McCarthy admits he does not have backing of Cork hurlers

[The GAA]

Good man Silgeach keep reading that dictionary of yours if it gives you comfort,

And still not one of the pro-players can make a half decent response to this bare faced lie by Donal Og.

but this is a multi layered long running dispute and the CCB have clearly abused their power.

If it was a single layered dispute involving a dog and a couple of chickens it would make absolutely no difference to the meaning of the word Veto.

Donal Og has made it important enough of an issue to deny it is a veto, I am showing that it absolutely clearly is a veto. So unless you have something at least half intelligible to say on the subject stop posting rubbish about those who have.

The players want a veto on McCarthy, FACT.
Do they always want this power ? Do they always want a veto on the incoming manager ? That is the important question that Donal Og does NOT want asked.

In any genuine process, the people involved take into consideration the others view, and any reasonable person wouldn't impose upon the players the one man they said they couldn't work with.

In any process, genuine or not, the people involved can take into consideration the others view or they can not and it still makes no difference to the meaning of what the players are asking for which is a veto against Gerald McCarthy.

so how any GAA man can support them is beyond me.

For many reason. Lets name two.

- The players went for blackmail first and foremost. They didn't even attempt to use the democratic process of the clubs.
- The players are not trying to use the democratic process AFTER the vote was called by the County Board. Now I have no problem with them doing this but I can't help but wonder if they waited until after the first vote on purpose.

And lastly. I firmly believe in the democratic process of the GAA, I also firmly believe that players should not be allowed to have any input into their own management besides having opinions. The managers word is law.

Well i certainly said many many pages ago (you're allowed to read as well as post on these threads) that i had no problem calling it a veto on Gerald McCarthy's management. They have every right not to play for a manager but if the overwhelming majority didn't want them back then there'd be no dispute or talk about them not bothering playing.

I'm astonished that you feel it right to defend an elected (and paid) official's right to ignore good practice, the common good and all sense to make a destructive decision - just because he can.

Taking up a right to not play is not blackmail no matter how much you'd like it to be. when you are in a fight you have tools at your disposal. the players have one trump card and its their participation. you believe all collective action in disputes are blackmail?

I believe in the democratic process too. what i don't believe in is an autonomous county executive ignoring the good of the county to pursue personal vendettas. i don't believe in a democratic process which does not allow all of its clubs equal say - if any say at all. i don't believe in a democratic process which ensures that manipulated club reps must mandate executive whims without leave to consult their memberS

[The GAA]

It seems clear that the players want to wrest control of the running of the county team away from the county board and basically put themselves in charge for the forseeable future. Pick their own managers, selectors, etc. If successful you could see a case in a couple of years when some of the older players have retired of them playing pass the parcel with the management of the senior hurling team. Treating it as their own personal fiefdom much like Frank Murphy has with Cork GAA. Maybe they have more in common with Frank than they'd like to admit.

In the absence of any genuine concern for the football or hurling teams within the county executive, someone has to do something.

[Zulu]

And still not one of the pro-players can make a half decent response to this bare faced lie by Donal Og.

It has been made, you don't accept it, fair enough but many would disagree with you.

If it was a single layered dispute involving a dog and a couple of chickens it would make absolutely no difference to the meaning of the word Veto.

Donal Og has made it important enough of an issue to deny it is a veto, I am showing that it absolutely clearly is a veto. So unless you have something at least half intelligible to say on the subject stop posting rubbish about those who have.

The players want a veto on McCarthy, FACT.
Do they always want this power ? Do they always want a veto on the incoming manager ? That is the important question that Donal Og does NOT want asked.

Since you seem to base all your arguments on what the dictionary definition is you maight get it out and look up 'intelligent', all you've done is rabbit on about a veto and its dictionary definition since you started posting on this topic a short time ago. Others like myself have been posting on this for a while now and have argued the various points with a go degree of decency, respect and dare I say it, intelligence most of the way through. I'll leave it up to others to decide if they agree with me or you on that. Oh and posting fact as FACT doesn't make it so, still just your opinion.

For many reason. Lets name two.

- The players went for blackmail first and foremost. They didn't even attempt to use the democratic process of the clubs.
- The players are not trying to use the democratic process AFTER the vote was called by the County Board. Now I have no problem with them doing this but I can't help but wonder if they waited until after the first vote on purpose.

And lastly. I firmly believe in the democratic process of the GAA, I also firmly believe that players should not be allowed to have any input into their own management besides having opinions. The managers word is law.

This has been an on going dispute for over 6 years so they didn't go for strike as a first option and it isn't blackmail, they said they couldn't play for a particular man and he was reappointed so they didn't, though i haven't checked out the definition of blackmail so you might disagree.

The clubs wouldn't have known enough about what was going on or cared enough if teh players were playing, so the only realistic way of bringing everything out was to refuse to play, this raised the stakes and concentrated minds.

I think players should be consulted but i'm not pushed either way as long as those charged with the responsibility do so with the right motives.

[sligeach]

Well i certainly said many many pages ago (you're allowed to read as well as post on these threads) that i had no problem calling it a veto on Gerald McCarthy's management.

Indeed you did and I remember that. But I didn't say no one made an adequate response, I said no one had explained this in relation to Donal Og's bare faced lie. Perhaps you should try that 'reading' thing too ?

I'm astonished that you feel it right to defend an elected (and paid) official's right to ignore good practice, the common good and all sense to make a destructive decision - just because he can.

And I'm surprised you feel its right to defend a bunch of players who didn't even bother trying to go about this through the proper channels. No attempt whatsoever was made to bring this to the clubs until AFTER the vote.

Your confusing my argument with your own. I am not arguing that the County Board are right, because I think it was a terrible choice to put Ger back, I am arguing that the players are wrong and they can not win this, not this way. Because if they do they are setting a precedent that will change the GAA forever and not for better.

Taking up a right to not play is not blackmail no matter how much you'd like it to be. when you are in a fight you have tools at your disposal. the players have one trump card and its their participation. you believe all collective action in disputes are blackmail?

After signing an agreement not to strike the players decided to strike, and you can call it whatever you like, its a strike. So both themselves under Donal Og's leadership anyways and the County Board have proven they are both a bunch of lying dishonest cheats.

I believe in the democratic process too. what i don't believe in is an autonomous county executive ignoring the good of the county to pursue personal vendettas.

You support the democratic process but have no problem with the players actions ? The fact they tried to force the CCB first, then tries democracy after that failed ? You are fine with that ?

Howabout the players gaining veto powers on management, your ok with that ?

[longrunsthefox]

After signing an agreement not to strike the players decided to strike, and you can call it whatever you like, its a strike.

Absolutly-big time... they have shown their word is not their bond.

[bottlethrower7]

It seems clear that the players want to wrest control of the running of the county team away from the county board and basically put themselves in charge for the forseeable future. Pick their own managers, selectors, etc. If successful you could see a case in a couple of years when some of the older players have retired of them playing pass the parcel with the management of the senior hurling team. Treating it as their own personal fiefdom much like Frank Murphy has with Cork GAA. Maybe they have more in common with Frank than they'd like to admit.

they've already picked their own manager. They have him waiting in the wings for when they get their way.

[sligeach]

Since you seem to base all your arguments on what the dictionary definition is

Confusing me with someone else. I am not arguing anything in relation to the word, I'm simply pointing out its meaning and Donal Og lying on national media.

The players wanted powers of veto against Gerald and probably want powers of veto at least in the future against any possible managerial candidates.

Others like myself have been posting on this for a while now and have argued the various points with a go degree of decency, respect and dare I say it, intelligence most of the way through.

And thats my issue with it. There are NO points in relation to this argument. Your arguing about the rights and wrongs of the players rejecting Gerald, I'm arguing about what the players have asked for, and what they have asked for is a veto.

Asking the county board to NOT put Gerald into the position is a veto. Whether its right or wrong makes no difference.

This has been an on going dispute for over 6 years so they didn't go for strike as a first option and it isn't blackmail, they said they couldn't play for a particular man and he was reappointed so they didn't, though i haven't checked out the definition of blackmail so you might disagree.

If thats the case and they can't play for the manager then they should just walk away.

If they were real GAA men they would have used the processes of the GAA to change the situation. If the CCB are that bad then use the clubs to oust them democratically.

Throwing the hurl against the wall and crying all over the national media for 5 months is not the way decent honest men act.

The clubs wouldn't have known enough about what was going on or cared enough if teh players were playing, so the only realistic way of bringing everything out was to refuse to play, this raised the stakes and concentrated minds.

So thats your excuse for the way the players have been acting ? Because the Cork clubs and Cork GAA people cared so little for Cork hurling that the players had to whinge about it for 5 months on every media outlet they could get their mouths near before even approaching the clubs to call meetings on the issue ?

[Zulu]

After signing an agreement not to strike the players decided to strike, and you can call it whatever you like, its a strike.

Absolutly-big time... they have shown their word is not their bond.

So amateur players are not allowed to refuse to play for a certain manager? I know of a few club lads who refused to play for certain managers in my time and they are perfectly justified in doing so if they want. Whatever about not playing for a certain manager, i wouldn't play for any club or county that is run by men clearly making decisions to antagonize me and with no regard for the consequences of their actions to my teams onfield performance.

[Zulu]

Confusing me with someone else. I am not arguing anything in relation to the word, I'm simply pointing out its meaning and Donal Og lying on national media.

I'm not confusing you with anyone else, you've gone on about this veto ad nausea, GAA has accepted it's a veto yet you still go on about it, I disagree it's a veto because of the circumstances but even if it is a veto on Gerald, what is your point. I think it is entirely acceptable for players to have, lets call it a veto for the sake of argument, over their previous manager because they know if he is working out or not.

Asking the county board to NOT put Gerald into the position is a veto. Whether its right or wrong makes no difference.

Of course the rights and wrongs make a difference, they don't want a man who they have a very poor relationship with to come back and manage them again and any sensible person would agree with them. It is one of the tenants of any sport if the manager has lost the dressing room he has to go.

I won't go through the rest of your post as we are just going around in circles, we have seen last week that democracy in Cork is flawed, with numerous clubs views being misrepresented by their delegates, this wouldn't have come to light only for the players strike. They had to take this road as the deck was stacked against them otherwise, you seem to disagree, so again fair enough, i think you're wrong but we won't convince each other to change our views no matter how many ways we post it.

[sligeach]

I disagree it's a veto because of the circumstances but even if it is a veto on Gerald, what is your point.

My point is that Donal Og lied. Thats all.

Of course the rights and wrongs make a difference,

Not to the meaning of the word, which is all I have been arguing.

[The GAA]

Indeed you did and I remember that. But I didn't say no one made an adequate response, I said no one had explained this in relation to Donal Og's bare faced lie. Perhaps you should try that 'reading' thing too ?

And I'm surprised you feel its right to defend a bunch of players who didn't even bother trying to go about this through the proper channels. No attempt whatsoever was made to bring this to the clubs until AFTER the vote.

Your confusing my argument with your own. I am not arguing that the County Board are right, because I think it was a terrible choice to put Ger back, I am arguing that the players are wrong and they can not win this, not this way. Because if they do they are setting a precedent that will change the GAA forever and not for better.

After signing an agreement not to strike the players decided to strike, and you can call it whatever you like, its a strike. So both themselves under Donal Og's leadership anyways and the County Board have proven they are both a bunch of lying dishonest cheats.

You support the democratic process but have no problem with the players actions ? The fact they tried to force the CCB first, then tries democracy after that failed ? You are fine with that ?

Howabout the players gaining veto powers on management, your ok with that ?

You're confusing yourself. are you now saying noone made a response to your satisfaction? you didn't like the response?
what is it that noone explained to you?

So you are not saying the players are wrong to take a stance - thats progress at least. you are saying that you disagree with their methods?
I take you missed the "cloyne motion" which is now being resubmitted?
The players can win this and they will. Brennan and cooney are already drawing up draught procedures for county boards to ensure they do things properly and avoid constituant parts of a county membership having to take severe action to ensure proper procedure.

The Mulvey agreement was thrown out the window by the county executive so all avenues were open.
who are lying dishonest cheats and why?

I must not have been clear in my last post... i support democratic processes but there is no democratic process in cork. well there hasn't been but there's about to be one.

i don't know why i have to keep repeating things for you, but one last time... i have no problem with the this cork team having a veto on this manager.

[Reillers]

Well i certainly said many many pages ago (you're allowed to read as well as post on these threads) that i had no problem calling it a veto on Gerald McCarthy's management.

Indeed you did and I remember that. But I didn't say no one made an adequate response, I said no one had explained this in relation to Donal Og's bare faced lie. Perhaps you should try that 'reading' thing too ?

I'm astonished that you feel it right to defend an elected (and paid) official's right to ignore good practice, the common good and all sense to make a destructive decision - just because he can.

And I'm surprised you feel its right to defend a bunch of players who didn't even bother trying to go about this through the proper channels. No attempt whatsoever was made to bring this to the clubs until AFTER the vote.

Your confusing my argument with your own. I am not arguing that the County Board are right, because I think it was a terrible choice to put Ger back, I am arguing that the players are wrong and they can not win this, not this way. Because if they do they are setting a precedent that will change the GAA forever and not for better.

Taking up a right to not play is not blackmail no matter how much you'd like it to be. when you are in a fight you have tools at your disposal. the players have one trump card and its their participation. you believe all collective action in disputes are blackmail?

After signing an agreement not to strike the players decided to strike, and you can call it whatever you like, its a strike. So both themselves under Donal Og's leadership anyways and the County Board have proven they are both a bunch of lying dishonest cheats.

I believe in the democratic process too. what i don't believe in is an autonomous county executive ignoring the good of the county to pursue personal vendettas.

You support the democratic process but have no problem with the players actions ? The fact they tried to force the CCB first, then tries democracy after that failed ? You are fine with that ?

Howabout the players gaining veto powers on management, your ok with that ?

They don't want to veto the manager fully. It's just this manager. If the Cb really were genuine and put other names up with Gerald as well, debated them and then at the end felt that Gerald was the best option then the players would have either bitten their tounge for 2 (more then likely one year) and got on with it. But it was the way it was done.
FM on purpose reappointed Gerald the way he did to get rid of the senior players.
This is to an extent the result he wanted, the "ring leaders" gone.

Technically you are right, it is a veto, but if (and it's an extreme comparison I know) but if you kill someone in war are you a murderer? (The only example I could think of.)
You know what I mean.
Or Robin Hood. Technically he was a theif right, but..
I'm really, really trying to break it down here.

It wasn't about wanting to change the system and have a veto it was a reaction to an action from the CB.
It's a veto because of circumstance.

The rights and wrongs make the difference. You've never done something that was technically wrong for the right reasons, ever hear of ends justifying the means?

You have your views, that's fine. But you can't keep painting everything in such a black and white way, now maybe you believe that everything is that simple or you're just having a pop at Donal Og every chance you can.

The proper channels. Like what, talk to the CB, ask them nicely not to do it.
Ask the clubs to provoke a sleeping dog? Ask them to go against the CB, suffer the consequences right there and then. It wouldn't have worked.
The players did the only thing in their arsenal that has got the CB to listen in the past. They refused to play.
Nothing else works and now this time it didn't even get their attention.

Calling them lying dishonest cheats is out of line and unfair. Why are you calling them cheats?
First of all they are not striking they are refusing to play. Call it what you like that is technically what they are doing, what they have said they are doing.
The players sat in front of the press and left themselves open for any questions from any journos and answered honestly and admited when they were wrong and such and the press were very impressed.
The players then sat in front of the clubs and that could have went terribly wrong as well. They were asked questions and answered honestly and again admitted when they were wrong and such and the clubs backed the massively.
Neither the CB who, epsecially FM, would do that, have ever done that. They hide behind rule books and FM hides under a rock.
The CB broke the agreement before the players did. They did the same in 07 from the agreement in 02 which led to that strike.
And in your views, McCarthy and the CB are also dishonest lying cheats. McCarthy said he'd leave to the players if they didn't want him to come back. He didn't. He also leaked the document to the press, never denied doing so, and made things a hell of a lot worse. And the CB have broken all that over and over again.

Democracy is great when it works but it does'nt really work in the GAA and that's been proven in Cork, the majority of Cork now back the players. But because of a technicallity it doesn't matter a dalm what they think.
If you support Cork democracy you support one man in one room dictating and getting votes backing whatever he wants 88-13, 80-12, 93-4..etc.

The clubs are sick to their deaths of it. They went to the players meeting and litterally vented, chairmen and everyone there went on and on and on about the CB. Venting for ages.
They needed no provoking, nothing.  

You say you support democracy, do you call what the Cb are doing, forget the players for a minute, what they are doing with the clubs, you support that and call it democracy.

[orangeman]

It seems clear that the players want to wrest control of the running of the county team away from the county board and basically put themselves in charge for the forseeable future. Pick their own managers, selectors, etc. If successful you could see a case in a couple of years when some of the older players have retired of them playing pass the parcel with the management of the senior hurling team. Treating it as their own personal fiefdom much like Frank Murphy has with Cork GAA. Maybe they have more in common with Frank than they'd like to admit.

In the absence of any genuine concern for the football or hurling teams within the county executive, someone has to do something.

Had Mc Carthy rolled over after a few days, there wouldn't have been any meeting in Douglas, no meetings of the clubs, no 250 page thread on a board, no allegation and counter allegation, no public condemnation of Gerald, Frank, the players, no Primetime Specials etc etc.

The 2008 panel would simply have gone back and hurled away as normal under their "preferred" manager.

Simple as that. All this talk about FM, CB etc was and is purely a way of putting pressure on the board to get rid of Mc Carthy. The proposed vote of confidence is not against the CB or FM but against Gerald Mc Carthy.

[The GAA]

It seems clear that the players want to wrest control of the running of the county team away from the county board and basically put themselves in charge for the forseeable future. Pick their own managers, selectors, etc. If successful you could see a case in a couple of years when some of the older players have retired of them playing pass the parcel with the management of the senior hurling team. Treating it as their own personal fiefdom much like Frank Murphy has with Cork GAA. Maybe they have more in common with Frank than they'd like to admit.

In the absence of any genuine concern for the football or hurling teams within the county executive, someone has to do something.

Had Mc Carthy rolled over after a few days, there wouldn't have been any meeting in Douglas, no meetings of the clubs, no 250 page thread on a board, no allegation and counter allegation, no public condemnation of Gerald, Frank, the players, no Primetime Specials etc etc.

The 2008 panel would simply have gone back and hurled away as normal under their "preferred" manager.

Simple as that. All this talk about FM, CB etc was and is purely a way of putting pressure on the board to get rid of Mc Carthy. The proposed vote of confidence is not against the CB or FM but against Gerald Mc Carthy.

That summation illustrates a fundamental or willful misunderstanding of the situation in cork

[cornafean]

Technically you are right, it is a veto, but if (and it's an extreme comparison I know) but if you kill someone in war are you a murderer? (The only example I could think of.)

Sorry, I don't understand what killing, war and murder have to do with this discussion  ,unless things have taken a turn for the worse since I last tuned in