Free Staters and their hypocrisy on their violent, bloody past

[Lar Naparka]

One of the big differences between the Old IRA and the PIRA was the level of popular support. the Old IRA had over 80% of the population onside
The PIRA didn't even have 40%.
That is a massive difference in a revolutionary war.

Interesting numbers. Both them. Source?

SF had a landslide in the 1918 election. Catholics in S. Ireland were at least 80% and strongly nationalist
In NI in the late 60s the catholic population was max 40% and taking half as supporting the armed struggle would be generous. 


There's a parallel with the SNP in Scotland now. They don't have enough of a majority to definitely win an independence vote. They would need to be at 70% or more for that,
In NI the population now  is split 50/50.

They sure did win by a landslide but I doubt if the methods they used to achieve this could be used today.  The returns saw SF winning 73 seats, the unionists won26 and the old parliamentary party only won 6.
So the shinners won comfortably or so it seemed.
They were returned unopposed in 26 constituencies because they had kindly offered to shoot any nationalist who stood against them and the old redmondites were unable to find  candidates to stand for them in the places where the Shinners had a clear run.
According toi the historian JC Beckettt: " The victory was less sweeping than it seemed; it received less than half the votes in the remainder, and it is very probable that a a good many of those votes reflected anger against the government and contempt for the home rule party than convinced support for a full republican programme. But this did not alter the fact that Sinn Fein could now claim, with justice, to represent majority opinion in Ireland."

[Snapchap]

What was the legitimate case for the Provos bearing arms in the 26?
And then using them to murder Gardai, Pte.Kelly, Prison Officer Stack, a Protestant Senator, Tom Oliver, bank robbing, kidnapping etc etc.
What ever happened to Army Order 8?

Didn't the Old IRA also rob banks and Post Offices, and do so on a routine basis?

Was it OK back then?

[dublin7]

What was the legitimate case for the Provos bearing arms in the 26?
And then using them to murder Gardai, Pte.Kelly, Prison Officer Stack, a Protestant Senator, Tom Oliver, bank robbing, kidnapping etc etc.
What ever happened to Army Order 8?

Didn't the Old IRA also rob banks and Post Offices, and do so on a routine basis?

Was it OK back then?

Your refusal to acknowledge any wrong doing by the IRA is remarkable and admirable in a strange way. Despite everything you're sticking to whataboutery from a century ago as if that somehow makes everything ok

[sid waddell]

It's quite delicious to see all our resident Provos suddenly coming across as the bastard love children of Eoghan Harris and Ruth Dudley Edwards. 

Their self hatred must be off the charts.

[trueblue1234]

What was the legitimate case for the Provos bearing arms in the 26?
And then using them to murder Gardai, Pte.Kelly, Prison Officer Stack, a Protestant Senator, Tom Oliver, bank robbing, kidnapping etc etc.
What ever happened to Army Order 8?

Didn't the Old IRA also rob banks and Post Offices, and do so on a routine basis?

Was it OK back then?

Your refusal to acknowledge any wrong doing by the IRA is remarkable and admirable in a strange way. Despite everything you're sticking to whataboutery from a century ago as if that somehow makes everything ok

I'd be keen to see what posters thinks there was no wrong doing by the PIRA?
Pointing out a poster's hypocrisy can add context to the debate and highlights inconsistencies in their argument. This "whataboutary" has certainly tied a few people in knots.

[Snapchap]

What was the legitimate case for the Provos bearing arms in the 26?
And then using them to murder Gardai, Pte.Kelly, Prison Officer Stack, a Protestant Senator, Tom Oliver, bank robbing, kidnapping etc etc.
What ever happened to Army Order 8?

Didn't the Old IRA also rob banks and Post Offices, and do so on a routine basis?

Was it OK back then?

Your refusal to acknowledge any wrong doing by the IRA is remarkable and admirable in a strange way. Despite everything you're sticking to whataboutery from a century ago as if that somehow makes everything ok

I've never once denied wrongdoing by the IRA. If you can find a quote where I did, please post it up.

I have repeatedly said both the Old IRA and PIRA carried out unjustifiable actions. I have merely pointed out that the Old IRA  killed at least the same, and in all liklihood a higher, proportion of civilians than the PIRA did. How is it "whataboutery" to examine the actions of the Old IRA in a thread specifically about them?

[michaelg]

What was the legitimate case for the Provos bearing arms in the 26?
And then using them to murder Gardai, Pte.Kelly, Prison Officer Stack, a Protestant Senator, Tom Oliver, bank robbing, kidnapping etc etc.
What ever happened to Army Order 8?

Didn't the Old IRA also rob banks and Post Offices, and do so on a routine basis?

Was it OK back then?

Your refusal to acknowledge any wrong doing by the IRA is remarkable and admirable in a strange way. Despite everything you're sticking to whataboutery from a century ago as if that somehow makes everything ok

I've never once denied wrongdoing by the IRA. If you can find a quote where I did, please post it up.

I have repeatedly said both the Old IRA and PIRA carried out unjustifiable actions. I have merely pointed out that the Old IRA  killed at least the same, and in all liklihood a higher, proportion of civilians than the PIRA did. How is it "whataboutery" to examine the actions of the Old IRA in a thread specifically about them?

Which PIRA actions were you happy enough about?  The 300+ RUC personnel murdered okay?

[seafoid]

One of the big differences between the Old IRA and the PIRA was the level of popular support. the Old IRA had over 80% of the population onside
The PIRA didn't even have 40%.
That is a massive difference in a revolutionary war.

Interesting numbers. Both them. Source?

SF had a landslide in the 1918 election. Catholics in S. Ireland were at least 80% and strongly nationalist
In NI in the late 60s the catholic population was max 40% and taking half as supporting the armed struggle would be generous. 


There's a parallel with the SNP in Scotland now. They don't have enough of a majority to definitely win an independence vote. They would need to be at 70% or more for that,
In NI the population now  is split 50/50.

They sure did win by a landslide but I doubt if the methods they used to achieve this could be used today.  The returns saw SF winning 73 seats, the unionists won26 and the old parliamentary party only won 6.
So the shinners won comfortably or so it seemed.
They were returned unopposed in 26 constituencies because they had kindly offered to shoot any nationalist who stood against them and the old redmondites were unable to find  candidates to stand for them in the places where the Shinners had a clear run.
According toi the historian JC Beckettt: " The victory was less sweeping than it seemed; it received less than half the votes in the remainder, and it is very probable that a a good many of those votes reflected anger against the government and contempt for the home rule party than convinced support for a full republican programme. But this did not alter the fact that Sinn Fein could now claim, with justice, to represent majority opinion in Ireland."

It wasn't a clean transition but once it was done thre was no turning back. There was a tipping point after the 1916 executions that did for Home Rule. The way of the gun won. The trauma afterwards wasn't costed.
Staying in the Union would have been more profitable but it was rejected.Compare to Scotland.

[Snapchap]

What was the legitimate case for the Provos bearing arms in the 26?
And then using them to murder Gardai, Pte.Kelly, Prison Officer Stack, a Protestant Senator, Tom Oliver, bank robbing, kidnapping etc etc.
What ever happened to Army Order 8?

Didn't the Old IRA also rob banks and Post Offices, and do so on a routine basis?

Was it OK back then?

Your refusal to acknowledge any wrong doing by the IRA is remarkable and admirable in a strange way. Despite everything you're sticking to whataboutery from a century ago as if that somehow makes everything ok

I've never once denied wrongdoing by the IRA. If you can find a quote where I did, please post it up.

I have repeatedly said both the Old IRA and PIRA carried out unjustifiable actions. I have merely pointed out that the Old IRA  killed at least the same, and in all liklihood a higher, proportion of civilians than the PIRA did. How is it "whataboutery" to examine the actions of the Old IRA in a thread specifically about them?

Which PIRA actions were you happy enough about?  The 300+ RUC personnel murdered okay?

I'm not "happy" about any deaths but I regard the PIRA campaign as having been legitimate and the utterly discredited and sectarian RUC were willing protagonists in that conflict and as such were wholly legitimate targets.

[clonadmad]

It's quite delicious to see all our resident Provos suddenly coming across as the bastard love children of Eoghan Harris and Ruth Dudley Edwards. 

Their self hatred must be off the charts.

They hate the IRA of the war of independence era because they were led and manned by Southerners

And the key point

They Won

They drove the Brits out of their areas

Something they couldn't achieve in the north

[michaelg]

What was the legitimate case for the Provos bearing arms in the 26?
And then using them to murder Gardai, Pte.Kelly, Prison Officer Stack, a Protestant Senator, Tom Oliver, bank robbing, kidnapping etc etc.
What ever happened to Army Order 8?

Didn't the Old IRA also rob banks and Post Offices, and do so on a routine basis?

Was it OK back then?

Your refusal to acknowledge any wrong doing by the IRA is remarkable and admirable in a strange way. Despite everything you're sticking to whataboutery from a century ago as if that somehow makes everything ok

I've never once denied wrongdoing by the IRA. If you can find a quote where I did, please post it up.

I have repeatedly said both the Old IRA and PIRA carried out unjustifiable actions. I have merely pointed out that the Old IRA  killed at least the same, and in all liklihood a higher, proportion of civilians than the PIRA did. How is it "whataboutery" to examine the actions of the Old IRA in a thread specifically about them?

Which PIRA actions were you happy enough about?  The 300+ RUC personnel murdered okay?

I'm not "happy" about any deaths but I regard the PIRA campaign as having been legitimate and the utterly discredited and sectarian RUC were willing protagonists in that conflict and as such were wholly legitimate targets.

Pretty sad that the cold blooded murder of felloe Irish men and women, often shot in the back etc, can be described as wholly legitimate.

[Snapchap]

What was the legitimate case for the Provos bearing arms in the 26?
And then using them to murder Gardai, Pte.Kelly, Prison Officer Stack, a Protestant Senator, Tom Oliver, bank robbing, kidnapping etc etc.
What ever happened to Army Order 8?

Didn't the Old IRA also rob banks and Post Offices, and do so on a routine basis?

Was it OK back then?

Your refusal to acknowledge any wrong doing by the IRA is remarkable and admirable in a strange way. Despite everything you're sticking to whataboutery from a century ago as if that somehow makes everything ok

I've never once denied wrongdoing by the IRA. If you can find a quote where I did, please post it up.

I have repeatedly said both the Old IRA and PIRA carried out unjustifiable actions. I have merely pointed out that the Old IRA  killed at least the same, and in all liklihood a higher, proportion of civilians than the PIRA did. How is it "whataboutery" to examine the actions of the Old IRA in a thread specifically about them?

Which PIRA actions were you happy enough about?  The 300+ RUC personnel murdered okay?

I'm not "happy" about any deaths but I regard the PIRA campaign as having been legitimate and the utterly discredited and sectarian RUC were willing protagonists in that conflict and as such were wholly legitimate targets.

Pretty sad that the cold blooded murder of felloe Irish men and women, often shot in the back etc, can be described as wholly legitimate.

Yip. And the reasons why it got to that point were pretty sad too. Or maybe the croppies should have lay down.

*EDIT*
Were you only talking about RUC members shot in the back in cold blood beimg "sad"? It was also sad how many were shot in the back in cold blood by the RUC either directly, or through the RUCs collusion with loyalist paramilitary gangs.

[Armagh18]

What was the legitimate case for the Provos bearing arms in the 26?
And then using them to murder Gardai, Pte.Kelly, Prison Officer Stack, a Protestant Senator, Tom Oliver, bank robbing, kidnapping etc etc.
What ever happened to Army Order 8?

Didn't the Old IRA also rob banks and Post Offices, and do so on a routine basis?

Was it OK back then?

Your refusal to acknowledge any wrong doing by the IRA is remarkable and admirable in a strange way. Despite everything you're sticking to whataboutery from a century ago as if that somehow makes everything ok

I'd be keen to see what posters thinks there was no wrong doing by the PIRA?
Pointing out a poster's hypocrisy can add context to the debate and highlights inconsistencies in their argument. This "whataboutary" has certainly tied a few people in knots.

Yeah I'd also like to know who on earth ever said the IRA (old or new) never did any wrong? I've yet to see anyone on here try to defend the likes of Omagh?

[Angelo]

What was the legitimate case for the Provos bearing arms in the 26?
And then using them to murder Gardai, Pte.Kelly, Prison Officer Stack, a Protestant Senator, Tom Oliver, bank robbing, kidnapping etc etc.
What ever happened to Army Order 8?

Didn't the Old IRA also rob banks and Post Offices, and do so on a routine basis?

Was it OK back then?

Murdered absolute scores of RIC men too.

[GetOverTheBar]

It's quite delicious to see all our resident Provos suddenly coming across as the bastard love children of Eoghan Harris and Ruth Dudley Edwards. 

Their self hatred must be off the charts.

They hate the IRA of the war of independence era because they were led and manned by Southerners

And the key point

They Won

They drove the Brits out of their areas

Something they couldn't achieve in the north

Your comments are probably the most inflammatory on this board. That is saying something.