Armagh V Cavan - Ulster Championship - 15th June 2008

[AFS]

OK, so it struck me that a thread of its own was the best place to discuss the year's performances as a whole so far, and what options we have looking forward to the Championship, rather than bits and pieces at the end of threads about individual matches. So hopefully this thread can be used for all pre-championship discussion.

The league has been very topsy turvy to say the least! But we seem to be coming good of late with only the Meath performance significantly below par in the last month.

The following positions are nailed on for June:

1.
2. A Mallon
3.
4. Donaghy
5. A Kernan
6. A O'Rourke
7. McKeever
8. McGrane
9.
10. M. O'Rourke
11.
12.
13. McDonnell
14. Clarke
15.

Obviously there are a lot of blanks there, which for me is a good and bad thing. It demonstrates that we have more strength in depth in certain positions than we perhaps thought, but I would also have liked to have seen a more settled team at this point in the year.

So for me there are 6 positions to be determined:

Goalkeeper - Hearty or McKinney. Anyones guess who'll get the nod. I'd go for McKinney.

1 position in the Full Back line - Francie for defs if he's fit. If not then it will go to either Moriarty or McNulty. Of the latter two I'd go for McNulty but I'm hearing from several people that McDonnell rates Moriarty very highly, so I wouldn't be suprised at all to see him in there come June.

1 Midfielder - At the start of the year there seemed an abundance of riches: Toner, Lavery, Vernon, Loughran, Swift, O'Neill, Courtney, McKenna. But none have taken their opportunity to shine, which now leaves us in a very unhealthy position. Toner will probably get the go ahead because he has experience of championship football from last year. Personally, I'd love to see Lavery fit and getting a chance. Either that or someone donating one of their knees to John Toal.

Half Forward line - This is a nice selection dilemma as we seem to have 5/6 players going for the 3 positions. Only Martin O'Rourke is a certain starter. If Paddy McKeever can keep up the recent form he merits inclusion (another positive that he has provided in the last few games is good left sided free taking, as A Kernan seems to be having a lot of problems with the frees this year with both Cross and Armagh). That leaves one position between Vernon with his powerful running, or S Kernan with his excellent passing and superior scoring threat. Horses for courses on that choice for me. And then throw B Mallon into the mix and we have some very good options in this line.

No. 15 - For me this is a straight choice between Oisin and T Kernan. Perhaps B Mallon might offer more from play than either of those two, but as anyone who watched our first couple of league games this year could tell you, we, as all teams do, need a reliable right sided free taker.

So anyone else got any thought on potential team selections (even if you just cut and paste over from other threads)?

Also what does everyone make of Peter McDonnell so far? I'd give him an OK, but just an OK. He's done well to give so many of the newer players the opportunity to shine, but he has also been ridiculously slow to act on events during games. How long is he going to let us get cleaned out at midfield without devising some sort of plan to counter it? Methinks he needs to watch as many DVDs of Tyrone during the period from 2003 to 2005 as he can get his hands on, where they managed to win two AIs despite having no midfield, and find out how they coped.

It would also be interesting to hear from posters from other counties to see where we are at present in their eyes.

[bennydorano]

At the minute my team would be along the lines of

   McKinney   
McNulty   Donaghy   Mallon
AK   AOR   CmcK
MCGrane          Toner
MOR   SK   Vernon
Mallon   Clarke   McDonnell

IMO, I reckon as a team our main liabilities are Hearty in nets, McNulty, Bellew and Paddy McKeever.  Has to be either McNulty or Bellew in the FB line, dont think we can accommodate them both any more.  Worringly, McDonnell does seem to be a huge fan of Moriarity.

McGrane has had a poor enough year to date and I'm hoping he'll give it a serious lash as I wouldn't be expecting him back next year, Toner has been the most consistent of our new MF'ers, don't think anyone has done enough to displace him.

I'm not sure that Vernon has done enough to nail down a place on the starting 15, but he would be on my team as I have seen on numerous occasions what he is capable off and with a bit of confidence he can do the same for the county.  Paddy McKeever had a good end to the League, but he always seems to be very indisciplined and inconsistent, MOR, SK and CV gives a good line of creativity and doggedness.  There's only one place up for grabs in the FF line, TK's star has certainly faded from his Cavan debut, a fully fit Brian Mallon would get my vote. 

[Imposerous]

AFS – I seem to agree with most of you previous games analysis – can I be you best buddy too?

Keeper – McKinney is my choice (say his name quickly and you'd swear it was Geezer – but this is not the most compelling argument).  While he hasn't the physical presence of Hearty, the latter has been decidedly dodgy recently and I think is that wee bit more prone to a clanger.  McKinney is a good shot stopper and can pick out a man in space (from play not necessarily kickouts, even though I do believe him better in this area too).  His kickouts on Sunday were a bit skied; he seemed to be getting under them rather than through them for length (the tees are too high) – but this is easily resolvable.  Having Francie in front of him will add a bit of reassurance for dropping balls... which leads me nicely to...

Francie – went down to the Harps v Cross game on Sunday evening and Francie came on.  He looked fresh enough following his solid performance earlier on in the day and he was again solid.  Followed his man out the field and got a good strong tackling hand in.  I think if fit he should come in at number 3 and young Donaghy, who has been impressive, could move to the corner.  Donaghy has great pace and mobility and is a good reader of the game.  I think he and Andy Mallon (Gareth Barry lookelikie) would be perfect on either side of Francie.  Donahghy's pace is such an attribute that opposing team's deliveries into the corner will need to be pinpoint as Donaghy has the pace to win an ensuing race or get a hand in.

Half Back Line – picks itself.  Some have reservations about Aaron's defending, but I feel this League campaign has seen him defend better than ever with a number of dispossessions and interceptions (seems to have added a bit more steel to his play too).  I also think that his forays into the attacking area may not have to be frequent or as deep as the sudden appearance of a half forward line and greater movement up front has presented better passing opportunities, of which he has the vision and passing ability to exploit.  Added to this is O'Rourke's passing, which has to me taken a bit of the pressure of the backs.  We have been keeping a much better shape all over the field, and players have not had to compensate in other areas of the field than their brief.  It's a simpler game and suits us.  Our forward line don't thrive on high long balls: these men are classy ball players and can offer more creatively and in potency with the better ball being delivered and the man offering support off the shoulder.

Midfield:  It is a problem area.  McGrane is not the force of old.  The options we have for the middle are potentially very good indeed.  However, I feel it is a year or two too soon for them in an area of the field with such responsibility.  Of all the best midfields in the country what age are the players when they are considered to be at their best in this sector?  I would go with Toner.  He is strong, mobile, has good hands and a great tackler. [by the by, I wouldn't mind seeing a Mallon/Toner/Donaghy full back line in a few years with a McKenna/Lavery midfield – shure only time will tell).

Half forward line: I have said before that I think we have been playing a nicer - and more effective for creating scoring chances - kind of game, which has come from the players available to receive the ball in this area of the field.  And it's an area in which we have options.  Stephen Kernan has really stepped up this year.  He has added a bit of creativity and sends lovely balls inside (Ooo matron).  I have criticised MOR in the past but he has played fantastically so far this season.  A nark who will win frees and win dirty ball and get under the skin of the opposition.  In saying this, I don't underestimate his footballing abilities and he has shown he has pretty good vision himself.  It's why I'd have him ahead of Paddy McKeever in the CHF role.  Paddy has had two good performances (Dublin particularly), but I think his passing ability has been overstated.  I think he sees passes, but maybe doesn't consistently hit his target: a bit like his free-taking.  Your heart can be in your mouth sometimes.  He does offer a physicality and, like our other forward options, his attributes could be employed strategically.  Yesterday, I would have liked to see Vernon in the remaining slot, but Brian Mallon looked a bit like his old self yesterday, full of incisive running and if he's fit, it'd be a toss up.  Vernon has looked a bit leaden footed, but he offers great ball carrying ability and will win frees in scorable positions.  Have seen him player better and b  Not sure if his fitness is anywhere near 100%, and would expect better from him in the hard ground of summer.  Courtney, I feel, should have been given a couple of more opportunities.

Full Forward Line: Only one position up for grabs here.  For me Tony Kernan should get his chance.  Our best performances have come with him on the field.  He has very good vision and passing ability too.  His movement has been fantastic; dragging defenders from the danger zone creating exploitable space.  A totally honest and brave young lad.  He also offers scoring ability  and is a reliable enough free-taker.  He's the one I'd start with. 

Easy, isn't it.

[bennydorano]

Francie – went down to the Harps v Cross game on Sunday evening and Francie came on.  He looked fresh enough following his solid performance earlier on in the day and he was again solid.  Followed his man out the field and got a good strong tackling hand in.  I think if fit he should come in at number 3 and young Donaghy, who has been impressive, could move to the corner.  Donaghy has great pace and mobility and is a good reader of the game.  I think he and Andy Mallon (Gareth Barry lookelikie) would be perfect on either side of Francie.  Donahghy's pace is such an attribute that opposing team's deliveries into the corner will need to be pinpoint as Donaghy has the pace to win an ensuing race or get a hand in.

That's clutching a bit attaching any credibilty to that performance, Harps were a beaten team when he came on and he played at wing half back ffs!

[Imposerous]

Oooo, touchy Benny.  Understandable.  Harps were beaten when the Cross pulled into Abbey Park.  A spineless performance, truth be told.

Francie did what was asked of him.  And his man was fresh off the subs bench, buslting MOR type of player.  So, having had a full 70 mins intercounty earlier (esp having just come back) and judging on what Francie did, I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that Francie is on his way back, and whay I'd like to see him start against Antrim/Cavan.  No?  FFS!

[bennydorano]

The player who came on was Harpo McKenna and believe it or not he was described later(in some quarters) in the social club as Harps MOTM!! He'll love the MOR comparison!

[Imposerous]

Neither will win any beauty competitions  .

[Uladh]

I suppose i threw my tuppence worth into the cork thread so i'll just copy it here....

Disappointed with McKinney's kick outs in that he seemed to be getting under or slicing a lot of them. for the second week running there was a lot of pointing and shouting from the midfield. It's still McKinney as number one for me though. Francie showed a lot more sharpness and aggression yesterday and seems to be regaining his form. still 8 weeks at least to the championship so he should be near enough by then. the two corner backs were out to lunch yesterday. moriarty was solid enough first half but awful playing with the breeze. paul k was terrible throughout. caught ball watching, allowing his man away from him in behind and very poor in possession coming out. mallon should have been in sooner.

the half back line were their usual dependable selves. McKeever closes down whoever he marks and picks his breaks forward very well. i would expect him to win more break ball though. aaron's strengths and weaknesses are well known and i guess we're just gonna have to live with the frees he concedes every week. also very weak on the break ball. AOR had a quiet enough game but essentially rescued the game scoring one and setting up 2 of the last 4 points when the game was in the melting pot.

Midfield is a worry. Unlike a lot of poster i felt McGrane did well. he wasn't competing against Murphy directly at any stage and won lots of ball, even if it wasn't soaring fetches. McKenna is one for the future but will hardly play championship football this summer. it was good to see loughran on the pitch even if he did look rusty. it can only increase mcdonnell's options.

Brian mallon was very industrious before going off and almost had a great goal. i really like mallon as a player and he provides a cutting edge and sharpness noone else really does when he's on form. disappointed with vernon and McKeever. Vernon takes the wrong option quite a bit and doesn't release the ball until he's exhausted every avenue of carrying it first. McKeever as we know is very talented but how lazy is he? Only for O'Rourke jnr showing from behind him there'd have been no link to the two inside men. McKeever looked like a man happy with his performance last week and going through the motions. mighty free at the end though!

Orourke junior showed plety of promise i felt. his willingness to actually show in front is something that has been lacking in the team. he wasted a couple of opportunities early on but his first half point was probably the score of the game. i certainly think he carries more threat from open play than tony k or Oisin and its a pity he didn't get more game time in the league.Yestreday confirmed what most of us have suspected about oisin. there's a lot less in the legs than there used be and impact sub s his role now. mighty sideline ball and usual good frees but a few uncharachteristic misses from play. he is easily contained at this level die to his lack of pace and strength. i think swift has used up his last chance. showed well early on but chose to shoot continually from tight angles when there were men better placed around him. he became very static in the second half and could have come off earlier.

all in all a strong enough finish to the league. McDonnell will undoubtedly have learned much more than use mere mortals and i'm sure he'll have at least 13 of his championship side formulated. its a long time to the first round of ulster though and you never know what injuries might occur. at this moment i'd go for

                    McKinney

McNulty          Donaghy         Mallon
McKeever       O'Rourke         Kernan

            McGrane       Toner

Kernan s         Mallon             O'rourke
McDonnell       Clarke             O'Rourke

The three major areas for decision are in the full back line each of the forward lines. if McNulty can find his form i think he will be in. at ing forward i think it could come down to who you're playing and whether the guile of kernan or the power of vernon is needed. then i think its a straight decision between tony kernan and o'rourke junior and i think o'rourke contributes far more from play and i'm not sure kernan's free taking will be a necessity.

By the way, i'm sure there'll be challenge games, rumours, etc. between now and june so in the interest of not polluting the non armagh contributers maybe we could keep it all here.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Oooo, touchy Benny.  Understandable.  Harps were beaten when the Cross pulled into Abbey Park.  A spineless performance, truth be told.

Given your own words (above) horse, it only further highlights the irrelevance of using Francie's perfromance against us as justification for inclusion in the Ulster Senior Championship.

By the way - a straight talking poster - always a welcome addition to any thread. I look forward to hearing equally frank assessmnets of your own team's performances throughout this season, on this public forum!   

[Imposerous]

Rufus, I've a feeling you may already know my identity.  And who knows, perhaps comments on my team's performances are already adequately documented by a well known City scribe.

Never hurts to play devil's advocate in a debate though (Benny didn't bite) and maybe the odd scathing comment from a 'perceived' outsider may help spark a bit of fire in the 'bellies'.

[Real1995]

Any word of a final championship panel?? should be announced fairly soon i'd say

[AFS]

Anyone heading to the Wexford game at Clann Eireann this Sunday?

Might be interesting enough, possibly a last chance saloon game for several lads that are facing the chop from the championship panel.

[Hank Everlast]

i thot it may have been one of those games where the armagh team is one made up mostly of clann eirean players with a few county men in for good measure!

[AFS]

i thot it may have been one of those games where the armagh team is one made up mostly of clann eirean players with a few county men in for good measure!

Probably right, but just thought that considering the time of year it is and the fact we don't play for ages, that there'd maybe be a few more familiar faces than expected.

[AFS]

Armagh 1-13 Wexford 0-09

Hearty
P Kernan
Bellew
McDonald
A Kernan
Toner
Courtenay
McKenna
Vernon
S Kernan
J Murtagh
Shorty Clarke
Oisin
Ryan Henderson (c)
S Forker

Wasn't at the game but apparently this was the team according to the Irish News, although I've heard from other sources that Moriarty and Mallon played in the backline.

By all accounts it seems to have been little more than a run around. Still good to get a win and good for Francie and some of the other boys to get more game time. Would be hard to see Wexford putting up much in the week after their league success, although they did have Matty Forde playing. I wonder about R Henderson too, he seems to be a young lad with potential and even though the main reason he would have been playing was due to it being his club's big day, i'm sure Peter McDonnell would've had half an eye on him with the county in mind.