McCarthy admits he does not have backing of Cork hurlers

[heffo]

ZULU - I wouldn't describe it as lavish praise but they are hardworking and dedicated supporters of Cork hurling over a long period of time and I'm surprised that you haven't come across them in your time down there.

I can't that I know anything about any of them but I was involved in the football side of things more than the hurling, can you tell me what they've done, teams they've been involved in, positions they've held? Maybe lavish praise is a bit much but you implied they have done a lot for Cork hurling but I don't know them, could you fill me in?

I know enough to know that I've described them accurately. You obviously were well involved in the football side of things not to know anything about them.  

So can you please tell me something about them? I'm not sure what you mean by "You obviously were well involved in the football side of things not to know anything about them." Cork is a big county there would be quite a few Cork GAA men that I would have little knowledge about. Can you fill me in on these 3 lads?

Cashman played for a good while from mid 80's and picked up a couple of AI's IIRC..

[Tatler Jack]

Reillers it seems to me that anything the CB propose or people they appoint are useless toadies or lackeys in your eyes while anyone the players propose is laden down with talent. First it seems to me pragmatic to appoint the U21 management on an interim basis while the thorny question of how a manager is appointed and who that person will be is sorted.  Considine was a person mentioned by the players at one stage during the rumpus and many of the younger players would have played under him so he should be generally acceptable. As regards the selectors I know Denis Ring has been involved with many Cork under age and junior teams and would be highly thought of while the hurling credentials of Jim Cashman and Tony O'Sullivan are hardly in question. I do not know Paddy Daly or anything about him.  So it's no big deal really.  I would think that appointing O'Grady would have been divisive given the role he played during the strike in undermining Gerald. Whether or not he comes into the frame for the full time job is another matter – if he comes first in the interview process then fair enough but I wonder will he want to be interviewed!!

On a broader note there are no standout candidates for this job and I assume Cork will not want an outside candidate. Cork's lack of success at under age and club level in recent years means that there is no stand out candidate – even the much touted Ger Cunningham has had little enough success with the Barrs.

[orangeman]

Zulu - I could so easily just dismiss you by saying that if you don't know the history of the current under 21 team then you would patently be clueless given that you've lived in Cork for a good while. If I were like you and Reillers I'd say that you knew nothing, were posting rubbish etc etc.


But I'm not going to do that but am merely pointing out to you that how I know these men isn't relevant - I've made claims that the selectors were dedicated, hard working Cork gaels.

It's terrible had anybody who puts themselves forward to try and help the current shambles that is Cork GAA is condemned as disasters and yes men before they have even met the players. If that's how good men are going to be treated whether in Cork or elsewhere, volunteers will be thin on the ground.

But isn't that the aim ??

[Reillers]

Reillers - by not agreeing that the selectors aren't as I've described them merely goes to demonstrate that you are happy to leave my claim in the air and an implication that they are not hardworking and dedicated Cork gaels.

You've insulted all the previous lads so insulting another 3/4 good Cork men won't hurt will it ??

I never said he wasn't OM. You said you knew them well enough so I posed the question to you, something which you have seemed to avoided and I presume, you being you, wont answer it.

[INDIANA]

Really OM read the whole post, you constantly pick bits and pieces, a word or two from one line, another two or three words from another line and then you try to form a conclusion from that.
I said Considine had made a hash of the U21s and his record there is poor, but I also said that he's a reasonable reputation as a coach.
The only reason we know that he wasn't the first choice was because the CB said it.
And you really have to ask after all this time why he was appointed by the CB.

You've got Considine, a good enough manager, or you've got Donal O Grady, an oustantding manager, but wasn't appointed purely because he came out in support of the palyers in the past few months, because of the things he said about the CB..the truth basically.

So, it's made clear that Considine wasn't picked because of his abilities, but because he wasn't O Grady. And that's not fair on the man.

Despite him being the best man for the job. There we have the CB putting what they want, their feelings, ahead of what's best for the county. He is the best option and poor Considine, well it's clear he was picked because he was the alternative. I have no problem with him being picked, but for the right reasons. This wasn't for the right reasons and that's not fair on Considine at all.

Thats life Reillers if I write a newspaer column criticising my boss he's not going to employ me. It doesn't matter the rights and wrongs of it. They were never going to appoint him its human nature.

Reillers Donal is too close -you know that. As I said before if you criticise people in power they marginalise you. If they aren't in power then its a different story. But in my view Donal is a fine coach but after all the division is not the right man this time round. As I said before plenty of top class coaches outside Cork. But it seems to me the players wil veto anyone they regard as sub-standard. And I 'm very disappointed that I've yet to hear a statement from the players distancing themselves from what happened this week.
John Considine position is already untenable- I would expect him after what happenned to Gerald to turn down the role. The players don't rate him so it is pointless him taking the job.

[Reillers]

Reillers it seems to me that anything the CB propose or people they appoint are useless toadies or lackeys in your eyes while anyone the players propose is laden down with talent. First it seems to me pragmatic to appoint the U21 management on an interim basis while the thorny question of how a manager is appointed and who that person will be is sorted.  Considine was a person mentioned by the players at one stage during the rumpus and many of the younger players would have played under him so he should be generally acceptable. As regards the selectors I know Denis Ring has been involved with many Cork under age and junior teams and would be highly thought of while the hurling credentials of Jim Cashman and Tony O'Sullivan are hardly in question. I do not know Paddy Daly or anything about him.  So it's no big deal really.  I would think that appointing O'Grady would have been divisive given the role he played during the strike in undermining Gerald. Whether or not he comes into the frame for the full time job is another matter – if he comes first in the interview process then fair enough but I wonder will he want to be interviewed!!

On a broader note there are no standout candidates for this job and I assume Cork will not want an outside candidate. Cork's lack of success at under age and club level in recent years means that there is no stand out candidate – even the much touted Ger Cunningham has had little enough success with the Barrs.

I'm sorry but comparing O Grady to Considine is a no brainer.

It's not about the fact that the CB didn't appoint Considine for his skill as a manager over O Grady, but because he wasn't O Grady.
I have no problem with them appointing someone for the right reasons, but the way they've done this, even though it is only for 2 or 3 games, the Cb didn't vote for O Grady because he came out backing the players and what he said in the media about the CB. O Grady is a much better manager then most. If the CB were doing what was best for hurling they would have appointed the best man available, the best man available was O Grady, but he wasn't appointed, purely because of personal vendettas with the board.
I have no problem with Considine being appointed, it's just the way he was appointed that annoys me. Not because of his skill, but because he wasn't O Grady and was the only other opponent.

The lack of underrage success hadn't had much to do with managers, Considines a good rep as a manager, but he wasn't succesfull with the U21s when he should have been really because the team was there, and is even better this year imo. But it's because of the non existant youth structures in the county.

[INDIANA]

Reilers I've seen pretty much every Cork minor and u21 team for the last 4 years. You're miles behind the likes of Tipp- this conveyor belt of talent doesn't exist and I'm categoric about that. I'd say Considine did as well as he could with limited material.
People won;t employ people who criticise them- regardless of the right thing to do. Thats life unfortunately.

[Reillers]

Really OM read the whole post, you constantly pick bits and pieces, a word or two from one line, another two or three words from another line and then you try to form a conclusion from that.
I said Considine had made a hash of the U21s and his record there is poor, but I also said that he's a reasonable reputation as a coach.
The only reason we know that he wasn't the first choice was because the CB said it.
And you really have to ask after all this time why he was appointed by the CB.

You've got Considine, a good enough manager, or you've got Donal O Grady, an oustantding manager, but wasn't appointed purely because he came out in support of the palyers in the past few months, because of the things he said about the CB..the truth basically.

So, it's made clear that Considine wasn't picked because of his abilities, but because he wasn't O Grady. And that's not fair on the man.

Despite him being the best man for the job. There we have the CB putting what they want, their feelings, ahead of what's best for the county. He is the best option and poor Considine, well it's clear he was picked because he was the alternative. I have no problem with him being picked, but for the right reasons. This wasn't for the right reasons and that's not fair on Considine at all.

Thats life Reillers if I write a newspaer column criticising my boss he's not going to employ me. It doesn't matter the rights and wrongs of it. They were never going to appoint him its human nature.

Reillers Donal is too close -you know that. As I said before if you criticise people in power they marginalise you. If they aren't in power then its a different story. But in my view Donal is a fine coach but after all the division is not the right man this time round. As I said before plenty of top class coaches outside Cork. But it seems to me the players wil veto anyone they regard as sub-standard. And I 'm very disappointed that I've yet to hear a statement from the players distancing themselves from what happened this week.
John Considine position is already untenable- I would expect him after what happenned to Gerald to turn down the role. The players don't rate him so it is pointless him taking the job.

What does too close mean exactly?
What's wrong with being close to the team if you're going to be the manager. He would have fitted in unseamlessly, the players have worked with him, they trust and know him, he in large knows most of them. They have immense respect for him.
So what's too close mean? Too close for the Cbs liking.

The players have never vetod a manager before, they have no problem with Considine, everyone who has worked with the players with the exception of Gerald has had nothing but good things and high praises to say about the players (and massive criticism for the CB at that) they took the stand they did this time because of the way in which he was reappointed. If the CB were smart they would have went about a process, even if their intention was always to appoint Gerald again, if they had gone about the process and reappointed Gerald at the end the players would have just played on, some might even have walked away freely.

His job is untainable because the CB made it so, they are the ones who appointed him only because he wasn't O Grady, and then it was them who came out and
said that the players would have prefered O Grady.
The players don't rate him..that's lies. The players actually said that they have no problem working with him before.
So stop making things up to suit your arguement.

[orangeman]

O'Grady wants the job - the delegated voted last night by 77-39 not to vote for him - they chose Considine instead -


Can you not just accept that ?

Why do you have to resort to undermining and insulting these men long before they've even met the players ? I don't know what Gardiner said to Gerry O'Sullivan but it does seem that he intimated on behalf of the 2008 panel that their preferred man was O'Grady. Considine is a beaten docket before he starts - as for the under 21 seelctors - disasters There must be some great men in Cork if these lads are disasters and yes men.


The players have never vetod a manager before   

[Tatler Jack]

I'm sorry but comparing O Grady to Considine is a no brainer.

I was not comparing them

T

he lack of underrage success hadn't had much to do with managers,

Never said it had.

but he wasn't succesfull with the U21s when he should have been really because the team was there, and is even better this year imo. But it's because of the non existant youth structures in the county

A bit puzzled about your point here - seems contradictory to me i.e. there is talent at U21 level but there is not because of poor youth structures. !!

[Tatler Jack]

Reilers I've seen pretty much every Cork minor and u21 team for the last 4 years. You're miles behind the likes of Tipp- this conveyor belt of talent doesn't exist and I'm categoric about that.

Would tend to agree Indiana - I also have seen all COrk minor and U21 teams over the past 5 years and most of the Tipp teams in the same era. Tipp have far more players coming through with senior potential both in terms of skill, strength and the old fashioned ability to give and take it.

[Reillers]

Reilers I've seen pretty much every Cork minor and u21 team for the last 4 years. You're miles behind the likes of Tipp- this conveyor belt of talent doesn't exist and I'm categoric about that. I'd say Considine did as well as he could with limited material.
People won;t employ people who criticise them- regardless of the right thing to do. Thats life unfortunately.

True. The sad thing is the talents there. That's what's overwhelmingly depressing. And anyone who does make it to senior level at this stage will have done so inspite of everything else because there is absolute no structure at all for the youth structures.
The U21 team were one of the favourites to win the competition last season but they lost to an inferrior team in Clare in one of the most disgraceful preformances I've seen from a Cork team in a long time, they simply didn't try. It was a day after a few had played with the seniors against Galway, but no one, with the exception of one or two, couldn't remember now if I tried who, made an effort. It was sinfull.
I'm not saying that's his fault at all, it's just what happened. This year the U21 team is even better then last years but because of the pathetic

Against the minors the same thing happened. They lost to a Galway side who they should have beaten but they just stopped playing. They should have beaten the Galway team who were robbed in the final imo.

There is talent at U21 and Minor level but you can only get so far with skill and talent, you need support and structures at every level, especially their age, and we don't have it.

Ya I except that, but what was best for the IC team was put aside because of the CB's personal feelings again.

[INDIANA]

Really OM read the whole post, you constantly pick bits and pieces, a word or two from one line, another two or three words from another line and then you try to form a conclusion from that.
I said Considine had made a hash of the U21s and his record there is poor, but I also said that he's a reasonable reputation as a coach.
The only reason we know that he wasn't the first choice was because the CB said it.
And you really have to ask after all this time why he was appointed by the CB.

You've got Considine, a good enough manager, or you've got Donal O Grady, an oustantding manager, but wasn't appointed purely because he came out in support of the palyers in the past few months, because of the things he said about the CB..the truth basically.

So, it's made clear that Considine wasn't picked because of his abilities, but because he wasn't O Grady. And that's not fair on the man.

Despite him being the best man for the job. There we have the CB putting what they want, their feelings, ahead of what's best for the county. He is the best option and poor Considine, well it's clear he was picked because he was the alternative. I have no problem with him being picked, but for the right reasons. This wasn't for the right reasons and that's not fair on Considine at all.

Thats life Reillers if I write a newspaer column criticising my boss he's not going to employ me. It doesn't matter the rights and wrongs of it. They were never going to appoint him its human nature.

Reillers Donal is too close -you know that. As I said before if you criticise people in power they marginalise you. If they aren't in power then its a different story. But in my view Donal is a fine coach but after all the division is not the right man this time round. As I said before plenty of top class coaches outside Cork. But it seems to me the players wil veto anyone they regard as sub-standard. And I 'm very disappointed that I've yet to hear a statement from the players distancing themselves from what happened this week.
John Considine position is already untenable- I would expect him after what happenned to Gerald to turn down the role. The players don't rate him so it is pointless him taking the job.

What does too close mean exactly?
What's wrong with being close to the team if you're going to be the manager. He would have fitted in unseamlessly, the players have worked with him, they trust and know him, he in large knows most of them. They have immense respect for him.
So what's too close mean? Too close for the Cbs liking.

The players have never vetod a manager before, they have no problem with Considine, everyone who has worked with the players with the exception of Gerald has had nothing but good things and high praises to say about the players (and massive criticism for the CB at that) they took the stand they did this time because of the way in which he was reappointed. If the CB were smart they would have went about a process, even if their intention was always to appoint Gerald again, if they had gone about the process and reappointed Gerald at the end the players would have just played on, some might even have walked away freely.

His job is untainable because the CB made it so, they are the ones who appointed him only because he wasn't O Grady, and then it was them who came out and
said that the players would have prefered O Grady.
The players don't rate him..that's lies. The players actually said that they have no problem working with him before.
So stop making things up to suit your arguement.

His job is untenable Reillers because the players have let be known they'd prefer someone else. Its a bit like your employer saying we'll employ you a few weeks but we really think there is someone much better than you who can do the job permanently. Its pointless. The players should have stayed away from it. As I said before why won't you go outside the county

[Reillers]

So they are allowed no input at all.
They weren't allowed to say who they, the people who'd be working with him, would prefer. Everyone thought O Grady would be appointed anyway.

I'd be more insulted about what the CB did then what the players said. It's obvious for anyone with a brain who the players would prefer and Considine would know that.

I don't remember anyone saying that we wouldn't go outside the county, unless I'm wrong.

[Tatler Jack]

And anyone who does make it to senior level at this stage will have done so inspite of everything else because there is absolute no structure at all for the youth structures.

Reillers I am not having a go at you but what do you mean by this and what do you propose. And what are the reasons for it. Are you saying there are not enough coaches, games, or what. Lazily blaming the CB is a cop out - are there proposals from the clubs that the CB have blocked. I don't think so. I agree Cork are falling behind and I feel there are many reasons including struggling clubs because too few get involved, over concentration on the 2 senior teams that impacts on club games and under age , plus  competition from other sports.

I don't have all the answers but a start might be to analyse the problem properly and for some Cork people to be a little less arrogant.