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Messages - michaelg

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1
What was the legitimate case for the Provos bearing arms in the 26?
And then using them to murder Gardai, Pte.Kelly, Prison Officer Stack, a Protestant Senator, Tom Oliver, bank robbing, kidnapping etc etc.
What ever happened to Army Order 8?

Didn't the Old IRA also rob banks and Post Offices, and do so on a routine basis?

Was it OK back then?

Your refusal to acknowledge any wrong doing by the IRA is remarkable and admirable in a strange way. Despite everything you're sticking to whataboutery from a century ago as if that somehow makes everything ok

I've never once denied wrongdoing by the IRA. If you can find a quote where I did, please post it up.

I have repeatedly said both the Old IRA and PIRA carried out unjustifiable actions. I have merely pointed out that the Old IRA  killed at least the same, and in all liklihood a higher, proportion of civilians than the PIRA did. How is it "whataboutery" to examine the actions of the Old IRA in a thread specifically about them?
Which PIRA actions were you happy enough about?  The 300+ RUC personnel murdered okay?

I'm not "happy" about any deaths but I regard the PIRA campaign as having been legitimate and the utterly discredited and sectarian RUC were willing protagonists in that conflict and as such were wholly legitimate targets.
Pretty sad that the cold blooded murder of felloe Irish men and women, often shot in the back etc, can be described as wholly legitimate.

The RUC was a disgraced organisation (I am sure you recall it was done away with) and so were the B Specials. Colluded with loyalists and british army to murder civilians. Its was a dirty business but in the conflict in the North they were as legitimate a target as anyone was - I assume you feel that it was legitimate for British Army to shoot IRA men? If anything the shooting of RIC men would have been much more controversial back in the day given the make up of that force had a much higher proportion of nationalists.
So it's more acceptable to shoot protestants / unionists?

2
What was the legitimate case for the Provos bearing arms in the 26?
And then using them to murder Gardai, Pte.Kelly, Prison Officer Stack, a Protestant Senator, Tom Oliver, bank robbing, kidnapping etc etc.
What ever happened to Army Order 8?

Didn't the Old IRA also rob banks and Post Offices, and do so on a routine basis?

Was it OK back then?

Your refusal to acknowledge any wrong doing by the IRA is remarkable and admirable in a strange way. Despite everything you're sticking to whataboutery from a century ago as if that somehow makes everything ok

I've never once denied wrongdoing by the IRA. If you can find a quote where I did, please post it up.

I have repeatedly said both the Old IRA and PIRA carried out unjustifiable actions. I have merely pointed out that the Old IRA  killed at least the same, and in all liklihood a higher, proportion of civilians than the PIRA did. How is it "whataboutery" to examine the actions of the Old IRA in a thread specifically about them?
Which PIRA actions were you happy enough about?  The 300+ RUC personnel murdered okay?

I'm not "happy" about any deaths but I regard the PIRA campaign as having been legitimate and the utterly discredited and sectarian RUC were willing protagonists in that conflict and as such were wholly legitimate targets.
Pretty sad that the cold blooded murder of felloe Irish men and women, often shot in the back etc, can be described as wholly legitimate.

3
What was the legitimate case for the Provos bearing arms in the 26?
And then using them to murder Gardai, Pte.Kelly, Prison Officer Stack, a Protestant Senator, Tom Oliver, bank robbing, kidnapping etc etc.
What ever happened to Army Order 8?

Didn't the Old IRA also rob banks and Post Offices, and do so on a routine basis?

Was it OK back then?

Your refusal to acknowledge any wrong doing by the IRA is remarkable and admirable in a strange way. Despite everything you're sticking to whataboutery from a century ago as if that somehow makes everything ok

I've never once denied wrongdoing by the IRA. If you can find a quote where I did, please post it up.

I have repeatedly said both the Old IRA and PIRA carried out unjustifiable actions. I have merely pointed out that the Old IRA  killed at least the same, and in all liklihood a higher, proportion of civilians than the PIRA did. How is it "whataboutery" to examine the actions of the Old IRA in a thread specifically about them?
Which PIRA actions were you happy enough about?  The 300+ RUC personnel murdered okay?

4
General discussion / Re: 💩 DUP C*ntwatch - Arlene overboard!
« on: April 30, 2021, 08:57:33 PM »
Yeah just reading some things here you would think they have gone but sadly not.

I would agree with most of what you say. The likes of Ballymena area or Wilson country(east antrim?) they probably just aren't going to lose seats. East Belfast and North Belfast are big variables for them. If they lost all of Belfast altogether would be a big blow. Lagan Valley I'm not familiar enough with though thought they were winning it easy enough. I must have a look at the votes in the last elections MLA wise and see what the score was there.

If the UUP had anything about them the DUP would be in much bigger bother however unfortunately the UUP don't have much about them at all these days.
I wonder if wee Robin Swann will have another dart at leading the UUP.  Doug Beattie seems a better bet than your boy Aiken too.

5
General discussion / Re: 💩 DUP C*ntwatch - Arlene overboard!
« on: April 28, 2021, 10:56:10 PM »
The big problem for unionists and loyalists is that they still think they can keep the nationalists down. Unionists have never accepted the fact that this is the 1950s anymore.

By replacing arlene they think the next leader can stand up to SF and bring back the good old days. That simply isn't going to happen. Even if Jim from the TUV was elected he would soon learn that it is easy spouting this right wing crap from the sidelines but in reality it doesn't fly anymore when you are actually in government postion.

Be honest. That simply isnít true of at least 80% of unionists. The vast, vast majority of unionists have no interest in keeping nationalists down. That includes many who, over the past 15 years have voted DUP. I donít think they will vote DUP going forward but they will remain unionist, willing participants in power sharing and wonít go as Arlene said and run away if there is a United ireland

Struggling to see how it's not true. DUP politicians are openly stating in the media about challenging SF, avoiding cooperation with the Irish government, their distain for gays and abortion etc etc. Anyone who votes for the DUP are literally backing the DUP politicians and their view point . Thought that was clearly obvious.
Not necessarily given that people in NI basically vote in relation to the constitutional question.  Do you think all SF voters, particularly those middle class voters, support SF's economic policies relating to a 32 county socialist Republic, assuming that's still their aspiration?

You vote for a party based on their main objectives. For SF it seems to be a UI. For DUP it was keeping unionists at the head of the table and remaining British, well depending on which laws they wanted NI to follow. When it came to alcohol licensing laws, abortion, gay rights etc the dup suddenly didn't mt want to be British.
Most unionists vote to maintain the union, not to 'keep unionists at the head of the table'.  I agree with you that it's ridiculous that the DUP want to cherry pick those Bristish laws that they want to apply in NI.  As stated perviously, however, given the nature of politics in NI, this doesn't mean that everyone who votes for the DUP agrees with those policies.

6
General discussion / Re: 💩 DUP C*ntwatch - Arlene overboard!
« on: April 28, 2021, 09:36:29 PM »
The big problem for unionists and loyalists is that they still think they can keep the nationalists down. Unionists have never accepted the fact that this is the 1950s anymore.

By replacing arlene they think the next leader can stand up to SF and bring back the good old days. That simply isn't going to happen. Even if Jim from the TUV was elected he would soon learn that it is easy spouting this right wing crap from the sidelines but in reality it doesn't fly anymore when you are actually in government postion.

Be honest. That simply isnít true of at least 80% of unionists. The vast, vast majority of unionists have no interest in keeping nationalists down. That includes many who, over the past 15 years have voted DUP. I donít think they will vote DUP going forward but they will remain unionist, willing participants in power sharing and wonít go as Arlene said and run away if there is a United ireland

Struggling to see how it's not true. DUP politicians are openly stating in the media about challenging SF, avoiding cooperation with the Irish government, their distain for gays and abortion etc etc. Anyone who votes for the DUP are literally backing the DUP politicians and their view point . Thought that was clearly obvious.
Not necessarily given that people in NI basically vote in relation to the constitutional question.  Do you think all SF voters, particularly those middle class voters, support SF's economic policies relating to a 32 county socialist Republic, assuming that's still their aspiration?

7
General discussion / Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
« on: April 26, 2021, 04:54:30 PM »
Thought I had strayed to the Newsletter site.....

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/sinn-fein-td-to-commemorate-evil-and-sectarian-killer-who-tried-to-murder-arlene-fosters-father-in-terrorist-gun-attack-40356347.html

Or Sinn Fein Commerate Irishman executed in cold blood by British Army, if you actually read the shite that is in that article instead of just reading the Indo headline.
Surely the old 'live by the sword, die by the sword' adage would apply when your are shot dead on "active service"?

8
General discussion / Re: The Offical Glasgow Celtic thread
« on: April 26, 2021, 04:49:51 PM »
Is there any story to explain (top 10 European club) Celtic fc's share price? All of a sudden it shot up by about 15% today.
It was mentioned that them and the gers might be brought into a british super league. Or just added to the current PL. Which wont happen.

Itíll happen eventually. I canít imagine Celtic and Rangers being in the SPL in 50 years time.
Rangers and Celtic fans are used to winning at least 1 trophy per season.  When things go on the slide, their interest tends to tail off a bit (This thread being an example of that).  I'm not sure how both sest of fans would get on with perhaps winning a trophy every 5 to 10 years rather than winning everything in sight.

Okay. Rangers have won 1 major Scottish competition in the past ten years but apart from that.......
And do you think they will only 1 in the next 10 years?

9
General discussion / Re: The Offical Glasgow Celtic thread
« on: April 26, 2021, 07:45:50 AM »
Is there any story to explain (top 10 European club) Celtic fc's share price? All of a sudden it shot up by about 15% today.
It was mentioned that them and the gers might be brought into a british super league. Or just added to the current PL. Which wont happen.

Itíll happen eventually. I canít imagine Celtic and Rangers being in the SPL in 50 years time.
Rangers and Celtic fans are used to winning at least 1 trophy per season.  When things go on the slide, their interest tends to tail off a bit (This thread being an example of that).  I'm not sure how both sest of fans would get on with perhaps winning a trophy every 5 to 10 years rather than winning everything in sight.

10
General discussion / Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
« on: April 25, 2021, 01:34:09 AM »
Granted, I'm no expert on SF's politics in Northern Ireland but I was under the impression that the Shinners were demanding a UI referendum right now. Listening to Michelle last night,it seems they are looking for negotiations to begin which is a different matter. I mean iif there is going to be a UI at sometime in the future, discussions have to begin sometime and if that all SF are looking for, I am alll for it.

Agree . I think an all-island solution would leave the island in a much better place. We already punch above our weight in many things and as a people are liked and respected worldwide. Take the conflict out of it and we can realise our potential . The South has done well in many aspects particularly in recent years but the ďnorthern questionĒ continues to hold us all back . MON has shown remarkable pragmatism and resilience in maintaining in government with the DUP . The GFA of its time was a success because DUP had to buy in to arrangements they didnít like (albeit kicking and screaming ).
Similarly with all-island constitutional change. Northern republicans had to swallow  living under British jurisdiction because their irishness was supposed to be equally respected . Why should unionists who were happy for republicans to do that post GFA , not be by prepared to accept the same in new arrangements . Look at the French  in Canada,  or Belgian arrangements,  as well as GFA for precedent.

There in is the problem ... Unionists will not be subjective, they will not partake in sensible reasoning discussions, they will gladly walk off a cliff edge rather than prosper in a UI ... sad, but true.  Entering into discussions ref. a UI means theyíve already lost the argument, for them, it is the union with the UK that matters, and nothing else.  Still, that should not prevent the discussion taking place, whether unionists want to be part of those discussions or not.
How can you guarantee that 'they' will prosper in a UI?

11
General discussion / Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
« on: April 25, 2021, 01:30:57 AM »
Granted, I'm no expert on SF's politics in Northern Ireland but I was under the impression that the Shinners were demanding a UI referendum right now. Listening to Michelle last night,it seems they are looking for negotiations to begin which is a different matter. I mean iif there is going to be a UI at sometime in the future, discussions have to begin sometime and if that all SF are looking for, I am alll for it.

Agree . I think an all-island solution would leave the island in a much better place. We already punch above our weight in many things and as a people are liked and respected worldwide. Take the conflict out of it and we can realise our potential . The South has done well in many aspects particularly in recent years but the ďnorthern questionĒ continues to hold us all back . MON has shown remarkable pragmatism and resilience in maintaining in government with the DUP . The GFA of its time was a success because DUP had to buy in to arrangements they didnít like (albeit kicking and screaming ).
Similarly with all-island constitutional change. Northern republicans had to swallow  living under British jurisdiction because their irishness was supposed to be equally respected . Why should unionists who were happy for republicans to do that post GFA , not be by prepared to accept the same in new arrangements . Look at the French  in Canada,  or Belgian arrangements,  as well as GFA for precedent.
You been on the pop, big lad?

12
The Ukranian centre half's attempted take out of an NI player has to be seen; made SSN this morn, even better on the big screen

Unbelievable.  The fact that she was certainly getting to the ball first and changed direction to take her out beggars belief.

And made a terrible attempt at taking her out too. Had the ball, choose to ignore it and run off to take out an opponent and then only half do it. Was comical.
Tbf, she probably didn't realise that the NI girl in pursuit lacked a bit of pace and was busted at that point.  That's not meant to take away from her performance as was WOM I thought.

13
https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2021/0413/1209758-northern-ireland-women-secure-first-ever-finals-place/
Qualified for the Women's Euro 2022 finals with a 4-1 aggregate play off win against Ukraine, fair play to them.
Unbelievable effort.

14
General discussion / Re: The SDLP
« on: April 12, 2021, 10:41:42 AM »
Why should a Protestant have any affinity to another country? To them the south is just another county on the same land mass.

I think itís you that has a problem with understanding your neighbours.

I know Iím long winded but did you actually read my post😂
First of all , Iím talking about unionists not Protestants.
Secondly I donít expect anybody to have an affinity to anything , but I donít think my lack of affinity to Britishness , or michaelgís lack of affinity to many aspects of Irishness should be an impediment to finding a solution for these islands going forward . I think mutual respect and challenging each otherís opinions and cultures ( as long as itís not aggressive ,  antagonistic culture from either side) is healthier than trying to mould everybody into a neutral culture. Calling out dysfunctional behaviour of my neighbours doesnít mean I donít understand or respect them.
By your argument then, some sort of accomodation could be reached within the current constitutional arrangement too.
Unionism had that opportunity for 100 years and squandered it. I grew up in a state to which I had no love, no allegiance and was very aware of my minority status, I was reminded of it everyday. What makes you think they'd change now?
I absolutely agree with you.  Hopefully the intorudction of an Irish Language Act, and the replacement of the lovely Arlene with someone with a bit more nous, might have some impact.  Sadly, at present there are no obvious candidates to replace her who appear to see the benefits of what a more pragmatic approach might bring

15
General discussion / Re: The SDLP
« on: April 12, 2021, 07:52:37 AM »
Why should a Protestant have any affinity to another country? To them the south is just another county on the same land mass.

I think itís you that has a problem with understanding your neighbours.

I know Iím long winded but did you actually read my post😂
First of all , Iím talking about unionists not Protestants.
Secondly I donít expect anybody to have an affinity to anything , but I donít think my lack of affinity to Britishness , or michaelgís lack of affinity to many aspects of Irishness should be an impediment to finding a solution for these islands going forward . I think mutual respect and challenging each otherís opinions and cultures ( as long as itís not aggressive ,  antagonistic culture from either side) is healthier than trying to mould everybody into a neutral culture. Calling out dysfunctional behaviour of my neighbours doesnít mean I donít understand or respect them.
By your argument then, some sort of accomodation could be reached within the current constitutional arrangement too.

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