee.
This didn't happen
And?
I've looked at your rule 2-1 and states a team shall consist of 15 players...
It doesn't say the onus is on the team to ensure when making a substitution that he has to come off, the rule above states (I've highlighted for you) when given permission by the ref, so the onus is with the officials.
Don't agree with your interpretation.
If the onus was not on the team, why would there be a provision for punishing a team and team only when rule broken. If referee is fully responsible rule would be obsolete.
Regarding the highlighted bit, substitution process cannot begin until referee gives permission i.e halts play and signals to line. Nothing in that to suggest referee must manage everything or hold hands with he players through this (self managed) zone. I guess there's a certain level of assumption here that players and management know the rules and are responsible adults.
But sure, grey area now. Going forward rule will likely have to be dumbed down to make it fool proof.
You'll have been at games with actual linesmen? Ok So what basically happens, is the lines man takes the slip. informs the Ref, next break of play sub for team A... the ref blows whistle at next break, player from team A comes on and while that is happening, the linesman holds his flag up in the air till the player sub'd, comes off, Ref blows his whistle, play resumes. At no point in that process is anyone looking to the management of Team A and say thanks for being responsible adults!
Its in the rules, the rule was broken and if I was KC I'd be hammering that to CCCC and saying we did nothing wrong by the rules, we instructed the linesmen 4th official and so on..
Lets see what the CCCC say though, be interesting to see who they through under the bus for this one, the replay forfeit or fine
All the above is just my view on it, referees don't get to have any opinion on what the CCCC do in these matters, the match report is what they work off and if there is other evidence on the day they'll use it also. Too much stuff to twist and turn to suit the outcome.
When will there be a meeting? Tonight?
Finally, you seem to have got there.
I've consistently said the sub rule was broken, I've backed a appeal from the start. Its who broke what rule? The ref, in my opinion started the game without ensuring the player left the field, that was the only mistake here. KC will argue they did everything right that was asked of them. Like I said, be interesting to see how this is worded up when finally done.
See you can post without throwing abuse ;)
Calm down precious
Kilmacud broke the rule.
The referee doesn't field a team, Kilmacud do - and if there's too many players on the team, then it's Kilmacud who've broken the rule
What you are talking about is why/how they did it
But there's no debate about
who did it
Quote from: Rossfan on January 26, 2023, 09:19:14 AM
Doesn't HQ have to send the appeal to Kilmacud and give them 3 days for any response they wish to submit.
You'd have thought that if you're looking for KC to respond to something it would be from a ruling Croke have sent them?
Quote from: Hectic on January 26, 2023, 08:59:29 AM
Think what above shows is that it is not impossible to have a lead lost in the final throws. I didn't watch a lot of the club championship this year but from the few games I did see Cargin dropped a ball into the box for a last gasp goal in the Ulster Quarter final. So any chat about the extra man being no advantage and game lost anyway is incorrect.
of course. Happened countless times. Kerry vs Cork in the covid year jumps out, intermediate final in Armagh was decided the same way this year.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 09:09:02 AM
Quote from: Franko on January 26, 2023, 09:01:18 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 08:57:14 AM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 26, 2023, 12:15:40 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 11:12:09 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 11:05:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:58:30 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:49:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:28:11 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:16:48 PM
Ah Christ of almighty
It's like talking to a door. A stupid door
They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field
How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation
And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all
But they were very careless
So you haven't found the rule?
I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.
You can bleat all you want
You're making a fool of yourself here
They broke Rule 2.1
I paraphrased for you, but evidently I need to spell it out
Aye dead on,
1.7 SUBSTITUTION ZONE.
An area of the sideline, extending 5m. on either side of the centre-line, shall be marked as the Substitution Zone, and all the players coming off/going on to the field of play in acts of substitution/temporary substitution shall go through this point, when given permission by the Referee.
This didn't happen
And?
I've looked at your rule 2-1 and states a team shall consist of 15 players...
It doesn't say the onus is on the team to ensure when making a substitution that he has to come off, the rule above states (I've highlighted for you) when given permission by the ref, so the onus is with the officials.
Don't agree with your interpretation.
If the onus was not on the team, why would there be a provision for punishing a team and team only when rule broken. If referee is fully responsible rule would be obsolete.
Regarding the highlighted bit, substitution process cannot begin until referee gives permission i.e halts play and signals to line. Nothing in that to suggest referee must manage everything or hold hands with he players through this (self managed) zone. I guess there's a certain level of assumption here that players and management know the rules and are responsible adults.
But sure, grey area now. Going forward rule will likely have to be dumbed down to make it fool proof.
You'll have been at games with actual linesmen? Ok So what basically happens, is the lines man takes the slip. informs the Ref, next break of play sub for team A... the ref blows whistle at next break, player from team A comes on and while that is happening, the linesman holds his flag up in the air till the player sub'd, comes off, Ref blows his whistle, play resumes. At no point in that process is anyone looking to the management of Team A and say thanks for being responsible adults!
Its in the rules, the rule was broken and if I was KC I'd be hammering that to CCCC and saying we did nothing wrong by the rules, we instructed the linesmen 4th official and so on..
Lets see what the CCCC say though, be interesting to see who they through under the bus for this one, the replay forfeit or fine
All the above is just my view on it, referees don't get to have any opinion on what the CCCC do in these matters, the match report is what they work off and if there is other evidence on the day they'll use it also. Too much stuff to twist and turn to suit the outcome.
When will there be a meeting? Tonight?
Finally, you seem to have got there.
I've consistently said the sub rule was broken, I've backed a appeal from the start. Its who broke what rule? The ref, in my opinion started the game without ensuring the player left the field, that was the only mistake here. KC will argue they did everything right that was asked of them. Like I said, be interesting to see how this is worded up when finally done.
See you can post without throwing abuse ;)
I take it there isn't a rule stating who's responsibility it is to ensure the correct number of players are on the field? Will be one by next year lol
Quote from: Franko on January 26, 2023, 09:21:25 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 09:09:02 AM
Quote from: Franko on January 26, 2023, 09:01:18 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 08:57:14 AM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 26, 2023, 12:15:40 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 11:12:09 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 11:05:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:58:30 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:49:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 25, 2023, 10:28:11 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 25, 2023, 10:16:48 PM
Ah Christ of almighty
It's like talking to a door. A stupid door
They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field
How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation
And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all
But they were very careless
So you haven't found the rule?
I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.
You can bleat all you want
You're making a fool of yourself here
They broke Rule 2.1
I paraphrased for you, but evidently I need to spell it out
Aye dead on,
1.7 SUBSTITUTION ZONE.
An area of the sideline, extending 5m. on either side of the centre-line, shall be marked as the Substitution Zone, and all the players coming off/going on to the field of play in acts of substitution/temporary substitution shall go through this point, when given permission by the Referee.
This didn't happen
And?
I've looked at your rule 2-1 and states a team shall consist of 15 players...
It doesn't say the onus is on the team to ensure when making a substitution that he has to come off, the rule above states (I've highlighted for you) when given permission by the ref, so the onus is with the officials.
Don't agree with your interpretation.
If the onus was not on the team, why would there be a provision for punishing a team and team only when rule broken. If referee is fully responsible rule would be obsolete.
Regarding the highlighted bit, substitution process cannot begin until referee gives permission i.e halts play and signals to line. Nothing in that to suggest referee must manage everything or hold hands with he players through this (self managed) zone. I guess there's a certain level of assumption here that players and management know the rules and are responsible adults.
But sure, grey area now. Going forward rule will likely have to be dumbed down to make it fool proof.
You'll have been at games with actual linesmen? Ok So what basically happens, is the lines man takes the slip. informs the Ref, next break of play sub for team A... the ref blows whistle at next break, player from team A comes on and while that is happening, the linesman holds his flag up in the air till the player sub'd, comes off, Ref blows his whistle, play resumes. At no point in that process is anyone looking to the management of Team A and say thanks for being responsible adults!
Its in the rules, the rule was broken and if I was KC I'd be hammering that to CCCC and saying we did nothing wrong by the rules, we instructed the linesmen 4th official and so on..
Lets see what the CCCC say though, be interesting to see who they through under the bus for this one, the replay forfeit or fine
All the above is just my view on it, referees don't get to have any opinion on what the CCCC do in these matters, the match report is what they work off and if there is other evidence on the day they'll use it also. Too much stuff to twist and turn to suit the outcome.
When will there be a meeting? Tonight?
Finally, you seem to have got there.
I've consistently said the sub rule was broken, I've backed a appeal from the start. Its who broke what rule? The ref, in my opinion started the game without ensuring the player left the field, that was the only mistake here. KC will argue they did everything right that was asked of them. Like I said, be interesting to see how this is worded up when finally done.
See you can post without throwing abuse ;)
Calm down precious
Kilmacud broke the rule.
The referee doesn't field a team, Kilmacud do - and if there's too many players on the team, then it's Kilmacud who've broken the rule
What you are talking about is why/how they did it
But there's no debate about who did it
Well, its a case of lets see what Croke say on the matter and how that goes with KC
But I'll not bother about worrying about doing the subs this season, because if the club throws on 16 or 17 players at the end I'll carry on regardless and let the local CCC sort it out when I put in my report ;D
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/26/ciaran-murphy-the-unsettling-gap-between-the-gaa-rulebook-and-the-gaa-way/
At various stages over the last three days, both teams have been asked to judge the merits of this case not from a regulatory standpoint, but from a moral or ethical standpoint. They have had to navigate their path along the GAA Way, not the GAA Rulebook.
That was allowed to happen by extraordinarily weak GAA leadership. Yes, we have been stung multiple times in this country by the scourge of the celebrity sports administrator. And generally speaking, I'm in favour of administrators taking a back seat.
But sometimes you need a GAA President or a GAA Director-General to take the lead in a situation like this. It's not a crime to say the end of this game was mishandled – everyone can see that. There's a difference between refs being scapegoated and being held accountable.
The second the officiating team realised their mistake, the fateful 45 should have been re-taken. They were central GAA's representatives on the field. From that moment on, it was the GAA's mess to clear up. And whatever about the residual power of the GAA Way, the GAA Rulebook will now have the final say.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 09:14:57 AM
So have Croke gave KC a ruling that they have to respond to?
Having been involved in a few objections recently the process was team A objects if objection is found to be in order then team B notified of the objection with the rule that was broken stated and asked to lodge a written admission (assume to give team A a response so they could possibly drop it)and if not both teams would be granted a hearing.
are we going to end up with some farcical situation where a replay is not to September or October.
Quote from: Eire90 on January 26, 2023, 09:45:49 AM
are we going to end up with some farcical situation where a replay is not to September or October.
The split season is sacrosanct.
Quote from: seafoid on January 26, 2023, 09:28:35 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/26/ciaran-murphy-the-unsettling-gap-between-the-gaa-rulebook-and-the-gaa-way/
At various stages over the last three days, both teams have been asked to judge the merits of this case not from a regulatory standpoint, but from a moral or ethical standpoint. They have had to navigate their path along the GAA Way, not the GAA Rulebook.
That was allowed to happen by extraordinarily weak GAA leadership. Yes, we have been stung multiple times in this country by the scourge of the celebrity sports administrator. And generally speaking, I'm in favour of administrators taking a back seat.
But sometimes you need a GAA President or a GAA Director-General to take the lead in a situation like this. It's not a crime to say the end of this game was mishandled – everyone can see that. There's a difference between refs being scapegoated and being held accountable.
The second the officiating team realised their mistake, the fateful 45 should have been re-taken. They were central GAA's representatives on the field. From that moment on, it was the GAA's mess to clear up. And whatever about the residual power of the GAA Way, the GAA Rulebook will now have the final say.
Spot on.
If the 45 had been re-taken, it is likely KC would still have won and there'd be not a word about it.
As it stands, failure of officials to take action at the time have resulted in this mess.
All that can be done, is to follow the rule book. Let the process run, Glen have raised their objection and KC have time to respond. My understanding is if they don't respond or refute the Objection, then CCCC start an inquiry into Glen's objection. KC could also admit that they had 16 players on the pitch, and in this case an inquiry is not required (I think).
If an inquiry is held and it finds in favour of Glen's objection OR KC admit the fact there were 16 players, then the CCCC have to decide on a punishment, if any. Then both teams have 3 days to appeal that decision.
If KC admit that the grounds of Glen's objection are valid and no inquiry is needed, then the CCCC decide on punishment, if any. And once again, both teams have 3 days to appeal that decision.
It's all a mess but those are the procedures so it's likely to be the middle of next week before we get to any final outcome.
The issue of fault only comes into it when the CCCC are deciding on a potential punishment and those failings of officials, players, team management etc will all be mitigating factors in that decision making process. I'm not sure factors like the score or how much time is left can be considered as a mitigating factor as they don't contribute to the rule breaking.
It's well documented now what the options are if the objection is upheld, which I think it has to be given the video evidence and general acceptance of the extra players being on the pitch for the final play. Both teams are entitled to have the rules applied fairly.
In my opinion, this was probably accidental on KC's part. But that doesn't matter.
Officials could have managed it at the time and made it a non issue, but didn't, and so have let down both teams.
It would be unfair to fine KC for an error from officials, though I'd guess they'd happily take a fine over a replay - but that's a dangerous precedent to set for this type of problem.
It would be unfair on KC to reverse the result and I dont think Glen would want it reversed that way either, but I'm not sure what the circumstances are that require a reversal of the result.
I think a replay is the least worst option, it gives both teams another bite at it and preserves the integrity of the rules going forward.
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 26, 2023, 10:16:20 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 26, 2023, 09:28:35 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/26/ciaran-murphy-the-unsettling-gap-between-the-gaa-rulebook-and-the-gaa-way/
At various stages over the last three days, both teams have been asked to judge the merits of this case not from a regulatory standpoint, but from a moral or ethical standpoint. They have had to navigate their path along the GAA Way, not the GAA Rulebook.
That was allowed to happen by extraordinarily weak GAA leadership. Yes, we have been stung multiple times in this country by the scourge of the celebrity sports administrator. And generally speaking, I'm in favour of administrators taking a back seat.
But sometimes you need a GAA President or a GAA Director-General to take the lead in a situation like this. It's not a crime to say the end of this game was mishandled – everyone can see that. There's a difference between refs being scapegoated and being held accountable.
The second the officiating team realised their mistake, the fateful 45 should have been re-taken. They were central GAA's representatives on the field. From that moment on, it was the GAA's mess to clear up. And whatever about the residual power of the GAA Way, the GAA Rulebook will now have the final say.
Spot on.
If the 45 had been re-taken, it is likely KC would still have won and there'd be not a word about it.
As it stands, failure of officials to take action at the time have resulted in this mess.
All that can be done, is to follow the rule book. Let the process run, Glen have raised their objection and KC have time to respond. My understanding is if they don't respond or refute the Objection, then CCCC start an inquiry into Glen's objection. KC could also admit that they had 16 players on the pitch, and in this case an inquiry is not required (I think).
If an inquiry is held and it finds in favour of Glen's objection OR KC admit the fact there were 16 players, then the CCCC have to decide on a punishment, if any. Then both teams have 3 days to appeal that decision.
If KC admit that the grounds of Glen's objection are valid and no inquiry is needed, then the CCCC decide on punishment, if any. And once again, both teams have 3 days to appeal that decision.
It's all a mess but those are the procedures so it's likely to be the middle of next week before we get to any final outcome.
The issue of fault only comes into it when the CCCC are deciding on a potential punishment and those failings of officials, players, team management etc will all be mitigating factors in that decision making process. I'm not sure factors like the score or how much time is left can be considered as a mitigating factor as they don't contribute to the rule breaking.
It's well documented now what the options are if the objection is upheld, which I think it has to be given the video evidence and general acceptance of the extra players being on the pitch for the final play. Both teams are entitled to have the rules applied fairly.
In my opinion, this was probably accidental on KC's part. But that doesn't matter.
Officials could have managed it at the time and made it a non issue, but didn't, and so have let down both teams.
It would be unfair to fine KC for an error from officials, though I'd guess they'd happily take a fine over a replay - but that's a dangerous precedent to set for this type of problem.
It would be unfair on KC to reverse the result and I dont think Glen would want it reversed that way either, but I'm not sure what the circumstances are that require a reversal of the result.
I think a replay is the least worst option, it gives both teams another bite at it and preserves the integrity of the rules going forward.
Failing to deal with the problem at the right time was the worst option. KC went ahead and celebrated the win. The media analysed the decision for 4 days. The rule book came into question. The ref was undermined. The GAA got a lot of bad publicity.
I wonder if either of these teams are back training yet. If either of them got back into training it would give them an edge for the potential replay.
Quote from: yellowcard on January 26, 2023, 10:29:24 AM
I wonder if either of these teams are back training yet. If either of them got back into training it would give them an edge for the potential replay.
They have been hard training since June through to Sunday, I'd say they won't lose too much in 5 days
Quote from: skeog on January 26, 2023, 10:31:29 AM
Unlikely but i would say if replayed KC will be travelling out to the sticks imo.
Why not have it at Croke? it's still, at this time of the year, regardless of how the pitch is at the minute, in a better state than most other county grounds.. Better facilities..
I've not got a message from Croke yet on officiating ;D
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 10:31:14 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 26, 2023, 10:29:24 AM
I wonder if either of these teams are back training yet. If either of them got back into training it would give them an edge for the potential replay.
They have been hard training since June through to Sunday, I'd say they won't lose too much in 5 days
Thats true but I expect that it will be at least another week before any potential date for a replay can even be set. If players have begun winding down their training programmes as part of their off season they can easily lose conditioning. Ahead of a replay in a few weeks that could be vital.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 09:23:04 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 26, 2023, 09:19:14 AM
Doesn't HQ have to send the appeal to Kilmacud and give them 3 days for any response they wish to submit.
You'd have thought that if you're looking for KC to respond to something it would be from a ruling Croke have sent them?
It's like a legal thingy... you make your case, I'm asked to respond, then Judge considers and rules on the matter.
I suspect KC will get a fine for not taking their man off and the Ref mind find himself getting eased off the list.
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 26, 2023, 10:16:20 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 26, 2023, 09:28:35 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/26/ciaran-murphy-the-unsettling-gap-between-the-gaa-rulebook-and-the-gaa-way/
At various stages over the last three days, both teams have been asked to judge the merits of this case not from a regulatory standpoint, but from a moral or ethical standpoint. They have had to navigate their path along the GAA Way, not the GAA Rulebook.
That was allowed to happen by extraordinarily weak GAA leadership. Yes, we have been stung multiple times in this country by the scourge of the celebrity sports administrator. And generally speaking, I'm in favour of administrators taking a back seat.
But sometimes you need a GAA President or a GAA Director-General to take the lead in a situation like this. It's not a crime to say the end of this game was mishandled – everyone can see that. There's a difference between refs being scapegoated and being held accountable.
The second the officiating team realised their mistake, the fateful 45 should have been re-taken. They were central GAA's representatives on the field. From that moment on, it was the GAA's mess to clear up. And whatever about the residual power of the GAA Way, the GAA Rulebook will now have the final say.
Spot on.
If the 45 had been re-taken, it is likely KC would still have won and there'd be not a word about it.
As it stands, failure of officials to take action at the time have resulted in this mess.
All that can be done, is to follow the rule book. Let the process run, Glen have raised their objection and KC have time to respond. My understanding is if they don't respond or refute the Objection, then CCCC start an inquiry into Glen's objection. KC could also admit that they had 16 players on the pitch, and in this case an inquiry is not required (I think).
If an inquiry is held and it finds in favour of Glen's objection OR KC admit the fact there were 16 players, then the CCCC have to decide on a punishment, if any. Then both teams have 3 days to appeal that decision.
If KC admit that the grounds of Glen's objection are valid and no inquiry is needed, then the CCCC decide on punishment, if any. And once again, both teams have 3 days to appeal that decision.
It's all a mess but those are the procedures so it's likely to be the middle of next week before we get to any final outcome.
The issue of fault only comes into it when the CCCC are deciding on a potential punishment and those failings of officials, players, team management etc will all be mitigating factors in that decision making process. I'm not sure factors like the score or how much time is left can be considered as a mitigating factor as they don't contribute to the rule breaking.
It's well documented now what the options are if the objection is upheld, which I think it has to be given the video evidence and general acceptance of the extra players being on the pitch for the final play. Both teams are entitled to have the rules applied fairly.
In my opinion, this was probably accidental on KC's part. But that doesn't matter.
Officials could have managed it at the time and made it a non issue, but didn't, and so have let down both teams.
It would be unfair to fine KC for an error from officials, though I'd guess they'd happily take a fine over a replay - but that's a dangerous precedent to set for this type of problem.
It would be unfair on KC to reverse the result and I dont think Glen would want it reversed that way either, but I'm not sure what the circumstances are that require a reversal of the result.
I think a replay is the least worst option, it gives both teams another bite at it and preserves the integrity of the rules going forward.
There was no deliberate rule break, therefore there is no need for any sanction. We should all just accept that it was an error by the officials. Many games are won and lost by officials errors. We are opening a complete can of worms if we start allowing replays for errors by officials.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 10:34:33 AM
Quote from: skeog on January 26, 2023, 10:31:29 AM
Unlikely but i would say if replayed KC will be travelling out to the sticks imo.
Why not have it at Croke? it's still, at this time of the year, regardless of how the pitch is at the minute, in a better state than most other county grounds.. Better facilities..
I've not got a message from Croke yet on officiating ;D
Armagh is in good nick, could facilitate a weeknight game, and would be mid-way between both teams (ish).
I suppose Athletic grounds would be good, and you're closer to the pitch to see how many subs go on
Quote from: lenny on January 26, 2023, 10:36:23 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 26, 2023, 10:16:20 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 26, 2023, 09:28:35 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/26/ciaran-murphy-the-unsettling-gap-between-the-gaa-rulebook-and-the-gaa-way/
At various stages over the last three days, both teams have been asked to judge the merits of this case not from a regulatory standpoint, but from a moral or ethical standpoint. They have had to navigate their path along the GAA Way, not the GAA Rulebook.
That was allowed to happen by extraordinarily weak GAA leadership. Yes, we have been stung multiple times in this country by the scourge of the celebrity sports administrator. And generally speaking, I'm in favour of administrators taking a back seat.
But sometimes you need a GAA President or a GAA Director-General to take the lead in a situation like this. It's not a crime to say the end of this game was mishandled – everyone can see that. There's a difference between refs being scapegoated and being held accountable.
The second the officiating team realised their mistake, the fateful 45 should have been re-taken. They were central GAA's representatives on the field. From that moment on, it was the GAA's mess to clear up. And whatever about the residual power of the GAA Way, the GAA Rulebook will now have the final say.
Spot on.
If the 45 had been re-taken, it is likely KC would still have won and there'd be not a word about it.
As it stands, failure of officials to take action at the time have resulted in this mess.
All that can be done, is to follow the rule book. Let the process run, Glen have raised their objection and KC have time to respond. My understanding is if they don't respond or refute the Objection, then CCCC start an inquiry into Glen's objection. KC could also admit that they had 16 players on the pitch, and in this case an inquiry is not required (I think).
If an inquiry is held and it finds in favour of Glen's objection OR KC admit the fact there were 16 players, then the CCCC have to decide on a punishment, if any. Then both teams have 3 days to appeal that decision.
If KC admit that the grounds of Glen's objection are valid and no inquiry is needed, then the CCCC decide on punishment, if any. And once again, both teams have 3 days to appeal that decision.
It's all a mess but those are the procedures so it's likely to be the middle of next week before we get to any final outcome.
The issue of fault only comes into it when the CCCC are deciding on a potential punishment and those failings of officials, players, team management etc will all be mitigating factors in that decision making process. I'm not sure factors like the score or how much time is left can be considered as a mitigating factor as they don't contribute to the rule breaking.
It's well documented now what the options are if the objection is upheld, which I think it has to be given the video evidence and general acceptance of the extra players being on the pitch for the final play. Both teams are entitled to have the rules applied fairly.
In my opinion, this was probably accidental on KC's part. But that doesn't matter.
Officials could have managed it at the time and made it a non issue, but didn't, and so have let down both teams.
It would be unfair to fine KC for an error from officials, though I'd guess they'd happily take a fine over a replay - but that's a dangerous precedent to set for this type of problem.
It would be unfair on KC to reverse the result and I dont think Glen would want it reversed that way either, but I'm not sure what the circumstances are that require a reversal of the result.
I think a replay is the least worst option, it gives both teams another bite at it and preserves the integrity of the rules going forward.
There was no deliberate rule break, therefore there is no need for any sanction. We should all just accept that it was an error by the officials. Many games are won and lost by officials errors. We are opening a complete can of worms if we start allowing replays for errors by officials.
;D
Quote from: lenny on January 26, 2023, 10:36:23 AM
There was no deliberate rule break, therefore there is no need for any sanction. We should all just accept that it was an error by the officials. Many games are won and lost by officials errors. We are opening a complete can of worms if we start allowing replays for errors by officials.
Can't agree. This is very clearly set out in the rules, and there's multiple precedents before. This is not the same as a ref giving a soft free for a winning kick, or such, or a poor red card decision. That'll always be part and parcel. But this is clearly set out, and the 15 on the field is the very basis of the game. I would argue we open a can of worms by not allowing a replay here and letting this go.
What is the contingency if the GAA order a replay and KC tell them to go f**k themselves? (Which I think they will)
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2023, 11:00:38 AM
What is the contingency if the GAA order a replay and KC tell them to go f**k themselves? (Which I think they will)
As with a lot of things GAA, they'll probably make it up as they go along.
Quote from: lenny on January 26, 2023, 10:36:23 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 26, 2023, 10:16:20 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 26, 2023, 09:28:35 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/26/ciaran-murphy-the-unsettling-gap-between-the-gaa-rulebook-and-the-gaa-way/
At various stages over the last three days, both teams have been asked to judge the merits of this case not from a regulatory standpoint, but from a moral or ethical standpoint. They have had to navigate their path along the GAA Way, not the GAA Rulebook.
That was allowed to happen by extraordinarily weak GAA leadership. Yes, we have been stung multiple times in this country by the scourge of the celebrity sports administrator. And generally speaking, I'm in favour of administrators taking a back seat.
But sometimes you need a GAA President or a GAA Director-General to take the lead in a situation like this. It's not a crime to say the end of this game was mishandled – everyone can see that. There's a difference between refs being scapegoated and being held accountable.
The second the officiating team realised their mistake, the fateful 45 should have been re-taken. They were central GAA's representatives on the field. From that moment on, it was the GAA's mess to clear up. And whatever about the residual power of the GAA Way, the GAA Rulebook will now have the final say.
Spot on.
If the 45 had been re-taken, it is likely KC would still have won and there'd be not a word about it.
As it stands, failure of officials to take action at the time have resulted in this mess.
All that can be done, is to follow the rule book. Let the process run, Glen have raised their objection and KC have time to respond. My understanding is if they don't respond or refute the Objection, then CCCC start an inquiry into Glen's objection. KC could also admit that they had 16 players on the pitch, and in this case an inquiry is not required (I think).
If an inquiry is held and it finds in favour of Glen's objection OR KC admit the fact there were 16 players, then the CCCC have to decide on a punishment, if any. Then both teams have 3 days to appeal that decision.
If KC admit that the grounds of Glen's objection are valid and no inquiry is needed, then the CCCC decide on punishment, if any. And once again, both teams have 3 days to appeal that decision.
It's all a mess but those are the procedures so it's likely to be the middle of next week before we get to any final outcome.
The issue of fault only comes into it when the CCCC are deciding on a potential punishment and those failings of officials, players, team management etc will all be mitigating factors in that decision making process. I'm not sure factors like the score or how much time is left can be considered as a mitigating factor as they don't contribute to the rule breaking.
It's well documented now what the options are if the objection is upheld, which I think it has to be given the video evidence and general acceptance of the extra players being on the pitch for the final play. Both teams are entitled to have the rules applied fairly.
In my opinion, this was probably accidental on KC's part. But that doesn't matter.
Officials could have managed it at the time and made it a non issue, but didn't, and so have let down both teams.
It would be unfair to fine KC for an error from officials, though I'd guess they'd happily take a fine over a replay - but that's a dangerous precedent to set for this type of problem.
It would be unfair on KC to reverse the result and I dont think Glen would want it reversed that way either, but I'm not sure what the circumstances are that require a reversal of the result.
I think a replay is the least worst option, it gives both teams another bite at it and preserves the integrity of the rules going forward.
There was no deliberate rule break, therefore there is no need for any sanction. We should all just accept that it was an error by the officials. Many games are won and lost by officials errors. We are opening a complete can of worms if we start allowing replays for errors by officials.
Deliberate or not doesn't matter as for this particular rule, the word deliberate isn't included.
Black card rule stipulates "deliberate". The number of players on a pitch doesn't have any such stipulation.
The rule, as it is written, has been broken and that isn't open to interpretation.
We open a complete of worms, if the rule is not enforced.
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2023, 11:00:38 AM
What is the contingency if the GAA order a replay and KC tell them to go f**k themselves? (Which I think they will)
I would imagine, that would be the same as not fulfilling a fixture and the the opposing team would automatically be granted the win.
Glen wouldn't want that either I'd imagine.
There's also no guarantee that Glen would accept a replay either.
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2023, 11:00:38 AM
What is the contingency if the GAA order a replay and KC tell them to go f**k themselves? (Which I think they will)
I'm only guessing but I'd imagine it would be the same as any other match up and down the country where the opposition don't field. The referee will throw the ball up in the air and Glen will score to win the match. It happened earlier in the year with a ladies Ulster club match after a row about a 4G pitch and steel studs. However given the magnitude of this game I wouldn't expect that Glen would field if such an eventuality came about which leaves everything still in limbo. It's really down to how the GAA apply their own rulebook.
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2023, 11:00:38 AM
What is the contingency if the GAA order a replay and KC tell them to go f**k themselves? (Which I think they will)
Based on what ?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 10:42:00 AM
I suppose Athletic grounds would be good, and you're closer to the pitch to see how many subs go on
Páirc Esler would be exactly half way between the 2 clubs.
Without going through the GAAs prehistoric and ambiguous rule sets that count for little to be honest, the buck probably stops with the referee. It's still a game, irrelevant of the location or occasion. The line indicates a sub is being made and the referee should not restart play until he sees a player coming on and one going off. However, there is surely the added protection there in that every fella who comes on makes the replaced player aware of the switch. But without playing the blame game, it's irrelevant as to who was at fault, with the main point being the result of having an extra player which breaks the basic laws of the game.
What are the precedents by the way? I'm sure, as it's been with any GAA controversy, that there has been inconsistent actions taken to deal with incidents of similar nature. This is what leads me to think that someone could chance their arm and leave a player on, or a player could keep himself on if possible. Most will know that it's more likely that it will be punished in any way other than a replay or forfeiting of the title, as the macho nature of the GAA more than likely will prevent a club appealing results over infringements as its always seen as sour grapes etc. and most old schoolers would be of the view that you should just suck it up and take it like a man.
Quote from: Rossfan on January 26, 2023, 10:35:41 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 09:23:04 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 26, 2023, 09:19:14 AM
Doesn't HQ have to send the appeal to Kilmacud and give them 3 days for any response they wish to submit.
You'd have thought that if you're looking for KC to respond to something it would be from a ruling Croke have sent them?
It's like a legal thingy... you make your case, I'm asked to respond, then Judge considers and rules on the matter.
I suspect KC will get a fine for not taking their man off and the Ref mind find himself getting eased off the list.
Yes, and I heard Marty Morrissey saying Glen, (if they're unhappy with whatever's said by KC ) can have three more days to consider appealing. :D ::)
Quote from: nrico2006 on January 26, 2023, 11:24:11 AM
Without going through the GAAs prehistoric and ambiguous rule sets that count for little to be honest, the buck probably stops with the referee. It's still a game, irrelevant of the location or occasion. The line indicates a sub is being made and the referee should not restart play until he sees a player coming on and one going off. However, there is surely the added protection there in that every fella who comes on makes the replaced player aware of the switch. But without playing the blame game, it's irrelevant as to who was at fault, with the main point being the result of having an extra player which breaks the basic laws of the game.
What are the precedents by the way? I'm sure, as it's been with any GAA controversy, that there has been inconsistent actions taken to deal with incidents of similar nature. This is what leads me to think that someone could chance their arm and leave a player on, or a player could keep himself on if possible. Most will know that it's more likely that it will be punished in any way other than a replay or forfeiting of the title, as the macho nature of the GAA more than likely will prevent a club appealing results over infringements as its always seen as sour grapes etc. and most old schoolers would be of the view that you should just suck it up and take it like a man.
The rule is about number of players rather than who did what. 16 v 15 is not acceptable.
As David Keown said above the only way to know what happened would be to investigate the statements of KC's various players and management.
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2023, 11:00:38 AM
What is the contingency if the GAA order a replay and KC tell them to go f**k themselves? (Which I think they will)
Some interesting views but if KC say they won't turn up and Glen do it will look wild for the GAA and Glen. Just imagine how it will look. Mostly likely is Glen refuse to replay it as well, claiming a moral victory and at least it doesn't look like a massive dose of sour grapes from Glen. If Glen really want to win it this way, (which I don't think they do) then KC should put the Cup on the bus and send it up to them.
Quote from: nrico2006 on January 26, 2023, 11:24:11 AM
Without going through the GAAs prehistoric and ambiguous rule sets that count for little to be honest, the buck probably stops with the referee. It's still a game, irrelevant of the location or occasion. The line indicates a sub is being made and the referee should not restart play until he sees a player coming on and one going off. However, there is surely the added protection there in that every fella who comes on makes the replaced player aware of the switch. But without playing the blame game, it's irrelevant as to who was at fault, with the main point being the result of having an extra player which breaks the basic laws of the game.
What are the precedents by the way? I'm sure, as it's been with any GAA controversy, that there has been inconsistent actions taken to deal with incidents of similar nature. This is what leads me to think that someone could chance their arm and leave a player on, or a player could keep himself on if possible. Most will know that it's more likely that it will be punished in any way other than a replay or forfeiting of the title, as the macho nature of the GAA more than likely will prevent a club appealing results over infringements as its always seen as sour grapes etc. and most old schoolers would be of the view that you should just suck it up and take it like a man.
I've been on the sideline of many pitches during games. It is on the club who bring a player on to see that a player comes off.
But there are precedents. Armagh Laois in a league game. A Christy ring game involving Meath and another I can't recall. That's intercounty, there are far more club games around the country over the years that saw replays. So it really is set out there.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on January 26, 2023, 11:28:46 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 26, 2023, 10:35:41 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 09:23:04 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 26, 2023, 09:19:14 AM
Doesn't HQ have to send the appeal to Kilmacud and give them 3 days for any response they wish to submit.
You'd have thought that if you're looking for KC to respond to something it would be from a ruling Croke have sent them?
It's like a legal thingy... you make your case, I'm asked to respond, then Judge considers and rules on the matter.
I suspect KC will get a fine for not taking their man off and the Ref mind find himself getting eased off the list.
Yes, and I heard Marty Morrissey saying Glen, (if they're unhappy with whatever's said by KC ) can have three more days to consider appealing. :D ::)
There is a reasonable chance that most of what KC say will be bullshit. They will probably blame the ref and take no responsibility .
Quote from: Dreadnought on January 26, 2023, 11:39:02 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on January 26, 2023, 11:24:11 AM
Without going through the GAAs prehistoric and ambiguous rule sets that count for little to be honest, the buck probably stops with the referee. It's still a game, irrelevant of the location or occasion. The line indicates a sub is being made and the referee should not restart play until he sees a player coming on and one going off. However, there is surely the added protection there in that every fella who comes on makes the replaced player aware of the switch. But without playing the blame game, it's irrelevant as to who was at fault, with the main point being the result of having an extra player which breaks the basic laws of the game.
What are the precedents by the way? I'm sure, as it's been with any GAA controversy, that there has been inconsistent actions taken to deal with incidents of similar nature. This is what leads me to think that someone could chance their arm and leave a player on, or a player could keep himself on if possible. Most will know that it's more likely that it will be punished in any way other than a replay or forfeiting of the title, as the macho nature of the GAA more than likely will prevent a club appealing results over infringements as its always seen as sour grapes etc. and most old schoolers would be of the view that you should just suck it up and take it like a man.
I've been on the sideline of many pitches during games. It is on the club who bring a player on to see that a player comes off.
But there are precedents. Armagh Laois in a league game. A Christy ring game involving Meath and another I can't recall. That's intercounty, there are far more club games around the country over the years that saw replays. So it really is set out there.
Yep, definitely are. But aren't there also precedents where its happened and nothing was really done about it.
Meath Antrim christy ring. Meath got presented with the cup too. That was a case of the score was counted wrong. They still bloody won the next day :(
KC will probably come back and claim something along the lines of 'not our problem, talk to the ref'. At that point would it get bounced back to Glen or would the GAA actually make a decision? Whatever the committee decides, it could get contested and tied up in legal knots. Hopefully not!
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2023, 11:35:35 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2023, 11:00:38 AM
What is the contingency if the GAA order a replay and KC tell them to go f**k themselves? (Which I think they will)
Some interesting views but if KC say they won't turn up and Glen do it will look wild for the GAA and Glen. Just imagine how it will look. Mostly likely is Glen refuse to replay it as well, claiming a moral victory and at least it doesn't look like a massive dose of sour grapes from Glen. If Glen really want to win it this way, (which I don't think they do) then KC should put the Cup on the bus and send it up to them.
Why is this likely to happen ?
Quote from: yellowcard on January 26, 2023, 10:29:24 AM
I wonder if either of these teams are back training yet. If either of them got back into training it would give them an edge for the potential replay.
I would say they are unless KC are planning on flat out refusing to play a replay or Glen are intending on not playing. Don't think either are too likely
Too much at stake to be still on the beer.
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 26, 2023, 12:03:54 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 26, 2023, 10:29:24 AM
I wonder if either of these teams are back training yet. If either of them got back into training it would give them an edge for the potential replay.
I would say they are unless KC are planning on flat out refusing to play a replay or Glen are intending on not playing. Don't think either are too likely
Too much at stake to be still on the beer.
There is zero chance that either team will replay this game.
Quote from: lenny on January 26, 2023, 12:14:44 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 26, 2023, 12:03:54 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 26, 2023, 10:29:24 AM
I wonder if either of these teams are back training yet. If either of them got back into training it would give them an edge for the potential replay.
I would say they are unless KC are planning on flat out refusing to play a replay or Glen are intending on not playing. Don't think either are too likely
Too much at stake to be still on the beer.
There is zero chance that either team will replay this game.
Why raise an objection then?
What if replay is called and KC refuse?
Quote from: lenny on January 26, 2023, 12:14:44 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 26, 2023, 12:03:54 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 26, 2023, 10:29:24 AM
I wonder if either of these teams are back training yet. If either of them got back into training it would give them an edge for the potential replay.
I would say they are unless KC are planning on flat out refusing to play a replay or Glen are intending on not playing. Don't think either are too likely
Too much at stake to be still on the beer.
There is zero chance that either team will replay this game.
So all these posts were for nathin?!!! FFS I'll never get those hours back, at least I have a new title, stupid door ;D
Who's stopping these two teams meeting next year? there will be some drive regardless of the outcome
Ref will carry the can. Kilmacud will be fined and Glen will politely decline a reply.
Could it all end up in a we don't wany it u can have it from both teams.
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on January 26, 2023, 12:21:13 PM
Ref will carry the can. Kilmacud will be fined and Glen will politely decline a reply.
They can't impose a fine if they go for a replay or am I misunderstanding
Quote from: lenny on January 26, 2023, 12:14:44 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 26, 2023, 12:03:54 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 26, 2023, 10:29:24 AM
I wonder if either of these teams are back training yet. If either of them got back into training it would give them an edge for the potential replay.
I would say they are unless KC are planning on flat out refusing to play a replay or Glen are intending on not playing. Don't think either are too likely
Too much at stake to be still on the beer.
There is zero chance that either team will replay this game.
I agree. Glen are just making a point to say this was a f**k up.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 12:19:33 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 26, 2023, 12:14:44 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 26, 2023, 12:03:54 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 26, 2023, 10:29:24 AM
I wonder if either of these teams are back training yet. If either of them got back into training it would give them an edge for the potential replay.
I would say they are unless KC are planning on flat out refusing to play a replay or Glen are intending on not playing. Don't think either are too likely
Too much at stake to be still on the beer.
There is zero chance that either team will replay this game.
So all these posts were for nathin?!!! FFS I'll never get those hours back, at least I have a new title, stupid door ;D
Who's stopping these two teams meeting next year? there will be some drive regardless of the outcome
No one unless Kilcoo get the finger out!
Quote from: lenny on January 26, 2023, 12:14:44 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 26, 2023, 12:03:54 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 26, 2023, 10:29:24 AM
I wonder if either of these teams are back training yet. If either of them got back into training it would give them an edge for the potential replay.
I would say they are unless KC are planning on flat out refusing to play a replay or Glen are intending on not playing. Don't think either are too likely
Too much at stake to be still on the beer.
There is zero chance that either team will replay this game.
Based on what ?
The match has not been concluded
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2023, 11:35:35 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2023, 11:00:38 AM
What is the contingency if the GAA order a replay and KC tell them to go f**k themselves? (Which I think they will)
Some interesting views but if KC say they won't turn up and Glen do it will look wild for the GAA and Glen. Just imagine how it will look. Mostly likely is Glen refuse to replay it as well, claiming a moral victory and at least it doesn't look like a massive dose of sour grapes from Glen. If Glen really want to win it this way, (which I don't think they do) then KC should put the Cup on the bus and send it up to them.
Did trailer forget to switch accounts or why is he quoting himself? There was another tyrone poster fond of using sock puppet accounts recently.
Quote from: lenny on January 26, 2023, 12:14:44 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 26, 2023, 12:03:54 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 26, 2023, 10:29:24 AM
I wonder if either of these teams are back training yet. If either of them got back into training it would give them an edge for the potential replay.
I would say they are unless KC are planning on flat out refusing to play a replay or Glen are intending on not playing. Don't think either are too likely
Too much at stake to be still on the beer.
There is zero chance that either team will replay this game.
I'd be thinking along the same lines re replaying the game, just can't see it happening.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-41057357.html
I can't see this been replayed even if the GAA order one the final cud be null and void in the record books.
It be a replay, if its let go, what to stop the same happening in a senior county championship game when they know that their no repercussions. At least Clare had it in them to offer Offaly a replay all them yrs ago, when the ref not them was at fault. I think the fear here us, Glen could beat them 2nd time round which I think they would.
Quote from: CK_Redhand on January 26, 2023, 12:57:32 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2023, 11:35:35 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2023, 11:00:38 AM
What is the contingency if the GAA order a replay and KC tell them to go f**k themselves? (Which I think they will)
Some interesting views but if KC say they won't turn up and Glen do it will look wild for the GAA and Glen. Just imagine how it will look. Mostly likely is Glen refuse to replay it as well, claiming a moral victory and at least it doesn't look like a massive dose of sour grapes from Glen. If Glen really want to win it this way, (which I don't think they do) then KC should put the Cup on the bus and send it up to them.
Did trailer forget to switch accounts or why is he quoting himself? There was another tyrone poster fond of using sock puppet accounts recently.
I quoted myself.
Yeah right, just another Muppet running around under dual accounts.
I can kind of understand KC's current mindset in just saying f**k the replay and work the cup up you. It is a mess but in the cold light of day Glenn are innocent victims in this and were denied a shot at saving their AI hopes. That is undisputed so if KC want their AI, no asterisks attached, a replay is their only route.
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2023, 12:24:21 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 26, 2023, 12:14:44 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 26, 2023, 12:03:54 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 26, 2023, 10:29:24 AM
I wonder if either of these teams are back training yet. If either of them got back into training it would give them an edge for the potential replay.
I would say they are unless KC are planning on flat out refusing to play a replay or Glen are intending on not playing. Don't think either are too likely
Too much at stake to be still on the beer.
There is zero chance that either team will replay this game.
I agree. Glen are just making a point to say this was a f**k up.
It must be great to be so sure of yourself ::)
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 26, 2023, 01:45:38 PM
Yeah right, just another Muppet running around under dual accounts.
Who you calling a muppet? Catch yerself on.
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2023, 02:13:24 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 26, 2023, 01:45:38 PM
Yeah right, just another Muppet running around under dual accounts.
Who you calling a muppet? Catch yerself on.
Watch yourself Weasel, your man is the biggest slabber on this thing but you daren't say a word or you get reported.
Quote from: ClubScene13 on January 26, 2023, 02:19:18 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2023, 02:13:24 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 26, 2023, 01:45:38 PM
Yeah right, just another Muppet running around under dual accounts.
Who you calling a muppet? Catch yerself on.
Watch yourself Weasel, your man is the biggest slabber on this thing but you daren't say a word or you get reported.
49 posts...
Quote from: Cavan19 on January 26, 2023, 01:28:09 PM
I can't see this been replayed even if the GAA order one the final cud be null and void in the record books.
If a replay is decided upon by the GAA, then that will constitute an official fixture.
Should KC not play the replay, as they are "not interested", then they will be failing to fulfill an official fixture. Ramifications will flow from that (fines and suspension of the club for a period of time, I'd imagine).
The AI club title will then be awarded to Glen by way of a walkover.
By no means a moral victory for Glen but they would be recorded as All Ireland Champions for this year in the record books; if such a series of events took place.
If a replay is decided upon, KC will play it. I suspect their current stance is a effort to have their punishment demoted to a fine only.
What a way to lose it in the boardroom, there have been teams up and down the country that will have that feeling, history will show that they 'won' it but that won't be how they actually feel
I doubt Glen would be happy with a walkover
Quote from: CK_Redhand on January 26, 2023, 12:57:32 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2023, 11:35:35 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2023, 11:00:38 AM
What is the contingency if the GAA order a replay and KC tell them to go f**k themselves? (Which I think they will)
Some interesting views but if KC say they won't turn up and Glen do it will look wild for the GAA and Glen. Just imagine how it will look. Mostly likely is Glen refuse to replay it as well, claiming a moral victory and at least it doesn't look like a massive dose of sour grapes from Glen. If Glen really want to win it this way, (which I don't think they do) then KC should put the Cup on the bus and send it up to them.
Did trailer forget to switch accounts or why is he quoting himself? There was another tyrone poster fond of using sock puppet accounts recently.
I wondered the same thing
Quote from: Keyboard Warrior on January 26, 2023, 02:37:46 PM
Quote from: Cavan19 on January 26, 2023, 01:28:09 PM
I can't see this been replayed even if the GAA order one the final cud be null and void in the record books.
If a replay is decided upon by the GAA, then that will constitute an official fixture.
Should KC not play the replay, as they are "not interested", then they will be failing to fulfill an official fixture. Ramifications will flow from that (fines and suspension of the club for a period of time, I'd imagine).
The AI club title will then be awarded to Glen by way of a walkover.
By no means a moral victory for Glen but they would be recorded as All Ireland Champions for this year in the record books; if such a series of events took place.
If a replay is decided upon, KC will play it. I suspect their current stance is a effort to have their punishment demoted to a fine only.
Can see not Glen not turning up either.
A fine would be a joke. The KC win is banjaxed.
J. K. Galbraith:"The conventional wisdom"gives way not so much to new ideas as to "the massive onslaught of circumstances with which it cannot contend".
Good man Mullin. Fist pump that.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 26, 2023, 01:45:38 PM
Yeah right, just another Muppet running around under dual accounts.
Agreed, IMO, the mods have let what was once almost required reading especially on a Sunday or Monday, as there were so many genuine GAA posters, to something that had become diluted/polluted with certain folks using multiple aliases.
Shame really.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 02:40:36 PM
What a way to lose it in the boardroom, there have been teams up and down the country that will have that feeling, history will show that they 'won' it but that won't be how they actually feel
Ref conclusions cannot be questioned. How many ignored breaches of rule 6.44 have happened up and down the country, to the nearest 100 ?
Neither club should deny a reply. It's a fair opportunity for both clubs. No one can turn back time and undo what happened so an opportunity to go for it again is the fair option.
If either club declined it, they are doing the other club out of the opportunity to win the game fairly. This may be tougher on KC as they were in a winning position, but at the end of they day, they were partly to blame, whereas Glen had no blame so it balances out.
Reply the f**king game and get on with it.
Quote from: trueblue1234 on January 26, 2023, 03:46:00 PM
Neither club should deny a reply. It's a fair opportunity for both clubs. No one can turn back time and undo what happened so an opportunity to go for it again is the fair option.
If either club declined it, they are doing the other club out of the opportunity to win the game fairly. This may be tougher on KC as they were in a winning position, but at the end of they day, they were partly to blame, whereas Glen had no blame so it balances out.
Reply the f**king game and get on with it.
I'd agree with that.
I hear that Crokes have told Croke park that they will hand the trophy and title to An Glen if they will accept it.
Quote from: Hereiam on January 26, 2023, 05:09:49 PM
I hear that Crokes have told Croke park that they will hand the trophy and title to An Glen if they will accept it.
Great news, wonder will some of the Glen team be able to take it with them on the stag do next week? Could push them over the luggage weight limit.. Another handlin to sort
Quote from: Hereiam on January 26, 2023, 05:09:49 PM
I hear that Crokes have told Croke park that they will hand the trophy and title to An Glen if they will accept it.
Hmmm interesting, I wonder how the Twitter gang will take to that if it happens?
Will Glen go to Croke to accept it on the steps of the Hogan Stand?
When did everyone realise that the game result didn't stand ?
Quote from: Hereiam on January 26, 2023, 05:09:49 PM
I hear that Crokes have told Croke park that they will hand the trophy and title to An Glen if they will accept it.
Where did you hear that ???
Yeah, they spend all that money for nothing, GAA will call a replay, Glen will turn up, Crokes don't, and I then fine them as standard, for not full filling a fixture. GAA played Leinster Finals, semi at Croke Park when they could been played elsewhere in Leinster. Big clubs seem to do what they want, and the GAA hoped Glen just disappear, and continue as normal. Just like all the sending off's which occur, and men get off cause our Gareth Brooks GAA fans/high brass are counting the money and not addressing the rule book which needed addressed as far back as, 2004 after The Westmeath midfielder took out a court injunction to play against Derry.
Quote from: CK_Redhand on January 26, 2023, 12:57:32 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2023, 11:35:35 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2023, 11:00:38 AM
What is the contingency if the GAA order a replay and KC tell them to go f**k themselves? (Which I think they will)
Some interesting views but if KC say they won't turn up and Glen do it will look wild for the GAA and Glen. Just imagine how it will look. Mostly likely is Glen refuse to replay it as well, claiming a moral victory and at least it doesn't look like a massive dose of sour grapes from Glen. If Glen really want to win it this way, (which I don't think they do) then KC should put the Cup on the bus and send it up to them.
Did trailer forget to switch accounts or why is he quoting himself? There was another tyrone poster fond of using sock puppet accounts recently.
;D
It might be normal for you but to the average club player playing in Croke Park is the holy grail, you can keep all those pitches for league or semis even .. but everyone wants to play there.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 26, 2023, 06:57:57 PM
Yeah, they spend all that money for nothing, GAA will call a replay, Glen will turn up, Crokes don't, and I then fine them as standard, for not full filling a fixture. GAA played Leinster Finals, semi at Croke Park when they could been played elsewhere in Leinster. Big clubs seem to do what they want, and the GAA hoped Glen just disappear, and continue as normal. Just like all the sending off's which occur, and men get off cause our Gareth Brooks GAA fabs/high brass are counting the money and not addressing the rule book which needed addressed as far back as, 2004 after The Westmeath midfielder took out a court injunction to play against Derry.
Laois. He played the quarter against Derry subsequently. But played in the Leinster final too.
I kind of hope Crokes refuse a replay.
It'll be interesting then to see the reaction of those who've has spent the past 4 days squealing about the integrity of the game, and how KC cheated to win, and how if rule breakers aren't punished, the game is ruined, and how the top brass of GAA are a sham and a disgrace.
Will they declare such an outcome a success?
Quote from: thewobbler on January 26, 2023, 07:27:55 PM
I kind of hope Crokes refuse a replay.
It'll be interesting then to see the reaction of those who've has spent the past 4 days squealing about the integrity of the game, and how KC cheated to win, and how if rule breakers aren't punished, the game is ruined, and how the top brass of GAA are a sham and a disgrace.
Will they declare such an outcome a success?
That would be bullshit from Crokes if it did happen. Enoch Burke could be the 16th man in their next match.
Quote from: seafoid on January 26, 2023, 07:30:58 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on January 26, 2023, 07:27:55 PM
I kind of hope Crokes refuse a replay.
It'll be interesting then to see the reaction of those who've has spent the past 4 days squealing about the integrity of the game, and how KC cheated to win, and how if rule breakers aren't punished, the game is ruined, and how the top brass of GAA are a sham and a disgrace.
Will they declare such an outcome a success?
That would be bullshit from Crokes if it did happen. Enoch Burke could be the 16th man in their next match.
Enoch Burke .... How original of you 😂
Quote from: thewobbler on January 26, 2023, 07:27:55 PM
I kind of hope Crokes refuse a replay.
It'll be interesting then to see the reaction of those who've has spent the past 4 days squealing about the integrity of the game, and how KC cheated to win, and how if rule breakers aren't punished, the game is ruined, and how the top brass of GAA are a sham and a disgrace.
Will they declare such an outcome a success?
I'd say Glen will refuse a replay first. I haven't talked to any of their players but that's what I'm hearing. If by chance they did take a replay I'd be very confident that crokes would refuse. That's why I think there is zero chance of a replay.
talks of maybe replay on st.Patricks day.
If Glen are offered a reply and refuse surely Kilmacud should still be stripped of the title and 2023 All Ireland Club Champions declared as null and void.
This is senior hurling
Replay may be some way off as Kilmacud prepare to play hardball
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/26/replay-may-be-someway-off-as-kilmacud-prepare-to-play-hardball/
Even if the decision to replay the All-Ireland club final is taken, finding a date will prove problematic
Seán Moran
Thu Jan 26 2023 - 18:14
By Thursday afternoon, there was still no word from Kilmacud as to what the club's response would be to Glen's objection to the outcome of Sunday's All-Ireland club football final.
There have been plenty of rumours and informed speculation that within the club there is a hard-line view that no replay should be entertained. Of course, no decision on that can be taken until Kilmacud convey their response to the Croke Park's Central Competitions Control Committee.
As the CCCC wait, there are a number of complications. Clearly the most straightforward resolution would be for the club to go quietly and accept the rationale for a replay.
Even in those circumstances, finding a date isn't easy. There was no replay date set because Sunday's final was designated, "winner on the day". The Allianz Football League starts on Saturday and players from both clubs might expect to have an involvement with their counties.
Although Dublin and Derry play on the same day for the opening two weekends of the league, four of their next six matches are on different dates, making it difficult to slot the replay in on a Saturday or Sunday.
The Saturday of the blank football weekend on February 11th and 12th is also the date for Glen centrefielder Emmett Bradley's wedding. The next blank weekend for the NFL is a month later, March 11th and 12th.
Finding a day that everyone can live with shouldn't be beyond the CCCC but the date mightn't be as far away from the traditional club finals' spot in the calendar of St Patrick's Day as initial joking suggested.
If Kilmacud resist the proposed sanction of replay, have they any realistic remedy? After all, the 16 men were broadcast live in all their supernumerary splendour.
There were two substitutions being made and set in motion in the 63rd minute as Danny Tallon was lining up the 45. The linesman, standing on the field, can be seen raising his flag to signify the first substitution and referee Derek O'Mahoney halts play for Tom Fox to come in for Paul Mannion, who on being informed, sticks out his hand and leaves.
The second arrival, Conor Casey then comes in but play resumes as he reaches front of the goal – with Dara Mullin, who he's replacing, still standing on the goal-line where he took up position.
16th man Kilmacud
Kilmacud had 16 players on the pitch in the closing stages of their All-Ireland club football final win over Glen on Sunday
An argument from some in the club is that they were conducting a substitution when the referee played on and whistled for the 45.
A protest from Glen that the kick should be retaken in the immediate aftermath also fell on deaf ears.
Does the question come down to intent? If a team ends up with too many players on the field, is it an infraction of strict liability: they either have or have not? Or might it become a part of the "circumstances" considered when imposing a penalty under Rule 6.44?
It may be reasonably argued that it is the substituting team's responsibility to conduct the process properly but precedent has generally involved mistakes, such as sending in too many substitutes or trying retrospectively to categorise one or more as blood subs, rather than the act of replacement itself.
It is established that a referee's mistake is not grounds for overturning a result. In the 2005 DRA case between Limerick county board and Fr Casey's, it was found:
"How an error at any particular stage in a game will affect the outcome is something of an imponderable, and the fact that injustice will occasionally result from a blanket protection of referees' decisions is a consequence that must be borne by all. It is the lesser evil."
Were this to apply to 6.44, it would make many challenges in situations like this redundant and the rule's clear meaning puts responsibility on the team making the switch. There is, however, room for argument.
Any potential replay may not require floodlights
What is 'informed speculation' when it's at home? ???
I wonder did both Chairmen have an informal chat about things?
Given there was 2 subs in additional time. Should the ref have played another minute after the 3 mins? One for you perhaps MR2
Why would any of the Glen players be talking to you Lenny? Obvious from what u post on here u no time for them. Glen will not refuse a replay and will turn up for one.
Quote from: JoG2 on January 26, 2023, 05:25:10 PM
Quote from: Hereiam on January 26, 2023, 05:09:49 PM
I hear that Crokes have told Croke park that they will hand the trophy and title to An Glen if they will accept it.
Great news, wonder will some of the Glen team be able to take it with them on the stag do next week? Could push them over the luggage weight limit.. Another handlin to sort
Are they off to Boston?
Quote from: Walter Cronc on January 26, 2023, 09:05:51 PM
Given there was 2 subs in additional time. Should the ref have played another minute after the 3 mins? One for you perhaps MR2
For me it's down to how long that takes to get them off, injury time was 3 minutes, he played nearly 4 minutes or over?
Personally I hate time wasting, I lift my hand show I'm stopping the watch and then start it. Slow kick outs you can't add it's meant to be a yellow card for deliberately delaying.
From watching it at the time I personally felt 4/5 minutes would be plenty, 3 was a bit short for that.
But it's down to each ref. The ref could have saved himself and allowed the subs after the 45, as no one can come on without permission
In the rulebook, it doesn't matter who was at fault, Either team, managers, ref etc, just the penalties for the infraction. KC response of it wasn't our fault in a appeal will cut zero mustard according to the rulebook.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 26, 2023, 09:16:01 PM
Why would any of the Glen players be talking to you Lenny? Obvious from what u post on here u no time for them. Glen will not refuse a replay and will turn up for one.
I have never once criticised the Glen club until the last couple of days and I've supported them all the way in Ulster and All Ireland. Show me one single post where I've criticised them.
Quote from: Lotto on January 26, 2023, 08:28:27 PM
Quote from: Eire90 on January 26, 2023, 08:02:05 PM
talks of maybe replay on st.Patricks day.
From who?
some guy on the ourgame podcast maybe just his opinion.
So this could drag on for some time. Did the ref refuse Watty's a second go at the 45 featuring 15 aside ?
As Mencken observed, for every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2023, 02:32:12 PM
Quote from: ClubScene13 on January 26, 2023, 02:19:18 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2023, 02:13:24 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 26, 2023, 01:45:38 PM
Yeah right, just another Muppet running around under dual accounts.
Who you calling a muppet? Catch yerself on.
Watch yourself Weasel, your man is the biggest slabber on this thing but you daren't say a word or you get reported.
49 posts...
What's 49 posts got to do with anything? The poster has been on here for six months which is long enough to form an opinion about such things.
So McEntee got two yellows and stayed on the pitch and Cross won the final.. but I suppose that was before Twitter
I was at the Mageean Cup final this year, SLG and St Killians. SLG were three ahead and St Killians had a free or a 65 on the blow, SLG made a sub and the player never went off. Came to nothing, whistle blew, SLG fans ran on the field and then the ref had to clear the field as he was blowing because he wanted it retaken. Retake happened and again came to nothing and SLG won.
Malachy O Rourke said he realised at the time and asked for a retake but the officials ignored it. That's inexcusable.
Also, Dara Mullin, I'm not buying he didn't know he was to come off. He stayed on and Kilmacud had 16 on so it's a clear breach.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 11:21:47 PM
So McEntee got two yellows and stayed on the pitch and Cross won the final.. but I suppose that was before Twitter
A player is only obliged to leave the field of play when they receive a red card. I think as a ref you know that.
What's the chances of Glenn being invited to the kilmacud sevens this July like all the other county champions?
If KC play hardball the GAA will be in a difficult position. It's their rule book.
They might have to respond. Teams play in Croke Park on the understanding that they follow the rules.
Quote from: SaffronSports on January 26, 2023, 11:43:45 PM
I was at the Mageean Cup final this year, SLG and St Killians. SLG were three ahead and St Killians had a free or a 65 on the blow, SLG made a sub and the player never went off. Came to nothing, whistle blew, SLG fans ran on the field and then the ref had to clear the field as he was blowing because he wanted it retaken. Retake happened and again came to nothing and SLG won.
Malachy O Rourke said he realised at the time and asked for a retake but the officials ignored it. That's inexcusable.
Also, Dara Mullin, I'm not buying he didn't know he was to come off. He stayed on and Kilmacud had 16 on so it's a clear breach.
That decision to ignore Malachy O'Rourke was a huge mistake. The GAA has been in crisis mode and all over the media all week as a result of it.
The irony is is that a replayed 45 with 15 versus 15 might have resulted in nothing. The whole situation is insane.
Quote from: seafoid on January 27, 2023, 07:00:14 AM
Quote from: SaffronSports on January 26, 2023, 11:43:45 PM
I was at the Mageean Cup final this year, SLG and St Killians. SLG were three ahead and St Killians had a free or a 65 on the blow, SLG made a sub and the player never went off. Came to nothing, whistle blew, SLG fans ran on the field and then the ref had to clear the field as he was blowing because he wanted it retaken. Retake happened and again came to nothing and SLG won.
Malachy O Rourke said he realised at the time and asked for a retake but the officials ignored it. That's inexcusable.
Also, Dara Mullin, I'm not buying he didn't know he was to come off. He stayed on and Kilmacud had 16 on so it's a clear breach.
That decision to ignore Malachy O'Rourke was a huge mistake. The GAA has been in crisis mode and all over the media all week as a result of it.
The irony is is that a replayed 45 with 15 versus 15 might have resulted in nothing. The whole situation is insane.
Malachy also said that Glen would accept the result and I'm pretty certain they still will. I think they just want the moral high ground and to be told they're entitled to a replay. I still think the rules are ambiguous and crokes could be given a fine. Despite what people have said here a fine is still an option for this minor transgression particularly since the main fault is unfortunately with the officials.
Quote from: lenny on January 27, 2023, 07:14:34 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 27, 2023, 07:00:14 AM
Quote from: SaffronSports on January 26, 2023, 11:43:45 PM
I was at the Mageean Cup final this year, SLG and St Killians. SLG were three ahead and St Killians had a free or a 65 on the blow, SLG made a sub and the player never went off. Came to nothing, whistle blew, SLG fans ran on the field and then the ref had to clear the field as he was blowing because he wanted it retaken. Retake happened and again came to nothing and SLG won.
Malachy O Rourke said he realised at the time and asked for a retake but the officials ignored it. That's inexcusable.
Also, Dara Mullin, I'm not buying he didn't know he was to come off. He stayed on and Kilmacud had 16 on so it's a clear breach.
That decision to ignore Malachy O'Rourke was a huge mistake. The GAA has been in crisis mode and all over the media all week as a result of it.
The irony is is that a replayed 45 with 15 versus 15 might have resulted in nothing. The whole situation is insane.
Malachy also said that Glen would accept the result and I'm pretty certain they still will. I think they just want the moral high ground and to be told they're entitled to a replay. I still think the rules are ambiguous and crokes could be given a fine. Despite what people have said here a fine is still an option for this minor transgression particularly since the main fault is unfortunately with the officials.
Disgraceful if O'Rourke said that to officials and was ignored, absolute disgrace. I don't see what good a fine does Glen ( who were wrong) or why punish Crokes in that way if they've done nothing wrong.
Quote from: lenny on January 27, 2023, 07:14:34 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 27, 2023, 07:00:14 AM
Quote from: SaffronSports on January 26, 2023, 11:43:45 PM
I was at the Mageean Cup final this year, SLG and St Killians. SLG were three ahead and St Killians had a free or a 65 on the blow, SLG made a sub and the player never went off. Came to nothing, whistle blew, SLG fans ran on the field and then the ref had to clear the field as he was blowing because he wanted it retaken. Retake happened and again came to nothing and SLG won.
Malachy O Rourke said he realised at the time and asked for a retake but the officials ignored it. That's inexcusable.
Also, Dara Mullin, I'm not buying he didn't know he was to come off. He stayed on and Kilmacud had 16 on so it's a clear breach.
That decision to ignore Malachy O'Rourke was a huge mistake. The GAA has been in crisis mode and all over the media all week as a result of it.
The irony is is that a replayed 45 with 15 versus 15 might have resulted in nothing. The whole situation is insane.
Malachy also said that Glen would accept the result and I'm pretty certain they still will. I think they just want the moral high ground and to be told they're entitled to a replay. I still think the rules are ambiguous and crokes could be given a fine. Despite what people have said here a fine is still an option for this minor transgression particularly since the main fault is unfortunately with the officials.
Of course they will, especially given they have objected to it.
And of course it's a minor transgression according to the rules. Why did they only have 17 on the pitch if it was only for 2 seconds ? They could have had 40. It's inversely proportional to the time it takes to kick a ball.
Quote from: lenny on January 27, 2023, 07:14:34 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 27, 2023, 07:00:14 AM
Quote from: SaffronSports on January 26, 2023, 11:43:45 PM
I was at the Mageean Cup final this year, SLG and St Killians. SLG were three ahead and St Killians had a free or a 65 on the blow, SLG made a sub and the player never went off. Came to nothing, whistle blew, SLG fans ran on the field and then the ref had to clear the field as he was blowing because he wanted it retaken. Retake happened and again came to nothing and SLG won.
Malachy O Rourke said he realised at the time and asked for a retake but the officials ignored it. That's inexcusable.
Also, Dara Mullin, I'm not buying he didn't know he was to come off. He stayed on and Kilmacud had 16 on so it's a clear breach.
That decision to ignore Malachy O'Rourke was a huge mistake. The GAA has been in crisis mode and all over the media all week as a result of it.
The irony is is that a replayed 45 with 15 versus 15 might have resulted in nothing. The whole situation is insane.
Malachy also said that Glen would accept the result and I'm pretty certain they still will. I think they just want the moral high ground and to be told they're entitled to a replay. I still think the rules are ambiguous and crokes could be given a fine. Despite what people have said here a fine is still an option for this minor transgression particularly since the main fault is unfortunately with the officials.
He said that immediately after, with all the details still not known at that time. And he is an outside manager. I'm not sure he speaks for the whole Glen club. I'd be very surprised if they went with this. Seeing as they lodged an objection 3 days ago suggest they do not agree with his response, which is fair enough since the details became known after.
Is this not we're Brollys point was relevant that O'Rourke isn't a Glen man and could potentially manage KC in the future?
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on January 27, 2023, 08:59:36 AM
Is this not we're Brollys point was relevant that O'Rourke isn't a Glen man and could potentially manage KC in the future?
I think that's overthinking it. He was asked in the spur of the moment and he couldn't speak on behalf of the club given what had happened.
Quote from: seafoid on January 27, 2023, 09:08:44 AM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on January 27, 2023, 08:59:36 AM
Is this not we're Brollys point was relevant that O'Rourke isn't a Glen man and could potentially manage KC in the future?
I think that's overthinking it. He was asked in the spur of the moment and he couldn't speak on behalf of the club given what had happened.
You've been over thinking a lot recently ;D
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 11:21:47 PM
So McEntee got two yellows and stayed on the pitch and Cross won the final.. but I suppose that was before Twitter
No its because Cross won comfortably, Crokes didn't and no one will ever know the outcome in that last period without that extra player they had, who was standing on the goal line.
Quote from: lenny on January 27, 2023, 07:14:34 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 27, 2023, 07:00:14 AM
Quote from: SaffronSports on January 26, 2023, 11:43:45 PM
I was at the Mageean Cup final this year, SLG and St Killians. SLG were three ahead and St Killians had a free or a 65 on the blow, SLG made a sub and the player never went off. Came to nothing, whistle blew, SLG fans ran on the field and then the ref had to clear the field as he was blowing because he wanted it retaken. Retake happened and again came to nothing and SLG won.
Malachy O Rourke said he realised at the time and asked for a retake but the officials ignored it. That's inexcusable.
Also, Dara Mullin, I'm not buying he didn't know he was to come off. He stayed on and Kilmacud had 16 on so it's a clear breach.
That decision to ignore Malachy O'Rourke was a huge mistake. The GAA has been in crisis mode and all over the media all week as a result of it.
The irony is is that a replayed 45 with 15 versus 15 might have resulted in nothing. The whole situation is insane.
Malachy also said that Glen would accept the result and I'm pretty certain they still will. I think they just want the moral high ground and to be told they're entitled to a replay. I still think the rules are ambiguous and crokes could be given a fine. Despite what people have said here a fine is still an option for this minor transgression particularly since the main fault is unfortunately with the officials.
Malachy O Rouke was just giving an opinion. The players and committee hardly had time to delegate with him straight after the final whistle.
Former ref Maurice Deegan on the mess and what sort of changes may ne necessary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b15gLkEs7eE&t=3420s
Quote from: Rawhide on January 27, 2023, 09:37:00 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 11:21:47 PM
So McEntee got two yellows and stayed on the pitch and Cross won the final.. but I suppose that was before Twitter
No its because Cross won comfortably, Crokes didn't and no one will ever know the outcome in that last period without that extra player they had, who was standing on the goal line.
It was a draw at the time of the sending off - no one will ever know the outcome in that last 10 minutes without the extra player Cross had, who was arguably their best forward.
Quote from: Mike Tyson on January 27, 2023, 10:24:17 AM
Quote from: Rawhide on January 27, 2023, 09:37:00 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 11:21:47 PM
So McEntee got two yellows and stayed on the pitch and Cross won the final.. but I suppose that was before Twitter
No its because Cross won comfortably, Crokes didn't and no one will ever know the outcome in that last period without that extra player they had, who was standing on the goal line.
It was a draw at the time of the sending off - no one will ever know the outcome in that last 10 minutes without the extra player Cross had, who was arguably their best forward.
Not sure why people are comparing this.
The referee didnt send the player off - this is down to one individual error.
KC had 16 players on the field due to a number of errors. Referee, linesman, KC officials, player entering the field, player not leaving the field (if indeed he knew he was to be taken off)
Quote from: Taylor on January 27, 2023, 10:38:27 AM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on January 27, 2023, 10:24:17 AM
Quote from: Rawhide on January 27, 2023, 09:37:00 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 11:21:47 PM
So McEntee got two yellows and stayed on the pitch and Cross won the final.. but I suppose that was before Twitter
No its because Cross won comfortably, Crokes didn't and no one will ever know the outcome in that last period without that extra player they had, who was standing on the goal line.
It was a draw at the time of the sending off - no one will ever know the outcome in that last 10 minutes without the extra player Cross had, who was arguably their best forward.
Not sure why people are comparing this.
The referee didnt send the player off - this is down to one individual error.
KC had 16 players on the field due to a number of errors. Referee, linesman, KC officials, player entering the field, player not leaving the field (if indeed he knew he was to be taken off)
An extra man for 10 minutes in a game that was level at the time due to a refereeing error, I can only imagine the outrage and fury that would result if that happened now. Social media has a lot to answer for.
Why didn't KC put the subs on earlier? I think there was an element of gamesmanship involved , even though KC are clearly the victims in all of this due to entrenched anti Dublin bias.
Quote from: Rawhide on January 27, 2023, 09:37:00 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 11:21:47 PM
So McEntee got two yellows and stayed on the pitch and Cross won the final.. but I suppose that was before Twitter
No its because Cross won comfortably, Crokes didn't and no one will ever know the outcome in that last period without that extra player they had, who was standing on the goal line.
So breaking the rules regardless of the score is ok? Hmm wasn't getting that from the previous posts
Quote from: Taylor on January 27, 2023, 10:38:27 AM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on January 27, 2023, 10:24:17 AM
Quote from: Rawhide on January 27, 2023, 09:37:00 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 11:21:47 PM
So McEntee got two yellows and stayed on the pitch and Cross won the final.. but I suppose that was before Twitter
No its because Cross won comfortably, Crokes didn't and no one will ever know the outcome in that last period without that extra player they had, who was standing on the goal line.
It was a draw at the time of the sending off - no one will ever know the outcome in that last 10 minutes without the extra player Cross had, who was arguably their best forward.
Not sure why people are comparing this.
The referee didnt send the player off - this is down to one individual error.
KC had 16 players on the field due to a number of errors. Referee, linesman, KC officials, player entering the field, player not leaving the field (if indeed he knew he was to be taken off)
It's been compared as it is a similar event. You could fire a number of your errors you listed in with what happened to McEntee too, e.g. Cross officials, player not leaving the field. So it's inaccurate to say that was due to only one error. And what has the number of errors got to do with it anyway?
Quote from: nrico2006 on January 27, 2023, 11:39:51 AM
Quote from: Taylor on January 27, 2023, 10:38:27 AM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on January 27, 2023, 10:24:17 AM
Quote from: Rawhide on January 27, 2023, 09:37:00 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 11:21:47 PM
So McEntee got two yellows and stayed on the pitch and Cross won the final.. but I suppose that was before Twitter
No its because Cross won comfortably, Crokes didn't and no one will ever know the outcome in that last period without that extra player they had, who was standing on the goal line.
It was a draw at the time of the sending off - no one will ever know the outcome in that last 10 minutes without the extra player Cross had, who was arguably their best forward.
Not sure why people are comparing this.
The referee didnt send the player off - this is down to one individual error.
KC had 16 players on the field due to a number of errors. Referee, linesman, KC officials, player entering the field, player not leaving the field (if indeed he knew he was to be taken off)
It's been compared as it is a similar event. You could fire a number of your errors you listed in with what happened to McEntee too, e.g. Cross officials, player not leaving the field. So it's inaccurate to say that was due to only one error. And what has the number of errors got to do with it anyway?
Could you then say that McEntee then cheated, cause he knew he had 2 yellows but decided to stay on?
Quote from: seafoid on January 27, 2023, 10:14:26 AM
Former ref Maurice Deegan on the mess and what sort of changes may ne necessary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b15gLkEs7eE&t=3420s
He was as clear as mud!!
Difficult situation but forget about everything else - one team needed a goal in the last play and the other team put a 16th man in the middle of the goals for the last play. Would any team sit back and allow that to pass by and say nothing
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 27, 2023, 11:38:26 AM
Quote from: Rawhide on January 27, 2023, 09:37:00 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 11:21:47 PM
So McEntee got two yellows and stayed on the pitch and Cross won the final.. but I suppose that was before Twitter
No its because Cross won comfortably, Crokes didn't and no one will ever know the outcome in that last period without that extra player they had, who was standing on the goal line.
So breaking the rules regardless of the score is ok? Hmm wasn't getting that from the previous posts
Wasnt it up to the ref to show him a red? Im sure McEntee would have went off if he was shown a red card
Quote from: the goal was on on January 27, 2023, 11:50:26 AM
Difficult situation but forget about everything else - one team needed a goal in the last play and the other team put a 16th man in the middle of the goals for the last play. Would any team sit back and allow that to pass by and say nothing
No and neither should have Dr Crokes but hey ho they just got on with the result, this was the rematch after the drawn game with your man took 25 steps before scoring the leveler ;D
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 27, 2023, 12:01:01 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 27, 2023, 11:38:26 AM
Quote from: Rawhide on January 27, 2023, 09:37:00 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 11:21:47 PM
So McEntee got two yellows and stayed on the pitch and Cross won the final.. but I suppose that was before Twitter
No its because Cross won comfortably, Crokes didn't and no one will ever know the outcome in that last period without that extra player they had, who was standing on the goal line.
So breaking the rules regardless of the score is ok? Hmm wasn't getting that from the previous posts
Wasnt it up to the ref to show him a red? Im sure McEntee would have went off if he was shown a red card
He's not thick like!! I mean 2 yellows doesn't mean play on lol.. He basically cheated by staying on, is it up to his team to take him off knowing it also? BC1 could fill us in ;D
The column inches and online stuff and radio shows are all losing the run of themselves on this.
This boils down to one simple point, Kilmacud cheated. End of debate, weather it was intentional, a slip up or a come to god moment by Mullin that he was to stay on and save the day is all irrelevant. That is the fact and they deserve punished, if Glen don't want to play the replay they still deserve punished.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 27, 2023, 12:03:32 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 27, 2023, 12:01:01 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 27, 2023, 11:38:26 AM
Quote from: Rawhide on January 27, 2023, 09:37:00 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 11:21:47 PM
So McEntee got two yellows and stayed on the pitch and Cross won the final.. but I suppose that was before Twitter
No its because Cross won comfortably, Crokes didn't and no one will ever know the outcome in that last period without that extra player they had, who was standing on the goal line.
So breaking the rules regardless of the score is ok? Hmm wasn't getting that from the previous posts
Wasnt it up to the ref to show him a red? Im sure McEntee would have went off if he was shown a red card
He's not thick like!! I mean 2 yellows doesn't mean play on lol.. He basically cheated by staying on, is it up to his team to take him off knowing it also? BC1 could fill us in ;D
Sure maybe he forgot he got the first yellow? ;)
Quote from: the goal was on on January 27, 2023, 11:50:26 AM
Difficult situation but forget about everything else - one team needed a goal in the last play and the other team put a 16th man in the middle of the goals for the last play. Would any team sit back and allow that to pass by and say nothing
Nail on head
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 27, 2023, 12:03:32 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 27, 2023, 12:01:01 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 27, 2023, 11:38:26 AM
Quote from: Rawhide on January 27, 2023, 09:37:00 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 11:21:47 PM
So McEntee got two yellows and stayed on the pitch and Cross won the final.. but I suppose that was before Twitter
No its because Cross won comfortably, Crokes didn't and no one will ever know the outcome in that last period without that extra player they had, who was standing on the goal line.
So breaking the rules regardless of the score is ok? Hmm wasn't getting that from the previous posts
Wasnt it up to the ref to show him a red? Im sure McEntee would have went off if he was shown a red card
He's not thick like!! I mean 2 yellows doesn't mean play on lol.. He basically cheated by staying on, is it up to his team to take him off knowing it also? BC1 could fill us in ;D
Maybe he thought his twin got the first one haha
Quote from: pbat on January 27, 2023, 12:08:50 PM
The column inches and online stuff and radio shows are all losing the run of themselves on this.
This boils down to one simple point, Kilmacud cheated. End of debate, weather it was intentional, a slip up or a come to god moment by Mullin that he was to stay on and save the day is all irrelevant. That is the fact and they deserve punished, if Glen don't want to play the replay they still deserve punished.
talking of people losing the run of themselves....🙄
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 27, 2023, 12:42:49 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 27, 2023, 12:03:32 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 27, 2023, 12:01:01 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 27, 2023, 11:38:26 AM
Quote from: Rawhide on January 27, 2023, 09:37:00 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 11:21:47 PM
So McEntee got two yellows and stayed on the pitch and Cross won the final.. but I suppose that was before Twitter
No its because Cross won comfortably, Crokes didn't and no one will ever know the outcome in that last period without that extra player they had, who was standing on the goal line.
So breaking the rules regardless of the score is ok? Hmm wasn't getting that from the previous posts
Wasnt it up to the ref to show him a red? Im sure McEntee would have went off if he was shown a red card
He's not thick like!! I mean 2 yellows doesn't mean play on lol.. He basically cheated by staying on, is it up to his team to take him off knowing it also? BC1 could fill us in ;D
Maybe he thought his twin got the first one haha
Must have also changed the number on his back too ;)
Quote from: the goal was on on January 27, 2023, 11:50:26 AM
Difficult situation but forget about everything else - one team needed a goal in the last play and the other team put a 16th man in the middle of the goals for the last play. Would any team sit back and allow that to pass by and say nothing
If Mullen had gone off then someone else would have gone back on the line.
There's plenty of clubs who wouldn't have objected.
Quote from: Maroon Manc on January 27, 2023, 01:13:07 PM
Quote from: the goal was on on January 27, 2023, 11:50:26 AM
Difficult situation but forget about everything else - one team needed a goal in the last play and the other team put a 16th man in the middle of the goals for the last play. Would any team sit back and allow that to pass by and say nothing
If Mullen had gone off then someone else would have gone back on the line.
There's plenty of clubs who wouldn't have objected.
Don't think he was in the middle of the goals either, by the post on the side were the ball didn't go, so not involved ;D
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 27, 2023, 01:16:34 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on January 27, 2023, 01:13:07 PM
Quote from: the goal was on on January 27, 2023, 11:50:26 AM
Difficult situation but forget about everything else - one team needed a goal in the last play and the other team put a 16th man in the middle of the goals for the last play. Would any team sit back and allow that to pass by and say nothing
If Mullen had gone off then someone else would have gone back on the line.
There's plenty of clubs who wouldn't have objected.
Don't think he was in the middle of the goals either, by the post on the side were the ball didn't go, so not involved ;D
He was on the line, reducing goal exposure , freeing up capacity for someone outfield. What happens with 16 v 15.
Quote from: seafoid on January 27, 2023, 01:48:34 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 27, 2023, 01:16:34 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on January 27, 2023, 01:13:07 PM
Quote from: the goal was on on January 27, 2023, 11:50:26 AM
Difficult situation but forget about everything else - one team needed a goal in the last play and the other team put a 16th man in the middle of the goals for the last play. Would any team sit back and allow that to pass by and say nothing
If Mullen had gone off then someone else would have gone back on the line.
There's plenty of clubs who wouldn't have objected.
Don't think he was in the middle of the goals either, by the post on the side were the ball didn't go, so not involved ;D
He was on the line, reducing goal exposure , freeing up capacity for someone outfield. What happens with 16 v 15.
We can wrap up this thread, there isn't going to be a replay even if the gaa award one. Glen don't want it and neither do crokes.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 27, 2023, 01:04:21 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 27, 2023, 12:42:49 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 27, 2023, 12:03:32 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 27, 2023, 12:01:01 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 27, 2023, 11:38:26 AM
Quote from: Rawhide on January 27, 2023, 09:37:00 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 26, 2023, 11:21:47 PM
So McEntee got two yellows and stayed on the pitch and Cross won the final.. but I suppose that was before Twitter
No its because Cross won comfortably, Crokes didn't and no one will ever know the outcome in that last period without that extra player they had, who was standing on the goal line.
So breaking the rules regardless of the score is ok? Hmm wasn't getting that from the previous posts
Wasnt it up to the ref to show him a red? Im sure McEntee would have went off if he was shown a red card
He's not thick like!! I mean 2 yellows doesn't mean play on lol.. He basically cheated by staying on, is it up to his team to take him off knowing it also? BC1 could fill us in ;D
Maybe he thought his twin got the first one haha
Must have also changed the number on his back too ;)
ye know what those cross boys are like. Go to any length not to be identified
Quote from: lenny on January 27, 2023, 01:50:17 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 27, 2023, 01:48:34 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 27, 2023, 01:16:34 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on January 27, 2023, 01:13:07 PM
Quote from: the goal was on on January 27, 2023, 11:50:26 AM
Difficult situation but forget about everything else - one team needed a goal in the last play and the other team put a 16th man in the middle of the goals for the last play. Would any team sit back and allow that to pass by and say nothing
If Mullen had gone off then someone else would have gone back on the line.
There's plenty of clubs who wouldn't have objected.
Don't think he was in the middle of the goals either, by the post on the side were the ball didn't go, so not involved ;D
He was on the line, reducing goal exposure , freeing up capacity for someone outfield. What happens with 16 v 15.
We can wrap up this thread, there isn't going to be a replay even if the gaa award one. Glen don't want it and neither do crokes.
What a waste of the year that's been if it turns out to be null and void... WOW
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 27, 2023, 02:35:06 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 27, 2023, 01:50:17 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 27, 2023, 01:48:34 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 27, 2023, 01:16:34 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on January 27, 2023, 01:13:07 PM
Quote from: the goal was on on January 27, 2023, 11:50:26 AM
Difficult situation but forget about everything else - one team needed a goal in the last play and the other team put a 16th man in the middle of the goals for the last play. Would any team sit back and allow that to pass by and say nothing
If Mullen had gone off then someone else would have gone back on the line.
There's plenty of clubs who wouldn't have objected.
Don't think he was in the middle of the goals either, by the post on the side were the ball didn't go, so not involved ;D
He was on the line, reducing goal exposure , freeing up capacity for someone outfield. What happens with 16 v 15.
We can wrap up this thread, there isn't going to be a replay even if the gaa award one. Glen don't want it and neither do crokes.
What a waste of the year that's been if it turns out to be null and void... WOW
Agreed 33 pages of waffle and counter waffle here and then bang nothing !
Quote from: lenny on January 27, 2023, 01:50:17 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 27, 2023, 01:48:34 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 27, 2023, 01:16:34 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on January 27, 2023, 01:13:07 PM
Quote from: the goal was on on January 27, 2023, 11:50:26 AM
Difficult situation but forget about everything else - one team needed a goal in the last play and the other team put a 16th man in the middle of the goals for the last play. Would any team sit back and allow that to pass by and say nothing
If Mullen had gone off then someone else would have gone back on the line.
There's plenty of clubs who wouldn't have objected.
Don't think he was in the middle of the goals either, by the post on the side were the ball didn't go, so not involved ;D
He was on the line, reducing goal exposure , freeing up capacity for someone outfield. What happens with 16 v 15.
We can wrap up this thread, there isn't going to be a replay even if the gaa award one. Glen don't want it and neither do crokes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2grE-qKw90
I've come to this debate late so apologies if this point has already been raised: Surely there is an onus on the referee to ensure that a replaced player has actually left the field BEFORE he restarts the game?
Quote from: The Hill is Blue on January 27, 2023, 03:45:39 PM
I've come to this debate late so apologies if this point has already been raised: Surely there is an onus on the referee to ensure that a replaced player has actually left the field BEFORE he restarts the game?
Apparently not ya stupid door ;) (that's not directed at you just in case someone comes on and calls ya that)
Fri Jan 27 2023 - 20:21
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/27/kilmacud-crokes-break-their-silence-to-challenge-glens-objection/
"Kilmacud Crokes have informed the GAA that they will be challenging the objection by Glen to last Sunday's All-Ireland club final.
The Dublin champions, who won the match 1-11 to 1-9 and were presented with the trophy have been pondering their response to the dispute, which was caused by their having 16 players on the pitch in the closing seconds.
The move will come as little surprise, as all the indications from the club, which has not said anything in public about the situation, were that they would strenuously resist any objection.
On Friday evening, the GAA's Central Competitions Control Committee received Kilmacud's counter-objection. They must now deliberate on the matter.
________________________________________
On the face of it, there's not much to consider. The 16 players can be clearly seen, as the Derry club's Danny Tallon lines up a 45 in injury time. At the heart of the matter is the choice of penalty under Rule 6.44: forfeit, replay or fine.
All week the talk has been about a replay but there have also been suggestions that Kilmacud will refuse to participate in a second match and instead return the trophy to Croke Park.
That is for the future, as the CCCC now have to organise a meeting. It's not the most convenient weekend with a Central Council meeting on Saturday and the intercounty season getting under way with the start of Allianz Football League.
Sources indicate that the meeting may take place on Monday. It will have to decide what happened and what penalty if any to impose. Indications to date have been that a replay is the most likely outcome but there is a sense that the issue will end up at the Disputes Resolution Authority (DRA), the GAA's independent arbitration service."
Kilmacud have retained Lenny and Hound as advisors, with Trailer in charge of sockpuppets.
seafoid, you have over 100 posts on this topic... take a break...obsessed
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 27, 2023, 09:02:16 PM
seafoid, you have over 100 posts on this topic... take a break...obsessed
And him from Galway
What have Galway got to do with kilmacud anyway, miles away
I am not convinced he even watched the game either ;D
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 27, 2023, 09:13:31 PM
I am not convinced he even watched the game either ;D
😂😂
Did a game tonight... no sub issues
For a split second when reading this line "Kilmacud have retained Lenny and Hound...." I thought that's an odd name for a solicitors firm :)
Quote from: lenny on January 27, 2023, 01:50:17 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 27, 2023, 01:48:34 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 27, 2023, 01:16:34 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on January 27, 2023, 01:13:07 PM
Quote from: the goal was on on January 27, 2023, 11:50:26 AM
Difficult situation but forget about everything else - one team needed a goal in the last play and the other team put a 16th man in the middle of the goals for the last play. Would any team sit back and allow that to pass by and say nothing
If Mullen had gone off then someone else would have gone back on the line.
There's plenty of clubs who wouldn't have objected.
Don't think he was in the middle of the goals either, by the post on the side were the ball didn't go, so not involved ;D
He was on the line, reducing goal exposure , freeing up capacity for someone outfield. What happens with 16 v 15.
We can wrap up this thread, there isn't going to be a replay even if the gaa award one. Glen don't want it and neither do crokes.
....and you know this to be a fact....were you taking to a boy who was taking to someone who knows such an such....🙄
For a Derry person, Lenny is doing his best as a spokesperson for Kilmacud
Can't see how kilmacud can object
Is it true that Glen wouldn't help Slaughtneil out when they needed a pitch when they were going flat out on all fronts?
They shouldn't replay the game but just retake the free. Get everyone together and if Watty's can get a goal in one play from a free then they keep the cup. Kilmacud only allowed 15 men this time.
Quote from: Olly on January 28, 2023, 12:38:35 AM
Is it true that Glen wouldn't help Slaughtneil out when they needed a pitch when they were going flat out on all fronts?
Lay off the kool-aid Olly you clampit!
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/28/we-should-be-screaming-about-survey-on-problem-gambling-among-intercounty-gaa-players/
I went for lunch on Wednesday with a dear friend who, to put it mildly, wouldn't be big into sport. She has nothing against it, it's just a world that lies behind a door she has never felt the urge to open. A typical text message: "Going to be over your way today around 3.30, might drop by?" That was the day of the 2021 All-Ireland final.
Anyway, we met for a bowl of soup on Wednesday and her first question, even before we'd hung our coats on the backs of the chairs, was, "Well, is there going to be a replay?"
Quote from: WT4E on January 28, 2023, 12:23:10 AM
Can't see how kilmacud can object
Their argument is they did nothing wrong.
They advised the officials they wanted to make the substitution.
The officials allowed the sub to come on.
The officials allowed the game to re-start without allowing time for Mullin to go off (or for anyone to tell Mullin that he was going off).
The officials were notified of their error and did not order a retake.
Just a refereeing mistake. One of those things. Unfortunate for Glen, but the rule everyone quotes is for when a club puts an extra player on without the permission of the officials. You can't penalise Crokes for the officials making a mistake.
That's how they can, and are, objecting.
During the 6 seconds of play where Crokes had 16 on the pitch, the Glen full back had a great chance to deflect the ball into the net, but missed. Imagine an alternative scenario where it was 15 v 15, and the full back got the crucial touch, the ball ended up in the net, the officials missed that he was in the square before the ball was played to him and wrongly allowed the goal. Would there be grounds for a replay because the winning goal was illegal? Of course not. A ref's error. Unfortunate for Crokes, but one of those things.
Quote from: Hound on January 28, 2023, 08:54:52 AM
Quote from: WT4E on January 28, 2023, 12:23:10 AM
Can't see how kilmacud can object
Their argument is they did nothing wrong.
They advised the officials they wanted to make the substitution.
The officials allowed the sub to come on.
The officials allowed the game to re-start without allowing time for Mullin to go off (or for anyone to tell Mullin that he was going off).
The officials were notified of their error and did not order a retake.
Just a refereeing mistake. One of those things. Unfortunate for Glen, but the rule everyone quotes is for when a club puts an extra player on without the permission of the officials. You can't penalise Crokes for the officials making a mistake.
That's how they can, and are, objecting.
During the 6 seconds of play where Crokes had 16 on the pitch, the Glen full back had a great chance to deflect the ball into the net, but missed. Imagine an alternative scenario where it was 15 v 15, and the full back got the crucial touch, the ball ended up in the net, the officials missed that he was in the square before the ball was played to him and wrongly allowed the goal. Would there be grounds for a replay because the winning goal was illegal? Of course not. A ref's error. Unfortunate for Crokes, but one of those things.
That's how I see it also.
Quote from: Hound on January 28, 2023, 08:54:52 AM
Quote from: WT4E on January 28, 2023, 12:23:10 AM
Can't see how kilmacud can object
Their argument is they did nothing wrong.
They advised the officials they wanted to make the substitution.
The officials allowed the sub to come on.
The officials allowed the game to re-start without allowing time for Mullin to go off (or for anyone to tell Mullin that he was going off).
The officials were notified of their error and did not order a retake.
Just a refereeing mistake. One of those things. Unfortunate for Glen, but the rule everyone quotes is for when a club puts an extra player on without the permission of the officials. You can't penalise Crokes for the officials making a mistake.
That's how they can, and are, objecting.
During the 6 seconds of play where Crokes had 16 on the pitch, the Glen full back had a great chance to deflect the ball into the net, but missed. Imagine an alternative scenario where it was 15 v 15, and the full back got the crucial touch, the ball ended up in the net, the officials missed that he was in the square before the ball was played to him and wrongly allowed the goal. Would there be grounds for a replay because the winning goal was illegal? Of course not. A ref's error. Unfortunate for Crokes, but one of those things.
Careful, you'll be called a stupid door for using logic like that!!
Quote from: Hound on January 28, 2023, 08:54:52 AM
Quote from: WT4E on January 28, 2023, 12:23:10 AM
Can't see how kilmacud can object
Their argument is they did nothing wrong.
They advised the officials they wanted to make the substitution.
The officials allowed the sub to come on.
The officials allowed the game to re-start without allowing time for Mullin to go off (or for anyone to tell Mullin that he was going off).
The officials were notified of their error and did not order a retake.
Just a refereeing mistake. One of those things. Unfortunate for Glen, but the rule everyone quotes is for when a club puts an extra player on without the permission of the officials. You can't penalise Crokes for the officials making a mistake.
That's how they can, and are, objecting.
During the 6 seconds of play where Crokes had 16 on the pitch, the Glen full back had a great chance to deflect the ball into the net, but missed. Imagine an alternative scenario where it was 15 v 15, and the full back got the crucial touch, the ball ended up in the net, the officials missed that he was in the square before the ball was played to him and wrongly allowed the goal. Would there be grounds for a replay because the winning goal was illegal? Of course not. A ref's error. Unfortunate for Crokes, but one of those things.
Crokes can try to blame the officials, but it's a dangerous precedent being set if Crokes win the All Ireland on the back of it.
Not saying Crokes did this but imagine how teams going forward could cause chaos and confusion at a critical point in a game throwing on sub after sub whilst trying to defend a lead. If they end up with one or two extra defenders to see out the game/win ahh sure it's the officials fault, nothing to do with us, we won the game fairly.
KC are probably angling for a fine rather than a replay. Rules don't work via manipulation.
Imagine it was an unintentional mistake on both the officials and KC and social has driven this ?
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on January 27, 2023, 09:09:17 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 27, 2023, 09:02:16 PM
seafoid, you have over 100 posts on this topic... take a break...obsessed
And him from Galway
What have Galway got to do with kilmacud anyway, miles away
Good one Hoof 😀😀😀
Doherty and Glass are starting against Limerick tomorrow so they're not waiting for any replay.
Quote from: Hound on January 28, 2023, 08:54:52 AM
Quote from: WT4E on January 28, 2023, 12:23:10 AM
Can't see how kilmacud can object
Their argument is they did nothing wrong.
They advised the officials they wanted to make the substitution.
The officials allowed the sub to come on.
The officials allowed the game to re-start without allowing time for Mullin to go off (or for anyone to tell Mullin that he was going off).
The officials were notified of their error and did not order a retake.
Just a refereeing mistake. One of those things. Unfortunate for Glen, but the rule everyone quotes is for when a club puts an extra player on without the permission of the officials. You can't penalise Crokes for the officials making a mistake.
That's how they can, and are, objecting.
During the 6 seconds of play where Crokes had 16 on the pitch, the Glen full back had a great chance to deflect the ball into the net, but missed. Imagine an alternative scenario where it was 15 v 15, and the full back got the crucial touch, the ball ended up in the net, the officials missed that he was in the square before the ball was played to him and wrongly allowed the goal. Would there be grounds for a replay because the winning goal was illegal? Of course not. A ref's error. Unfortunate for Crokes, but one of those things.
All irrelevant. They had 17 players on the field of play....it's not a credible defence to say 'he didn't know he had to go off' if that was the case then every future defence in rule breaking will be we didn't know. Wise up and stop being so naive.
Quote from: Hound on January 28, 2023, 08:54:52 AM
Quote from: WT4E on January 28, 2023, 12:23:10 AM
Can't see how kilmacud can object
Their argument is they did nothing wrong.
They advised the officials they wanted to make the substitution.
The officials allowed the sub to come on.
The officials allowed the game to re-start without allowing time for Mullin to go off (or for anyone to tell Mullin that he was going off).
The officials were notified of their error and did not order a retake.
Just a refereeing mistake. One of those things. Unfortunate for Glen, but the rule everyone quotes is for when a club puts an extra player on without the permission of the officials. You can't penalise Crokes for the officials making a mistake.
That's how they can, and are, objecting.
During the 6 seconds of play where Crokes had 16 on the pitch, the Glen full back had a great chance to deflect the ball into the net, but missed. Imagine an alternative scenario where it was 15 v 15, and the full back got the crucial touch, the ball ended up in the net, the officials missed that he was in the square before the ball was played to him and wrongly allowed the goal. Would there be grounds for a replay because the winning goal was illegal? Of course not. A ref's error. Unfortunate for Crokes, but one of those things.
this 100%, that's how I see it.
It can't be proven that the 17 were an accident unless KC is investigated properly. The GAA has a wider problem with discipline at the end of football games.
Quote from: Hound on January 28, 2023, 08:54:52 AM
Quote from: WT4E on January 28, 2023, 12:23:10 AM
Can't see how kilmacud can object
Their argument is they did nothing wrong.
They advised the officials they wanted to make the substitution.
The officials allowed the sub to come on.
The officials allowed the game to re-start without allowing time for Mullin to go off (or for anyone to tell Mullin that he was going off).
The officials were notified of their error and did not order a retake.
Just a refereeing mistake. One of those things. Unfortunate for Glen, but the rule everyone quotes is for when a club puts an extra player on without the permission of the officials. You can't penalise Crokes for the officials making a mistake.
That's how they can, and are, objecting.
During the 6 seconds of play where Crokes had 16 on the pitch, the Glen full back had a great chance to deflect the ball into the net, but missed. Imagine an alternative scenario where it was 15 v 15, and the full back got the crucial touch, the ball ended up in the net, the officials missed that he was in the square before the ball was played to him and wrongly allowed the goal. Would there be grounds for a replay because the winning goal was illegal? Of course not. A ref's error. Unfortunate for Crokes, but one of those things.
This.
Quote from: seafoid on January 28, 2023, 11:42:55 AM
It can't be proven that the 17 were an accident unless KC is investigated properly. The GAA has a wider problem with discipline at the end of football games.
Colombo or CSI Miami team which is your preference to carry out the investigation?. Have mobile phones been seized yet 🙄
Quote from: LeoMc on January 28, 2023, 11:48:54 AM
Quote from: Hound on January 28, 2023, 08:54:52 AM
Quote from: WT4E on January 28, 2023, 12:23:10 AM
Can't see how kilmacud can object
Their argument is they did nothing wrong.
They advised the officials they wanted to make the substitution.
The officials allowed the sub to come on.
The officials allowed the game to re-start without allowing time for Mullin to go off (or for anyone to tell Mullin that he was going off).
The officials were notified of their error and did not order a retake.
Just a refereeing mistake. One of those things. Unfortunate for Glen, but the rule everyone quotes is for when a club puts an extra player on without the permission of the officials. You can't penalise Crokes for the officials making a mistake.
That's how they can, and are, objecting.
During the 6 seconds of play where Crokes had 16 on the pitch, the Glen full back had a great chance to deflect the ball into the net, but missed. Imagine an alternative scenario where it was 15 v 15, and the full back got the crucial touch, the ball ended up in the net, the officials missed that he was in the square before the ball was played to him and wrongly allowed the goal. Would there be grounds for a replay because the winning goal was illegal? Of course not. A ref's error. Unfortunate for Crokes, but one of those things.
This.
So a team can fire on as many players as they want and its up to the ref to sort out? Lack of responsibility from crokes is unreal
They didn't fire them on though, they went through the process, ref allowed it and didn't restart the game with 15 v 15
Either way it's a mess and be interesting to see how it pans out
Quote from: tyrone08 on January 28, 2023, 12:05:45 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on January 28, 2023, 11:48:54 AM
Quote from: Hound on January 28, 2023, 08:54:52 AM
Quote from: WT4E on January 28, 2023, 12:23:10 AM
Can't see how kilmacud can object
Their argument is they did nothing wrong.
They advised the officials they wanted to make the substitution.
The officials allowed the sub to come on.
The officials allowed the game to re-start without allowing time for Mullin to go off (or for anyone to tell Mullin that he was going off).
The officials were notified of their error and did not order a retake.
Just a refereeing mistake. One of those things. Unfortunate for Glen, but the rule everyone quotes is for when a club puts an extra player on without the permission of the officials. You can't penalise Crokes for the officials making a mistake.
That's how they can, and are, objecting.
During the 6 seconds of play where Crokes had 16 on the pitch, the Glen full back had a great chance to deflect the ball into the net, but missed. Imagine an alternative scenario where it was 15 v 15, and the full back got the crucial touch, the ball ended up in the net, the officials missed that he was in the square before the ball was played to him and wrongly allowed the goal. Would there be grounds for a replay because the winning goal was illegal? Of course not. A ref's error. Unfortunate for Crokes, but one of those things.
This.
So a team can fire on as many players as they want and its up to the ref to sort out? Lack of responsibility from crokes is unreal
It is up to the referee to referee. He made an error, quite a big one, but it had no material impact on the result. Bench the referee and get on with it - too much sorted out at committee l
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2023, 12:33:41 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on January 28, 2023, 12:05:45 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on January 28, 2023, 11:48:54 AM
Quote from: Hound on January 28, 2023, 08:54:52 AM
Quote from: WT4E on January 28, 2023, 12:23:10 AM
Can't see how kilmacud can object
Their argument is they did nothing wrong.
They advised the officials they wanted to make the substitution.
The officials allowed the sub to come on.
The officials allowed the game to re-start without allowing time for Mullin to go off (or for anyone to tell Mullin that he was going off).
The officials were notified of their error and did not order a retake.
Just a refereeing mistake. One of those things. Unfortunate for Glen, but the rule everyone quotes is for when a club puts an extra player on without the permission of the officials. You can't penalise Crokes for the officials making a mistake.
That's how they can, and are, objecting.
During the 6 seconds of play where Crokes had 16 on the pitch, the Glen full back had a great chance to deflect the ball into the net, but missed. Imagine an alternative scenario where it was 15 v 15, and the full back got the crucial touch, the ball ended up in the net, the officials missed that he was in the square before the ball was played to him and wrongly allowed the goal. Would there be grounds for a replay because the winning goal was illegal? Of course not. A ref's error. Unfortunate for Crokes, but one of those things.
This.
So a team can fire on as many players as they want and its up to the ref to sort out? Lack of responsibility from crokes is unreal
It is up to the referee to referee. He made an error, quite a big one, but it had no material impact on the result. Bench the referee and get on with it - too much sorted out at committee l
you cant say it had no material impact o the result though.
Who has responsibility for making sure a substituted player leaves the field?
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2023, 12:33:41 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on January 28, 2023, 12:05:45 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on January 28, 2023, 11:48:54 AM
Quote from: Hound on January 28, 2023, 08:54:52 AM
Quote from: WT4E on January 28, 2023, 12:23:10 AM
Can't see how kilmacud can object
Their argument is they did nothing wrong.
They advised the officials they wanted to make the substitution.
The officials allowed the sub to come on.
The officials allowed the game to re-start without allowing time for Mullin to go off (or for anyone to tell Mullin that he was going off).
The officials were notified of their error and did not order a retake.
Just a refereeing mistake. One of those things. Unfortunate for Glen, but the rule everyone quotes is for when a club puts an extra player on without the permission of the officials. You can't penalise Crokes for the officials making a mistake.
That's how they can, and are, objecting.
During the 6 seconds of play where Crokes had 16 on the pitch, the Glen full back had a great chance to deflect the ball into the net, but missed. Imagine an alternative scenario where it was 15 v 15, and the full back got the crucial touch, the ball ended up in the net, the officials missed that he was in the square before the ball was played to him and wrongly allowed the goal. Would there be grounds for a replay because the winning goal was illegal? Of course not. A ref's error. Unfortunate for Crokes, but one of those things.
This.
So a team can fire on as many players as they want and its up to the ref to sort out? Lack of responsibility from crokes is unreal
It is up to the referee to referee. He made an error, quite a big one, but it had no material impact on the result. Bench the referee and get on with it - too much sorted out at committee l
Even if the ref was at fault there was still an extra man on the line.
It's like the Thierry Henry goal. You are not allowed to score with an arm or a hand in soccer but ....
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 28, 2023, 12:55:24 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2023, 12:33:41 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on January 28, 2023, 12:05:45 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on January 28, 2023, 11:48:54 AM
Quote from: Hound on January 28, 2023, 08:54:52 AM
Quote from: WT4E on January 28, 2023, 12:23:10 AM
Can't see how kilmacud can object
Their argument is they did nothing wrong.
They advised the officials they wanted to make the substitution.
The officials allowed the sub to come on.
The officials allowed the game to re-start without allowing time for Mullin to go off (or for anyone to tell Mullin that he was going off).
The officials were notified of their error and did not order a retake.
Just a refereeing mistake. One of those things. Unfortunate for Glen, but the rule everyone quotes is for when a club puts an extra player on without the permission of the officials. You can't penalise Crokes for the officials making a mistake.
That's how they can, and are, objecting.
During the 6 seconds of play where Crokes had 16 on the pitch, the Glen full back had a great chance to deflect the ball into the net, but missed. Imagine an alternative scenario where it was 15 v 15, and the full back got the crucial touch, the ball ended up in the net, the officials missed that he was in the square before the ball was played to him and wrongly allowed the goal. Would there be grounds for a replay because the winning goal was illegal? Of course not. A ref's error. Unfortunate for Crokes, but one of those things.
This.
So a team can fire on as many players as they want and its up to the ref to sort out? Lack of responsibility from crokes is unreal
It is up to the referee to referee. He made an error, quite a big one, but it had no material impact on the result. Bench the referee and get on with it - too much sorted out at committee l
you cant say it had no material impact o the result though.
Who has responsibility for making sure a substituted player leaves the field?
It's a simple enough process, linesman raises flag and takes it down once player leaves pitch, you see it week on week and the ref restarts game
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 28, 2023, 12:55:24 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2023, 12:33:41 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on January 28, 2023, 12:05:45 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on January 28, 2023, 11:48:54 AM
Quote from: Hound on January 28, 2023, 08:54:52 AM
Quote from: WT4E on January 28, 2023, 12:23:10 AM
Can't see how kilmacud can object
Their argument is they did nothing wrong.
They advised the officials they wanted to make the substitution.
The officials allowed the sub to come on.
The officials allowed the game to re-start without allowing time for Mullin to go off (or for anyone to tell Mullin that he was going off).
The officials were notified of their error and did not order a retake.
Just a refereeing mistake. One of those things. Unfortunate for Glen, but the rule everyone quotes is for when a club puts an extra player on without the permission of the officials. You can't penalise Crokes for the officials making a mistake.
That's how they can, and are, objecting.
During the 6 seconds of play where Crokes had 16 on the pitch, the Glen full back had a great chance to deflect the ball into the net, but missed. Imagine an alternative scenario where it was 15 v 15, and the full back got the crucial touch, the ball ended up in the net, the officials missed that he was in the square before the ball was played to him and wrongly allowed the goal. Would there be grounds for a replay because the winning goal was illegal? Of course not. A ref's error. Unfortunate for Crokes, but one of those things.
This.
So a team can fire on as many players as they want and its up to the ref to sort out? Lack of responsibility from crokes is unreal
It is up to the referee to referee. He made an error, quite a big one, but it had no material impact on the result. Bench the referee and get on with it - too much sorted out at committee l
you cant say it had no material impact o the result though.
Who has responsibility for making sure a substituted player leaves the field?
The ref and the linesman between them.
He went for a point and balooned it. An extra player on the pitch had no impact on his execution
Quote from: seafoid on January 28, 2023, 12:57:55 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2023, 12:33:41 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on January 28, 2023, 12:05:45 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on January 28, 2023, 11:48:54 AM
Quote from: Hound on January 28, 2023, 08:54:52 AM
Quote from: WT4E on January 28, 2023, 12:23:10 AM
Can't see how kilmacud can object
Their argument is they did nothing wrong.
They advised the officials they wanted to make the substitution.
The officials allowed the sub to come on.
The officials allowed the game to re-start without allowing time for Mullin to go off (or for anyone to tell Mullin that he was going off).
The officials were notified of their error and did not order a retake.
Just a refereeing mistake. One of those things. Unfortunate for Glen, but the rule everyone quotes is for when a club puts an extra player on without the permission of the officials. You can't penalise Crokes for the officials making a mistake.
That's how they can, and are, objecting.
During the 6 seconds of play where Crokes had 16 on the pitch, the Glen full back had a great chance to deflect the ball into the net, but missed. Imagine an alternative scenario where it was 15 v 15, and the full back got the crucial touch, the ball ended up in the net, the officials missed that he was in the square before the ball was played to him and wrongly allowed the goal. Would there be grounds for a replay because the winning goal was illegal? Of course not. A ref's error. Unfortunate for Crokes, but one of those things.
This.
So a team can fire on as many players as they want and its up to the ref to sort out? Lack of responsibility from crokes is unreal
It is up to the referee to referee. He made an error, quite a big one, but it had no material impact on the result. Bench the referee and get on with it - too much sorted out at committee l
Even if the ref was at fault there was still an extra man on the line.
It's like the Thierry Henry goal. You are not allowed to score with an arm or a hand in soccer but ....
And soccer brought in var to try and eliminate those match official errors. There was no replay.
Refereeing errors happen. We can't go to committee every time the press go to town on one.
And I despise Crokes. Everything that is wrong with Gaelic games in one horrible club.
"An extra player on the pitch had no impact on his execution"
KC lost last year's final via a goal at the death.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYui7_rrWyk
The extra man wasn't placed at a random spot around the pitch. He was standing on the goal line.
why was he there ? Admiring the painting of the posts ?
If he hadn't been there would KC have had 2 or 3 on the line? Would Wattys have done what they did or lobbed the ball in ?
Would KC have panicked like last year ?
Answers on a postcard
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2023, 01:12:26 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 28, 2023, 12:57:55 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2023, 12:33:41 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on January 28, 2023, 12:05:45 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on January 28, 2023, 11:48:54 AM
Quote from: Hound on January 28, 2023, 08:54:52 AM
Quote from: WT4E on January 28, 2023, 12:23:10 AM
Can't see how kilmacud can object
Their argument is they did nothing wrong.
They advised the officials they wanted to make the substitution.
The officials allowed the sub to come on.
The officials allowed the game to re-start without allowing time for Mullin to go off (or for anyone to tell Mullin that he was going off).
The officials were notified of their error and did not order a retake.
Just a refereeing mistake. One of those things. Unfortunate for Glen, but the rule everyone quotes is for when a club puts an extra player on without the permission of the officials. You can't penalise Crokes for the officials making a mistake.
That's how they can, and are, objecting.
During the 6 seconds of play where Crokes had 16 on the pitch, the Glen full back had a great chance to deflect the ball into the net, but missed. Imagine an alternative scenario where it was 15 v 15, and the full back got the crucial touch, the ball ended up in the net, the officials missed that he was in the square before the ball was played to him and wrongly allowed the goal. Would there be grounds for a replay because the winning goal was illegal? Of course not. A ref's error. Unfortunate for Crokes, but one of those things.
This.
So a team can fire on as many players as they want and its up to the ref to sort out? Lack of responsibility from crokes is unreal
It is up to the referee to referee. He made an error, quite a big one, but it had no material impact on the result. Bench the referee and get on with it - too much sorted out at committee l
Even if the ref was at fault there was still an extra man on the line.
It's like the Thierry Henry goal. You are not allowed to score with an arm or a hand in soccer but ....
And soccer brought in var to try and eliminate those match official errors. There was no replay.
Refereeing errors happen. We can't go to committee every time the press go to town on one.
And I despise Crokes. Everything that is wrong with Gaelic games in one horrible club.
It's a mess.
The RTE GAA podcast is good this week. The problem is much bigger than what happened last Sunday
https://www.rte.ie/radio/podcasts/22203884-lee-keegan-and-peter-canavan-on-club-final-fallout/
Quote from: seafoid on January 28, 2023, 01:17:42 PM
"An extra player on the pitch had no impact on his execution"
KC lost last year's final via a goal at the death.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYui7_rrWyk
The extra man wasn't placed at a random spot around the pitch. He was standing on the goal line.
why was he there ? Admiring the painting of the posts ?
If he hadn't been there would KC have had 2 or 3 on the line? Would Wattys have done what they did or lobbed the ball in ?
Would KC have panicked like last year ?
Answers on a postcard
He might as well been admiring the paint work as he was on the other post so not even close to the play
Doesn't matter who's fault it was, there 3 options for a course of action. Replay been sensible. Hell I lost a underage championship game because some names weren't in Irish, so whats the point having rules if no body bothers with them if it doesn't suit them. We see the way red card appeals have gone. With everybody happy their players get off even when they shouldn't, cause there gaps in the rulebook. We'll there no gaps on this one.
Will Glen accept the result?
Quote from: seafoid on January 28, 2023, 01:17:42 PM
"An extra player on the pitch had no impact on his execution"
KC lost last year's final via a goal at the death.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYui7_rrWyk
The extra man wasn't placed at a random spot around the pitch. He was standing on the goal line.
why was he there ? Admiring the painting of the posts ?
If he hadn't been there would KC have had 2 or 3 on the line? Would Wattys have done what they did or lobbed the ball in ?
Would KC have panicked like last year ?
Answers on a postcard
the amount of players on the line would have been the same regardless.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2023, 01:36:44 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 28, 2023, 01:17:42 PM
"An extra player on the pitch had no impact on his execution"
KC lost last year's final via a goal at the death.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYui7_rrWyk
The extra man wasn't placed at a random spot around the pitch. He was standing on the goal line.
why was he there ? Admiring the painting of the posts ?
If he hadn't been there would KC have had 2 or 3 on the line? Would Wattys have done what they did or lobbed the ball in ?
Would KC have panicked like last year ?
Answers on a postcard
the amount of players on the line would have been the same regardless.
And less players surrounding McGuckian, your point is ridiculous.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2023, 01:36:44 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 28, 2023, 01:17:42 PM
"An extra player on the pitch had no impact on his execution"
KC lost last year's final via a goal at the death.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYui7_rrWyk
The extra man wasn't placed at a random spot around the pitch. He was standing on the goal line.
why was he there ? Admiring the painting of the posts ?
If he hadn't been there would KC have had 2 or 3 on the line? Would Wattys have done what they did or lobbed the ball in ?
Would KC have panicked like last year ?
Answers on a postcard
the amount of players on the line would have been the same regardless.
If 3 are on the line there are 12 outfield.
Wattys have 1 kicker and 14 outfield
The dynamics are very different with 16 v 15
Quote from: seafoid on January 28, 2023, 01:57:09 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2023, 01:36:44 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 28, 2023, 01:17:42 PM
"An extra player on the pitch had no impact on his execution"
KC lost last year's final via a goal at the death.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYui7_rrWyk
The extra man wasn't placed at a random spot around the pitch. He was standing on the goal line.
why was he there ? Admiring the painting of the posts ?
If he hadn't been there would KC have had 2 or 3 on the line? Would Wattys have done what they did or lobbed the ball in ?
Would KC have panicked like last year ?
Answers on a postcard
the amount of players on the line would have been the same regardless.
If 3 are on the line there are 12 outfield.
Wattys have 1 kicker and 14 outfield
The dynamics are very different with 16 v 15
So did the Glen players know there was 16 active players?
Quote from: tyrone08 on January 28, 2023, 12:05:45 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on January 28, 2023, 11:48:54 AM
Quote from: Hound on January 28, 2023, 08:54:52 AM
Quote from: WT4E on January 28, 2023, 12:23:10 AM
Can't see how kilmacud can object
Their argument is they did nothing wrong.
They advised the officials they wanted to make the substitution.
The officials allowed the sub to come on.
The officials allowed the game to re-start without allowing time for Mullin to go off (or for anyone to tell Mullin that he was going off).
The officials were notified of their error and did not order a retake.
Just a refereeing mistake. One of those things. Unfortunate for Glen, but the rule everyone quotes is for when a club puts an extra player on without the permission of the officials. You can't penalise Crokes for the officials making a mistake.
That's how they can, and are, objecting.
During the 6 seconds of play where Crokes had 16 on the pitch, the Glen full back had a great chance to deflect the ball into the net, but missed. Imagine an alternative scenario where it was 15 v 15, and the full back got the crucial touch, the ball ended up in the net, the officials missed that he was in the square before the ball was played to him and wrongly allowed the goal. Would there be grounds for a replay because the winning goal was illegal? Of course not. A ref's error. Unfortunate for Crokes, but one of those things.
This.
So a team can fire on as many players as they want and its up to the ref to sort out? Lack of responsibility from crokes is unreal
Hell no! If you fire players on without permission from the officials, and the match goes on without the officials noticing, then you forfeit the match. But that's not what happened last weekend.
Doubt myself there will be a replay at this stage. What a mess.
Think it also shows major flaw in timekeeping in the game and the totally random management of it by officials and how easily abused it can be by teams. Had the 16 player thing not happened it's very likely ref would have blown up on a Glenn wide but would have played on after kick out on Glenn scoring a goal.
There's 40 seconds of play there that can be wound down on a kick out if it suits team in possession.
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 28, 2023, 04:01:03 PM
Doubt myself there will be a replay at this stage. What a mess.
Think it also shows major flaw in timekeeping in the game and the totally random management of it by officials and how easily abused it can be by teams. Had the 16 player thing not happened it's very likely ref would have blown up on a Glenn wide but would have played on after kick out on Glenn scoring a goal.
There's 40 seconds of play there that can be wound down on a kick out if it suits team in possession.
They have to go through the process first. We can't say anything definitively at this stage.
If the GAA are serious about the rules there should be a replay.
Probably would be a replay but they are likely afraid of Crokes and the money/power they have. Also the Dublin media seem fully behind them, Philly McMahon calling out Glen today said they should be embarrassed.
Not sure if McMahon has much credibility he's running his mouth all the time now about stuff he knows nothing about. Irish media allow him the platform to attack Glen.
Same lad was never too ashamed of some of the shit he used to spout at the Mayo lads.
It's fair to say there are motormouths up and down the country, Joe likes a good aul chat
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 28, 2023, 02:31:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 28, 2023, 01:57:09 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2023, 01:36:44 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 28, 2023, 01:17:42 PM
"An extra player on the pitch had no impact on his execution"
KC lost last year's final via a goal at the death.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYui7_rrWyk
The extra man wasn't placed at a random spot around the pitch. He was standing on the goal line.
why was he there ? Admiring the painting of the posts ?
If he hadn't been there would KC have had 2 or 3 on the line? Would Wattys have done what they did or lobbed the ball in ?
Would KC have panicked like last year ?
Answers on a postcard
the amount of players on the line would have been the same regardless.
If 3 are on the line there are 12 outfield.
Wattys have 1 kicker and 14 outfield
The dynamics are very different with 16 v 15
So did the Glen players know there was 16 active players?
Exactly. Was not a factor in the taking of the free
RTE reporting that both teams will take part in a meeting with the CCCC next week, following which a decision will be made.
https://www.rte.ie/sport/football/2023/0128/1352417-kilmacud-crokes-and-glen-to-attend-hearing-next-week/
GAA isn't the only sport with compliance issues.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/racing/2023/01/27/not-enough-trickling-down-from-racings-elite-to-sparrows-underneath/
One relates to professional race-day stewarding and the discrepancy between a professional industry being largely policed by well-meaning but unaccountable amateurs. Paying and equipping a panel of centrally-based professional stewards would be an important signal of intent.
Quote from: full moon on January 28, 2023, 05:15:02 PM
Probably would be a replay but they are likely afraid of Crokes and the money/power they have. Also the Dublin media seem fully behind them, Philly McMahon calling out Glen today said they should be embarrassed.
Not sure if McMahon has much credibility he's running his mouth all the time now about stuff he knows nothing about. Irish media allow him the platform to attack Glen.
I like McMahon, always have, but what have Glen to be embarrassed about?
FWIW I don't think there should be a replay. I think there was a series of mistakes, nothing deliberate by anyone. I don't believe Glen have done anything wrong at all. The GAA need to look at this tho and learn from it. Put something in place to make sure it doesn't happen again.
David Gough discussed it in an article and believe it or not each time I'm GAA we make substitutions there are extra men on the pitch every time.
Sub'd player has to come off at centre line before the new player comes on, ain't rocket science
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 29, 2023, 11:39:48 AM
David Gough discussed it in an article and believe it or not each time I'm GAA we make substitutions there are extra men on the pitch every time.
Sub'd player has to come off at centre line before the new player comes on, ain't rocket science
The plural of anecdote is not data. How many subbed players refuse to leave the pitch?
Quote from: seafoid on January 29, 2023, 12:12:03 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 29, 2023, 11:39:48 AM
David Gough discussed it in an article and believe it or not each time I'm GAA we make substitutions there are extra men on the pitch every time.
Sub'd player has to come off at centre line before the new player comes on, ain't rocket science
The plural of anecdote is not data. How many subbed players refuse to leave the pitch?
none
Even players that get 2 yellows stay on!
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 29, 2023, 10:56:50 AM
Quote from: full moon on January 28, 2023, 05:15:02 PM
Probably would be a replay but they are likely afraid of Crokes and the money/power they have. Also the Dublin media seem fully behind them, Philly McMahon calling out Glen today said they should be embarrassed.
Not sure if McMahon has much credibility he's running his mouth all the time now about stuff he knows nothing about. Irish media allow him the platform to attack Glen.
I like McMahon, always have, but what have Glen to be embarrassed about?
Running to committee as opposed to taking their beating
Philly should be more embarrassed being 8 points up in a AI club final and blowing it.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 29, 2023, 01:04:05 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 29, 2023, 10:56:50 AM
Quote from: full moon on January 28, 2023, 05:15:02 PM
Probably would be a replay but they are likely afraid of Crokes and the money/power they have. Also the Dublin media seem fully behind them, Philly McMahon calling out Glen today said they should be embarrassed.
Not sure if McMahon has much credibility he's running his mouth all the time now about stuff he knows nothing about. Irish media allow him the platform to attack Glen.
I like McMahon, always have, but what have Glen to be embarrassed about?
Running to committee as opposed to taking their beating
Catch a grip.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 29, 2023, 01:04:05 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 29, 2023, 10:56:50 AM
Quote from: full moon on January 28, 2023, 05:15:02 PM
Probably would be a replay but they are likely afraid of Crokes and the money/power they have. Also the Dublin media seem fully behind them, Philly McMahon calling out Glen today said they should be embarrassed.
Not sure if McMahon has much credibility he's running his mouth all the time now about stuff he knows nothing about. Irish media allow him the platform to attack Glen.
I like McMahon, always have, but what have Glen to be embarrassed about?
Running to committee as opposed to taking their beating
Absolute nonsense. Glen have nothing to be embarrassed about. They've done nothing wrong at all here
100% on the officials. The Club Champions should not be punished because the officials made a slight error on the day. Ireland didn't get a replay with France after Henry's handball.
It's either compliance or a culture war. Which is it ?
Quote from: seafoid on January 29, 2023, 05:46:41 PM
It's either compliance or a culture war. Which is it ?
Spot on.
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on January 29, 2023, 05:26:09 PM
100% on the officials. The Club Champions should not be punished because the officials made a slight error on the day. Ireland didn't get a replay with France after Henry's handball.
KC get away with this without sanction, and through the GAA's wilful blindness in following
their own rules, then there is absolutely no deterrent on future transgressions -- ah sure, what's the worst could happen.
Taking their beating. Why, the other team basically cheated. At this stage I say they afraid play Glen in a replay, as I think Glen would beat them.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on January 29, 2023, 05:55:54 PM
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on January 29, 2023, 05:26:09 PM
100% on the officials. The Club Champions should not be punished because the officials made a slight error on the day. Ireland didn't get a replay with France after Henry's handball.
KC get away with this without sanction, and through the GAA's wilful blindness in following their own rules, then there is absolutely no deterrent on future transgressions -- ah sure, what's the worst could happen.
I can't see that happening . The story broke through into the general population. Everyone wants to know the next instalment.
I couldn't see you get away with an extra man on at the end on the line, in a important final in any other sport, why should the GAA be any different.
I think KC will take their beating and agree to a replay, in line with the rules. If they are good enough they will win it. If they aren't they won't.
Quote from: seafoid on January 29, 2023, 06:44:38 PM
I think KC will take their beating and agree to a replay, in line with the rules. If they are good enough they will win it. If they aren't they won't.
The outcomes are easy to understand you have forfeit Fine and Replay..
Seems both parties will chat and maybe iron something out
Maurice Deegan very funny on Newstalk doing his best not to blame the ref even though it's clearly his fault. The ref included no mention of the 16th man in his report. What a complete spanner.
Deegan explained the process of a substitution and a key aspect is the ref stops play to allow the sub to come on (after he has been notified that the team have given the appropriate paperwork to the sideline official). Then the ref does not re-start play until the process is completed. But in this case he allowed play to commence before the process was completed. Kilmacud had no opportunity to tell Mullin that he was to come off.
Just like the ref missed the blatant square ball in the last play, it's a ref error.
Pauric Joyce had an interesting take on it after last night's game. When asked about Shane Walsh and his travels (the life of a student) he thought there could be appeals and counter appeals and the game could be 4-5 weeks away.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 29, 2023, 06:48:15 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 29, 2023, 06:44:38 PM
I think KC will take their beating and agree to a replay, in line with the rules. If they are good enough they will win it. If they aren't they won't.
The outcomes are easy to understand you have forfeit Fine and Replay..
Seems both parties will chat and maybe iron something out
Neither team wants a replay. Best team on the day won and everyone knows that. I'm hearing strong indications that the agreement they'll reach is that Walsh will play for Glen next year, but Crokes will continue to cover his rent 😜
Quote from: Hound on January 29, 2023, 06:56:08 PM
Maurice Deegan very funny on Newstalk doing his best not to blame the ref even though it's clearly his fault. The ref included no mention of the 16th man in his report. What a complete spanner.
Deegan explained the process of a substitution and a key aspect is the ref stops play to allow the sub to come on (after he has been notified that the team have given the appropriate paperwork to the sideline official). Then the ref does not re-start play until the process is completed. But in this case he allowed play to commence before the process was completed. Kilmacud had no opportunity to tell Mullin that he was to come off.
Just like the ref missed the blatant square ball in the last play (and no penalty as foul committed outside square), it's a ref error.
The ref and 4th official made the errors. KC did not cheat. As a result of the ref and 4th official errors they restarted the game when KC had more than 15 on the pitch. If the ref and 4th official did their jobs correctly this would not be an issue.
As the ref and 4th official caused the issue, in my opinion the result will stand and should stand.
You talk about missing a square ball, sure the ref let go a blatant push in the back of McGuckin in the penalty area, in the play where Glass ended up taking a quick pot shot. He gave a penalty that never was. I think he was quite lenient on Crokes.
Result will not stand, simply because in the rulebook for the infringement the penalty is conceding the game, fine, replay. One too much, the other too light a punishment. Doesn't matter who's fault it is, that what it states.
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 29, 2023, 07:00:30 PM
The ref and 4th official made the errors. KC did not cheat. As a result of the ref and 4th official errors they restarted the game when KC had more than 15 on the pitch. If the ref and 4th official did their jobs correctly this would not be an issue.
As the ref and 4th official caused the issue, in my opinion the result will stand and should stand.
spot on, the result should stand, best team on the day won. Officials made a mistake, learn from it and try to put measures in place to ensure it doesn't happen again.
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 29, 2023, 07:00:30 PM
The ref and 4th official made the errors. KC did not cheat. As a result of the ref and 4th official errors they restarted the game when KC had more than 15 on the pitch. If the ref and 4th official did their jobs correctly this would not be an issue.
As the ref and 4th official caused the issue, in my opinion the result will stand and should stand.
Who ever said KC cheated? Errors by officials have previously resulted in much harsher penalties against teams (R. Brennan knows all about that with Dunboyne). So what's the difference. Either rules are to be adhered to or they are not.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 29, 2023, 07:10:13 PM
Result will not stand, simply because in the rulebook for the infringement the penalty is conceding the game, fine, replay. One too much, the other too light a punishment. Doesn't matter who's fault it is, that what it states.
This guy gets it.
Quote from: RedHand88 on January 29, 2023, 07:41:43 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 29, 2023, 07:10:13 PM
Result will not stand, simply because in the rulebook for the infringement the penalty is conceding the game, fine, replay. One too much, the other too light a punishment. Doesn't matter who's fault it is, that what it states.
This guy gets it.
Yeah 3 options, I can guess the answer to that and both Glen and Crokes will agree to it. So put it to bed once it's agreed
Penalties might work
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 29, 2023, 07:10:13 PM
Result will not stand, simply because in the rulebook for the infringement the penalty is conceding the game, fine, replay. One too much, the other too light a punishment. Doesn't matter who's fault it is, that what it states.
This is my first comment on this
As stated above the penalty is conceding the game, fine OR a replay
On what grounds do they decide which penalty to issue ?
I mean 3 penalties for 1 infringement
You either break the rule or you don't
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on January 29, 2023, 08:18:57 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 29, 2023, 07:10:13 PM
Result will not stand, simply because in the rulebook for the infringement the penalty is conceding the game, fine, replay. One too much, the other too light a punishment. Doesn't matter who's fault it is, that what it states.
This is my first comment on this
As stated above the penalty is conceding the game, fine OR a replay
On what grounds do they decide which penalty to issue ?
I mean 3 penalties for 1 infringement
You either break the rule or you don't
I suppose it depends on the level of the offence. Maybe if Mullin had actually caught the ball or made a block on the line a forfeit would have been in order, or if it
could (not sure how though) be proven that KC intentionally played with an extra man. In this case a replay is probably fair. Maybe in Mannions case a fine would be a applicable for him being away from the action but still on the field.
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 29, 2023, 08:33:58 PM
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on January 29, 2023, 08:18:57 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 29, 2023, 07:10:13 PM
Result will not stand, simply because in the rulebook for the infringement the penalty is conceding the game, fine, replay. One too much, the other too light a punishment. Doesn't matter who's fault it is, that what it states.
This is my first comment on this
As stated above the penalty is conceding the game, fine OR a replay
On what grounds do they decide which penalty to issue ?
I mean 3 penalties for 1 infringement
You either break the rule or you don't
I suppose it depends on the level of the offence. Maybe if Mullin had actually caught the ball or made a block on the line a forfeit would have been in order, or if it could (not sure how though) be proven that KC intentionally played with an extra man. In this case a replay is probably fair. Maybe in Mannions case a fine would be a applicable for him being away from the action but still on the field.
Are we fining all clubs that have lads standing over the line now? Wow
Will it go all the way to the DRA ?
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 29, 2023, 07:00:30 PM
The ref and 4th official made the errors. KC did not cheat. As a result of the ref and 4th official errors they restarted the game when KC had more than 15 on the pitch. If the ref and 4th official did their jobs correctly this would not be an issue.
As the ref and 4th official caused the issue, in my opinion the result will stand and should stand.
Where is that add on in the rule book?
This is a decent analysis
https://twitter.com/TheSundayGame/status/1619835193367437322
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 30, 2023, 08:02:41 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 29, 2023, 07:00:30 PM
The ref and 4th official made the errors. KC did not cheat. As a result of the ref and 4th official errors they restarted the game when KC had more than 15 on the pitch. If the ref and 4th official did their jobs correctly this would not be an issue.
As the ref and 4th official caused the issue, in my opinion the result will stand and should stand.
Where is that add on in the rule book?
what 'add on'?
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 30, 2023, 08:08:35 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 30, 2023, 08:02:41 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 29, 2023, 07:00:30 PM
The ref and 4th official made the errors. KC did not cheat. As a result of the ref and 4th official errors they restarted the game when KC had more than 15 on the pitch. If the ref and 4th official did their jobs correctly this would not be an issue.
As the ref and 4th official caused the issue, in my opinion the result will stand and should stand.
Where is that add on in the rule book?
what 'add on'?
The states the penalties for having more than 15 players on the pitch. Where is the add on that states if it is the official's part there will be no sanction.
By the way, I dont think there should be a reply. I think there was honest mistakes on the officials parts, on KC's part and the players part. I do think the GAA can learn from this though and put in place, or clarify, rules to ensure this doesn't happen again.
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 30, 2023, 08:26:46 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 30, 2023, 08:08:35 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 30, 2023, 08:02:41 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 29, 2023, 07:00:30 PM
The ref and 4th official made the errors. KC did not cheat. As a result of the ref and 4th official errors they restarted the game when KC had more than 15 on the pitch. If the ref and 4th official did their jobs correctly this would not be an issue.
As the ref and 4th official caused the issue, in my opinion the result will stand and should stand.
Where is that add on in the rule book?
what 'add on'?
The states the penalties for having more than 15 players on the pitch. Where is the add on that states if it is the official's part there will be no sanction.
By the way, I dont think there should be a reply. I think there was honest mistakes on the officials parts, on KC's part and the players part. I do think the GAA can learn from this though and put in place, or clarify, rules to ensure this doesn't happen again.
I didn't say there was no penalty. I said the result will and should stand. However, I am no expert on the rules etc. so if there is a fine, even. a nominal fine I don't know if there are ways around that as the ref and 4th official were at fault here.
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 30, 2023, 08:08:35 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 30, 2023, 08:02:41 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 29, 2023, 07:00:30 PM
The ref and 4th official made the errors. KC did not cheat. As a result of the ref and 4th official errors they restarted the game when KC had more than 15 on the pitch. If the ref and 4th official did their jobs correctly this would not be an issue.
As the ref and 4th official caused the issue, in my opinion the result will stand and should stand.
Where is that add on in the rule book?
what 'add on'?
Your view point is logical and can understand where you're coming from but thats not whats in the rulebook!
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 30, 2023, 08:47:13 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 30, 2023, 08:08:35 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 30, 2023, 08:02:41 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 29, 2023, 07:00:30 PM
The ref and 4th official made the errors. KC did not cheat. As a result of the ref and 4th official errors they restarted the game when KC had more than 15 on the pitch. If the ref and 4th official did their jobs correctly this would not be an issue.
As the ref and 4th official caused the issue, in my opinion the result will stand and should stand.
Where is that add on in the rule book?
what 'add on'?
Your view point is logical and can understand where you're coming from but thats not whats in the rulebook!
does the rule not mention 'circumstance'.?
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 30, 2023, 08:36:20 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 30, 2023, 08:26:46 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 30, 2023, 08:08:35 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 30, 2023, 08:02:41 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 29, 2023, 07:00:30 PM
The ref and 4th official made the errors. KC did not cheat. As a result of the ref and 4th official errors they restarted the game when KC had more than 15 on the pitch. If the ref and 4th official did their jobs correctly this would not be an issue.
As the ref and 4th official caused the issue, in my opinion the result will stand and should stand.
Where is that add on in the rule book?
what 'add on'?
The states the penalties for having more than 15 players on the pitch. Where is the add on that states if it is the official's part there will be no sanction.
By the way, I dont think there should be a reply. I think there was honest mistakes on the officials parts, on KC's part and the players part. I do think the GAA can learn from this though and put in place, or clarify, rules to ensure this doesn't happen again.
I didn't say there was no penalty. I said the result will and should stand. However, I am no expert on the rules etc. so if there is a fine, even. a nominal fine I don't know if there are ways around that as the ref and 4th official were at fault here.
Fair enough. I agree about the result. i dont think the GAA have covered themselves in glory here by making Glen object when there was a clear breach of their rules. As I said, hopefully there will be something that comes out of this as a result.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 29, 2023, 08:46:07 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 29, 2023, 08:33:58 PM
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on January 29, 2023, 08:18:57 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 29, 2023, 07:10:13 PM
Result will not stand, simply because in the rulebook for the infringement the penalty is conceding the game, fine, replay. One too much, the other too light a punishment. Doesn't matter who's fault it is, that what it states.
This is my first comment on this
As stated above the penalty is conceding the game, fine OR a replay
On what grounds do they decide which penalty to issue ?
I mean 3 penalties for 1 infringement
You either break the rule or you don't
I suppose it depends on the level of the offence. Maybe if Mullin had actually caught the ball or made a block on the line a forfeit would have been in order, or if it could (not sure how though) be proven that KC intentionally played with an extra man. In this case a replay is probably fair. Maybe in Mannions case a fine would be a applicable for him being away from the action but still on the field.
Are we fining all clubs that have lads standing over the line now? Wow
At IC level counties are fined all the time for "pitch encroachments" or they used to be.
Heck, teams were fined if players didn't have their socks pulled up in the parade.
Evidently everyone here is still unsure who's ultimately responsible for ensuring a team has only the 15 players on the field..
I'd be surprised by the way CP interprets the rules that it isn't the team themselves rather than the match officials.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 29, 2023, 08:46:07 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 29, 2023, 08:33:58 PM
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on January 29, 2023, 08:18:57 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 29, 2023, 07:10:13 PM
Result will not stand, simply because in the rulebook for the infringement the penalty is conceding the game, fine, replay. One too much, the other too light a punishment. Doesn't matter who's fault it is, that what it states.
This is my first comment on this
As stated above the penalty is conceding the game, fine OR a replay
On what grounds do they decide which penalty to issue ?
I mean 3 penalties for 1 infringement
You either break the rule or you don't
I suppose it depends on the level of the offence. Maybe if Mullin had actually caught the ball or made a block on the line a forfeit would have been in order, or if it could (not sure how though) be proven that KC intentionally played with an extra man. In this case a replay is probably fair. Maybe in Mannions case a fine would be a applicable for him being away from the action but still on the field.
Are we fining all clubs that have lads standing over the line now? Wow
Yeah, this has been happening for years, at least at Ulster club level onwards.
So where's this replay everyone said was going to happen?
Quote from: oakleaflad on January 30, 2023, 09:31:50 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 29, 2023, 08:46:07 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 29, 2023, 08:33:58 PM
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on January 29, 2023, 08:18:57 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 29, 2023, 07:10:13 PM
Result will not stand, simply because in the rulebook for the infringement the penalty is conceding the game, fine, replay. One too much, the other too light a punishment. Doesn't matter who's fault it is, that what it states.
This is my first comment on this
As stated above the penalty is conceding the game, fine OR a replay
On what grounds do they decide which penalty to issue ?
I mean 3 penalties for 1 infringement
You either break the rule or you don't
I suppose it depends on the level of the offence. Maybe if Mullin had actually caught the ball or made a block on the line a forfeit would have been in order, or if it could (not sure how though) be proven that KC intentionally played with an extra man. In this case a replay is probably fair. Maybe in Mannions case a fine would be a applicable for him being away from the action but still on the field.
Are we fining all clubs that have lads standing over the line now? Wow
Yeah, this has been happening for years, at least at Ulster club level onwards.
At club level normal, not at this end, even though the same rules apply throughout
I remember getting a list as manager when we were in Ulster and then onwards to Croke, the list of things you'll get fined for is so petty, it was a money making racket, as mentioned socks up on parade, only the squad numbered on the pitch even though you had a larger squad to work with.
Quote from: trailer on January 30, 2023, 11:40:11 AM
So where's this replay everyone said was going to happen?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPo5wWmKEaI
Quote from: trailer on January 30, 2023, 11:40:11 AM
So where's this replay everyone said was going to happen?
Meeting between Glen and KC tonight isnt there?
I mo thuarim this is the best summary and how the CCCC are likely to see things. I can't see KC bringing in the culture war analysis and winning a fine.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/23/glen-express-disappointment-at-gaas-failure-to-review-breach-of-rules/
A rematch the likely resolution. Although Mullin had no material impact on the play that unfolded – he didn't touch the ball – there is a view that it's impossible to infer what would have happened had the correct number of players been on the field.
The calculation then is the balance of the contest, which at the time was a one-score match.
Fines have been levied previously when matches were essentially decided on the scoreboard but not when the result was still in doubt.
Referees' decisions are not disputable when it comes to match outcomes even if a mistake has been made. That was established by the DRA in the matter of Fr Casey's GAA club in Limerick back in 2005.
That does not however apply to situations like this, breach of match regulations, when the primary mistake is by the team itself in not making sure that they don't have too many players on the field.
The question going forward is do we start replaying games when there are faults made by officials? More serious ones that this happen all the time.
Quote from: nrico2006 on January 30, 2023, 12:31:58 PM
The question going forward is do we start replaying games when there are faults made by officials? More serious ones that this happen all the time.
The issue here is that the rule book actually covers what happened with penalties stipulated. There is nothing to say there will be penalties if a ref doesn't give a penalty when he should or sends someone off wrongly etc.
Quote from: nrico2006 on January 30, 2023, 12:31:58 PM
The question going forward is do we start replaying games when there are faults made by officials? More serious ones that this happen all the time.
List the first 50 then
Quote from: nrico2006 on January 30, 2023, 12:31:58 PM
The question going forward is do we start replaying games when there are faults made by officials? More serious ones that this happen all the time.
Most will be hard to prove unless the game is taped and even at that, we could argue all day over whether someone should have been red card, a penalty should have been given etc, etc.
Quote from: trailer on January 30, 2023, 11:40:11 AM
So where's this replay everyone said was going to happen?
Don't come over yourself yet. Glen put in an appeal, KC had 3 days to object and then this evening both parties are invited to a meeting. Time
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on January 29, 2023, 05:55:54 PM
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on January 29, 2023, 05:26:09 PM
100% on the officials. The Club Champions should not be punished because the officials made a slight error on the day. Ireland didn't get a replay with France after Henry's handball.
KC get away with this without sanction, and through the GAA's wilful blindness in following their own rules, then there is absolutely no deterrent on future transgressions -- ah sure, what's the worst could happen.
It's referee error. It happens
It's one meeting I wouldn't want to be involved in. We talking a couple of committee members and a couple of senior players representing each (Crokes sending 3 players) ?
Quote from: JoG2 on January 30, 2023, 01:19:12 PM
It's one meeting I wouldn't want to be involved in. We talking a couple of committee members and a couple of senior players representing each (Crokes sending 3 players) ?
Wonder will they send Walsh and Mullin lol
Shane Walsh supposedly in Australia.
If it had finished level, was the plan for extra-time and penalties, or a replay?
Appparently Mullin is going to stand at the door of the meeting room although he won't be a member of the 3 person representation.
Quote from: seafoid on January 30, 2023, 01:27:41 PM
Appparently Mullin is going to stand at the door of the meeting room although he won't be a member of the 3 person representation.
But the ref will blow his whistle and allow him to come on in... providing he gave the slip to the 4th official that is
Quote from: Hound on January 30, 2023, 01:25:31 PM
Shane Walsh supposedly in Australia.
If it had finished level, was the plan for extra-time and penalties, or a replay?
extra time I believe.
Expected submissions
KC - 90 minutes :
Anti Dublin bias
Hundreds of matches have extra players
The players can't give any more
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hat1Hc9SNwE&t=113s
It's the ref's fault
It didn't change the result
It was only 30 seconds
He didn't touch the ball
We won the match, bud
Watty Grahams- 1 minute
The Rules stipulate 15 players
Will Bronagh be delivering the submission ?
Quote from: seafoid on January 30, 2023, 06:46:12 PM
Expected submissions
KC - 90 minutes :
Anti Dublin bias
Hundreds of matches have extra players
The players can't give any more
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hat1Hc9SNwE&t=113s
It's the ref's fault
It didn't change the result
It was only 30 seconds
He didn't touch the ball
We won the match, bud
Watty Grahams- 1 minute
The Rules stipulate 15 players
Will Bronagh be delivering the submission ?
Either way you'll have the popcorn, tissues and hand gel at the ready!!
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/30/kilmacud-and-glen-to-be-informed-of-cccc-decision-on-tuesday/
GAA disciplinary officials will inform Kilmacud Crokes and Glen on Tuesday of their proposal regarding the fate of the controversial All-Ireland club senior football final.
A meeting of the GAA's Central Competitions Control Committee (CCCC) and representatives of both clubs took place at Croke Park on Monday night.
The CCCC listened to all sides but did not give a decision on the night, instead telling the clubs they would return on Tuesday having considered all the points raised at the summit.
Clocking up the odd mileage expenses there.
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 30, 2023, 12:35:24 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on January 30, 2023, 12:31:58 PM
The question going forward is do we start replaying games when there are faults made by officials? More serious ones that this happen all the time.
The issue here is that the rule book actually covers what happened with penalties stipulated. There is nothing to say there will be penalties if a ref doesn't give a penalty when he should or sends someone off wrongly etc.
It is irrelevant that Crokes did nothing wrong, the rule is clear about having only 15 players on the pitch, nevertheless the CCC have to examine the circumstances of that extra man being on the pitch. IMO it's clear enough that Glenn were disadvantaged by having to play against 16 players in that last play, however marginal that disadvantage
It's a proven fact that Crokes had 16 players, the circumstance of that only allow for 3 penalties, whether Crokes forfeit the game, a replay or a fine. Imo the fine is out of the question therefore it's likely a replay more than a forfeiture.
Quote from: Main Street on January 30, 2023, 11:46:09 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 30, 2023, 12:35:24 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on January 30, 2023, 12:31:58 PM
The question going forward is do we start replaying games when there are faults made by officials? More serious ones that this happen all the time.
The issue here is that the rule book actually covers what happened with penalties stipulated. There is nothing to say there will be penalties if a ref doesn't give a penalty when he should or sends someone off wrongly etc.
It is irrelevant that Crokes did nothing wrong, the rule is clear about having only 15 players on the pitch, nevertheless the CCC have to examine the circumstances of that extra man being on the pitch. IMO it's clear enough that Glenn were disadvantaged by having to play against 16 players in that last play, however marginal that disadvantage
It's a proven fact that Crokes had 16 players, the circumstance of that only allow for 3 penalties, whether Crokes forfeit the game, a replay or a fine. Imo the fine is out of the question therefore it's likely a replay more than a forfeiture.
why is the fine out of the question? the rule mentions 'circumstances . if Glen knew there was 16, why take the 45, why not wait until the ref did his job. the players didnt know there was the extra man. it didn't figured into the decision of the 45 to go short or the shot to go where it did IMO... I think fine is likely, maybe after some DRA involvement.
If Crokes admit that keeping Mullin on was deliberate a replay would be generous.
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 30, 2023, 11:54:29 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 30, 2023, 11:46:09 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 30, 2023, 12:35:24 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on January 30, 2023, 12:31:58 PM
The question going forward is do we start replaying games when there are faults made by officials? More serious ones that this happen all the time.
The issue here is that the rule book actually covers what happened with penalties stipulated. There is nothing to say there will be penalties if a ref doesn't give a penalty when he should or sends someone off wrongly etc.
It is irrelevant that Crokes did nothing wrong, the rule is clear about having only 15 players on the pitch, nevertheless the CCC have to examine the circumstances of that extra man being on the pitch. IMO it's clear enough that Glenn were disadvantaged by having to play against 16 players in that last play, however marginal that disadvantage
It's a proven fact that Crokes had 16 players, the circumstance of that only allow for 3 penalties, whether Crokes forfeit the game, a replay or a fine. Imo the fine is out of the question therefore it's likely a replay more than a forfeiture.
why is the fine out of the question? the rule mentions 'circumstances .
Crokes did nothing wrong, therefore there is no cause to fine them.
Quoteif Glen knew there was 16, why take the 45, why not wait until the ref did his job. the players didnt know there was the extra man. it didn't figured into the decision of the 45 to go short or the shot to go where it did IMO... I think fine is likely, maybe after some DRA involvement.
'If' is where your flight of fancy falls apart.
Quote from: Main Street on January 31, 2023, 12:07:04 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 30, 2023, 11:54:29 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 30, 2023, 11:46:09 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 30, 2023, 12:35:24 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on January 30, 2023, 12:31:58 PM
The question going forward is do we start replaying games when there are faults made by officials? More serious ones that this happen all the time.
The issue here is that the rule book actually covers what happened with penalties stipulated. There is nothing to say there will be penalties if a ref doesn't give a penalty when he should or sends someone off wrongly etc.
It is irrelevant that Crokes did nothing wrong, the rule is clear about having only 15 players on the pitch, nevertheless the CCC have to examine the circumstances of that extra man being on the pitch. IMO it's clear enough that Glenn were disadvantaged by having to play against 16 players in that last play, however marginal that disadvantage
It's a proven fact that Crokes had 16 players, the circumstance of that only allow for 3 penalties, whether Crokes forfeit the game, a replay or a fine. Imo the fine is out of the question therefore it's likely a replay more than a forfeiture.
why is the fine out of the question? the rule mentions 'circumstances .
Crokes did nothing wrong, therefore there is no cause to fine them.
Quoteif Glen knew there was 16, why take the 45, why not wait until the ref did his job. the players didnt know there was the extra man. it didn't figured into the decision of the 45 to go short or the shot to go where it did IMO... I think fine is likely, maybe after some DRA involvement.
'If' is where your flight of fancy falls apart.
if they did nothing wrong there is no cause for a replay or forfeit either but the rules require 1 so I think it will be a fine.
why would Glen disadvantage themselves and knowingly play against 16?
If this was 1st round of the Championship it would be replayed, no issue
Difficulty is it was a final, people feel shit for KC losing the cup and having to replay. Asterisk beside the win forever more no matter what happens
But the MAJOR thing that is constantly overlooked is this....Glen were 6 to 1 up....a penalty was given for a debatable foul.....but whether it was or it wasn't.. if was DEFO OUTSIDE THE BOX
That is the biggest and totally forgotten about scandal
Quote from: Gold on January 31, 2023, 12:25:47 AM
If this was 1st round of the Championship it would be replayed, no issue
Difficulty is it was a final, people feel shit for KC losing the cup and having to replay. Asterisk beside the win forever more no matter what happens
But the MAJOR thing that is constantly overlooked is this....Glen were 6 to 1 up....a penalty was given for a debatable foul.....but whether it was or it wasn't.. if was DEFO OUTSIDE THE BOX
That is the biggest and totally forgotten about scandal
another reffing error, I think scandal is a bit much though... that is a more common reffing issue then not making sure the subs happen correctly.
Looking forward to replay. Saturday week in Croke Park. Did I hear Shane Walsh is gone travelling?
Quote from: Gold on January 31, 2023, 12:25:47 AM
If this was 1st round of the Championship it would be replayed, no issue
Difficulty is it was a final, people feel shit for KC losing the cup and having to replay. Asterisk beside the win forever more no matter what happens
But the MAJOR thing that is constantly overlooked is this....Glen were 6 to 1 up....a penalty was given for a debatable foul.....but whether it was or it wasn't.. if was DEFO OUTSIDE THE BOX
That is the biggest and totally forgotten about scandal
In your head only and a few others on here. The record books will show they won and that's all that matters for the vast majority. Jealousy and bitterness against Walsh and the Dubs might make you put an asterisk there but a small minority will view it like that.
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 30, 2023, 11:54:29 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 30, 2023, 11:46:09 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 30, 2023, 12:35:24 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on January 30, 2023, 12:31:58 PM
The question going forward is do we start replaying games when there are faults made by officials? More serious ones that this happen all the time.
The issue here is that the rule book actually covers what happened with penalties stipulated. There is nothing to say there will be penalties if a ref doesn't give a penalty when he should or sends someone off wrongly etc.
It is irrelevant that Crokes did nothing wrong, the rule is clear about having only 15 players on the pitch, nevertheless the CCC have to examine the circumstances of that extra man being on the pitch. IMO it's clear enough that Glenn were disadvantaged by having to play against 16 players in that last play, however marginal that disadvantage
It's a proven fact that Crokes had 16 players, the circumstance of that only allow for 3 penalties, whether Crokes forfeit the game, a replay or a fine. Imo the fine is out of the question therefore it's likely a replay more than a forfeiture.
why is the fine out of the question? the rule mentions 'circumstances . if Glen knew there was 16, why take the 45, why not wait until the ref did his job. the players didnt know there was the extra man. it didn't figured into the decision of the 45 to go short or the shot to go where it did IMO... I think fine is likely, maybe after some DRA involvement.
Good point. If you accept for the sake of argument that Crokes did wrong (which as MR2 has explained and I agreed with, I don't accept, as I don't see anything they could have done differently to alert the player standing on the line that he was being taken off, given how quick the ref allowed the re-start)
But if you do, then the punishment depends on the "circumstances". So given the actual circumstances, is it possible to work out what was the most likely outcome?
Either the lads remaining on the line would have stood a little further away from each other to cover the gap left by Mullin, or more likely, an extra body would have dropped back, leaving one fewer body out the field.
The 45 was played short. It's reasonably clear that the 45 would have been taken short had Kilmacud only 15 men. Either Kilmacud would have had the same men in the same positions out the field, or one less man out there, either way a reasonable person would conclude the most likely scenario is the tactic would not have changed.
When the recipient received the ball, two Glen players immediately entered the square. The full back on the near side and another player on the far side. Hard to know why they did this, but not unusual in the heat of the moment, and really no reason they would do anything differently in the revised scenario.
Therefore, "in the circumstances", it was pretty much impossible for Glen to score a legal goal.
All probable outcomes equate to a shitshow for the GAA, especially from a PR point of view. So many what ifs, possible counter objections, difficulty with dates, county season started, players on long awaited holidays after long season....this could run for months. All the time the anti GAA brigade, especially the D4 rugger set, will be licking their lips.
The only way out for the GAA (not for Glen I emphasise) is for this to "go away" quietly and that can only happen if Glen publicly drop their appeal. Preferably in a non acrimonious manner.
Expect the Glen squad and management team to be heading off on a hot weather training camp for a week at Easter.....
That's where the smart money lies, imo.
Quote from: Hound on January 31, 2023, 08:00:27 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 30, 2023, 11:54:29 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 30, 2023, 11:46:09 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 30, 2023, 12:35:24 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on January 30, 2023, 12:31:58 PM
The question going forward is do we start replaying games when there are faults made by officials? More serious ones that this happen all the time.
The issue here is that the rule book actually covers what happened with penalties stipulated. There is nothing to say there will be penalties if a ref doesn't give a penalty when he should or sends someone off wrongly etc.
It is irrelevant that Crokes did nothing wrong, the rule is clear about having only 15 players on the pitch, nevertheless the CCC have to examine the circumstances of that extra man being on the pitch. IMO it's clear enough that Glenn were disadvantaged by having to play against 16 players in that last play, however marginal that disadvantage
It's a proven fact that Crokes had 16 players, the circumstance of that only allow for 3 penalties, whether Crokes forfeit the game, a replay or a fine. Imo the fine is out of the question therefore it's likely a replay more than a forfeiture.
why is the fine out of the question? the rule mentions 'circumstances . if Glen knew there was 16, why take the 45, why not wait until the ref did his job. the players didnt know there was the extra man. it didn't figured into the decision of the 45 to go short or the shot to go where it did IMO... I think fine is likely, maybe after some DRA involvement.
Good point. If you accept for the sake of argument that Crokes did wrong (which as MR2 has explained and I agreed with, I don't accept, as I don't see anything they could have done differently to alert the player standing on the line that he was being taken off, given how quick the ref allowed the re-start)
But if you do, then the punishment depends on the "circumstances". So given the actual circumstances, is it possible to work out what was the most likely outcome?
Either the lads remaining on the line would have stood a little further away from each other to cover the gap left by Mullin, or more likely, an extra body would have dropped back, leaving one fewer body out the field.
The 45 was played short. It's reasonably clear that the 45 would have been taken short had Kilmacud only 15 men. Either Kilmacud would have had the same men in the same positions out the field, or one less man out there, either way a reasonable person would conclude the most likely scenario is the tactic would not have changed.
When the recipient received the ball, two Glen players immediately entered the square. The full back on the near side and another player on the far side. Hard to know why they did this, but not unusual in the heat of the moment, and really no reason they would do anything differently in the revised scenario.
Therefore, "in the circumstances", it was pretty much impossible for Glen to score a legal goal.
This is bollocks. Top level club players react to circumstances and opportunities.
Fortress Kilmacud could have been tested with a lob into the square.
The game was undecided when the 45 was kicked.
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 08:31:26 AM
Quote from: Hound on January 31, 2023, 08:00:27 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 30, 2023, 11:54:29 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 30, 2023, 11:46:09 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 30, 2023, 12:35:24 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on January 30, 2023, 12:31:58 PM
The question going forward is do we start replaying games when there are faults made by officials? More serious ones that this happen all the time.
The issue here is that the rule book actually covers what happened with penalties stipulated. There is nothing to say there will be penalties if a ref doesn't give a penalty when he should or sends someone off wrongly etc.
It is irrelevant that Crokes did nothing wrong, the rule is clear about having only 15 players on the pitch, nevertheless the CCC have to examine the circumstances of that extra man being on the pitch. IMO it's clear enough that Glenn were disadvantaged by having to play against 16 players in that last play, however marginal that disadvantage
It's a proven fact that Crokes had 16 players, the circumstance of that only allow for 3 penalties, whether Crokes forfeit the game, a replay or a fine. Imo the fine is out of the question therefore it's likely a replay more than a forfeiture.
why is the fine out of the question? the rule mentions 'circumstances . if Glen knew there was 16, why take the 45, why not wait until the ref did his job. the players didnt know there was the extra man. it didn't figured into the decision of the 45 to go short or the shot to go where it did IMO... I think fine is likely, maybe after some DRA involvement.
Good point. If you accept for the sake of argument that Crokes did wrong (which as MR2 has explained and I agreed with, I don't accept, as I don't see anything they could have done differently to alert the player standing on the line that he was being taken off, given how quick the ref allowed the re-start)
But if you do, then the punishment depends on the "circumstances". So given the actual circumstances, is it possible to work out what was the most likely outcome?
Either the lads remaining on the line would have stood a little further away from each other to cover the gap left by Mullin, or more likely, an extra body would have dropped back, leaving one fewer body out the field.
The 45 was played short. It's reasonably clear that the 45 would have been taken short had Kilmacud only 15 men. Either Kilmacud would have had the same men in the same positions out the field, or one less man out there, either way a reasonable person would conclude the most likely scenario is the tactic would not have changed.
When the recipient received the ball, two Glen players immediately entered the square. The full back on the near side and another player on the far side. Hard to know why they did this, but not unusual in the heat of the moment, and really no reason they would do anything differently in the revised scenario.
Therefore, "in the circumstances", it was pretty much impossible for Glen to score a legal goal.
This is bollocks. Top level club players react to circumstances and opportunities.
Fortress Kilmacud could have been tested with a lob into the square.
The game was undecided when the 45 was kicked.
No replay but I'd give Glen 10 45s against 15 men.
Bet they still wouldn't score.
Quote from: Hound on January 31, 2023, 08:00:27 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 30, 2023, 11:54:29 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 30, 2023, 11:46:09 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 30, 2023, 12:35:24 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on January 30, 2023, 12:31:58 PM
The question going forward is do we start replaying games when there are faults made by officials? More serious ones that this happen all the time.
The issue here is that the rule book actually covers what happened with penalties stipulated. There is nothing to say there will be penalties if a ref doesn't give a penalty when he should or sends someone off wrongly etc.
It is irrelevant that Crokes did nothing wrong, the rule is clear about having only 15 players on the pitch, nevertheless the CCC have to examine the circumstances of that extra man being on the pitch. IMO it's clear enough that Glenn were disadvantaged by having to play against 16 players in that last play, however marginal that disadvantage
It's a proven fact that Crokes had 16 players, the circumstance of that only allow for 3 penalties, whether Crokes forfeit the game, a replay or a fine. Imo the fine is out of the question therefore it's likely a replay more than a forfeiture.
why is the fine out of the question? the rule mentions 'circumstances . if Glen knew there was 16, why take the 45, why not wait until the ref did his job. the players didnt know there was the extra man. it didn't figured into the decision of the 45 to go short or the shot to go where it did IMO... I think fine is likely, maybe after some DRA involvement.
Good point. If you accept for the sake of argument that Crokes did wrong (which as MR2 has explained and I agreed with, I don't accept, as I don't see anything they could have done differently to alert the player standing on the line that he was being taken off, given how quick the ref allowed the re-start)
But if you do, then the punishment depends on the "circumstances". So given the actual circumstances, is it possible to work out what was the most likely outcome?
Either the lads remaining on the line would have stood a little further away from each other to cover the gap left by Mullin, or more likely, an extra body would have dropped back, leaving one fewer body out the field.
The 45 was played short. It's reasonably clear that the 45 would have been taken short had Kilmacud only 15 men. Either Kilmacud would have had the same men in the same positions out the field, or one less man out there, either way a reasonable person would conclude the most likely scenario is the tactic would not have changed.
When the recipient received the ball, two Glen players immediately entered the square. The full back on the near side and another player on the far side. Hard to know why they did this, but not unusual in the heat of the moment, and really no reason they would do anything differently in the revised scenario.
Therefore, "in the circumstances", it was pretty much impossible for Glen to score a legal goal.
I'm sorry but that is absolute bullshit. You me or no one else can say what would have happened if it was played 15 v15 in the first place or if it had been retaken as it should have been. Unlikely yes but certainly not impossible as has been seen countless times in matches up and down the country!
Decision at lunchtime
KC unwilling to play a replay
Per OTB
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 08:53:45 AM
Decision at lunchtime
KC unwilling to play a replay
Per OTB
I hope this isn't true. Would be disappointed if it was the case. If that is the case, GAA should just declare the final null and award neither the f**king cup.
I can't see how this goes to a replay. Did someone not say Walsh is in america and then glen boys are back playing with Derry and I'm sure some dubs are back too. I just don't think logistically it will work. I expect some half assed apology and that be that tbh. There's no way they could award it to Glen. They wouldn't want that either.
Quote from: trueblue1234 on January 31, 2023, 09:58:06 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 08:53:45 AM
Decision at lunchtime
KC unwilling to play a replay
Per OTB
I hope this isn't true. Would be disappointed if it was the case. If that is the case, GAA should just declare the final null and award neither the f**king cup.
I think this will be the outcome
Quote from: trueblue1234 on January 31, 2023, 09:58:06 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 08:53:45 AM
Decision at lunchtime
KC unwilling to play a replay
Per OTB
I hope this isn't true. Would be disappointed if it was the case. If that is the case, GAA should just declare the final null and award neither the f**king cup.
I see where they're coming from. Whole thing is a disaster and unfair on both sets of players. I'm sure the lads had been living like monks for months in preparation of this and made huge sacrifices to enable them to be at peak performance. By now they're back to normal life, unfair to ask them to go back to that level.
Quote from: trueblue1234 on January 31, 2023, 09:58:06 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 08:53:45 AM
Decision at lunchtime
KC unwilling to play a replay
Per OTB
I hope this isn't true. Would be disappointed if it was the case. If that is the case, GAA should just declare the final null and award neither the f**king cup.
What happens if KC do this?
Trophy is awarded to Glen?
If Glen then say we don't want it this way - they give it back to KC? They void the season?
[/quote]
This is bollocks. Top level club players react to circumstances and opportunities.
Fortress Kilmacud could have been tested with a lob into the square.
The game was undecided when the 45 was kicked.
[/quote]
No replay but I'd give Glen 10 45s against 15 men.
Bet they still wouldn't score.
[/quote]
Didn't Kilcoo score a goal from a 45 last year?
This is not a ref issue. 16 players is a rules issue
The CCCC can't try to find a compromise if KC won't agree to a replay.
You can't find a compromise with rules. It's one or the other.
A very difficult fudge for the GAA. #seniorhurling
There's no way out for the GAA. If either team is unwilling to play the replay then void it. Circus has went on long enough.
Quote from: trailer on January 31, 2023, 08:48:21 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 08:31:26 AM
Quote from: Hound on January 31, 2023, 08:00:27 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 30, 2023, 11:54:29 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 30, 2023, 11:46:09 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 30, 2023, 12:35:24 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on January 30, 2023, 12:31:58 PM
The question going forward is do we start replaying games when there are faults made by officials? More serious ones that this happen all the time.
The issue here is that the rule book actually covers what happened with penalties stipulated. There is nothing to say there will be penalties if a ref doesn't give a penalty when he should or sends someone off wrongly etc.
It is irrelevant that Crokes did nothing wrong, the rule is clear about having only 15 players on the pitch, nevertheless the CCC have to examine the circumstances of that extra man being on the pitch. IMO it's clear enough that Glenn were disadvantaged by having to play against 16 players in that last play, however marginal that disadvantage
It's a proven fact that Crokes had 16 players, the circumstance of that only allow for 3 penalties, whether Crokes forfeit the game, a replay or a fine. Imo the fine is out of the question therefore it's likely a replay more than a forfeiture.
why is the fine out of the question? the rule mentions 'circumstances . if Glen knew there was 16, why take the 45, why not wait until the ref did his job. the players didnt know there was the extra man. it didn't figured into the decision of the 45 to go short or the shot to go where it did IMO... I think fine is likely, maybe after some DRA involvement.
Good point. If you accept for the sake of argument that Crokes did wrong (which as MR2 has explained and I agreed with, I don't accept, as I don't see anything they could have done differently to alert the player standing on the line that he was being taken off, given how quick the ref allowed the re-start)
But if you do, then the punishment depends on the "circumstances". So given the actual circumstances, is it possible to work out what was the most likely outcome?
Either the lads remaining on the line would have stood a little further away from each other to cover the gap left by Mullin, or more likely, an extra body would have dropped back, leaving one fewer body out the field.
The 45 was played short. It's reasonably clear that the 45 would have been taken short had Kilmacud only 15 men. Either Kilmacud would have had the same men in the same positions out the field, or one less man out there, either way a reasonable person would conclude the most likely scenario is the tactic would not have changed.
When the recipient received the ball, two Glen players immediately entered the square. The full back on the near side and another player on the far side. Hard to know why they did this, but not unusual in the heat of the moment, and really no reason they would do anything differently in the revised scenario.
Therefore, "in the circumstances", it was pretty much impossible for Glen to score a legal goal.
This is bollocks. Top level club players react to circumstances and opportunities.
Fortress Kilmacud could have been tested with a lob into the square.
The game was undecided when the 45 was kicked.
No replay but I'd give Glen 10 45s against 15 men.
Bet they still wouldn't score.
I'd give them a penalty for a player encroaching at the 45. Penalties given out for fouls out the field so what odds
Quote from: trueblue1234 on January 31, 2023, 10:21:25 AM
There's no way out for the GAA. If either team is unwilling to play the replay then void it. Circus has went on long enough.
Yeah I don't think there's a way they can get out of this without looking extremely bad. If they were to have a replay then they'd to act quickly and they didn't. Damage now done.
The penalty for the dive outside the box should be removed from the scoreboard
Job done. Glen's Cup
That was a blatant foul just not a penalty.
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 31, 2023, 10:31:39 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on January 31, 2023, 10:21:25 AM
There's no way out for the GAA. If either team is unwilling to play the replay then void it. Circus has went on long enough.
Yeah I don't think there's a way they can get out of this without looking extremely bad. If they were to have a replay then they'd to act quickly and they didn't. Damage now done.
Yeah exactly. This really should have been sorted by the Tuesday!
On Nolan this morning again which is never a good thing
Makes a laughing stock of the whole organisation
Replay ordered!!
Did not expect that.
Quote from: trailer on January 30, 2023, 11:40:11 AM
So where's this replay everyone said was going to happen?
Just announced by Croke Park there now Trailer/whatever other alias you use here.
The GAA procrastinated for too long but this is a fair decision imo
https://www.rte.ie/sport/football/2023/0130/1352756-gaa-orders-replay-to-all-ireland-club-football-final/
Kilmacud must be gutted. They could have won the title. They were seconds from doing that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBW8Vnp8BzU
Quote from: RedHand88 on January 31, 2023, 11:14:27 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 30, 2023, 11:40:11 AM
So where's this replay everyone said was going to happen?
Just announced by Croke Park there now Trailer/whatever other alias you use here.
We'll see. It's yet to be played.
The Crokes will be Lawyering up for sure.
Don't expect this to be the end of if.
If Kilmacud stick to their guns I'll have the utmost respect for them.
Quote from: johnnycool on January 31, 2023, 11:25:18 AM
The Crokes will be Lawyering up for sure.
Don't expect this to be the end of if.
Is there a supreme court of the GAA? How far up can this go?
DRA then Court Arbitration for Sport?
Kilmacud won't play anyway so it's going to turn into a farce and will probably be void..sad way to have it no matter what your viewpoint.
KC have 3 days to appeal. But it would have to be credible.
They could ask Richard Kean SC if he can spare any time from the under 9 case.
Absolutely delighted for Watty Graham's.
Quote from: meatsy86 on January 31, 2023, 11:27:19 AM
DRA then Court Arbitration for Sport?
To go to the DRA you have to agree to be bound by the decision of the DRA
Crazy, Glen have a right to appeal and no one can take that off them. But personally, I wouldn't want to replay the whole game for 25 seconds of a mistake, that in all probability wouldn't have costed the match. If KC refuse to play and Glen have a walk over that will be the biggest a balls up to the season ever
Quote from: RedHand88 on January 31, 2023, 11:26:07 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on January 31, 2023, 11:25:18 AM
The Crokes will be Lawyering up for sure.
Don't expect this to be the end of if.
Is there a supreme court of the GAA? How far up can this go?
The DRA but there is also the court system...
https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2023/01/30/mother-seeks-injunction-stopping-dublin-gaa-club-from-allegedly-banning-kids-from-training/
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 11:34:18 AM
Crazy, Glen have a right to appeal and no one can take that off them. But personally, I wouldn't want to replay the whole game for 25 seconds of a mistake, that in all probability wouldn't have costed the match. If KC refuse to play and Glen have a walk over that will be the biggest a balls up to the season ever
How long does it take to score a goal and what is the probability of a goal in extra time ?
Probability without data is nonsense.
No chance KC play. It's last minute desperation stuff from Glenn. They really ought to take the moral ground and also refuse to play.
Quote from: trailer on January 31, 2023, 11:38:51 AM
No chance KC play. It's last minute desperation stuff from Glenn. They really ought to take the moral ground and also refuse to play.
In that case it'll be stripped off them.
Also, the GAA agreed with their "last minute desperation stuff" as do the rules.
Surely if the game is to go ahead there isnt any real justification for playing it in an empty Croke Park?
Quote from: RedHand88 on January 31, 2023, 11:41:08 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 31, 2023, 11:38:51 AM
No chance KC play. It's last minute desperation stuff from Glenn. They really ought to take the moral ground and also refuse to play.
In that case it'll be stripped off them.
Also, the GAA agreed with their "last minute desperation stuff" as do the rules.
They'll know that and doubt they'll care. They've lifted the trophy and celebrated the win already
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 11:37:07 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 11:34:18 AM
Crazy, Glen have a right to appeal and no one can take that off them. But personally, I wouldn't want to replay the whole game for 25 seconds of a mistake, that in all probability wouldn't have costed the match. If KC refuse to play and Glen have a walk over that will be the biggest a balls up to the season ever
How long does it take to score a goal and what is the probability of a goal in extra time ?
Probability without data is nonsense.
They scored 1 goal in 64 minutes, how many goals were they going to score in 25 seconds? Christ
KC have a tough decision to make. The court of public opinion will support a replay. If they throw their toys out of the pram now they 'll be remembered as the team that lost one final and cheated to win another one. The only rational option is to hammer the shite out of Wattys in the replay.
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 31, 2023, 11:11:28 AM
Did not expect that.
You and Trailer both :)
It's a very unsatisfactory outcome for everybody - no winners here no matter how it ends up. But when one team has 16 players on the pitch no matter what, it's wrong pure and simple. Everything else is a smokescreen.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 11:34:18 AM
Crazy, Glen have a right to appeal and no one can take that off them. But personally, I wouldn't want to replay the whole game for 25 seconds of a mistake, that in all probability wouldn't have costed the match. If KC refuse to play and Glen have a walk over that will be the biggest a balls up to the season ever
Really?
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 11:47:45 AM
KC have a tough decision to make. The court of public opinion will support a replay. If they throw their toys out of the pram now they 'll be remembered as the team that lost one final and cheated to win another one. The only rational option is to hammer the shite out of Wattys in the replay.
Having spoken to a few men from Glen club it sounds as if the players wouldnt be too enthused about a replay. Whether you here the players say that outloud or not. I imagine KC will wait for Glen to withdraw. Although if Kilmacud come out and agree to it you can believe the Maghera men will turn up and bring it to them.
Did not expect that. It will get very messy now I'd say. Two big questions remain.
Will Kilmacud play it? Will Glen want to play it?
Quote from: JoG2 on January 31, 2023, 11:53:29 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 11:34:18 AM
Crazy, Glen have a right to appeal and no one can take that off them. But personally, I wouldn't want to replay the whole game for 25 seconds of a mistake, that in all probability wouldn't have costed the match. If KC refuse to play and Glen have a walk over that will be the biggest a balls up to the season ever
Really?
Yeah really, the odds are massively stacked against a team looking a last minute goal. My own team gave one up few years ago, heartbreaking as it is it just doesn't happen that often, in all my days playing and ref'ing its rare, we all have memories where it has happened but its not as common.
But look Glen are right to appeal, its in the rules that extra players on the pitch that shouldn't have been there has the option of fine forfeit and replay, personally I wouldn't go looking a replay, old school and all that.
At no point do I think KC cheated in this, this was a mistake by the officials for not ensuring both players left the field like they normally do, no one was instructed to stay on the pitch.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 11:47:03 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 11:37:07 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 11:34:18 AM
Crazy, Glen have a right to appeal and no one can take that off them. But personally, I wouldn't want to replay the whole game for 25 seconds of a mistake, that in all probability wouldn't have costed the match. If KC refuse to play and Glen have a walk over that will be the biggest a balls up to the season ever
How long does it take to score a goal and what is the probability of a goal in extra time ?
Probability without data is nonsense.
They scored 1 goal in 64 minutes, how many goals were they going to score in 25 seconds? Christ
Lol what a strange logic.
it will end up with the DRA
Sure when does a last gasp goal ever happen in an All Ireland club final?
Quote from: RedHand88 on January 31, 2023, 11:41:08 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 31, 2023, 11:38:51 AM
No chance KC play. It's last minute desperation stuff from Glenn. They really ought to take the moral ground and also refuse to play.
In that case it'll be stripped off them.
Also, the GAA agreed with their "last minute desperation stuff" as do the rules.
They are the champions. Stripping it off them changes nothing.
The GAA has to change the process around substitutions.
Time everyone moved on.
Hope Kilmacud stick to their guns.
Do both clubs order their teams back into full training now? Really terribly unfair on players as they are left in limbo.
I think the longer it's gone on now that Kilmacud will just hand the cup back other than go for a replay, congrats to Glenn on winning the club championship, they are not the first team to win an AI in the boardroom to be fair.
Quote from: yellowcard on January 31, 2023, 12:07:50 PM
Do both clubs order their teams back into full training now? Really terribly unfair on players as they are left in limbo.
Unfair on KC players I think. Hence why they may not play it. Glen have asked for this.
Quote from: johnnycool on January 30, 2023, 09:28:40 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 29, 2023, 08:46:07 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 29, 2023, 08:33:58 PM
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on January 29, 2023, 08:18:57 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 29, 2023, 07:10:13 PM
Result will not stand, simply because in the rulebook for the infringement the penalty is conceding the game, fine, replay. One too much, the other too light a punishment. Doesn't matter who's fault it is, that what it states.
This is my first comment on this
As stated above the penalty is conceding the game, fine OR a replay
On what grounds do they decide which penalty to issue ?
I mean 3 penalties for 1 infringement
You either break the rule or you don't
I suppose it depends on the level of the offence. Maybe if Mullin had actually caught the ball or made a block on the line a forfeit would have been in order, or if it could (not sure how though) be proven that KC intentionally played with an extra man. In this case a replay is probably fair. Maybe in Mannions case a fine would be a applicable for him being away from the action but still on the field.
Are we fining all clubs that have lads standing over the line now? Wow
At IC level counties are fined all the time for "pitch encroachments" or they used to be.
Heck, teams were fined if players didn't have their socks pulled up in the parade.
Evidently everyone here is still unsure who's ultimately responsible for ensuring a team has only the 15 players on the field..
I'd be surprised by the way CP interprets the rules that it isn't the team themselves rather than the match officials.
Kilmacud Crokes argued that it wasn't their responsibility to ensure that there were the correct numbers on the field and it was the job of the match officials but Croke Park evidently have ruled that it was their responsibility when deciding to go for the replay.
That's what it all boils down to, so beware you managers out there..
Quote from: yellowcard on January 31, 2023, 12:07:50 PM
Do both clubs order their teams back into full training now? Really terribly unfair on players as they are left in limbo.
Easy on - its not the Ukraine-Russia War!
Rory Gallagher will be delighted
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 12:00:11 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 31, 2023, 11:53:29 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 11:34:18 AM
Crazy, Glen have a right to appeal and no one can take that off them. But personally, I wouldn't want to replay the whole game for 25 seconds of a mistake, that in all probability wouldn't have costed the match. If KC refuse to play and Glen have a walk over that will be the biggest a balls up to the season ever
Really?
Yeah really, the odds are massively stacked against a team looking a last minute goal. My own team gave one up few years ago, heartbreaking as it is it just doesn't happen that often, in all my days playing and ref'ing its rare, we all have memories where it has happened but its not as common.
But look Glen are right to appeal, its in the rules that extra players on the pitch that shouldn't have been there has the option of fine forfeit and replay, personally I wouldn't go looking a replay, old school and all that.
At no point do I think KC cheated in this, this was a mistake by the officials for not ensuring both players left the field like they normally do, no one was instructed to stay on the pitch.
Even if there was no last minute effect, the probability of a last minute goal would not be zero. Last minute goals are tail risk. Here is an example from another sport https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5VZc28Lis4&t=180s
The key point imo is that the match was not decided because of the tail risk. Even if it was for 30 seconds. And Glen couldn't be expected to take their beating if they hadn't been beaten. That's why there has to be a replay.
Cheating would have to be investigated. I have no idea whether KC cheated or not. Nobody does.
Was there no onus on KC to ensure their player came off? Surely they knew he didn't come off therefore knew they had 16 players on the field
Quote from: johnnycool on January 31, 2023, 12:10:04 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on January 30, 2023, 09:28:40 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 29, 2023, 08:46:07 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 29, 2023, 08:33:58 PM
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on January 29, 2023, 08:18:57 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 29, 2023, 07:10:13 PM
Result will not stand, simply because in the rulebook for the infringement the penalty is conceding the game, fine, replay. One too much, the other too light a punishment. Doesn't matter who's fault it is, that what it states.
This is my first comment on this
As stated above the penalty is conceding the game, fine OR a replay
On what grounds do they decide which penalty to issue ?
I mean 3 penalties for 1 infringement
You either break the rule or you don't
I suppose it depends on the level of the offence. Maybe if Mullin had actually caught the ball or made a block on the line a forfeit would have been in order, or if it could (not sure how though) be proven that KC intentionally played with an extra man. In this case a replay is probably fair. Maybe in Mannions case a fine would be a applicable for him being away from the action but still on the field.
Are we fining all clubs that have lads standing over the line now? Wow
At IC level counties are fined all the time for "pitch encroachments" or they used to be.
Heck, teams were fined if players didn't have their socks pulled up in the parade.
Evidently everyone here is still unsure who's ultimately responsible for ensuring a team has only the 15 players on the field..
I'd be surprised by the way CP interprets the rules that it isn't the team themselves rather than the match officials.
Kilmacud Crokes argued that it wasn't their responsibility to ensure that there were the correct numbers on the field and it was the job of the match officials but Croke Park evidently have ruled that it was their responsibility when deciding to go for the replay.
That's what it all boils down to, so beware you managers out there..
Laureleye said last week that his club played a big match in 2018 and that there was a row and 1 player from each team were given yellow cards and their player was already on one but not sent off by the ref. So they took him off.
Clubs are responsible for observing the rules.
It sounds like this is just something that went out of control.
Replay right course of action once appeal was in. I can't see KC giving up an AI when it's still there for the winning. Unfair on the Glen players to do that. They can argue the toss all they like but the reality is the GAA have ruled that there was fault there and it's not even one they can disagree with. It's there for all to see so I think throwing the head up now is poor. The only fair way out is to give both teams the opportunity to win it fairly.
This may sound harsh on KC given the short time involved but it was also harsh on Glen to go into the dying play of the game against an extra player when they needed a score. If it's not a reply neither club is going to be happy with how it was won.
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 12:00:11 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 31, 2023, 11:53:29 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 11:34:18 AM
Crazy, Glen have a right to appeal and no one can take that off them. But personally, I wouldn't want to replay the whole game for 25 seconds of a mistake, that in all probability wouldn't have costed the match. If KC refuse to play and Glen have a walk over that will be the biggest a balls up to the season ever
Really?
Yeah really, the odds are massively stacked against a team looking a last minute goal. My own team gave one up few years ago, heartbreaking as it is it just doesn't happen that often, in all my days playing and ref'ing its rare, we all have memories where it has happened but its not as common.
But look Glen are right to appeal, its in the rules that extra players on the pitch that shouldn't have been there has the option of fine forfeit and replay, personally I wouldn't go looking a replay, old school and all that.
At no point do I think KC cheated in this, this was a mistake by the officials for not ensuring both players left the field like they normally do, no one was instructed to stay on the pitch.
Even if there was no last minute effect, the probability of a last minute goal would not be zero. Last minute goals are tail risk. Here is an example from another sport https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5VZc28Lis4&t=180s
The key point imo is that the match was not decided because of the tail risk. Even if it was for 30 seconds. And Glen couldn't be expected to take their beating if they hadn't been beaten. That's why there has to be a replay.
Cheating would have to be investigated. I have no idea whether KC cheated or not. Nobody does.
Cheating would suggest a deliberate act by the Crokes management, I'm not sure you can draw that conclusion.
What we do know is that the rules were broken even for 45 seconds or whatever at that and Croke Park have ruled that it was the responsibility of the Crokes management to ensure that this didn't happen which they failed to do.
Kilcoo couldn't score against KC for. a long time but goaled at the very end. The rules was quite clear on course of action and still we had 30pgs plus arguing over what was always going to happen here. I save you another 20pgs of crap. Even if KC took further up appeal wise, the result be the same. A replay be ordered, 1 team doesn't turn up, the game be awarded to the other plus fine, both don't turn up it be fines for both, probably null and void for winners plus return cup and medals. Should ask Mickey Harte, he a habit of not turning up for recent games!
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 12:00:11 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 31, 2023, 11:53:29 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 11:34:18 AM
Crazy, Glen have a right to appeal and no one can take that off them. But personally, I wouldn't want to replay the whole game for 25 seconds of a mistake, that in all probability wouldn't have costed the match. If KC refuse to play and Glen have a walk over that will be the biggest a balls up to the season ever
Really?
Yeah really, the odds are massively stacked against a team looking a last minute goal. My own team gave one up few years ago, heartbreaking as it is it just doesn't happen that often, in all my days playing and ref'ing its rare, we all have memories where it has happened but its not as common.
But look Glen are right to appeal, its in the rules that extra players on the pitch that shouldn't have been there has the option of fine forfeit and replay, personally I wouldn't go looking a replay, old school and all that.
At no point do I think KC cheated in this, this was a mistake by the officials for not ensuring both players left the field like they normally do, no one was instructed to stay on the pitch.
But it still happens, no matter how rare. Obvious example a late late goal in last years final. Intermediate final in Armagh this year decided by a long ball in at the last minute
Quote from: johnnycool on January 31, 2023, 12:26:08 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 12:00:11 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 31, 2023, 11:53:29 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 11:34:18 AM
Crazy, Glen have a right to appeal and no one can take that off them. But personally, I wouldn't want to replay the whole game for 25 seconds of a mistake, that in all probability wouldn't have costed the match. If KC refuse to play and Glen have a walk over that will be the biggest a balls up to the season ever
Really?
Yeah really, the odds are massively stacked against a team looking a last minute goal. My own team gave one up few years ago, heartbreaking as it is it just doesn't happen that often, in all my days playing and ref'ing its rare, we all have memories where it has happened but its not as common.
But look Glen are right to appeal, its in the rules that extra players on the pitch that shouldn't have been there has the option of fine forfeit and replay, personally I wouldn't go looking a replay, old school and all that.
At no point do I think KC cheated in this, this was a mistake by the officials for not ensuring both players left the field like they normally do, no one was instructed to stay on the pitch.
Even if there was no last minute effect, the probability of a last minute goal would not be zero. Last minute goals are tail risk. Here is an example from another sport https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5VZc28Lis4&t=180s
The key point imo is that the match was not decided because of the tail risk. Even if it was for 30 seconds. And Glen couldn't be expected to take their beating if they hadn't been beaten. That's why there has to be a replay.
Cheating would have to be investigated. I have no idea whether KC cheated or not. Nobody does.
Cheating would suggest a deliberate act by the Crokes management, I'm not sure you can draw that conclusion.
What we do know is that the rules were broken even for 45 seconds or whatever at that and Croke Park have ruled that it was the responsibility of the Crokes management to ensure that this didn't happen which they failed to do.
It doesn't matter anyway. The decision is fair . It's just a pity it took so long.
It is a fair decision. You're right.
But decision to allow the result to stand would have been more fair again.
Are there any stats on the frequency of goals score in GAA by time of goal ?
"Following meetings of CCCC last night and this morning, the objection of CLG Gleann Machaire Ratha as per Riail 7.10 (n) T.O. has been upheld as it is proven that CLG Cill Mochuda na Crócaigh exceeded the number of players permitted under Riail 2.1 Rules of Specification, Playing Rules (Treoir Oifigiúil Cuid II).
On that ruling even above the GAA are blaming Kilmacud, so if Glen don't play the replay it would have to be null and void season?
Quote from: pbat on January 31, 2023, 01:12:26 PM
"Following meetings of CCCC last night and this morning, the objection of CLG Gleann Machaire Ratha as per Riail 7.10 (n) T.O. has been upheld as it is proven that CLG Cill Mochuda na Crócaigh exceeded the number of players permitted under Riail 2.1 Rules of Specification, Playing Rules (Treoir Oifigiúil Cuid II).
On that ruling even above the GAA are blaming Kilmacud, so if Glen don't play the replay it would have to be null and void season?
are they though? Even in it wasn't KC's fault they still had too many players on the field
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 01:00:53 PM
Are there any stats on the frequency of goals score in GAA by time of goal ?
95% of all goals against 15 aside are scored in stoppage time
0% of all goals against 17 aside are scored in stoppage time
I can see why KC done it considering last years final!
Whatever will happen now with scheduling or either teams appetite to replay, only time will tell. KC can still appeal so this thing could have more legs yet before we get a resolution.
But regardless of the ifs, buts, faults, officials etc. this was the only conclusion they could have came to. Responsibility for number of players on the field is, and always has been a teams responsibility. Not that hard to comprehend and trying to equate this into a simple refereeing error was never going to work.
The rule's very existence dissolves the ref of any responsibility. If more than 15 players on field a team will be penalised. We can safely assume in every such situation this happens, the ref has not spotted the infraction so has made an error of sorts. But the ultimate responsibility and penalty is to offending team.
Shane Walsh currently in Dubai going by social media.
Will the issue be resolved before they meet in next (this) year's all ireland semi final?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQSkouaPoAU
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 31, 2023, 01:22:12 PM
Whatever will happen now with scheduling or either teams appetite to replay, only time will tell. KC can still appeal so this thing could have more legs yet before we get a resolution.
But regardless of the ifs, buts, faults, officials etc. this was the only conclusion they could have came to. Responsibility for number of players on the field is, and always has been a teams responsibility. Not that hard to comprehend and trying to equate this into a simple refereeing error was never going to work.
The rule's very existence dissolves the ref of any responsibility. If more than 15 players on field a team will be penalised. We can safely assume in every such situation this happens, the ref has not spotted the infraction so has made an error of sorts. But the ultimate responsibility and penalty is to offending team.
It's not ref issue. It's a structural issue
Over the course of a match ref mistakes should even out but with structural issues they can't.
Same ref doing it I hear, seeing as he did nowt wrong
I think kc manager was so spooked so much by last years outcome that it contributed to the panic of rushing on subs unfortunately has led to this outcome.
Quote from: smort on January 31, 2023, 01:32:17 PM
Shane Walsh currently in Dubai going by social media.
Will the issue be resolved before they meet in next (this) year's all ireland semi final?
Teaching ?
Still can't see this game being played. Glen for the moral high ground, point made but we don't want to play the game. Big risk of the whole project going South if they're not 100% United on it.
I am surprised as this game will not be re-played.
Quote from: downtothecore on January 31, 2023, 01:37:25 PM
I think kc manager was so spooked so much by last years outcome that it contributed to the panic of rushing on subs unfortunately has led to this outcome.
That sounds quite likely.
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 12:00:11 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 31, 2023, 11:53:29 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 11:34:18 AM
Crazy, Glen have a right to appeal and no one can take that off them. But personally, I wouldn't want to replay the whole game for 25 seconds of a mistake, that in all probability wouldn't have costed the match. If KC refuse to play and Glen have a walk over that will be the biggest a balls up to the season ever
Really?
Yeah really, the odds are massively stacked against a team looking a last minute goal. My own team gave one up few years ago, heartbreaking as it is it just doesn't happen that often, in all my days playing and ref'ing its rare, we all have memories where it has happened but its not as common.
But look Glen are right to appeal, its in the rules that extra players on the pitch that shouldn't have been there has the option of fine forfeit and replay, personally I wouldn't go looking a replay, old school and all that.
At no point do I think KC cheated in this, this was a mistake by the officials for not ensuring both players left the field like they normally do, no one was instructed to stay on the pitch.
Even if there was no last minute effect, the probability of a last minute goal would not be zero. Last minute goals are tail risk. Here is an example from another sport https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5VZc28Lis4&t=180s
The key point imo is that the match was not decided because of the tail risk. Even if it was for 30 seconds. And Glen couldn't be expected to take their beating if they hadn't been beaten. That's why there has to be a replay.
Cheating would have to be investigated. I have no idea whether KC cheated or not. Nobody does.
But you are confident that the result would have changed had the extra player for that amount of time prevented Glen from winning?
I've said already the balls up needed to be looked at and hopefully the main conclusions will be, subs through the middle of the pitch (says in in rules anyway, unless injured, player can leave at nearest point) subs off first before putting subs on.
Adding 20 seconds for each sub, 10 subs overall would put on just over 3 minutes as a bare minimum (should all subs be in the second half) on top of the injury time
When is the rematch meant to happen?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 02:34:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 12:00:11 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 31, 2023, 11:53:29 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 11:34:18 AM
Crazy, Glen have a right to appeal and no one can take that off them. But personally, I wouldn't want to replay the whole game for 25 seconds of a mistake, that in all probability wouldn't have costed the match. If KC refuse to play and Glen have a walk over that will be the biggest a balls up to the season ever
Really?
Yeah really, the odds are massively stacked against a team looking a last minute goal. My own team gave one up few years ago, heartbreaking as it is it just doesn't happen that often, in all my days playing and ref'ing its rare, we all have memories where it has happened but its not as common.
But look Glen are right to appeal, its in the rules that extra players on the pitch that shouldn't have been there has the option of fine forfeit and replay, personally I wouldn't go looking a replay, old school and all that.
At no point do I think KC cheated in this, this was a mistake by the officials for not ensuring both players left the field like they normally do, no one was instructed to stay on the pitch.
Even if there was no last minute effect, the probability of a last minute goal would not be zero. Last minute goals are tail risk. Here is an example from another sport https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5VZc28Lis4&t=180s
The key point imo is that the match was not decided because of the tail risk. Even if it was for 30 seconds. And Glen couldn't be expected to take their beating if they hadn't been beaten. That's why there has to be a replay.
Cheating would have to be investigated. I have no idea whether KC cheated or not. Nobody does.
But you are confident that the result would have changed had the extra player for that amount of time prevented Glen from winning?
I've said already the balls up needed to be looked at and hopefully the main conclusions will be, subs through the middle of the pitch (says in in rules anyway, unless injured, player can leave at nearest point) subs off first before putting subs on.
Adding 20 seconds for each sub, 10 subs overall would put on just over 3 minutes as a bare minimum (should all subs be in the second half) on top of the injury time
Say the chance of a goal in the last minute is 1 in 5. With 15 vs 15 they would have had a 1/5 chance of scoring a goal and winning.
With 15 v 16 they had no chance.
Quote from: Itchy on January 31, 2023, 02:22:11 PM
I am surprised as this game will not be re-played.
The decision to replay means that the match has not been won . So there must be no winner.
If KC refuse to play the rematch presumably they would forfeit it.
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 02:38:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 02:34:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 12:00:11 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 31, 2023, 11:53:29 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 11:34:18 AM
Crazy, Glen have a right to appeal and no one can take that off them. But personally, I wouldn't want to replay the whole game for 25 seconds of a mistake, that in all probability wouldn't have costed the match. If KC refuse to play and Glen have a walk over that will be the biggest a balls up to the season ever
Really?
Yeah really, the odds are massively stacked against a team looking a last minute goal. My own team gave one up few years ago, heartbreaking as it is it just doesn't happen that often, in all my days playing and ref'ing its rare, we all have memories where it has happened but its not as common.
But look Glen are right to appeal, its in the rules that extra players on the pitch that shouldn't have been there has the option of fine forfeit and replay, personally I wouldn't go looking a replay, old school and all that.
At no point do I think KC cheated in this, this was a mistake by the officials for not ensuring both players left the field like they normally do, no one was instructed to stay on the pitch.
Even if there was no last minute effect, the probability of a last minute goal would not be zero. Last minute goals are tail risk. Here is an example from another sport https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5VZc28Lis4&t=180s
The key point imo is that the match was not decided because of the tail risk. Even if it was for 30 seconds. And Glen couldn't be expected to take their beating if they hadn't been beaten. That's why there has to be a replay.
Cheating would have to be investigated. I have no idea whether KC cheated or not. Nobody does.
But you are confident that the result would have changed had the extra player for that amount of time prevented Glen from winning?
I've said already the balls up needed to be looked at and hopefully the main conclusions will be, subs through the middle of the pitch (says in in rules anyway, unless injured, player can leave at nearest point) subs off first before putting subs on.
Adding 20 seconds for each sub, 10 subs overall would put on just over 3 minutes as a bare minimum (should all subs be in the second half) on top of the injury time
Say the chance of a goal in the last minute is 1 in 5. With 15 vs 15 they would have had a 1/5 chance of scoring a goal and winning.
With 15 v 16 they had no chance.
One thing that i'm sick of reading in relation to this is peoples little scenarios about how the game might have ended if it had of been 15 vs 15 at the end.
Tell ya one thing, teams will be more focused now on the substitution procedure and if Croke park look at the world cups extra time methodically then this would end all the flaffing about with subs in the first place.
Quote from: north_antrim_hound on January 31, 2023, 02:46:08 PM
Tell ya one thing, teams will be more focused now on the substitution procedure and if Croke park look at the world cups extra time methodically then this would end all the flaffing about with subs in the first place.
A rigid process will be introduced, nothing surer.
Quote from: Cavan19 on January 31, 2023, 02:41:36 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 02:38:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 02:34:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 12:00:11 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 31, 2023, 11:53:29 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 11:34:18 AM
Crazy, Glen have a right to appeal and no one can take that off them. But personally, I wouldn't want to replay the whole game for 25 seconds of a mistake, that in all probability wouldn't have costed the match. If KC refuse to play and Glen have a walk over that will be the biggest a balls up to the season ever
Really?
Yeah really, the odds are massively stacked against a team looking a last minute goal. My own team gave one up few years ago, heartbreaking as it is it just doesn't happen that often, in all my days playing and ref'ing its rare, we all have memories where it has happened but its not as common.
But look Glen are right to appeal, its in the rules that extra players on the pitch that shouldn't have been there has the option of fine forfeit and replay, personally I wouldn't go looking a replay, old school and all that.
At no point do I think KC cheated in this, this was a mistake by the officials for not ensuring both players left the field like they normally do, no one was instructed to stay on the pitch.
Even if there was no last minute effect, the probability of a last minute goal would not be zero. Last minute goals are tail risk. Here is an example from another sport https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5VZc28Lis4&t=180s
The key point imo is that the match was not decided because of the tail risk. Even if it was for 30 seconds. And Glen couldn't be expected to take their beating if they hadn't been beaten. That's why there has to be a replay.
Cheating would have to be investigated. I have no idea whether KC cheated or not. Nobody does.
But you are confident that the result would have changed had the extra player for that amount of time prevented Glen from winning?
I've said already the balls up needed to be looked at and hopefully the main conclusions will be, subs through the middle of the pitch (says in in rules anyway, unless injured, player can leave at nearest point) subs off first before putting subs on.
Adding 20 seconds for each sub, 10 subs overall would put on just over 3 minutes as a bare minimum (should all subs be in the second half) on top of the injury time
Say the chance of a goal in the last minute is 1 in 5. With 15 vs 15 they would have had a 1/5 chance of scoring a goal and winning.
With 15 v 16 they had no chance.
One thing that i'm sick of reading in relation to this is peoples little scenarios about how the game might have ended if it had of been 15 vs 15 at the end.
AMEN!
Quote from: Kidder81 on January 31, 2023, 01:42:06 PM
Quote from: smort on January 31, 2023, 01:32:17 PM
Shane Walsh currently in Dubai going by social media.
Will the issue be resolved before they meet in next (this) year's all ireland semi final?
Teaching ?
50k to play for Dubai Celts until March!
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 02:38:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 02:34:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 12:00:11 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 31, 2023, 11:53:29 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 11:34:18 AM
Crazy, Glen have a right to appeal and no one can take that off them. But personally, I wouldn't want to replay the whole game for 25 seconds of a mistake, that in all probability wouldn't have costed the match. If KC refuse to play and Glen have a walk over that will be the biggest a balls up to the season ever
Really?
Yeah really, the odds are massively stacked against a team looking a last minute goal. My own team gave one up few years ago, heartbreaking as it is it just doesn't happen that often, in all my days playing and ref'ing its rare, we all have memories where it has happened but its not as common.
But look Glen are right to appeal, its in the rules that extra players on the pitch that shouldn't have been there has the option of fine forfeit and replay, personally I wouldn't go looking a replay, old school and all that.
At no point do I think KC cheated in this, this was a mistake by the officials for not ensuring both players left the field like they normally do, no one was instructed to stay on the pitch.
Even if there was no last minute effect, the probability of a last minute goal would not be zero. Last minute goals are tail risk. Here is an example from another sport https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5VZc28Lis4&t=180s
The key point imo is that the match was not decided because of the tail risk. Even if it was for 30 seconds. And Glen couldn't be expected to take their beating if they hadn't been beaten. That's why there has to be a replay.
Cheating would have to be investigated. I have no idea whether KC cheated or not. Nobody does.
But you are confident that the result would have changed had the extra player for that amount of time prevented Glen from winning?
I've said already the balls up needed to be looked at and hopefully the main conclusions will be, subs through the middle of the pitch (says in in rules anyway, unless injured, player can leave at nearest point) subs off first before putting subs on.
Adding 20 seconds for each sub, 10 subs overall would put on just over 3 minutes as a bare minimum (should all subs be in the second half) on top of the injury time
Say the chance of a goal in the last minute is 1 in 5. With 15 vs 15 they would have had a 1/5 chance of scoring a goal and winning.
With 15 v 16 they had no chance.
You think the chances went from 20% to 0.0% ?
Why don't we say it was something more like from 4% to 2%.
In other words, Kilmacud's probability of winning the game increased from 96% to 98%. Not a major difference.
They deserved to win and would've won regardless of the mistaken 16th man.
Amazing the amount of people saying crokes deserved their win while ignoring the extra players and the fact they were incorrectly given a penalty.
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 02:39:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 31, 2023, 02:22:11 PM
I am surprised as this game will not be re-played.
The decision to replay means that the match has not been won . So there must be no winner.
If KC refuse to play the rematch presumably they would forfeit it.
I think that's the likely outcome. What a mess.
Quote from: jmcgdoire on January 31, 2023, 03:03:03 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 02:38:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 02:34:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 12:00:11 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 31, 2023, 11:53:29 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 11:34:18 AM
Crazy, Glen have a right to appeal and no one can take that off them. But personally, I wouldn't want to replay the whole game for 25 seconds of a mistake, that in all probability wouldn't have costed the match. If KC refuse to play and Glen have a walk over that will be the biggest a balls up to the season ever
Really?
Yeah really, the odds are massively stacked against a team looking a last minute goal. My own team gave one up few years ago, heartbreaking as it is it just doesn't happen that often, in all my days playing and ref'ing its rare, we all have memories where it has happened but its not as common.
But look Glen are right to appeal, its in the rules that extra players on the pitch that shouldn't have been there has the option of fine forfeit and replay, personally I wouldn't go looking a replay, old school and all that.
At no point do I think KC cheated in this, this was a mistake by the officials for not ensuring both players left the field like they normally do, no one was instructed to stay on the pitch.
Even if there was no last minute effect, the probability of a last minute goal would not be zero. Last minute goals are tail risk. Here is an example from another sport https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5VZc28Lis4&t=180s
The key point imo is that the match was not decided because of the tail risk. Even if it was for 30 seconds. And Glen couldn't be expected to take their beating if they hadn't been beaten. That's why there has to be a replay.
Cheating would have to be investigated. I have no idea whether KC cheated or not. Nobody does.
But you are confident that the result would have changed had the extra player for that amount of time prevented Glen from winning?
I've said already the balls up needed to be looked at and hopefully the main conclusions will be, subs through the middle of the pitch (says in in rules anyway, unless injured, player can leave at nearest point) subs off first before putting subs on.
Adding 20 seconds for each sub, 10 subs overall would put on just over 3 minutes as a bare minimum (should all subs be in the second half) on top of the injury time
Say the chance of a goal in the last minute is 1 in 5. With 15 vs 15 they would have had a 1/5 chance of scoring a goal and winning.
With 15 v 16 they had no chance.
You think the chances went from 20% to 0.0% ?
Why don't we say it was something more like from 4% to 2%.
In other words, Kilmacud's probability of winning the game increased from 96% to 98%. Not a major difference.
They deserved to win and would've won regardless of the mistaken 16th man.
Steps!
1/5 is 20%
KC would have been 80%. It has to add to 100%.
If Wattys go ro 2 % then KC go to 98 %
The extra man removed the tail risk. But lost them the match.
Quote from: Cavan19 on January 31, 2023, 02:41:36 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 02:38:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 02:34:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 12:00:11 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 31, 2023, 11:53:29 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 11:34:18 AM
Crazy, Glen have a right to appeal and no one can take that off them. But personally, I wouldn't want to replay the whole game for 25 seconds of a mistake, that in all probability wouldn't have costed the match. If KC refuse to play and Glen have a walk over that will be the biggest a balls up to the season ever
Really?
Yeah really, the odds are massively stacked against a team looking a last minute goal. My own team gave one up few years ago, heartbreaking as it is it just doesn't happen that often, in all my days playing and ref'ing its rare, we all have memories where it has happened but its not as common.
But look Glen are right to appeal, its in the rules that extra players on the pitch that shouldn't have been there has the option of fine forfeit and replay, personally I wouldn't go looking a replay, old school and all that.
At no point do I think KC cheated in this, this was a mistake by the officials for not ensuring both players left the field like they normally do, no one was instructed to stay on the pitch.
Even if there was no last minute effect, the probability of a last minute goal would not be zero. Last minute goals are tail risk. Here is an example from another sport https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5VZc28Lis4&t=180s
The key point imo is that the match was not decided because of the tail risk. Even if it was for 30 seconds. And Glen couldn't be expected to take their beating if they hadn't been beaten. That's why there has to be a replay.
Cheating would have to be investigated. I have no idea whether KC cheated or not. Nobody does.
But you are confident that the result would have changed had the extra player for that amount of time prevented Glen from winning?
I've said already the balls up needed to be looked at and hopefully the main conclusions will be, subs through the middle of the pitch (says in in rules anyway, unless injured, player can leave at nearest point) subs off first before putting subs on.
Adding 20 seconds for each sub, 10 subs overall would put on just over 3 minutes as a bare minimum (should all subs be in the second half) on top of the injury time
Say the chance of a goal in the last minute is 1 in 5. With 15 vs 15 they would have had a 1/5 chance of scoring a goal and winning.
With 15 v 16 they had no chance.
One thing that i'm sick of reading in relation to this is peoples little scenarios about how the game might have ended if it had of been 15 vs 15 at the end.
Have a laugh every time I see one of these
It's one thing saying it - but the most bewildering thing is that people actually sit and take time to type this nonsense out
Quote from: AustinPowers on January 31, 2023, 02:35:35 PM
When is the rematch meant to happen?
Croke Park 11th February. Throw in 5 pm
Quote from: Franko on January 31, 2023, 03:26:27 PM
Quote from: Cavan19 on January 31, 2023, 02:41:36 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 02:38:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 02:34:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 12:00:11 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 31, 2023, 11:53:29 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 11:34:18 AM
Crazy, Glen have a right to appeal and no one can take that off them. But personally, I wouldn't want to replay the whole game for 25 seconds of a mistake, that in all probability wouldn't have costed the match. If KC refuse to play and Glen have a walk over that will be the biggest a balls up to the season ever
Really?
Yeah really, the odds are massively stacked against a team looking a last minute goal. My own team gave one up few years ago, heartbreaking as it is it just doesn't happen that often, in all my days playing and ref'ing its rare, we all have memories where it has happened but its not as common.
But look Glen are right to appeal, its in the rules that extra players on the pitch that shouldn't have been there has the option of fine forfeit and replay, personally I wouldn't go looking a replay, old school and all that.
At no point do I think KC cheated in this, this was a mistake by the officials for not ensuring both players left the field like they normally do, no one was instructed to stay on the pitch.
Even if there was no last minute effect, the probability of a last minute goal would not be zero. Last minute goals are tail risk. Here is an example from another sport https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5VZc28Lis4&t=180s
The key point imo is that the match was not decided because of the tail risk. Even if it was for 30 seconds. And Glen couldn't be expected to take their beating if they hadn't been beaten. That's why there has to be a replay.
Cheating would have to be investigated. I have no idea whether KC cheated or not. Nobody does.
But you are confident that the result would have changed had the extra player for that amount of time prevented Glen from winning?
I've said already the balls up needed to be looked at and hopefully the main conclusions will be, subs through the middle of the pitch (says in in rules anyway, unless injured, player can leave at nearest point) subs off first before putting subs on.
Adding 20 seconds for each sub, 10 subs overall would put on just over 3 minutes as a bare minimum (should all subs be in the second half) on top of the injury time
Say the chance of a goal in the last minute is 1 in 5. With 15 vs 15 they would have had a 1/5 chance of scoring a goal and winning.
With 15 v 16 they had no chance.
One thing that i'm sick of reading in relation to this is peoples little scenarios about how the game might have ended if it had of been 15 vs 15 at the end.
Have a laugh every time I see one of these
It's one thing saying it - but the most bewildering thing is that people actually sit and take time to type this nonsense out
Yep.
Everyone seems to miss that the scenario is completely irrelevant.
The rules apply for the whole of a game, not most of it.
If a rule was broken the appropriate action has to be taken or else the rules become a joke and no-one follows any of them.
No whether or not the GAA cover themselves in glory when it comes to enforcing their own rules is entirely another question, but for the purposes of this game a rule was broken and action had to be take in accordance with the rules as they are written. It's that simple.
At least the GAA did the decent thing in the end. they defended their own rules. But forcing Wattys to object before launching the investigation was not right.
When is Bradley getting married? McFaul could be available for replay?
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 31, 2023, 03:29:10 PM
The rules apply for the whole of a game, not most of it.
If a rule was broken the appropriate action has to be taken or else the rules become a joke and no-one follows any of them.
No whether or not the GAA cover themselves in glory when it comes to enforcing their own rules is entirely another question, but for the purposes of this game a rule was broken and action had to be take in accordance with the rules as they are written. It's that simple.
Of course the rules should apply for the 6 seconds that Crokes had an extra player.
But Crokes followed the rules to a tee. They did exactly what you are supposed to do when making a sub. However, there was no opportunity for the player to go off. He's standing on the goalline focused on the opponent about to hit the 45 and the ref allows the 45 to be taken before anyone can get word to him. The officials are notified of their error, Mullin is notified and immediately vacates as soon as he's told. Then the officials refuse to allow the 45 to be re-taken and the ref includes absolutely no mention of this fiasco in his report.
But the GAA don't want to throw their ref under the bus, no matter how a big a c**k up he made. And they don't want to go through the hoopla of giving the decision that goes against the social media mobs. So they've made the populist decision.
They've taken the easy way out, knowing full well Crokes will win the appeal, but they've done all they could, so the lawyers and judges can get the blame now when the appeals process is finished and it's confirmed that Crokes won the All Ireland by 2 points and that the ref's (multiple) mistakes, while unfortunate, do not warrant punishment for Kilmacud.
Quote from: Hound on January 31, 2023, 03:49:40 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 31, 2023, 03:29:10 PM
The rules apply for the whole of a game, not most of it.
If a rule was broken the appropriate action has to be taken or else the rules become a joke and no-one follows any of them.
No whether or not the GAA cover themselves in glory when it comes to enforcing their own rules is entirely another question, but for the purposes of this game a rule was broken and action had to be take in accordance with the rules as they are written. It's that simple.
Of course the rules should apply for the 6 seconds that Crokes had an extra player.
But Crokes followed the rules to a tee. They did exactly what you are supposed to do when making a sub. However, there was no opportunity for the player to go off. He's standing on the goalline focused on the opponent about to hit the 45 and the ref allows the 45 to be taken before anyone can get word to him. The officials are notified of their error, Mullin is notified and immediately vacates as soon as he's told. Then the officials refuse to allow the 45 to be re-taken and the ref includes absolutely no mention of this fiasco in his report.
But the GAA don't want to throw their ref under the bus, no matter how a big a c**k up he made. And they don't want to go through the hoopla of giving the decision that goes against the social media mobs. So they've made the populist decision.
They've taken the easy way out, knowing full well Crokes will win the appeal, but they've done all they could, so the lawyers and judges can get the blame now when the appeals process is finished and it's confirmed that Crokes won the All Ireland by 2 points and that the ref's (multiple) mistakes, while unfortunate, do not warrant punishment for Kilmacud.
Seconds or minutes, they shouldn't have had 16 active players on the pitch
Mullin was literally 2 metres from being off the pitch!!
Quote from: Hound on January 31, 2023, 03:49:40 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 31, 2023, 03:29:10 PM
The rules apply for the whole of a game, not most of it.
If a rule was broken the appropriate action has to be taken or else the rules become a joke and no-one follows any of them.
No whether or not the GAA cover themselves in glory when it comes to enforcing their own rules is entirely another question, but for the purposes of this game a rule was broken and action had to be take in accordance with the rules as they are written. It's that simple.
Of course the rules should apply for the 6 seconds that Crokes had an extra player.
But Crokes followed the rules to a tee. They did exactly what you are supposed to do when making a sub. However, there was no opportunity for the player to go off. He's standing on the goalline focused on the opponent about to hit the 45 and the ref allows the 45 to be taken before anyone can get word to him. The officials are notified of their error, Mullin is notified and immediately vacates as soon as he's told. Then the officials refuse to allow the 45 to be re-taken and the ref includes absolutely no mention of this fiasco in his report.
But the GAA don't want to throw their ref under the bus, no matter how a big a c**k up he made. And they don't want to go through the hoopla of giving the decision that goes against the social media mobs. So they've made the populist decision.
They've taken the easy way out, knowing full well Crokes will win the appeal, but they've done all they could, so the lawyers and judges can get the blame now when the appeals process is finished and it's confirmed that Crokes won the All Ireland by 2 points and that the ref's (multiple) mistakes, while unfortunate, do not warrant punishment for Kilmacud.
Absolutely, except for the bit where you take the player off ::)
Quote from: Hound on January 31, 2023, 03:49:40 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 31, 2023, 03:29:10 PM
The rules apply for the whole of a game, not most of it.
If a rule was broken the appropriate action has to be taken or else the rules become a joke and no-one follows any of them.
No whether or not the GAA cover themselves in glory when it comes to enforcing their own rules is entirely another question, but for the purposes of this game a rule was broken and action had to be take in accordance with the rules as they are written. It's that simple.
Of course the rules should apply for the 6 seconds that Crokes had an extra player.
But Crokes followed the rules to a tee. They did exactly what you are supposed to do when making a sub. However, there was no opportunity for the player to go off. He's standing on the goalline focused on the opponent about to hit the 45 and the ref allows the 45 to be taken before anyone can get word to him. The officials are notified of their error, Mullin is notified and immediately vacates as soon as he's told. Then the officials refuse to allow the 45 to be re-taken and the ref includes absolutely no mention of this fiasco in his report.
But the GAA don't want to throw their ref under the bus, no matter how a big a c**k up he made. And they don't want to go through the hoopla of giving the decision that goes against the social media mobs. So they've made the populist decision.
They've taken the easy way out, knowing full well Crokes will win the appeal, but they've done all they could, so the lawyers and judges can get the blame now when the appeals process is finished and it's confirmed that Crokes won the All Ireland by 2 points and that the ref's (multiple) mistakes, while unfortunate, do not warrant punishment for Kilmacud.
Knowning the GAA they will give the referee O'Mahony the replay? 🙄
Quote from: JoG2 on January 31, 2023, 03:55:05 PM
Seconds or minutes, they shouldn't have had 16 active players on the pitch
Mullin was literally 2 metres from being off the pitch!!
Quote from: Franko on January 31, 2023, 04:05:01 PM
Absolutely, except for the bit where you take the player off ::)
Amazing insights lads.
How exactly were Crokes supposed to get word to Mullin?
Crokes management are at the half way line. They fully expect the sub to tell Mullin, but the ref allows the quick 45 to proceed before he gets there.
There's not a single player on either side looking to see what's happening on the sideline, including Mullin. They are all 100% concentrating on the Glen man lining up the 45 and thinking about how to create or stop a scoring chance.
The ref is obliged to stop play until the process is complete. He failed to do that. He failed to rectify it. He failed to mention it in his report. The DRA will lay all the blame on him, and deservedly so.
Kilmacud probably can't believe their luck that the majority of the public seem to think it was an accident to leave the extra body on the goal line
Quote from: Hound on January 31, 2023, 04:15:19 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 31, 2023, 03:55:05 PM
Seconds or minutes, they shouldn't have had 16 active players on the pitch
Mullin was literally 2 metres from being off the pitch!!
Quote from: Franko on January 31, 2023, 04:05:01 PM
Absolutely, except for the bit where you take the player off ::)
Amazing insights lads.
How exactly were Crokes supposed to get word to Mullin?
Crokes management are at the half way line. They fully expect the sub to tell Mullin, but the ref allows the quick 45 to proceed before he gets there.
There's not a single player on either side looking to see what's happening on the sideline, including Mullin. They are all 100% concentrating on the Glen man lining up the 45 and thinking about how to create or stop a scoring chance.
The ref is obliged to stop play until the process is complete. He failed to do that. He failed to rectify it. He failed to mention it in his report. The DRA will lay all the blame on him, and deservedly so.
How did Mullin know to go to the goal line? There was no guidance from management and he is a full forward . Would it be ancestral memory that led him there for 6 seconds ?
Those who questioned why Glass and Doherty went straight into Derry training are left with egg on their faces now. Their players are still in full season mode while Kilmacud players are taking foreign holidays. If this gets fixed in the next few weeks Glen will have a great chance to avenge the first defeat.
There's massive PA system in croke park I'm sure the substation was announced - yet the player didn't leave the pitch
I can understand Mullin not getting word to come off in time before the quick 45 was taken. When this happens, what is the oncoming sub doing (can't recall the name right now)?
I think that if he realised his man hadn't come off, and that he should stand out of the way of the action like Mannion did, there wouldn't be much for Glen to object to.
Quote from: Ulster Frank on January 31, 2023, 03:38:15 PM
When is Bradley getting married? McFaul could be available for replay?
I see a few more aliases/WUM are popping up over the past few weeks.
Kerry for Sams,Eire Og , etc etc must be a least a dozen at this stage.
wonderful job by the Mods >:(
Can we go back to the days when this was a must go to GAA Blog, before it is too late.
Quote from: Hound on January 31, 2023, 04:15:19 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 31, 2023, 03:55:05 PM
Seconds or minutes, they shouldn't have had 16 active players on the pitch
Mullin was literally 2 metres from being off the pitch!!
Quote from: Franko on January 31, 2023, 04:05:01 PM
Absolutely, except for the bit where you take the player off ::)
Amazing insights lads.
How exactly were Crokes supposed to get word to Mullin?
Crokes management are at the half way line. They fully expect the sub to tell Mullin, but the ref allows the quick 45 to proceed before he gets there.
There's not a single player on either side looking to see what's happening on the sideline, including Mullin. They are all 100% concentrating on the Glen man lining up the 45 and thinking about how to create or stop a scoring chance.
The ref is obliged to stop play until the process is complete. He failed to do that. He failed to rectify it. He failed to mention it in his report. The DRA will lay all the blame on him, and deservedly so.
Are you serious?
The big feckin board that the 4th official holds up with the numbers on it
Or the PA system
Or the big screen in CP
I said before - I don't think Kilmacud were deliberately cheating
But they are certainly guilty of being INCREDIBLY careless
Quote from: Franko on January 31, 2023, 04:44:37 PM
Quote from: Hound on January 31, 2023, 04:15:19 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 31, 2023, 03:55:05 PM
Seconds or minutes, they shouldn't have had 16 active players on the pitch
Mullin was literally 2 metres from being off the pitch!!
Quote from: Franko on January 31, 2023, 04:05:01 PM
Absolutely, except for the bit where you take the player off ::)
Amazing insights lads.
How exactly were Crokes supposed to get word to Mullin?
Crokes management are at the half way line. They fully expect the sub to tell Mullin, but the ref allows the quick 45 to proceed before he gets there.
There's not a single player on either side looking to see what's happening on the sideline, including Mullin. They are all 100% concentrating on the Glen man lining up the 45 and thinking about how to create or stop a scoring chance.
The ref is obliged to stop play until the process is complete. He failed to do that. He failed to rectify it. He failed to mention it in his report. The DRA will lay all the blame on him, and deservedly so.
Are you serious?
The big feckin board that the 4th official holds up with the numbers on it
Or the PA system
Or the big screen in CP
I said before - I don't think Kilmacud were deliberately cheating
But they are certainly guilty of being INCREDIBLY careless
To be fair to Mannion he did look up at the screen the player did go to him, he looked a bit bemused at coming off also, but the other lad went to a position and didn't Mullin didn't look up or across to the sideline, there would have been a good bit of noise going on and who actually looks over at the boards or the big screen when playing, its purely for the supporters the board.
Mullin's made the mistake, KC didn't react to the player not coming off the pitch, the 4th official or referee failed to take the sub off before the last kick and that ended up with this cluster f**k which will end up with KC sending the cup up in a bus to Glen.
Hypothetical scenario
Mullin comes off but Kilmacud don't get the sub on in time
45 is taken and Glen score a goal
Do Kilmacud just roll over and say nothing
"Refereeing mistake, just suck it up and move on"
Do they fcuk
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 04:50:38 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 31, 2023, 04:44:37 PM
Quote from: Hound on January 31, 2023, 04:15:19 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 31, 2023, 03:55:05 PM
Seconds or minutes, they shouldn't have had 16 active players on the pitch
Mullin was literally 2 metres from being off the pitch!!
Quote from: Franko on January 31, 2023, 04:05:01 PM
Absolutely, except for the bit where you take the player off ::)
Amazing insights lads.
How exactly were Crokes supposed to get word to Mullin?
Crokes management are at the half way line. They fully expect the sub to tell Mullin, but the ref allows the quick 45 to proceed before he gets there.
There's not a single player on either side looking to see what's happening on the sideline, including Mullin. They are all 100% concentrating on the Glen man lining up the 45 and thinking about how to create or stop a scoring chance.
The ref is obliged to stop play until the process is complete. He failed to do that. He failed to rectify it. He failed to mention it in his report. The DRA will lay all the blame on him, and deservedly so.
Are you serious?
The big feckin board that the 4th official holds up with the numbers on it
Or the PA system
Or the big screen in CP
I said before - I don't think Kilmacud were deliberately cheating
But they are certainly guilty of being INCREDIBLY careless
To be fair to Mannion he did look up at the screen the player did go to him, he looked a bit bemused at coming off also, but the other lad went to a position and didn't Mullin didn't look up or across to the sideline, there would have been a good bit of noise going on and who actually looks over at the boards or the big screen when playing, its purely for the supporters the board.
Mullin's made the mistake, KC didn't react to the player not coming off the pitch, the 4th official or referee failed to take the sub off before the last kick and that ended up with this cluster f**k which will end up with KC sending the cup up in a bus to Glen.
They'll look over the next time
Quote from: Hound on January 31, 2023, 04:15:19 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 31, 2023, 03:55:05 PM
Seconds or minutes, they shouldn't have had 16 active players on the pitch
Mullin was literally 2 metres from being off the pitch!!
Quote from: Franko on January 31, 2023, 04:05:01 PM
Absolutely, except for the bit where you take the player off ::)
Amazing insights lads.
How exactly were Crokes supposed to get word to Mullin?
Crokes management are at the half way line. They fully expect the sub to tell Mullin, but the ref allows the quick 45 to proceed before he gets there.
There's not a single player on either side looking to see what's happening on the sideline, including Mullin. They are all 100% concentrating on the Glen man lining up the 45 and thinking about how to create or stop a scoring chance.
The ref is obliged to stop play until the process is complete. He failed to do that. He failed to rectify it. He failed to mention it in his report. The DRA will lay all the blame on him, and deservedly so.
I actually don't disagree with you about the failings of the officials, or do I disagree on the actions of KC tbh.
Officials messed up big time.
The outcome of that was that the game proceeded in contravention to the rules, so the rules still have to be applied.
The easy option for the GAA would to have immediately called a replay rather than this circus, and I don't think too many could have argued.
I also can't see how this gets thrown out on appeal. The rule is black and white and the rule was obviously broken.
By doing anything other than a replay, the GAA would be apportioning blame. Of the 3 options available, fining KC or overturning the result would be entirely unfair on KC given the whole think could have been avoided if officials had done their job properly.
However, Glen are entirely entitled to see the rules implemented.
KC might feel hard done by and perhaps they are, but equally Glen can feel hard done by as KC had 17 players on the pitch.
Replay is fair...we'll have to wait and see if it happens.
Quote from: joemamas on January 31, 2023, 04:36:42 PM
Quote from: Ulster Frank on January 31, 2023, 03:38:15 PM
When is Bradley getting married? McFaul could be available for replay?
I see a few more aliases/WUM are popping up over the past few weeks.
Kerry for Sams,Eire Og , etc etc must be a least a dozen at this stage.
wonderful job by the Mods >:(
Can we go back to the days when this was a must go to GAA Blog, before it is too late.
What are you on about? Emmett Bradley to get married in mid February.
Quote from: Hound on January 31, 2023, 03:49:40 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 31, 2023, 03:29:10 PM
The rules apply for the whole of a game, not most of it.
If a rule was broken the appropriate action has to be taken or else the rules become a joke and no-one follows any of them.
No whether or not the GAA cover themselves in glory when it comes to enforcing their own rules is entirely another question, but for the purposes of this game a rule was broken and action had to be take in accordance with the rules as they are written. It's that simple.
Of course the rules should apply for the 6 seconds that Crokes had an extra player.
But Crokes followed the rules to a tee. They did exactly what you are supposed to do when making a sub. However, there was no opportunity for the player to go off. He's standing on the goalline focused on the opponent about to hit the 45 and the ref allows the 45 to be taken before anyone can get word to him. The officials are notified of their error, Mullin is notified and immediately vacates as soon as he's told. Then the officials refuse to allow the 45 to be re-taken and the ref includes absolutely no mention of this fiasco in his report.
But the GAA don't want to throw their ref under the bus, no matter how a big a c**k up he made. And they don't want to go through the hoopla of giving the decision that goes against the social media mobs. So they've made the populist decision.
They've taken the easy way out, knowing full well Crokes will win the appeal, but they've done all they could, so the lawyers and judges can get the blame now when the appeals process is finished and it's confirmed that Crokes won the All Ireland by 2 points and that the ref's (multiple) mistakes, while unfortunate, do not warrant punishment for Kilmacud.
How do you figure this? If there's anything that's a near certainty in the GAA, it's that appeals rarely win. And especially so in an objection situation like this where the issue was easily seen. It'll have to be a paperwork messed up kind of thing, otherwise no chance Crokes win an appeal.
If I'm a Glen player or a Kilmacud player I have no interest in playing this match again. If I'm a committee member I might look at it differently. There is a disconnect between committee GAA people and those involved in playing and coaching. This row has the capacity to cause deep divisions in both clubs. It is largely media (and social media in particular) driven and I'd say without the input of Joe Brolly it probably wouldn't have gained anywhere near as much traction.
Quote from: Ulster Frank on January 31, 2023, 04:57:32 PM
Quote from: joemamas on January 31, 2023, 04:36:42 PM
Quote from: Ulster Frank on January 31, 2023, 03:38:15 PM
When is Bradley getting married? McFaul could be available for replay?
I see a few more aliases/WUM are popping up over the past few weeks.
Kerry for Sams,Eire Og , etc etc must be a least a dozen at this stage.
wonderful job by the Mods >:(
Can we go back to the days when this was a must go to GAA Blog, before it is too late.
What are you on about? Emmett Bradley to get married in mid February.
Irish times
The Saturday of the blank football weekend on February 11th and 12th is also the date for Glen centrefielder Emmett Bradley's wedding. The next blank weekend for the NFL is a month later, March 11th and 12th.
The only way Kilmacud are champions with honour is play the replay and win. Anything else and its tainted!
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 05:02:40 PM
Quote from: Ulster Frank on January 31, 2023, 04:57:32 PM
Quote from: joemamas on January 31, 2023, 04:36:42 PM
Quote from: Ulster Frank on January 31, 2023, 03:38:15 PM
When is Bradley getting married? McFaul could be available for replay?
I see a few more aliases/WUM are popping up over the past few weeks.
Kerry for Sams,Eire Og , etc etc must be a least a dozen at this stage.
wonderful job by the Mods >:(
Can we go back to the days when this was a must go to GAA Blog, before it is too late.
What are you on about? Emmett Bradley to get married in mid February.
Irish times
The Saturday of the blank football weekend on February 11th and 12th is also the date for Glen centrefielder Emmett Bradley's wedding. The next blank weekend for the NFL is a month later, March 11th and 12th.
Play it in March. Let the lad enjoy his wedding.
Quote from: yellowcard on January 31, 2023, 05:01:39 PM
If I'm a Glen player or a Kilmacud player I have no interest in playing this match again. If I'm a committee member I might look at it differently. There is a disconnect between committee GAA people and those involved in playing and coaching. This row has the capacity to cause deep divisions in both clubs. It is largely media (and social media in particular) driven and I'd say without the input of Joe Brolly it probably wouldn't have gained anywhere near as much traction.
This is so true. I'd be surprised if the Glenn players to a man agree with this decision and even now how would you approach this game with all the negativity swirling around it?
Some Glenn players just won't want to be there and certainly motivation could be very low within the camp.
There are no winners.
Quote from: johnnycool on January 31, 2023, 05:15:24 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 31, 2023, 05:01:39 PM
If I'm a Glen player or a Kilmacud player I have no interest in playing this match again. If I'm a committee member I might look at it differently. There is a disconnect between committee GAA people and those involved in playing and coaching. This row has the capacity to cause deep divisions in both clubs. It is largely media (and social media in particular) driven and I'd say without the input of Joe Brolly it probably wouldn't have gained anywhere near as much traction.
This is so true. I'd be surprised if the Glenn players to a man agree with this decision and even now how would you approach this game with all the negativity swirling around it?
Some Glenn players just won't want to be there and certainly motivation could be very low within the camp.
There are no winners.
It wouldn't have to be played immediately. The last 10 days or so have been very emotional . Plus it's a long season.
Quote from: yellowcard on January 31, 2023, 05:01:39 PM
If I'm a Glen player or a Kilmacud player I have no interest in playing this match again. If I'm a committee member I might look at it differently. There is a disconnect between committee GAA people and those involved in playing and coaching. This row has the capacity to cause deep divisions in both clubs. It is largely media (and social media in particular) driven and I'd say without the input of Joe Brolly it probably wouldn't have gained anywhere near as much traction.
His comments doesn't have that much of an influence. It drew such traction with the images posted of the extra players on the field.
I'll be surprised if this match is eventually replayed. kilmacud crokes on their appeal will ship the blame towards the officials.
If KC refuse to replay they will have to be stripped of their title. There is no point in replaying a match that has been won according to the rules.
I think that is what today's decision means.
The only way KC could have been champions would have been with a fine.
i think most neutrals are bored of the whole thing now anyway.
If Glen win it through KC refusing to play the replay will it have a big Asterisk or a small one beside it? Would they celebrate it?
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/31/gaas-hands-were-tied-once-glen-objected-but-nothing-inevitable-about-replay/
Seán Moran
Tue Jan 31 2023 - 18:25
Could this all have come at a worse time for the GAA? For a start there has been the low-frequency embarrassment of the matter playing out for more than a week – and for who knows how much longer.
Then, arises the fundamental problem of fitting a replay into a spring-loaded schedule that confidently made no provision for a second day, having ordained "winner on the day" protocols for the All-Ireland club finals.
[ GAA orders replay of All-Ireland final between Kilmacud Crokes and Glen ]
As a result, players have gone on holidays and regathering everyone will take time. The replay if it is to take place is most likely to happen on the weekend of March 12th, which is a rest weekend for the football league.
On Tuesday the Central Competitions Control Committee issued its decision. It has been the subject of much criticism over past week and a half for failing to make a decisive intervention and cut off the controversy's supply of oxygen.
If they were taking precedent into account, they were correct to wait. Objecting to an All-Ireland final outcome is a big step to take and if the noises from Croke Park since shortly after the final suggested a replay would be the most likely remedy, there was also the hope that this would not be triggered.
To be fair to the authorities, they had precedent in support of this stance. The 1995 All-Ireland final had seen Dublin's Charlie Redmond sent off but remain on the field of play. The incident is an interesting illustration of the elasticity of time or at least its perception.
Almost immediately his illicit moments on the field were being estimated at two minutes but pretty quickly, this had stretched to four or five. Even last week when this was being cited in the current context, a national website referred to Redmond spending "three minutes" on the pitch after his dismissal.
It was actually 28 seconds during which time he didn't touch the ball nor did play approach him. By comparison Kilmacud supernumerary Dara Mullin spent 38 illicit seconds on the field before realising he shouldn't be there and making his way off.
Tyrone players decided not to challenge the one-point defeat on such a tenuous basis. "We had our chance to win it and we weren't going to win it in the boardroom," said Peter Canavan on RTÉ a few days ago.
In the club final replay of 2007, Crossmaglen Rangers benefited from an extra player for the final quarter of the match against Dr Crokes of Killarney because the referee hadn't ordered off John McEntee for a second yellow card, shown in the 45th minute.
McEntee was prudently substituted four minutes later and his team completed the match with 14 rather than 13 men – for further complication, two other players, one from either side, were more conventionally sent off during the second half.
Few thought the additional man had impacted on the result (Cross won 0-13 to 1-5) but 15 minutes is a long time compared to 38 seconds and 28 seconds.
In the aftermath, inevitably the question of an objection was posed. "Absolutely not. That is not our form. The bottom line is I have gone in and congratulated them," said Croke's manager, Pat O'Shea when dismissing the possibility.
At the time of writing it's not clear what the Dublin champions will do about the decision. They can go to the Central Appeals Committee but in the absence of any obvious procedural flaw, the most likely destination is the Disputes Resolution Authority.
It is not unreasonable for the CCCC to wait until an aggrieved club decides how badly they want the remedy. Should the committee or its predecessors have intervened in the above cases regardless of the wishes of the defeated team?
It's worth noting that whereas Tyrone in 1995 were faced with an impossible choice, as rules at that time would have required Dublin on objection to forfeit the title, Dr Crokes' were subject to the current, more nuanced rule book with its range of penalties and could have pushed for – and almost certainly secured – a replay
Once activated by Glen's objection, the CCCC's task was straightforward. They had to adjudicate on whether there had been 16 players on the field, which didn't take long, and the next question was which of the three penalties to impose.
It had already been intimated that a replay would be their choice – "depending on circumstances" being taken to mean that there were just two points separating the teams rather than what actually happened in the 38 seconds that Mullin remained on the field and whether he could realistically be said to have influenced the outcome.
This is "strict liability" reading of Rule 6.44. It wasn't necessary for Kilmacud to have done anything wrong – the GAA acknowledged the failings of the match officials in allowing this to happen – just for there to have been too many players on the field.
ADVERTISEMENT
Once that was determined and there had been less than a score in the difference, there was no choice but to come to the decision they did.
Kilmacud's contention that the referee's report is "sacrosanct", whereas broadly true doesn't take into account that certain matters can be raised after a match and this is one of them, as provided by the rules.
At the time of writing it's not clear what the Dublin champions will do about the decision. They can go to the Central Appeals Committee but in the absence of any obvious procedural flaw, the most likely destination is the Disputes Resolution Authority.
Coincidentally, the very first issue heard by the DRA involved Kilmacud Crokes and their Dublin player, Mark Vaughan and whether the county championship was the same competition as the provincial championship for the purposes of suspension.
It wasn't and Kilmacud won the DRA's very first decision. They'll be most anxious to win what may well be the tribunal's next case.
Would KC feel right winning the title with extra players? If the replay didn't happen, would it feel tainted?
Quote from: RedHand88 on January 31, 2023, 08:16:43 PM
Would KC feel right winning the title with extra players? If the replay didn't happen, would it feel tainted?
They seemed ok after the final. Knowing they did have an extra player as that came out on the sideline at the time didn't it?
Quote from: Eire90 on January 31, 2023, 06:42:57 PM
i think most neutrals are bored of the whole thing now anyway.
Plus one for this
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 06:46:35 PM
If Glen win it through KC refusing to play the replay will it have a big Asterisk or a small one beside it? Would they celebrate it?
Kilmacud just pull a Chelsea and plays the cash on transfers and win it next year no biggy to them
Croke park played a blinder here, say or do nothing and if it doesn't go away and their hand is forced no one will want a replay by that stage. Those monkeys at Jones road are natural born politicians.
Quote from: An Fhairche Abu on January 31, 2023, 08:26:47 PM
Quote from: Eire90 on January 31, 2023, 06:42:57 PM
i think most neutrals are bored of the whole thing now anyway.
Plus one for this
Not sure about this
If this board is anything to go by
I don't know if there's a Glen or Crokes man on here
But we've still had 10-odd pages of discussion today alone
**Edit
Driven, for the most part, by a Galway man
Rest of us more interested in our teams in the NFL.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 06:46:35 PM
If Glen win it through KC refusing to play the replay will it have a big Asterisk or a small one beside it? Would they celebrate it?
What do you think.
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 31, 2023, 08:56:34 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 06:46:35 PM
If Glen win it through KC refusing to play the replay will it have a big Asterisk or a small one beside it? Would they celebrate it?
What do you think.
Personally I don't care, we've won it already on the pitch ;)
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 09:05:40 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 31, 2023, 08:56:34 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 06:46:35 PM
If Glen win it through KC refusing to play the replay will it have a big Asterisk or a small one beside it? Would they celebrate it?
What do you think.
Personally I don't care, we've won it already on the pitch ;)
Lol - you asked the question
;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Franko on January 31, 2023, 09:07:15 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 09:05:40 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 31, 2023, 08:56:34 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 06:46:35 PM
If Glen win it through KC refusing to play the replay will it have a big Asterisk or a small one beside it? Would they celebrate it?
What do you think.
Personally I don't care, we've won it already on the pitch ;)
Lol - you asked the question
;D ;D ;D
I'm gauging opinion... plenty of interviewers ask questions but don't need to give answers. I personally don't care as I'm neither from Glen or KC
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 09:05:40 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 31, 2023, 08:56:34 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 06:46:35 PM
If Glen win it through KC refusing to play the replay will it have a big Asterisk or a small one beside it? Would they celebrate it?
What do you think.
Personally I don't care, we've won it already on the pitch ;)
Should be an asterix beside that for playing a Clare team ;D
Quote from: Walter Cronc on January 31, 2023, 09:10:52 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 09:05:40 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 31, 2023, 08:56:34 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 06:46:35 PM
If Glen win it through KC refusing to play the replay will it have a big Asterisk or a small one beside it? Would they celebrate it?
What do you think.
Personally I don't care, we've won it already on the pitch ;)
Should be an asterix beside that for playing a Clare team ;D
Beat a decent Derry team along the way ;D
What sort of fine would hurt KC ?
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2023, 09:15:02 PM
What sort of fine would hurt KC ?
Have to be 8 figures for them boys to even notice ;)
If KC refuse to play the replay, Dublin clubs should be banned from the 2023 Provincial Club Championship and Dublin footballers should be kicked out of the 2023 Championship.
Then what was 6 months of senior club fball for if they don't replay the game. Crokes will play when push comes to a shove. Didn't bring Walsh in for nothing, and a fair bit of expense in the bck ground for both teams. A null and void does either team no good. The longer the delay, the more off the pace the teams will be. GAA should called Replay last week with the game last wkend. Hoped it all blow over.
Quote from: blanketattack on January 31, 2023, 09:44:19 PM
If KC refuse to play the replay, Dublin clubs should be banned from the 2023 Provincial Club Championship and Dublin footballers should be kicked out of the 2023 Championship.
go for a lie down, enough internet for one day 🙄
Am I the only south Derry man who shares the same opinion as Malachy O'Rourke and Peter Canavan?
Won and lost on the pitch.
Quote from: blanketattack on January 31, 2023, 09:44:19 PM
If KC refuse to play the replay, Dublin clubs should be banned from the 2023 Provincial Club Championship and Dublin footballers should be kicked out of the 2023 Championship.
🤣🤣🤣
The absolute correct legal decision was made, anyone who doesn't see that has little understanding of rules of the game. I am content with that CCC decision, I would have been absolutely shocked at their ineptitude had they decided otherwise. All 'scenario' counter arguments are nonsensical.
Personally I didn't understand the purpose of Glenn's objection, I doubt if they really thought it through and I doubt if there were full consultations with the manager and players before making the objection.
There is one possible outcome, the final will not be replayed, the final proper declared null and void, Crokes are stripped of their victory.
Anyone else getting annoyed by the misspelling of Glen / An Gleann?
https://twitter.com/michealbriody/status/1620428679607377920?s=46&t=MvzxVoR0CHKUXho4LbvmDg
Quote from: Champion The Wonder Horse on January 31, 2023, 10:15:53 PM
Am I the only south Derry man who shares the same opinion as Malachy O'Rourke and Peter Canavan?
Won and lost on the pitch.
The ref fcuked it. Penalty given for a non foul outside the box when Glen had the game won. End of.
Quote from: Main Street on January 31, 2023, 11:09:51 PM
The absolute correct legal decision was made, anyone who doesn't see that has little understanding of rules of the game. I am content with that CCC decision, I would have been absolutely shocked at their ineptitude had they decided otherwise. All 'scenario' counter arguments are nonsensical.
Personally I didn't understand the purpose of Glenn's objection, I doubt if they really thought it through and I doubt if there were full consultations with the manager and players before making the objection.
There is one possible outcome, the final will not be replayed, the final proper declared null and void, Crokes are stripped of their victory.
Sweet f**king jaysus I agree with the mushroom man
Quote from: Main Street on January 31, 2023, 11:09:51 PM
The absolute correct legal decision was made, anyone who doesn't see that has little understanding of rules of the game. I am content with that CCC decision, I would have been absolutely shocked at their ineptitude had they decided otherwise. All 'scenario' counter arguments are nonsensical.
Personally I didn't understand the purpose of Glenn's objection, I doubt if they really thought it through and I doubt if there were full consultations with the manager and players before making the objection.
There is one possible outcome, the final will not be replayed, the final proper declared null and void, Crokes are stripped of their victory.
In terms of had there been a rule break the correct decision was made. Was the correct sanction imposed I'm not so sure of. When given a range of sanctions you have to start off by looking at the harm caused and the culpability of the offender. With this type of infraction I'm not convinced we can ever know the harm and I think trying to parse it is a slippery slope so instead we have to consider culpability. If either KC or the players involved knew they had too many players on the pitch then I'm fine with a replay if anything I'd be happier with forfeiture than a fine.
If however either it was clear that neither KC nor the players involved knew or that there was no evidence at all as to their knowledge then I question the punishment from a legal point of view. Perhaps not from a moral one.
The questions I now have is how did the CCC arrive at this sanction. What kind of breach is needed for a fine. What kind for expulsion. I think without knowing the explanations it's hard to comprehensively conclude the correct legal decision was a replay. It very well could be but I don't think we can stage that categorically.
Donegal scored a point against Kerry on Sunday where the ball was clearly wide. The rules clearly state that the ref and officials should only award a point when the ball has crossed the bar between the posts. This was a clear breach of the rules and therefore we should probably see a replay now. Donegal shouldn't forfeit the game as it wasn't their fault but neither was it Kerrys so a replay is the fairest outcome. Rules are rules.
Quote from: lenny on February 01, 2023, 07:06:13 AM
Donegal scored a point against Kerry on Sunday where the ball was clearly wide. The rules clearly state that the ref and officials should only award a point when the ball has crossed the bar between the posts. This was a clear breach of the rules and therefore we should probably see a replay now. Donegal shouldn't forfeit the game as it wasn't their fault but neither was it Kerrys so a replay is the fairest outcome. Rules are rules.
Yeah thats how it works!
Quote from: lenny on February 01, 2023, 07:06:13 AM
Donegal scored a point against Kerry on Sunday where the ball was clearly wide. The rules clearly state that the ref and officials should only award a point when the ball has crossed the bar between the posts. This was a clear breach of the rules and therefore we should probably see a replay now. Donegal shouldn't forfeit the game as it wasn't their fault but neither was it Kerrys so a replay is the fairest outcome. Rules are rules.
Except the rules also state that challenges can not be made after the match to the awarding of a score.
Quote from: David McKeown on February 01, 2023, 08:04:40 AM
Quote from: lenny on February 01, 2023, 07:06:13 AM
Donegal scored a point against Kerry on Sunday where the ball was clearly wide. The rules clearly state that the ref and officials should only award a point when the ball has crossed the bar between the posts. This was a clear breach of the rules and therefore we should probably see a replay now. Donegal shouldn't forfeit the game as it wasn't their fault but neither was it Kerrys so a replay is the fairest outcome. Rules are rules.
Except the rules also state that challenges can not be made after the match to the awarding of a score.
They can't really be mad during a game either.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 09:09:54 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 31, 2023, 09:07:15 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 09:05:40 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 31, 2023, 08:56:34 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 06:46:35 PM
If Glen win it through KC refusing to play the replay will it have a big Asterisk or a small one beside it? Would they celebrate it?
What do you think.
Personally I don't care, we've won it already on the pitch ;)
Lol - you asked the question
;D ;D ;D
I'm gauging opinion... plenty of interviewers ask questions but don't need to give answers. I personally don't care as I'm neither from Glen or KC
Riiiiiight
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 06:46:35 PM
If Glen win it through KC refusing to play the replay will it have a big Asterisk or a small one beside it? Would they celebrate it?
KC celebrated winning with extra players on the pitch. So why not?
Quote from: RedHand88 on February 01, 2023, 08:54:19 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 06:46:35 PM
If Glen win it through KC refusing to play the replay will it have a big Asterisk or a small one beside it? Would they celebrate it?
KC celebrated winning with extra players on the pitch. So why not?
Hopefully Croke bring them down to receive the cup in the Hogan Stand, be the least they can do
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2023, 06:46:35 PM
If Glen win it through KC refusing to play the replay will it have a big Asterisk or a small one beside it? Would they celebrate it?
A big one.
"Kilmacud Crokes, Dublin" is already engraved on the trophy so they're going to need a huge asterisk to cover that up.
We're hardly gone accept it if KC got stripped ffs ;D
How many GAA finals have an asterisk beside them? I know Mayo people are sore about the 1925 all Ireland. They were the 1925 Connacht champions but Galway were the 1925 all Ireland champions...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1925_All-Ireland_Senior_Football_Championship_Final
There was no All-Ireland Senior Football Championship Final in 1925. The 1925 All-Ireland Senior Football Championship ended in chaos, with first Mayo, and then Galway being proclaimed champions after Kerry and Cavan were disqualified. Instead, a new inter-provincial tournament was organised by the GAA Central Council, of which the final was played between Galway and Cavan on 10 January 1926.
Quote from: Walter Cronc on February 01, 2023, 09:34:22 AM
We're hardly gone accept it if KC got stripped ffs ;D
KC would only get stripped of the title if they refused a replay.
A forfeit would not be fair to Wattys. A replay is the only way to save the match I think
Quote from: David McKeown on February 01, 2023, 08:04:40 AM
Quote from: lenny on February 01, 2023, 07:06:13 AM
Donegal scored a point against Kerry on Sunday where the ball was clearly wide. The rules clearly state that the ref and officials should only award a point when the ball has crossed the bar between the posts. This was a clear breach of the rules and therefore we should probably see a replay now. Donegal shouldn't forfeit the game as it wasn't their fault but neither was it Kerrys so a replay is the fairest outcome. Rules are rules.
Except the rules also state that challenges can not be made after the match to the awarding of a score.
It reminds me of the old adage of not to expect justice when you go to the courts, all you will ever get is the law. The same could apply to how justice has been administered in this instance given the countless previous incidents of injustice.
I hear theat members of the CCCC aren't happy with the lack of leadership from the top on this issue.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/02/01/kilmacud-mull-over-gaa-decision-to-order-a-replay-of-final/
"It is believed there are differing opinions within the Stillorgan club as to what move they should make next. An appeal to the CAC is unlikely to prove successful and so it would be more a means to an end as regards Crokes navigating through the GAA's disciplinary process to arrive at the Disputes Resolution Authority.
The CAC rules largely on procedural grounds and the GAA's Official Guide states appeals shall only be upheld where: '(i) there has been a clear infringement or misapplication of Rule by the Decision-Maker or (ii) the Appellant's right to a fair hearing has otherwise been compromised to such extent that a clear injustice has occurred.'"
Quote from: seafoid on February 01, 2023, 09:43:33 AM
How many GAA finals have an asterisk beside them? I know Mayo people are sore about the 1925 all Ireland. They were the 1925 Connacht champions but Galway were the 1925 all Ireland champions...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1925_All-Ireland_Senior_Football_Championship_Final
There was no All-Ireland Senior Football Championship Final in 1925. The 1925 All-Ireland Senior Football Championship ended in chaos, with first Mayo, and then Galway being proclaimed champions after Kerry and Cavan were disqualified. Instead, a new inter-provincial tournament was organised by the GAA Central Council, of which the final was played between Galway and Cavan on 10 January 1926.
Some book about the founding and early days of the GAA, I read a few years back had a good bit on disputes and finals and stuff decided in committee meetings on rules. Can't remember the specifics off-hand but there was a right chunk of the early championships that could have different results based on what was decided in committee meetings. It's pretty much one of the longest running traditions of the Association at this stage.
Quote from: twohands!!! on February 01, 2023, 11:48:27 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 01, 2023, 09:43:33 AM
How many GAA finals have an asterisk beside them? I know Mayo people are sore about the 1925 all Ireland. They were the 1925 Connacht champions but Galway were the 1925 all Ireland champions...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1925_All-Ireland_Senior_Football_Championship_Final
There was no All-Ireland Senior Football Championship Final in 1925. The 1925 All-Ireland Senior Football Championship ended in chaos, with first Mayo, and then Galway being proclaimed champions after Kerry and Cavan were disqualified. Instead, a new inter-provincial tournament was organised by the GAA Central Council, of which the final was played between Galway and Cavan on 10 January 1926.
Some book about the founding and early days of the GAA, I read a few years back had a good bit on disputes and finals and stuff decided in committee meetings on rules. Can't remember the specifics off-hand but there was a right chunk of the early championships that could have different results based on what was decided in committee meetings. It's pretty much one of the longest running traditions of the Association at this stage.
So no prospect of the GAA getting its shit together with respect to rules and regulations any time soon then? :)
Quote from: J70 on February 01, 2023, 11:53:33 AM
Quote from: twohands!!! on February 01, 2023, 11:48:27 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 01, 2023, 09:43:33 AM
How many GAA finals have an asterisk beside them? I know Mayo people are sore about the 1925 all Ireland. They were the 1925 Connacht champions but Galway were the 1925 all Ireland champions...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1925_All-Ireland_Senior_Football_Championship_Final
There was no All-Ireland Senior Football Championship Final in 1925. The 1925 All-Ireland Senior Football Championship ended in chaos, with first Mayo, and then Galway being proclaimed champions after Kerry and Cavan were disqualified. Instead, a new inter-provincial tournament was organised by the GAA Central Council, of which the final was played between Galway and Cavan on 10 January 1926.
Some book about the founding and early days of the GAA, I read a few years back had a good bit on disputes and finals and stuff decided in committee meetings on rules. Can't remember the specifics off-hand but there was a right chunk of the early championships that could have different results based on what was decided in committee meetings. It's pretty much one of the longest running traditions of the Association at this stage.
So no prospect of the GAA getting its shit together with respect to rules and regulations any time soon then? :)
These things take time!!
Forgive me if its already been discussed (I haven't read all of the thread), but is there any reason why the GAA can't do substitutions the way they do them in soccer?
At the halfway point on the sideline, players come off before substitute goes on. Ref or linesman oversees it?
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/02/01/kilmacud-mull-over-gaa-decision-to-order-a-replay-of-final/
Anatomy of a controversy
(Three minutes of added time were announced for the end of the game. The following timelines are taken from TG4′s live coverage)
61:39 – As Glen goalkeeper Connlan Bradley prepares to take his kickout, a wide camera angle shows two Kilmacud subs on the sideline waiting to be introduced.
62:09 – Conor Ferris makes a brilliant save from a Conor Glass shot, the Kilmacud goalkeeper steering the ball behind for a 45.
62:44 – As Danny Tallon prepares to take the resulting 45, he is alerted to Kilmacud substitutions by a linesman standing on the 45-metre line, with his flag raised. Tallon looks over towards the Hogan Stand sideline, from where the players are emerging.
62:52 – The camera shows sub Tom Fox, wearing 10, entering the fray and running towards the Kilmacud goal. The graphic says Fox is replacing Mannion.
63:03 – Camera switches to Mannion, who is close to goal. As Fox jogs by him, Mannion initially looks confused. He turns and appears to look up at the big screen.
63:07 – Mannion, realising he was being replaced, starts jogging away from goal.
63:09 – Camera changes to sub Conor Casey, wearing 19, entering the pitch and running towards the Kilmacud goal. The graphic says Casey is replacing Dara Mullin.
63:14 – Casey arrives in the large square and goes to take up a central position. He quickly turns around to face the ball just as the whistle goes for play to resume.
63:17 – Referee Derek O'Mahoney blows his whistle for Tallon to take the 45. Tallon goes short to McGuckian. When the kick is taken, Mannion is still on the field but standing out near the sideline.
McGuckian fires in a low shot from the 20m line, which bounces just wide of the left post. The ball whizzes by Fox, who is standing on the edge of the small parallelogram. Mullin is one of three Kilmacud players standing on the goal-line, along with Theo Clancy and Cillian O'Shea, as the ball goes wide. Both Fox and Mullin start jogging out the field with the rest of the players to prepare for the kickout.
63:47 – Having seemingly been made aware that Crokes have too many players on the field, O'Mahoney holds his right hand aloft and delays Ferris from taking the kickout as he orders Mullin off the field. Mullin, by that stage between the 45m and 65m lines, starts making his way over towards the sideline. Using the TG4 timeline, Mullin was on the field erroneously for 38 seconds – though there would have been a few seconds either side of when the camera focused on him going off and Casey going on.
63:58 – The referee watches Mullin make his way to the sideline before taking down his hand. He then blows the whistle for the kickout to proceed.
64:05 – The final whistle is blown.
Quote from: J70 on February 01, 2023, 11:59:24 AM
Forgive me if its already been discussed (I haven't read all of the thread), but is there any reason why the GAA can't do substitutions the way they do them in soccer?
At the halfway point on the sideline, players come off before substitute goes on. Ref or linesman oversees it?
I think thats how they are meant to happen bar injury the player leaves at nearest point
Quote from: J70 on February 01, 2023, 11:59:24 AM
Forgive me if its already been discussed (I haven't read all of the thread), but is there any reason why the GAA can't do substitutions the way they do them in soccer?
At the halfway point on the sideline, players come off before substitute goes on. Ref or linesman oversees it?
I believe that is exactly what Kilmacud would have wanted when they made those substitutes. Slow walk off a la soccer with 30 seconds wasted while the substituted player reaches the sideline. It was a time wasting exercise designed to allow them to reset and get back into formation. We need to decide if that is what we want because teams will simply use this to their advantage to run down the clock and reorganise before a free kick.
I personally wouldn't want to see this but if it does get introduced it needs to be in conjunction with a stop clock which imo is long overdue in the game anyway to eradicate blatant time wasting particularly during black card periods and in the latter stages of matches.
Quote from: yellowcard on February 01, 2023, 12:16:10 PM
Quote from: J70 on February 01, 2023, 11:59:24 AM
Forgive me if its already been discussed (I haven't read all of the thread), but is there any reason why the GAA can't do substitutions the way they do them in soccer?
At the halfway point on the sideline, players come off before substitute goes on. Ref or linesman oversees it?
I believe that is exactly what Kilmacud would have wanted when they made those substitutes. Slow walk off a la soccer with 30 seconds wasted while the substituted player reaches the sideline. It was a time wasting exercise designed to allow them to reset and get back into formation. We need to decide if that is what we want because teams will simply use this to their advantage to run down the clock and reorganise before a free kick.
I personally wouldn't want to see this but if it does get introduced it needs to be in conjunction with a stop clock which imo is long overdue in the game anyway to eradicate blatant time wasting particularly during black card periods and in the latter stages of matches.
They may go back to the 3 subs rule.
Multiple subs at the fag end of matches is gamesmanship aka shithousery.
Quote from: yellowcard on February 01, 2023, 12:16:10 PM
Quote from: J70 on February 01, 2023, 11:59:24 AM
Forgive me if its already been discussed (I haven't read all of the thread), but is there any reason why the GAA can't do substitutions the way they do them in soccer?
At the halfway point on the sideline, players come off before substitute goes on. Ref or linesman oversees it?
I believe that is exactly what Kilmacud would have wanted when they made those substitutes. Slow walk off a la soccer with 30 seconds wasted while the substituted player reaches the sideline. It was a time wasting exercise designed to allow them to reset and get back into formation. We need to decide if that is what we want because teams will simply use this to their advantage to run down the clock and reorganise before a free kick.
I personally wouldn't want to see this but if it does get introduced it needs to be in conjunction with a stop clock which imo is long overdue in the game anyway to eradicate blatant time wasting particularly during black card periods and in the latter stages of matches.
But any competent ref will add on the time for the substitution. We don't have a 30 second rule, like in soccer, instead the time it takes is added back. Very simple. It doesn't need a stop clock, just a ref who's not incompetent.
A stop clock also won't stop people time wasting during a black card. That needs a rule change (or clarification).
The one thing a public stop clock might help is people's understanding of the rules. If you ever watched a ladies football game, the clock still runs when the ball is out of play and someone is preparing a goal kick or free or sideline. The clock keeps going when someone is getting carded. The clock stops for injuries of course and the ref can signal for the clock to stop for what he perceives is deliberate time wasting, but rare enough this happens.
Quote from: J70 on February 01, 2023, 11:59:24 AM
Forgive me if its already been discussed (I haven't read all of the thread), but is there any reason why the GAA can't do substitutions the way they do them in soccer?
At the halfway point on the sideline, players come off before substitute goes on. Ref or linesman oversees it?
Already in the rules and the procedure is adhered to 99% of the time. Injured players can leave at the nearest point.. But KC should have made sure the ref's and 4th official carried out their procedure that they are meant to have carried out
Quote from: Hound on February 01, 2023, 01:01:50 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 01, 2023, 12:16:10 PM
Quote from: J70 on February 01, 2023, 11:59:24 AM
Forgive me if its already been discussed (I haven't read all of the thread), but is there any reason why the GAA can't do substitutions the way they do them in soccer?
At the halfway point on the sideline, players come off before substitute goes on. Ref or linesman oversees it?
I believe that is exactly what Kilmacud would have wanted when they made those substitutes. Slow walk off a la soccer with 30 seconds wasted while the substituted player reaches the sideline. It was a time wasting exercise designed to allow them to reset and get back into formation. We need to decide if that is what we want because teams will simply use this to their advantage to run down the clock and reorganise before a free kick.
I personally wouldn't want to see this but if it does get introduced it needs to be in conjunction with a stop clock which imo is long overdue in the game anyway to eradicate blatant time wasting particularly during black card periods and in the latter stages of matches.
But any competent ref will add on the time for the substitution. We don't have a 30 second rule, like in soccer, instead the time it takes is added back. Very simple. It doesn't need a stop clock, just a ref who's not incompetent.
A stop clock also won't stop people time wasting during a black card. That needs a rule change (or clarification).
The one thing a public stop clock might help is people's understanding of the rules. If you ever watched a ladies football game, the clock still runs when the ball is out of play and someone is preparing a goal kick or free or sideline. The clock keeps going when someone is getting carded. The clock stops for injuries of course and the ref can signal for the clock to stop for what he perceives is deliberate time wasting, but rare enough this happens.
Where do ya get them? ;)
Interesting one from 2015. Soccerball. England U19 women v Norway!
Norway 2-1 up and deep into injury England are awarded a penalty.
Penalty scored, but an English player encroached into the area.
Goal correctly disallowed - however, the game should have been re-started with a retaken penalty, but instead the ref awarded a free out to Norway and match ended 2-1.
While not exactly covered in the rules, the "Uefa Control, Ethics and Disciplinary Body" decided the fairest thing was to play the remaining time again.
So the same players returned to the pitch (with a different ref!) 5 days later. The penalty was re-taken (and scored) and final 18 seconds were then played, with no more goals, so finished 2-2.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/apr/09/england-women-u19-replay-norway-referee-penalty-howler
Of course, we are very reluctant to follow soccer, no matter how sensible. When Maurice Deegan was on Newstalk earlier in the week, he was asked should we just copy soccer rules for subs? He said we should follow American Football rules for subs! We wasn't even sure what the NFL rules are, but just didn't want to say copy soccer!
Certain commentators eg Declan Bogue
https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/otb-gaa-on-off-the-ball/declan-bogue-no-glen-crokes-replay-likely-no-cup-in-a-taxi-and-no-satisfactory-solution
think there will be no replay.
Surely the calculations of KC change with the recent decision. The CCCC ignored KC's arguments and focused on the rules.
What is in KC's best interest now given that their arguments were holed under the water ?
Quote from: Champion The Wonder Horse on January 31, 2023, 11:15:27 PM
Anyone else getting annoyed by the misspelling of Glen / An Gleann?
It's dreadful
Where are all these precedents of the GAA deciding on a replay and one or both teams refusing to take part?
Every Tom, Dick and Harry are certain there'll be no reply because Glen won't take part or KC won't take part, yet anytime a replay has been ordered in a high profile game, both teams agreed to and took part in the replay.
The replay will happen and both teams will take part. Fact.
Walsh travelling, Mannion injured, Derry lads back to county. Can see it not being played tbh
All student life must be fairly relaxed these days that a man can go travelling!
Quote from: blanketattack on February 01, 2023, 02:15:25 PM
The replay will happen and both teams will take part. Fact.
No that's a prediction!
Well why is this a suprise to anybody. Red cards get appealed all the time to get players off ( not on the fact they done the offence) due to technicalities. Nobody complains cause its getting off their players. The rule book needs updated but them useless bollacks at HQ don't bother. Too worried about the nxt money making concert. The 2 Clare Hurlers the biggest example. Their County board must hardened their edge, as they offered Offaly a replay on the All-Ireland Hurling final in 1998. But there no chance of Crokes doing what Offaly did back them. Again Clare weren't at Fault but the ref. They gave a replay as they thought they beat Offaly.
Quote from: Armagh18 on February 01, 2023, 02:19:16 PM
Walsh travelling, Mannion injured, Derry lads back to county. Can see it not being played tbh
Why not? Doesn't have to be played immediately.
Is Mannion injured again?
Quote from: Armagh18 on February 01, 2023, 02:19:16 PM
Walsh travelling, Mannion injured, Derry lads back to county. Can see it not being played tbh
Kilmacud Crokes did OK with Mannion and Walsh missing the first day, so should cope alright with them missing the replay. :P
Quote from: J70 on February 01, 2023, 11:59:24 AM
Forgive me if its already been discussed (I haven't read all of the thread), but is there any reason why the GAA can't do substitutions the way they do them in soccer?
At the halfway point on the sideline, players come off before substitute goes on. Ref or linesman oversees it?
You see how long it takes a soccer player to walk off when he wants to waste time? Then treble that as a player at the far corner of a GAA pitch (a smart manager would tell the player coming off to head to the far corner before sub is signalled) would have nearly 3 times as far to go, at walking or limping pace this would take too much time
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/02/01/kilmacud-crokes-set-to-appeal-cccc-ruling-that-all-ireland-final-should-be-replayed/
Kilmacud Crokes are set to appeal the Central Competitions Control Committee's (CCCC) ruling that the 2023 All-Ireland club senior football final should be replayed.
And the predominant feeling within the South Dublin club appears to be that they are prepared to take their challenge against the CCCC's decision all the way to the Disputes Resolution Authority (DRA), if necessary. Several meetings have taken place involving club officials and team management since Tuesday morning's confirmation that a replay was the CCCC's judgment, as Kilmacud Crokes consider their next move. The club has until Friday morning to appeal the decision to the Central Appeals Committee (CAC), and the indications from the Stillorgan outfit are that they will be engaging with the GAA's disciplinary process.
Kilmacud's strongest chance of overturning the CCCC's ruling remains by having their case heard by the DRA, an external independent body, but they must first exhaust the GAA's disciplinary system before they can get to that stage.
The CAC rules largely on procedural grounds and the GAA's Official Guide states appeals shall only be upheld where: '(i) there has been a clear infringement or misapplication of Rule by the Decision-Maker or (ii) the Appellant's right to a fair hearing has otherwise been compromised to such extent that a clear injustice has occurred.'
Kilmacud's view is that what happened in relation to substitutions in the closing stages of their two-point All-Ireland final win over Glen was primarily the fault of the match day officials.
Quote from: seafoid on February 02, 2023, 06:52:33 AM
Kilmacud's view is that what happened in relation to substitutions in the closing stages of their two-point All-Ireland final win over Glen was primarily the fault of the match day officials.
Kilmacud are responsible for how they field a team.
If a player takes 10 steps without soloing the ball, its not the referee's fault they took 10 steps.
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 02, 2023, 07:29:19 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 02, 2023, 06:52:33 AM
Kilmacud's view is that what happened in relation to substitutions in the closing stages of their two-point All-Ireland final win over Glen was primarily the fault of the match day officials.
Kilmacud are responsible for how they field a team.
If a player takes 10 steps without soloing the ball, its not the referee's fault they took 10 steps.
But if the referee didn't blow for the foul you'd suggest that player and his team got away with it.
Your analogy isn't a good one and if anything strengthens the Crokes argument.
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 02, 2023, 07:29:19 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 02, 2023, 06:52:33 AM
Kilmacud's view is that what happened in relation to substitutions in the closing stages of their two-point All-Ireland final win over Glen was primarily the fault of the match day officials.
Kilmacud are responsible for how they field a team.
If a player takes 10 steps without soloing the ball, its not the referee's fault they took 10 steps.
The appeals process usually deals with ref issues such as sendings off and suspensions. There is a lot of negotiation.
There is a large bank of cases and decisions for both club and intercounty . Every county knows how it works, as do all GAA journalists.
This "ref" element of the appeals process is famous.
https://munster.gaa.ie/clubs/guide-to-appeals-process/
Nobody knows how the "rules" process works because it is not about the ref. The Muster GAA website has nothing on it. It is about the rules. And the KC defence ignores the rules.
The rules cannot be negotiated. Nobody knows how the GAA will react.
"We had 16 players but we didn't know" could be replicated over and over in the championship . It would legalise shithousery.
The farrago could come to an end sooner than people think.
Quote from: seafoid on February 02, 2023, 06:52:33 AM
.'
Kilmacud's view is that what happened in relation to substitutions in the closing stages of their two-point All-Ireland final win over Glen was primarily the fault of the match day officials.
'primarily' is the key word there. It was still at least some of Kilmacud's fault that they brought on a sub without bringing a player coming off.
I also don't understand the whole "it's not our fault so there should be no replay" defense.
If the ref blew a tight game up 15 min early, it wouldn't be the winning team's fault, but that doesn't mean rules weren't broken and that there shouldn't be a replay.
Quote from: PMG1 on February 02, 2023, 01:29:19 AM
Quote from: J70 on February 01, 2023, 11:59:24 AM
Forgive me if its already been discussed (I haven't read all of the thread), but is there any reason why the GAA can't do substitutions the way they do them in soccer?
At the halfway point on the sideline, players come off before substitute goes on. Ref or linesman oversees it?
You see how long it takes a soccer player to walk off when he wants to waste time? Then treble that as a player at the far corner of a GAA pitch (a smart manager would tell the player coming off to head to the far corner before sub is signalled) would have nearly 3 times as far to go, at walking or limping pace this would take too much time
Gie them 20s to get off then yellow card them if they arent off in that time
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 02, 2023, 09:45:18 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on February 02, 2023, 01:29:19 AM
Quote from: J70 on February 01, 2023, 11:59:24 AM
Forgive me if its already been discussed (I haven't read all of the thread), but is there any reason why the GAA can't do substitutions the way they do them in soccer?
At the halfway point on the sideline, players come off before substitute goes on. Ref or linesman oversees it?
You see how long it takes a soccer player to walk off when he wants to waste time? Then treble that as a player at the far corner of a GAA pitch (a smart manager would tell the player coming off to head to the far corner before sub is signalled) would have nearly 3 times as far to go, at walking or limping pace this would take too much time
Gie them 20s to get off then yellow card them if they arent off in that time
Getting a yellow card as you are walking off the pitch isn't much punishment (unless it's a second yellow) in a sport where yellow cards don't accumulate
Quote from: westbound on February 02, 2023, 03:40:32 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 02, 2023, 09:45:18 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on February 02, 2023, 01:29:19 AM
Quote from: J70 on February 01, 2023, 11:59:24 AM
Forgive me if its already been discussed (I haven't read all of the thread), but is there any reason why the GAA can't do substitutions the way they do them in soccer?
At the halfway point on the sideline, players come off before substitute goes on. Ref or linesman oversees it?
You see how long it takes a soccer player to walk off when he wants to waste time? Then treble that as a player at the far corner of a GAA pitch (a smart manager would tell the player coming off to head to the far corner before sub is signalled) would have nearly 3 times as far to go, at walking or limping pace this would take too much time
Gie them 20s to get off then yellow card them if they arent off in that time
Getting a yellow card as you are walking off the pitch isn't much punishment (unless it's a second yellow) in a sport where yellow cards don't accumulate
Give them a black then that wouldn't be long speeding them up.
Quote from: westbound on February 02, 2023, 03:40:32 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 02, 2023, 09:45:18 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on February 02, 2023, 01:29:19 AM
Quote from: J70 on February 01, 2023, 11:59:24 AM
Forgive me if its already been discussed (I haven't read all of the thread), but is there any reason why the GAA can't do substitutions the way they do them in soccer?
At the halfway point on the sideline, players come off before substitute goes on. Ref or linesman oversees it?
You see how long it takes a soccer player to walk off when he wants to waste time? Then treble that as a player at the far corner of a GAA pitch (a smart manager would tell the player coming off to head to the far corner before sub is signalled) would have nearly 3 times as far to go, at walking or limping pace this would take too much time
Gie them 20s to get off then yellow card them if they arent off in that time
Getting a yellow card as you are walking off the pitch isn't much punishment (unless it's a second yellow) in a sport where yellow cards don't accumulate
Fair enough. A black, as has been suggested
If you black the man going off, does the substitution get cancelled?
Quote from: Rossfan on February 02, 2023, 04:17:37 PM
If you black the man going off, does the substitution get cancelled?
Depends if he's on the pitch or not lol!! That's another can or worms
Make it simple, subs are being made, stop the watch, been doing it for years and will continue to do so, players enter the pitch, blow whistle and restart the watch.
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 02, 2023, 09:45:18 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on February 02, 2023, 01:29:19 AM
Quote from: J70 on February 01, 2023, 11:59:24 AM
Forgive me if its already been discussed (I haven't read all of the thread), but is there any reason why the GAA can't do substitutions the way they do them in soccer?
At the halfway point on the sideline, players come off before substitute goes on. Ref or linesman oversees it?
You see how long it takes a soccer player to walk off when he wants to waste time? Then treble that as a player at the far corner of a GAA pitch (a smart manager would tell the player coming off to head to the far corner before sub is signalled) would have nearly 3 times as far to go, at walking or limping pace this would take too much time
Gie them 20s to get off then yellow card them if they arent off in that time
They are coming off anyway so unless they are already on a yellow card then they are not going to worry about getting one. It's not like soccer where yellow cards are totted up and you get suspended once you get a certain amount
Quote from: PMG1 on February 03, 2023, 01:28:35 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 02, 2023, 09:45:18 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on February 02, 2023, 01:29:19 AM
Quote from: J70 on February 01, 2023, 11:59:24 AM
Forgive me if its already been discussed (I haven't read all of the thread), but is there any reason why the GAA can't do substitutions the way they do them in soccer?
At the halfway point on the sideline, players come off before substitute goes on. Ref or linesman oversees it?
You see how long it takes a soccer player to walk off when he wants to waste time? Then treble that as a player at the far corner of a GAA pitch (a smart manager would tell the player coming off to head to the far corner before sub is signalled) would have nearly 3 times as far to go, at walking or limping pace this would take too much time
Gie them 20s to get off then yellow card them if they arent off in that time
They are coming off anyway so unless they are already on a yellow card then they are not going to worry about getting one. It's not like soccer where yellow cards are totted up and you get suspended once you get a certain amount
You'd imagine the introduction of something like this is an absolute certainty to eventually come out of this mess. I would also introduce no subs in injury time to cut out the knavery that KC were at too - not unique to them obviously.
Quote from: bennydorano on February 03, 2023, 08:11:01 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on February 03, 2023, 01:28:35 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 02, 2023, 09:45:18 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on February 02, 2023, 01:29:19 AM
Quote from: J70 on February 01, 2023, 11:59:24 AM
Forgive me if its already been discussed (I haven't read all of the thread), but is there any reason why the GAA can't do substitutions the way they do them in soccer?
At the halfway point on the sideline, players come off before substitute goes on. Ref or linesman oversees it?
You see how long it takes a soccer player to walk off when he wants to waste time? Then treble that as a player at the far corner of a GAA pitch (a smart manager would tell the player coming off to head to the far corner before sub is signalled) would have nearly 3 times as far to go, at walking or limping pace this would take too much time
Gie them 20s to get off then yellow card them if they arent off in that time
They are coming off anyway so unless they are already on a yellow card then they are not going to worry about getting one. It's not like soccer where yellow cards are totted up and you get suspended once you get a certain amount
You'd imagine the introduction of something like this is an absolute certainty to eventually come out of this mess. I would also introduce no subs in injury time to cut out the knavery that KC were at too - not unique to them obviously.
I wouldnt do that tbh, just let the ref stop the watch while the sub is being made.
Subs and injury time is the only means a ref has to actually stop play, that's always been the case, I'd introduce time wasting by free takers or give them 15 20 seconds to line up a free. Keepers are the worst for it also looking for footballs while one is sitting in the net.
If deemed time wasting by the keeper a hop ball on the 14 would quicken up his kicks
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/02/02/gaa-director-general-says-association-was-right-not-to-intervene-in-club-final-disciplinary-process/
"GAA director general Tom Ryan said at the launch of his annual report in Croke Park that it was correct for the association to follow its procedures rather than make special provision for an All-Ireland final or issue statements about the controversy."
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 03, 2023, 08:51:36 AM
Subs and injury time is the only means a ref has to actually stop play, that's always been the case, I'd introduce time wasting by free takers or give them 15 20 seconds to line up a free. Keepers are the worst for it also looking for footballs while one is sitting in the net.
If deemed time wasting by the keeper a hop ball on the 14 would quicken up his kicks
Yeah, GAA has so much to learn from other sports but so backward at times as it's preceived the rule has come from soccer or rugby etc. Crazy.
I think they're introducing a shot clock, or trialing it in rugby for a conversion after a try. A great idea to cut down on how long it takes.
I mean in the GAA, the ball is in play for about 30 mins during a game. Other 30 mins it's out of play. Really teams are playing for 30 mins.
Maybe each half should be 40 mins long nowadays.
Quote from: marty34 on February 03, 2023, 09:24:30 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 03, 2023, 08:51:36 AM
Subs and injury time is the only means a ref has to actually stop play, that's always been the case, I'd introduce time wasting by free takers or give them 15 20 seconds to line up a free. Keepers are the worst for it also looking for footballs while one is sitting in the net.
If deemed time wasting by the keeper a hop ball on the 14 would quicken up his kicks
Yeah, GAA has so much to learn from other sports but so backward at times as it's preceived the rule has come from soccer or rugby etc. Crazy.
I think they're introducing a shot clock, or trialing it in rugby for a conversion after a try. A great idea to cut down on how long it takes.
I mean in the GAA, the ball is in play for about 30 mins during a game. Other 30 mins it's out of play. Really teams are playing for 30 mins.
Maybe each half should be 40 mins long nowadays.
That would just put more and more emphasis on the fitness side rather than the skill side. Ever look at a top intercounty players gps stats? Madness. even the average club player is putting up big numbers these days
Quote from: marty34 on February 03, 2023, 09:24:30 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 03, 2023, 08:51:36 AM
Subs and injury time is the only means a ref has to actually stop play, that's always been the case, I'd introduce time wasting by free takers or give them 15 20 seconds to line up a free. Keepers are the worst for it also looking for footballs while one is sitting in the net.
If deemed time wasting by the keeper a hop ball on the 14 would quicken up his kicks
Yeah, GAA has so much to learn from other sports but so backward at times as it's preceived the rule has come from soccer or rugby etc. Crazy.
I think they're introducing a shot clock, or trialing it in rugby for a conversion after a try. A great idea to cut down on how long it takes.
I mean in the GAA, the ball is in play for about 30 mins during a game. Other 30 mins it's out of play. Really teams are playing for 30 mins.
Maybe each half should be 40 mins long nowadays.
We have introduced a shot clock anyways with the 'mark' 15 seconds and there isn't any issues
Quote from: bennydorano on February 03, 2023, 08:11:01 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on February 03, 2023, 01:28:35 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 02, 2023, 09:45:18 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on February 02, 2023, 01:29:19 AM
Quote from: J70 on February 01, 2023, 11:59:24 AM
Forgive me if its already been discussed (I haven't read all of the thread), but is there any reason why the GAA can't do substitutions the way they do them in soccer?
At the halfway point on the sideline, players come off before substitute goes on. Ref or linesman oversees it?
You see how long it takes a soccer player to walk off when he wants to waste time? Then treble that as a player at the far corner of a GAA pitch (a smart manager would tell the player coming off to head to the far corner before sub is signalled) would have nearly 3 times as far to go, at walking or limping pace this would take too much time
Gie them 20s to get off then yellow card them if they arent off in that time
They are coming off anyway so unless they are already on a yellow card then they are not going to worry about getting one. It's not like soccer where yellow cards are totted up and you get suspended once you get a certain amount
You'd imagine the introduction of something like this is an absolute certainty to eventually come out of this mess. I would also introduce no subs in injury time to cut out the knavery that KC were at too - not unique to them obviously.
I'd throw this up for discussion too.
The ref can add on the time OK, but every bit as much as killing time, teams use the subs to kill momentum in the dying seconds/minutes.
Quote from: Franko on February 03, 2023, 10:14:41 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on February 03, 2023, 08:11:01 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on February 03, 2023, 01:28:35 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 02, 2023, 09:45:18 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on February 02, 2023, 01:29:19 AM
Quote from: J70 on February 01, 2023, 11:59:24 AM
Forgive me if its already been discussed (I haven't read all of the thread), but is there any reason why the GAA can't do substitutions the way they do them in soccer?
At the halfway point on the sideline, players come off before substitute goes on. Ref or linesman oversees it?
You see how long it takes a soccer player to walk off when he wants to waste time? Then treble that as a player at the far corner of a GAA pitch (a smart manager would tell the player coming off to head to the far corner before sub is signalled) would have nearly 3 times as far to go, at walking or limping pace this would take too much time
Gie them 20s to get off then yellow card them if they arent off in that time
They are coming off anyway so unless they are already on a yellow card then they are not going to worry about getting one. It's not like soccer where yellow cards are totted up and you get suspended once you get a certain amount
You'd imagine the introduction of something like this is an absolute certainty to eventually come out of this mess. I would also introduce no subs in injury time to cut out the knavery that KC were at too - not unique to them obviously.
I'd throw this up for discussion too.
The ref can add on the time OK, but every bit as much as killing time, teams use the subs to kill momentum in the dying seconds/minutes.
So no subs during injury time? so actual injuries can not be replaced? You'll have the player welfare nuts coming on then saying that the players will be forced to play when injured and so on..
You have to have subs and its a break in play, same as a player going down and holding his head, they are all using it to slow play, the ref aint a doctor and that's a medic's call tbf
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 03, 2023, 10:21:14 AM
Quote from: Franko on February 03, 2023, 10:14:41 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on February 03, 2023, 08:11:01 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on February 03, 2023, 01:28:35 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 02, 2023, 09:45:18 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on February 02, 2023, 01:29:19 AM
Quote from: J70 on February 01, 2023, 11:59:24 AM
Forgive me if its already been discussed (I haven't read all of the thread), but is there any reason why the GAA can't do substitutions the way they do them in soccer?
At the halfway point on the sideline, players come off before substitute goes on. Ref or linesman oversees it?
You see how long it takes a soccer player to walk off when he wants to waste time? Then treble that as a player at the far corner of a GAA pitch (a smart manager would tell the player coming off to head to the far corner before sub is signalled) would have nearly 3 times as far to go, at walking or limping pace this would take too much time
Gie them 20s to get off then yellow card them if they arent off in that time
They are coming off anyway so unless they are already on a yellow card then they are not going to worry about getting one. It's not like soccer where yellow cards are totted up and you get suspended once you get a certain amount
You'd imagine the introduction of something like this is an absolute certainty to eventually come out of this mess. I would also introduce no subs in injury time to cut out the knavery that KC were at too - not unique to them obviously.
I'd throw this up for discussion too.
The ref can add on the time OK, but every bit as much as killing time, teams use the subs to kill momentum in the dying seconds/minutes.
So no subs during injury time? so actual injuries can not be replaced? You'll have the player welfare nuts coming on then saying that the players will be forced to play when injured and so on..
You have to have subs and its a break in play, same as a player going down and holding his head, they are all using it to slow play, the ref aint a doctor and that's a medic's call tbf
Does that make them nuts? Jaysus
It's a bit like the head injury stuff - you can't enforce any of that. Black cards and yellow cards for players going off would be carnage. No subs not enforceable with injuries a possibility etc. It's impossible to police.
It's like anything - people will rip the arse out of it to try and win and that's what happened here. It's very hard to mitigate for.
Quote from: Armagh18 on February 03, 2023, 10:28:17 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 03, 2023, 10:21:14 AM
Quote from: Franko on February 03, 2023, 10:14:41 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on February 03, 2023, 08:11:01 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on February 03, 2023, 01:28:35 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 02, 2023, 09:45:18 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on February 02, 2023, 01:29:19 AM
Quote from: J70 on February 01, 2023, 11:59:24 AM
Forgive me if its already been discussed (I haven't read all of the thread), but is there any reason why the GAA can't do substitutions the way they do them in soccer?
At the halfway point on the sideline, players come off before substitute goes on. Ref or linesman oversees it?
You see how long it takes a soccer player to walk off when he wants to waste time? Then treble that as a player at the far corner of a GAA pitch (a smart manager would tell the player coming off to head to the far corner before sub is signalled) would have nearly 3 times as far to go, at walking or limping pace this would take too much time
Gie them 20s to get off then yellow card them if they arent off in that time
They are coming off anyway so unless they are already on a yellow card then they are not going to worry about getting one. It's not like soccer where yellow cards are totted up and you get suspended once you get a certain amount
You'd imagine the introduction of something like this is an absolute certainty to eventually come out of this mess. I would also introduce no subs in injury time to cut out the knavery that KC were at too - not unique to them obviously.
I'd throw this up for discussion too.
The ref can add on the time OK, but every bit as much as killing time, teams use the subs to kill momentum in the dying seconds/minutes.
So no subs during injury time? so actual injuries can not be replaced? You'll have the player welfare nuts coming on then saying that the players will be forced to play when injured and so on..
You have to have subs and its a break in play, same as a player going down and holding his head, they are all using it to slow play, the ref aint a doctor and that's a medic's call tbf
Does that make them nuts? Jaysus
Its nuts because if the player is actually injured he should be taken off and not allowed to play and not forced to play, the reality is a lot different though
Quote from: Armagh18 on February 03, 2023, 09:47:45 AM
Quote from: marty34 on February 03, 2023, 09:24:30 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 03, 2023, 08:51:36 AM
Subs and injury time is the only means a ref has to actually stop play, that's always been the case, I'd introduce time wasting by free takers or give them 15 20 seconds to line up a free. Keepers are the worst for it also looking for footballs while one is sitting in the net.
If deemed time wasting by the keeper a hop ball on the 14 would quicken up his kicks
Yeah, GAA has so much to learn from other sports but so backward at times as it's preceived the rule has come from soccer or rugby etc. Crazy.
I think they're introducing a shot clock, or trialing it in rugby for a conversion after a try. A great idea to cut down on how long it takes.
I mean in the GAA, the ball is in play for about 30 mins during a game. Other 30 mins it's out of play. Really teams are playing for 30 mins.
Maybe each half should be 40 mins long nowadays.
That would just put more and more emphasis on the fitness side rather than the skill side. Ever look at a top intercounty players gps stats? Madness. even the average club player is putting up big numbers these days
But they're only playing for 30 mins.
All that training and fitness etc. and the ball is in actual play for 30 mins.
Yeah, all them GPS fitness stats and in some matches they only score 5 points.
There are significant cultural problems within GAA surrounding acceptable levels of cheating.
Stealing yards for frees. Water carriers and physios entering the field unannounced to block runs. Kicking multiple balls onto the field to disrupt a restart. Signalling a head injury after any collision, or even a cramp. Engaging in off-the-ball wrestling with a yellow-carded player to have him sent off. Club umpires signalling their decision before the ball has left the boot. Slowed down restarts. Keepers taking a minute to walk upfield to hit a free that's outside their range. Referee intimidation.
All described regularly and fondly as "shithousery" and so many fans love to see their team engage in all forms of it.
Every single one of these things happens regularly and they're each every bit as worthy of a rematch as an extra player being on the field for 10 seconds.
So what difference would new rules on substitutions make? None. It might prevent this exact scenario unfolding again. But it won't stop shithousery. And it won't change our cultural acceptance of it.
Quote from: thewobbler on February 03, 2023, 10:44:28 AM
There are significant cultural problems within GAA surrounding acceptable levels of cheating.
Stealing yards for frees. Water carriers and physios entering the field unannounced to block runs. Kicking multiple balls onto the field to disrupt a restart. Signalling a head injury after any collision, or even a cramp. Engaging in off-the-ball wrestling with a yellow-carded player to have him sent off. Club umpires signalling their decision before the ball has left the boot. Slowed down restarts. Keepers taking a minute to walk upfield to hit a free that's outside their range. Referee intimidation.
All described regularly and fondly as "shithousery" and so many fans love to see their team engage in all forms of it.
Every single one of these things happens regularly and they're each every bit as worthy of a rematch as an extra player being on the field for 10 seconds.
So what difference would new rules on substitutions make? None. It might prevent this exact scenario unfolding again. But it won't stop shithousery. And it won't change our cultural acceptance of it.
Here's the thing thewobbler, if your club is winning a club final by a couple of points and the momentum is with the other team, you are the manager, there is no way in the world that you will allow them to have that momentum, its about winning and sometimes whether its right or wrong shithousery is required to break that play up, and if it works, you'll live with it..
I remember playing senior hurling during a time and we just moved up to division one, the amount of silly goals we gave away was criminal, just loss of concentration or getting caught out, it meant that every time a ball came to or box we just got more panicky.
We decided when the ball came in that we'd accidently fall on the ball (dangerous enough lol) but it then made the ref make a call, was he push, its dangerous so stop play and so on, now it may have only happened once in a game or so but it killed a good lot of those crappy goals we gave away..
Things changed over the years after and sitting on the ball or not attempt to move was seen as a free in, that was still a better outcome than a ball being lashed into the net..
For every play there is someone looking to strip it down and see how they can gain an advantage
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 03, 2023, 11:03:58 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on February 03, 2023, 10:44:28 AM
There are significant cultural problems within GAA surrounding acceptable levels of cheating.
Stealing yards for frees. Water carriers and physios entering the field unannounced to block runs. Kicking multiple balls onto the field to disrupt a restart. Signalling a head injury after any collision, or even a cramp. Engaging in off-the-ball wrestling with a yellow-carded player to have him sent off. Club umpires signalling their decision before the ball has left the boot. Slowed down restarts. Keepers taking a minute to walk upfield to hit a free that's outside their range. Referee intimidation.
All described regularly and fondly as "shithousery" and so many fans love to see their team engage in all forms of it.
Every single one of these things happens regularly and they're each every bit as worthy of a rematch as an extra player being on the field for 10 seconds.
So what difference would new rules on substitutions make? None. It might prevent this exact scenario unfolding again. But it won't stop shithousery. And it won't change our cultural acceptance of it.
Here's the thing thewobbler, if your club is winning a club final by a couple of points and the momentum is with the other team, you are the manager, there is no way in the world that you will allow them to have that momentum, its about winning and sometimes whether its right or wrong shithousery is required to break that play up, and if it works, you'll live with it..
I remember playing senior hurling during a time and we just moved up to division one, the amount of silly goals we gave away was criminal, just loss of concentration or getting caught out, it meant that every time a ball came to or box we just got more panicky.
We decided when the ball came in that we'd accidently fall on the ball (dangerous enough lol) but it then made the ref make a call, was he push, its dangerous so stop play and so on, now it may have only happened once in a game or so but it killed a good lot of those crappy goals we gave away..
Things changed over the years after and sitting on the ball or not attempt to move was seen as a free in, that was still a better outcome than a ball being lashed into the net..
For every play there is someone looking to strip it down and see how they can gain an advantage
Those are ref issues
Changing the rules during the game whther deliberately or not is a different type of issue.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 03, 2023, 10:21:14 AM
So no subs during injury time? so actual injuries can not be replaced? You'll have the player welfare nuts coming on then saying that the players will be forced to play when injured and so on..
You have to have subs and its a break in play, same as a player going down and holding his head, they are all using it to slow play, the ref aint a doctor and that's a medic's call tbf
Is that not the case when a team uses up all their subs anyway? You just have to deal with it and go a man down?
On Colm Parkinson's podcast the idea was floated of following Premier League sub rules in that you can only make subs at 3 distinct points in a match. Would there be many drawbacks to that?
Quote from: Mike Tyson on February 03, 2023, 01:11:36 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 03, 2023, 10:21:14 AM
So no subs during injury time? so actual injuries can not be replaced? You'll have the player welfare nuts coming on then saying that the players will be forced to play when injured and so on..
You have to have subs and its a break in play, same as a player going down and holding his head, they are all using it to slow play, the ref aint a doctor and that's a medic's call tbf
Is that not the case when a team uses up all their subs anyway? You just have to deal with it and go a man down?
On Colm Parkinson's podcast the idea was floated of following Premier League sub rules in that you can only make subs at 3 distinct points in a match. Would there be many drawbacks to that?
I don't think it is 3 distinct points it is you can only make them on 3 occasions during a game.
Quote from: Cavan19 on February 03, 2023, 01:12:44 PM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on February 03, 2023, 01:11:36 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 03, 2023, 10:21:14 AM
So no subs during injury time? so actual injuries can not be replaced? You'll have the player welfare nuts coming on then saying that the players will be forced to play when injured and so on..
You have to have subs and its a break in play, same as a player going down and holding his head, they are all using it to slow play, the ref aint a doctor and that's a medic's call tbf
Is that not the case when a team uses up all their subs anyway? You just have to deal with it and go a man down?
On Colm Parkinson's podcast the idea was floated of following Premier League sub rules in that you can only make subs at 3 distinct points in a match. Would there be many drawbacks to that?
I don't think it is 3 distinct points it is you can only make them on 3 occasions during a game.
Yea sorry that's what I meant. Not constricted to a point in the game but only on 3 occassions.
Quote from: Mike Tyson on February 03, 2023, 01:11:36 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 03, 2023, 10:21:14 AM
So no subs during injury time? so actual injuries can not be replaced? You'll have the player welfare nuts coming on then saying that the players will be forced to play when injured and so on..
You have to have subs and its a break in play, same as a player going down and holding his head, they are all using it to slow play, the ref aint a doctor and that's a medic's call tbf
Is that not the case when a team uses up all their subs anyway? You just have to deal with it and go a man down?
On Colm Parkinson's podcast the idea was floated of following Premier League sub rules in that you can only make subs at 3 distinct points in a match. Would there be many drawbacks to that?
That's if they have no subs left, if they do they can replace them whenever and if a player goes off with a head injury he also can be replaced with a temp sub
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 03, 2023, 01:21:47 PM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on February 03, 2023, 01:11:36 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 03, 2023, 10:21:14 AM
So no subs during injury time? so actual injuries can not be replaced? You'll have the player welfare nuts coming on then saying that the players will be forced to play when injured and so on..
You have to have subs and its a break in play, same as a player going down and holding his head, they are all using it to slow play, the ref aint a doctor and that's a medic's call tbf
Is that not the case when a team uses up all their subs anyway? You just have to deal with it and go a man down?
On Colm Parkinson's podcast the idea was floated of following Premier League sub rules in that you can only make subs at 3 distinct points in a match. Would there be many drawbacks to that?
That's if they have no subs left, if they do they can replace them whenever and if a player goes off with a head injury he also can be replaced with a temp sub
That's my point, the risk of not replacing an injured player is already there and does happen under the current rules. Don't think there's too much noise around player welfare in that regard at the minute. Not that I'm in agreement with no subs in injury time but its on average 2-3mins of time added (be interesting to know how much of that is actual playing time) so can't see the issue around player welfare. If you're injured you go off and go a man down - same as when all your subs are used currently.
Quote from: Mike Tyson on February 03, 2023, 01:19:22 PM
Quote from: Cavan19 on February 03, 2023, 01:12:44 PM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on February 03, 2023, 01:11:36 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 03, 2023, 10:21:14 AM
So no subs during injury time? so actual injuries can not be replaced? You'll have the player welfare nuts coming on then saying that the players will be forced to play when injured and so on..
You have to have subs and its a break in play, same as a player going down and holding his head, they are all using it to slow play, the ref aint a doctor and that's a medic's call tbf
Is that not the case when a team uses up all their subs anyway? You just have to deal with it and go a man down?
On Colm Parkinson's podcast the idea was floated of following Premier League sub rules in that you can only make subs at 3 distinct points in a match. Would there be many drawbacks to that?
I don't think it is 3 distinct points it is you can only make them on 3 occasions during a game.
Yea sorry that's what I meant. Not constricted to a point in the game but only on 3 occassions.
good in theory but what if someone gets injured and you've already used your 3 sub occasions?
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 03, 2023, 02:26:01 PM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on February 03, 2023, 01:19:22 PM
Quote from: Cavan19 on February 03, 2023, 01:12:44 PM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on February 03, 2023, 01:11:36 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 03, 2023, 10:21:14 AM
So no subs during injury time? so actual injuries can not be replaced? You'll have the player welfare nuts coming on then saying that the players will be forced to play when injured and so on..
You have to have subs and its a break in play, same as a player going down and holding his head, they are all using it to slow play, the ref aint a doctor and that's a medic's call tbf
Is that not the case when a team uses up all their subs anyway? You just have to deal with it and go a man down?
On Colm Parkinson's podcast the idea was floated of following Premier League sub rules in that you can only make subs at 3 distinct points in a match. Would there be many drawbacks to that?
I don't think it is 3 distinct points it is you can only make them on 3 occasions during a game.
Yea sorry that's what I meant. Not constricted to a point in the game but only on 3 occassions.
good in theory but what if someone gets injured and you've already used your 3 sub occasions?
Well that's my point above - you carry on with 14. The same that would happen if all subs were used by the 50th minute today. I think the PL operates that way too - down to 10 men and it's a case of hard luck.
. "Policies in motion tend to stay in motion ; to change the trajectory of a deeply embedded set of initiatives requires the application of political forces of equal motion » Steve Walt
I hope the DRA tell KC to f**k off.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/02/03/kilmacud-crokes-lodge-appeal-against-cccc-ruling-that-all-ireland-final-should-be-replayed/
Kilmacud Crokes lodge appeal against CCCC ruling that All-Ireland final should be replayed
GAA's independent arbitration body now the likely destination for Dublin club's appeal
Seán Moran
Fri Feb 3
Kilmacud Crokes have lodged an appeal against the annulling of their All-Ireland club final win against Glen. Earlier in the week the Central Competitions Control Committee (CCCC) had heard from both clubs on foot of objection and counter-objection and decided to replay the match.
Glen had objected on the grounds that their opponents had 16 players on the field, defending the Derry champions' last attack in the dying seconds of the final.
Kilmacud had argued that they had done nothing wrong and that the report of referee Derek O'Mahoney, who made no mention of the matter, should be respected.
The CCCC nonetheless decided that Rule 6.44, governing the presence of excess players on the pitch, had been infringed – images of the breach had been widely seen in the media – and that of the three penalties available, a replay was more appropriate than a forfeit or a fine.
Kilmacud had already indicated that they would take the decision to the Central Appeals Committee and that was confirmed on Friday.
It is unlikely that any procedural issue has arisen from the CCCC hearing and decision, which is usually necessary to win an appeal, but it is a required part of the process to take the matter to the GAA's independent arbitration body, the Disputes Resolution Authority – which the club may well have had in mind as the destination tribunal most likely to rule in their favour.
If that is their chosen route, the club will have seven days after the appeal hearing, which is expected to be held in the coming days.
Glen remove their objection so there will be no replay
"Due to the ongoing proceedings we as a club now do not believe the conditions exist for a replay to be contested"
What exactly do they mean by that? Do they see Kilmacuds appeal as valid or can they simply not be bothered anymore?
Quote from: Franko on January 24, 2023, 08:47:21 AM
Glen chairman phones relevant GAA mandarin and says - "We're going to appeal, award us a replay and we'll decline it. BUT, we need something for it."
GAA award replay
Glen decline
Both respective organisations look good in the public eye
Glen get a big cheque.
This is how it should play out if anyone had any sense.
Ahem... just the team holiday to go now.
Quote from: Ghost on February 03, 2023, 08:04:54 PM
"Due to the ongoing proceedings we as a club now do not believe the conditions exist for a replay to be contested"
What exactly do they mean by that? Do they see Kilmacuds appeal as valid or can they simply not be bothered anymore?
The adverse publicly has gotten to them
Croke park breathes a huge sigh of relief
Taking the higher ground
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FoESFoWXoAA7Hqe?format=jpg&name=medium)
I dont see how this is the finish of it. The GAA ruled against Kilmacud during the week, surely that ruling still stands regardless what Glen want. So will KMC not have to appeal that ruling? And if the appeal is unsuccessful can they remain champions?
Quote from: Ghost on February 03, 2023, 08:04:54 PM
"Due to the ongoing proceedings we as a club now do not believe the conditions exist for a replay to be contested"
What exactly do they mean by that? Do they see Kilmacuds appeal as valid or can they simply not be bothered anymore?
Neither I'd imagine. More likely they think Kilmacud aren't going to replay the game under any circumstances. Still feel they were right to appeal, if only to force the GAA to look into the area and improve/clarify their rules.
Quote from: Ghost on February 03, 2023, 08:04:54 PM
"Due to the ongoing proceedings we as a club now do not believe the conditions exist for a replay to be contested"
What exactly do they mean by that? Do they see Kilmacuds appeal as valid or can they simply not be bothered anymore?
I think it means that it's the GAA's problem now and that they didn't want to be part of the bullshit any longer.
This is really bad for the GAA.
"Watty Graham's GAC, Glen lodged an objection to the result of the All-Ireland club final because we believed that grounds existed for a replay to be held if Rule 6.44 had been broken."
The rule was broken but KC didn't accept that it had been. So the rules don't matter. They are just a culture war.
Told you so.
No chance that game was ever going to be replayed.
Quote from: pbat on February 03, 2023, 08:18:23 PM
I dont see how this is the finish of it. The GAA ruled against Kilmacud during the week, surely that ruling still stands regardless what Glen want. So will KMC not have to appeal that ruling? And if the appeal is unsuccessful can they remain champions?
I don't think so. I thought the replay decision wiped out the result.
Lock this thread ffs
Touch of class from Glen, fair play. They come out of it with heads held high
After the balls up on the day, this was the best way to handle it for all parties concerned.
Glen assessed that the chances of a win weren't high and that a defeat could derail another season for them.
But they had a point to make and they've now made it.
They now go into next season with the fire in the belly burning bright
They've also well and truly taken the moral high ground.
Kilmacud get to keep their cup
Croke Park avoids a massive handling.
Come June this whole episode will be forgotten.
As long as it's not forgotten to the extent that the rules around subs don't get changed. Major tighten up needed.
I think this shows that the GAA DG is wrong. One fits all does not work for appeals. Who cares if is the same for a junior F match in Erris?
It's now 12 days since the match and there is no clarity. Why should there be escalating appeal processes for a serious rule breach in a national final ?
This might work for the junior match but the rules were either breached or they weren't. There is no nuance.
Quote from: take_yer_points on February 03, 2023, 08:30:30 PM
Touch of class from Glen, fair play. They come out of it with heads held high
Agreed. Anyone with an ounce of wit knew there'd be no replay. Congratulations Kilmacud, great champions after undeservedly losing the previous year. Hopefully Glen can get back in the next year or 2.
Fair play Glen.
Glen definitely have the moral high ground and certainly come out of this debacle with their reputation enhanced.
It was brave to appeal when the gaa refused to step in and even more brave to withdraw when it became obvious KC were not going to respect the rules and use processes to deny Glen a chance of a fair game.
KC may have the victory but I feel its a hollow one.
I hope Glen can push on again next year, if they win derry that is :)
Fair play Glen.
So that's it, replay was never going to happen, Glen pull out and are seen to take the high ground, Kilmacud keep their title they deservedly won on the day and everyone moves on with their lives until the next drama comes along.
Tarnished for Crokes. Did they really win it?
Only way they put this to bed was goin out and winning a replay which I think they would have.
Fair play to Glen once the KC appeal went in against a rule clearly being broke they where always on the drying ground.
Lawfare won.
Correct decision by Glen in the future such action should be taken by HQ and not put a club in that position again.
Lara McCarthy didn't çover himself in glory. Hope Jarlaith Burns will take note. Time for thread to be closed.
Quote from: Blowitupref on February 03, 2023, 09:11:20 PM
Correct decision by Glen in the future such action should be taken by HQ and not put a club in that position again.
They won't. That is why it's such a mess. They want one system for all levels.
The organisation has outgrown the calibre of the leadership.
Is that the end of it now whereby Crokes are winners by default or does the process continue as the replay was ordered, to the extent where the final is now declared null and void?
Still technical cheated to win, from Glen Point of view, what was the point of putting in a object if u don't go the full 9 yards. Moral victories count for f**k all. Shoe was on the other foot KC would not have withdrew their complaint, as they previous history appealing player suspension etc. People say they were the better team, I be of the opinion that the penalty (which wasn't) was not given, KC would not have come bck into the game as strongly as they did.
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on February 03, 2023, 09:57:29 PM
Is that the end of it now whereby Crokes are winners by default or does the process continue as the replay was ordered, to the extent where the final is now declared null and void?
Was wondering the same. Objection from Glen is dealt with, replay has been ordered. Crokes objected to that so that now has to be decided.
Does that mean the withdrawal of the complaint is irrelevant as that stage in the process is done and dusted, it's now onwards to deal with the Crokes appeal? Or is the whole thing considered one process and that's it finished now and the decision to order a replay is now void? The latter seems the easy way out, but maybe that's what the rules dictate
Quote from: Franko on February 03, 2023, 08:36:48 PM
Kilmacud get to keep their cup
With a sizeable enough asterisk beside it. I'm sure in time it will be forgotten about but it'll definitely be tarnished I'm the eyes of many for years to come.
The officials in charge of that All Ireland final should never be let near a high profile game again.
So Glen did enough to spoil the party, but now won't follow through.
Don't get the love in for Glen on here. They would have been better off saying they were disappointed about what happened but accept that they were beaten. And give the GAA a dig about not investigating of their own accord. Now it just looks like they did enough to poop the party for KC but didn't actually genuinely believe in it.
Hope the GAA void the whole thing.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on February 03, 2023, 10:38:29 PM
The officials in charge of that All Ireland final should never be let near a high profile game again.
Has O'Mahony refereed a game since? Not listed for this weekend. Who was the 4th official?
Thank god this farce is over.
So KC cheated to cross the line. They are not the first and they won't be the last. The officials are there to keep order. They won't get everything right. If they miss something or make a mistake that's tough on the losers. The lesson is, take your beating and move on!
The cheating is a bit rough, you are implying they did it on purpose and it wasn't a mistake. But hey if that suits some then fine
Quote from: From the Bunker on February 03, 2023, 11:01:29 PM
Thank god this farce is over.
So KC cheated to cross the line. They are not the first and they won't be the last. The officials are there to keep order. They won't get everything right. If they miss something or make a mistake that's tough on the losers. The lesson is, take your beating and move on!
Didn't mayo abuse the blood sub rule in 2012 against the dubs in 2012? I doubt was their intention to cheat. People in Glasshouses.
Quote from: Gael85 on February 03, 2023, 10:42:12 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on February 03, 2023, 10:38:29 PM
The officials in charge of that All Ireland final should never be let near a high profile game again.
Has O'Mahony refereed a game since? Not listed for this weekend. Who was the 4th official?
Wee weird runner who calls penalties outside the box and fucks up All Irelands
Won't be missed
Quote from: Gold on February 03, 2023, 11:37:12 PM
Quote from: Gael85 on February 03, 2023, 10:42:12 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on February 03, 2023, 10:38:29 PM
The officials in charge of that All Ireland final should never be let near a high profile game again.
Has O'Mahony refereed a game since? Not listed for this weekend. Who was the 4th official?
Wee weird runner who calls penalties outside the box and fucks up All Irelands
Won't be missed
Have you an image of that penalty? Haven't seen it since it was live but thought it was borderline at the time and no one there really complained.. was a daft one to give considering he was closed down going into a dead end.
Don't give the ref that decision
I expect to see a deluge of slow walking subs incoming off in the championshiop as 1) ref wouldn't locate correct time for it and 2) now they know f**k all be done if they don't come off. Would the FA Cup final be replayed in England if the other team defending a corner with 12 players at the death. No, they automatically lose the game. GAA just showed it up to be the laughing stock it has been, in recent years. Anyway football out if the way. On to the next money making Concert.!
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on February 04, 2023, 12:19:32 AM
I expect to see a deluge of slow walking subs incoming off in the championshiop as 1) ref wouldn't locate correct time for it and 2) now they know f**k all be done if they don't come off. Would the FA Cup final be replayed in England if the other team defending a corner with 12 players at the death. No, they automatically lose the game. GAA just showed it up to be the laughing stock it has been, in recent years. Anyway football out if the way. On to the next money making Concert.!
What is it makes you think the soccer team with 12 players would automatically lose the game?
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on February 04, 2023, 12:19:32 AM
I expect to see a deluge of slow walking subs incoming off in the championshiop as 1) ref wouldn't locate correct time for it and 2) now they know f**k all be done if they don't come off. Would the FA Cup final be replayed in England if the other team defending a corner with 12 players at the death. No, they automatically lose the game. GAA just showed it up to be the laughing stock it has been, in recent years. Anyway football out if the way. On to the next money making Concert.!
Are you a Glen man? They have made their decision, move on
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on February 03, 2023, 10:35:22 PM
Dublin's AI in '95 was never tarnished and nor will this be.
Well done to Glen. I'm not exactly sure what you achieved but people talked about you for a wee while longer so that's a win.
Speak for yourself.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on February 03, 2023, 10:38:29 PM
The officials in charge of that All Ireland final should never be let near a high profile game again.
You're saying that because we have so many brilliant refs lining up to take his place. Catch yourself on. He made a high profile mistake but wasn't helped by the sideline official. He actually had a great game up to the controversy and he'll hopefully be back doing high profile games again soon. All refs have made and will make mistakes.
2 problems in particular were revealed
1. The one size appeals process is very slow because it's a handover from the September all Ireland system which had fortnights between big games and the club final in March.
2. The split season with the tight schedule has no margin
. The 2 aspects contradict each other. If you have no spare time you need a fast process. The split season requires a culture change that wasn't planned for.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on February 03, 2023, 10:38:29 PM
The officials in charge of that All Ireland final should never be let near a high profile game again.
Oh God.
Quote from: trailer on February 04, 2023, 08:11:21 AM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on February 03, 2023, 10:38:29 PM
The officials in charge of that All Ireland final should never be let near a high profile game again.
Oh God.
According to most in here and on other social sites KC cheated so the ref was grand!
Quote from: gallsman on February 03, 2023, 10:30:07 PM
Quote from: Franko on February 03, 2023, 08:36:48 PM
Kilmacud get to keep their cup
With a sizeable enough asterisk beside it. I'm sure in time it will be forgotten about but it'll definitely be tarnished I'm the eyes of many for years to come.
KC have to ask themselves serious questions around this whole season. From the moment their football committee sanctioned the short term signing of one of the games marquee forwards, they were putting a spotlight on themselves. I'd certainly question why a club with 5,000 members and a catchment area of probably 100,000 would feel the need to take a decision that ultimately denied a homegrown player who'd been with them since academy days a chance to win an all Ireland club. What message does that send to the kids in the underage ranks?
As a club they're a shining example, I appreciate that the population they serve isn't their fault and it's to their credit that they provide playing opportunities for the thousands of kids that currently do, but their senior football management and committee really should take a look at their approach and see if it was in keeping with the wishes of their membership and community.
+1
I actually don't think the ref can be blamed too much
He must've have done ok as I never noticed him during the game, which is always a good sign. I was at the game, a good bit away from the pen incident, which wasn't replayed in the stadium, but having seen it since I think the ref got it right.
Not his job to make sure everyone is off, that's why you have linesmen and 4th officials
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on February 04, 2023, 09:45:15 AM
I actually don't think the ref can be blamed too much
He must've have done ok as I never noticed him during the game, which is always a good sign. I was at the game, a good bit away from the pen incident, which wasn't replayed in the stadium, but having seen it since I think the ref got it right.
Not his job to make sure everyone is off, that's why you have linesmen and 4th officials
No issue with the ref from my point if view but the foul was committed outside the box HH. In real time very difficult for the ref to spot that so again no real issue.
Quote from: onefineday on February 04, 2023, 09:32:49 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 03, 2023, 10:30:07 PM
Quote from: Franko on February 03, 2023, 08:36:48 PM
Kilmacud get to keep their cup
With a sizeable enough asterisk beside it. I'm sure in time it will be forgotten about but it'll definitely be tarnished I'm the eyes of many for years to come.
KC have to ask themselves serious questions around this whole season. From the moment their football committee sanctioned the short term signing of one of the games marquee forwards, they were putting a spotlight on themselves. I'd certainly question why a club with 5,000 members and a catchment area of probably 100,000 would feel the need to take a decision that ultimately denied a homegrown player who'd been with them since academy days a chance to win an all Ireland club. What message does that send to the kids in the underage ranks?
As a club they're a shining example, I appreciate that the population they serve isn't their fault and it's to their credit that they provide playing opportunities for the thousands of kids that currently do, but their senior football management and committee really should take a look at their approach and see if it was in keeping with the wishes of their membership and community.
Agree with this plus Crokes silence since the day speaks volumes IMO. Robbie Brennan usually has plenty to say in the media but the club also has circled the wagons. Brilliant club but this whole saga stains their reputation a bit unfortunately. Glen ran out of road when Crokes counter objected and refused to take part in a replay. Must leave a real incomplete feeling to the Derry champion's season.
I was in full support of Glen and think what theyve done has earned much respect. But now i see Ewan MacKenna says similar so now im not so sure 😉😃
KC have to go through with the appeal.
I can understand why Wattys pulled out but the timing wasn't great.
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on February 03, 2023, 10:35:22 PM
Dublin's AI in '95 was never tarnished and nor will this be.
Well done to Glen. I'm not exactly sure what you achieved but people talked about you for a wee while longer so that's a win.
Objection your honour!
Dublin's 95 win was pre social meeja. Plus it is remembered In the Logan household, if not across Tyrone.
Kilmacud have tarnished their name and it will be remembered.
Wattys pulling out is not happy ever after.
You and a few others on here and social media are tarnishing their name. They did very little wrong. Had the ref and 4th official done what they did with every other substitution there would be no issue at all...
I think Glen played a blinder here. The GAA should have owned the issue here from the start, a prompt replay probably being the right decision.
But they dragged their heels, hoping it would go away. Glen objected on point of principle, got the ball rolling, replay ordered as expected, KC object as expected and Glen walk away and let them sort it out amongst themselves.
Will GAA follow through now? If they don't they look even weaker. If they do it shows up the whole sorry episode to be even more of a farce than it is.
Pretty much agree with all that Look-Up
The GAA can either have the current appeals system ot the split season. They can't have both.
If the GAA had a fit for purpose appeals system perhaps Wattys would not have bailed out. Perhaps KC would have been exposed. Perhaps the rules would have been defended. Perhaps the title would be credible.
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on February 04, 2023, 01:05:15 PM
You and a few others on here and social media are tarnishing their name. They did very little wrong. Had the ref and 4th official done what they did with every other substitution there would be no issue at all...
They countered the Glen objection despite every man and his dog seeing they had 17 on the pitch.
They haven't covered themselves in glory.
Quote from: RedHand88 on February 04, 2023, 02:03:34 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on February 04, 2023, 01:05:15 PM
You and a few others on here and social media are tarnishing their name. They did very little wrong. Had the ref and 4th official done what they did with every other substitution there would be no issue at all...
They countered the Glen objection despite every man and his dog seeing they had 17 on the pitch.
They haven't covered themselves in glory.
They had 17 on the pitch because the ref started the game and 4th official didn't ensure the players had left the field. There is no fair outcome in this scenario, the rule needs to be changed and the refs and 4th officials need to ensure they don't make mistakes of this magnitude again. KC should not be punished with a replay for something the refs did wrong.
Should Glen be punished by having to play the final attack against an extra man when they needed a goal?
KC have responsibility to ensure they are playing the correct number of players. They failed in that regards. Glen didn't fail in anything. I
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on February 04, 2023, 02:16:11 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on February 04, 2023, 02:03:34 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on February 04, 2023, 01:05:15 PM
You and a few others on here and social media are tarnishing their name. They did very little wrong. Had the ref and 4th official done what they did with every other substitution there would be no issue at all...
They countered the Glen objection despite every man and his dog seeing they had 17 on the pitch.
They haven't covered themselves in glory.
They had 17 on the pitch because the ref started the game and 4th official didn't ensure the players had left the field. There is no fair outcome in this scenario, the rule needs to be changed and the refs and 4th officials need to ensure they don't make mistakes of this magnitude again. KC should not be punished with a replay for something the refs did wrong.
The CCCC threw out that argument.
The situation is a clusterfuck.
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 04, 2023, 02:21:38 PM
Should Glen be punished by having to play the final attack against an extra man when they needed a goal?
KC have responsibility to ensure they are playing the correct number of players. They failed in that regards. Glen didn't fail in anything. I
That's why KC are not worthy champions.
KC appeal against the decision was in bad taste and Glen where right to withdraw at that stage. 2022 void in my mind.
As objection withdrawn I presume KC are now officially AI Club SF Champions?
By the way the correct title fir the lad who gets the slips of paper is "Sideline Official" and he is the EIGHTH Official.
Quote from: Rossfan on February 04, 2023, 02:46:42 PM
As objection withdrawn I presume KC are now officially AI Club SF Champions?
By the way the correct title fir the lad who gets the slips of paper is "Sideline Official" and he is the EIGHTH Official.
Hard to know. I'd say the GAA would love to sweep this under the carpet now and move on but the process has been started. Rule clearly broken with clearly defined penalties.
A fine I don't think is still an option but wouldn't surprise me. Does either or both clubs refusing replay open them to disciplinary procedures? If both refuse is the competition null and void?
We'll see.
Does replay order now fall as Glen have withdrawn objection?
Quote from: Rossfan on February 04, 2023, 03:06:58 PM
Does replay order now fall as Glen have withdrawn objection?
You would think so- surely the replay decision overrides the result
Quote from: Rossfan on February 04, 2023, 03:06:58 PM
Does replay order now fall as Glen have withdrawn objection?
Absolutely no idea. GAA wouldn't start the process unless there was an objection (cop out). Glen objected so process was started. Once started I don't know if Glen withdrawing changes anything. Does the process have to be completed.
Bit like if someone assaults an individual say under a camera. That individual goes to Gardai with complaint. Gardai obtain CCTV evidence clearly showing assault. Individual withdraws complaint. But Gardai have the evidence and must proceed.
Compare KC attitude to that of Clare 25yrs ago when the Offaly game was replayed after the ref made a mistake and blew early.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on February 04, 2023, 03:50:57 PM
Compare KC attitude to that of Clare 25yrs ago when the Offaly game was replayed after the ref made a mistake and blew early.
Clare only agreed to replay as thought Colin Lynch suspension would be lifted
Didn't the GAA use the Rule that if a game doesn't run the full term a replay is mandatory?
Helped by the Biffo sit down protest of course
Right so, are KC champions or is the final null and void?
Quote from: johnnycool on February 04, 2023, 08:16:53 PM
Right so, are KC champions or is the final null and void?
If a club takes back its objection then I assume the objection isn't there anymore so KC who won the game on the day are champions
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 04, 2023, 08:31:10 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 04, 2023, 08:16:53 PM
Right so, are KC champions or is the final null and void?
If a club takes back its objection then I assume the objection isn't there anymore so KC who won the game on the day are champions
So we're meant to forget that the CCCC decided that the rules were broken even if Glenn withdraw their objection.
Quote from: johnnycool on February 04, 2023, 08:45:19 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 04, 2023, 08:31:10 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 04, 2023, 08:16:53 PM
Right so, are KC champions or is the final null and void?
If a club takes back its objection then I assume the objection isn't there anymore so KC who won the game on the day are champions
So we're meant to forget that the CCCC decided that the rules were broken even if Glenn withdraw their objection.
If they withdraw the original objection then what the CCCC found isn't applicable?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 04, 2023, 08:48:48 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 04, 2023, 08:45:19 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 04, 2023, 08:31:10 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 04, 2023, 08:16:53 PM
Right so, are KC champions or is the final null and void?
If a club takes back its objection then I assume the objection isn't there anymore so KC who won the game on the day are champions
So we're meant to forget that the CCCC decided that the rules were broken even if Glenn withdraw their objection.
If they withdraw the original objection then what the CCCC found isn't applicable?
Why?
Was the CCCC ruling conditional ?
I put a question mark in. ..
It would not surprise me if the GAA does not know what to do now. The slow appeals process is a farce.
Look neither party decided to work to the (albeit poor) GAA processes. So award neither the title. Might send a warning for future processes.
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 04, 2023, 09:55:41 PM
Look neither party decided to work to the (albeit poor) GAA processes. So award neither the title. Might send a warning for future processes.
Yep that's the precedent we need. Lodge an objection after you lose, then pull out of it when it's clear you can't win the popular vote. At least the other side doesn't get the title that way. That's exactly what we need. Exactly.
Quote from: thewobbler on February 04, 2023, 10:15:05 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 04, 2023, 09:55:41 PM
Look neither party decided to work to the (albeit poor) GAA processes. So award neither the title. Might send a warning for future processes.
Yep that's the precedent we need. Lodge an objection after you lose, then pull out of it when it's clear you can't win the popular vote. At least the other side doesn't get the title that way. That's exactly what we need. Exactly.
I'm glad we're in agreement.
That's not why Glen pulled out, they took it to the point, that the right thing was done, order a replay. KC objected, if unsuccessful they would appealed again further up the line, dragged any possible replay way out, then if unsuccessful, probably not place the game. Says alot about them to be honest.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on February 04, 2023, 10:28:39 PM
That's not why Glen pulled out, they took it to the point, that the right thing was done, order a replay. KC objected, if unsuccessful they would appealed again further up the line, dragged any possible replay way out, then if unsuccessful, probably not place the game. Says alot about them to be honest.
You have made lots of assumptions but Glen pulled out, they are in agreement as a club. Let it go
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 04, 2023, 01:11:03 PM
I think Glen played a blinder here. The GAA should have owned the issue here from the start, a prompt replay probably being the right decision.
But they dragged their heels, hoping it would go away. Glen objected on point of principle, got the ball rolling, replay ordered as expected, KC object as expected and Glen walk away and let them sort it out amongst themselves.
Will GAA follow through now? If they don't they look even weaker. If they do it shows up the whole sorry episode to be even more of a farce than it is.
I've said before here that in 2010 Swanlinbar objected to Corduff playing an U-16 player in the Ulster Junior Final. Swanlinbar wanted a replay (they did not want to be handed the trophy) but the only rule in the official guide for this infraction was forfeiture of the game for Corduff. The GAA had to follow through then on the rule so I wouldn't be surprised if they also follow through here as well and the replay still stands. Don't be shocked if Mannion or Walsh is kicking a ball into an empty net to end this farce once and for all.
Crokes look terrible in this. They played it so wrong and if the quiz question is ever asked who won the 2022 All Ireland Club I'll happily write down
No one
No idea where it goes from here, but one scenario I heard was that because glen are no longer engaging in the process, crokes automatically win their appeal and thus ccc decision is overturned.
We don't know how the 2 teams see things.
I imagine Wattys are extremely pissed off . They were effectively forced into objecting but did so in good faith and then KC refuse to accept the ruling. They probably wanted to have no further part to play in the charade. I imagine they are noy very happy with the GAA either.
At some stage in the future the Sunday World or the Herald will have a KC exclusive.
.
Quote from: seafoid on February 05, 2023, 06:00:55 AM
We don't know how the 2 teams see things.
I imagine Wattys are extremely pissed off . They were effectively forced into objecting but did so in good faith and then KC refuse to accept the ruling. They probably wanted to have no further part to play in the charade. I imagine they are noy very happy with the GAA either.
At some stage in the future the Sunday World or the Herald will have a KC exclusive.
.
Cheating and forced...
Glen were not cheated in my view and were not forced to object, it must be a procedure for a team to object/appeal before Croke or at county level that the ccc get involved. Regardless of how plain it was that KC had an extra player on the pitch.
The games over KC are the winners and Glen have made their point but didn't have the stomach to play the replay
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 05, 2023, 08:30:32 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 05, 2023, 06:00:55 AM
We don't know how the 2 teams see things.
I imagine Wattys are extremely pissed off . They were effectively forced into objecting but did so in good faith and then KC refuse to accept the ruling. They probably wanted to have no further part to play in the charade. I imagine they are noy very happy with the GAA either.
At some stage in the future the Sunday World or the Herald will have a KC exclusive.
.
Cheating and forced...
Glen were not cheated in my view and were not forced to object, it must be a procedure for a team to object/appeal before Croke or at county level that the ccc get involved. Regardless of how plain it was that KC had an extra player on the pitch.
The games over KC are the winners and Glen have made their point but didn't have the stomach to play the replay
That's your take.
Glen thought long and hard about appealing. The GAA's rules say the GAA doesn't initiate. KC then took the piss.
There is a lot of emotionin this which means there probably wont be much moving on.
Glen pulling out doesn't fix anything .
The replay should have been called on the Sunday evening for the following weekend. Absolute cop out from the GAA. Hoping Glen wouldnt appeal then hoping it would all go away. Shambles.
The Glen appeal is over surely - the outcome is a replay. Original result is currently void.
KC have now appealed. That process is yet to run it's course
Tommy Conlon in the FG rag needs a call out his vitriol towards Glen would be something like the Kremlin would be spouting.Out of their depth he needs to get a reality check.
There will probably be a bombshell interview with either with Declan Bogue of Gaelic Life at some point to kick the whole thing off again.
Glen pulling out doesn't finish anything . It might even be a tactical move. Wed don't know anything about what is actually happening,
i think people are bored of the whole thing now.
Quote from: skeog on February 05, 2023, 10:40:48 AM
Tommy Conlon in the FG rag needs a call out his vitriol towards Glen would be something like the Kremlin would be spouting.Out of their depth he needs to get a reality check.
He's a sc**bag that guy. The idea that a person would pay a subscription to read anything he writes is laughable.
About to comment on Conlon, seen that crap he's put in the Independent, like forget about the rules and the fact a team had 16 men on, but no Glen are bad losers for objecting.
Quote from: Eire90 on February 05, 2023, 11:21:41 AM
i think people are bored of the whole thing now.
Yes, the GAA fell over the line for the result they wanted. They left it as a slogfest between the two clubs until one of them backed down without them having to make a definitive decision.
They made both clubs look bad depending on what side you were looking from.
Time to draw a line. I do feel sorry for both clubs.
Quote from: seafoid on February 05, 2023, 11:07:44 AM
There will probably be a bombshell interview with either with Declan Bogue of Gaelic Life at some point to kick the whole thing off again.
Glen pulling out doesn't finish anything . It might even be a tactical move. Wed don't know anything about what is actually happening,
Glen withdrew their objection, that's done now. Move on
"We forget that the GAA way of doing things is ludicrous"
Good discussion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjpFQXzgm34&t=1300s
Quote from: skeog on February 05, 2023, 10:40:48 AM
Tommy Conlon in the FG rag needs a call out his vitriol towards Glen would be something like the Kremlin would be spouting.Out of their depth he needs to get a reality check.
In my view Tommy Conlon got it right.
Quote from: The Hill is Blue on February 05, 2023, 02:19:52 PM
Quote from: skeog on February 05, 2023, 10:40:48 AM
Tommy Conlon in the FG rag needs a call out his vitriol towards Glen would be something like the Kremlin would be spouting.Out of their depth he needs to get a reality check.
In my view Tommy Conlon got it right.
BS. “Glen scuttled away from the mess they created”
Where did Glen create the mess? All other parties were to blame apart from Glen - the GAA, KC and the officiating. Glen were backed into a corner and did the right thing appealing and then the right thing withdrawing. Arrogance for this fella to suggest otherwise.
Quote from: blasmere on February 05, 2023, 02:27:04 PM
Quote from: The Hill is Blue on February 05, 2023, 02:19:52 PM
Quote from: skeog on February 05, 2023, 10:40:48 AM
Tommy Conlon in the FG rag needs a call out his vitriol towards Glen would be something like the Kremlin would be spouting.Out of their depth he needs to get a reality check.
In my view Tommy Conlon got it right.
BS. "Glen scuttled away from the mess they created"
Where did Glen create the mess? All other parties were to blame apart from Glen - the GAA, KC and the officiating. Glen were backed into a corner and did the right thing appealing and then the right thing withdrawing. Arrogance for this fella to suggest otherwise.
Malachy O'Rourke's measured words after the game said all that needed to be said and the respect shown by the Glen players in remaining on the field during the presentation underlined the dignified statement of their manager. Unfortunately (anti)social media got to work almost immediately (fuelled largely by people outside the club and indeed outside Derry) and the rest is history.
Quote from: The Hill is Blue on February 05, 2023, 02:19:52 PM
Quote from: skeog on February 05, 2023, 10:40:48 AM
Tommy Conlon in the FG rag needs a call out his vitriol towards Glen would be something like the Kremlin would be spouting.Out of their depth he needs to get a reality check.
In my view Tommy Conlon got it right.
Scum comments, which fully reflect Dublin GAA's soccer-like mentality driven by greed and 'doesn't matter how you win' cheating. The modern Dublin GAA set up is the antithesis of everything the GAA stands for. 31 other counties tip their hat to Glen, who hold moral values KC can only dream of...charlatans
Quote from: OrchardOrange on February 05, 2023, 07:34:51 PM
Quote from: The Hill is Blue on February 05, 2023, 02:19:52 PM
Quote from: skeog on February 05, 2023, 10:40:48 AM
Tommy Conlon in the FG rag needs a call out his vitriol towards Glen would be something like the Kremlin would be spouting.Out of their depth he needs to get a reality check.
In my view Tommy Conlon got it right.
Scum comments, which fully reflect Dublin GAA's soccer-like mentality driven by greed and 'doesn't matter how you win' cheating. The modern Dublin GAA set up is the antithesis of everything the GAA stands for. 31 other counties tip their hat to Glen, who hold moral values KC can only dream of...charlatans
You are speaking for all 31 counties? Wow you're some pup
Tommy Conlons tweet about Bobby Sands a few years ago showed him up for the attention seeking p***k that he is. Just a lazy headline today by a poor journalist.
Quote from: ardtole on February 05, 2023, 08:14:49 PM
Tommy Conlons tweet about Bobby Sands a few years ago showed him up for the attention seeking p***k that he is. Just a lazy headline today by a poor journalist.
The journalist don't write the headline. Did you read the article?
Quote from: The Hill is Blue on February 05, 2023, 08:28:22 PM
Quote from: ardtole on February 05, 2023, 08:14:49 PM
Tommy Conlons tweet about Bobby Sands a few years ago showed him up for the attention seeking p***k that he is. Just a lazy headline today by a poor journalist.
The journalist don't write the headline. Did you read the article?
It reads like it was written by the Kilmacud Crokes PR department.
Well he def not speaking for u Milltown with u anti Derry bias over the past few years, maybe u need worry about Antrim football more.
Filth Dublin gutter-press journo tries to blame Glen for Kilmacud cheating. What a surprise
Quote from: seafoid on February 05, 2023, 08:51:28 PM
Quote from: The Hill is Blue on February 05, 2023, 08:28:22 PM
Quote from: ardtole on February 05, 2023, 08:14:49 PM
Tommy Conlons tweet about Bobby Sands a few years ago showed him up for the attention seeking p***k that he is. Just a lazy headline today by a poor journalist.
The journalist don't write the headline. Did you read the article?
It reads like it was written by the Kilmacud Crokes PR department.
.....or someone who simply has a different point of view. In every argument there are different points of view.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on February 05, 2023, 09:09:46 PM
Well he def not speaking tor u Milltown with u anti Derry bias over the past few years, maybe u need worry about Antrim football more.
You're very sore on me, I've a soft spot for my Derry friends, mainly the hurlers though. Let sleeping dogs lie
Was chatting to our club sec today and the opinion was the players should be the ones that decide and that was probably the case here. So move on and hopefully they put that behind them and move on to getting back next year
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on February 05, 2023, 09:09:46 PM
Well he def not speaking for u Milltown with u anti Derry bias over the past few years, maybe u need worry about Antrim football more.
Tbf to him he just argues about everything so it's not specific to Derry.
Quote from: imtommygunn on February 05, 2023, 09:18:37 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on February 05, 2023, 09:09:46 PM
Well he def not speaking for u Milltown with u anti Derry bias over the past few years, maybe u need worry about Antrim football more.
The to him he just argues about everything so it's not specific to Derry.
:D ;D
Quote from: OrchardOrange on February 05, 2023, 09:10:28 PM
Filth Dublin gutter-press journo tries to blame Glen for Kilmacud cheating. What a surprise
The psychiatric term is projection. Blaming someone else of what the person is guilty.
Nail on head. Conlon using the classic Tory/Trump strategy. Filth bag reporting
Quote from: OrchardOrange on February 05, 2023, 11:33:29 PM
Nail on head. Conlon using the classic Tory/Trump strategy. Filth bag reporting
I think it might be you who's using the Trump form of argument with your "alternative facts"
Quote from: The Hill is Blue on February 05, 2023, 11:40:53 PM
Quote from: OrchardOrange on February 05, 2023, 11:33:29 PM
Nail on head. Conlon using the classic Tory/Trump strategy. Filth bag reporting
I think it might be you who's using the Trump form of argument with your "alternative facts"
What alternative facts?
GAA formally award Kilmacud the title.
https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/kilmacud-crokes-formally-awarded-2023-aib-all-ireland-club-sfc/ (https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/kilmacud-crokes-formally-awarded-2023-aib-all-ireland-club-sfc/)
I look forward to refereeing club games this year :-X
I don't think anyone won.
The whole thing was a joke.
Representatives of Kilmacud Crokes and the C.C.C.C met today to consider the implications of the decision on Friday of Watty Graham's Glen to withdraw from the process initiated around the 2023 AIB All-Ireland Club Football Final.
The C.C.C.C, arising from an objection on behalf of Watty Graham's Glen, had ordered a replay of the game on the basis that in excess of the number of players permitted were on the field for the last play of the game.
The C.C.C.C Decision – communicated to the two Clubs on Tuesday of last week - had made it clear that this was not a deliberate action and that no fault was attributed to Kilmacud Crokes for the situation they found themselves in.
Upon a request from the C.C.C.C., Kilmacud Crokes, in the interests of fully resolving the matter, today agreed to withdraw their Appeal to the Central Appeals Committee.
A subsequent meeting of the C.C.C.C has formally awarded the 2023 All Ireland Club Championship to Kilmacud Crokes.
So, it's now the match officials to ensure each team has the correct number of players on the field.
If that was the case from the get go, why order a replay?
Quote from: oakleaflad on February 09, 2023, 01:27:02 PM
GAA formally award Kilmacud the title.
https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/kilmacud-crokes-formally-awarded-2023-aib-all-ireland-club-sfc/ (https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/kilmacud-crokes-formally-awarded-2023-aib-all-ireland-club-sfc/)
It's a complete double win for Crokes as they deservedly get the title but they also have extra motivation for next year to prove all the haters wrong.
Common sense prevails at last
Quote from: johnnycool on February 09, 2023, 04:58:08 PM
.
So, it's now the match officials to ensure each team has the correct number of players on the field.
Wasn't it always?
Quote from: johnnycool on February 09, 2023, 04:58:08 PM
Representatives of Kilmacud Crokes and the C.C.C.C met today to consider the implications of the decision on Friday of Watty Graham's Glen to withdraw from the process initiated around the 2023 AIB All-Ireland Club Football Final.
The C.C.C.C, arising from an objection on behalf of Watty Graham's Glen, had ordered a replay of the game on the basis that in excess of the number of players permitted were on the field for the last play of the game.
The C.C.C.C Decision – communicated to the two Clubs on Tuesday of last week - had made it clear that this was not a deliberate action and that no fault was attributed to Kilmacud Crokes for the situation they found themselves in.
Upon a request from the C.C.C.C., Kilmacud Crokes, in the interests of fully resolving the matter, today agreed to withdraw their Appeal to the Central Appeals Committee.
A subsequent meeting of the C.C.C.C has formally awarded the 2023 All Ireland Club Championship to Kilmacud Crokes.
So, it's now the match officials to ensure each team has the correct number of players on the field.
If that was the case from the get go, why order a replay?
argued this point and it was laughed out but hey!! If a sub is made the ref doesn't start game till he's off. They've been doing that for years
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/02/09/kilmacud-crokes-formally-confirmed-as-all-ireland-club-football-champions/
Within Kilmacud, there were views on either side: accept the award of the title or proceed with their appeal to the CAC and potentially to the DRA in order to vindicate their position.
Of course they might not have succeeded, which would have placed an asterisk over their situation and left them in reputational limbo, awarded the title but their counter-objection to the replay ordered by the Central Competitions Control Committee rejected.
These were narrow margins. Kilmacud were anxious to avoid being awarded the All-Ireland in the committee room, having won it on the field. But despite being asked, Glen made it clear that although they were withdrawing from the process, they were not withdrawing their objection to the result.
More worried about getting beat in a replay.
This is quite a good analysis by Paddy Andrews
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quSz-YLJDC0&t=3503s
Clare sub picked up a yellow from the ref for coming onto the field before the other Clare lad had left (by the looks of it).
Is this the start of the crackdown?
Quote from: johnnycool on February 13, 2023, 03:07:15 PM
Clare sub picked up a yellow from the ref for coming onto the field before the other Clare lad had left (by the looks of it).
Is this the start of the crackdown?
Is it a yellow card offence? Wonder what ruling that falls under?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 13, 2023, 03:16:52 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 13, 2023, 03:07:15 PM
Clare sub picked up a yellow from the ref for coming onto the field before the other Clare lad had left (by the looks of it).
Is this the start of the crackdown?
Is it a yellow card offence? Wonder what ruling that falls under?
Is there anything about entering the field of play without the referee's approval?
Quote from: johnnycool on February 13, 2023, 03:57:50 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 13, 2023, 03:16:52 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 13, 2023, 03:07:15 PM
Clare sub picked up a yellow from the ref for coming onto the field before the other Clare lad had left (by the looks of it).
Is this the start of the crackdown?
Is it a yellow card offence? Wonder what ruling that falls under?
Is there anything about entering the field of play without the referee's approval?
Managers are flat on the pitches every week locally...
Quote from: lenny on February 09, 2023, 06:16:21 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on February 09, 2023, 01:27:02 PM
GAA formally award Kilmacud the title.
https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/kilmacud-crokes-formally-awarded-2023-aib-all-ireland-club-sfc/ (https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/kilmacud-crokes-formally-awarded-2023-aib-all-ireland-club-sfc/)
It's a complete double win for Crokes as they deservedly get the title but they also have extra motivation for next year to prove all the haters wrong.
I wonder who they're eyeing up to sign for the club season next year? This split season certainly makes it more viable to entice guys on a short term one and done season.
Where and when is this replay everyone was so certain about?
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/02/20/gaa-congress-haunted-by-kilmacud-glen-controversy/
GAA Congress haunted by Kilmacud-Glen controversy
GAA President Larry McCarthy said the main lesson from the All-Ireland club football final was that rules about substitutions must be enforced. Photograph: Tom Maher/Inpho
Seán Moran
Mon Feb 20 2023
GAA president Larry McCarthy and director general Tom Ryan probably knew they would have to cope with the unexorcised ghost of the All-Ireland club football final when they trooped in for the weekend's post-congress media conference.
There had been no shortage of immediate business to process but given that the Kilmacud-Glen match had been raised on the floor of congress on Friday night, its currency was still buoyant.
Asked what were the lessons of the whole sorry episode, McCarthy was clear about the steps needed to address how Kilmacud had a 16th player on the field after an injury-time substitution.
"Don't let players on until players come off. Enforce it. The rule is there so enforce it. It was an unfortunate error so that would be the most basic thing, I think."