The SDLP

[6th sam]

Why should a Protestant have any affinity to another country? To them the south is just another county on the same land mass.

I think it's you that has a problem with understanding your neighbours.

I know I'm long winded but did you actually read my post😂
First of all , I'm talking about unionists not Protestants.
Secondly I don't expect anybody to have an affinity to anything , but I don't think my lack of affinity to Britishness , or michaelg's lack of affinity to many aspects of Irishness should be an impediment to finding a solution for these islands going forward . I think mutual respect and challenging each other's opinions and cultures ( as long as it's not aggressive ,  antagonistic culture from either side) is healthier than trying to mould everybody into a neutral culture. Calling out dysfunctional behaviour of my neighbours doesn't mean I don't understand or respect them.

[michaelg]

Why should a Protestant have any affinity to another country? To them the south is just another county on the same land mass.

I think it's you that has a problem with understanding your neighbours.

I know I'm long winded but did you actually read my post😂
First of all , I'm talking about unionists not Protestants.
Secondly I don't expect anybody to have an affinity to anything , but I don't think my lack of affinity to Britishness , or michaelg's lack of affinity to many aspects of Irishness should be an impediment to finding a solution for these islands going forward . I think mutual respect and challenging each other's opinions and cultures ( as long as it's not aggressive ,  antagonistic culture from either side) is healthier than trying to mould everybody into a neutral culture. Calling out dysfunctional behaviour of my neighbours doesn't mean I don't understand or respect them.

By your argument then, some sort of accomodation could be reached within the current constitutional arrangement too.

[seafoid]

Most people just say they are going to France or Spain or England.. who uses the term foreign?

Sure "abroad" can mean the next field over. "He's abroad in the fort field"

That's from thall, in Irish
You can can be thall sa phairc or thall i Boston.

[east down gael]

An accommodation could have been reached, and in the noughties it looked like it would be. However, unionism through its political representatives have demonstrated that it's not just the union they want to maintain. It has to be the union and the north has to be a place where any hint of Irishness is fought against and described as a 'concession'.
The flag protests and the politicising of the Irish language act has shown a whole new generation of post GFA nationalists that the constitutional status quo just won't work.

[6th sam]

Why should a Protestant have any affinity to another country? To them the south is just another county on the same land mass.

I think it's you that has a problem with understanding your neighbours.

I know I'm long winded but did you actually read my post😂
First of all , I'm talking about unionists not Protestants.
Secondly I don't expect anybody to have an affinity to anything , but I don't think my lack of affinity to Britishness , or michaelg's lack of affinity to many aspects of Irishness should be an impediment to finding a solution for these islands going forward . I think mutual respect and challenging each other's opinions and cultures ( as long as it's not aggressive ,  antagonistic culture from either side) is healthier than trying to mould everybody into a neutral culture. Calling out dysfunctional behaviour of my neighbours doesn't mean I don't understand or respect them.

By your argument then, some sort of accomodation could be reached within the current constitutional arrangement too.

Absolutely,  Everything's on the table for future constitutional arrangements . But I can't see , (and you're welcome to convince me otherwise) , how the status quo is an option, as it's been a disaster. In my opinion , The mistake that we are all making is viewing this in a binary way. Ie an extension of current 26 ROI to 32 , versus the status quo. Either options involve 1 million people having to suck it up in a constitutional arrangement they don't like. If NI has shown us anything 100s of 1000s with no affinity is a recipe for disaster, particularly if they are discriminated against. Unfortunately for many traditional unionists , the GFA gave unionists an opportunity to make this place work, but the DUP blew it, by being ungenerous, unneighbourly , immature and anti-Irish. Why should unionist leaders continue to be given chances to make this work ?
The GFA stands as an international agreement of some renown, as it has been successful in reducing violence, but it's positive effects have stagnated, and we now need to be mature enough on both these islands to get our heads together in focussing on the generic  things that matter most , ie economy, health, rights etc. We can not continue to be dragged back by unreasonable positions of the DUP. They are selling you short , michaelg, and reasonable unionists like you have to sideline them once for all. The British affiliation here is respected by most people I know , and I would have no interest in any new arrangement that doesn't respect that. What astounds me however that many from a unionist position resist any all-island context , which they feel won't value their Britishness , but they're happy enough for their neighbours to continue to live in an NI arrangement that doesn't value their Irishness. It needs to dawn on all of us very quickly that a continuation of NI as we know it , is as unrealistic a solution as the binary opposite a 32 county Socialist republic. Tbf , the biggest barrier to mature progress in exploring new options is DUP unionism, as a deluded DUP think that a continuation of a failed NI is a realistic long term solution, when it clearly isn't.

[seafoid]

An accommodation could have been reached, and in the noughties it looked like it would be. However, unionism through its political representatives have demonstrated that it's not just the union they want to maintain. It has to be the union and the north has to be a place where any hint of Irishness is fought against and described as a 'concession'.
The flag protests and the politicising of the Irish language act has shown a whole new generation of post GFA nationalists that the constitutional status quo just won't work.

1. The DUP never really bought into the GFA.
2. Then their identity is based on material things like flags and not being Irish. This is a huge problem
3. Plus their biggest fear was being abandoned by London and it happened.
4. And Unionist leadership is very poor.
5. The GFA recognised the fragiling of NI and Brexit walked all over it.

[Milltown Row2]

Why should a Protestant have any affinity to another country? To them the south is just another county on the same land mass.

I think it's you that has a problem with understanding your neighbours.

I know I'm long winded but did you actually read my post😂
First of all , I'm talking about unionists not Protestants.
Secondly I don't expect anybody to have an affinity to anything , but I don't think my lack of affinity to Britishness , or michaelg's lack of affinity to many aspects of Irishness should be an impediment to finding a solution for these islands going forward . I think mutual respect and challenging each other's opinions and cultures ( as long as it's not aggressive ,  antagonistic culture from either side) is healthier than trying to mould everybody into a neutral culture. Calling out dysfunctional behaviour of my neighbours doesn't mean I don't understand or respect them.

By your argument then, some sort of accomodation could be reached within the current constitutional arrangement too.

Absolutely,  Everything's on the table for future constitutional arrangements . But I can't see , (and you're welcome to convince me otherwise) , how the status quo is an option, as it's been a disaster. In my opinion , The mistake that we are all making is viewing this in a binary way. Ie an extension of current 26 ROI to 32 , versus the status quo. Either options involve 1 million people having to suck it up in a constitutional arrangement they don't like. If NI has shown us anything 100s of 1000s with no affinity is a recipe for disaster, particularly if they are discriminated against. Unfortunately for many traditional unionists , the GFA gave unionists an opportunity to make this place work, but the DUP blew it, by being ungenerous, unneighbourly , immature and anti-Irish. Why should unionist leaders continue to be given chances to make this work ?
The GFA stands as an international agreement of some renown, as it has been successful in reducing violence, but it's positive effects have stagnated, and we now need to be mature enough on both these islands to get our heads together in focussing on the generic  things that matter most , ie economy, health, rights etc. We can not continue to be dragged back by unreasonable positions of the DUP. They are selling you short , michaelg, and reasonable unionists like you have to sideline them once for all. The British affiliation here is respected by most people I know , and I would have no interest in any new arrangement that doesn't respect that. What astounds me however that many from a unionist position resist any all-island context , which they feel won't value their Britishness , but they're happy enough for their neighbours to continue to live in an NI arrangement that doesn't value their Irishness. It needs to dawn on all of us very quickly that a continuation of NI as we know it , is as unrealistic a solution as the binary opposite a 32 county Socialist republic. Tbf , the biggest barrier to mature progress in exploring new options is DUP unionism, as a deluded DUP think that a continuation of a failed NI is a realistic long term solution, when it clearly isn't.

So if a border poll was one and it had remain to be part of the uk you'd be happy with the vote?

[Applesisapples]

A point to note here, throwing a missile at police is criminal. Breaking Covid regs is like getting a speeding ticket. Perspective please.

A point to note here, Covid is a highly contagious and potentially fatal virus. Large gatherings should not be organized to for health reasons.

Large gatherings are a breeding ground for Covid and have led to major outbreaks. Put that into perspective

I am not condoning it, but perspective is required and the sheer and utter whataboutery regarding multiple breaches on all sides is depressing.

[Applesisapples]

Serious question...
What percentage of the Unionist/Protestant population are "angry" over the Protocol?
What percentage are out rioting, attacking Police, trying to attack Nationalists etc?

Very very low percentage Ross, most unionists are reasonable . The problem for us is that they value the union and therefore many ( understandably ) back the main unionist party as the best way of maintaining the union. The real hardliners tend to be older fundamentalist types , and an easily led section of the "Protestant" working class. Most unionists favour the union for socio-economic reasons, and if there are sound socioeconomic reasons for a UI they could be persuaded. It would suit the British and Irish governments to create favourable socioeconomic for a UI. Let's be honest no Englishman with a brain wouldn't be delighted to offload Ni, to the extent that they'd be happy for GB to part finance it. A trouble free north with an economic link to England would make sense even to partitionists in ROI. For me the biggest step along the path is to sideline the DUP by giving unionists a middle ground alternative in the Alliance ( some unionists already copping on to this) . SF need to realise ( and I think they are already starting this) that if they genuinely want to become the largest party in the North they are going to have to soften further, show more remorse . Finucane epitomised this best in North belfast

A very reasonable post.  Whilst socio-economic reasons are undoutedly a major reason why unionists favour the union, it's not the be all and end all.  A sense of comfort with the status quo and fear of the unkown are the main reasons why unionsists would be reluctant to ever vote for a UI.  Coupled with the oft mentioned 'siege mentality' and a sense of giving in to SF/IRA after their 30 year terrorist campaign, it's unlikely that small 'u' unionists who vote Alliance will ever vote for a UI, as many on this board seem to think that they will.

Agree that the " comfort of the status quo " is a factor, unbelievably, as the status quo has been a disaster by most parameters: large percentage of the population having no affinity to the state, economic regression, large public sector, segregation , sectarianism, racism . The status quo is not a viable option and those unionists who are hanging onto the status quo are doing themselves no favours. If NI didn't work with a large unionist majority , it ain't go to work with a unionist minority. An all island solution with Britishness enshrined in the constitution is the most likely scenario. NI possibly might have worked if respect was shown to the minority but unfortunately for unionists that opportunity has been lost .

Again, you don't seem to get the fundamental point / essence of unionism.  The main parameter by which it has been a success, is that NI has remained as part of the United Kingdom, with the benefits that that brings.  As for your final sentence, as things stand there is likely still a significant number from the nationalist community who would vote to remain in the UK, so there is no guarantee of a UI happening in the immediate future.

You are right there is no guarantee and the biggest obstacle at the moment is from within nationalism both in the north and also in the south. There is plenty of commentary but little in the way of a strategy or plan. However for nationalists who currently would edge towards not voting yes they can be persuaded. I am in that group, the more unionism denies any equality for those of us that are Irish, the more the union flag and the Ulster Banner are waved at us and calls for a hard land border made, and language rights are denied the easier it is to persuade.

[Applesisapples]

Why should a Protestant have any affinity to another country? To them the south is just another county on the same land mass.

I think it's you that has a problem with understanding your neighbours.

I know I'm long winded but did you actually read my post😂
First of all , I'm talking about unionists not Protestants.
Secondly I don't expect anybody to have an affinity to anything , but I don't think my lack of affinity to Britishness , or michaelg's lack of affinity to many aspects of Irishness should be an impediment to finding a solution for these islands going forward . I think mutual respect and challenging each other's opinions and cultures ( as long as it's not aggressive ,  antagonistic culture from either side) is healthier than trying to mould everybody into a neutral culture. Calling out dysfunctional behaviour of my neighbours doesn't mean I don't understand or respect them.

By your argument then, some sort of accomodation could be reached within the current constitutional arrangement too.

Unionism had that opportunity for 100 years and squandered it. I grew up in a state to which I had no love, no allegiance and was very aware of my minority status, I was reminded of it everyday. What makes you think they'd change now?

[6th sam]

Why should a Protestant have any affinity to another country? To them the south is just another county on the same land mass.

I think it's you that has a problem with understanding your neighbours.

I know I'm long winded but did you actually read my post😂
First of all , I'm talking about unionists not Protestants.
Secondly I don't expect anybody to have an affinity to anything , but I don't think my lack of affinity to Britishness , or michaelg's lack of affinity to many aspects of Irishness should be an impediment to finding a solution for these islands going forward . I think mutual respect and challenging each other's opinions and cultures ( as long as it's not aggressive ,  antagonistic culture from either side) is healthier than trying to mould everybody into a neutral culture. Calling out dysfunctional behaviour of my neighbours doesn't mean I don't understand or respect them.

By your argument then, some sort of accomodation could be reached within the current constitutional arrangement too.

Absolutely,  Everything's on the table for future constitutional arrangements . But I can't see , (and you're welcome to convince me otherwise) , how the status quo is an option, as it's been a disaster. In my opinion , The mistake that we are all making is viewing this in a binary way. Ie an extension of current 26 ROI to 32 , versus the status quo. Either options involve 1 million people having to suck it up in a constitutional arrangement they don't like. If NI has shown us anything 100s of 1000s with no affinity is a recipe for disaster, particularly if they are discriminated against. Unfortunately for many traditional unionists , the GFA gave unionists an opportunity to make this place work, but the DUP blew it, by being ungenerous, unneighbourly , immature and anti-Irish. Why should unionist leaders continue to be given chances to make this work ?
The GFA stands as an international agreement of some renown, as it has been successful in reducing violence, but it's positive effects have stagnated, and we now need to be mature enough on both these islands to get our heads together in focussing on the generic  things that matter most , ie economy, health, rights etc. We can not continue to be dragged back by unreasonable positions of the DUP. They are selling you short , michaelg, and reasonable unionists like you have to sideline them once for all. The British affiliation here is respected by most people I know , and I would have no interest in any new arrangement that doesn't respect that. What astounds me however that many from a unionist position resist any all-island context , which they feel won't value their Britishness , but they're happy enough for their neighbours to continue to live in an NI arrangement that doesn't value their Irishness. It needs to dawn on all of us very quickly that a continuation of NI as we know it , is as unrealistic a solution as the binary opposite a 32 county Socialist republic. Tbf , the biggest barrier to mature progress in exploring new options is DUP unionism, as a deluded DUP think that a continuation of a failed NI is a realistic long term solution, when it clearly isn't.

So if a border poll was one and it had remain to be part of the uk you'd be happy with the vote?

I have never been happy with the formation of the 6 counties which was contrived on a sectarian headcount .
However the GFA which was agreed on a strong majority across the island, established the principle of consent within those 6 counties. This was a generous compromise by republicans on the island , as it removed the claim on the 6 counties which was democratically based on the last all-ireland election in 1919, but for the sake of peace, most republicans were prepared to swallow that.
This electorally mandated international agreement , allows for a referendum on a border poll, and All things being fair and equal, I would accept the result of that poll.
For what it's worth I'd be against a border poll on binary options , at this stage. The focus must be NI ,  UK and ROI , with international support, maturely discussing future options.  This could include the binary NI v 32 county republic options but also other creative, less nuclear options , which as the GFA showed could actually secure "cross community " and international support .

[michaelg]

Why should a Protestant have any affinity to another country? To them the south is just another county on the same land mass.

I think it's you that has a problem with understanding your neighbours.

I know I'm long winded but did you actually read my post😂
First of all , I'm talking about unionists not Protestants.
Secondly I don't expect anybody to have an affinity to anything , but I don't think my lack of affinity to Britishness , or michaelg's lack of affinity to many aspects of Irishness should be an impediment to finding a solution for these islands going forward . I think mutual respect and challenging each other's opinions and cultures ( as long as it's not aggressive ,  antagonistic culture from either side) is healthier than trying to mould everybody into a neutral culture. Calling out dysfunctional behaviour of my neighbours doesn't mean I don't understand or respect them.

By your argument then, some sort of accomodation could be reached within the current constitutional arrangement too.

Unionism had that opportunity for 100 years and squandered it. I grew up in a state to which I had no love, no allegiance and was very aware of my minority status, I was reminded of it everyday. What makes you think they'd change now?

I absolutely agree with you.  Hopefully the intorudction of an Irish Language Act, and the replacement of the lovely Arlene with someone with a bit more nous, might have some impact.  Sadly, at present there are no obvious candidates to replace her who appear to see the benefits of what a more pragmatic approach might bring

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

Why should a Protestant have any affinity to another country? To them the south is just another county on the same land mass.

I think it's you that has a problem with understanding your neighbours.

I know I'm long winded but did you actually read my post😂
First of all , I'm talking about unionists not Protestants.
Secondly I don't expect anybody to have an affinity to anything , but I don't think my lack of affinity to Britishness , or michaelg's lack of affinity to many aspects of Irishness should be an impediment to finding a solution for these islands going forward . I think mutual respect and challenging each other's opinions and cultures ( as long as it's not aggressive ,  antagonistic culture from either side) is healthier than trying to mould everybody into a neutral culture. Calling out dysfunctional behaviour of my neighbours doesn't mean I don't understand or respect them.

By your argument then, some sort of accomodation could be reached within the current constitutional arrangement too.

Unionism had that opportunity for 100 years and squandered it. I grew up in a state to which I had no love, no allegiance and was very aware of my minority status, I was reminded of it everyday. What makes you think they'd change now?

I absolutely agree with you. Hopefully the intorudction of an Irish Language Act, and the replacement of the lovely Arlene with someone with a bit more nous, might have some impact.  Sadly, at present there are no obvious candidates to replace her who appear to see the benefits of what a more pragmatic approach might bring

ILA, that old chestnut that SF took a wee interest in for  their own political gain. Paddy O Tiarnaigh and CNG still not clicked on they were used and abused?

[Rossfan]

Sam have you any suggestions for other options than Status Quo or 32 County Republic?

[Milltown Row2]

Why not just have unionists living in the North who are looked after by the British government and the Nationalist looked after by the Dall?

Perfect set up, PSNI in the unionist areas and Garda in the Nationalist areas.. Unionist getting the DLA and all the free NHS (can split the hospitals  ) and the nationalists can pay for the prescriptions and doctor and hospital appointments.

Nationalists can earn more money and pay more tax, the unionists can get less money and pay less tax, so it evens itself out, everyone is a winner here.