McCarthy admits he does not have backing of Cork hurlers

[Top of the hill]

Skull, was billy the kid not calling these boys that?  My point was that if people were calling Tohill or Downey a w**ker in 94, I'd be the first man trying to back them up. Likewise I'm sure, if boys were calling Antrim men w**ks, you'd be backing them up as well.

Top of the Hill, I'm sorry for doubting you, but saying as you seem to know so much about he Cork dispute, maybe you can list the pros and cons for each debate.


Again may I state that i'm not backing the players here at all.

I shouldn't even bother with a response to that comment but you would probably just think i am avoiding the issue and feel you have somehow got one up on me.

I never claimed to be an expert on the dispute. All i'm saying is that i, and others on here, have formed my own opinions based on the information i have read and heard over the last few days. If you would care to read back over this thread you will see that i have not insulted anyone or resorted to name calling or specifically singled out any cork players as being the cause of this dispute.

The whole point of this website is to allow people to debate the issues affecting the GAA and that is exactly what the majority of the posters on here have been doing. For you to say we don't know enough about it to be allowed to debate it is just patronising. But as i said before, these are my opinions, you have your opinions. We may not agree but i can live with that wiithout feeling i need tell you what debates you can or cannot contribute to.

[the green man]

Excellent, but when have I ever mentioned that you insulted anyone?

[orangeman]

What did Donal Og have to say for himself the Cork team tonight ?

[Top of the hill]

Ok, if you didn't mean me specifically then i have misunderstood you.

You referred to people name calling etc. and i was pointing out that that is something i don't get involved in.

As for Donal Og, i didn't see it but no doubt we'll hear about it all tomorrow on here.

[theskull1]

Is Reillers not a Cork man? Would he not know more about it than us?

Even if he he calls you a c**k or a p***k or a c**t. At the end of the day like, he knows more about it than you or me.

Holy Fcuk...are you sure you don't want to edit that post greenman? You are implying that there is only one position being held in Cork regading this dispute and that Reillers is simply voicing it to the rest of us on behalf of the Cork people. Come on te fcuk 

If you were prepared to learn a bit more then you'd realise that this is not the case. I took this from the AFR website and this is very much the sentiment of the cork men who use that forum

Originally posted by a langer boy:
Well done Gerald boy! You have called it as you saw it! The players are great lads when they are attacking people characters through their cheerleaders in the media  ( who incidentally should be asked to cover schools GAA or something for the present )  as they are not neutral in all of this and have made a major contribution to the bad blood in Cork among the hurling family! The players dont like it though when a response is made.

What are Gah and DogC doing on the box?, giving out but now calling on all sides to pull back! They should grow up and shut up! If they have coaching problems discuss them with their manager like men!

Gerald is a fine guy and is not for turning. lets hope the CCB now back him completely and dont drop  him like Teddy last year.

Great to hear also of hurling schools of excellence and new coaches in Cork.....music to my ears but why o why hasnt this been considered for the past 20 years by the CCB?

Gerald boy, keep talking, and making demands you might yet get a proper underage coaching structure put in place in Cork yet, just demand it of the CCB.

Losing Bertie Og was a disaster, losing Teddy Holland  was bad but if they lose Gerald, the fat lady will have sung the final notes around the caverns of PUChaoimh.

Fair bowl to you boy!

Excellent, but when have I ever mentioned that you insulted anyone?

Wasn't the main thrust of your argument GM. You wanted those of us not from Cork to wind our necks in. Was it not. Do you still think we all should?

[the green man]

And are you not implying that 'langer boy' is the only man posting for your side?

FFS Skull, I've already said that i'm in no favour of the players. I'm just saying that WE know didly squat about what is going on down there.

[theskull1]

And are you not implying that 'langer boy' is the only man posting for your side?

I don't think so ...

If you were prepared to learn a bit more then you'd realise that this is not the case. I took this from the AFR website and this is very much the sentiment of the cork men who use that forum

FFS Skull, I've already said that i'm in no favour of the players. I'm just saying that WE know didly squat about what is going on down there.

Come on green man. How can you say in one scentence that you are not in favour of the players, then in the next tell every body who is not Reillers/Zulu or "The_GAA" that we should not voice our opinions on what is happening in Cork at the minute. If there was a wider spectrum of opinion on this forum from Cork contributers as there is on others I could maybe see your point but since we don't we have every right to take part in a debate with them. Is that perspective lost on you?

[the green man]

Skull, I'm only surmising here. I can only call on our strike of 94 to compare and contrast. Thats the thing that is getting to me. Not you per se, but other Derry men, who are acting, some what as Judge, jury, and executioner, when we, as a county have gone through the same thing.

You can have your opinion. I'm not disagreeing with that. You can discuss the topic. I'm not disagreeing with that. All I'm asking is that you keep an open mind of the outcome. Who's right, who's wrong? I dont think that its up to us non Corkonians to decide.

[theskull1]

Back to what I said earlier. Do you believe that there is "a black and white truth" in the Derry strike in 94? A truth which is now agreed by all the parties involved? 

I wouldn't think so.

I have heard enough (whilst always trying to keep an open mind) to feel the way I do about the militants within the panel. There will be no such thing as who's completely right and who's completely wrong in all of this therefore such a decision will never need to be made be me or a langer

[orangeman]

I think we all know something about the Cork situation to be fair Green man -

[Zulu]

CORK HURLING : Tom Humphries on how an abject failure of administration has resulted in Cork hurlers being pitted against a revered icon of the national game

THE HURLERS of Cork are in trouble. Caught between the rock of their county board and the hardening face of Gerald McCarthy, their handling of the latest convulsion down south hasn't been as sure-footed as it needed to be.

They find themselves two points down with not long to play. Somehow, they have been waltzed into a situation where they are seen to be fighting a genuine icon of the game rather than a faceless but bitterly resilient administration. And their foe is nimble as well as beloved.

Gerald McCarthy has learned well from the debilitating vow of silence which Teddy Holland took while the last tempest broke over his head. Compared to the badly worded but overly-wordy statement which the players released during the week (in another PR mistake, to just one newspaper) McCarthy's two statements so far have been swift in dealing with the issues and have aimed their arrows well in terms of the mood of the general public.

If Gerald McCarthy or the Cork County Board (who also issued a statement yesterday to the same circulation list) are intent on breaking the as yet fissureless unity of the Cork players they are going the right way about it, reaching out the hand to encourage those who just want to play for Cork to go ahead and stand up for their right to do just that.

The trouble is, say the players, that is what they have been doing for the past two years. Just playing for Cork. When you get over the novelty of being clad in a red jersey and being recognised you want to be winning for Cork. The current spat, they say, isn't about playing for Cork. It is about winning for Cork.

Speaking after yesterday's annual general meeting of the GPA in City West, a venue where they received welcome support for their stance, three of the players, Donal Óg Cusack, Ben O'Connor and Shane O'Neill, sought to clarify a position which they appreciate very few have had the patience to unravel.

O'Connor pointed out the perception of the Cork hurlers as a ceaselessly agitating collective of Bolsheviks and pot-stirrers is a little unfair.

"Last year there was involvement from the hurlers in terms of the footballers' dispute. They had supported us in 2002 and we saw an overlap of interests and felt we owed them our support. Apart from that, everybody appreciates what we stood up for in 2002 and since then we have had six years where there has been no hurling-related issue brought before the public."

It is a reasonable point to make through the acrid smoke of a public relations war. Nobody doubts the players had something to complain about in 2002. The support for them back then was broad and generous. In the six years since then they have worked under three managers, delivered considerable success and, whether naively or otherwise, entered into the current imbroglio in good faith.

"People have talked about us escalating things or being inclined towards conflict," said O'Neill "but things like the release of the Cathal O'Reilly report will tell people a lot about how hard it would be to go back now."

The release of the O'Reilly exercise, a gathering of views wherein players were asked to write (strictly positively) about each other and their manager was a breach of faith which has been justified in the context of the criticisms which were being made of Gerald McCarthy in the first place.

The subsequent tit-for-tat of accusation and riposte has tended to obscure the key point, however. Things were so bad last season between Gerald McCarthy and his players that a facilitator was needed to get both parties through to the end of the season.

That, the players point out is the almost Kafkaesque absurdity of the situation they now find themselves in. Having accepted an appointment which they were initially sceptical about after the departure of John Allen; having got through two years with several meetings and consultations about coaching styles and having needed, in the latter part of those years, a facilitator to get them through the season, the players entered into a process of managerial selection in good faith.

"At the start," says Cusack, "at the first meeting it wasn't known if Gerald McCarthy was interested. It was felt with the way the two years had ended that he maybe wasn't. So that meeting broke up till it could be discovered, out of respect for Gerald, if his name was going to be part of the process."

A second meeting saw McCarthy's name on the table and failed attempts to force a vote there and then. A third meeting went the same way. The players' reps were consulting among the panel and coming back with feedback which they say was unanimous. The players wanted a change.

A fourth meeting dissolved into a long debate about the entire process. The fifth and final meeting went a similar way but had a vote forced at the end of it. McCarthy was reappointed as Cork hurling manager.

The players pointed out yesterday and in their statement that alternative names had been raised by Seán Óg Ó hAilpín at an early meeting which he attended as proxy for John Gardiner. None of these were considered or pursued.

"In the end the board put us together again with a manager that they knew we had needed a facilitator to work with during the championship season," says Cusack. "They forced us back together with a guy that they knew players had great difficulties working with. That's the incredible thing here.

"That is not a process. Is there any county board in the country who would force two sides back together again after all that?"

In his own statement yesterday Gerald McCarthy suggests the difficulties between himself and his players which have now become public came as a surprise to him.

"From the time of Cork's last game against Kilkenny, no player ever approached me to discuss my coaching. At no time during the period of the meetings on the appointment of the manager, did any player or player representative come to me to talk about issues with my coaching. Yet when I was appointed, I was asked to stand down. I am not going to do that."

The players point out however that the use of a facilitator, Cathal O'Reilly, (something which they willingly concede Gerald McCarthy was open to) was not the first sign of trouble at sea. It is well known players had their misgivings about McCarthy's appointment initially, particularly as the county board had appeared to ride roughshod over the claims of just about anybody the team were known to favour for the job.

There was concern in McCarthy's first year about the style and content of his coaching. A perceived obsession with practising overhead pulling in training (goalkeepers and corner backs included) wasn't helped by an inability to relate to the tenor and length of many of the new manager's pre-match speeches.

They muddled through though, accepting changes. The players concede too that, on the several occasions when problems were pointed out, McCarthy took matters on board and things would get better. The sudden deterioration in relations should not disguise the respect which grew between both parties during their time together.

" It was known that we had problems at times with Gerald and that we would have been sceptical of his appointment at first. We went with it, though," added Cusack. "We could have gone to Gerald at any time during the five-meeting process but all the time we genuinely thought that those meetings were part of a process which might lead somewhere. We didn't want to sabotage the process.

"Now we have reached a situation where Gerald's reappointment has been rammed home and even though a significant number of players have gone along personally to Gerald and said that they didn't think that things were working as well as they should, we are still being forced into that relationship."

Again and again the players point out this current strike isn't the result of some type of seasonal affective disorder or love for the smell of napalm.

The difficulties were sign- posted all along the way. At the end of last year, for instance, at a meeting among the hurlers to discuss their position vis-a-vis the footballers, it is recalled that 90 per cent of the meeting was taken up with the question as to whether the hurlers should move at that time for a change of management themselves.

"It's ironic," said Ben O'Connor yesterday, "but the fellas who would be perceived as the troublemakers now would be the same guys who would have argued at that time for the situation to be left be. It was felt there was another year. We would work with it as best we could."

That year has come and is almost gone. The Cork hurlers submitted a couple of performances for the ages this year and must have come away thinking they could smell paradise in the distance. Their manager and themselves have different ideas about why paradise was lost in the first place and how it might be regained.

The Cork County Board, meanwhile, dissembles surprise at the current troubles and backs McCarthy to the hilt in the hope that if he takes three or four senior players down with him when he goes the trouble will have been worth it.

McCarthy, a genuine icon of the game whose dignity and pride have been affronted, digs in for the long war. The public announce the same war to be a ratings turn-off. The players are in a lonely and desolate spot. Seán Óg is in America and Donal Óg heads to Zambia to do aid work on Monday.

In the end the players will suffer. The Cork County Board, living through its third outbreak of industrial relations strife in six years and having allowed hostilities to accelerate from zero to 60 in such a short space of time, ostentatiously washes its hands of any involvement.

The hurlers of Cork are in trouble. The proposed charity game to mark an anniversary in St Colman's is unlikely to proceed in a fortnight's time - at least not with a Cork senior team featuring. The Cork public grow increasingly impatient and unwilling to read the small print.

Gerald McCarthy has failings, so too do the Cork players. The ultimate failure here, though, is one of administration. Everything that was won in 2002 was won for hurling's future and not for players.That all seems like a distant and more obscure time however.

Full statement issued yesterday by Cork hurling manager Gerald McCarthy

FOR those not directly involved, and for many of us who are, this is becoming a huge bore. I have been asked by various media to comment on the Cork players' statement.

At this point, I have no intention of doing so, other than to say that each of the points raised by the players can be fully challenged by me. But in an attempt to end, for the moment, media calls to me and disruption to my life and business, I will respond in this way.

The tone of the players' statement says it all, really. The County Board is wrong, Gerald McCarthy is wrong but the players are never wrong. They have no responsibilities in all of this. This is just rubbish.

It would be helpful if those players who are driving this issue were honest enough to acknowledge that the first time this appeared in the media arose when players anonymously fed misinformation directed against me to a number of journalists.

That behaviour is fine, apparently. Yet when I defend myself in the media, this small group of players cries foul.

That speaks volumes. If I am attacked as a person or as a coach, I will defend myself. If there was a difficulty with coaching then it should have been dealt with as a coaching issue. The players themselves will acknowledge that I am quite open to talk about coaching methods.

From the time of Cork's last game against Kilkenny, no player ever approached me to discuss my coaching. At no time during the period of the meetings on the appointment of the manager, did any player or player representative come to me to talk about issues with my coaching. Yet when I was appointed, I was asked to stand down. I am not going to do that.

The great pity of all of this is that a number of interesting coaching team appointments which were to be announced by me are now on hold. Also, proposals that I wished to submit to the Cork County Board on the establishment of an academy, a centre of excellence, to radically transform coaching in Cork, to address the challenges we now have as a hurling power, to stop the attrition of talented young players, to support the clubs and to create a community of hurlers between young and former players, are now also on hold.

There is a really exciting time ahead for young Cork players, I am full of admiration for those who had the courage to speak up for their right to play for Cork at recent players' meetings and I hope they stick with it.

So much of my time - hurling time - for the past few years, has been devoted to "conflict resolution". The players have to take responsibility for their role in this and it can't go on.

They really should stop portraying themselves as victims of some grand conspiracy against them and get back to playing hurling for Cork.

My door is always open to achieve that result.

Full statement issued yesterday by County Board Chairman Michael Dolan

As chairman of Cork County Board, I am desperately sad to see Cork hurling in the news for all the wrong reasons, once again.

The knee-jerk criticisms of the county board are neither justified nor fair. The board entered into a process to select the manager of the county team in good faith, under terms agreed during the last "crisis".

I am satisfied that we carried out our part of that bargain properly and in recommending Gerald McCarthy, after five meetings, we were putting our faith in a man who not only was one of Cork's finest players ever, but someone who is knowledgeable, determined and aware of the challenges to be faced.

The players now seem to be asking us to overturn the outcome of a process that they agreed to participate in. It's a pity that the players go for broke in situations like this and demand a head or else threaten to walk away from playing for Cork.

It is not the way to do business and only makes a solution to these difficulties all the more difficult to achieve. Coaching issues, if they exist, should be dealt with in a coaching context.

© 2008 The Irish Times

This article appears in the print edition of the Irish Times

[orangeman]

And OM if I've to say it one more time..mother of God like, IT'S NOT ABOUT KILKENNY..IT'S NOT EVEN REALLY ABOUT GERALD MAC..IT IS ABOUT THE BOARD.

How many more ways to I've to break it down before you understand that..finger puppets next time I think, maybe then it'll sink in.




Looks like Tom is way off the mark - it's NOT ABOUT GERALD MC CARTHY - IT'S ABOUT THE BOARD !

[orangeman]

And their foe is nimble as well as beloved



It's not about Mc Carthy - it's about Frank apparently !


I wish they'd make up their minds !

[orangeman]

Headlines in today's Independent :


DONAL OG CUSACK :

" IT'S OBVIOUS THAT THE CORK COUNTY BOARD WANT TO GET RID OF US !"


Paranoia has well and truly set in ( maybe on all sides ).

[theskull1]

Has anyone else ever heard of a group of players and a manager needing a facilitator to communicate between the two sides in the middle of the season

Quite unbelieveable. The players must be a real nightmare