ukraine regime change

[Hardy]

Ukraine, like Poland is one of those terribly unfortunate countries, fated by geography to be a battleground for competing ideologies - during the Second World War it was where some of the bitterest atrocities between Nazism and Communism took place.

And after the war the internecine savagery was possibly even worse. Savage Continent is one of the most eye-opening (and depressing) histories I've read.

It's getting worrying now with the Russians describing events in Kiev as a coup, talk of "fraternal assistance" for Ukraine - the phrase the USSR used for its "assistance" to Czechoslovakia in 1968 - and even unconfirmed rumours of troop movements.

[easytiger95]

Unfortunately, it is not only a question of economic ideologies. To take the Irish example, some really think they are Russian and some have lost any real sense of being different from Russians as we have west British people here. Also some of those who do not want to be Russian do not necessarily oppose government control of the economy, so like Sinn Féin many of those who want independence haven't the economic policies to make it work.

Which is why the useful fudge of a pan-European identity is the best thing for the situation. We slag off the EU all the time, and with good reason at times, but its basic function was to create a continental entity which we could all own, and in doing so, avoid the bloodbaths of the two world wars.

Ukraine, like Poland is one of those terribly unfortunate countries, fated by geography to be a battleground for competing ideologies - during the Second World War it was where some of the bitterest atrocities between Nazism and Communism took place.

And after the war the internecine savagery was possibly even worse. Savage Continent is one of the most eye-opening (and depressing) histories I've read.

It's getting worrying now with the Russians describing events in Kiev as a coup, talk of "fraternal assistance" for Ukraine - the phrase the USSR used for its "assistance" to Czechoslovakia in 1968 - and even unconfirmed rumours of troop movements.

Just read this morning that Moscow recalled their ambassador. At this stage a return of the Cold War looks like the best of bad bunch of options.

[seafoid]

Unfortunately, it is not only a question of economic ideologies. To take the Irish example, some really think they are Russian and some have lost any real sense of being different from Russians as we have west British people here. Also some of those who do not want to be Russian do not necessarily oppose government control of the economy, so like Sinn Féin many of those who want independence haven't the economic policies to make it work.

If they had more money these problems would be easier to resolve

[lawnseed]

Unfortunately, it is not only a question of economic ideologies. To take the Irish example, some really think they are Russian and some have lost any real sense of being different from Russians as we have west British people here. Also some of those who do not want to be Russian do not necessarily oppose government control of the economy, so like Sinn Féin many of those who want independence haven't the economic policies to make it work.

What? Are you on smirnoff? Its not russian or ukrainian you know. Its west brit..
So the russians and yanks have been thwarted by the good guy EU? The same crowd who sacked the elected primeminister of greece when he disagreed with their plans for his country. Tell me this whos the baddest the yanks or russians? Who'd you prefer to side with if you had to?

[thejuice]

All the talk from Moscow today is a bit worrying. Communism may have bit the dust but the Cold War still goes on. The west seems keen to box in Russia as much as possible and desperate to get a strategic toe hold on the Crimean Sea. Russia might just hold onto their pal Assad in Syria but not for long I imagine. I'm not sure if Russia would actually dare escalate to putting troops into Ukraine but they are probably going to stoke the flames of separatism.

In regards someone's earlier comment about Pan-national European identity, while I agree there is a need for a stronger sense of European identity in a globalised world, a lot of trouble would be avoided if the diverse range of Ethnic European identities were respected by national governments. Cataluna being a prime example of a national government poking a sleeping bear with a stick, at their own peril usually.

[armaghniac]

All the talk from Moscow today is a bit worrying. Communism may have bit the dust but the Cold War still goes on. The west seems keen to box in Russia as much as possible and desperate to get a strategic toe hold on the Crimean Sea.

This is a bit simplistic. Bulgaria and Romania are already in the EU and on the Black Sea. The Baltic States are already in the EU.  If the Ukraine wants closer ties with the EU should the EU say "feck off, you belong to Russia?"?

[thejuice]

Of course it's not the whole picture, it's one paragraph briefly summarising my speculative thoughts on the geopolitical side of things. It's funny how the way things are panning out much the way geo-political strategists in the west and most notably those closely connected to the White House have been saying.

Is it a mere coincidence that this is happening more or less when Russia was trying to present a different image of itself with the Olympics. Could well be. Who can say.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

You have Russia supporting the Syrian government and close ties to Iran.
You have Turkey now operating troops in Syria.
Of course Islamic groups, Lebanon and Israel are all factors there too.
Turkey's less healthy relationship with Israel and a destablised Egypt.

If Russia decide to send troops into Ukraine do the EU and USA stand back like happened with Georgia? In the very very unlikely circumstance Europe and the Americans did the same surely that would leave Japan and Taiwan majorly exposed to China and a new Korean War more likely with less chance of US, Aussie etc. troops on the ground.

If French sent troops and got dragged in, they would surely pull stablising troops out of Africa. If the Brits got dragged in, would the Falklands fall!

[armaghniac]

If the Brits got dragged in, would the Falklands fall!

We could get Russian help and liberate Cross'!

[Rossfan]

You have Russia supporting the Syrian government and close ties to Iran.
You have Turkey now operating troops in Syria.
Of course Islamic groups, Lebanon and Israel are all factors there too.
Turkey's less healthy relationship with Israel and a destablised Egypt.

If Russia decide to send troops into Ukraine do the EU and USA stand back like happened with Georgia? In the very very unlikely circumstance Europe and the Americans did the same surely that would leave Japan and Taiwan majorly exposed to China and a new Korean War more likely with less chance of US, Aussie etc. troops on the ground.

If French sent troops and got dragged in, they would surely pull stablising troops out of Africa. If the Brits got dragged in, would the Falklands fall!

If all the above happens put ye're money on the Rhubarbs to win Sam.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

You have Russia supporting the Syrian government and close ties to Iran.
You have Turkey now operating troops in Syria.
Of course Islamic groups, Lebanon and Israel are all factors there too.
Turkey's less healthy relationship with Israel and a destablised Egypt.

If Russia decide to send troops into Ukraine do the EU and USA stand back like happened with Georgia? In the very very unlikely circumstance Europe and the Americans did the same surely that would leave Japan and Taiwan majorly exposed to China and a new Korean War more likely with less chance of US, Aussie etc. troops on the ground.

If French sent troops and got dragged in, they would surely pull stablising troops out of Africa. If the Brits got dragged in, would the Falklands fall!

If all the above happens put ye're money on the Rhubarbs to win Sam.

All of the above are more reason if the Russians go in, Europe and the US will do nothing.

[lawnseed]

Russians have seized the two airports in crimear. warming up nicely. Id say we are witnessing the birth of the URA. Ukraine rep army

[Maguire01]

Russians have seized the two airports in crimear. warming up nicely. Id say we are witnessing the birth of the URA. Ukraine rep army

Wherever crimear is.

[lawnseed]

Hopefully the russians will restore democracy to ukraine. They provide a threat and foil to the nazis who  have seized power with western backing. Russia cancel the west leaving the ukrainians to sort this out. Theyve bankrolled this basket case country the germans think theyre gonna take over unhindered.

This could be a job for the euro rapid force. No doubt gimp kenny and vlad varadkar will volunteer "our boys"

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Hopefully the russians will restore democracy to ukraine. They provide a threat and foil to the nazis who  have seized power with western backing. Russia cancel the west leaving the ukrainians to sort this out. Theyve bankrolled this basket case country the germans think theyre gonna take over unhindered.

This could be a job for the euro rapid force. No doubt gimp kenny and vlad varadkar will volunteer "our boys"

You are beyond insane if you think the thugs in Moscow are in the right here. Russia's empire games have no place in the Ukraine, ethnic minority or not. The Tatar minority in Crimea will stand up to the Russian imperialists even if the Ukrainian army don't.